Hardcore?

[Ludicrum]

The term "hardcore gamer" has to be one of the most overused, and misused, terms in the video gaming dictionary. We have kiddies who think the Final Fantasy series started with part 7 calling themselves "hardcore" while they troll forums telling everyone why their console of choice sucks. It almost seems as if anyone who owns a console and buys more than 3 games for it suddenly fancies himself as a "hardcore" gamer.

But this observation begs the question: what DOES make someone hardcore? Is a hardcore gamer the person who lives on internet forums, evangelizing the merits of his console of choice and bashing others until he gets carpel tunnel? Is it the person who screams obscenities over Xbox Live as he pulls off headshots with his trusty sniper rifle? Is it the kid who talks in le3t, cuz he b havin teh le3t skilz at Halo 2 yo?

Perhaps it's someone who's been around the block? I personally have been gaming for about 20 years. My first console was an Atari 2600. I know what the Konami code is because I've used it a million times. I know that online gaming existed before Xbox Live because I've played online with my 28.8 bps modem way back when. But does that make me hardcore, or just old school?

Admittedly I do not play video games now as much as I did 10 years ago, but does that make me less "hardcore" than the person who spends 8 hours a day on Xbox Live practicing his curb stomp in Gears of War? Is "hardcore" status merely the measure of hours played, bosses killed, and people fragged? Is it characterized by how obnoxious you can be in online games and forums, or whether or not you can argue a console fanboy under the table?

I seem to be somewhat of an anomaly. I live, eat, breath, and sleep video games, and yet I don't spend 8 hours a day playing them. I do things other than play video games. I own an Xbox 360, but my xbox live account sits unused, except when I want to download a free demo or extra (offline) game content. Frankly, I feel online multi-player is an overrated feature and I resent the emerging trend of including single-player campaigns as little more than glorified tutorials for the online play.

I think all gaming platforms have merit, I don't feel required to insult, "smack talk", or otherwise disrespect my fellow gamers, I don't care if I'm at the top of the leader board or not, and I think "pwn" is the most retarded slang term ever conceived in the history of all mankind. I can only wonder which group of 9 year-olds riding the short bus to school thought it up.

If immature behavior, an obsession with online deathmatches, and le3t sp3ak are the trappings of hardcore gamers, then I don't want to be identified with that group. But surely knowing why Square Enix (back when they were called Square Co) named their game "final" fantasy, and what racing game they made before it (without needing to look it up on wikipedia), should count for something.

Thoughts?

[Mochan]

My defintion of hardcore is similar to yours, basically it's someone who's played enough long enough to have been able to form respectable opinions about what he's doing. Your definition is more like "old school" (I tend to avoid that term because it connotes being trapped in the past rather than living the present), I think mine though is more on the lines of "connossieur."

But man what a way to do your first post, welcome but did you perchance have a bad run with some hardcore gamer on GameFAQs?!

[Ludicrum]

I didn't mean to make myself sound like an old-timer longing for his glory days. lol.

My definition of hardcore is basically someone who has a great love for the industry, reads about it, appreciates its history and its value as an art form. Such a person could be in his 30s, or he could be 15. He doesn't have to have lived during the NES generation. I also wanted to stress that being a gamer is more than just putting on an Xbox live Headset and screaming things at people that would make a prostitute blush.

And yeah, I've had a pretty bad run on several different websites. One thing that really stood out on this forum was how articulate the majority of the posts are. After hearing "Xbox sux ps3 RULZ!" for the umpteenth time, this place is quite refreshing.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

We have had this debate for on this site. My definition of hardcore is much different. I consider hardcore gamers to be the guys who play the most sophisticated games and push gaming to new levels.

So back in the day the hardcore gamer were PC gamers with their 3dFX cards pushing 3d graphics and online gaming. The guys who pushed online FPS and MMORPG and early gamer who played Diablo and Warcraft all day. Also gamers who played the hardcore flight sims, racing sims. I think the gaming market was responsible for this definition of hardcore gamer back in the day. More and more it seems that definition has morphed into just someone who is basically just addicted to games, I guess you can play Kingdom Hearts all day long and be considered a hardcore gamer.

I know that I am no longer a hardcore gamer, in terms of the old school definition. I think it was an easier line to draw when the PC market was completed separated from the console market and also when the PC market was healthier.

Anyway I suppose it really doesn't matter, I can see where calling a person, who games all day and has every system and all the handhelds plus a top knotch PC, hardcore would fit better. Back then the Hardcore gamer was pushing technology, 3D cards, sound cards, modems, motherboards. I guess today the hardcore gamer is pushing gaming in general, HDTV, broadband, etc.

[Gadfly2317]

I didn't mean to make myself sound like an old-timer longing for his glory days. lol.

My definition of hardcore is basically someone who has a great love for the industry, reads about it, appreciates its history and its value as an art form. Such a person could be in his 30s, or he could be 15.

Welcome Ludicrum. . . great first post!

While many of us here enjoy the occasional system bashing, its all in good fun and stems from a love of this industry and a love of competition and seeing how the game companies are competing (it's like another game.)

A lot about your post reminded me of myself. I don't game as much as I used to, I respect a lot of the different systems and different types of gamers. I also think the industry right now has more to offer than ever in the diversity of types of content out there.

Hopefully you'll stick around systems wars forums. Even though we use the core topic of systems wars (and thus some smack talk) to fuel our conversations, this forum has a lot of bright guys, great conversations, and lot of perspectives on many aspects of gaming, the gaming industry, gaming as an artform, and other types of topics.

Also, I still consider myself hardcore even though for the last few weeks I've been playing Club House Games on DS and some VC games on Wii more than just about anything else.

[ilnadmy]

My definition of hardcore gamer is this - a gamer who, in his preferred game of choice, can wipe the floor with 80% of the opposition he comes across. Given this definition there is no singular "hardcore gamer." Instead, there are hardcore gamers for each individual game. There are hardcore WoW gamers, there are hardcore Counterstrike gamers, and there are hardcore Command and Conquer gamers. The guy who can go 120 games in StarCraft and lose only 3 is a hardcore gamer. The guy who can kill 4 people and then headshot a jumping flag carrier in Halo using nothing but his analog stick is a hardcore gamer. The guy who can go into a 3-on-1 situation in WoW and come out alive is a hardcore gamer.

That's my definition of hardcore. Do I fall into any of these categories? Probably not. I was getting pretty good at Battlefield 2142, to the point where I can assault a node defended by 3 people and end up capturing it, but I have long stopped playing that game (gonna try to get back into it soon though). It makes it easier for me to realize that I probably won't be a hardcore gamer anytime soon, so I can just sit down and enjoy the games I play.

[Glockstar]

That's pretty much what I think of first when I think of hardcore too, ilnadmy.

But I really like TMG's contribution(s) to the definition.

Do I consider myself hardcore? Yeah, I do. Tho' never in the tournament champion sense. I'm just too into videogames. I own too many systems; buy a $#!%load of games; I'm conscious of my achievements in games; I've thought about writing a "walkthrough" several times... but more than that I just follow the industry really closely. I even read the sections that regard systems that I don't own. Why I believe I've forgotten more... stuff... about systems that I don't own than most fanboys of the system ever knew.(!) That's why I'm hardcore. That said, it's not a term that's important to me. I am what I am, I do what I do - and if because of it I'm hardcore then so be it; if not then that's fine too. I'm no l33t.

And as Gadfly said, great first post Ludicrum. However, unlike Gadfly, I say frack System Wars. You really want to talk about videogames visit the console-specific forums. Anywho, welcome!

[ilnadmy]

I've thought about writing a "walkthrough" several times

I actually have half a God of War God Mode walkthrough up on IGN. I didn't finish the walkthrough because my game started acting up and would refuse to load my save game, so I couldn't finish the game.

[GameLegend]

Welcome Ludicrum !

I don’t know. As I read everyone interpretations of what they feel 'hardcore' gamer is, I am tempted to agree with all of them.

-Someone who pushes their hardware specs 100%, always getting the best of the best equipment to play videogames is hardcore, cuz they have a strong passion to experience the best possible enjoyment available

-Someone who consistently win #1 in a particular game is hardcore because they are so deeply immersed into the game's mechanics and inner workings. They have the passion to spend a great deal of time to become the best of the best in that game

-Someone who plays a game 24/7 all day everyday is hardcore, cuz they have the passion to continually play and enjoy the game.

-Someone who has such a strong passion for the video game industry that they would read up on all the news, all the rumors, and discuss their opinions in this website and debate over issues is hardcore.

-Someone who is an active game who has been in the industry to since the Atari (or NES whatever) days is hardcore. Because they have been gaming for a long period of time and developed a greater appreciation of where we have come from, where we are, and where we are heading to.

Conclusion:

So if you look at all these perspectives, and really get down to do what they all share in common, is a consistent passion . Being hardcore does not mean u need to have the highest scores, or the best hardware equipment or all the top games.


Being a hardcore gamer is basically someone who has an undeniable love and passion for videogames and is willing to invest a considerable amount of time for it. This love and passion is channeled through whatever means.

[Gamer From '78]

The term "hardcore gamer" has to be one of the most overused, and misused, terms in the video gaming dictionary. We have kiddies who think the Final Fantasy series started with part 7 calling themselves "hardcore" while they troll forums telling everyone why their console of choice sucks. It almost seems as if anyone who owns a console and buys more than 3 games for it suddenly fancies himself as a "hardcore" gamer.

But this observation begs the question: what DOES make someone hardcore? Is a hardcore gamer the person who lives on internet forums, evangelizing the merits of his console of choice and bashing others until he gets carpel tunnel? Is it the person who screams obscenities over Xbox Live as he pulls off headshots with his trusty sniper rifle? Is it the kid who talks in le3t, cuz he b havin teh le3t skilz at Halo 2 yo?

Perhaps it's someone who's been around the block? I personally have been gaming for about 20 years. My first console was an Atari 2600. I know what the Konami code is because I've used it a million times. I know that online gaming existed before Xbox Live because I've played online with my 28.8 bps modem way back when. But does that make me hardcore, or just old school?

Admittedly I do not play video games now as much as I did 10 years ago, but does that make me less "hardcore" than the person who spends 8 hours a day on Xbox Live practicing his curb stomp in Gears of War? Is "hardcore" status merely the measure of hours played, bosses killed, and people fragged? Is it characterized by how obnoxious you can be in online games and forums, or whether or not you can argue a console fanboy under the table?

I seem to be somewhat of an anomaly. I live, eat, breath, and sleep video games, and yet I don't spend 8 hours a day playing them. I do things other than play video games. I own an Xbox 360, but my xbox live account sits unused, except when I want to download a free demo or extra (offline) game content. Frankly, I feel online multi-player is an overrated feature and I resent the emerging trend of including single-player campaigns as little more than glorified tutorials for the online play.

I think all gaming platforms have merit, I don't feel required to insult, "smack talk", or otherwise disrespect my fellow gamers, I don't care if I'm at the top of the leader board or not, and I think "pwn" is the most retarded slang term ever conceived in the history of all mankind. I can only wonder which group of 9 year-olds riding the short bus to school thought it up.

If immature behavior, an obsession with online deathmatches, and le3t sp3ak are the trappings of hardcore gamers, then I don't want to be identified with that group. But surely knowing why Square Enix (back when they were called Square Co) named their game "final" fantasy, and what racing game they made before it (without needing to look it up on wikipedia), should count for something.

Thoughts?

Thank you for the thoughtful, intelligent post and of course-welcome to VGR. You make many points that I agree 100% with.

I hate obnoxious kids with foul mouths. I think that the obsession with online gaming is taking away from the core, single player experience. The "net speak" is in one word, retarded. Pwn, ownz, teh...the whole thing stems from illiterate little punks who can't spell properly or formulate a cohesive sentence.

What is hardcore? I kind of see things the same as you. I care about the games industry. I love to read the news, see the new games. I DO engage in the bashing of a system, but it's more because I can't stomach the obvious faults that go unchecked. Many here call me a "flip-flopper" because one day I can praise the Wii while the next I could bash the crap out of it. But that's how it is to me. If Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft screw up, I'm going to say something.

I'm a big fan of the Xbox 360 and the original Xbox. It doesn't stop me from getting mad at the failure rate of the 360. I love my PSP, PSOne and PS2, but I can't stand the PS3 right now. The games are either multiplatform and come up short to their 360 counterparts or are lame exclusives. That's how I see it, that's how I call it. I'll be labeled a flip-flopper yet again down the road when I DO buy a PS3 for the good games that will EVENTUALLY come out for it.

Like you and other such as Gadfly, I have been gaming for many years. Since 1978 to be precise. I love games in many genres across many platforms. I don't spend a bazillion hours playing games anymore, I'm lucky to even turn a system on some nights.

I don't consider myself "old school" because I play the new stuff as well as the old. I too remember the days of 28.8k gaming. Diablo held my attention for far longer than I care to remember. I remember spinning gyros with R.O.B on the old NES to raise and lower red & blue platforms. I remember trying so damn hard to kill the laughing bloodhound when I missed a duck! :mad: I remember why Final Fantasy was called "Final Fantasy." Because it was the last game for the bankrupt Squaresoft which turned the company completely around and started an RPG revolution. And how about those infamous "Nintendo spelling mistakes." Zelda's "Triforce with power" or Metal Gear's "I feel asleep!" LOL! Ah....the memories.

Again, welcome aboard Ludicrum. I hope you stick around. :thumbsup:

[Glockstar]

I actually have half a God of War God Mode walkthrough up on IGN. I didn't finish the walkthrough because my game started acting up and would refuse to load my save game, so I couldn't finish the game.

I'm giving you a Gamerpoint! Even if it is only half a walkthrough... that is hardcore!


-


-Someone who has such a strong passion for the video game industry that they would read up on all the news, all the rumors, and discuss their opinions in this website and debate over issues is hardcore.

-Someone who is an active game who has been in the industry to since the Atari (or NES whatever) days is hardcore. Because they have been gaming for a long period of time and developed a greater appreciation of where we have come from, where we are, and where we are heading to.

I've forgot to mention that I'm old school too. Not that am looking for any particular kudos here, but I have been "gaming" since Pong. Though we (the family) skipped over the Atari 2600.

The sick thing is that I've been doing this "system wars" shiite since the Intellivision/Colecovision days. As with my (presidential) voting record, my system of choice hasn't faired all that well - I've a losing record. :p

[Dancer O_o]

ilnadmy's definition was the best: My definition of hardcore gamer is this - a gamer who, in his preferred game of choice, can wipe the floor with 80% of the opposition he comes across.

I agree that online is overrated and I truly hate this trend of making multiplayer first and singleplayer second, often weakening the singleplayer portion to unworthiness. It is ironic though that this very weekend I spent no less than 5 hours playing Battlefield 2 on the 360 and plan to play a ton more this week, some games are truly better as multiplayer games than singleplayer, this is definately one of them.

The immaturitly is what drives me back out though inevitably, I can only stand the drival, tripe and general assanine behavior so long.

My only other stipulation to being officially labelled a Hardcore gamer is that Hardcore gamers DO NOT use game guides, it totally defeats the statis and makes a mockery of it if so called Hardcore gamers use one. They can write one though...

[Gadfly2317]

And how about those infamous "Nintendo spelling mistakes." Zelda's "Triforce with power" or Metal Gear's "I feel asleep!" LOL! Ah....the memories.


And whichever game it was that gave us the blesssed "All Your Base Are Belong To Us."

[ThaMaskedGamer]

I like Ilnady's contribution as well. This is one reason why I don't consider myself a hardcore gamer anymore. I use to pride myself on being great at online gaming, from Command&Conquer to Quake, from Age of Empire to Viper Racing. Now the only thing I am really competitive in online is racing, and there I don't care so much about winning, as much as I care about racing clean and racing hard, but if I lose cool. But I hate people who win at all cost, if you gotta cheat that is no victory.

In that way I agree with the sentiment that using game guides SUCK, using walkthroughs SUCK. I also tend to think I still have some hardcore left in me in that I prefer playing single player games on the hardest setting, stuff like that. But now that stuff is secondary for me the most important thing is to enjoy the game, for me.

I guess there are many definitions.

[Glockstar]

My only other stipulation to being officially labelled a Hardcore gamer is that Hardcore gamers DO NOT use game guides, it totally defeats the statis and makes a mockery of it if so called Hardcore gamers use one.

D'oh. Guess I'm not hardcore.

[Dancer O_o]

D'oh. Guess I'm not hardcore. exceptions can be made in this instance..but only for you Glocky

[Glockstar]

No. No no no. I refuse. No hardcore for me.

[Fivespot]

D'oh. Guess I'm not hardcore.

Same here then. I use the occasional help guide, but I never use cheat codes (gotta draw the line somewhere).

I consider myself an extreme hobbyist moreso than "hardcore" mainly because I only play an hour or so a day if I'm lucky (sometimes more on the weekend). I'm a lot like Ludicrum in this regard; play little but read a ton.

[PapaSmurf]

Dancer to be honest, there are some games where I don't know how the hell you could figure some of things out unless you had a gameguide. A great example would be FFXII. Sure you could beat the game w/o a gameguide easily, but I wanted all the best gear available. I read online that you could get a super uber sword, but you have to get all sorts of prereq stuff and then you had to sell that stuff in a certain order in order for the certain sword to appear. Now there are no directions in the game manual or game itself that describe how the buying and selling system works or that there is even that kind of sword in the game.

Sure I probably didn't need to use a gameguide but that would have easily put probably 30-40 hours more of gametime onto my FFXII file which was already over 100+ hours. THe extra 30-40 hours would come from going to various different zones and going back and forth and buying and selling until I came up with some random combination to get what I needed. Sucks when only certain items can be found in one area and then you have to get other certain items which can only be found in another said area.

Taking the time to go look for all the crap isn't what I call hardcore, it's what I call addiction.

[Mochan]

You know what hardcore is? TLW for Sony.

[Glockstar]

Same here then. I use the occasional help guide, but I never use cheat codes (gotta draw the line somewhere).

I consider myself an extreme hobbyist moreso than "hardcore" mainly because I only play an hour or so a day if I'm lucky (sometimes more on the weekend). I'm a lot like Ludicrum in this regard; play little but read a ton.

Frackin' A... Frack cheaters and cheat codes. :mad:

Extreme hobbyist... I kinda like that. Because I definitely consider this a hobby. But I think a good label for myself - if we gotta use labels - would be "Video Game Enthusiast".

[Cuddly Knife]

I'm not Hardcore, I'm GANGSTA!

But really. I agree with ilnadmy and TMG about hardcore gamers. I know for a fact I suck balls at realistic style games like the racing sims shooters and such, but I know that I can hang with anyone in the world on Burnout Takedown of Revenge, plus after more than a year, I've held a top 20 high score in Mutant Storm Reloaded leaderboards. I guess I could be called hardcore when it comes to actual competition with other gamers, but not hardcore in how I can't hang with a lot of genres.

And on the issue of FAQS and guides, I don't mind them, but only after I've beaten the game, or exausted every possible attempt before needing to resort to a guide, which is about never, unless it's an RPG. CHeats are good for bullsh!t gaming, and not for taking the easy way. I also wrote a Gamefaq for a Burnout Revenge Boost Guide, but it got rejected for some reason. It was damn good, too.

[Dancer O_o]

Dancer to be honest, there are some games where I don't know how the hell you could figure some of things out unless you had a gameguide. A great example would be FFXII. Sure you could beat the game w/o a gameguide easily, but I wanted all the best gear available. I read online that you could get a super uber sword, but you have to get all sorts of prereq stuff and then you had to sell that stuff in a certain order in order for the certain sword to appear. Now there are no directions in the game manual or game itself that describe how the buying and selling system works or that there is even that kind of sword in the game.

Sure I probably didn't need to use a gameguide but that would have easily put probably 30-40 hours more of gametime onto my FFXII file which was already over 100+ hours. THe extra 30-40 hours would come from going to various different zones and going back and forth and buying and selling until I came up with some random combination to get what I needed. Sucks when only certain items can be found in one area and then you have to get other certain items which can only be found in another said area.

Taking the time to go look for all the crap isn't what I call hardcore, it's what I call addiction.

You beat the game without it but used a guide to gather loot only. I see that as a hardcore thing to do, not a weakness in gameplay abilities or a lack of time, which is the main reasons people use guides. From my point of view average gamers use guides because they have little time to waste on gaming and want to get to the goods now, I don't see anything wrong with this at all, it's not my style of play but to each his own and more power to them for it. I have guides for about 5 or 6 six games that were given to me with the games as gifts, I just have never needed one. I have run into a few games that were so hard that I probably would have benefitted to have a guide, but I figure that if a game is so hard to beat that it is most likely not worth it. Very rarely have I played a game that was so hard that still kept my interest to the painful end. Sometimes hard means not finding the damned key, or unable to figure out the convoluted puzzle (capcom), rarely does it mean wicked badassed AI. Usually when I run into super tough AI I get excited and play better, it drives me, it's why I charish a good FPS. Your use of a guide Papa was one I forgot to consider, so in this case I could say a guide would actually help to reinforce hardcore statis, not negate it.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Anyone who hasn't played Shenmue 2 without a faq has probably missed about 30% of what the game has to offer at least.

[PapaSmurf]

KOTOR2 as well. I beat that game simple enough but I had no idea you could convert every character into a jedi if you had good standing with them. Hence KOTOR 2 is getting at least one more play through from me. Bet some of you just found that conversion jedi thing out just now.

[Dancer O_o]

KOTOR2 as well. I beat that game simple enough but I had no idea you could convert every character into a jedi if you had good standing with them. Hence KOTOR 2 is getting at least one more play through from me. Bet some of you just found that conversion jedi thing out just now.

I beat both games and have no clue what you are talking about, that was a while ago so memory is fuzzy. Of what benefit is being a jedi in gameplay? I would hope it means more than simply a rating or an ability to say I done it. I remember now that I was actually on a second romp thru KOTOR II as a Sith wannabe, I seem to recall that it was actually hard to make assanine choices without fail for 50 hours...

[T.Tashi]

One thing that really stood out on this forum was how articulate the majority of the posts are. After hearing "Xbox sux ps3 RULZ!" for the umpteenth time, this place is quite refreshing.


Whaaat?!? That's my Borat impersonation. Hi five!

I suppose I could've been considered hardcore back in the arcade days when I was playing Centipede, Dig Dug and getting free credits on Donkey Kong with a straw. I was called a nerd when I brought my TI994A to college. My friends called me hardcore when I was playing 2 or 3 rpgs at a time. But in reality I'm a niche gamer if anything. I play rpgs and action adventure, emphasis on adventure and I don't stray much outside those genres. That is when its comes to spending money. When I go to friend's houses I always play weird Wii games or Halo or whatever.

Good post btw. :thumbsup:

[PapaSmurf]

I beat both games and have no clue what you are talking about, that was a while ago so memory is fuzzy. Of what benefit is being a jedi in gameplay? I would hope it means more than simply a rating or an ability to say I done it. I remember now that I was actually on a second romp thru KOTOR II as a Sith wannabe, I seem to recall that it was actually hard to make assanine choices without fail for 50 hours...

The option isn't KOTOR1 just KOTOR2. I have yet to experience this process but I've read in various forums it is possible. In KOTOR2 only you get negative or positive points with each person like you could be in good standing with Atton and bad standing with Kreia or some mix. I've read once you get enough positive standing with a character who already isn't a jedi (say Atton or the due with horns) you can teach them the way of the force and they can become Jedi's and use lightsaber. This is a known fact but it takes a while to do it and you can easily beat the game without ever knowing the option existed in the game which is what happened with me and apparently you. Just google it or wiki it. I was shocked to find that out. It definitely adds replay value for me as I'm the kind of guy would want to roll around with a bunch of Jedi badasses whom I tought the ways of the force in the RPG. Kreia and Visa are already Jedi in the game, but just imagaine Atton, the horn dude, or even Mandalore as lightsaber wielding badasses. It's possible, but few know if it apparently.

[Tappy_Tibbons]

I'd define a hardcore gamer as someone who chooses to spend the majority of their freetime playing video games. That being said, I am a hardcore gamer. Yes, I have a girlfriend and a job and live on my own, all that good stuff, but I still play more video games than anything else.

A hardcore GAME on the other hand...I saw a poll from another forum a while back about WoW...was WoW a "hardcore" game with the choices "YES" or "ahahahahahahahahaha!" and the latter was winning by a significant margin.

I think a hardcore GAME is relative to the gamer but I'd define a hardcore game as something that challenges you for your skills, not how much time you have to put into a game. For the record, I answered "ahahahahahahahaha!" to WoW being "hardcore". I've never touched a MMORPG and probably never will because they are about your time sink over your skill. I'll give you a short list of hardcore games and a brief explanation of why...

1. Burnout ... the series, specifically Burnout 2,3,Revenge, and Dominator...these games require nerves of steel to play correctly without constantly crashing and FULL CONCENTRATION. I played Burnout 3 online for over 500 hours and would still to this day if people still played it.

2. Super Mario Bros series - Gradius - Contra as well as other 2d platformers/ shooters/ action - and every thing in between...self-explanatory

3. FPS - CS, Halo, HL2 DM, whatever...multiplayer especially. These are just the opposite in that you bring your skills online to an even playing field as much the first match as the 10000th match. Skill...not time will choose your success.

4. Puzzle games...many non-hardcore gamers play these...like my mom who's in her 60's but at the same time, these take serious thought and are NOT forgiving in the least.

5. FIGHTING GAMES - Beginning with SF 2, the better the interface gets to where one day you're doing on screen what you are thinking, are true games of hardcore zen.

All in all, maybe I'm just a RPG hater because you'll notice, leveling up does NOT, in my eyes, qualify a game as being "hardcore". In fact, they RUIN games in my opinion, as much as turn basing. If a game focuses on story moreso than gameplay, I don't care how smart you think you are due to the fact that you may or may not understand the overly convuluted storylines, convuluted does not equal "hardcore". Video story books are not hardcore in the least. And just because you're a higher level than me online because you've chosen to waste more of your life leveling up does NOT in ANY WAY mean you are better than me.

So all in all, even someone who played NOTHING BUT MADDEN could be a hardcore gamer because Madden has depth and requires SKILL...not timesink, to get better.

[Tappy_Tibbons]

To simplify, WoW is not a "hardcore" game...BUT, the WoW geeks that play it constantly, ARE hardcore gamers because they choose to spend more freetime gaming than anything else.

[Cuddly Knife]

You're FOS, Tappy. Before I got off of Live, there was still a decent community for Takedown. Sure, there aren't hundreds of gamers online at once like there once was, but still, the best of the best still play it, at all hours. Burnout Revenge on the 360 is always smoking. All three, including races, RR, and Crash have at least 5 to 10 rooms each that have some decent players. You're just afraid of getting dogged on the game you claim to be the champ.

I did hear however that Takedown was going to get dropped off the servers when they release Paradise City.