High Scores

[Gadfly2317]

I apologize in advance for the morbidity of this post, and if anyone was personally affected by the recent college shooting.

But, was it just me, or did anyone else, when they heard the news that a school shooter had taken out thirty three people, "Wow, he just got the high score."

And I thought the same thing with Columbine, well before they started talking about how the kids liked Doom. It was like "These dudes just got the school-shooting-gallery high-score."

And those Koreans, aren't they the country where people keel over dead from playing online videogames for so many hours on end they forget to eat and sleep? I just wonder where they guy got his targetting skills.

And finally, speaking of high scores, when you get the high score, in the good old days you got to put your three intials up. What did you guys use back in the arcade days? The initials of your name? Boring. Did you sometimes change what you used? Surely I'm not the only one here who thought it was clever to use THC? I know someone, in their thirties, who still uses that one. Mostly, I used GAD. I don't go to aracdes much anymore, but when I do, putting up a high score initial isn't an issue.

So what were your high score intials.

[Glockstar]

I apologize in advance for the morbidity of this post, and if anyone was personally affected by the recent college shooting.

But, was it just me, or did anyone else, when they heard the news that a school shooter had taken out thirty three people, "Wow, he just got the high score."

And I thought the same thing with Columbine, well before they started talking about how the kids liked Doom. It was like "These dudes just got the school-shooting-gallery high-score."

And those Koreans, aren't they the country where people keel over dead from playing online videogames for so many hours on end they forget to eat and sleep? I just wonder where they guy got his targetting skills.

Dude... :(


And finally, speaking of high scores, when you get the high score, in the good old days you got to put your three intials up. What did you guys use back in the arcade days? The initials of your name? Boring. Did you sometimes change what you used? Surely I'm not the only one here who thought it was clever to use THC? I know someone, in their thirties, who still uses that one. Mostly, I used GAD. I don't go to aracdes much anymore, but when I do, putting up a high score initial isn't an issue.

So what were your high score intials.

Yep, I was boring: I used my initials. But... I have great initials. GBH. Still use them today - even when I got room for much more - I'll frequently name my RPG-characters with them.

[ilnadmy]

I apologize in advance for the morbidity of this post, and if anyone was personally affected by the recent college shooting.

But, was it just me, or did anyone else, when they heard the news that a school shooter had taken out thirty three people, "Wow, he just got the high score."

And I thought the same thing with Columbine, well before they started talking about how the kids liked Doom. It was like "These dudes just got the school-shooting-gallery high-score."

And those Koreans, aren't they the country where people keel over dead from playing online videogames for so many hours on end they forget to eat and sleep? I just wonder where they guy got his targetting skills.

And finally, speaking of high scores, when you get the high score, in the good old days you got to put your three intials up. What did you guys use back in the arcade days? The initials of your name? Boring. Did you sometimes change what you used? Surely I'm not the only one here who thought it was clever to use THC? I know someone, in their thirties, who still uses that one. Mostly, I used GAD. I don't go to aracdes much anymore, but when I do, putting up a high score initial isn't an issue.

So what were your high score intials.
Errm...

I have a friend who studies at Virginia Tech. He's fine, but still that sh** hits home hard. It's also very much a pressing concern for me since I'm going back to the US soon, so...yeah.

[Mochan]

For high scores, I put...

AAA

[Intangir]

But, was it just me, or did anyone else, when they heard the news that a school shooter had taken out thirty three people, "Wow, he just got the high score."

And I thought the same thing with Columbine, well before they started talking about how the kids liked Doom. It was like "These dudes just got the school-shooting-gallery high-score."
It's a weird train of thought, but I sometimes do it. I try to keep my shared thoughts limited to TV or movies, though, and usually I don't think in terms of getting the highest score, but viewing certain activities as earning points or experience. For instance, sometimes whenever Vic Mackey assaults an ethnic person I imagine an invisible score counter going up--although by now he could sit out the rest of this season and the last and still win that particular high-score. Some movies even do the work for you; ever see Satan's Little Helper? If not, YouTube has the particular scene (http://youtube.com/watch?v=O1PdAtjCzZU) (2:35 mark onward).

My arcade initials were usually AAA or whatever alphanumeric it defaulted on.

[Mochan]

Et tu, Intangir?

[Intangir]

Well I never played much arcades and have always hated those stupid highscore initial things in console games (e.g. SNES Killer Instinct). I just want to play the game.

Then again, I never had the time or money to get the #1 slot on an arcade/pinball machine which might actually be worthy of initials--real or otherwise. The only arcade game where I was somewhat score conscientious was for one of those table-top Arkanoid machines, but in no time I realized that the single-purposed 40-something year old who came in and played it religiously every weekend was insurmountable.

Besides, there wasn't a Gun.Smoke where I lived.

[Mochan]

I also sometimes put "GOD" or "SEX" for the high score.

[Gadfly2317]

Errm...

I have a friend who studies at Virginia Tech. He's fine, but still that sh** hits home hard. It's also very much a pressing concern for me since I'm going back to the US soon, so...yeah.

I knew a student that was a nutcase loner in grad school, and he shot a professor to death in his office and then shot himself--it was a professor I was very close to, and I knew the student as well. Very painful and sad.

Yet it doesn't change the fact that I have a brutally dark sense of humor and irony and afairly dim view of mankind. Try as I might, I haven't come up with a good set of 3-letter high score initials one might use after winning the school-rampage game. Like Mochan, I too sometimes used GOD as my letters when I'd get the high score at the arcades (usually Galaga, which was my best.) And God is what these nuts have just played at. Good 3 letter high score initials though? PUD maybe? Because its always an unlaid social reject. It's just damned sad; sorry to be so flippant, but the older I get the cheaper life seems.

[Gamer From '78]

I knew a student that was a nutcase loner in grad school, and he shot a professor to death in his office and then shot himself--it was a professor I was very close to, and I knew the student as well. Very painful and sad.

Yet it doesn't change the fact that I have a brutally dark sense of humor and irony and afairly dim view of mankind. Try as I might, I haven't come up with a good set of 3-letter high score initials one might use after winning the school-rampage game. Like Mochan, I too sometimes used GOD as my letters when I'd get the high score at the arcades (usually Galaga, which was my best.) And God is what these nuts have just played at. Good 3 letter high score initials though? PUD maybe? Because its always an unlaid social reject. It's just damned sad; sorry to be so flippant, but the older I get the cheaper life seems.

I don't usually think about things like "high score" when it comes to the Virginia-Tech's and Columbine's of the world. Or more specifically, this sad, sad country we call America that is swirling down the toilet bowl faster & faster. Lazier and fatter kids and bigger and more super-sized meals. Spoon-fed to the young while they are nurtured on a steady diet of garbage on television. Like you Gad, I find myself becoming more & more cynical.

People who aren't proud of their race. Degenerates killing indiscriminately. And the ever-present "press" and "reporters" who thrive on death, destruction and carnage. Meanwhile, guys like John Carmack and his FIFTEEN YEAR OLD PC GAME called Doom are cited as "helping the boys perfect their shooting skills" ala Columbine. Like pressing a left and a right arrow on a keyboard along with a spacebar really perfects ANY kind of targeting skills. :rolleyes: And artist like Marilyn Manson and Judas Priest who take the brunt of it all when some F'd up kid who had good-for-nothing F'd up parents does something stupid.

But hey, we are America! We show death, worship an invisible avenger who loves us uncoditoinally so long as we kiss his almighty @$$ and worship violence. We make sure women don't have the right to say what happens with their own bodies, just so we have more cannon fodder to send into the battlefield when they turn 18. And, oh heavens! Such a shame that Janet Jackson showed her knocker on the tube. What a travesty! We can't show the natural beauty of the human body as this will somehow corrupt our youth. Yet we show corpses and body counts in in Iraq.

Which all leads into the retarded moron we have running or "leading" our country straight into the crapper. Let's not forget, he won because of hanging chads in good old Florida! Florida, the only contested state where initially George Dubbya lost...unit Florida's governor stepped in. Some guy named...Jeb Bush? Gee...I wonder....:rolleyes:

So for all who may have felt at one point that I was of the opinion that America was so great, you see how I really feel now. America, the country that gives the rich everything, doesn't charge the poor anything and puts the full burden on the middle-class working families. Further preyed upon by what any sane person would call loansharking. But the US Government calls it Payday advance/loan, etc. Whatever. The mafia got their "balls broke" for it, but as long as Uncle Sam & G Dubbya get a cut, it's all good. :thumbsup:

Gad, email me dude. We gotta talk where we can REALLY say what is on our minds. :mad:

[Zilla Man]

I don't usually think about things like "high score" when it comes to the Virginia-Tech's and Columbine's of the world. Or more specifically, this sad, sad country we call America that is swirling down the toilet bowl faster & faster. Lazier and fatter kids and bigger and more super-sized meals. Spoon-fed to the young while they are nurtured on a steady diet of garbage on television. Like you Gad, I find myself becoming more & more cynical.

People who aren't proud of their race. Degenerates killing indiscriminately. And the ever-present "press" and "reporters" who thrive on death, destruction and carnage. Meanwhile, guys like John Carmack and his FIFTEEN YEAR OLD PC GAME called Doom are cited as "helping the boys perfect their shooting skills" ala Columbine. Like pressing a left and a right arrow on a keyboard along with a spacebar really perfects ANY kind of targeting skills. :rolleyes: And artist like Marilyn Manson and Judas Priest who take the brunt of it all when some F'd up kid who had good-for-nothing F'd up parents does something stupid.

But hey, we are America! We show death, worship an invisible avenger who loves us uncoditoinally so long as we kiss his almighty @$$ and worship violence. We make sure women don't have the right to say what happens with their own bodies, just so we have more cannon fodder to send into the battlefield when they turn 18. And, oh heavens! Such a shame that Janet Jackson showed her knocker on the tube. What a travesty! We can't show the natural beauty of the human body as this will somehow corrupt our youth. Yet we show corpses and body counts in in Iraq.

Which all leads into the retarded moron we have running or "leading" our country straight into the crapper. Let's not forget, he won because of hanging chads in good old Florida! Florida, the only contested state where initially George Dubbya lost...unit Florida's governor stepped in. Some guy named...Jeb Bush? Gee...I wonder....:rolleyes:

So for all who may have felt at one point that I was of the opinion that America was so great, you see how I really feel now. America, the country that gives the rich everything, doesn't charge the poor anything and puts the full burden on the middle-class working families. Further preyed upon by what any sane person would call loansharking. But the US Government calls it Payday advance/loan, etc. Whatever. The mafia got their "balls broke" for it, but as long as Uncle Sam & G Dubbya get a cut, it's all good.

Preach on G78! :yesnod:

Yeah, and you gotta love that the first thing out of Bush's Press Secretary's mouth in regard to the tragedy was: "The President would like everyone to know that he still believes in a citizen's right to bear arms." WTF? :yikes: I'm sure that made the victims' families feel good.

What an idiot.

[ilnadmy]

Seriously, WTF is up with this retarded insistence on a citizen's right to bear arms. Newsflash for you - people buy guns to kill other people. Allowing everyone to buy guns to protect themselves is like allowing every country in the world nuclear weapons "for self defense." But oh no we wouldn't want all countries to have nuclear weapons because they wouldn't know not to use them (even though the US is the only country in history to have used atomic bombs against another country). Strangely, this last piece of logic escapes American politicians when it comes to the right to bear arms. Why? Because the voting public would go absolutely crazy if they did realize that more guns leads to more violence and tried to implement any kind of gun control.

The UK has a population of 56 million. Last year, 6 gun-related homicides were reported. Manhattan has a population of 8 million. Last year, close to 600 gun-related homicides were reported. Yeah, that right to bear arms really helps people protect themselves you f***ing morons.

[Mochan]

Check out Mauritius, the country where policemen don't have guns.

[Fivespot]

Yup, nothing beats a good ole ass whoopin' as my dad always said. Or was that Ward Cleaver? Regardless I couldn't agree more with that sentiment.

If Cho only would have punched a few dudes out.... Things would be much better today.

And for high score initials- FIV or when I was real young- ASS thought it was funny (in a true act of being childish).

[slade]

When I saw the Twin Towers crumble, I was like, 'Holy #@$%, they pulled it off.' Kinda regretted it ever since if only because it shows that no matter how open minded you try to be, the stuff you grew up with will always have an influence over your thoughts.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Before I say this I want to say I'm from Virginia I think Jaa phanom is too. My brother nolan goes to VA Tech #56 defensive end for the the Hokies.

When I first saw this I thought damn. But when the facts came out that he actually killed more people than he wounded. And he used handguns one a relatively weak 22.

The first disgusting thought I had was damn! He must've been a helluva shot. Why would I think that I don't know. Then I actually thought about systemwars and that post about holding your guns "gangsta style"

Anyway the second ammendment has been taken way out of proportion. We are no longer waiting for the British to come banging down our doors.

But then again. One of Hitlers first act when he came to power was to outlaw handguns. So there are two legitiamate sides to the argument. Anyway I still think guns should be outlaw. The fact is you can't shoot people if you can't get a gun.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Anyway the second ammendment has been taken way out of proportion. We are no longer waiting for the British to come banging down our doors.

But then again. One of Hitlers first act when he came to power was to outlaw handguns. So there are two legitiamate sides to the argument. Anyway I still think guns should be outlaw. The fact is you can't shoot people if you can't get a gun.

This country was born and bred on violence. In a way Gadfly is 100% correct. What happened the day after Columbine? What happened the day after Va. Tech? A bunch of people all across the country sent threatening letters to their schools proposing to do the same thing. And guess what? Someone else will! The only question will be how many people do they kill, will they get the new high score!

And for people who feel that is insensitivie, I say BS. This whole country has an insensitivity toward violence. Many idiots said the answer to what happened at Va Tech is to loosen handgun laws so other students could have shot back! I'm black I grew up in the inner city, I've had friends killed and had friend who killed. Many times the people who got killed were luckier than the ones who lived, because i've had friends and known of people who just got mangled! Where I come from walking to school was dangerous. Violence was an everyday part of life. I never saw the outrage. You only see it when it spills into a segment of society that is supposed to be immune to violence. So as long as this country tolerates violence there are always gonna be episodes where it spills into white corporate america. And the number is important. Just a few days after Va. Tech there was a mass murder/suicide right here in NY 4 people dead including the shooter. But that wasn't important because 'only' 4 people died. To me if one person dies because of handguns that's important but to America we only get outraged if it is a lot of people and if it is the right kind of people who lose their lives.

Hand guns are just too damn dangerous to be allowed in a so-called civilized society. But America doesn't want to be a civilized society. Crime is a major industry in this country, a major source of revenue for the black market, which is controlled by white people, and the Government, which is also controlled by white people. So when white people get serious about crime, which will never happen because it is too profitable, America can call itself a civilized society. Japan is civilized, Europe is civilized, Canada is civilized, hell even places like the Dominican Republic are civilized. America is isn't. So we had the DC sniper, we had Colombine, now got Va. Tech., in a few years there will another incident, meanwhile everyday people continue to get gunned down and nobody cares.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Anyway the second ammendment has been taken way out of proportion. We are no longer waiting for the British to come banging down our doors.

But then again. One of Hitlers first act when he came to power was to outlaw handguns. So there are two legitiamate sides to the argument. Anyway I still think guns should be outlaw. The fact is you can't shoot people if you can't get a gun.

Plus that's the NRA and gun lobby and limp noodle idiots who feel powerful with a piece of cold steel in their hands distorting the 2nd amendment. Handguns can be banned and meanwhile rifles/shotguns could still be owned. Of course people could still kill with rifles/shotguns. I'd like to see them all banned, but I think the best we could ever get in this country is a ban on handguns, people can still get their gun fix with rifles and shotguns.

It is a hell of a lot harder to conceal and take so many people out in a closed space with a rifle/shotgun. Anyway, this is a moot point. America will pause and grieve and then get back to the business of killing.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

. Violence was an everyday part of life. I never saw the outrage. You only see it when it spills into a segment of society that is supposed to be immune to violence.

So To me if one person dies because of handguns that's important but to America we only get outraged if it is a lot of people and if it is the right kind of people who lose their lives.

.


When I first moved here to Va from Jersey City it was a culture shock because the area I moved to there were a lot of white people. You don't see many in Jersey City. Not Rich white people that are scared of blacks but the good ole boys with the shotguns in the trunk. Now this area used to be predominate white but more black people started moving in so racial tension was crazy. Anyway there was a incident some people died and others got hurt it made the news. But they were trailer trash white people and ghettoized blacks so no big deal. This happend my sophmore year in highschool. It happed at teen night spot.

2 years later after no more serious incidents a white upper class kid comes to the area leaves the night spot gets robbed and beat real bad a mile or so down the street. And the outrage was crazy.

"They attacked him because he was white" "That whole area needs to get shutdown" etc.

And it happeded the night spot closed the county instituted a curfew for anyone under 17 that still exist to this day but you can bet it gets enforced in only certain "problem areas"

My point being when the right people get affected the government steps up and make changes.

After crack hit in the 80's and the violence that followed Handguns should have been taken off the streets. But the people affected then didn't matter. So now we have this, Columbine, Va Tech, The Omnish school shooting. The right people are being affected now so how long will it take for the goverment to step up.

You can blame hip hop, videogames, society whatever you want. But the simple fact remains like I said in my other post. You can't shoot people if you can't get a gun.

As it stands now 32 is the high score and I bet anything that somebody some where is thinking how can I beat that. I wouldn't be surprised to see them come in with guns but the next one will increase his level and have a suicide bomb strapped to his chest. So when he kills himself he'll go out with a plus 10 or 20 multiplier.

Then maybe something will change.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

When I first moved here to Va from Jersey City it was a culture shock because the area I moved to there were a lot of white people. You don't see many in Jersey City. Not Rich white people that are scared of blacks but the good ole boys with the shotguns in the trunk. Now this area used to be predominate white but more black people started moving in so racial tension was crazy. Anyway there was a incident some people died and others got hurt it made the news. But they were trailer trash white people and ghettoized blacks so no big deal. This happend my sophmore year in highschool. It happed at teen night spot.

2 years later after no more serious incidents a white upper class kid comes to the area leaves the night spot gets robbed and beat real bad a mile or so down the street. And the outrage was crazy.

"They attacked him because he was white" "That whole area needs to get shutdown" etc.

And it happeded the night spot closed the county instituted a curfew for anyone under 17 that still exist to this day but you can bet it gets enforced in only certain "problem areas"

My point being when the right people get affected the government steps up and make changes.

After crack hit in the 80's and the violence that followed Handguns should have been taken off the streets. But the people affected then didn't matter. So now we have this, Columbine, Va Tech, The Omnish school shooting. The right people are being affected now so how long will it take for the goverment to step up.
<b>
You can blame hip hop, videogames, society whatever you want. But the simple fact remains like I said in my other post. You can't shoot people if you can't get a gun.

As it stands now 32 is the high score and I bet anything that somebody some where is thinking how can I beat that. I wouldn't be surprised to see them come in with guns but the next one will increase his level and have a suicide bomb strapped to his chest. So when he kills himself he'll go out with a plus 10 or 20 multiplier.

Then maybe something will change.</b>


Its funny how people relate and connect issues also. For example with the Imus thing, white america blamed Hip-Hop, I laughed my azz off. White people have been calling blacks/latinos/jews/gays names long before rap music. And if tomorrow every black person stopped using the 'N-word' do you think white people will stop? Same thing with this shooting. People have been shooting each other in this country long before videogames, violent movies, and rap music and if you ban violent media, guess what? People will continue to shoot each other. If you want racial harmony end racial discrimination, not rap music. If you want people to stop shooting each other take away the guns! People say "guns don't kill people, people kill people." Okay, so then grenades don't kill people, so let's legalize grenade ownership. Hell nuclear weapons don't kill people, leaders who launch nukes do, so let's give Al Qaeda, Iran, and N. Korea nukes.

But i'll tell u what, i don't think things will change in terms of gun laws. I think it may get worse. There are already a number of states that allow you to walk around with concealed handguns and now after this just like you and I are calling for banning handguns, other people(hate to say it cause it sounds like I don't like white people which is not the case) southern whites are calling for more liberal gun laws to allow more and more people to carry guns. And their theory, in a stupid way, makes sense. If you aren't gonna ban handguns, then let everybody carry them. At least in this way you have some possibility of defending yourself. So either ban them or let everybody have them, in this country guns will never get banned, but I can see more states allowing guns to be carried.

[ilnadmy]

As it stands now 32 is the high score and I bet anything that somebody some where is thinking how can I beat that. I wouldn't be surprised to see them come in with guns but the next one will increase his level and have a suicide bomb strapped to his chest. So when he kills himself he'll go out with a plus 10 or 20 multiplier.

Then maybe something will change.

Not even then. 30,000 people die in the US on a yearly basis due to gun-related violence, and yet the NRA with their big guns and tiny d***s exercise enough political power to prevent politicians from doing anything about. Hell, the Democrats recently dropped their anti-gun stance to do better in elections (and they did).

Yesterday in Baghdad, several car bombs ripped apart a market killing 200 people. Did it make the news? Probably, but good luck finding it.

America is a plutocracy, plain and simple; it is a government ruled by money. All that bullsh** between Democrats and Republicans is nothing more than politicians jockeying for political (read: monetary) backing, and it is for that reason that when disasters happen no one seems to give a sh**. I mean when the NRA and people like Rupert Murdoch can affect political decisions in the most powerful country in the world, something's not right.

Going back to the above quote, I was reading an article written by some psychologist who basically said that someone out there who was planning something similar is now going to have a goal to hit - 32 deaths - and is going to use this event to galvanize his actions. It's plain f***ing retarded that with all this bullsh** going on the government refuses to make any changes like nothing's wrong. Then another guy comes up and shoots up another school, and the President comes in and says a few words and then goes back to the White House and throws away the gun-control folder. Then the Vice President shoots some guy in the face (warning flags going up!!) and yet no one really cares (apart from watching a few talk shows to absorb the comedic value of such an event). But then some guy gets the nerve to walk into a mayor's office, shoots some Republican/Democrat officials, and suddenly the government goes crazy. F***ING DUH!! Where do you think this sh** is going to lead?

It's sad, really. I don't have much sympathy for the American government, but when innocent civilians can't even feel safe on university and school campuses because some top-ranking politicians want some more money to fill up their bank accounts I am really saddened. I never did think democracy was the best political system out there, and it's things like this that I point to when people ask me why.

EDIT: And another thing. The Second Amendment:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Read that again.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

One last time.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Get with the f***ing times why don't you.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

<b>
America is a plutocracy, plain and simple; it is a government ruled by money.</b>

<b> I never did think democracy was the best political system out there, and it's things like this that I point to when people ask me why.</b>




Judging by your level of knowledge on this issue, which I applaud. I want to somewhat modify your last sentence. Democracy isn't the problem. Democracy is a fallacy here in the states. Democracy is just a way to make people perceive as though 'WE' are in charge. The truth of the matter is Capitalism or Unconstrained Capitalism is the true culprit here. Somethings are just too important to be left in the hands of the market and capitalists. We need to bend our 'unconstrained captilism' toward a more Social Capitalist structure so that the needs and interest of PEOPLE come before business interest. American society is geared so that businesses and corporations succeed and from that the benefits are supposed to trickle down to society.

But here is how effed up this country is. People think the war in Iraq was an attempt by the Government to take Iraq's oil. Naw, if it happened i'm sure Bush and the corporations he represent would be pleased, but they had a planned that was guaranteed to be profitable. This war is nothing more than a transfer of wealth from middle class America to the rich people, represented by their corporations. When we $400 billion appropriated in $80 billion to $100 billion chunks every quarter, that money is NOT going to Iraq or Iraqi citizens. It is going to the military industrial sector. Halliburton, Raytheon, Boeing, all the myriad of corporations who profit from it. For them, that's guaranteed money. If the oil money comes or not! And that is our money, money that could have been used in Katrina, money that could have been used to make our airports safer, or money that could be used to provide people with health care and access to college. When Clinton was in office we had budget surpluses. Do you really think the rich people who control this country were gonna stand idly by while the government gave that money back to society in the form of Social Security, education spending, free health care, better roads and infrastructure, etc., hell no! Those budget surpluses and more is right where they want it, in their backpockets, and they got a tax-cut to boot! Hell who needs Iraq's piddly oil?

Meanwhile, our democracy was busy voting on things like banning gay marriage, abortion, immigration, all of these hot button issues to make us feel like this is a democracy. Hell, I remember for a minute during the Clinton administration's last months, America was debating reducing the work week to 32 hours, corporations were debating the merits of letting people work from home more often, and things like that. Boy that's funny now, the capitalist saw that and said, 'we gotta do something' next thing you know, down goes the towers!

Let me say one thing about capitalism. I believe in constrained capitalism read that a more socialist approach. But for all those dumb-azz american's who believe they are capitalist here is a small education. In capitalism you have three things, the government whose role is reduced in pure capitalism, the capitalist who own the means of production, and the worker who um works. America is a capitalist country, but that doesn't make you a "capitalist", <b>you are a worker!</b> In America the happy people are either in the Government(politicians) or are the Capitalist(major stock owners, business owners, investors, creditors, banks) who own shyat! And no, that doesn't not mean your 20 shares of GM stock makes you a capitalist. You are a worker. America gives you the hope of one day becoming the capitalist, that's what we all strive for, to one day strike it rich, but chances are you will never be the capitalist. Why? Because the true capitalist make the goverment who makes the rules to ensure the status quo remains. In other words they make sure shyat don't change!

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Judging by your level of knowledge on this issue, which I applaud. I want to somewhat modify your last sentence. Democracy isn't the problem. Democracy is a fallacy here in the states. Democracy is just a way to make people perceive as though 'WE' are in charge. The truth of the matter is Capitalism or Unconstrained Capitalism is the true culprit here. Somethings are just too important to be left in the hands of the market and capitalists. We need to bend our 'unconstrained captilism' toward a more Social Capitalist structure so that the needs and interest of PEOPLE come before business interest. American society is geared so that businesses and corporations succeed and from that the benefits are supposed to trickle down to society.

But here is how effed up this country is. People think the war in Iraq was an attempt by the Government to take Iraq's oil. Naw, if it happened i'm sure Bush and the corporations he represent would be pleased, but they had a planned that was guaranteed to be profitable. This war is nothing more than a transfer of wealth from middle class America to the rich people, represented by their corporations. When we $400 billion appropriated in $80 billion to $100 billion chunks every quarter, that money is NOT going to Iraq or Iraqi citizens. It is going to the military industrial sector. Halliburton, Raytheon, Boeing, all the myriad of corporations who profit from it. For them, that's guaranteed money. If the oil money comes or not! And that is our money, money that could have been used in Katrina, money that could have been used to make our airports safer, or money that could be used to provide people with health care and access to college. When Clinton was in office we had budget surpluses. Do you really think the rich people who control this country were gonna stand idly by while the government gave that money back to society in the form of Social Security, education spending, free health care, better roads and infrastructure, etc., hell no! Those budget surpluses and more is right where they want it, in their backpockets, and they got a tax-cut to boot! Hell who needs Iraq's piddly oil?

Meanwhile, our democracy was busy voting on things like banning gay marriage, abortion, immigration, all of these hot button issues to make us feel like this is a democracy. Hell, I remember for a minute during the Clinton administration's last months, America was debating reducing the work week to 32 hours, corporations were debating the merits of letting people work from home more often, and things like that. Boy that's funny now, the capitalist saw that and said, 'we gotta do something' next thing you know, down goes the towers!

Let me say one thing about capitalism. I believe in constrained capitalism read that a more socialist approach. But for all those dumb-azz american's who believe they are capitalist here is a small education. In capitalism you have three things, the government whose role is reduced in pure capitalism, the capitalist who own the means of production, and the worker who um works. America is a capitalist country, but that doesn't make you a "capitalist", <b>you are a worker!</b> In America the happy people are either in the Government(politicians) or are the Capitalist(major stock owners, business owners, investors, creditors, banks) who own shyat! And no, that doesn't not mean your 20 shares of GM stock makes you a capitalist. You are a worker. America gives you the hope of one day becoming the capitalist, that's what we all strive for, to one day strike it rich, but chances are you will never be the capitalist. Why? Because the true capitalist make the goverment who makes the rules to ensure the status quo remains. In other words they make sure shyat don't change!

You know you a communist dont you? J/k.


WoW! It's rare to meet someone with a real understanding of things. What kills me is the knee jerk liberal reaction to the war. Bush took us to war for oil. And not understanding the true dynamic of the Military industrial complex.

So you have these knee jerk liberals who don't understand the true motivations of things and they are easily dismissed because they are factually wrong. And don't have the knowledege to back up there convictions. I wanted to pull my hair out when Eminem made stomp. Idiot it's not about the oil. It's the distribuiton of wealth.

Now ole Bushy boy just had his recent surge of troops. Now with that there is going to be a need for more military support which will be handled by companies that do that type of thing. We know who they are. So the surge was another big payday for the good ole boys.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

You know you a communist dont you? J/k.




In my legal class a lot of people were calling me that. Its funny in a graduate program at a major university the majority of the people are simply ignorant and cannot think for themselves.

People associate human characteristics with economic theories. So as American's we are supposed to hate communists because they are 'evil', etc., it is so stupid. Communism, captilism, socialism, whatever, it just describes an economic theory. What the government and leaders do are evil. So America is a capitalist society, it doesnt make us evil. It describes how our economy is designed. What makes America evil is dropping a Nuke on Japan, or dropping a laser guided bomb on a Pakastani house occupied by civilians to kill one "terrorist." Communism is just an economic system where the government controls the means of production in simple terms. Whether that government is evil or not depends on their actions. But in this country if you say anything at all against capitalism, you are a communist baaastaad.


In truth though I like Western European society. Sure they got problems but a different sort than us. They are very smart man. They pay a lot of taxes but their people get GREAT services. Man being poor in America and being poor in Western Europe are totally different, lol. They spend a lot of money on their society and nothing on defense, they just get America to defend them lol.

Here is what the rest of the world thinks about Va. Tech shootings from MSNBC:

<b><a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18181477/site/newsweek/">World Views On US Massacre</a></b>

Some outakes:

Australia

"Eleven years ago we took action to limit the availability of guns, and we showed a national resolve that the gun culture that is such a negative in the United States would never become a negative in our country."
—Australian Prime Minister John Howard, expressing sympathy for the victims' families and referring to the 1996 shooting spree by a man with a semi-automatic rifle who killed 35 people in Port Arthur, on the island of Tasmania. Australia banned most types of semi-automatic weapons after the incident.

Asia

"We cannot but worry that [Cho's] shocking atrocity would implant a dark image [of] Koreans in to the brains of Americans and world citizens."
—Editorial in Manhwa Ilbo, Seoul, South Korea



Why can people bring guns to campus? How is it possible that so many innocent people could be killed? How could it happen?"
—Sugiyarti, an Indonesian woman who learned late Tuesday that her 34-year-old stepson, Partahi Lumbantoruan, was among those killed. The family had sold property and a car to finance his civil engineering studies.

"It's not a question of an Indian professor getting killed in the firing. This is related to the American gun laws. We can't do anything about it. It is something which has happened in the United States. They have got to change the law."
—K. Subrahmanyam, a former member of India's National Security Council. India has some 80,000 students in the U.S. One of the Virginia Tech victims was G.V. Loganathan, a 51-year-old lecturer at the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, who came from Chennia, India.

"[The shootings] underscore that fact that in the U.S., a tragedy caused by guns can happen anywhere.... We hope that this will not trigger race-related problems for Asians.... We like to see the U.S. government, Congress and the people strengthen gun-control laws."
—An editorial in the Japanese paper Asahi Shimbun calling for tougher gun controls in the United States

Europe
"Why, we ask, do Americans continue to tolerate gun laws and a culture that seems to condemn thousands of innocents to death every year, when presumably, tougher restrictions, such as those in force in European countries, could at least reduce the number?"
—The Times of London, in an editorial delving into the American psyche and the gun laws across the nation

"It is a delusion … to imagine that controls on their own will stop the rise of gun crime, and the killing that results … what is needed is a wholesale shift in the national culture—and that will take rather longer than an arms ban."
—Mangus Linklater, The Times of London columnist
"There's only one real ‘freedom' in America—the freedom to kill one another… if guns weren't so readily available in the ‘land of the free,' this tragedy might never have happened."
—London's Daily Mail columnist Russell Miller
"There is such a high murder rate in the United States that even if you excluded the deaths caused there by the use of guns, their homicide rate would still be higher than ours. In other words, even if there were not a single gun in America, there would still be more murders and manslaughters than in Britain. Bringing gun control to America would not stop it being a country where a lot of people get killed."
—James Bartholomew, political commentator at the Daily Express in London
"[T]he response of many who wish America ill will have been gratuitous schadenfreude. They see a people who live by the gun also dying by it, be they Marines in Anbar province or students in Virginia…. How can American soldiers disarm Iraqi families of their weapons in Baghdad yet claim the right to arm themselves to the teeth back home?"
—The Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins
"In a country where ‘the right to bear arms' is written into the Constitution and where there are an estimated 192 million firearms, the problem isn't simply one of a particular interest group. After the tragedy, voices rose up to deplore the fact that professors and students are not authorized to arm themselves, since one of them could have neutralized the killer. With that kind of reasoning, America is not close to overcoming its violence."
—Excerpts from an editorial headlined "Tragédie Américaine," in France's Le Monde newspaper
"What is, for us, an archaism remains, for many Americans, a fundamental right, a right to remain armed, which is becoming more and more costly. That is the difference between us and them"
—Pierre Rousselin, from Paris's Le Figaro


I think after the war in Iraq and our brand of justice there along with our War of Terror, and now things like the real view of a decayed society many people around the world are beginning to see this country for what it truly is, a big fraud.

[ilnadmy]

Well duh, I could have told you that America didn't invade Iraq for their oil, and I live in the Middle East, where people automatically assume everyone wants a piece of our crude.

There's big, big business in war. If you check out the trailer for MGS4, you see that the big antagonists in the game are non-governmental, private armies that work for the highest bidder. The way things are going nowadays, I wouldn't be surprised to see something like that in the future. Hell, you have Al Qaeda, which is pretty much funded by one rich guy. I mean f***, Bill Gates could probably put together an army that could take over the world if he wanted to.

Money isn't only made from war, but from the aftermath - the rebuilding of the country. Weren't you a little surprised when American companies got all the contracts to rebuild Iraq? Me neither. And then weren't you surprised to find that Dick Cheney had links in those companies? Yeah, me neither.

America's main problem is the inequality of wealth. It's a great place to live as a rich person, but sucks for the poor. I forget the exact statistic, but I heard that something like 90% of American wealth is concentrated within the richest 10% of the population. Holy crap. In Bahrain, people get free education and free health care. And we don't pay any taxes. And you can fill up your car with gas for $12.5. Now that's living.

Of course oil profits help with those costs, but look at France and other European countries. It sucks, and I mean absolutely blows, to be a rich person in France, because the government taxes almost half your income, but the poor people have a LOT provided for them, the reason being they live in a socialist society where it is expected that the poor will be provided for. It's not like, "Wouldn't it be nice if the poor got something back?" No, it's like, "Why aren't the poor getting more?"

Anyway, I'm going on wild tangents and rambling all over the place, so let me just say...I'm angry at the shooting and wish someone would walk in on Bush and put a few bullets into his office to scare him into some action against guns.

[Glockstar]

That was some...interesting reading there guys.

The following goes off to a totally different subject (yet it pertains to the Va.Tech shootings) but I think it's interesting as well - and, well, I don't know where else to post this...

In Wednesdays Detroit Free Press there was an article - copied and posted below in it's entirety - about one of the Va. Tech shooter's victims - a former Detroiter. They even gave the man - as well as all of the victims - a moment of silence during Tuesdays Tigers/Royals baseball game. What's interesting about the article are the things that people have to say about him...

Former Detroiter among victims
Virginia Tech grad student entertained many sports fans with his insightful blog
By Kathleen Gray and Todd Spangler - Wed. 4/18

Blacksburg, VA - "Estrepe1, check in please"

That message was posted on Motownsports.com at 12:31 p.m. Monday when news began to spread about the deadly shootings at Virginia Tech.

The bloggers who came to know him as estrepe1, or vttiger or BrianB wanted to make sure Brian Bluhm, the blog's cofounder, was safe.

He didn't answer.

Bluhm, a 25-year-old graduate student who developed his love for the Detroit Tigers and other Detroit teams as a boy living in Troy, was in a 9 a.m. hydrology class at Tech's Norris Hall when fellow student Cho Seung-Hui began a rampage that left 32 students and professors dead before Cho killed himself.

Friends, family and fans of his blog learned that Bluhm was among the victims in the hours that followed. Bluhm, the only victim known to have lived in Michigan, was weeks away from graduating with a master's degree in water resources. He also recieved a bachelor's degree in civil engineering at Tech.

A small blue sticky note was posted Tuesday night on the door of his residence hall room. It read: "RIP. May Jesus hold you in his arms."

Before the start of Tuesday's game against the Kansas City Royals, a Detroit Tigers announcer asked for a moment of silence for the shooting victims, mentioning Bluhm. It was the least the team could do, said Rob Matwick, vice president of communications for the Tigers. "We know he was very active in the online community. We felt it was appropriate that we at least remember him with a moment of silence," Matwick said.

Bluhm's parents, Dennis and Beverly Bluhm, moved the family from Troy to Louisville, KY, when Brian was about 7, but his passion for Detroit sports had taken root.

"If you only crossed paths with him once, it probably didn't leave an impression," Bill Ferris, who has known Bluhm for three years, wrote in a posting Tuesday on another Tigers' fan site. "But if you spent any amount of time with him online, he became an instant favorite because Brian was... intelligent, thoughtful, considerate, and polite in all of his postings."

Rick Moses, 25, of Troy rekindled the friendship after finding Bluhm's MySpace.com page.

Moses and Bluhm attended Wass Elementary and played together in Little League.

Moses was unaware Bluhm had remained such a Tigers fan. Then he saw the Web site and Bluhm's nearly 35,000 postings.

The Detroit sports blogosphere Tuesday was full of memories of Bluhm, whoe last entry was about Minnesota Twins outfielder Torii Hunter posted at 3:10 a.m. Monday.

"Anything he wrote, you wanted to know what he was saying because he was always right," said Ferris.

More on Bluhm:
http://detroittigertales.blogspot.com/2007/04/sad-day-for-our-community.html

...we live in different times, don't we folks?

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Yeah it's different times. Sometimes when people just disappear from here I get to wondering what's up with them.

It's crazy how you can develope a real relationship with some one you never really met. Not sure it's healthy or not. But it's real.

[Glockstar]

Sometimes when people just disappear from here I get to wondering what's up with them.

Me too.

[folken001]

I apologize in advance for the morbidity of this post, and if anyone was personally affected by the recent college shooting.

But, was it just me, or did anyone else, when they heard the news that a school shooter had taken out thirty three people, "Wow, he just got the high score."

And I thought the same thing with Columbine, well before they started talking about how the kids liked Doom. It was like "These dudes just got the school-shooting-gallery high-score."

pretty messed up. I think it's even more messed up that you think you should share this with us.

I wonder if you would say the something if one of your family members was the victim and how you would feel if I posted something like this.

And those Koreans, aren't they the country where people keel over dead from playing online videogames for so many hours on end they forget to eat and sleep? I just wonder where they guy got his targetting skills.

And Chinese killed for stolen virtual items.

[Gadfly2317]

pretty messed up. I think it's even more messed up that you think you should share this with us.

I wonder if you would say the something if one of your family members was the victim and how you would feel if I posted something like this.


I guess you missed my other post in this thread were I talked about how I lost a professer I was very close to in a student-shooting (the shooter had a very low score, just 1 point before he shot himself, too.)

I know my style and dark sense of humor is abrasive, but I'm not gonna pull punches in my posting style on the off chance someone might find it insensitive. I put the shooting incident in the context of gaming high scores for many reasons--our culture, gaming culture, our obsession with violence, and to give us as a forum an opportunity to talk about it. If you read the thread, it runs the gamut of emotions and ideas, and that was the point, not to hurt the feelings of the victims families.

[folken001]

I guess you missed my other post in this thread were I talked about how I lost a professer I was very close to in a student-shooting (the shooter had a very low score, just 1 point before he shot himself, too.)

I know my style and dark sense of humor is abrasive, but I'm not gonna pull punches in my posting style on the off chance someone might find it insensitive. I put the shooting incident in the context of gaming high scores for many reasons--our culture, gaming culture, our obsession with violence, and to give us as a forum an opportunity to talk about it. If you read the thread, it runs the gamut of emotions and ideas, and that was the point, not to hurt the feelings of the victims families.
I didn't find your comments as insensitive as it is weird. I just wondered what drove you to think that you should share this with us and, for some reason, that we actually would share your "dark sense of humor".

I am sure giving the "high score" to a korean kid breaking the record by firing over 100 times and murdering over 32 victims on a school campus is just the best way to address your idea. Oh, no feeling will get hurt. No way in hell. Wait, why was Don Imus fired again?

And, the funny thing is, he wasn't as insensitive as you were. Aren't you glad posting in a internet forum isn't a job?

To use shooting incident in the context of gaming high score in THIS incident, u kinda have to establish some kind of connection first. So far, I see none. I guess I could say that Cho dude just went off on those school geeks GTA style. But that would just be another mess up comment to add to this thread.

[Gadfly2317]

I didn't find your comments as insensitive as it is weird. I just wondered what drove you to think that you should share this with us and, for some reason, that we actually would share your "dark sense of humor". Because I know you guys, and plenty of people here are capable of looking at the world through multiple lenses. I know most of you here are smart enough to look at events in complex ways, or ways that might make some people uncomfortable.

I'm not praising school shooters or saying we should want to get high scores, just that a lot of gaming has you running down halls shooting things, you get high scores, you get bonuses for headshots, etc. It's not even important whether this korean kid was a gamer, a lot of school shooters are, and regardless, they do appear to be going for "high scores." I chose to look at the even in the context of "scores" and most everyone here seemed to get that perspective, realizing that we are not mainstream sheep listening to an NBC broadcast but a set of gaming intellectuals mature enough to engage in the conversation.

You remember the artist Karlheinz Stockhausen's who said of the attack on the Twin Towers in New York that it was the worlds "Greatest Work of Art." Do you remember how mad everyone got, and freaked out, and called for his head, and said he was insensitive? That's because most moo-cows in the general public have no brains. A work of art is the creation of a visual image designed to evoke a response. Stockhausen was an artist, and so he chose to look at the event from the perspective of art, and there's little doubt that the terrorists intentionally created a visual image with that attack that completely changed the world much more so than an attack that may have killed more people but didn't create such a striking visual image.

Now, was Stockhausen praising the attacks? No. He was simply commenting on how powerful the visual images were that were created by the attacks (which were intentionally done where they would be easily filmed.) When looking at the world with a creative mind, you try to look at events from multiple perspectives. This is how "thinking" works. Most people are trained to respond, think, and view things from a single perspective. In essense, your brain has been potty-trained, and drained of all power of original thought.

Wait, why was Don Imus fired again?

And, the funny thing is, he wasn't as insensitive as you were. Aren't you glad posting in a internet forum isn't a job? Don Imus said something that I personally considered just plain stupid, not thought provoking, but he was fired because his employers are cowards. He'd said stupid things before to entertain his stupid audience.

But lets remember a SMART guy who got fired. Bill Maher is one of the funniest, most insightful political commentators in the media (now on HBO.) But back to 9/11, remember when he got fired from ABC for saying the terrorists were "not cowards?" He was not praising what the terrorists did, but everyone from the president on down were calling the 9/11 terrorists cowards while calling our boys "heros" for launching missiles on Afghanis from thousands of feet in the air. All Maher was saying was that, really, it is not an act of cowardice to fly a plane into a building, even if it is a despicable, awful act. He was trying to keep the conversation REAL and honest, whereas most of the US would prefer to live in its soft, mythic bubble of simple good and evil.

But Bill Maher, one of the brightest, bravest voices on television, was fired because the world is filled with simpering sub-intellectual sheep like you Folken, and the advertisers want to keep stupid little bed-wetters like you happy and buying their products.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Don Imus said something that I personally considered just plain stupid, not thought provoking, but he was fired because his employers are cowards. He'd said stupid things before to entertain his stupid audience.

But lets remember a SMART guy who got fired. Bill Maher is one of the funniest, most insightful political commentators in the media (now on HBO.) But back to 9/11, remember when he got fired from ABC for saying the terrorists were "not cowards?" He was not praising what the terrorists did, but everyone from the president on down were calling the 9/11 terrorists cowards while calling our boys "heros" for launching missiles on Afghanis from thousands of feet in the air. All Maher was saying was that, really, it is not an act of cowardice to fly a plane into a building, even if it is a despicable, awful act. He was trying to keep the conversation REAL and honest, whereas most of the US would prefer to live in its soft, mythic bubble of simple good and evil.

But Bill Maher, one of the brightest, bravest voices on television, was fired because the world is filled with simpering sub-intellectual sheep like you Folken, and the advertisers want to keep stupid little bed-wetters like you happy and buying their products.


Which is NOT on morning public radio or tv. I live in NJ and listen to 660 all the time though I prefer 1050, because 660 is a very bigoted station. Anyway, you can put Don Imus and Bill Maher in the same boat, they are very much two sides of the same coin. They both are political satirist and both float on a razor's edge of racial, gender, and religous topics. Bill Maher is an atheist and Don Imus is a racist. Should either of them be censored? No. Should either of them be on morning public airwaves? No. Bill Maher is on HBO doing his thing and apologizing to no one. Imus should have been fired, but that doesn't mean he can't or shouldn't go and get his own cable program or do a internet broadcast or whatever.

And for people who think what Imus said is acceptable. The question becomes what kind of society do we want? Imus called a group of high achieving black students ho's on public radio and a TV news channel. So is that what kind of society we want? How would any of you like it if your child was on stage at a high school recital or talent show or drama performance and people started calling her a dirty white ho' or if your son was playing a ball game and someone called him a gay c*ck sucker? When does it stop, if Imus can go after achieving college students, what is next? High schoolers, middle schoolers, day care?

Now a lot of ignorant white people listen to Imus. I can just see a group of coward azz white kids on the subway here in NY or somewhere call a black girl a nappy head ho' because Imus did it, next thing you know, you got three dead white kids. Imus is a sophisticated individual, most of America is NOT. Our kids cannot handle this kind of dialogue. Already we have seen Colombine kids who felt ostracized and picked on(and they were white), now this young Korean man who was picked on in high school. If we tolerate racial and gender attacks at the highest level there is gonna be a lot of violence at the street level, there is already enough violence in this country, we don't need to be going backward.

If people want to entertain themselves with race, gender, ethnic, and religious jokes, then go buy a ticket, buy a book, buy a dvd, watch a late night cable show. Hell I just watched Smokin' Aces the other night, all kinds of race and gender humor, but I rented the DVD, that's how freedom of speech should works. Nobody is saying you can't say it you just can't do it in every forum.

Oh and for the ill-informed white people who always want to know WHEN can I call a black person a name, WHEN can I call a mexican a name? Its easy, go down to Brooklyn about 8pm in the evening, when everybody is out on the streets, and call a black girl a Nappy Head Ho. If you leave in one piece or alive, then you can use the word. Go to East L.A. and call a mexican woman some racial slur, if they find your body, its okay to use that word.

Now I'm black I hear Italians and Irish guys jokin' around calling each other names all day.
But I don't want to join in, that's their thing. Why would I presume that I understand their culture and I can be down with them? So its real simple, if you want to man enough to use racial slurs, then be man enough to use them everywhere. Or just continue to be a coward.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

After the Imus thing it was a lot of talk that if certain words are used in Hip Hop and movies why can't Imus say it. I've had people say this to me in real life and it blew my mind.

First in the "American" language we have many words that have more than one meaning. For better or worse Nigga has become one of those words. I think it's more of a culture issue now than a racial one. KRS-ONE a few years ago said in song "we've got white kids calling themselves niggas"

I went to a Jay Z concert and it was Crazy seeing literally seeing thousand of people chant along to "Jigga my Nigga" and the funny part about that he put the mic up in the air on that part telling them to say that. Now at this concert it was mostly white people there and he saw it. But the word didn't take the negative conatations it's associated with.

In hiphop it's not the same. I'm not saying this is right or wrong My mother never wants to hear that word and to this day if I say it around her she would hit me and I'm ** years old.

Now hearing Imus say it is totally different (granted he didn't say the N word) it's not fair it's not neccasirly right but the fact is it's different. And not just because he's white he isn't part of the culture. And it wasn't comedic satire it was an attack. And so I really don't feel bad he was fired. Know I wasn't marching the streets for him to be fired but I thought it was ok that he was. Now when he inevitably get's his next job no big deal.

Now on the other hand a few years ago John Madden made comment about black guys being better atheletes and something about a mother wanting to have big black babbies. And he lost his CBS job. I thought that was crazy it obivously it wasn't racist it was just how he saw the situation (which let's face it. It's not far from the truth) insensititive maybe. But it was over reaction.

Same with the Rush Limbaugh comments about Donovan Mcnabb. But the thing is we don't live in a vacume there is a history with this country. And it's not going to just be "gotten over" and right now our society is dealing with the reprucussiions of it's history. Hopefully we move past it one day. But right now we aren't there.

[Gadfly2317]

You guys really make me happy. . . I know the "high score" thing was an excuse to start an off-gaming topic thread, but I like listening to you express your thoughts on the culture at large, of which gaming is a part of. For example, the last two posts in this thread were great.

I just ask Folken--and sorry for insulting you--re-read this thread with an open mind. It's been a good one, I think.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Now hearing Imus say it is totally different (granted he didn't say the N word) it's not fair it's not neccasirly right but the fact is it's different. And not just because he's white he isn't part of the culture. And it wasn't comedic satire it was an attack. And so I really don't feel bad he was fired. Know I wasn't marching the streets for him to be fired but I thought it was ok that he was. Now when he inevitably get's his next job no big deal.



LOL yeah the Imus thing was a straight out attack that was indefensible. But what killed me was the ignorant things I heard black and white people saying on CNN and other news shows. I think mixing up what Imus said into hip-hop is all wrong. This is a cultural thing and if you aren't in the culture, don't try and be. The funny thing is I have had white friends, white girls friends, who WERE down, and they knew what they could and couldn't say, so even if you are white and down with black people, you know there are <i>still</i> things you can't say.

But what was killin' me was people saying black people call each that and worse all the time. That is so WRONG. I don't go over my friends house and say "whaddup how's your nappy headed girls doin'?" No sane black person would've used those terms in that situation about those girls! Now would a black person use those terms yes, have I yes. Example, if I was in a strip club and black chick had a weave that was jacked up, I might say to my boy "look at that nappy headed ho." If we were in the same situation and my boy was white and he said that, it would be TOTALLY appropriate. Even if Imus or anybody wanted to call Janet Jackson a nappy headed ho' I think he coulda got away with it. You pull your bra off on TV, you open yourself up to that criticism. Just like Britney Spears running around showin her snatch! Nobody would have cared if anybody called her a white whatever, matter of fact many did. But you can't go to a high school football game and then call the cheerleaders this and that, at least not as a parent, i'm sure other school kids do, but they are in the culture.

Anyway if you aren't down, don't try to be down, that goes for any race. I watch the Soprano's, a show I find to very bigoted, but I enjoy it anyway, I expose myself to it. But just cause I watch the Soprano's and I hear all of these Italian slurs that they use amongst themselves, doesn't give me license to think i'm down and start using them! Plus, there is CONTEXT in that show, there are times when they call their women names and times when they don't. So calling for the end of rap or censoring rap is crazy, you can't sensor a culture. Should rap be played on the radio in the morning full of curse words and racial slurs NOPE. Only one station I know of does that, Hot 97 in NY, they just don't give a F. I wouldn't shed a tear if that station got banned like Imus.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

You guys really make me happy. . . I know the "high score" thing was an excuse to start an off-gaming topic thread, but I like listening to you express your thoughts on the culture at large, of which gaming is a part of. For example, the last two posts in this thread were great.

I just ask Folken--and sorry for insulting you--re-read this thread with an open mind. It's been a good one, I think.

Most of America doesn't get it. This same view was stated by several European news articles. Almost exactly. The theme was people get gunned down here everyday, why is there an outrage only when the number is high.

The sad thing is how soon all of this is forgotten. Most people's view is "Man i'm glad that's over, I hope it never happens again." That's stupid, it is happening every damn day! The people who have it all backwards are the ones with their hair on fire over Va. Tech., yes it is sad, but no more sadder than everyday someone losing someone they love to a stupid gun, all so some needle d*ck idiot can feel a nice piece of steel in his hands.

[Gadfly2317]

Bill Maher and Don Imus are right were they belong. Which is NOT on morning public radio or tv. I live in NJ and listen to 660 all the time though I prefer 1050, because 660 is a very bigoted station. Anyway, you can put Don Imus and Bill Maher in the same boat, they are very much two sides of the same coin. They both are political satirist and both float on a razor's edge of racial, gender, and religous topics. Bill Maher is an atheist and Don Imus is a racist. Should either of them be censored? No. Should either of them be on morning public airwaves? No.

I have to disagree with you big time here. And I mean BIG TIME, to the core of what is rotten in our society.

Racism, ignorance and bigotry are one thing, and I can understand that not being supported.

But you are saying Bill Maher shouldn't be on the public air waves because he is an atheist or thinks outside of the left/right political box? Because he espoused unpopular political ideas? Thing is, this NEEDS to be on the public airwaves MORE than just about anything else. Remember our republic is partially founded on Thomas Jefferson's concept of "the free marketplace of ideas?"

What we have now are little ghettos of ideas, where everyone can safely tune into a media source that supports their worldview. We can all safely turn into the blog, station, or paper that supports our narrow world view. All Bill Maher now gets by being on HBO is people who agree with him already and who can afford HBO. He used to have an audience on the public airwaves who might flip by and get drawn in to an intereresting, thought provoking discusion. People NEED MORE opportunities to be exposed to new or unconventional ideas.

And I'm sorry, but criticizing religious beliefs or political ideas is not bigotry and cannot be compared to calling someone "nappy headed" which is an insult of a person's very being, their genetic-self which cannot be changed like a belief or an idea can. Beliefs of any kind--whether you are a flying saucer cultist, think crystals cure cancer, or believe bread and wine turns into the body of a dead guy-- can and should be held up to the light of reason, and the fact that our society (and the powers that control most media) is afraid to do so is at the core of why our society is in decline.

We NEED guys like Bill Maher on NBC, ABC, FOX and on mainstream shows, as hosts, as guests. . . but no, all we get in our media, for the most part, are safe little soundbites from a tiny class of chattering morons.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

I have to disagree with you big time here. And I mean BIG TIME, to the core of what is rotten in our society.

Racism, ignorance and bigotry are one thing, and I can understand that not being supported.

But you are saying Bill Maher shouldn't be on the public air waves because he is an atheist or thinks outside of the left/right political box? Because he espoused unpopular political ideas? Thing is, this NEEDS to be on the public airwaves MORE than just about anything else. Remember our republic is partially founded on Thomas Jefferson's concept of "the free marketplace of ideas?"

What we have now are little ghettos of ideas, where everyone can safely tune into a media source that supports their worldview. We can all safely turn into the blog, station, or paper that supports our narrow world view. All Bill Maher now gets by being on HBO is people who agree with him already and who can afford HBO. He used to have an audience on the public airwaves who might flip by and get drawn in to an intereresting, thought provoking discusion. People NEED MORE opportunities to be exposed to new or unconventional ideas.

And I'm sorry, but criticizing religious beliefs or political ideas is not bigotry and cannot be compared to calling someone "nappy headed" which is an insult of a person's very being, their genetic-self which cannot be changed like a belief or an idea can. Beliefs of any kind--whether you are a flying saucer cultist, think crystals cure cancer, or believe bread and wine turns into the body of a dead guy-- can and should be held up to the light of reason, and the fact that our society (and the powers that control most media) is afraid to do so is at the core of why our society is in decline.

We NEED guys like Bill Maher on NBC, ABC, FOX and on mainstream shows, as hosts, as guests. . . but no, all we get in our media, for the most part, are safe little soundbites from a tiny class of chattering morons.


I watch his show every week. I'd vote him for President if he ran, well at least over Bush lol. But seriously does he belong on CBS radio? No. I wouldn't let my 13 y.o. listen Bill Maher and I don't think he should be on radio or tv. Plus, I'd bet Bill Maher is happier being on HBO where he can and does say whatever he wants. He wouldn't be the same if he had to water down his content for network TV or broadcast radio.

Now you say that all Bill Maher gets is "people who agree with him." I doubt that seriously. Listen I was a regular Imus listener on 660 WFAN. Not because I like or agree with Imus, but so I can see and hear what the "enemy" is thinking. When I was in Michigan, I use to listen Rush Limhog for the same reason. And people who hate the things Maher says are also listening, i'd bet his biggest viewer is George Bush himself or Cheney.

Next you say criticizing people's religous beliefs is not bigotry. The problem is there are a whole bunch of religous people who feel that way. Bigotry cannot be defined by the bigot, it is the person being hurt. I think Jewish people are highly sensitive, but they don't feel that way. I'm not Jewish, so I have to believe them and be considerate of their feelings. I think you can have your eyes opened to a lot of things without having to step on people. And I think if someone is saying they feel hurt by something, you have to belief them.

But overall I think the main thing is to NOT censor. Obviously there are Jewish jokes, black jokes, women jokes, gay jokes, handicap jokes, French jokes, all kinds of offensive stuff in some of the best movies and music and books in our media. I think that is great. And people can seek those things out and be entertained or educated. But in terms of public space for the better of society there must be a higher standard. If that is tolerated, then before long it will be in our restaurants, cinemas, on our subways, buses, trains, airplanes, it will just degrade the level of civility in society. People aren't ignorant. I know racists exists. When I get on an airplane I know there are a handful of people who hate blacks, a handful who hate jews, a handful who hate gays, a handful who hate whites, but no matter who or what we hate. We still sit next to each other and keep those views in our heads. If we loosen our standards this stuff will spill into the streets. And believe nobody views are being changed in terms of someone listening to Bill Maher and then changing their life. Listen Imus was a bigot 30 years ago, he still is, and he will be tomorrow. A black surgeon could give him a heart transplant and he'd still be a bigot. People, adults, are for the most part not gonna change. But our kids can and that is who's ears we really need to be protecting.

[Gadfly2317]

I watch his show every week. I'd vote him for President if he ran, well at least over Bush lol. But seriously does he belong on CBS radio? No. I wouldn't let my 13 y.o.
I think his show is more fun on HBO too, where he can use whatever language he likes, but the content of his ideas hasn't changed, and those ideas should be out there on the public airwaves.

Next you say criticizing people's religous beliefs is not bigotry. The problem is there are a whole bunch of religous people who feel that way. Bigotry cannot be defined by the bigot, it is the person being hurt. I think Jewish people are highly sensitive

People having their feelings hurt because you hold their ideas up to the light of reason and demand that those ideas and beliefs be subject to critical thought processes. . . that's their problem. They have a right to defend their beliefs and I have a right to analyze those beliefs.

You cite the Jewish example, which is always a hard one because they define themselves as both a race and a religion. But ANY belief, not just religion, should be able to stand up to the light of reason. The scientific process can be applied to your spiritual life, and you can live a spiritual life without espousing illogical, dangerous and strange dogmas that exist in all the ancient religions, especially the three most dangerous ones, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.

The problem is, leftist PC thought which has tried to banish criticism of its own dogmas has now set up a situation where we as a society now look at it as "out of bounds" to criticize religious beliefs. If I said the world were flat, you would look at me crazy, and you would most certainly denounce my belief. Beliefs MUST be fair game.

Criticizing someone for being black, gay, female or whatever. . . just good old fashioned bigotry against someone who is genetically different than you is bigotry. But not all beliefs are created equal, and for society to grow, we must be able to hold ALL beliefs up to the light of reason. And all topics are fair game, including the debate on the definition of cowardice vs. bravery that got Bill Maher fired.

Pretty cool conversation TMG.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

I think his show is more fun on HBO too, where he can use whatever language he likes, but the content of his ideas hasn't changed, and those ideas should be out there on the public airwaves.



People having their feelings hurt because you hold their ideas up to the light of reason and demand that those ideas and beliefs be subject to critical thought processes. . . that's their problem. They have a right to defend their beliefs and I have a right to analyze those beliefs.

You cite the Jewish example, which is always a hard one <b>because they define themselves as both a race and a religion.</b> But ANY belief, not just religion, should be able to stand up to the light of reason. The scientific process can be applied to your spiritual life, and you can live a spiritual life without espousing illogical, dangerous and strange dogmas that exist in all the ancient religions, especially the three most dangerous ones, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.

The problem is, leftist PC thought which has tried to banish criticism of its own dogmas has now set up a situation where we as a society now look at it as "out of bounds" to criticize religious beliefs. If I said the world were flat, you would look at me crazy, and you would most certainly denounce my belief. Beliefs MUST be fair game.

Criticizing someone for being black, gay, female or whatever. . . just good old fashioned bigotry against someone who is genetically different than you is bigotry. But not all beliefs are created equal, and for society to grow, we must be able to hold ALL beliefs up to the light of reason. And all topics are fair game, including the debate on the definition of cowardice vs. bravery that got Bill Maher fired.

Pretty cool conversation TMG.

Yeah the Jewish thing is tough. Because of what you said which I highlighted and also because they are very sensitive and pull the J-card much more than we pull the Black Card. But they are soo sensitive yet control a lot of the media which puts out the offensive material. They profit from insensitivity yet rail against it when they feel the sting. They also racially discriminate in terms of hiring and employment, even more than regular whites. I think to a certain degree every community or culture that is a minority needs to try and be better. We can sit around and just cry about how we were treated and we need higher standards in our own communities.

But I agree with you 100%. If Bill had a public show or a network TV show or even a Meet The Press-esque show, where he wasn't using profanity or slurs, but still gave his views on these subjects, I think that should be allowed 100%. Not only that, but I agree with you, that is what TV/Radio needs. I mean every Sunday I watch Meet The Press or Face The Nation or McGlaughin, hey you know one of those shows can go to make room for someone with a different thought process.

So I do agree with you. We should be able to have discussions in public about these sensitive topics and we need to do. And if someone is spittin' some knowledge and it hurts your feelings, too damn bad! I wholeheartedly agree with you there. I just thought you meant all the other stuff that Bill Maher says that is not appropriate for civil dialogue, but funny as hell.

Let me just add about Imus. I use to listen and a lot of the stuff on that show was funny as hell. And I think it is a very entertaining show and if he was on HBO i'd be cool with that, but what he said, where he said it, no not cool. I think Imus would benefit from being on cable and I wouldn't be surprised to see him turn up with a late night show, its certainly room for someone else entertaining on late night.

[joquito]

As much as I dislike Don Imus (I wish he hadn't been fired), at least he wears his bias on his sleeve. If only people would recognize NPR as being just as biased as FOX News. When it comes to discussing religion in the public arena, most religious folk enter the debate at a disadvantage. The opposing side typically is biased against religion, yet waves a "Reason" and "Knowledge" flag, as if they truly weigh all options equally. Both are biased yet only one side reveals theirs.

When it comes to race, I blame the media more than anything. National Newspapers love to quote Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson as if they speak on behalf of even most blacks, yet print an op-ed about how many blacks don't agree with Sharpton/Jackson.

Race Tidbit of the day:

Colleges and Universities use afirmative action to bring in more men (primarily white males) to keep the girl/boy ratios closer. Otherwise, campuses would be roughly 80/20 women to men. This has been going on for years.

[PapaSmurf]

My campus is about 70/30 women to men as opposed to the school I transferred from which was the total opposite. I get the feeling not alot of women are applying there anyways though.

Pretty interesting discussion going on here. I'm not in the mood to talk politics though, but when I am I'll let my opinions be known, that of which there are many.

[ilnadmy]

My campus is about 70/30 women to men as opposed to the school I transferred from which was the total opposite.

You sly fox.

[Gamer88]

Well duh, I could have told you that America didn't invade Iraq for their oil, and I live in the Middle East, where people automatically assume everyone wants a piece of our crude.

There's big, big business in war. If you check out the trailer for MGS4, you see that the big antagonists in the game are non-governmental, private armies that work for the highest bidder. The way things are going nowadays, I wouldn't be surprised to see something like that in the future. Hell, you have Al Qaeda, which is pretty much funded by one rich guy. I mean f***, Bill Gates could probably put together an army that could take over the world if he wanted to.

Money isn't only made from war, but from the aftermath - the rebuilding of the country. Weren't you a little surprised when American companies got all the contracts to rebuild Iraq? Me neither. And then weren't you surprised to find that Dick Cheney had links in those companies? Yeah, me neither.

America's main problem is the inequality of wealth. It's a great place to live as a rich person, but sucks for the poor. I forget the exact statistic, but I heard that something like 90% of American wealth is concentrated within the richest 10% of the population. Holy crap. In Bahrain, people get free education and free health care. And we don't pay any taxes. And you can fill up your car with gas for $12.5. Now that's living.

Of course oil profits help with those costs, but look at France and other European countries. It sucks, and I mean absolutely blows, to be a rich person in France, because the government taxes almost half your income, but the poor people have a LOT provided for them, the reason being they live in a socialist society where it is expected that the poor will be provided for. It's not like, "Wouldn't it be nice if the poor got something back?" No, it's like, "Why aren't the poor getting more?"

Anyway, I'm going on wild tangents and rambling all over the place, so let me just say...I'm angry at the shooting and wish someone would walk in on Bush and put a few bullets into his office to scare him into some action against guns.

Actually, someone from my homecity already tryied to put a few bullets into his office...its about the only thing evansville was ever known for. One of the accountants in our city (I knew some people that actually went to him for their taxes) went nuts, and ran up on the white house one year and fired a few rounds. Anyone else remember that?

[Gamer88]

My campus is about 70/30 women to men as opposed to the school I transferred from which was the total opposite. I get the feeling not alot of women are applying there anyways though.

Pretty interesting discussion going on here. I'm not in the mood to talk politics though, but when I am I'll let my opinions be known, that of which there are many.

My campus is more women than men, by a slight margin.

My college is also the fastest growing campus in the U.S.

What college do I go to?

haha, I actually have trouble finding statistics that my college is the fastest-growing one in the U.S., im starting to think they just make that up.

but if you can guess it based on that information, than I guess it would be.

I love it how people always state their political beliefs as if they are completely original and unique from everyone elses, and as if their viewpoint is somehow enlightened beyond the normal citizen. I hate it, because people like this tend to spew out the same damn rhetoric, and it gets old.

It's like the socialist girl in your english or speech class that wants to do papers or speechs on how people shouldn't be as judgemental, and how being judgemental is bad. Sadly, I have witnessed a attempted speech on this very topic. How boring is that? Anyone else want to hear a speech on the benefits of being judgemental? That would be an interesting speech.

Curious, is anyone on these forums a political analyst? or majoring in political science?

Not that those things are necessary to be politically aware, but it does lend some degree of credibility to an arguement.

Jews are a hard one, I knocked off points on two tests in high school (will never forget) for failing to see them both as a race and a religion. When Borat came out, a few people I knew claim that they had a jewish heritage, and were thus "Jews" (even though their heritage was 6 generations+ down the line) and they were thus offended by the movie and refused to watch it. That just pissed me off. I think I rained on their parade though when I told him that Sacha Baren Cohen himself was a Jew.

My sister is in high school, and I told her a fun report and stance would be to try to argue that the holocaust didn't occur to the extent the Allies in WW2 claim it did. I gave her several websites and databases to help her out. Unfortunately for her, she found out her teacher was a jew (once again racially,not religously), and her teacher is taking a lot of offense to her research paper. Regardless, my sister is still doing the paper, and she will probably not get the best of scores, and she will probably take it to the higher authority. I love America.

Oh yeah, where do you all stand on the holocaust, since we are talking about Jews?

[ilnadmy]

I don't think being a political analyst necessarily adds more credibility to your statements, as long as you are well-versed in current events and have critical thinking skills. Many political analysts are themselves politically motivated, which adds a tinge of bias into their reports and opinions, so I don't really put all that much stock into what they say (although many of them do make very good points on a regular basis).

As for the Nazi holocaust, that's a touchy issue to discuss in America, and in the Western world in general. I personally think it did occur, and probably to the same extent that research seems to point to (~6 million killed), but I think it's being milked waaay too much in the public discourse. In fact, it's considered such a sacred issue that in 13 countries in Europe it's actually illegal to say that the Nazi holocaust did not occur. The historian David Irving was actually jailed in (I think) Austria for his writings on this topic. I don't see why this issue should be such a taboo, honestly. In the Rwanda genocide the bodies piled up 3 times faster than they did in Nazi extermination camps, Stalin's various purges and ethnic cleanings operations killed around 20 million (with a further estimated 10 million deaths due to the government-engineered famine in Ukraine), and many, many killings going on every day in our current world (Iraq, Palestine, India-Pakistan, Brazil, Russia, Sri Lanka, and the list goes on). And yet, none of these issues is met with the same status as the Nazi holocaust, which I find quite troubling.

Same thing happened with the VTech shootings. 32 American college students dead and it's on the front page of every newspaper from California to Nagasaki, and yet the following day 200 people were killed by a car bomb in Baghdad and it barely makes a little box underneath an underwear ad. Quite frankly, it seems like the world media (and people in general) value some lives more than others, and this is generally based on (surprise surprise) ethnic and socio-economic grounds. Very sad, to say the least.

[Gamer88]

I don't think being a political analyst necessarily adds more credibility to your statements, as long as you are well-versed in current events and have critical thinking skills. Many political analysts are themselves politically motivated, which adds a tinge of bias into their reports and opinions, so I don't really put all that much stock into what they say (although many of them do make very good points on a regular basis).

In my opinion, if im talking politics, then I assume that you are well-versed in current events, and have critical thinking skills. That shouldn't be considered something rare, it should be considered the bare minimum required to even have a political discussion. I think political analyst and political science majors definatly get a nod of credibility because they have devoted a large portion of their life (and not just leisure time, they devote their careers to it!) to political science. I know political analyst typically have bias, but who doesn't? I just wish one of the major news stations would just come out and say "Hey, we are unfair and not at all balanced, we are going to show the news from a slightly **** perspective, because if we didn't, we would have no debates, and lack the personality that adds entertainment to this informative programming"



As for the Nazi holocaust, that's a touchy issue to discuss in America, and in the Western world in general. I personally think it did occur, and probably to the same extent that research seems to point to (~6 million killed), but I think it's being milked waaay too much in the public discourse. In fact, it's considered such a sacred issue that in 13 countries in Europe it's actually illegal to say that the Nazi holocaust did not occur. The historian David Irving was actually jailed in (I think) Austria for his writings on this topic. I don't see why this issue should be such a taboo, honestly. In the Rwanda genocide the bodies piled up 3 times faster than they did in Nazi extermination camps, Stalin's various purges and ethnic cleanings operations killed around 20 million (with a further estimated 10 million deaths due to the government-engineered famine in Ukraine), and many, many killings going on every day in our current world (Iraq, Palestine, India-Pakistan, Brazil, Russia, Sri Lanka, and the list goes on). And yet, none of these issues is met with the same status as the Nazi holocaust, which I find quite troubling.

While I disagree about the holocaust (I don't deny it happened, I just don't think it happened to the extent claimed), I do agree that regardless of the holocaust the media and public should focus more on the genocides of today, rather than the nazi holocaust.


Same thing happened with the VTech shootings. 32 American college students dead and it's on the front page of every newspaper from California to Nagasaki, and yet the following day 200 people were killed by a car bomb in Baghdad and it barely makes a little box underneath an underwear ad. Quite frankly, it seems like the world media (and people in general) value some lives more than others, and this is generally based on (surprise surprise) ethnic and socio-economic grounds. Very sad, to say the least.

What would you propose? That the media proportionalizes the way they tell stories based on the mathematical figures?
My friend is about to go to Iraq, he was the first to tell me about that bombing, but even he didn't think anything about Virginia Tech shadowing it. I mean, I don't know how it is in the rest of the world, but the public isn't paying as close attention to Iraq as they used to. Sad yes, but it was a little more shocking that a single man killed 32 students with handguns on a relatively violent free campus rather than 200 people die from a roadside bomb in one of the most dangerous places on the planet....I mean come on?

[PapaSmurf]

My campus is more women than men, by a slight margin.

My college is also the fastest growing campus in the U.S.

What college do I go to?

haha, I actually have trouble finding statistics that my college is the fastest-growing one in the U.S., im starting to think they just make that up.

but if you can guess it based on that information, than I guess it would be.

I love it how people always state their political beliefs as if they are completely original and unique from everyone elses, and as if their viewpoint is somehow enlightened beyond the normal citizen. I hate it, because people like this tend to spew out the same damn rhetoric, and it gets old.

It's like the socialist girl in your english or speech class that wants to do papers or speechs on how people shouldn't be as judgemental, and how being judgemental is bad. Sadly, I have witnessed a attempted speech on this very topic. How boring is that? Anyone else want to hear a speech on the benefits of being judgemental? That would be an interesting speech.

Curious, is anyone on these forums a political analyst? or majoring in political science?

Not that those things are necessary to be politically aware, but it does lend some degree of credibility to an arguement.

Jews are a hard one, I knocked off points on two tests in high school (will never forget) for failing to see them both as a race and a religion. When Borat came out, a few people I knew claim that they had a jewish heritage, and were thus "Jews" (even though their heritage was 6 generations+ down the line) and they were thus offended by the movie and refused to watch it. That just pissed me off. I think I rained on their parade though when I told him that Sacha Baren Cohen himself was a Jew.

My sister is in high school, and I told her a fun report and stance would be to try to argue that the holocaust didn't occur to the extent the Allies in WW2 claim it did. I gave her several websites and databases to help her out. Unfortunately for her, she found out her teacher was a jew (once again racially,not religously), and her teacher is taking a lot of offense to her research paper. Regardless, my sister is still doing the paper, and she will probably not get the best of scores, and she will probably take it to the higher authority. I love America.

Oh yeah, where do you all stand on the holocaust, since we are talking about Jews?

Don't know if you were talking to me there or not, but I don't recall saying anything of the sort and it would be dumb for me to say so because all the information I get is from other sources as it is.

Regarding you're holocaust views. I can't agree with you. I don't know if you've been to any holocaust museums or not, but I've been to two, one in California and the other in Washington D.C. A holocaust survivor actually gave us a speech at the one in California oh so many years ago. I'm not quite sure I understand your stance on this as you say you don't believe it happened quite on the level the Allies claimed it happen, but you admit it happened. The vibe I'm getting from you is that the museums we have in the U.S. about this very subject are over elaborated and maybe the "survivor" that talked to me was a paid actress to make it seem like it was really bad? You'll have to clarify this up for me as those museums have some pretty graphic pictures. The museum I went to in D.C. this previous year gave us a lecture about the happening in Dafur too, this is while I was still at USNA.

Ilna and you are right about focusing on happenings today and how other genocides haven't had as much press as the holocaust, but just because other bad event have happened since doesn't make what happened to the Jews any less important. In a Naval History class I took last semester my the Commander teaching that class told us a military general ordered pictures to be taken as soon as they found out what was going on so that the world would never forget what happened there. Now you have people like Mel Gibson's father saying it never happened, and people like you downplaying what happened. Now you haven't presented evidence to support your claim so maybe what you're saying is true, but you'd need some staunch support to downplay something like that.

Btw this whole jew heritage and religion things. I've been taking religion classes all my life and I find out on a forum that Judaism is both a religion and race? Man no wonder I've been so confused when dealing with some Catholics who claim they are both Jew and Catholic. I'm like you can't be two religions!? Actually maybe my former belief was correct. I remember having a discussion about this in a class where a kid was exactly that and we all thought it was ridiculous, even the teach (a nun). Hmm. I'd hate to google something like this as there are probably loads of BS on the subject. Is there any concret information to support either side. I would think a nun would know her ****.

Also regarding being major's in political science or being a political analyst. I don't agree with you're stance on their knowledge either. Sure some of them might devote there life to the cause, but I would say I'm as knowledgable as a lot of them. Having some knowledge of the happenings in our country is important and should be bare minimum for the conversation as you said, but I would say the lot of us on this forum take some significant time reading about what's going on in the world and our past. I don't need to be a poly sci major to give the best opinion or have the best knowledge on the subject. I'm not a science or pre-med major, but as long as I take the right classes in my stead here in college I can go to med-school just fine and maybe even do better as the kids who did take those majors. I've taken a poly sci course are two. The teachers while insightful are very biased. They'll tell you somethings you don't know, but at the same time not really give you the other side of the story, at least when they teach in class. Funny that they operate like that, because when you right that 15 to20 page paper for them, all they want is for you is to take stance and defend the hell out of it, yet I see nothing of the sort from them when they teach in class. Every poly sci teacher probably isn't like that, but thats my experience. I assume you watch the news. You can't honestly tell me every political analyst you see come on has some sort of divine speech. Just watch Fox News tonight, of course that's my own bias right there.

I'm going to go back and play videogames. I don't have class today.

[ilnadmy]

My friend is about to go to Iraq, he was the first to tell me about that bombing, but even he didn't think anything about Virginia Tech shadowing it. I mean, I don't know how it is in the rest of the world, but the public isn't paying as close attention to Iraq as they used to. Sad yes, but it was a little more shocking that a single man killed 32 students with handguns on a relatively violent free campus rather than 200 people die from a roadside bomb in one of the most dangerous places on the planet....I mean come on?

I find it more shocking that a single car bomb exploded in a marketplace and killed 200 people rather than a guy shooting up a school in a country where you can legally purchase a semi-automatic handgun from your friendly neighborhood grocer. I'm sorry but I don't share your view that lives are more valuable in countries where there is less violence; the life of an Iraqi child is just as valuable as the life of an American child, and yet the world media seems to ignore this fact.

Ilna and you are right about focusing on happenings today and how other genocides haven't had as much press as the holocaust, but just because other bad event have happened since doesn't make what happened to the Jews any less important.

I'm not saying that makes it any less important, but I'm saying that it's used as a sort of media weapon. I mean, when you say "The Holocaust" people assume you're talking about the Nazi holocaust, when "holocaust" is an English word that has nothing to do with any specific genocide. Sometimes "The Holocaust" is used as an excuse for Israel's actions, mainly by arguing that whatever course of action they decide to take is justified because they don't want another "Holocaust"; in order to prevent other people from killing them on a mass scale, they are justified in preemptively killing others on a large scale. I find that logic quite ludicrous.

I don't have anything against the Nazi holocaust (the actual historical event). I think it happened, and I don't disagree with the figures floated around. But I do have an issue with the way the event is used as an ideological shield against criticism.

[Glockstar]

And it wasn't comedic satire it was an attack.

yeah the Imus thing was a straight out attack that was indefensible.

BS. That is where you guys are wrong.

[folken001]

BS. That is where you guys are wrong.
I agree.

[Mochan]

I have nothing to contribute to this long political discussion right now, but regarding the movie Borat, borat is the Filipino word for penis dirt.

[Gamer88]

[QUOTE=PapaSmurf]Don't know if you were talking to me there or not, but I don't recall saying anything of the sort and it would be dumb for me to say so because all the information I get is from other sources as it is.

Alright.

Regarding you're holocaust views. I can't agree with you. I don't know if you've been to any holocaust museums or not, but I've been to two, one in California and the other in Washington D.C. A holocaust survivor actually gave us a speech at the one in California oh so many years ago. I'm not quite sure I understand your stance on this as you say you don't believe it happened quite on the level the Allies claimed it happen, but you admit it happened. The vibe I'm getting from you is that the museums we have in the U.S. about this very subject are over elaborated and maybe the "survivor" that talked to me was a paid actress to make it seem like it was really bad? You'll have to clarify this up for me as those museums have some pretty graphic pictures. The museum I went to in D.C. this previous year gave us a lecture about the happening in Dafur too, this is while I was still at USNA.

Hopefully I don't give off that "conspiracy theory" vibe. I believe the holocaust happened, and im sure that the survivor that gave the speech was genuine. I didn't really think I would have to go into it, but I guess I deserve it for throwing my belief out there. I just think that the allies might have made the holocaust seem bigger than it was. Which is understandable, because it is war, and fair is fair. I just don't know if the 6 million figure was right.

Ilna and you are right about focusing on happenings today and how other genocides haven't had as much press as the holocaust, but just because other bad event have happened since doesn't make what happened to the Jews any less important. In a Naval History class I took last semester my the Commander teaching that class told us a military general ordered pictures to be taken as soon as they found out what was going on so that the world would never forget what happened there. Now you have people like Mel Gibson's father saying it never happened, and people like you downplaying what happened. Now you haven't presented evidence to support your claim so maybe what you're saying is true, but you'd need some staunch support to downplay something like that.

I disagree though, because academically it is alright to ask questions of anything. It should never be wrong to wonder or debate. I'm not trying to say it didn't happen, or that it wasn't terrible, because it certainly was, im just trying to say that maybe 6 million people didn't die, maybe they weren't gassed...you know? I'm a college student, so in reality, my opinion doesn't matter at all, but for academic purposes, it sure is fun to research and think about. To tell you the truth, the holocaust revisionist theorist argue with way more facts and logic than I have SEEN the pro-holocaust happened camp. Because the typical excuse from the pro-camp is that "how you can deny it happened, it is so terrible....you NEO-NAZIS!" or "how can you attempt to downplay it? only 60+ years and your trying to forget it/erase it already".

If you want evidence, go to CODOH.com, I can link you some other sites later. I just hate the general bashing I or anyone else that questions the holocaust receives everytime a question is asked.



I'm going to go back and play videogames. I don't have class today.

I did, sucked too, had a psych exam.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

BS. That is where you guys are wrong.

How so? Go listen or find the transcripts of what he said. He came on and flat out started into them. There was no comedic context. He was just calling them ho's and saying they were ugly, saying they look like the Toronto Raptors, calling them some rough ho's. There is nothing comedic about that. It is unlike when Bernard does impersonations of Mayor Ray Nagin or Al Sharpton, that's comedy. It is unlike when they do the Richard Nixon or Bill Clinton or Alberto Gonzales impersonations. It is unlike when they set-up a comedic on-air sketch. I've listened to that show many times and often they skirt the edges of racism and sexism, here they flat out crossed the line at 100mph. I always feel like the people who cannot see this are not racist but they are racially insensitive. Anyway, that's why this country will always have these kinds of problems.

I'd like to see during some public cultural event(which this was NOT) say like the Puerto Rican day parade and then someone go on air for no reason and start calling some of the performers Puerto Rican slurs or maybe during the St.Patty's day parade someone go on national radio and TV and do the same. That kind of stuff is unprecedented and was a flat-out attack on a group of talented kids who were doing nothing to warrant that level of humiliation. Four or five of these girls were just outta high school. Unfortunately, they've had to mature very fast and now they know what white america thinks of them. Hopefully they will go on and continue to demonstrate and outshine others on and off the court.

[Zilla Man]

Hopefully I don't give off that "conspiracy theory" vibe. I believe the holocaust happened, and im sure that the survivor that gave the speech was genuine. I didn't really think I would have to go into it, but I guess I deserve it for throwing my belief out there. I just think that the allies might have made the holocaust seem bigger than it was. Which is understandable, because it is war, and fair is fair. I just don't know if the 6 million figure was right.

I disagree though, because academically it is alright to ask questions of anything. It should never be wrong to wonder or debate. I'm not trying to say it didn't happen, or that it wasn't terrible, because it certainly was, im just trying to say that maybe 6 million people didn't die, maybe they weren't gassed...you know? I'm a college student, so in reality, my opinion doesn't matter at all, but for academic purposes, it sure is fun to research and think about. ".

If you want evidence, go to CODOH.com, I can link you some other sites later. I just hate the general bashing I or anyone else that questions the holocaust receives everytime a question is asked.

With all due respect, Gamer 88, it's one thing to "question and debate." But you've gone a bit further than that. I'm going to cut you some slack because you're young and (probably) not a minority. Anti-semitism is very ingrained in American culture. The very fact that you got off onto a rant about Jews and trying to downplay the Holocaust, proves my point. If you knew anything about it, you'd realize that 2 million people being systematically because of their ethnicity is just as horrific as 6 million people exterminated. The fact that you try to nitpick as if smaller numbers lessen the tragedy prove that you've definitely got some race issues.

Case in point:

My sister is in high school, and I told her a fun report and stance would be to try to argue that the holocaust didn't occur to the extent the Allies in WW2 claim it did. I gave her several websites and databases to help her out. Unfortunately for her, she found out her teacher was a jew (once again racially,not religously), and her teacher is taking a lot of offense to her research paper. Regardless, my sister is still doing the paper, and she will probably not get the best of scores, and she will probably take it to the higher authority.

Gee, unfortunate that her teacher was a "Jew"? Yeah, so maybe he could pound some sense into her before she made an ass out of herself in front of the whole class.

So you think that denying the fact that millions of people were killed because of their ethnicity would make a "fun" report? :confused:

My god, Gamer 88, you are one sick, racist, twisted puppy. What's next, a report on how slavery "really wasn't as bad as the blacks and history claimed"?

Might I suggest a visit to the Museum of Tolerance the next time you're in Los Angeles?


Oh yeah, where do you all stand on the holocaust, since we are talking about Jews?

Where do I "stand on the holocaust"? Millions of people where exterminated because of their race. What other position is there? That's like asking me what my "stand" is on rainfall. Either you acknowledge it happened or you don't. Based on 60 plus years of empirical eveidence, I choose the former.

If you choose the latter, may suggest a white hood with eyeholes and a white sheet for you to wear on Campus.

Gaddy, thanks for starting this thread. If anything, we got to see some VGR members true natures.

[ilnadmy]

That's a little unfair, Zilla, and that's exactly what I'm talking about when the Nazi holocaust is mentioned. This particular genocide, unlike any other genocide that has historically taken place, is seen as something sacred, and if you don't agree with it then you're automatically labeled an anti-semite, which is unfair to be honest. If someone were to come around and state that they think the Armenian genocide didn't happen no one would go off on a rant about how racist they are and how ridiculous their position is, but as soon as the issue is about the Nazi holocaust it's like people don't want a discussion; you need to accept the facts given to you or you're a racist.

I personally have no issue with the numbers given, and I think it's a horrible tragedy, just like everyone else. However, what's the harm with people discussing the event? I mean it's a historical event just like anything else, so why is there a stigma on anyone who tries to debate it?

[PapaSmurf]

I too think that post that Zilla wrote was over the line, though I see the point that he's trying to get across.

Ilna, I don't think anyone is calling anyone anti-semite here. It's more an issue of morality and what people think is wrong. Zilla was writing that even if it was a lower number of people that were killed, it still would be the same horrible tragedy 1 million or 6 million. That's something I tried to highlight in my post.

ALso the reason the Nazi holocaust is taken the way it is, is because that directly affected our society and it's what evey history book teaches us. Incidents in Rawanda (sp?) and Dafur are just as horrible as what happened in Nazi Germany, but the people in power just don't seem to give a ****. I just found out about the issue in Darfur this summer and that had been going on for a couple years. Why did I just find out about it? I sure didn't see it any major news sources or anything like that. The reason peop