Ps3 Emulation, How Far Is It? [Archive]

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thelastword

12-18-2006, 04:32 PM

Further proof of PS3's powerful CPU and Sony's dedication to it's gamers..

HarakoMeshi Q/A
December 15, 2006 -

"Xbox was 6x as powerful as PS2 as per Itagaki.
You'd have to be an idiot to talk the way you talk about this...."
-- noname XBOT

HarakoMeshi>
That's just PR from Itagaki. He knows as well as everyone its not true.

I worked on Xbox and PS2 and I'm a specialist in emulators. Don't lecture me about power and emulation. Xbox was not more 6X more powerful than PS2. Xbox CPU is much less powerful than PS2 CPU, and it is much easier to emulate at a high level. Look at the great Xbox emulators for PC. It is very easy.

If we wanted we could make a great Xbox emulator for PS3 in just a few months work; I bet we could get more compatibility than MS could do themselves, because we have a much better team.

And look, MS requires you to download an update for every game you want to play. Why? Because the update contains a statically re-compiled, modified version of the Xbox game made to run on the 360. PS3 doesn't require any downloads. Everything is translated dynamically at runtime.

It is not only about power it is about ease of emulation. PS3 is technically 60 times faster than a PS2 but it doesn't mean its easy to emulate a PS2. Cell is by far the only commercial CPU powerful enough to emulate a PS2 completely at this time.

"You don't seem to understand that PS3 isn't really backward compatible at all in a real sense- its just a PS2 plus a PS3, the PS3 itself is not at this time bacward compatible."
-- noname XBOT

HarakoMeshi>
That's funny dumbass, because I worked on the thing you're talking about. The current PS3 emulates PS2 half in software and half in hardware, and part of my work right now is removing the hardware part completely.

"HM, why are you even talking about PS2 emulation when the PS3 has the entire PS2 hardware sitting right there on the mobo?"
-- -- noname XBOT

HarakoMeshi>
Being backwards compatible is done by any means necessary.

The PS3 is 97.5% compatible, with the assistance of some hardware. It doesn't have a PS2 soldered on, it only has a limited part of it. If there was 100% of the PS2 soldered on there would be no problem.

The situation is that we wanted to give you 100% or near 100% at all costs, so we put the hardware in as a contingency plan to guarantee that. Although even with the partial hardware assistance I can tell you it was still quite a nightmare.

Believe it or not we do care about what you get from our products, and every claim Sony's ever made was a true target. In fact, right here on my desk I have a PS3 with dual HDMI, 3 gigabit ports, etc. things that Sony developed but in the end got cut out because of price and they were not so important - but Sony could release a future SKU with those if they were important.

Backwards compatibility is not just about writing a great emulator. Sony stated that all games that respect TRCs would be compatible. In fact games are full of bugs, and a very large part of the work is fixing bugs in the games, not fixing the emulator.

In fact we do have the entire PS2 running in software on PS3 already at full speed. It is only in its final testing phases since we have to test many thousands of games... you know because if someone finds a little problem it'll be pasted on forums everywhere http://forums.e-mpire.com/images/smilies/smilehappy.gif. Maybe I should paste some photos of my 360 refusing to play half of my games completely...

That chip that is apparently costing you something out of that $600 (more accuratly costing Sony for putting it in for your usage since Sony is selling the PS3 at heavy discount) is going to vaporize very soon.

Ocelot

12-18-2006, 04:40 PM

LOL, I actually read this in another forum the other day. Sort of makes sence but i think we would need a dedicated emulator running soley for PS3 and that version of Linux. I've even heard that they have Windows XP up and running on PS3 through Linux. So considering the RSX is nVidia, and PS3 is basically a PC? The ski's the limit.

Renzatic Gear

12-18-2006, 06:33 PM

There's one thing this guy said that makes me a little suspicious about him:

Xbox CPU is much less powerful than PS2 CPU, and it is much easier to emulate at a high level. Look at the great Xbox emulators for PC. It is very easy.

There's no denying that the Xbox CPU was weak in comparison to the PS2's, but the thing is there aren't any Xbox emulators for the PC at the moment. CXBX was the closest thing anyone ever did for an Xbox emulator, and it wasn't an emulator in the strictest sense of the word...it was basically a DirectX wrapper. It also didn't run any games worth crap.

It kinda puts a shadow on everything else the guy says. To me it sounds more like a Sony fanboy pretending he's working on a PS2 emulator so he can scream about how awesome Cell is. His whole attitude sounds like a cross between a corporate shill and an obnoxious happyfan.

Gamer88

12-18-2006, 07:00 PM

Renzatic Gear

12-18-2006, 08:30 PM

Yeah, the guy is about full of crap. He does some name dropping, and throws around a few impressive words to make it sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but he doesn't really give any solid info beyond CELL IS AWESOME LOOK PERFECT EMULATOR 360 SUXXXX!

Take this for instance:

Backwards compatibility is not just about writing a great emulator. Sony stated that all games that respect TRCs would be compatible. In fact games are full of bugs, and a very large part of the work is fixing bugs in the games, not fixing the emulator.

Two things are wrong with that.

1. How is he able to fix the bugs in the game without having access to the game's code? Even if they were to get the code for a thousand plus games and go through them all with a fine toothed comb, it wouldn't be cost effective and it'd lead to you having to download patches...something guy was bashing MS about.

2. If he's writing an emulator that's as perfect and awesome as he's claiming, then the bugs in these games would show up exactly as they did on the PS2. Considering the number of games the PS2 has that have game-breaking bugs, this shouldn't be an issue.

So once again, I'm gonna say the guy is full of ****. It's the same as that one guy who claimed DVD9s made it impossible for Bethesda to use high res textures, when they barely even filled half a disc with the entire game.

In short, it's amazingly stupid of people to pretend they're Sony insiders just so they can hype up their favorite box of chips. And the people that post these little writeups as PROOF POSITIVE are even worse. I don't care how powerful the Cell processor is. When I see it produce games I want and can't play anywhere else, or it uses all those gigaflops to leaps out of the PS3 and give me visious head before I go to bed at night...then I'll care.

NEO-360

12-18-2006, 10:11 PM

The late Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder could've seen that this story was bogus.:rolleyes:

Cuddly Knife

12-19-2006, 12:10 AM

Further proof of Sony's dedication to it's gamers.
MotorStorm Import Impressions
Sony Japan pushes a potentially killer title out the door too early.
by Anoop Gantayat

December 18, 2006 - If you're desperate to get your hands on MotorStorm, you might have considered importing the Japanese version of the game. Well I'm here to save you fifty bucks with a quick mental exercise.

First, power up your PS3, go into the PlayStation Store, and download that impressive MotorStorm demo that everyone has been talking about. Play it, taking note of a few areas in particular -- the title screen, with the rolling video in the background, the festival mode, which uses "tickets" to stand for racing events, the car select screen, which likes to keep you waiting while it loads up new car models, and so forth. Now (and here comes the mental part), close your eyes and picture that exact same demo, but with the following:

1. More video in the background during the title screen.

2. A set of six high definition movies under the movie section of the main menu. Included is a neat little look at how Motorstorm has progressed from an early demo featuring rough polygonal cars, to its not-so-final shape in the Japanese release, and a live action flythrough of Monument Valley, the setting for the game.

3. A bunch of additional racing tickets, some locked away until you've cleared the easier events.

4. An additional selection screen prior to some races that allows you to select a type of car. This allows you to, as just one example, drive a truck in a race full of motorcycles. I don't think I need to let you know what happens next.

5. A few additional effects to make an already pretty game even prettier.

Got all that? Congratulations! You've just imagined the final Japanese version of Motorstorm.

Based on its Japanese release (and I'll remind you that the version I'm writing about isn't the one that's due out in the West), Motorstorm is the most featureless racer I've ever played. There are only a couple of options, for adjusting the sound and screen and switching the motion sensor controls on and off. Missing are options for adjusting the number of opponents and track count, and such standard modes such as free run and time attack.

The game doesn't even have any form of multiplayer racing. While we knew about the lack of online in the Japanese version, there's no multiplayer what-so-ever, not even split screen!

Motorstorm also shipped to Japan with some of the glaring problems from the demo still in place. Load times prior to the start of a race can take up to 45 seconds. Car selection requires that you wait for new car models to load up, and you can't even see your car's stats on the selection screen (the stats are available in the manual). It's exactly like the demo, and is unacceptable for a final product.

Mochan

12-19-2006, 02:42 AM

The XBox Emulator on PC part was the most glaring issue I saw as well.

thelastword

12-19-2006, 03:53 AM

There's one thing this guy said that makes me a little suspicious about him:

There's no denying that the Xbox CPU was weak in comparison to the PS2's, but the thing is there aren't any Xbox emulators for the PC at the moment. CXBX was the closest thing anyone ever did for an Xbox emulator, and it wasn't an emulator in the strictest sense of the word...it was basically a DirectX wrapper. It also didn't run any games worth crap.

It kinda puts a shadow on everything else the guy says. To me it sounds more like a Sony fanboy pretending he's working on a PS2 emulator so he can scream about how awesome Cell is. His whole attitude sounds like a cross between a corporate shill and an obnoxious happyfan.
Harako Meshi is the real deal, Gear, you're always so quick to assume things based on nothing, the point is, it's easier to emulate the xbox than the PS2 due to the CPU, he was quite positive that he could do better BC for the xbox with his team than MS could, on the PS3 noless in mere months. I mean obviously he's a Sony employee, but that's not the first we've heard from Harako.

Sony's R&D team is based in London, specifically the team working on BC. The engine being used for ColinMcrae is part of another R&D team as well, that has been known for ages.

Gamer88:

First off, devs do curse, David Jaffe anybody, and yeah, he was once banned from gaf for telling a poster that his mom had a loose twat, of course only in response to some massive trolling, some fans are that desperate.

Secondly, this was not an interview per se, nothing formal, this was taken off a forum where Harako Meshi posts, so he was responding to some bots who were in drivel mode.

link to the thread where Harako made these posts (http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=21035&page=2)

Gear cont'd

Who is Harako Meshi? well......

Originally Posted by HarakoMeshi
.....
Myself I would never give up a chance to play MGS4 or FF13 in exchange for Halo 3. I'm a Brit and I think majority of Brits can live without Halo more than PS franchises. However I got both so I don't have to give up anything.
.......

Originally Posted by HarakoMeshi
.....
I happen to work on PS1 & PS2 emulation for Sony so I have lists of which were the most popular games by sales, and I've tried hundreds upon hundreds of games. In the states the picture is similar to Europe except for Madden being near the top. In Japan they have a ton of obscure things that we never see over here.
...... Harako Meshi going into detail about his work...

Originally Posted by HarakoMeshi
You have no clue.

The problem is only apparent on a small number of games, and it is being worked on.

The problem is with games that use native 512 pixel wide format screens, when that is upconverted to 640 the filter is not sufficiently good. It's like if you load a 512 pixel bitmap in MS Paint, and stretch it to 640 it looks like crap.

So Sony is adding a better filter for that and it'll be fixed very soon. It applies to less than 10% of games anyway.

By comparison 360 compatibility is utter **** compared to PS3. It only playes a small percentage of its games, and many of those have bugs too. And Xbox is a much much much simpler system to emulate than a PS2.

Xbox has no support DLLs so their code is completely static. MS just statically recompiles the code from x86 to PPC. Then the Xbox has absolutly no low-level hardware access, everything is through a library call, like to play a video - DirectPlayVideo("myvideo.wmv"). All they have to do is High Level Emulate (HLE) the libraries on the 360, which is already fully capable of running almost any DirectX code.

Contrasting to PS2, PS2 has near 100% low level hardware access and more devices running in parallel and more programmable, and DLLs + overlays which makes the code dynamic. It's like 20 times harder to emulate a PS2 game than an Xbox game, and they still didn't do as good a job as Sony.

It just shows MS doesn't really care about its customers as much as Sony.
Scrivener said many things, most have come true, there's actually blood in HSWORD now, he said next time we see HSWORD it will look like advent children, He spoke of the progress of Killzone which Harrison affirmed, there were many doubters just the same, but the real deal is the real deal. Fact is greater than fiction, When BC via emulation lands, I'll want to hear some of you guys as many have eaten daily doses of crow from Scrivener's writing.

Gadfly2317

12-19-2006, 05:01 AM

Harako Meshi is the real deal, Gear, you're always so quick to assume things based on nothing.

Based on NOTHING??? Gear gave specific and concrete examples of misinformation in "Harako's" post that make him seem less than legit.

Why don't you actually respond to the specific things Gear said rather than just blow it all off as "nothing?" You know why? Because you are weak. And you can't.

Because you won't even try to respond to the concrete examples, you lose. No one can believe you or take you seriously. Run coward, RUN!

Mochan

12-19-2006, 07:29 AM

Hey, I want Sony to succeed as much as anyone but I'm not listening to a thing this guy says (this Brit with a Japanese-type name).

thelastword

12-19-2006, 08:10 AM

Based on NOTHING??? Gear gave specific and concrete examples of misinformation in "Harako's" post that make him seem less than legit.

Why don't you actually respond to the specific things Gear said rather than just blow it all off as "nothing?" You know why? Because you are weak. And you can't.

Because you won't even try to respond to the concrete examples, you lose. No one can believe you or take you seriously. Run coward, RUN!First off, I did respond to Gear, I provided the link to where Harako made responses to the display problem on 480i games and BC in general, so of course this is nothing official, a more official rundown of PS2/PS1 emulation is soon to come in a more official setting since the emulation is pretty much done.

I do agree that there are no xbox emulators worth much on the PC, but that point alone is not enough to state that Meshi is not working on BC for the PS3 or that he thinks that xbox BC is easier done than ps BC. Hell, even on that very forum, none of the bots took that point into question, especially in the vein of reference.

Looking at the 360's PC like architecture inclusive of the software tools available to it, it should be conclusive that simulating code on the 360 PPC is much easier. With the PS2, you have a main chip with two vector units, it's not as simple simulating such code, again, since the XBOX1 and the XBOX2 architecture are much similar and less complex, it's more of a straightforward case. The fact that XBOX emulators never got off is kinda strange but not so strange come to think of it, maybe the more skilled emulators never thought that it was worth it, hell the majority of the xbox library could be played on their PC anyway why emulate it, so perhaps these guys didn't see the worth therein. Personally, I think the emulators concentrated moreso on PC emulation for the PS2 as there was more of a draw there. EPSXE is the best emulator out there and that's for PC-PS2 emulation.

So when he said that the PC had great emulators of the xbox, maybe that's not so true, but looking at the 360's PC like architecture in sync with XBOX 180's, it's not so farfetched at all, perhaps he was thinking, hell there should be a tonne of them and since the 360 is so close to a PC and the direct method that's actually involved in xbox BC for the 360.

Gamer88

12-19-2006, 09:22 AM

First off, I did respond to Gear, I provided the link to where Harako made responses to the display problem on 480i games and BC in general, so of course this is nothing official, a more official rundown of PS2/PS1 emulation is soon to come in a more official setting since the emulation is pretty much done.

I do agree that there are no xbox emulators worth much on the PC, but that point alone is not enough to state that Meshi is not working on BC for the PS3 or that he thinks that xbox BC is easier done than ps BC. Hell, even on that very forum, none of the bots took that point into question, especially in the vein of reference.

I know that point alone doesn't confirm that he isn't working for BC on the ps3, but then again, we should not have to prove that he doesn't work for sony, you should have to prove that he does.

Looking at the 360's PC like architecture inclusive of the software tools available to it, it should be conclusive that simulating code on the 360 PPC is much easier. With the PS2, you have a main chip with two vector units, it's not as simple simulating such code, again, since the XBOX1 and the XBOX2 architecture are much similar and less complex, it's more of a straightforward case. The fact that XBOX emulators never got off is kinda strange but not so strange come to think of it, maybe the more skilled emulators never thought that it was worth it, hell the majority of the xbox library could be played on their PC anyway why emulate it, so perhaps these guys didn't see the worth therein. Personally, I think the emulators concentrated moreso on PC emulation for the PS2 as there was more of a draw there. EPSXE is the best emulator out there and that's for PC-PS2 emulation.

So when he said that the PC had great emulators of the xbox, maybe that's not so true, but looking at the 360's PC like architecture in sync with XBOX 180's, it's not so farfetched at all, perhaps he was thinking, hell there should be a tonne of them and since the 360 is so close to a PC and the direct method that's actually involved in xbox BC for the 360.

Don't you think it sounds like kind of a stretch for him to think that though? I mean, he stated it as if it was an obvious fact. If he really is emulator-savvy like he claims to be, I doubt it would have just been an assumption on his part.Hell, maybe there are xbox emulators we aren't aware of.

Look, I realise that he may very well work for sony. However, I know that on the internet anyone can claim anything, and more often than not they can even get away with it. It's not like his arguement was anywhere above the logic or "in-the-know" than any tech-junkie could have composed.

Mochan

12-19-2006, 09:27 AM

I do agree that there are no xbox emulators worth much on the PC, but that point alone is not enough to state that Meshi is not working on BC for the PS3 or that he thinks that xbox BC is easier done than ps BC.

It's enough to say though that the guy can talk out of his ass and will do so to prove a point.

Hell, even on that very forum, none of the bots took that point into question, especially in the vein of reference.

This is probalby more due to XBot (and console player in general) ignorance in not knowing what emulators are available on the PC rather than them not wanting to take point to that question. It's no secret XBots play on their Xboxes, rather than on PCs.

First off, I did respond to Gear, I provided the link to where Harako made responses to the display problem on 480i games and BC in general, so of course this is nothing official,

That's not a response to Renz at all. His point was that the guy was talking out of his ass regarding XBox emulators, and that his rhetoric on making a perfect 1:1 emulator and bugs doesn't hold water.

Responding with display problem rhetoric is completely non-sequitur and does not address Renz's points at all.

The fact that XBOX emulators never got off is kinda strange but not so strange come to think of it,

PS2 emulators never did, either. ePSXe is not a PS2 emulator, it's a PS1 emulator.

Also XBox 1 and Xbox 360 architecture is not similar at all. They're probably closer than PS2 and PS3, but they're not close by a stretch. XBox 1 is basically a Celeron, Xbox 360 is a multicore PowerPC chip. There's a lot of difference there even if they both run on DirectX.

Gamer88

12-19-2006, 09:28 AM

EPSXE is the best emulator out there and that's for PC-PS2 emulation.

correct me if I am wrong, but isn't epsxe the best PC-PS emulator out there? not PS2?

unless there is a PS2 adaptation of it that im not aware of...but if there is it isn't posted on zophar's

I use ePSXe sometimes, I used it to finish xenogears when I lost my memory card (I downloaded a save off the internet to get to the point I was at)

Gamer88

12-19-2006, 09:32 AM

PS2 emulators never did, either. ePSXe is not a PS2 emulator, it's a PS1 emulator.

beat me to it

Gamer88

12-19-2006, 09:37 AM

You know, based on what we know about haroko meshi so far I think I would be more inclined to believe that thelastword works for sony. They way he argues and trys to sell off sony, seemingly denying or overlooking any vices, makes him seem like more of an actual hired propagandist then a fanboy.

but really

thelastword

12-19-2006, 11:20 AM

ePSXe is a PSX emulator and the best one that there is, sorry about the mistype guys, I was referring to PCSX2 for the PS2, which in fact, is the best PS2 emulator out there. The latest release of PCSX2 is quite impressive indeed, this bodes well for Harako et al and if you're a believer then you know that what they're going to bring forward will be mighty impressive.

Fivespot

12-19-2006, 12:10 PM

They way he argues and trys to sell off sony, seemingly denying or overlooking any vices, makes him seem like more of an actual hired propagandist then a fanboy.

If he were, they'd fire him for not making a rationale argument. Or maybe that's a part of their genius ;)

thelastword

12-19-2006, 12:44 PM

I know that point alone doesn't confirm that he isn't working for BC on the ps3, but then again, we should not have to prove that he doesn't work for sony, you should have to prove that he does. Here's the thing 88, sometimes you get some bits off forums that's unofficial, sometimes you get info in a more formal setting, I'm not saying that anyone who spews on forums should be taken in faith, but just like Scrivener some of these guys are dismissing the info just because he said one thing that sounded a bit off or that he used excessive language and of course go on to reject the majority of the info which is actually sound, now in the end it really doesn't matter, I don't think anybody is liable to believe, but there's a level of hypocrisy by those who deny the info and of course the reasons why they do. Take Scrivener fro e.g, there isn't one thing that he stated that has been proven false, he speculated as to the PSP's sales and the fanboys used that to dismiss him, where are they now, when 99.9% of what he said has been proven true. Recently I saw scans of blood in Hsword which he made mention of, the only thing left to see is whether his take on kIllzone has merit. Frankly, I'm sure Killzone will be quite a looker, hell It could look better than the original trailer, but even then, I'm sure MS fanboys will say that it could be done on the 360 etc..etc, this is the way it is though, I accept that, but it doesn't make it true in any case. Denial is a *****, but to me FACT is greater than FUD, a more ambitious title at launch is more impressive to me than a second gen title with less going on. Ticking 1080P means nothing unless I see native games at that Res on the 360. Saying a great looking game superior than anything on the 360 is possible on that machine means nothing to me until I see it done. FACT is greater than FICTION IMO, so to me show me the money or you aint getting no honey....

ilnadmy

12-19-2006, 10:29 PM

show me the money or you aint getting no honey....

Where have I heard that before....God, I know I heard it somewhe....

OH SH**!!

:blush2: