PS3 20gig sku officially toast.

[theWacoKid]

Put a fork in her, this puppy's done. From joystiq.

R.I.P. PlayStation 3 20GB is officially no more
Posted Apr 11th 2007 4:45PM by Alexander Sliwinski

Straight from Sony: The 20GB PS3 will no longer be offered to retailers for sale in North America. The decision was made based on consumer and retail demand favoring "the 60GB model 10 to 1."

Dave Karraker of Sony America states, "At launch, we offered two separate models of PlayStation 3 to meet the diverse needs and interests of our PlayStation fan base. Initial retail demand in North America was upwards of ninety percent in favor of the 60GB SKU, so we manufactured and shipped-in accordingly. Due to the overwhelming demand for the 60GB model from both retailers and consumers, we have ceased offering the 20GB model here in North America. In addition to the larger internal hard drive, the 60GB PlayStation 3 features added storage media slots and built-in Wi-Fi not found in the 20GB system. Based on retailer and consumer feedback, we have decided to focus our current efforts on the more popular 60GB model."

This follows mounting evidence that the 20GB was on its way out the door at Best Buy and even the Sony Style store. And so we say goodbye to the PlayStation 3's 20GB model. Goodnight sweet Prince, we hardly knew ye.

R.I.P. PlayStation 3 20GB
Nov. 17, 2006 -- April 11, 2007

Do I belive sony's PR spin. No, not really, since the main reason for the 20gig unit going bye bye is abundantly clear, the 20gig unit incurred a bigger loss than the 60gig unit. Its a sku that sony really didn't want to provide to retailers or consumers.

It is possible that retailers are fed up with multiplle skus as they're a royal PITA to have to explain to consumers. Retailers are just going to love having to deal with three effin skus from MS. Early adopters are not likely to be interested in cheap-o versions of a console, and with ps3 supply exceeding demand, you won't have buyers accepting a 20gig unit because that's all they could find, which is what did happen with the 360 during launch. People boiught 360 cores because there was nothing else.

The 20gig unit might have also complicated manufacturing as there are mobo modifications that have to take place with the 20gig unit. The 20gig unit might also have problems going forward as more and more games will make use of hdd space for quicker loads and texture streaming.

I'm going to add one more reason for this move. With MS bringing out the elite, sony may decided there is no longer a need for a $499 variation of the ps3. Since MS is moving up in price, why bother holding on to a loss leading ps3?

If you're going to get rid of something, then do it quick and don't look back.

[Gamer From '78]

Put a fork in her, this puppy's done. From joystiq.



Do I belive sony's PR spin. No, not really, since the main reason for the 20gig unit going bye bye is abundantly clear, the 20gig unit incurred a bigger loss than the 60gig unit. Its a sku that sony really didn't want to provide to retailers or consumers.

It is possible that retailers are fed up with multiplle skus as they're a royal PITA to have to explain to consumers. Retailers are just going to love having to deal with three effin skus from MS. Early adopters are not likely to be interested in cheap-o versions of a console, and with ps3 supply exceeding demand, you won't have buyers accepting a 20gig unit because that's all they could find, which is what did happen with the 360 during launch. People boiught 360 cores because there was nothing else.

The 20gig unit might have also complicated manufacturing as there are mobo modifications that have to take place with the 20gig unit. The 20gig unit might also have problems going forward as more and more games will make use of hdd space for quicker loads and texture streaming.

I'm going to add one more reason for this move. With MS bringing out the elite, sony may decided there is no longer a need for a $499 variation of the ps3. Since MS is moving up in price, why bother holding on to a loss leading ps3?

If you're going to get rid of something, then do it quick and don't look back.

Microsoft should ditch the Core unit and drop the price of the Premium Bundle down to $349.99. With the new 120-gig HDD's, they could blow out the 20-gigs for a little more than a memory card or bundle them in with a big-name game like Halo 3.

This would help to standardize the Xbox 360 community with all units having a HDD.

From a financial standpoint, this move makes sense for Sony. Unfortunately, it looks bad and consumers will quickly see that. $600 is alot to pay for a gaming system.

[theWacoKid]

Microsoft should ditch the Core unit and drop the price of the Premium Bundle down to $349.99. With the new 120-gig HDD's, they could blow out the 20-gigs for a little more than a memory card or bundle them in with a big-name game like Halo 3.

This would help to standardize the Xbox 360 community with all units having a HDD.

From a financial standpoint, this move makes sense for Sony. Unfortunately, it looks bad and consumers will quickly see that. $600 is alot to pay for a gaming system.

Its not that bad. Most people buying a console don't populate message boards. If they did, nobody would touch a 360 with its dreadful history of reliability issues.

20gig units haven't been out there for months, its like, remember that system you never saw to begin with, well, you're definitley not going to see it now.

$600 is a lot for a kid wanting to play videogames. its cheap when you've paid $2000 for a high def set and you need something to play high def material. Sony's timing is not optimal. The ps3 is ahead of where the wave is and they're hoping that the wave will come along and push them forward. That hidef video and audio wave. In a year from now, who knows. A lot of people are going to be turned off of MS's a la carte bone you on every opton policy.

MS has made several mistakes. By releasing a first party wifi adapter, they've validiated the ps3's built-in wifi. By releasing an hd-dvd add-on, they've validated the ps3's blu ray drive. By releasing the 120gig hdd, they've validated the 60gig ps3s larger hdd. You add all those components together, and you're looking at $480 in additional expenses on top of the price of a 360. That cheap 360 is no longer looking so cheap. In fact, quite the opposite, its looking very expensive. $50/year for xbox live for let's say a five year lifespan. Yikes, my cheap ass 360 is costing a fortune. And let's not forget to add in some pain and injury suffering for the time spent away from your 360 enroute to MS's refurb, er, repair facility.

And what does MS give you back as standard equipement. Component cables that should cost at most $20 regardless. Some cheap ass garbage, uncomfortable wired headset. Whoop-de-fu#$ing-do.

The big winner in all this will be the wii since they offer a complete solution for $250. Built-in wifi, built in flash card storage, controller and a game with full b/c with gamecube titles. Very smart marketing.

Sony is thinking long term and thnking they will have to do the grunt work with the ps3. Fortunately, sony is in a position of having a large number of studios on board who seem to be doing double duty. Insomniac has had a small team working on Ratchet and Clank for a while. When Restistance shipped, the rest of the team moved over full time to R&C.

MS has won the inital rounds here in NA. They're still going nowhere in japan and europe is iffy. MS could very well keep NA for the duration, but theyr'e not acting like a company that is putting consumers first. They act like a company looking for various ways to screw over its customer base with proprietary peripherals and dubious dl content. I'm getting reallly sick of games that ask for $60 and a couple of months later want an extra $10 or $20 for maps that should've been incuded in the first place or offered for free.

[Mochan]

Remmeber my theory before that MS only had a core sku simply so they could claim that the Xbox 360 only cost $300? It was a marketing ploy and I always felt that's how it was, but they never really wanted to sell that SKU they wanted to move the $400 units instead.

Sony it seems to me had this very same strategy, and them killing the tard pack strenghtengs this theory. I don't believe the PR Spin "demand for the $600 system beat the $500 one 10 to 1" I feel they really just want to move $600 units, they just wanted to be able to claim that the PS3 costs $500 for marketing purposes.

[Mochan]

MS has made several mistakes. By releasing a first party wifi adapter, they've validiated the ps3's built-in wifi. By releasing an hd-dvd add-on, they've validated the ps3's blu ray drive. By releasing the 120gig hdd, they've validated the 60gig ps3s larger hdd. You add all those components together, and you're looking at $480 in additional expenses on top of the price of a 360. That cheap 360 is no longer looking so cheap. In fact, quite the opposite, its looking very expensive

Yup this is exactly what I meant. This is the reason the multiple 360 SKUs exist, they make the system look "cheaper" it allows marketing magic to occur and as you can see Gamer 78 bit into this marketing ploy hook line and sinker everytime he claims the 360 is $200 cheaper and all that. The additional addons exist to milk you once you buy the "cheaper" unit.

This also brings to light something else: the reason Sony ditches the tard pack and MS doesn't, is because with MS's milking strategy it makes sense to keep the tard pack, however for the PS3 which is going for the "all in one convergence value" strategy the cheaper SKU doesn't make much marketing sense -- you are marketing your product as the "total solution" with value for the money, how does it make sense to have a cheaper unit that doesn't have that "total solution" sticker on it because of missing components? Moreover Sony realized now that the "we have a $500 PS3" marketing ploy obviously isn't working considering the PS3's lackluster sales. Thus, why keep the tard pack? Focus the marketing machine on the "convergence value" ploy instead.

I feel that is the real reason why Sony is ditching the tard pack whereas MS isn't.


BTW - take note that it's rubbish how some people on this board are saying Sony is so arrogant they don't realize they are losing the console wars. That's plain stupid. What do you think the Sony people are? Idiots? Well they may well be but even idiots aren't THAT stupid. They are changing and adapting their strategy somehow. Maybe not getting the right strategy or not making the right changes, but the fact that they are making changes means they realize something is wrong. So stop with the "Sony is so arrogant they don't realize they are losing" posts.

[Tappy_Tibbons]

funny, the only person I know that has a PS3 has the 20 GB model.

[trebor]

The fact that Tappy knows someone with a 20gig Ps3 disproves a hunch of mine that they never existed in the first place.

I've yet to see one with my own eyes.

[ilnadmy]

I've seen a few around here, although only in black market shops where the prices are jacked up to high heaven.

I could technically go out and buy an official PS3 as they have released here, but it being PAL means I can't play any of my PS2 games on it. Guess I have to wait until I get to the US.

I was, however, considering the 20GB version. I mean the only thing it's missing is the 40GB and the wireless adapter, so it's not a bad deal. Ah well, guess that's not happening anymore.

[Mochan]

There's an awesome deal on a PS3 tardpack over here, I posted about it before, I would grab it right now if the PS3 had a better game library for me to play with, but for now I will pass.

I actually prefer the tardpack since I like its aesthetics better than the 60GB version.

[Glockstar]

Quit calling it a tardpack. There was nothing stupid about it. If I were to get a PS3 that is the model that I would have bought. (Now the 360 Core Pack, that's a tardpack.) I don't understand why they're getting rid of it. Unless it's like Wacko says, Sony was just losing more money on it than they were on the 60GB'er. Though I don't see how that's possible... seems to me like the 60GBer is where the losses would be. :confused:

[theWacoKid]

Quit calling it a tardpack. There was nothing stupid about it. If I were to get a PS3 that is the model that I would have bought. (Now the 360 Core Pack, that's a tardpack.) I don't understand why they're getting rid of it. Unless it's like Wacko says, Sony was just losing more money on it than they were on the 60GB'er. Though I don't see how that's possible... seems to me like the 60GBer is where the losses would be. :confused:


Uh, you're kidding right? According to isuppli which did a cost teardown analysis of the ps3 shortly before launch in NA, it cost sony only an additional $36 to make the 60gig unit which they get an extra $100 for, netting sony $64 over the 20gig uinit.

The upgrade in drives from 20gig to 60gig cost sony $11.
The wifi chipset cost them $15.
The memory card board $5.
And additional production costs $5.
Total $36.

MS makes more money on the premium versus the core as well. Why do you think they push the premium? The elite will also make more money than the premium. Companies don't look to trade you up for your benefit, they do it for their benefit.

The 20gig unit was a favortie of the HT crowd whose main requirements would be bluray along with hdmi. Once sony added hdmi to the 20gig unit, there was no reason for this market segment to buy the 60gig unit instead. Sony realized they had made a mistake. They were undercharging this segment and they would never get their money back from game software sales. Basically, sony screwed themselves.

[Glockstar]

You got the numbers. Then I guess it makes sense then.

I have to wonder then... if Sony's penny-pinching already, are they really going to markdown the PS3 this holiday, like some are supposing they will? I don't see how they could/would.(?)

[theWacoKid]

You got the numbers. Then I guess it makes sense then.

I have to wonder then... if Sony's penny-pinching already, are they really going to markdown the PS3 this holiday, like some are supposing they will? I don't see how they could/would.(?)

Sony is in cost control mode. They cut the EE from the euro model to cut some costs. Sony is not going to cut their price for fear of a like move from MS. A $299 360 premium is going to generate far more sales than a $499 ps3. If sony gets aggrressive and cuts down to $399, then they're in a world of financial hurt.

Sony has no history of engaging in massive price cuts. The last large price cut from sony was back in may of 2002 when they cut the ps2 from $300 to $200.

Right now, for sony, the more pressing priority is getting some big name titles in shape. That's where they stand to make their money back. There's no point in selling hardware without the software to go with it.

Right now, I dont' see anyone dropping their price on hardware. MS is releasing the elite at $480. If they were going to cut the price on the premium, they wouldn't be doing that. With halo 3 coming out this fall, MS will ride that. Why cut your hardware by $100 with your biggest game coming out?

Nintendo has no need to cut their hardware price, they can't meet the current demand and sony doesn't want to get into a price war they can't win against MS.

For consumers, that spells, high prices on hardware for the forseeable future.

[ilnadmy]

Sony isn't going to cut prices because in a price war with MS and Nintendo, given current console prices, Sony will most definitely lose. Like Waco said, a $299 360 is going to sell a lot better than a $499 PS3. It's not only better for Sony, but for MS as well. As long as Sony doesn't cut prices MS makes more profit off their 360s, and they're going to milk it as much as they can. Once Sony cuts prices, then MS can go on the offensive.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

I think another possibiltiy is that if Sony or MS wake up and realize Nintendo for the threat that they are then maybe there will be a Price cut. Will Sony completely give Japan to Nintendo?

Sure they can't match the Price of the Wii but maybe they can make it bit more digestable.

Actually I don't think anygame is going to help that much. That price is to big a barrier. And you can always get h

[ilnadmy]

MGS4 is the game that should start moving PS3s. We'll see how that goes though.

[PapaSmurf]

MGS4 is the kind of game for me where if it doesn't come an the 360, it's going to be a real hard to decision for me to get a 360 or PS3 ditto for FFXIII

[Tappy_Tibbons]

MGS4 is the game that should start moving PS3s. We'll see how that goes though.

Hate to say it, but the MGS series isn't as much of a system mover as the vocal minority that IS the forum kids on the Internet actually makes it out to be. It's true. Look at sales charts. FF on the other hand...can't argue with that.

[ilnadmy]

Yeah, that's why I said "start moving PS3s". It's going to be the little push that, combined with FFXIII and whatever other games they have up their sleeves (Ratchet and Clank, God of War, etc...) should start giving the PS3 the boost it needs.

[Gamer From '78]

Yeah, that's why I said "start moving PS3s". It's going to be the little push that, combined with FFXIII and whatever other games they have up their sleeves (Ratchet and Clank, God of War, etc...) should start giving the PS3 the boost it needs.


I actually wonder, how many systems Metal Gear Solid 4 will actually move? I'm sure you have those gamers waiting for this title before they drop their money, but I would think more people would be willing to plop the dough down when God of War 3, Gran Turismo 5 and Grand Theft Auto 4 come out. With each subsequent entry in the series, MGS has dropped in sales. Does anyone REALLY care anymore? I can remember being stoked as hell and buying crappy Zone of Enders just to play the demo of MGS2. After THAT disappointment, I have been kinda "meh" about the whole affair.

And for those waiting on GT5 and God of War, etc...they have a LONG wait ahead of them. These games won't come out until next year at the earliest. And GTA jumped ship.

I watched Attack of the Show last night with a part about the console wars and they were talking to the head of Joystiq.com and Addam Sessler of X-Play. Both agree that Microsoft and the Halo monster will keep Microsoft firmly planted as the leader well into 2008. Sessler made mention that the most interesting looking game for the PS3 is Lair, but he is skeptical if this type of game can move hardware. They also did mention that the Wii will continue to sell very well, but they felt it too would not surpass the Xbox 360. I assume though-they were talking about North America only.

[Gamer From '78]

Yup this is exactly what I meant. This is the reason the multiple 360 SKUs exist, they make the system look "cheaper" it allows marketing magic to occur and as you can see Gamer 78 bit into this marketing ploy hook line and sinker everytime he claims the 360 is $200 cheaper and all that. The additional addons exist to milk you once you buy the "cheaper" unit.

Not true Mochan. When I compare prices, it's purely from a game-playing standpoint. Nothing more, nothing less. I bought the HD-DVD add-on for fun and to see for myself what all the hubbub was about. It doesn't make the 360 more appealing to me whatsoever and it surely isn't needed. Since Xbox Live doesn't work where I live, the fact that there is no wi-fi built-in is meaningless to me. But I will say it is lousy as hell that something so cheap was left out to milk gamers $100 for. That's bullcrap. But back to what I was saying.

The Xbox 360 Premium bundle includes everything you need out of the box to play games in high-def and has a headset. The headset isn't bad, but if Waco wants to call it crap, whatever. It's there and it works. So I can play games "out-of-the-box" as soon as I turn the system on, in high-def for $400.

The PS3 costs $600. It doesn't include high-def cables. It doesn't include a heaset. You need these extra. Therefore, it costs MORE than $600 to play PS3 games in high-def.

And that's all I am saying. I could give a rat's @$$ about watching movies on my game system. To get the PS3 to do the same thing the 360 does, it costs over $200 more. And that's to PLAY GAMES.

Personally, I have no interest at all in replacing or nullifying nearly 1,000 DVD's I own because two competing formats thinks the world needs an upgrade. Screw that.

[ilnadmy]

You still did pay $600 all-in-all for your 360, so really I don't see why you're bashing the PS3's price. You're not the only one out there who bought the HD-DVD to see what all the fuss is about, and that's what MS is counting on. Credit where credit is due, they got you to put down the money for that thing and not think that this is increasing the amount of money spent on your 360. That's smart marketing right there.

[theWacoKid]

Not true Mochan. When I compare prices, it's purely from a game-playing standpoint. Nothing more, nothing less. I bought the HD-DVD add-on for fun and to see for myself what all the hubbub was about. It doesn't make the 360 more appealing to me whatsoever and it surely isn't needed. Since Xbox Live doesn't work where I live, the fact that there is no wi-fi built-in is meaningless to me. But I will say it is lousy as hell that something so cheap was left out to milk gamers $100 for. That's bullcrap. But back to what I was saying.

The Xbox 360 Premium bundle includes everything you need out of the box to play games in high-def and has a headset. The headset isn't bad, but if Waco wants to call it crap, whatever. It's there and it works. So I can play games "out-of-the-box" as soon as I turn the system on, in high-def for $400.

The PS3 costs $600. It doesn't include high-def cables. It doesn't include a heaset. You need these extra. Therefore, it costs MORE than $600 to play PS3 games in high-def.

And that's all I am saying. I could give a rat's @$$ about watching movies on my game system. To get the PS3 to do the same thing the 360 does, it costs over $200 more. And that's to PLAY GAMES.

Personally, I have no interest at all in replacing or nullifying nearly 1,000 DVD's I own because two competing formats thinks the world needs an upgrade. Screw that.

You don't have live, so WTF do you care if a system comes with a headset or not, and if you're not gaming on live, how would you know if the headset is good or not.

First off, if someone already owns a bluetooth headset, they're already set up. And bluetooth headsets are wireless. You want a wireless headset on the 360, cough up $60 for MS's proprietary wireless headset. Bluetooth headsets can be picked up for half that amount if you shop around. The ps3 component cables are $20. $50 covers you for component cables and a bluetooth headset and still comes in under the non-negotiable price of MS's buy it from us or nobody else's wireless headset.

You're such a hypocrite, you paid $200 for the hd dvd add on just to see what it was about? WTF are you talking about? You bought, it you lying SOS to play hi def movies, which the ps3 gives you standard out of the box. Also, the ps3 blu ray drive is contained within the system and isn't some messy add on peripheral with an external power supply and usb cable adding to your clutter. Unlike the ps3, you will never get hi def audio out from your hd dvd add on. And the hd dvd drive will not be used for gaming purposes relegating its use solely to movie watching.

I own an hd-dvd add on and I regret the purchase. Should've gone for a standalone player. Also, to add insult to injury, there is a bug in the audio of the add on, that has yet to be resolved. Dolby digital tracks are in permanent midnight mode, that means that the dynamic range is compressed and there's no way to fix it, until MS gets off their lazy asses and releases a firmware patch. They've known about this bug since the system was released and were probably aware of it before they released the system to the general public.

[NEO-360]

Oh well. I guess if you want to buy a PS3 its one expensive bundle to choose from. For Sony its all about the money anyway.:)

[ilnadmy]

For Sony its all about the money anyway.

And for MS it's not??

[trebor]

Frankly, I have to agree that in order to get the equivalent hardware capabilities out of the 360 that comes standard with the 60 gig PS3, you will end up spending at least $700 dollars, to the PS3's $650 ($50 for the hi-def cables and headset).

360 Premium - $400
WiFi Adapter - $100
HD-DVD add-on - $200.

And, to actually get technical about it, you would need to buy 2 more 20 GIG HDDs for the 360 to match, but with the "Elite" pack coming out for $480, this will leave us with this: A $780 Xbox360 versus a $650 PS3.

Oh wait, throw in a year of Live for $60 and now were looking at a $840 Xbox360 versus the $650 PS3. Oh wait again, you will need to buy an extended warranty for the Xbox360, since it's failure rate is alarmingly high, so now we've got a $1000 Xbox360 versus a $650 PS3.

Suddenly that super expensive PS3 ain't so much anymore.

[Gamer From '78]

Frankly, I have to agree that in order to get the equivalent hardware capabilities out of the 360 that comes standard with the 60 gig PS3, you will end up spending at least $700 dollars, to the PS3's $650 ($50 for the hi-def cables and headset).

360 Premium - $400
WiFi Adapter - $100
HD-DVD add-on - $200.

And, to actually get technical about it, you would need to buy 2 more 20 GIG HDDs for the 360 to match, but with the "Elite" pack coming out for $480, this will leave us with this: A $780 Xbox360 versus a $650 PS3.

Oh wait, throw in a year of Live for $60 and now were looking at a $840 Xbox360 versus the $650 PS3. Oh wait again, you will need to buy an extended warranty for the Xbox360, since it's failure rate is alarmingly high, so now we've got a $1000 Xbox360 versus a $650 PS3.

Suddenly that super expensive PS3 ain't so much anymore.

I see it differently. I don't need a WiFi adapter since I don't have access to Xbox Live. I don't need a $50 subscription to Xbox Live Gold, again because I don't have access. I don't need the HD-DVD add-on. The Xbox Premium bundle comes with everything I need to game in High Definition and you can easily find bundles that include a game with them as well.

Yes, I bought the HD-DVD drive. It was $200. But even IF you want to count this as part of the cost of the system, it includes the $30 remote and a $30 HD-DVD movie with it. So you are talking closer to $140 for this add-on. And again, it's NOT NECESSARY for gaming whatsoever!

As far as the size of the HDD, 20 gigs is more than most gamers will ever need. The original Xbox only had an 8-gig model in it and I never used even a gig with everything I put on it!

But regardless of all of this, the Xbox is $400 at retail, the PS3 is $600. That's something you just can't argue. And it appears that the obsession with Guitar Hero is alive & well on the 360 with the guitar bundle sold out everywhere.

[folken001]

I see it differently. I don't need a WiFi adapter since I don't have access to Xbox Live. I don't need a $50 subscription to Xbox Live Gold, again because I don't have access. I don't need the HD-DVD add-on. The Xbox Premium bundle comes with everything I need to game in High Definition and you can easily find bundles that include a game with them as well.

Yes, I bought the HD-DVD drive. It was $200. But even IF you want to count this as part of the cost of the system, it includes the $30 remote and a $30 HD-DVD movie with it. So you are talking closer to $140 for this add-on. And again, it's NOT NECESSARY for gaming whatsoever!

As far as the size of the HDD, 20 gigs is more than most gamers will ever need. The original Xbox only had an 8-gig model in it and I never used even a gig with everything I put on it!

But regardless of all of this, the Xbox is $400 at retail, the PS3 is $600. That's something you just can't argue. And it appears that the obsession with Guitar Hero is alive & well on the 360 with the guitar bundle sold out everywhere.

Your arguments are broken as ever. I think what waco said about you summed it up pretty well.

Yes, Xbox had small hdd but back then, XBL also didn't offer HD movie service and such. If 20 gig is all people need, why is M$ going to sell the bigger hdd? So people can have the 100 gig that they are never going to use? Again and AGAIN, you can't use price as a reason to attack PS3 when you have proved over and over again that money isn't an issue with you.

[NEO-360]

Your arguments are broken as ever. I think what waco said about you summed it up pretty well.

Yes, Xbox had small hdd but back then, XBL also didn't offer HD movie service and such. If 20 gig is all people need, why is M$ going to sell the bigger hdd? So people can have the 100 gig that they are never going to use? Again and AGAIN, you can't use price as a reason to attack PS3 when you have proved over and over again that money isn't an issue with you.

If you want to buy a PS3 then you must pay well over $600 bucks. And the worse part is that you're paying full price for a videogame console that doesnt have a solid librairy to fall back on without bringing in PS2/PSX games to support it. The hell with the memory inside the HD or all the extras thats underneath the hood. When is PS3 owners going to talk about how great those PS3 games are? Thats something 360 owners has been doing for months now. Choke on that Capt.Sony. :thumbsup:

[Gadfly2317]

Sessler made mention that the most interesting looking game for the PS3 is Lair, but he is skeptical if this type of game can move hardware.

I don't think flight combat games generally do well; I certainly can't see it selling systems. The only reason their other game was a system seller on GC was because of the Star Wars franchise.

Lair looks so freaking cool to me; but then, so did Crimson Skies, and it sold what, 50k? I want a good arcadish-flight combat game. But that alone is not enough to sell me a Ps3.

I also really want a revival of Pilot Wings; sorry to go off topic.

As far as SKU's go, it is all annoying and stupid to me. Just put out a damned system already, with standard features. Wifi. No Wifi. Hdmi, no HDMI. Hard Drive, no Hard drive. I personally think MS screwed it up the worst with the multi-sku though, not having a standard HD. You can always add on goodies like Wi-fi, but you can never ever fix the fact that developers can't program for the 360 with a standard hard drive.

[Mochan]

Lair isn't exactly a flight combat game, at least not in the traditional sense if the word, thinking realistic military flight sim is nto as exciting as thinking dragons flying around breathing fire and wreaking havoc.

That said, I am not predicting Lair will sell like hotcakes. I honestly do not know. I've been wrong on a lot of trends this gen so I don't think I'm in the best position right now to dictate this particular game's sales. I can try to call other things but this is one where I feel I would mess up big time if I called it.

[slade]

From the new videos of Lair, some parts of it look great and others look downright awful. They need to tighten up the graphics before the game ships or else it's going to look like it was rushed to release.

[thelastword]

Did you watch the developer walkthroughs at gametrailers? The IGN HD vids are downright putrid in comparison. Lair is currently the most impressive game I've seen on any console, it is really an in your face showcase of what the PS3 hardware can do, a real CELL showcase.

The level where the city is shown is unbelievable, what a large and detailed city..amazing detail on the characters, hell..the soldiers on the fields and of course the best water in any game to date. Do watch the vid where you fight the sea serpent, also the vid showing the night level.

What's so impressive is that there's so much detail in such a huge world, with a tonne of dragons laying waste in the most detailed city I've ever seen, with excess of 25,000 troops on ground all at the same time.

It's clearly the most beastly of engines on any console at the moment and remember, it's still at the alpha stage where many things are going to be tweaked and tuned till release in July.

I think though that 2007 is basically an eyeopener, the most impressive games I've seen so far are PS3 bound. Technically, I don't think that Lair could be duplicated in it's current form on any other console. Uncharted is another which is basically in a league of it's own. Then we have Hsword and Ratchet, all in all, these are the most impressive looking games landing this year. Gameplaywise, they're all looking rock solid.

Factor 5 have always made very pretty games, as it relates to the gameplay in Lair, i've watched the vids quite a few times and i'm quite impressed with what i've seen, especially with the aerial combat, which is basically the meat of the game. Hell, you could sever the heads of toros and toss them on the warring troops below, you could jump off your dragon and attack opposing riders in mid air whilst your dragon swoops bye to pick you up, you're in sync with your dragon. Fact is, the levels shown here are only the early levels, the other/latter levels are varied and even more chaotic and impressive, gargantuan bosses galore, much more gameplay altering physics etc.. It's amazing what F5 have accomplished so far and to think that this is a first gen PS3 effort.

Personally, I wish F5 all the success they deserve with this title, it's not often that you get this type of game with such a huge budget, no less, by a team with such obvious talent with bleeding edge tech.

[Gadfly2317]

Personally, I wish F5 all the success they deserve with this title, it's not often that you get this type of game with such a huge budget, no less, by a team with such obvious talent with bleeding edge tech.

I hope it is a huge hit and not another Strangers Wrath, Eternal Darkness, or Beyond Good and Evil.

It's not just that the Ps3 needs a boost, but the players that are already there hopefully pick it up; this is already a risk-averse industry and a big budget title doing something so original needs to succeed. At least, I've never seen a game like this before. . . this doesn't seem much like Panzer Dragoon stylistically and gameplay-wise.

[Mochan]

I want Lair!

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

I want Lair!

Same here. I've read enough that I think I'll enjoy the game. It's coming in July, which is good, because May and June are already booked for me with games.

For the original topic: I have a 20 gig PS3. I had a choice between the two, and the extra stuff for the 60 gig just wasn't worth the extra $100. I can get online w/o Wi-fi if I need to, I won't run out of HDD space (especially if I'm not downloading a bunch of demos and putting music on the system), and the compartment with the different memory card slots wouldn't be used anyway. I've never regretted getting the 20 gig (turd pack my ***).

Too bad Sony pulled the 20 gig. I think that would have been the one more gamers would have picked up if more were available in stores during or soon after launch.

[Glockstar]

Lair: the next Odama. The next Star Wars Rogue Squadron III. The next Blazing Angels... Wii version.

This is a game you'll want to wait until reviews are out for first - trust me.

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

I hope there's a demo of Lair available soon.

[thelastword]

There is a demo of Lair coming soon, that was revealed at the recent LAIR showing, however there's no conclusive date as to when it will hit the PSN. I'm thinking a couple of days before it hits stores in July.

[slade]

snip.

I was talking about the Gametrailer Hi-def vids. They are better quality then IGN but they still show the same problems. The fire effects especially look like something out of a PS1 game. Technically, Lair is all over the place. There are some set pieces that look great but then along comes something that looks atrocious. It's no Heavenly Sword, that's for sure. Anyway, the vids dropped the game from must buy to wait, read reviews and evaluate from there, for me.

[slade]

All right, had not seen the developer walk through vids. When did GT put those online? The game is back to day one for me.

PART1. http://www.gametrailers.com/player.p...18580&type=wmv
PART2. http://www.gametrailers.com/player.p...18585&type=wmv

These vids blow away the other footage albeit the fire effects are still weak.

[thelastword]

They've been out there for a while, just after the 3 regular clips were posted.

As to the fire effects, that can be tweaked till release in July. There's also a 3rd part to the developer walkthroughs, should be posted pretty soon at gametrailers. I think Hsword is very impressive, but the sheer scope of LAIR gives it the technical award.

[Mochan]

Yeah, me I'm picking up the 20GB too if I get a PS3.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Technical award for LAIR! My god first the game has taken a massive downgrade. What happened to the detail in the Dragons they used to look Jurassic Park worthy. The scale of the game is incredible though I wonder how interactive or destrucitive the environments are going to be though.

This is game is a prime example of Hardware that's more cpu intensive than Gpu intensive. The lighting is subpar no where near what some of the best 360 games the textures are average at best take a look at the dragon textures in Kameo. They look better they look more detail and more fleshy even the freaking eye balls in the dragons in Kameo look great. I didn't see any self shadowing on the dragons at all. And god the on foot animations sucked!

Does this game even use shaders the Snow in lost planet is all shader effects and it's incredible some games use pixel shaders for water as well but from what that demo showed the water doesn't look interactive at all the was animation of the water when one of the ships exlpoded but I couldn't tell if that was dynamic at all.

The fire effects come on this is a freaking DRAGON game the fire effects should look sick but instead they look? MEH! GRAW 2 and especially Lost Planet nails fire.

First day by Slade? Really? Lastword this is the most impressive engine on consoles? No it's not even as impressive as the severly downgraded Motorstorm! This game may do well because lets face it there aren't many good PS3 games but I doubt it. Would like to see some rain effects wonder how that would look. Real interactive rain like Gears of War.

This reminds me of the early Xbox days when there really wasn't much to play so we harped on the graphics of so so games like Bloodwake and Wreckless (which wasn't that bad) but the difference was those games were truly graphical showpieces that were beyond anything the consoles were doing at the time.

[slade]

The detail in the Dragons is still there. The videos at GT's seems to have contrast cranked up all the way. Gamespot apparantely has better quality vids up with a lesser loss in quality:

http://gallery.roadbikereview.com/uploads/vgr/76153/headcomp.jpg

Plus, the scale of the game is massive. The game is level based and the largest level is 32 * 32 kilometers, which is larger then Oblivion's whole world. Do you remember how guys like you used to go on and on about persistent worlds and all that other BS when Halo launched? Well, this is seemingly the delivery of an actual persistent world.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

You know damn well the dragon didn't look as good as that 3rd pic. I said the Scale is huge but you didn't answer any of my points about the interactivity of the environment. And I'm talking about the videos from the original announcement anyway.

Like I said graphically the game isn't doing anything that great. Check this video out

http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/490/490038/vids_4.html

The 3rd one down look at the effects this game is throwing up compared to Lair. Lets not forget this is a 360 launch game from 2005!

The game looks good the scale is huge but the scale is really the only impressive thing about it. And accoriding to 1 up show THERE ARE NOT persistiant open world environments.

[ilnadmy]

This reminds me of the early Xbox days when there really wasn't much to play so we harped on the graphics of so so games

A-HA!! I HAVE IT ON TAPE!! YESSS!!! ME 1 YOU 0.

[Mochan]

You want Persistent World, you want STALKER!!!! Stalker also has some cool rain effects. No dragons though.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

A-HA!! I HAVE IT ON TAPE!! YESSS!!! ME 1 YOU 0.

I'm talking right after launch. The launch was better than the PS2/PS3 launch. And those games were technically better.

I've made a decsision to completely pass on a PS3 for a few years. I'm going to re up with one of the new radeons I doubt if I get the one I posted in the PC forums but I'm going to get a DX10 card and I may get Stalker then. Hell I might can run it now.

[Dancer O_o]

Lair is definately an interesting looking game. One thing I'm concerned with though is that the developers are forcing you to control the dragon with the Sixaxis motion ONLY, all the reviewers that have tried the demo build that Factor 5 has been toting around are not entirely pleased with that and have reserved judgement for later on the controls.

"When you have a light enemy targeted, you can hit a button to charge it and essentially body-check it to take it out quickly. Doing a charge move on larger dragons, however, will put you into a melee fighting mode that will require you to perform specific motions with the Sixaxis (indicated by onscreen cues) to successfully attack and defeat the enemy.

Unlike in past Factor 5 games, much of the aerial combat in Lair will happen up close, in melee fashion. Lair's gameplay relies heavily on the Sixaxis' motion controls for more than just this melee dueling. In fact, motion is the only way you can steer your dragon (the analog sticks are used solely for minor camera control). We instinctively tried to fly with the sticks when we first tried the game, but after about 10 minutes we found the motion controls to be pretty intuitive. Eggebrecht pointed out that, given the analog stick's relatively limited range of motion, the Sixaxis control ultimately gives you the ability to make larger movements for faster changes of direction and so on. We'll reserve final judgment until we get to play the entire finished game with this new control scheme, but for now we're cautiously optimistic that the designers have made the right choice by limiting steering control in this way."

http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/action/lair/news.html?sid=6169007&tag=topslot;title;3&om_act=convert&om_clk=topslot

Being that this is the case....I'm not convinced yet, this game needs to be nearly perfect or PS3 statis will suffer. It would be lovely for Sony to have a game that vindicates the Sixaxis control scheme, and a game that makes it clear that PS3 can outdo 360 in graphics, this is the game for both. The other problem I'm concerned with "onscreen cues" is that you are not looking at the action anymore but focusing on the "onscreen cues" area to make sure you time it all correctly...and that is truly a lame game mechanic that needs flat out murdered, not killed but drawn and quartered set fire to and dance around like wild indians. All the times I've played a game where they "Cue me" I have felt slighted, like a cheap gaming technique used because of uninspired game mechanics to begin with.

"Onscreen cues" and "weaksauce sixaxix" will kill this title before it even ships if they botch both.

[folken001]

One thing I'm concerned with though is that the developers are forcing you to control the dragon with the Sixaxis motion ONLY, all the reviewers that have tried the demo build that Factor 5 has been toting around are not entirely pleased with that and have reserved judgement for later on the controls.

I don't know. this is like saying Nintendo forced people to play Wii games with Wiimote.

Knowing this is the first PS3 major title, my expectation isn't exactly high.

[Tappy_Tibbons]

lol, Factor 5 is so arrogant. They diss Cliffy B and what have they accomplished that even compares to Unreal?

[Mochan]

I'm talking right after launch. The launch was better than the PS2/PS3 launch. And those games were technically better.

I've made a decsision to completely pass on a PS3 for a few years. I'm going to re up with one of the new radeons I doubt if I get the one I posted in the PC forums but I'm going to get a DX10 card and I may get Stalker then. Hell I might can run it now.


If you turn off all the awesome dynamic lighting effects Stalker runs very well on a 5 year old PC. It'll look "last gen" but well at least you didn't need to buy a $600 video card to get it to run.

[Mochan]

The other problem I'm concerned with "onscreen cues" is that you are not looking at the action anymore but focusing on the "onscreen cues" area to make sure you time it all correctly..

God of War did this, nobody whined about it then. I agree though I am not in love with this kind of gameplay, but seeing as how successful God of War was I don't think this will be a problem.

lol, Factor 5 is so arrogant. They diss Cliffy B and what have they accomplished that even compares to Unreal?

That they are. I went through the interview iwth Egg Breath that Zilla posted and while I agree with a lot of his convictions and points, I find he's a tad bit pompous.

*However* I don't think he was slighting Cliffy B and Epic, it is true that you can't zoom around and dart about at light speed with the UE3 engine right now as far as I'm concerned. I mean you could with the UE2 engine and a good PC but judging by how UE3 performs on PC hardware today, as well as how the UE3 engine performs on the 360, I don't think it's possible right now. It just isn't optimized to do that kind of thing on today's hardware. Lair's engine though looks like it was built to do this kind of thing.

He was just pointing out a reality with the UE3 engine at this point in time.

[slade]

You know damn well the dragon didn't look as good as that 3rd pic.

Why not? That pic is a direct screencap from Gamespot's high def videos. Since you pretty much conceded through your disbelief, that the game does look good, I'll choose to ignore the rest of your troll.

An btw, I'd already stated that the fire effects were not impressive long before you trolled in here. It's the sense of scale that sold me on this game.

And what in the hell is that crap about interactivity of environments? You've seen a bare fraction of one environment and it looked quite a bit interactive. Watch the ships explode in the water and look at the ripple that gets thrown up. Look at where your Dragon tears the head off a rhino and then uses it against the footsoldiers. And as for other environments, they have not shown all of the game yet. I know you're impatient to know more but Sony isn't going to show you the whole game until it's out in stores and even then you'll have to pay money for it. Anyways, of the other environments they have hinted at, one includes a snow level.

[thelastword]

Technical award for LAIR! My god first the game has taken a massive downgrade. What happened to the detail in the Dragons they used to look Jurassic Park worthy. The scale of the game is incredible though I wonder how interactive or destrucitive the environments are going to be though.

L.A.I.R has not been downgraded in any way shape or form, you have to be the most absolute of asses, to think such. Clearly, you like talking about things which you're evidently ignorant on or perhaps this is a troll post but either way it reeks, yes, it reeks of bilous vomit, but that's synonymous to you, so of course lets move on.

Even now, as we're speaking about Lair's recent showing, there's a lack of direct footage from that event. What we have though, are heavily compressed footage and of course some cam footage. So of course the dragons won't look as detailed as the direct feed footage we've seen of times yonder, but even then, compressed footage or not, Lair rapes anything on the 360 a million fold. If you only knew how much IGN compresses their media it becomes quite silly that you've got to pay for IGN's HD media when gametrailers offers much more and better media for free.



This is game is a prime example of Hardware that's more cpu intensive than Gpu intensive. The lighting is subpar no where near what some of the best 360 games the textures are average at best take a look at the dragon textures in Kameo. They look better they look more detail and more fleshy even the freaking eye balls in the dragons in Kameo look great. I didn't see any self shadowing on the dragons at all. And god the on foot animations sucked!

Hardware that's more CPU intensive than GPU intensive? why don't you shut your piehole? Lair makes extensive use of the CPU, if it wasn't for that CPU then Lair could not be done. Hell, no other cpu atm is able to draw 32x32 square km of geometry with with a tonne of detail every two metres and to think that such detail doesn't become any less profound having your dragon soar way up to the clouds or swooping by laying waste just a couple of metres above ground. Clearly you would rather devs complain and continue to make halfass ports on the PS3 not using the spu's entirely. PS3's Cell was built to work in tandem with the RSX, it's just that the Cell is beefy enough to do so much on it's own, in the end it just can't be good for the 360 and to think this is only a first gen game.

You know what, It's pretty pathetic how desperately clueless you really are. You want to talk about lighting and detail, I refer you then to the 3rd dev walkthrough of Lair at gametrailers. Watch when the lighting strikes in the night level illuminating the rotating heads, the effin detail at that instance is simply out of this world. There's much more footage of Lair available now, including the "Music in Lair" (amazing stuff), the GDC trailer, "the creature's in Lair" and "the indepth interview". Slade, check out the latest trailers at gametrailers.


Does this game even use shaders the Snow in lost planet is all shader effects and it's incredible some games use pixel shaders for water as well but from what that demo showed the water doesn't look interactive at all the was animation of the water when one of the ships exlpoded but I couldn't tell if that was dynamic at all.

I think it's pretty useless arguing with you in many respects, the fact is, you are basically saying you're clueless but at the sametime you're attempting to make definitive statements of course on what you're clueless on. I doubt that you have even seen much footage on Lair, I doubt that you've read the tonne of info I've provided in the "Julian Eggebrecht Interview thread", you're just talking out of your anal pool as usual.

When the dragon flames the boats on the sea, there are massive rippling efects on the water surface for crying out loud, it's one of the most apparent of things in any of the videos shown. When the in excess of (a mile) long sea serpent dashes through the ocean, there's a splash along with massive ripples as well. Clearly you are here to spread fud and troll.



The fire effects come on this is a freaking DRAGON game the fire effects should look sick but instead they look? MEH! GRAW 2 and especially Lost Planet nails fire.

I think that graw 2 nails smoke effects, not so much fire. That capcom engine does fire really well as I've indicated many times before and of course LP and DMC4 are really impressive there, but you are such a tool, have you seen the fire effects in Genji? You are a onesided drunkened bilebag, who hardly knows a thing about the games on the system you own, farless for the one you don't.

As I've said before, Lair is at it's alpha stage, there's a lot of finetuning and optimization to be done. It's a first generation game and sadly, I don't see such an ambitious engine on the 360 at all in the future. If the fire effects are not improved on when it hits stores and stays the way it is in it's curent form, it's still miles and miles ahead of anything out there IMO. The 360 could not dream of having half of such a game running on it without an instant red ring of death and the ushering in of that famous coffin.


First day by Slade? Really? Lastword this is the most impressive engine on consoles? No it's not even as impressive as the severly downgraded Motorstorm! This game may do well because lets face it there aren't many good PS3 games but I doubt it. Would like to see some rain effects wonder how that would look. Real interactive rain like Gears of War.

At the moment, Motorstorm is the best looking game out there on any console. Resistance is technically better than Gears, Lair rapes everything out there atm and it's coming in July. Clearly you have not played a boxed copy of motorstorm on an hd set no less, talking out your ass as usual. Like I've said, what's more technical? 40 enemies on screen or eight?, much much more geometry and polygons against low poly normal mapped enemies and environs? stretching draw distances with a tonne of effects and chaos against small cooridoorish levels with not much going on at all. So what gives, what effing gives.

Are massive levels with more effects and more enemies less technical than low poly, normal mapped enemies and environs? I mean don't even answer and you now want to talk abou Lair, a game which can't be done on the 360, desperate times indeed.


This reminds me of the early Xbox days when there really wasn't much to play so we harped on the graphics of so so games like Bloodwake and Wreckless (which wasn't that bad) but the difference was those games were truly graphical showpieces that were beyond anything the consoles were doing at the time.

You know what, this reminds me of the early dreamcast days when the PS2 came along, Oh! the dreamcast is just as powerful, Oh! the dreamcast is more powerful, Oh! the dreamcast has better games, Oh! the PS2 does not stand a chance. This crap never gets old, it's like an effin re-run, all the effin time.

You know what, if you really want to talk about all the shaders in the book, I refer you to uncharted, yet another game which will leave the 360 in the dust. It's landing this year along with Hsword and Ratchet and Clank, all of these games are beyond what's available and coming to the 360. So let's see, before year (1) is over PS3 gamers got and will have RFOM, VF5, F1-CE, UNCHARTED, HSWORD, MOTORSTORM, LAIR,SINGSTAR, RATCHET, LBP, GT-PROLOGUE, DEMO of FF13 and possibly KILLZONE in OCTOBER. How about all the superior versions of multiplats where the PS3 is the lead console, like BURNOUT for e.g

By all means, compare this lineup to the 360's first year and please remember that there are so many other exclusives landing this year, like FOLK's SOUL, AFRICA, EYEDENTIFY, EYE OF JUDGEMENT and HOT SHOTS GOLF, just to name a few. Are you telling me that the 360 is all that impressive, when Gears, up to this day is the only game that looks next gen on the console and still it's technically below par to the best on PS3 at launch and now.

You have to be desperate, you just have to, try defending how below par Halo3 looks at this point in time and how many xbot's dreams were shattered when they recently saw the latest footage of Mass Effect. Try defending how Forza looks like ass because in a GT world 30fps is just effing uncivilized.

[thelastword]

I find he's a tad bit pompous.

Out of all devs I've seen interviewed, I put Eggebrecht right behind TED PRICE in terms of humility. As it relates to his knowledge on technology, the man is at the top of his game, he clearly knows his stuff.


*However* I don't think he was slighting Cliffy B and Epic, it is true that you can't zoom around and dart about at light speed with the UE3 engine right now as far as I'm concerned. I mean you could with the UE2 engine and a good PC but judging by how UE3 performs on PC hardware today, as well as how the UE3 engine performs on the 360, I don't think it's possible right now. It just isn't optimized to do that kind of thing on today's hardware. Lair's engine though looks like it was built to do this kind of thing.

He was just pointing out a reality with the UE3 engine at this point in time.

Well of course, the fact is UE3 was done primarily for shooter games, but technically, UE3 is lacking on many fronts. Why is it that so many UE3 games lack any form of AA like is immediately apparent in Gears Of War, how about Rainbow Six Vegas? We all know that UE3 uses low poly characters and normal map the hell out of them, but that's not so technically proficient is it, but the fact is they do that to up the number of high rez textures and so it won't run like a crawl. In the end, is that a better approach? Is this a formula to advance bleeding edge tech?

There clearly are some issues with UE3 so far, when I look at Gears, the armor on these guys look like bitmaps normal mapped up the wazoo, It leaves alot to be desired. I like my environs to be more 3D in nature and have the abilty to be massive in nature and also destructible, that's much more impressive for a shooter IMO.

Now looking at Lair's engine, according to Eggebrecht, it can scale to any game you want to make. Personally, I think F5 should license this engine. For all the BS talk about how impressive Gears is, I think that Lair's engine can be used to give a totally superior clone of Gears on the PS3, just to show how much it's lacking technically. Imagine chars with much more polys, streaming textures off a bluray disc, cooridoor levels as small as Gears, where the detail and texture resolution could be upped and plumped down to the nth degree . There's no doubt that it would be much more impressive than gears by a mile.

I think that Bethesda could use this engine as well to create the the Elder Scrolls V, and imagine how big it could be and the detail that would be in that game. So all in all, I think that F5 has a major piece of engine here, and the fact that it is so impressive now, and that it can scale so well, only speaks volumes about it now and in the future.

[Renzatic Gear]

Hell, no other cpu atm is able to draw 32x32 square km of geometry with with a tonne of detail every two metres..

Quake Wars does that, and it does it on ass old single core PC CPUs. It's also gonna be doing it on the 360's 3 cores sometime in the near future.

[Dancer O_o]

You have to be desperate, you just have to, try defending how below par Halo3 looks at this point in time and how many xbot's dreams were shattered when they recently saw the latest footage of Mass Effect. Try defending how Forza looks like ass because in a GT world 30fps is just effing uncivilized.

I've seen a bunch of Halo 3 images and haven't been all that impressed so far, everything I've seen looks almost too clean and needs some grit to it. Forza 2 on the otherhand looks pretty impressive.

[Gadfly2317]

Lair is definately an interesting looking game. One thing I'm concerned with though is that the developers are forcing you to control the dragon with the Sixaxis motion ONLY, all the reviewers that have tried the demo build that Factor 5 has been toting around are not entirely pleased with that and have reserved judgement for later on the controls.
To me, since Factor Five was stoked about motion control from day 1 and have been designing a game around it, rather than adding it in, this is gonna be the title that will prove how well the six-axis works. I've suspected that it doesn't provide the degree of accuracy you see in the Wii controls, but I hope it can work well enough because I could see how this would be cool in a game like Lair.

"this game needs to be nearly perfect or PS3 statis will suffer. It would be lovely for Sony to have a game that vindicates the Sixaxis control scheme, and a game that makes it clear that PS3 can outdo 360 in graphics, this is the game for both., well, and not just outdo 360 at graphics, but make a top notch motion-control game which would also kinda kick the Wii right in the balls.

I agree, this game needs to achieve or the Ps3's status will suffer. So far, there's nothing to make the system more appealing than the 360, and that there aren't really titles coming anytime soon that do either, aside from Lair. With the loss of all the exclusives, and the shallowness of Motor Storm, if Lair's gameplay suffers from the 6-axis and the graphics don't bury the 360, that's game-over as far as I'm concerned. That's why I think you're seeing so many Lair posts from guys like Last Word. This game is the last, best hope for saving the Ps3 from true decline. There's other titles on the way, but they are too far off and if this one is a flop or a B- quality title, more gamers will continue to stop looking at the Ps3 as a viable choice over the 360.

[thelastword]

Quake Wars does that, and it does it on ass old single core PC CPUs. It's also gonna be doing it on the 360's 3 cores sometime in the near future. What do you mean ass old single core PC's? Are you running Quake Wars on your single core PC right now? Surely you're not referring to the same Quake Wars I know of, which is using the Doom 3 engine and megatextures? How big is a level in Quake wars anyway, what's the exact stat? A level in Lair is at least 32 km squared, it's using a technique called progressive mesh where all the geometry in the world is drawn by Cell and where the detail in those levels remain constant when a dragon is miles up in the sky or when the dragon is on the ground laying waste to over 25, 000 soldiers at any one moment.

Quake Wars might be just fine online, I think it should have been released ages ago though. The latest media has it showing it's age sadly, there's no doubt really, Quake Wars is just not in the same league as Lair.

[slade]

Lair is not going to be a well reviewed 90% + game. Personally, I think 75 - 80% sounds more in line. You actually get the feeling that IGN is not too hyped about the game from how horribly they messed up the HI-DEF videos.

[PapaSmurf]

What do you mean ass old single core PC's? Are you running Quake Wars on your single core PC right now? Surely you're not referring to the same Quake Wars I know of, which is using the Doom 3 engine and megatextures? How big is a level in Quake wars anyway, what's the exact stat? A level in Lair is at least 32 km squared, it's using a technique called progressive mesh where all the geometry in the world is drawn by Cell and where the detail in those levels remain constant when a dragon is miles up in the sky or when the dragon is on the ground laying waste to over 25, 000 soldiers at any one moment.

Quake Wars might be just fine online, I think it should have been released ages ago though. The latest media has it showing it's age sadly, there's no doubt really, Quake Wars is just not in the same league as Lair.

How dare you hate on Quake Wars. How can he run it on his single core PC if the game isn't even out yet? From what I've seen Quake Wars looks better than Lair. Hell Quake Wars looks a lot better than alot of things. I'll have go look it up again as it's been a while since I've seen some pics of Quake Wars, but the game looks awesome and I have no doubt I will like it and the majority of gamers will like it more than Lair.

[thelastword]

I agree, this game needs to achieve or the Ps3's status will suffer. So far, there's nothing to make the system more appealing than the 360, and that there aren't really titles coming anytime soon that do either, aside from Lair. With the loss of all the exclusives, and the shallowness of Motor Storm, if Lair's gameplay suffers from the 6-axis and the graphics don't bury the 360, that's game-over as far as I'm concerned. That's why I think you're seeing so many Lair posts from guys like Last Word. This game is the last, best hope for saving the Ps3 from true decline. There's other titles on the way, but they are too far off and if this one is a flop or a B- quality title, more gamers will continue to stop looking at the Ps3 as a viable choice over the 360. Lair is one of the first titles with a heavy focus on motion controls, but it's not the only title which will have great implementations of motion control this year. Uncharted and Hsword are doing some excellent things with motion control just the same. It is important to realize, that the PS3 is not a one game console. When so many Xbots are satisfied with just one major title per year, like Gears of last year and Halo3 this year, PS fans are looking forward to many high profile titles per year. You may think that Motorstorm is shallow as it relates to modes, but Motorstorm's gameplay is rock solid and online play is a blast. Well, we all know how it is with RFOM. As much as some guys here may want to talk out of their pools, out of the most popular genres out there, it's clear that the PS3 has the best shooter, the best racers in Motorstorm and F1 and the best fighter by a TKO in VF5. You want games using motion control, try flow, you want smaller interesting games, try Calling all Cars which is landing on the 27th.

Everybody wants to talk about motion controls, but many people forget that EY3 TOY HD is landing soon, that is going to take things to the extreme height of control nirvana in games. You know what, I look at the PS3 and I see a medium where anything can be done, the sky's the limit in every aspect as it relates to where you want to go, what you want to push forward, that's what tickles my fancy, that's what makes me grin as to what's upcoming, what's revealed and what's still secretly burning under the bushel.

[Gadfly2317]

Lair is one of the first titles with a heavy focus on motion controls, but it's not the only title which will have great implementations of motion control this year. Uncharted and Hsword are doing some excellent things with motion control just the same. It is important to realize, that the PS3 is not a one game console.

I may have lately been bashing the Ps3 and praising the 360, but I'm hoping you are right. I think motion control is highly underrated here at sys wars. BUT, the Ps3 still has yet to prove their control can pull it off well. I just don't know how precise it is, or if we're gonna see it implemented in ways that aren't even more gimmicky than some of the stuff we've seen on Wii.

I still say Sony HAS to revive Jet Moto. Do any of you guys remember how intense that racing was, but how HARD it was because you had to control the tilt of your bike with the shoulder buttons? Tilt was a necessary dynamic in making that game what it was, but the controls were just not there. That game with next gen graphics and better grapple-hook-tilt cornering is one example where I see the potential of the Ps3. Maybe I'm thinking small, but sometimes it's those little small things that count. Screw the cliche beefy marines and giant bugs, there's a whole history of gaming to mine ideas from.

[thelastword]

How dare you hate on Quake Wars. How can he run it on his single core PC if the game isn't even out yet? From what I've seen Quake Wars looks better than Lair. Hell Quake Wars looks a lot better than alot of things. I'll have go look it up again as it's been a while since I've seen some pics of Quake Wars, but the game looks awesome and I have no doubt I will like it and the majority of gamers will like it more than Lair.Lol, Ok! Well that's the point, RGear is saying that Quake Wars is running solidly on ass old single core tech. I thought he was actually running it at that point and that would be quite interesting, knowing that the game is not even out yet. I'm not denying that QuakeWars will be fun online and might very well sell tonnes, but as it relates to tech, it's not even in the same ballpark.

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

The other problem I'm concerned with "onscreen cues" is that you are not looking at the action anymore but focusing on the "onscreen cues" area to make sure you time it all correctly...and that is truly a lame game mechanic that needs flat out murdered, not killed but drawn and quartered set fire to and dance around like wild indians. All the times I've played a game where they "Cue me" I have felt slighted, like a cheap gaming technique used because of uninspired game mechanics to begin with.

I'm tired of the onscreen cues. Tomb Raider Legend and both God of Wars use it, and I never get to enjoy what's going on in the game when I have to make sure I hit the "A", "X", "Triangle", or "Square". While it's not as bad in TRL as far as missing some of the action, an incorrect buttom press usually means getting the reload screen.

What was the first game to use this, Shenmue?

-

As far as Lair, I would have liked to see an optional analog stick control scheme to go along with the motion control. So far, I haven't embraced the Sixaxis, since I think it's nothing more than a gimmick. The one thing games like Motorstorm have done is give the gamer the option, but I guess one of Lair's big draw is the Sixaxis control. Hopefully they tighten it up by release.

I'm glad Ace Combat 6 isn't a PS3 exclusive (according to OXM, it will be on the system). I think the Namco devs may have felt like they had to use the Sixaxis as its control scheme, and possibly w/o an option for analog stick control.

[Dancer O_o]

Lair is one of the first titles with a heavy focus on motion controls, but it's not the only title which will have great implementations of motion control this year. Uncharted and Hsword are doing some excellent things with motion control just the same. It is important to realize, that the PS3 is not a one game console. When so many Xbots are satisfied with just one major title per year, like Gears of last year and Halo3 this year, PS fans are looking forward to many high profile titles per year. You may think that Motorstorm is shallow as it relates to modes, but Motorstorm's gameplay is rock solid and online play is a blast. Well, we all know how it is with RFOM. As much as some guys here may want to talk out of their pools, out of the most popular genres ou there, it's clear that the PS3 has the best shooter, the best racers in Motorstorm and F1 and the best fighter by a TKO in VF5. You want games using motion control, try flow, you want smaller interesting games, try Calling all Cars which is landing on the 27th.

Everybody wants to talk about motion controls, but many people forget that EY3 TOY HD is landing soon, that is going to take things to the extreme height of control nirvana in games. You know what, I look at the PS3 and I see a medium where anything can be done, the sky's the limit in every aspect as it relates to where you want to go, what you want to push forward, that's what tickles my fancy, that's what makes me grin as to what's upcoming, what's revealed and what's still secretly burning under the bushel.

The motion control in RFOM where you shake the controller to throw enemies off was cheesy, the motion control in Motorstorm is so bad as to put it on ignore and just drive with the stick. So, I'm not going to hold my breath as to whether Factor 5 can get it working correctly for their game. I have yet to see Sixaxis actually work worth a damn, unlike the Wii controls. The Wii also has it's moments of cheese but all in all it works pretty good.

The biggest gripe with Sixaxis next to no feedback is that you are tilting the whole controller around AND are supposed to still be able to execute dual stick movements AND button pushing all with the one pad. The Wii has just a trigger and a few buttons on the Wiimote so it's easy to manipulate that and hit most buttons (not all though), the Chuk has only two perfectly placed buttons and a sweetly positioned analog stick up top. All this Nintendo layed out with motion in mind. The Sixaxis is literally just a revamped dualshock controller that lacks feedback of any kind and is completely unproven as a valid motion controller. If Sony had any real faith in it they would have already incorporated it into the existing launch games and given Nintendo the finger and said "top this chumps!"...this did not happen and most likely never will....

[thelastword]

I may have lately been bashing the Ps3 and praising the 360, but I'm hoping you are right. I think motion control is highly underrated here at sys wars. BUT, the Ps3 still has yet to prove their control can pull it off well. I just don't know how precise it is, or if we're gonna see it implemented in ways that aren't even more gimmicky than some of the stuff we've seen on Wii.
Well it's funny because the Wii is the console with a heavy focus on it's control schematic, funny that you have been so lenient as it relates to all the tacked on controlesqued games so far.


I still say Sony HAS to revive Jet Moto. Do any of you guys remember how intense that racing was, but how HARD it was because you had to control the tilt of your bike with the shoulder buttons? Tilt was a necessary dynamic in making that game what it was, but the controls were just not there. That game with next gen graphics and better grapple-hook-tilt cornering is one example where I see the potential of the Ps3. Maybe I'm thinking small, but sometimes it's those little small things that count. Screw the cliche beefy marines and giant bugs, there's a whole history of gaming to mine ideas from.You know what, when certain people saw the the water in Lair for the first time a next gen "JET MOTO" popped up all over the place, this water and the physics implemeted on the surface is so effin impressive, but you know what Jet Moto is a possibility in the future and so are many other titles.

Fact is, Sony has a wave of titles they can resurrect at any time, Hell, I didn't even mention Warhawk in my last post and that's landing this year as well. Sony is working on Wipeout Next Gen, all these titles are up and coming, but I'm also interested in seeing which rookie IP will come up and just blow everthing else away. So many new titles to hit the PS3 this year and beyond and so many will have great implementations of Motion Control just as the titles mentioned above.

As I said earlier, motion control is not a do or die scenario as it relates to making a must have PS3 game, but it is encouraged, and if implemented correctly and everything syncs and adds up in your game, then clearly, it's going to lend additional appeal to any title in this new gen.

[Dancer O_o]

Well it's funny because the Wii is the console with a heavy focus on it's control schematic, funny that you have been so lenient as it relates to all the tacked on controlesqued games so far.

You know what, when certain people saw the the water in Lair for the first time a next gen "JET MOTO" popped up all over the place, this water and the physics implemeted on the surface is so effin impressive, but you know what Jet Moto is a possibility in the future and so are many other titles.

Fact is, Sony has a wave of titles they can resurrect at any time, Hell, I didn't even mention Warhawk in my last post and that's landing this year as well. Sony is working on Wipeout Next Gen, all these titles are up and coming, but I'm also interested in seeing which rookie IP will come up and just blow everthing else away. So many new titles to hit the PS3 this year and beyond and so many will have great implementations of Motion Control just as the titles mentioned above.

As I said earlier, motion control is not a do or die scenario as it relates to making a must have PS3 game, but it is encouraged, and if implemented correctly and everything syncs and adds up in your game, then clearly, it's going to lend additional appeal to any title in this new gen.

Motion Control will obviously be a do or die for LAIR the game, as Factor 5 has stated that is the ONLY WAY to control the dragons flight. I do like the way the water dimples and warps fairly realistic like in the videos I've seen, there's a scene where a dragon and rider are making flaming passes on some ships and blowing the hell outa them...looks mighty good I must admit.

Jet Moto was a relatively fun game, kind of reminded me of Road Rash on water..who knows, they've reserected worse franchises. I'm already dieing for Wipeout PS3, I still play all versions of this game from time to time, PSP version quite a lot in recent past. Wipeout would definately be one that I would motion control at least the air braking, steer with the left stick and lean the controller in the opposite direction to reverse airbrake as you sometimes needed to do to pinch a corner nicely. Hard to explain but I could see that game as a valid motionable (not a word) gaming experience.

[PapaSmurf]

I'm glad Ace Combat 6 isn't a PS3 exclusive (according to OXM, it will be on the system). I think the Namco devs may have felt like they had to use the Sixaxis as its control scheme, and possibly w/o an option for analog stick control.

Well there's only one way to play Ace Combat games anyways. That's with a joystick and throttle. Anything less is unacceptable. With that I'm assuming they'll either be coming out with a new stick or letting me use my Ace Combat 5 stick.

[thelastword]

The motion control in RFOM where you shake the controller to throw enemies off was cheesy, the motion control in Motorstorm is so bad as to put it on ignore and just drive with the stick. So, I'm not going to hold my breath as to whether Factor 5 can get it working correctly for their game. I have yet to see Sixaxis actually work worth a damn, unlike the Wii controls. The Wii also has it's moments of cheese but all in all it works pretty good.
You know what, some people like using motion control in motorstorm, to each his own. I mean, eff, you're not even talking about games with an emphasis on motion control as such, motion control is not necessary for you to enjoy motorstorm. If it's not for you, you simply use the standard controls, nobody has a gun to your head with respect to it.

The first game built for motion control on PS3 was flow, nobody has complained about it's implementation there and it's also important to know that some people like the implementations in Rfom and Mstorm.


The biggest gripe with Sixaxis next to no feedback is that you are tilting the whole controller around AND are supposed to still be able to execute dual stick movements AND button pushing all with the one pad. The Wii has just a trigger and a few buttons on the Wiimote so it's easy to manipulate that and hit most buttons (not all though), the Chuk has only two perfectly placed buttons and a sweetly positioned analog stick up top. All this Nintendo layed out with motion in mind. The Sixaxis is literally just a revamped dualshock controller that lacks feedback of any kind and is completely unproven as a valid motion controller. If Sony had any real faith in it they would have already incorporated it into the existing launch games and given Nintendo the finger and said "top this chumps!"...this did not happen and most likely never will....
Well the last time I checked, the sixaxis is not a wiimote. Obviously when more games are coded with sixaxis in mind bettter implementations will surface. Naughty Dog is doing some interesting things with Uncharted in that regard. Imagine traversing over a log in Uncharted and using the sixaxis to balance your way through (left-right). Sigma is also going to have interesting uses of MC as well. Of course games like say a New Warhawk, Wipeout or even a Jetmoto will do more with motion control on the PS3, but again the PS3 is only 5 months old and there's a long way to go.

I think though that many people forget, it's more important that the Wii have great implementations of waggle. So far all the titles are simply wii controls tacked on to last gen games. The point is, this is Nintendo's sole strategy, it's actually, do or die for them in that regard.

[Dancer O_o]

The point is, this is Nintendo's sole strategy, it's actually, do or die for them in that regard.

Well, that's pretty accurate, I still can't tell if Nintendo is in a winning situation or not just yet, people could tire of it all quickly and then it's done. Sony will obviously be ok but it's a whole lotta uphill for the moment for them. I think that is why Sony took out a half zillion dollar loan just before PS3 launched, they may have needed money to carry them to profitability.

I can't actually say that the Motorstorm controls where Sixaxis are concerned are bad really, I would need a bunch of time to practice up and see if it is worth the effort. I will try and let you know how that works out.

[Gadfly2317]

Wipeout would definately be one that I would motion control at least the air braking, steer with the left stick and lean the controller in the opposite direction to reverse airbrake as you sometimes needed to do to pinch a corner nicely. Hard to explain but I could see that game as a valid motionable (not a word) gaming experience.

Wipeout is one I want to. I hate how you had to use the stick you were stearing with to also tilt the nose of your craft up and down. Even if six-axis has relatively lame motion-sensing capablities, I'm sure its more than adeqaute for tilting the body of your hover-craft while you steer with the sticks.

Well it's funny because the Wii is the console with a heavy focus on it's control schematic, funny that you have been so lenient as it relates to all the tacked on controlesqued games so far. I haven't been all that lenient, and am pretty pissed for the most part about the way things have been going. I can point out the positives, but Nintendo is selling so well that I find myself much more inclined to complain about what they aren't doing right, need to be doing more of, etc.

Not only do games where the Wii controls feel tacked on annoy me, but I also have been pissed that certain developers think they can just poop out some ugly graphics and have gamers gobble it up (I'm looking at you Ubisoft. Or Poopiesoft as I now believe they should be called.)

And what's up with no original-game-content experimental game channel. I know this is a thread about confusing different SKU's, but Nintendo still has a ways to go in getting its identity together, from the kind of content its channels will deliver to any plan for online. And how can we not have live versions of arcade games like XBLA? I mean, MS doesn't own Joust for christs sake. That type of thing should be for sale as a download, online, on EVERY next gen console.

No, I'm not all warm and fuzzy and blind to the Wii's deficiencies. If their original controller is going to carry them beyond the first year fad, the upcoming titles better be freaking sweet (Metroid, SSBB, Mario Galaxy, No More Heros) and there'd better be some truly unique games unveiled soon.

There, happy now? I've said this before, so hopefully this time you'll remember it. Gadfly doesn't always give Nintendo a free-ride, even if he's pretty lenient. And stoned enough that' he's started talking about himself in the third person. Damn a day off work is a fine thing!

[Renzatic Gear]

Lol, Ok! Well that's the point, RGear is saying that Quake Wars is running solidly on ass old single core tech. I thought he was actually running it at that point and that would be quite interesting, knowing that the game is not even out yet. I'm not denying that QuakeWars will be fun online and might very well sell tonnes, but as it relates to tech, it's not even in the same ballpark.

It's system requirements aren't much higher than original Doom 3. And while it might not be up to par graphically with Lair, it's not hurting much in that department. (http://www.2404.org/downloads/Enemy%20Terrirtory:%20Quake%20Wars/11450690152.jpg)

The average map size in QW is between 16-24 square kilometers, which the engine can handle that quite easily without having to rely on The Power of the Celltm.

[thelastword]

Wipeout is one I want to. I hate how you had to use the stick you were stearing with to also tilt the nose of your craft up and down. Even if six-axis has relatively lame motion-sensing capablities, I'm sure its more than adeqaute for tilting the body of your hover-craft while you steer with the sticks.
We all know that the motion sensing capabilities of the sixaxis is far from lame. As I've said before, the Wii has not yet proven with it's control strategy and heavier emphasis should be geared towards that than the PS3's sixaxis implementations 5 months in. Everyone has nothing but positives as it relates to their downtime with Warhawk on the PS3, a motion control game which is landing this year. Clearly there are a tonne of motion control experiences to look forward to and I do expect some grand acclamations as it relates to MC implementations later on this year on the PS3.


I haven't been all that lenient, and am pretty pissed for the most part about the way things have been going. Well, you see you were the one screaming how much you wanted to experience old and new Ubisoft games on the Wii, like farcry et al. I saw it all from a mile away, If anything, Nintendo will have to sell it's own strategy, as it stands, there's been quite a few misses from third parties.

[thelastword]

It's system requirements aren't much higher than original Doom 3. And while it might not be up to par graphically with Lair, it's not hurting much in that department. (http://www.2404.org/downloads/Enemy%20Terrirtory:%20Quake%20Wars/11450690152.jpg)

The average map size in QW is between 16-24 square kilometers, which the engine can handle that quite easily without having to rely on The Power of the Celltm.Well good, but I'm not going further comparing Lair to Quake Wars, I think it's silly, especially with all what's going on in Lair and of course the tech behind it(progressive mesh), clearly, that has already been detailed.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

L.A.I.R has not been downgraded in any way shape or form, you have to be the most absolute of asses, to think such. Clearly, you like talking about things which you're evidently ignorant on or perhaps this is a troll post but either way it reeks, yes, it reeks of bilous vomit, but that's synonymous to you, so of course lets move on.

The Dragons don't look as good as the orignial teaser trailer with the two dragons interacting with each other.


Even now, as we're speaking about Lair's recent showing, there's a lack of direct footage from that event. What we have though, are heavily compressed footage and of course some cam footage. So of course the dragons won't look as detailed as the direct feed footage we've seen of times yonder, but even then, compressed footage or not, Lair rapes anything on the 360 a million fold. If you only knew how much IGN compresses their media it becomes quite silly that you've got to pay for IGN's HD media when gametrailers offers much more and better media for free.

I watched the videos you posted from Gametrailers.com. If there isn't direct footage to compare how can you make an assement? I'm judging from what's out there. You are stupid lunatic if you believe that Lair rapes everything on the 360 you said that same dumb comment about Motorstorm and wasn't true then. But of course you were going of target renders. Then tried to justify when the game was released and was downgraded severly.




Hardware that's more CPU intensive than GPU intensive? why don't you shut your piehole? Lair makes extensive use of the CPU, if it wasn't for that CPU then Lair could not be done. Hell, no other cpu atm is able to draw 32x32 square km of geometry with with a tonne of detail every two metres and to think that such detail doesn't become any less profound having your dragon soar way up to the clouds or swooping by laying waste just a couple of metres above ground. Clearly you would rather devs complain and continue to make halfass ports on the PS3 not using the spu's entirely. PS3's Cell was built to work in tandem with the RSX, it's just that the Cell is beefy enough to do so much on it's own, in the end it just can't be good for the 360 and to think this is only a first gen game.

Not only are you a raving lunatic you can't read as well. I said lair is more CPU intensive the PS3 is more focused on the Cell than the RSX. I said this. This is the reason for the lack of high range graphical effects in the game. The detail is not great it's decent. And 32x32 environment I'll wait to the game is released to judge that becaue Factor 5 is famous for saying how huge there enviroments are but you can't really play in the whole enviroment (Rogue Leader)


You know what, It's pretty pathetic how desperately clueless you really are. You want to talk about lighting and detail, I refer you then to the 3rd dev walkthrough of Lair at gametrailers. Watch when the lighting strikes in the night level illuminating the rotating heads, the effin detail at that instance is simply out of this world. There's much more footage of Lair available now, including the "Music in Lair" (amazing stuff), the GDC trailer, "the creature's in Lair" and "the indepth interview". Slade, check out the latest trailers at gametrailers.

Check out the walk through of Kameo a game that is nearl two years old that I posted.

]

I think it's pretty useless arguing with you in many respects, the fact is, you are basically saying you're clueless but at the sametime you're attempting to make definitive statements of course on what you're clueless on. I doubt that you have even seen much footage on Lair, I doubt that you've read the tonne of info I've provided in the "Julian Eggebrecht Interview thread", you're just talking out of your anal pool as usual.

You are clueless and you've proved it time and time again. From your outright lies to you pimping hardware you don't own. From every post you make is from a website or interview without ever having any on hands expressions of anything, gimme a break. You are the king strawman of VGR, you and your lil buddy.


When the dragon flames the boats on the sea, there are massive rippling efects on the water surface for crying out loud, it's one of the most apparent of things in any of the videos shown. When the in excess of (a mile) long sea serpent dashes through the ocean, there's a splash along with massive ripples as well. Clearly you are here to spread fud and troll.

There was one explosion and ripple effect. I said that it could be a prescripted animation and not dynmaic physic based effect. I don't know you don't know We'll see. This is System wars you dumb Fook you can't troll. This isn't the Sony love orgy you want it to be.


I think that graw 2 nails smoke effects, not so much fire. That capcom engine does fire really well as I've indicated many times before and of course LP and DMC4 are really impressive there, but you are such a tool, have you seen the fire effects in Genji? You are a onesided drunkened bilebag, who hardly knows a thing about the games on the system you own, farless for the one you don't.

I've played Genji (a little) I've remarked on the fire effects they look awesome. I didn't say the PS3 couldn't do fire I said the fire in lair looks like Sh!t.


As I've said before, Lair is at it's alpha stage, there's a lot of finetuning and optimization to be done. It's a first generation game and sadly, I don't see such an ambitious engine on the 360 at all in the future. If the fire effects are not improved on when it hits stores and stays the way it is in it's curent form, it's still miles and miles ahead of anything out there IMO. The 360 could not dream of having half of such a game running on it without an instant red ring of death and the ushering in of that famous coffin.

So I'm supposed to give a subpar developer the benefit of the doubt? Like people here has done with Too human? Which looks awesome!



At the moment, Motorstorm is the best looking game out there on any console. Resistance is technically better than Gears, Lair rapes everything out there atm and it's coming in July. Clearly you have not played a boxed copy of motorstorm on an hd set no less, talking out your ass as usual. Like I've said, what's more technical? 40 enemies on screen or eight?, much much more geometry and polygons against low poly normal mapped enemies and environs? stretching draw distances with a tonne of effects and chaos against small cooridoorish levels with not much going on at all. So what gives, what effing gives.

Go look up the info about Sony's edge conference. And there is an interview with insomniac. They actually have a discussion about why Gears of War looks better than than Resistance. As for motorstorms whatever man you are so delusional. The envrionments look good but are not as big or detailed as the citys in PGR3 the vehicles definately aren't as detailed granted they are destructable in Motorsorm.


Are massive levels with more effects and more enemies less technical than low poly, normal mapped enemies and environs? I mean don't even answer and you now want to talk abou Lair, a game which can't be done on the 360, desperate times indeed.

Obviously you don't know what normal mapping entails. Seriously go read a wikipedia. As for massivel levels and a bunch of enemies Dead rising and Kameo both have those.



You know what, this reminds me of the early dreamcast days when the PS2 came along, Oh! the dreamcast is just as powerful, Oh! the dreamcast is more powerful, Oh! the dreamcast has better games, Oh! the PS2 does not stand a chance. This crap never gets old, it's like an effin re-run, all the effin time.

Personally I said the DC had better games and Soul Caliber looked better than Tekken I didn't get into the power discussion. In fact I made a recent post about that. And said the PS2 showed it was more powerful from day one.


You know what, if you really want to talk about all the shaders in the book, I refer you to uncharted, yet another game which will leave the 360 in the dust. It's landing this year along with Hsword and Ratchet and Clank, all of these games are beyond what's available and coming to the 360. So let's see, before year (1) is over PS3 gamers got and will have RFOM, VF5, F1-CE, UNCHARTED, HSWORD, MOTORSTORM, LAIR,SINGSTAR, RATCHET, LBP, GT-PROLOGUE, DEMO of FF13 and possibly KILLZONE in OCTOBER. How about all the superior versions of multiplats where the PS3 is the lead console, like BURNOUT for e.g

We'll See I'll make sure to be here to rub your face in it when it doesn't turn out that way.


By all means, compare this lineup to the 360's first year and please remember that there are so many other exclusives landing this year, like FOLK's SOUL, AFRICA, EYEDENTIFY, EYE OF JUDGEMENT and HOT SHOTS GOLF, just to name a few. Are you telling me that the 360 is all that impressive, when Gears, up to this day is the only game that looks next gen on the console and still it's technically below par to the best on PS3 at launch and now.

I can't compare games with you, you have no base of logic. You are totally maniacal. How can I compare games that have been out over a year to games that haven't been released? That makes know since.


You have to be desperate, you just have to, try defending how below par Halo3 looks at this point in time and how many xbot's dreams were shattered when they recently saw the latest footage of Mass Effect. Try defending how Forza looks like ass because in a GT world 30fps is just effing uncivilized.

You are completely insane. The multiplayer Halo looks disappointing graphically. But if you read the updates as diligently as you do anything from Sony you would know they are doing some things graphically in the singleplayer that has never been done in a game. It hasn't been shown yet so I'll hold off. Unlike you who crowns any thing Sony mentions. Mass Effect still looks great. and Forza 2 is 60 fps.

But answer me this. How come when it comes to Sony games there is always more time for polishing. But 360 games that are months from release look like Ass? come on get some objectivity.

[Gadfly2317]

Well, you see you were the one screaming how much you wanted to experience old and new Ubisoft games on the Wii, like farcry et al. I saw it all from a mile away, If anything, Nintendo will have to sell it's own strategy, as it stands, there's been quite a few misses from third parties.

I did want to play a game like Farcry with Wii controls; there is no reason the game had to look like an N64 game. And I didn't see the controls as the problem. Shooting things with the Wii works great. I'm glad you saw it a mile away; we all knew Ubi was trying to cash in on some old titles but I never heard anyone say they thought Ubi was going to pull something THAT embarrassing. I mean good lord, until you've seen that game live and in person and played it you have NO IDEA just how stinking horrid bad it is, uglier than any GC game I've ever played. Even the video clip sections stutter.

We all knew "from a mile away" that third parties were gonna release some of their old stuff with retooled controls, but I never saw anyone predict something like that. For what they did with Far Cry wii, Ubi deserves some kind of special award for achieving a new low.

[ilnadmy]

For what they did with Far Cry wii, Ubi deserves some kind of special award for achieving a new low.

The NEO Achievement Award?

I kiiiid, I kiiiiid. :D

[thelastword]

The Dragons don't look as good as the orignial teaser trailer with the two dragons interacting with each other. The dragons look just as good, but why should I waste any effort trying to prove it to you, Looking at the vid where the dragon is on the grassy battlefield, you can see the dragon much better because it's daytime and the lighting in that scene proves that.



I watched the videos you posted from Gametrailers.com. If there isn't direct footage to compare how can you make an assement? I'm judging from what's out there. You are stupid lunatic if you believe that Lair rapes everything on the 360 you said that same dumb comment about Motorstorm and wasn't true then. But of course you were going of target renders. Then tried to justify when the game was released and was downgraded severly.

We're making assessments based on the best footage available, you wanted to make an assessment based on the worst footage available, that's IGN, you're nothing more than a troll and not even a semi-descent one at that. Every effing person knows that IGN had the worst vids of LAIR.

As it relates to motorstorm, it is the best looking game out there at the moment and technically it's better than any other racer out there. So visually and technically it wins out, End of Story.


Not only are you a raving lunatic you can't read as well. I said lair is more CPU intensive the PS3 is more focused on the Cell than the RSX. I said this. This is the reason for the lack of high range graphical effects in the game. The detail is not great it's decent. And 32x32 environment I'll wait to the game is released to judge that becaue Factor 5 is famous for saying how huge there enviroments are but you can't really play in the whole enviroment (Rogue Leader)For a game with such huge levels, an ensuing war, hundreds of dragons onscreen with flaming balls all over the effin sky, 25,000 troops on the ground, manattees and mile long sea snakes all in one area, the detail is effin phenomenal. Again, useless crap from you, useless troll.

You were trying to downplay the work of the Cell here, when that has always been a feature of it, it can do many graphical processes and working in tandem with the RSX it will shine like no other as is done in Lair, Now try and downplay this "hardware where it's CPU is super strong" and deny the fact, that the RSX has the Xenon beat by a wallop when it comes to pixel shading. You are a desperate drunkened fool, what's new anyway.


Check out the walk through of Kameo a game that is nearl two years old that I posted.
Dude, eff kameo, Kameo is nothing more than a jaggerifc colorful mess, as it relates to graphics Genji wipes the floor with it. I won't even tell you what Lair does to it, but you do know. I'll have you know that Genji uses 4xaa and 8x aniso, so by all means. You want to know of another colorful game that makes Kameo look like absolute ass? Ratchet and Clank and it will have superior gameplay as well. End of Story.


You are clueless and you've proved it time and time again. From your outright lies to you pimping hardware you don't own. From every post you make is from a website or interview without ever having any on hands expressions of anything, gimme a break. You are the king strawman of VGR, you and your lil buddy. What piece of hardware did I say that I have that I don't? How are you going to prove that, you dense effin tool.


There was one explosion and ripple effect. I said that it could be a prescripted animation and not dynmaic physic based effect. I don't know you don't know We'll see. This is System wars you dumb Fook you can't troll. This isn't the Sony love orgy you want it to be.
Well that's just it, you don't know eff all. You just go on spewing crap out your ass, you don't know so why did you comment? because you're an effin troll. Almost every movie on gametrailers has a snippet of the water and how it behaves, from the boats which sways to and fro realistically on the ocean surface to the way water is affected and ripples due to the dragon's fireballs as it destroys the boats on the ocean which then falls apart on the ocean surface. I even pointed out, that you should take note when the sea serpent dashes into the water, in the effin distance, you could see the rest of creature's snaking body meandering and causing ripples in the distance as well. The real question is, if you didn't see all that, then what movies did you watch, cause clearly you are full of it.

Everybody is wowed over the water, hell die hard xbots have declared this water better than the water in crysis, this guy comes in here and says it's not impressive, effin woohoo. I should really take this guy seriously. :rolleyes:



I've played Genji (a little) I've remarked on the fire effects they look awesome. I didn't say the PS3 couldn't do fire I said the fire in lair looks like Sh!t. You have an issue with the fire, do you plan to buy Lair, Do you even plan to buy a PS3 in the next 2 years, I mean you said it. So why do you care that an alpha version of LAIR doesn't stand up to your high standards for FIRE effects. I mean this game is already so impressive just as it is, to say the fire effects is to nitpick the eff out of it, but it's nothing new, you do have your agenda.



So I'm supposed to give a subpar developer the benefit of the doubt? Like people here has done with Too human? Which looks awesome! OK! so you've got beef with Factor 5, didn't realize, Oh! but it's clear now isn't it.


Go look up the info about Sony's edge conference. And there is an interview with insomniac. They actually have a discussion about why Gears of War looks better than than Resistance. As for motorstorms whatever man you are so delusional. The envrionments look good but are not as big or detailed as the citys in PGR3 the vehicles definately aren't as detailed granted they are destructable in Motorsorm.
Why don't you quote it you dense tool, you're trying to convince me. Visually Gears looks better to the immediate eye, technically RFOM is better. At the end of the day though, it's all about what looks good to you is better texture work overall superior to effects and better geometry, in the end it's all up to you.

600P PGR3 does not look better than Mstorm at 720P 30fps that is both visually and technically, man are you for real? Hell, PGR3 does not evenlook better than F1CE and certainly not better than GTHD, but even the 360's top racer can't seem to beat GTHD in terms of visuals. Dude, It's a sad song and it won't get better. Hell, Burnout will be a 1080P 60fps racer with better Ai, better physics and generally better graphics as well, and please try to convince me that you've played F1 and GTHD. As of right now with games that are out across all systems, Mstorm wins hands down.


Obviously you don't know what normal mapping entails. Seriously go read a wikipedia. As for massivel levels and a bunch of enemies Dead rising and Kameo both have those. Did I say they didn't, as a matter of fact, Kameo and PDO made use parallax maps, does that make them the best looking games ever, NO, it does not.


Personally I said the DC had better games and Soul Caliber looked better than Tekken I didn't get into the power discussion. In fact I made a recent post about that. And said the PS2 showed it was more powerful from day one.Why did you, because you wanted to make the ridiculous argument that the easy to program XboX showed it's superiority from day one right? You guys are so effin predictable.


We'll See I'll make sure to be here to rub your face in it when it doesn't turn out that way. No, you'll pray that it's not that way, you'll enter your dark magic books and call on thunder and hail that it's not that way. Keep fighting that good fight.


I can't compare games with you, you have no base of logic. You are totally maniacal. How can I compare games that have been out over a year to games that haven't been released? That makes know since. Didn't you just compare a 360 launch game to a PS3 game at alpha. Are you that drunk?


You are completely insane. The multiplayer Halo looks disappointing graphically. But if you read the updates as diligently as you do anything from Sony you would know they are doing some things graphically in the singleplayer that has never been done in a game. It hasn't been shown yet so I'll hold off. Unlike you who crowns any thing Sony mentions. Mass Effect still looks great. and Forza 2 is 60 fps.
You know what, I've not jumped to any conclusions as it relates to Halo. I expect that it will look better than it does now, I hope so for your sake. As it relates to Mass Effect, weren't you the guy who was pimping the hell out of it last week and how it looks better than anything on the PS3? Dude, there's no more room left for bullet entry in your cap, it's over.


And yes, Forza 1 at 30fps does not look better than GT4, do you believe that Forza2 at 60fps will look better than GT5? Get a clue..I mean really.


But answer me this. How come when it comes to Sony games there is always more time for polishing. But 360 games that are months from release look like Ass? come on get some objectivity.To be very honest with you, I do expect Halo3 to look better than it does at this point, I mean it just has too dammnit.

[ilnadmy]

I think the scroller on my mouse is going to break soon if I keep flicking through these posts much longer.

[Mochan]

I did want to play a game like Farcry with Wii controls; there is no reason the game had to look like an N64 game.

This is going to be the problem of the Wii down the road. While it's true that FarCry Wii could have looked at least like say Spiderman Wii, as I noted FPS gamers demand the best visuals and 3 years from now even if say Crysis Wii looked like it was better than a GC or XBox game, people will go, "man I wish it didn't look like an XBox game" because by then the bar for visuals will be in such a high place no Wii game could touch it.

Fortunately graphics isn't the be all end all but I know quite a few FPS gamers will be disappointed. The ones who will be happy (or content, I should say) will be primarily non-FPS gamers who want to experience a good FPS with good controls, but who don't necessarily need cutting edge graphics. This is probably the reason why GC gamers can be happy with something like Metroid Prime Hunters, whereas PCers or XBots just can't get into it, even though MPH isn't by any means a bad game. It's just behind the FPS curve set on other systems.

And fortunately, the Wii can still be successful in other genres, and I'd imagine even the most hardcore FPS gamer will want to try an FPS on the Wii at least once. I know I sure do.

[Renzatic Gear]

This is probably the reason why GC gamers can be happy with something like Metroid Prime Hunters, whereas PCers or XBots just can't get into it, even though MPH isn't by any means a bad game. It's just behind the FPS curve set on other systems.

You know I'm a hardcore PC FPS guy, and I love every Metroid Prime game released. They might not be boasting the most cutting edge graphic techniques, but they make up for that with style.

And TLW, your crusade against UE3 and it's heavy bent towards normalmaps is kinda stupid in an uneducated sorta way. If you look at any shot of Resistance, you can see heavy, heavy, HEAVY use of normalmapping. Wanna know how to spot it? Look at those muscles on the enemies. All those little grooves and throwaway details. Wanna know how they're normalmapped? Because achieving that level of detail on a single model would require millions of polygons. Now imagine 5-10 of those models running around in detailed all poly-no normalmapped surroundings and landscapes. That's a whole ****ton of polygons, maybe pushing into 50,000,000 or so range. The PS3...hell, supercomputers that cost millions...are incapable of doing that in realtime at that level of detail. So, in short, the Resistance engine might be a bit better than UE3, but nowhere near as good as what you're claiming.

Also, you're a hypehappy jackass.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

The dragons look just as good, but why should I waste any effort trying to prove it to you, Looking at the vid where the dragon is on the grassy battlefield, you can see the dragon much better because it's daytime and the lighting in that scene proves that.

Go find the orignal video for lair. The one from E3 2k5 if you think the dragon looks that good I can't say anything else to you. Your delusions are total.




We're making assessments based on the best footage available, you wanted to make an assessment based on the worst footage available, that's IGN, you're nothing more than a troll and not even a semi-descent one at that. Every effing person knows that IGN had the worst vids of LAIR.

Listen Jerkoff. I'm talking about the Videos you posted! Gametrailers the walkthrough dumb ass!

As it relates to motorstorm, it is the best looking game out there at the moment and technically it's better than any other racer out there. So visually and technically it wins out, End of Story.

Look at the ugly ass low poly vehicles in that game the final release game. No it's not the best looking racer. It does have a whole bunch of them though so that's something.