Lair

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

Yup, it's out. I thought it was coming out Sept 5, but I kept seeing a Aug 30 date on Gamestop. Well, I got a call from the Gamestop Robot saying that the game was in stock. Gamestop ended up being the 3rd store I went to get it. I prefer Best Buy and Circuit City, but they didn't have it yet. Apparently, Sony gave GS the ok to sell it early, though with this store, they rarely get in copies of games to sell to walk-ins (one reason why they suck).

About the game: I only played the training and first mission (prologue), but I got a nice feel for the controls. So far, I haven't had a lot of problems controlling the dragon. The training had the dragon flying through loops (just like in Super Man 64), but there's no real combat until the first mission. It feels like the game has auto-lock for the ranged attack, which is easy to pull off as long as you are near an enemy. I'm not sure what will happen if I try to fly into a mountain, ocean, or castle yet. Also, I haven't had any ground combat yet, so I can't comment on that part of the game. Oh, yeah, the game looks great.

I'll have to play more to give a better impression. I thought this would be in demo form on PSN today.

I'll probably be the only one here who will have this, but oh well.

[Fivespot]

Speaking of the Gamestop robot (nicely put by the way) I had a chance to work with that woman who provides the voice talent and had a great time with that. She read whatever script I would write and I so desperately wanted to have her do some funny takes on those silly Gamestop calls but she was so professional in her work that I don't think she appreciated my request. :blush2:

Still, thought I'd share as no one else in my company had any clue who she was and what I was talking about.

On a related note, my wife calls her my girlfriend. I think her name is Aris [sp]; the character not the person.

[Fivespot]

Holy smokes IGN gave Lair a 4.9 poor. Yikes.

[ilnadmy]

Damn, just read the review and the guy is saying that, basically, this game is so painful to play that you would be better served by "swallowing the business end of a shotgun". Ouch.

[Anubis]

dragon games always suck... they never get em right. guess they can't find an iguana or something to mo-cap lol

[Cuddly Knife]

Have you ever seen a dragon fly, Anoobis? I didn't think so.
Well, maybe in the "mystical" land of Bahrain.
lol

I'd like to hear some impressions from the non-biased VGR members, since the reviews for this game seem to be all over the place. I have been bouncing on and off the fence because I really don't like the idea of total motion-sensing control, especially since most of the reviews, good or bad, seem to think that it's not as good as it should be.

[Gadfly2317]

Game Informer gave the game an 8, but ripped on the controls. I wish they'd have just gone with standard control if they couldn't get tilt right. I wish Sony's "motion" control worked, but it really does seem like a tacked on after thought "me too!!!" after they saw the kind of buzz Wii (Revolution at the time) was getting, and how Nintendo had been right with the DS. Damn Sony and their constant "follower" status this gen!

I got the Robot Call from Gamestop yesterday but just didn't end up having time to go get it. I'm going to play it, but I hope that all the time I've put in with motion control Ps3 games like Flow and Super Rub a Dub give me a foot up on the controls, because if it sucks as bad as some reviewers say, it'll probably kill the game for me.

[Cuddly Knife]

Nintendo coulda made it work...

[Gadfly2317]

Nintendo coulda made it work...

I can fully envision the control system for this game with the Wii controller. The Ps3 "motion control" is nothing more advanced than the little gyroscope in the Warioware Twisted GBA cartridge.

They HAD to try to stick with motion control or end up with egg on their face, because it would have been to truly concede that PS3's motion control is so rudimentary that yes, it functions well for stuff like Flow and Rubber Duckies in the Bathtub game, but . . .

After being out nearly a year, this month was the month--finally-- for Nintendo to step up and show that its control done right could perfect the FPS experience. And they succeeded.

And it was Ps3's chance to show its control worked, and it just doesn't, so it seems.

[Cuddly Knife]

They HAD to try to stick with motion control or end up with egg on their face, because it would have been to truly concede that PS3's motion control is so rudimentary that yes, it functions well for stuff like Flow and Rubber Duckies in the Bathtub game, but . . .

True that, but the game would not have been judged as harshly if they had also given the option for analog control. Then, people would say that even though the motion-control was broke, it was still fully playable(and probably better appreciated) with the sticks, thus allowing for a higher final review score. At least then the shoddy motion control could've been forgotten.

[ilnadmy]

Oh sheez it doesn't have an option to use the analog sticks? Now that sucks. I thought it did.

Warhawk actually surprised me, I wasn't even mildly interested in this game, but the reviews are coming out nicely, and I watched some videos on Gametrailers yesterday and the dogfights and ground battles seem like a lot of fun. I might check this one out eventually.

[folken001]

I played Lair briefly today. I thought the control was decent. I mean, it's not easy but it's not hard. I guess i'll have to read the review to get what they are talking about. While Lair isn't the best game for PS3, it definitely doesn't feel like a 4/10 game. That's just my opinion.


I got warhawk today btw. Bring it on!!

[ilnadmy]

How are you finding Warhawk Folken? The game intrigues me.

[folken001]

How are you finding Warhawk Folken? The game intrigues me.
don't know, going to play it in 30 mins!

I got the last copy. The clerk told me that it's selling pretty well.

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

My local Best Buy has overstocked on Warhawk. They have at least ten more copies in store, according to yesterday.

The biggest test for me and Lair is when I jump on the game a 2nd time. If I enjoy the game at least as much as I did the first time, then I'll be satisfied with the game.

[Cuddly Knife]

Gamespot gave it a 4.5.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/action/lair/review.html?sid=6178017&tag=topslot;title;1&om_act=convert&om_clk=topslot

Damn. Here's the first paragraph from the review:

"You shouldn't play Lair. Not unless you have some morbid interest in experiencing what is quite possibly one of the worst control schemes ever devised. It's a shame because as a cinematic experience, it's stunning to watch. As a game, it's a nightmare and an embarrassment. It sounds like a fantastic idea: You fly around on a dragon, spewing fire and clawing at other reptiles while generally wreaking havoc. Too bad you're forced to use Sixaxis controls that destroy the possibility of fun and replace it with the constant need to scream expletives at your television screen."

[Slashes-With-Claws]

Note: For any examples I give I try to be as vague and general as possible about plot to avoid spoilers.

I played Lair for six hours last night. I did all of the tutorials, after the first mission you can go back to the tutorial section and do twelve tutorials on everything from flight training(flying through ring mazes), to combat both in the air and on the ground. I got a long way into the game, no idea what percentage though. The main thing about the controls is that they are new and different. On the first couple of missions I found them hard, but as the game went along and I got the hang of them I found them to be very smooth; the controls are so smooth in fact that the precision is far better than that of a stick. A few moves, such as the 180, I found a little difficult to execute, until I realized I was doing it wrong, now it works most of the time but I still screw it up once in a while. You can make your dragon fly faster by mashing X, which makes you, the pilot, smack the dragon’s neck with some sort of little whip or something and it flaps its wings hard as long as you keep whipping it. It still flies at a good speed even when not being whipped. Pressing both L2 and R2 makes the dragon slow down, holding them makes it hover or land. The dragon can only hover for a little while before it gets tired of the hard flapping and starts flying forward again. You cannot crash your dragon; the dragon has self-preservation and will pull up or stop and hover if you are about to impact something.

The aim assist has a very long range; even if you do not see the white haze that indicates your target often you can still hit it. I noticed that the fireballs have a slight homing ability, probably added to make it a little easier to hit air targets. Fireballs can be used on ground enemies as well as air enemies, if it hits in a group of troops it will send some flying through the air. The aim assist is also not annoying, it is not a full lock on and does not pull your controls. However, by hitting either L1 or R1 you can do a full lock and have your dragon automatically keep its head facing the target and keep you circling it. Oh, and the aim assist does prioritize targets, so that it will target a huge war beast and not the little tiny soldier next to it.

Ground combat is a lot of fun. You can claw, flame, bite, eat, and pound enemy soldiers. It is easier to kill enemy soldier from the ground than the air, though you can still dive bomb them with your flame or even swoop down, grab one, and eat it as you are flying to restore some health; human meat contains all the nutrients a growing dragon needs. :p Whenever you do a move that kills a whole lot of enemy soldiers at once, like take a swipe with your claws and send six flying, it does a slow motion for a moment; their swords go flying from their hands, blood splatters, and they scream as they go flying through the air. Sometimes it seems that their archers are not paying attention to me, but I am not sure if it is because they are shooting their arrows at my soldiers or if it is because it is doing a BF1942; that is where the AI decides to stand around admiring the ceiling/sky texture.

The battles are huge. The previews that say there are thousands of enemies on the screen at once time are not exaggerated at all. On mission has you defeating 2,500 enemy soldiers as one of the objectives. After killing the 2,500 in a fairly short time (your army helps too) I noticed that there were still thousands out there. In the same battle when you first start you can see how epic it is. You fly over your lines of catapults, archers, and foot soldiers followed by the enemy lines of archers and soldiers. And the whole time you can see arrows, rocks, fireballs, and all kinds of other projectiles flying around. And, not only this, but both sides had about fifty dragons each flying around and blowing flame. Enemy dragons can do some of the moves you can as well, especially later on when they get tougher. In the last level my dragon came under close combat by enemy dragons about six times; they dive at me, rake my dragon with their claws, and then we get into a bit of Mortal Kombat! You can bite, claw, and flame enemy dragons as well as do combo and takedown moves. Most enemy dragons that I fight I usually kill at range with a fireball and never get into close combat.

There are a few annoyances, such as your commander constantly reminding you of your objective(s). A good example of this is a mission where you are defending your army from an attacking army. At one point they are reminding me every few moments, “Take out those war beasts!”, “Our army needs air support!”, “The enemy navy is bombarding our army!” Also, sometimes it zips the camera over there for a moment to point it out to you. It seems like a lot to keep up with, but if you keep a cool head, prioritize your objectives, and deal with one thing at a time you can get through it. A quest compass helps keep you in the general area.

Overall the game is similar in many ways to Battle Engine: Aquila, but on a much bigger scale. If my hands were not jittery from mowing the lawn, darn overly vibrating weed whacker, I would be playing it now. The game is much better than the 5.5/10 that EGM gave it and IGN’s 4.5/10 is completely silly. The game is not a 10/10 either, there are minor flaws, as I mentioned above, and the gameplay style limits the variability of objectives so there is a lot of repetition (Destroy enemy catapults, kill enemy units, protect friendly units, etc). Once I finish it and see how long the game is I will have my final score, but I am leaning towards somewhere in the 8/10 range, though, some of these later missions are becoming so big and complex, giving you so much to do and so much action that I may go higher.

[slade]

Funny thing about all the control complaints is that as soon as you plug in a controller that doesn't have any motion capabilities, the controls default to the twin sticks.

[Gadfly2317]

Funny thing about all the control complaints is that as soon as you plug in a controller that doesn't have any motion capabilities, the controls default to the twin sticks.

Have you heard how that works? Is it better?

I have been fence sitting on picking up this game. Gamespot's review says its so bad no one should play it, where as Game Informer gives it an 8, says the controls aren't perfect but that its a damn good game. PLay raves, some other sites have been ho-hum. Some people say the controls are worthless, others say they have had no problem getting used to them after some practice.

SO WHICH IS IT???? I guess I just need to get down to the store and find out for myself.

[Cuddly Knife]

Have you heard how that works? Is it better?

I have been fence sitting on picking up this game. Gamespot's review says its so bad no one should play it, where as Game Informer gives it an 8, says the controls aren't perfect but that its a damn good game. PLay raves, some other sites have been ho-hum. Some people say the controls are worthless, others say they have had no problem getting used to them after some practice.

SO WHICH IS IT???? I guess I just need to get down to the store and find out for myself.
I'm in the exact same spot. Maybe if I had bought into the hype early on, I would pick it up no questions asked, but since I was never that "into" the game, that's why I'm so unsure if I want it or not. Seeing how I'm not a fan of what the Six-Axis has shown so far, I am leaning more towards not getting the game than getting it.

And slade, what kinds of controllers work on the PS3 that aren't Six-Axis? If that control method works nicely, then I would pick up the game for sures.

[Gamer88]

I'm in the exact same spot. Maybe if I had bought into the hype early on, I would pick it up no questions asked, but since I was never that "into" the game, that's why I'm so unsure if I want it or not. Seeing how I'm not a fan of what the Six-Axis has shown so far, I am leaning more towards not getting the game than getting it.

And slade, what kinds of controllers work on the PS3 that aren't Six-Axis? If that control method works nicely, then I would pick up the game for sures.

Any third party controller for the PS3 lacks SixAxis (at least mine does, but im pretty sure all of them do) and thus would default to analog for controls. I officially have completely lost all trust in professional reviews after just watching someone play this game.

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

SO WHICH IS IT???? I guess I just need to get down to the store and find out for myself.

If there's a local EB/Gamestop or Mom and Pop's store that will pop in Lair for you to try out, that would be best. I don't know if a few minutes with the game will help your decision, though, but it's better than going by reviewers opinions alone.

I just finished the 2nd mission (not counting the training, which I have done a lot of). Not bad, but I hope future missions don't have the "beat the guys before they destroy this or that" kind of objectives. For me to truly enjoy the game (and its controls), I need to go at my own pace instead of feeling rushed to finish a mission.

Sony really should have put a demo out. Out of all their games this year, Lair is the one where people needed to get a feel for the game before its release.

[Gadfly2317]

I really do believe the time I put in with six-axis games like Super Rub a Dub and Flow made all the difference for how easy it was for me to control my dragon in Lair. I remember that flOw was a little frustrating for me at first, and that is a 2-d, utterly simplistic game.

I've only put in about 45 minutes in Lair--I'm focused on Metroid Corruption and Jeanne D'arc right now--but the first few levels gave me very few problems. The control was not a problem--the very first level "fly through the rings" I didn't miss any.

Initial flaws I noticed are mostly that its sometimes hard to tell who the enemy is, and the mission arrow seems a little weird. But then, I've always had occasional problem telling friend from foe in games like Crimson Skies, and even Rogue Squadron sometimes where I should know the ship types by heart from the movies.

Also, it is not a simplistic game, and there's a learning curve for some of the other maneavuers and button combos. I hadn't expected button combos like Gow/Ninja Gaiden/DMC and those type of games.

If there are also flaws later like repetitive missions or other things, I guess I'll find out. But I'm highly relieved, at least, to find out the flying is a smooth and precise experience. It makes me wonder if reviewers (who certainly must put in long abusive hours with their controllers) unknowingly had buggy, malfuntioning or poorly calibrated six-axis controllers. There's gotta be something behind a couple places giving the game TERRIBLE scores like the 4.5 at Gamespot. They called it "unplayable" and it simply isn't. Its kinder to think they had a messed up controller than to believe a gamer could be so set in his ways (with thumbsticks) that he would be unable to learn a new control.

Seriously. The six-axis control is a breeze, but again, I put in a lot of time on a precise, tilting puzzle game with the rubber-ducky bathtub mazes.

[T.Tashi]

Note: For any examples I give I try to be as vague and general as possible about plot to avoid spoilers...

Damn, that makes me really wanna play it. This and Gad's synopsis makes you really wonder what's going on with some of these reviews. Thank goodness you guys are able to give some alternative viewpoints.

[Cuddly Knife]

Here you all go. This video proves what needed to be proved. And that's that the control for Lair isn't as busted as the negative reviews are saying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxPKXfRRNAY

[folken001]

That's pretty much what happened when I played Lair. I thought it was natural to control like that, I guess some people tend to jiggle a lot or w/e.

This does shows just how much time developers spend with a game before they write their reviews. They were the only ones who played the game before it came out. Now that it's out and this guy just showed how control isn't really defective. It flushes down just about every creditability these critics have.

[Slashes-With-Claws]

Here you all go. This video proves what needed to be proved. And that's that the control for Lair isn't as busted as the negative reviews are saying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxPKXfRRNAY

That video is exactly right; be smooth and relaxed with the controls and the game will control smoothly.

I beat Lair over the weekend, it is on the short side, and for me that is the biggest complaint.

[T.Tashi]

Apparently what you can do is take your PSP and hook it up using remote play, then use the PSP's controls to play Lair. It will play the game at full speed and the graphics will be just as sweet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mASdFCTNA7I&eurl=

[Gadfly2317]

It flushes down just about every creditability these critics have.

One review I was reading was talking about how the guy missed his target, and how hard of a time he had getting back to the target because of the Dragon's 180 degree turning radius.

First thing I thought was, hasn't this reviewer ever playeda flight game or a flight sim, or even freaking Pilot Wings? I can't remember how many times I've missed a runway lineup, and had to circle wide to line up.

But the thing with targeting something you've missed, it's not the same as lining up a runway landing. This dumbass reviewer is complaining about the 180 degree turn radius, but that's not how you turn to attack a target. If you miss your target, gain a little altitude as you fly passed, and then when you turn back on your target, you do so in a spiralling downward turn, which is much much sharper than trying to turn on a flat 180 degree horizontal plane. 180 degree horizontal plane is obviously going to be hard to get back to the target you missed, while turning and spiralling downard is quick and sharp.

These reviewers are goddamned retards is all I can say. Not only can't they figure out the control, the things they are complaining about make them sound like amateurs who've never flown anything in a game before. I mean, take away motion control and put it on thumbsticks, the guy who complained about the dragon's turn radius would have had the same problem because he wasn't doing it right.

[Slashes-With-Claws]

One review I was reading was talking about how the guy missed his target, and how hard of a time he had getting back to the target because of the Dragon's 180 degree turning radius.

First thing I thought was, hasn't this reviewer ever playeda flight game or a flight sim, or even freaking Pilot Wings? I can't remember how many times I've missed a runway lineup, and had to circle wide to line up.

But the thing with targeting something you've missed, it's not the same as lining up a runway landing. This dumbass reviewer is complaining about the 180 degree turn radius, but that's not how you turn to attack a target. If you miss your target, gain a little altitude as you fly passed, and then when you turn back on your target, you do so in a spiralling downward turn, which is much much sharper than trying to turn on a flat 180 degree horizontal plane. 180 degree horizontal plane is obviously going to be hard to get back to the target you missed, while turning and spiralling downard is quick and sharp.

These reviewers are goddamned retards is all I can say. Not only can't they figure out the control, the things they are complaining about make them sound like amateurs who've never flown anything in a game before. I mean, take away motion control and put it on thumbsticks, the guy who complained about the dragon's turn radius would have had the same problem because he wasn't doing it right.
You can also just flip the controller up and slightly back to do an instant one-eighty.

I would shoot as long as I could, maybe slowing a little, then power past and once I was a ways past do the one-eighty move and make another run at the target.

[folken001]

One review I was reading was talking about how the guy missed his target, and how hard of a time he had getting back to the target because of the Dragon's 180 degree turning radius.

First thing I thought was, hasn't this reviewer ever playeda flight game or a flight sim, or even freaking Pilot Wings? I can't remember how many times I've missed a runway lineup, and had to circle wide to line up.

But the thing with targeting something you've missed, it's not the same as lining up a runway landing. This dumbass reviewer is complaining about the 180 degree turn radius, but that's not how you turn to attack a target. If you miss your target, gain a little altitude as you fly passed, and then when you turn back on your target, you do so in a spiralling downward turn, which is much much sharper than trying to turn on a flat 180 degree horizontal plane. 180 degree horizontal plane is obviously going to be hard to get back to the target you missed, while turning and spiralling downard is quick and sharp.

These reviewers are goddamned retards is all I can say. Not only can't they figure out the control, the things they are complaining about make them sound like amateurs who've never flown anything in a game before. I mean, take away motion control and put it on thumbsticks, the guy who complained about the dragon's turn radius would have had the same problem because he wasn't doing it right.
All I can say is that anyone with a college degree can do the job those reviewers do everyday. What makes them the authority of the subject is unknown to me. I don't think they play games more than some of us. They obviously aren't involve in any game developments. It's sad to see people use their opinion to a degree that it breaks or makes a game.