Stupidity, misinformation & why you don't NEED HDMI

[Gamer From '78]

First, let me get this out of the way. The announcement of the new Xbox 360 "Elite" system is just stupid. I understand that for those who plan to download large amounts of content, a larger HDD is probably a necessity. However, I must point out that my old Xbox only had an 8-gig HDD and I never used even a half-gig of it with hundreds of CD's burned to it and game saves out the wazoo.

I don't plan, have any intention or will even entertain the notion of buying a new system let alone a new HDD. $180? Microsoft is F'n nuts! But for them, it makes financial sense to screw gamers. After all, those who already bought an Xbox 360 and want to upgrade are forced to spend $180 for what is essentially a $100 component AT BEST. So they charge a buttload, bring their price closer to the PS3 with minimal investment. NOW...

From everything I have ever read (prior to even having a passing interest in HD-gaming), HDMI is NOT needed to receive a 1080p signal on your 1080p set! The only true advantage to the end user with HDMI over Component and DVI is integrated audio. THAT'S IT! Did you know that with a length any more than 6-foot, HDMI signal degrades severely? That's why you don't see cables longer than 6-foot!

Sony's Kaz Hirai and Phil Harrison BOTH confirmed after the PS3 2-SKU announcement that HDMI is NOT needed to receive a 1080p signal. What manufacturers and particuarly CONTENT PROVIDERS (ie movie studios) love about HDMI is the built-in ICT or Image Constraint Token. This helps curb piracy as it severely downgrades the image quality.

The reason that Microsoft already added 1080p support to the Xbox 360 prior to this new unit is because it CAN display in 1080p WITHOUT HDMI cables.

And for those who want PROOF of this, here is a section from Wikipedia about the whole affair. Basically, HDMI supporters are just trying to shove the output down everyone's throat for future anti-piracy protection as HD-DVD and Blu-Ray copying start to become prevalent.

"Component video is capable of producing signals such as 480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p, but, according to some, digital connections such as DVI (video only) and HDMI
(which can also include up to 8 channels of audio) generally give
better results at the higher resolutions (up to 1080p). HDMI also
includes both a video and audio signal in a single cable."

taken from wikipedia

Furthermore, the best audio standard to date is optical which both the PS3 and Xbox 360 support "out-of-the-box." This is the truest form of digital audio. For those who wish to game with their sound through a receiver, you MUST use either RCA or optical as HDMI connects directly through the same cable to your television. True surround is best accomplished when your television's internal speakers are turned off and an amplifier seperates the sound through 5.1 or 6.1 channels (Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS 6.1)

So for all those who bought an Xbox 360 already, don't worry about HDMI support and for those PS3 guys who think you have to have it, the same applies. HDMI is not needed to attain 1080p resolutions and WILL NOT boost signal clarity. It also limits your cable length from more or less as long as you want with Component to 6-feet or less with HDMI.

Microsoft, shove it up your can. :mad:

[Gamer From '78]

I found this article informative in making buying decisions awhile back and it applies to this subject as well.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/122868.html

[folken001]

Hmm, I think M$ knows what HDMI is. The best thing about HDMI is the signal will be uncompressed. After all, it's just a nice option for xbots to play their game with even higher quality. Other than that fact that this shows that M$ is hypocritical and this is giving Sony more breathing room, I don't see how people can get mad at them. You don't have to get it, if you don't want to.

[Gamer From '78]

Hmm, I think M$ knows what HDMI is. The best thing about HDMI is the signal will be uncompressed. After all, it's just a nice option for xbots to play their game with even higher quality. Other than that fact that this shows that M$ is hypocritical and this is giving Sony more breathing room, I don't see how people can get mad at them. You don't have to get it, if you don't want to.

There is no video compression running through Component inputs.

Component displays video signals through three seperate channels: Y, Pb and Pr

HDMI and DVI are also displayed through three seperate channels: red, green and blue

The main difference is in the manner of transmission. Component is a series of variating voltages while HDMI is a bitstream. A different manner of transmission, but no clear-cut winner of the two. Some set-top boxes, DVR's, HD-receivers etc. work better with HDMI. Some work better with Component.

[PapaSmurf]

We had a discussion about this in the PC forums as to DVI/HDMI/Component. I had just bought a 24" monitor for PC and Console gaming and there were other more expensive monitors that had the HDMI input. HDMI I think is stupid on both the input and output end because things become just that more expensive. When I was in the search for a monitor that would satisfy my PC gaming need and my next-gen console HD needs this became quite a thing to research. In the end the monitor without HDMI was easily 100-200$ cheaper which I found outrageous since the component and HDMI produce damn near the same result except I don't get sound with component, but that's easily solved if not even better because I may want surround sound.

Mochan however did bring up the that HDMI feed is digital while the component feed was something else and it does produce a somewhat different quality in the picture. However I think he also said that difference in the picture is barely any so I guess like you said, it makes the point moot.

[folken001]

I am not completely well educated in this area. But, from what I read a while back, HDMI/DVI is supposed to be error free. The only problem is that no equipments right now will provide challenge causing constant errors to component as of right now. In the future, there will probably be.

If you read over articles on internet, they all say it depends on the equipment. But, I think, generally speaking, unless you know exactly what you are doing or you have the money to try things out repeatedly, HDMI is probably the best bet.

Also, I am kinda confused why you are complaining about the hdd price now. 180 for 120 GB is actually the better deal than the old 20 GB for 99 dollars. If you didn't care back then, why all the sudden you care now

[MoNkEy MaN X]

Actually once there are good afordable a/v recievers that can decode HDMI video and audio and arn't just a pass through, HDMI makes alot of sense as a consumer. One cable for everything is great. Less mess in the back. That is one big plus on our side.

As far as signal degradation, I wouldn't be to sure about that after 6ft. I would think it would be something like 20ft or something. Also, for long runs of cable you have thicker cables that can be had. I'm pretty sure the same goes for most cables due to interference and such. Well, except for optical cables.

I think the HDMI cables support more audio formats than the optical output. I've notice that the optical out on the PS3 will only do some kind of compressed format. I believe that is where the HDMI comes in, the 7.1 uncompressed surround sound output.

Once again, HDMI will be good once there are afordable recievers. Also, if you want to view HD-DVDs or Blu-Ray movies in 1080p you do need to either go DVI or HDMI. It is due to the copy protection or something like that. If a game supports 1080p though, component will do just fine.

[Mochan]

I've read that, generally speaking, HDMI/DVI is better to use when you have a digital flat panel like an LCD, whereas Component or VGA is more or less better for analogue displays like a plasma, because the signal is of the same type. Myself, since I have an LCD now and would like to get an LCD TV in the future, I would rather have HDMI or DVI. Actually to be honest I would rather just have DVI, the problem is that both 360 and PS3 don't have DVI output, and it's hard to find DVI to Component or whatever cables so getting an HDMI set with an HDMI monitor would simplify things greatly for me.

That said, you know what, the main reason I want the 360 Elite over the regular 360s is because it's well, black. I've a thing for black.

[theWacoKid]

Current cables can reach 50 feet without experiencing degradation if manufactured properly. You're better off with short runs, but cables only come in 6 foot runs or less?! WTF!!?

ICT is a flag that no current studio even bothers to employ. So why bring it up, since its a non fu#$ing issue?

You're not going to transmit a 1080p signal from either blu ray or hd-dvd thru component. You want 1080p, you need hdmi.

The highest end audio codecs, True HD, DTS-MA, Uncompressed LCPM have to pass thru hdmi. Optical doesn't have the bandwidth to support these formats and you'll wind up with downmixed versions of these formats.

You want to upconvert dvds, you need hdmi or vga, you can't upconvert via component.

All current hdtvs feature hdmi support. It is the new standard going forward, like it or not. Most receivers going forward are going to include hdmi swtiching and/or upconversion. MS had two decisions, to either support hdmi fully or not. They chose half assed, half hearted suppor instead. They're frickin stupid.

[PapaSmurf]

Alright so in order to watch HD-DVD and Blue-Ray in 1080p you need an HDMI cable, but the component will still produce in 1080i? However when talking about game (which is why I'm going to buy one of these consoles some day) I can use component cable to produce 1080p games? If you can't produce 1080p games from component, what was the point of MS putting component cables in with the 360, so I'm just going to assume I'm getting 1080p gaming with my component cables.

At the end of the day though, 1080i or 1080p, can anyone really tell an effin difference? This whole arguement is sounding stupid to me now.

[Jaa Phaanom]

At the end of the day though, 1080i or 1080p, can anyone really tell an effin difference? This whole arguement is sounding stupid to me now.

I have a 56" 720p Samsung DLP. A couple of weeks ago I decided to get a 56" 1080P Samsung DLP because I wanted to be able to watch Blu-Ray and HD-DVD movies in full 1080p. I sit about 12ft away from the screen. I really can't say that I noticed much of a difference if any. I didn't really start noticing anything until I got closer to the screen. When you have to really try to notice the difference, I don't think it's really worth it.

[trebor]

Another thing to consider is when the shift to HD broadcasting occurs in 2009, it will all be broadcast in 720p/1080i - NOT 1080p. In fact, nearly all HD content that is currently available through cable/satellite providers is actually 720p, with only a few in 1080i.

Given that, the ONLY advantage gained from 1080p sets is if one also makes the jump to Blu-ray/HD-DVD or (in the context of this forum) a PS3/Xbox 360 and even then, as Jaa Phantom stated, the difference between 1080i and 1080p is negligable at best - your average person will never know the difference between the two. One thing that is inarguable is that the difference between 1080i and 1080p is nowhere near the difference between 480i and 720p/1080i, thus there is almost nothing to be lost by saving yourself $1000s of dollars by going the 1080i route.

Lastly, if 1080p DID ever become any form of standard, by that time the cost of a 1080p television will have dropped significantly from their current costs.

[MoNkEy MaN X]

Don't forget that a HDMI port will support DVI. Essential it is a like signal just minus the audio. My cable box has a DVI out, I just bought a DVI to HDMI cable and it works fine. Go over to monoprice.com and pick them up real cheap. That is what I did. That is also why I didn't complain that Sony didn't include a HDMI cable.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Its been a minute since I read up on this, but let me try and correct you to the best of what i remember.

First it is true the XBOX can output 1080P over component and VGA..... Secondly the main problem with outputting 1080P across Component or VGA cables is the fact that MOST 1080P TV sets, like mine for instance, will only accept up to 1080i via component. So the problem is not really the 360 but the fact most TVs won't take 1080P via component. 360 will also pass 1080P across VGA, but the problem here is most TVs don't have a VGA port. My TV actually has one, but it too only goes up to 1080i.

Here is an article from IGN gear for those who want the details.

<a href="http://gear.ign.com/articles/735/735860p1.html"> MS Confirms 1080P </a>

Someone mentioned they have a 56inch 1080P set and can only tell the difference if they sit relatively close. This is not unusual. First of all 1080P can only be visually seen if your TV screen is 50inches and bigger. Anything smaller really doesn't matter in terms of visual difference. But manufacturers and stores won't tell you this. So anyone in the market for like a 37inch or 42in plasma or LCD, don't even spend the extra $ for 1080P.

Next, if you do get a 1080P set, you have to sit at the proper distance in order to actually have the resolution 'register' optically. Your TV's manual should tell you, based on the size of your TV, what the maximum optimal viewing distance is.

Anyway 1080P is I don't want to say overrated but it is confusing. Even 1080i may not be better than 720p it just depends on your TVs native resolution. For example my TVs native resolution is 1080P, so I should set my XBOX to the closest resolution to this 1080i. But if your TV supports 1080i but actually has a native resolution of 720p then you should set your 360 to output at 720p, not 1080i even though your TV supports it, it is not the native resolution which means circuitry is being used to achieve 1080i, circuitry which invariably ends up making the signal look worse. So the best thing people can do is first know the native rez of your set, then adjust your components to match it as close as possible.

[Gamer From '78]

Its been a minute since I read up on this, but let me try and correct you to the best of what i remember.

First it is true the XBOX can output 1080P over component and VGA..... Secondly the main problem with outputting 1080P across Component or VGA cables is the fact that MOST 1080P TV sets, like mine for instance, will only accept up to 1080i via component. So the problem is not really the 360 but the fact most TVs won't take 1080P via component. 360 will also pass 1080P across VGA, but the problem here is most TVs don't have a VGA port. My TV actually has one, but it too only goes up to 1080i.

Here is an article from IGN gear for those who want the details.

<a href="http://gear.ign.com/articles/735/735860p1.html"> MS Confirms 1080P </a>

Someone mentioned they have a 56inch 1080P set and can only tell the difference if they sit relatively close. This is not unusual. First of all 1080P can only be visually seen if your TV screen is 50inches and bigger. Anything smaller really doesn't matter in terms of visual difference. But manufacturers and stores won't tell you this. So anyone in the market for like a 37inch or 42in plasma or LCD, don't even spend the extra $ for 1080P.

Next, if you do get a 1080P set, you have to sit at the proper distance in order to actually have the resolution 'register' optically. Your TV's manual should tell you, based on the size of your TV, what the maximum optimal viewing distance is.

Anyway 1080P is I don't want to say overrated but it is confusing. Even 1080i may not be better than 720p it just depends on your TVs native resolution. For example my TVs native resolution is 1080P, so I should set my XBOX to the closest resolution to this 1080i. But if your TV supports 1080i but actually has a native resolution of 720p then you should set your 360 to output at 720p, not 1080i even though your TV supports it, it is not the native resolution which means circuitry is being used to achieve 1080i, circuitry which invariably ends up making the signal look worse. So the best thing people can do is first know the native rez of your set, then adjust your components to match it as close as possible.

This turned into a good thread, though a person or two managed to go off the deep-end.

When I got my replacement DirecTV HD-Receiver, the new model included an HDMI port. Though my television only goes to 1080i and has a DVI port, I purchased the conversion cable (again, you only lose the audio, otherwise the two are the same). I switched back and forth between the component and HDMI/DVI and noticed no difference when sitting at the proper distance for my 51" Sony.

I personally feel that other than those who HAVE a 1080p native set and a desire to watch HD-DVD or Blu-Ray films, there is no need to go with the whole thing.

[joquito]

HDMI offers digital video, greater colors than Component video/ VGA, and offers 2 way controls to do things such as turn on/off other components, or automatically adjust picture settings, etc. If you own a CRT HDTV, then it offers no advantages from a video standpoint. If you own a Plasma/ LCD/ SXRD/ DLP, then it really does offer advantages. Plasma, LCD, DLP HD-iLA, etc are all digital displays that display images by using elements that switch on and off to create an image.

HDMI transmits digital data without being converted to analog. With Component Video cables, the data starts digital, is converted to analog, the data runs through the cables, the are converted back to digital to be displayed (If used on a Digital Display). Granted most products sporting an HDMI connection are not 100% HDMI compliant, which is why there have been so many headaches getting the connection to work properly (EDID). Also, most < $100.00 DVD players have crappy video processors, so the picture quality is going to suck whether it is transmitted from Component video or HDMI. Its like pour boxed wine into a expensive chalice.

Regarding videogames, HDMI is the preferred way to go due to the lack of D/A and A/D conversions. Regarding the Xbox360, your TV will be the limiting factor, not the difference between Component video cables and HDMI. A good HDTV will look awesome even with Component video cable. Unless you own a Pioneer Elite or Runco HDTV, you are kidding yourself if you think you are getting anything resembling 1080p resolution, so don't buy into the 1080p fallacy. Remember, a 10 megapixel Kodak camera will not take pictures as nice as a 4 megapixel Leica.

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

I'm in the process of getting a HDMI cable for my PS3. The component cables work just fine for my 360 (no Elite for me), but it didn't take long for me to remember that the PS3 was packaged with composite cable. I mainly want/need a HDMI cable because I want to have the 360, PS2, and PS3 hooked up to my tv without one of those a/v selector boxes, and I ran out of component inputs. Also, I was told where to get one that wasn't around $100+ like at Circuit City and Best Buy.

[MoNkEy MaN X]

Cables are cheap at monoprice.com (http://www.monoprice.com)

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

I thought about ordering some, but I didn't want to wait too long to get them. I found some in-store for a good price.