Wii hardware--2-3 times more powerful?

[Gadfly2317]

Question to the tech-heads; I know nintendo was tight lipped about what was actually inside the Wii, giving out the vague "its 2-3 times more powerful than the GC." And I've seen discussions debating whether the Wii is actually 1.1ghz or 750mhz; but very little substance about how the whole thing comes together performance-wise with its various components.

What I want to know is, is the Wii actually more powerful than the GC graphics-wise? Is it even equal-to or slightly more powerful than Xbox? I had been under the assumption that while the Wii was going to be far less graphically capbable than the Ps3 or 360, that it was still going to look like a souped up Xbox--which in conjunction with the new-gameplay and low price seemed like a great deal.

So why doesn't the Wii seem to look any different than the GC? Is it just the early titles, or lazy developers (like how Far Cry doesn't look better than the Xbox version, at least as far as I can tell from screenshots) or that stuff like Zelda was developed for the 'cube? Are there going to be Wii games that look better than Xbox games? Are there going to be games that look even as good as Strangers Wrath?

I'd love to hear one of you technically literate guys explain the Wii hardware and what it should be capapble of graphically. While I was totally cool with a less expensive system that emphasized new game-play over graphics, it is totally not cool that the system doesn't appear to have upped the graphics ante AT ALL.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

All I know is that it has a dual core IBM processor, not sure of the clock speed. Not even sure what type of GPU it has besides the fact that it's developed by ATI same people who did the GPU for the GC and the 360.

But I'm with you I'll take it further and say why don't they have games that look better than the best GC games.

[trebor]

Based on my understanding is that most of launch titles for the Wii were developed on a GC dev kit, since Nintendo took too long getting out the Wii kits. So we should be seeing a nice bump in quality for 2nd gen or 3 gen Wii games.

I think as it stands, the Wii has a 733 mhz dual-core Power PC CPU, twice the memory, and, like, three times bus speed of the GC. Don't quote me on that, though.

Although, I've also heard that despite Red Steel being overall pretty crappy, there are moments in it where it graphically blows away anything last gen systems were capable of.

[NEO-360]

Based on my understanding is that most of launch titles for the Wii were developed on a GC dev kit, since Nintendo took too long getting out the Wii kits. So we should be seeing a nice bump in quality for 2nd gen or 3 gen Wii games.

I think as it stands, the Wii has a 733 mhz dual-core Power PC CPU, twice the memory, and, like, three times bus speed of the GC. Don't quote me on that, though.

Although, I've also heard that despite Red Steel being overall pretty crappy, there are moments in it where it graphically blows away anything last gen systems were capable of.

Hmm....I wonder if the Wii will last longer than the GC considering all this?:confused:

[Mochan]

Well Gaddie, that's a tough question as we do not have the actual specs of the Wii.

Let's take a look at the specsheet:


Xbox
CPU: 733Mhz Intel Celeron w/ 128kb L2 Cache and FSB of 133mhz
GPU: NV2A 233Mhz - 2 Vertex Shaders and 4 Pixel Pipelines, Fillrate = 932Mpixels/s, 115M Vertices/s
RAM: 64MB Shared Memory w/ 6.4GB/s bandwidth

Gamecube
CPU: 485Mhz PPC "Gecko" w/ 256kb L2 Cache and 162Mhz bus
GPU: 162Mhz Flipper w/ 4 pixel pipes, 648Mpixels/s Fillrate, 12MPolys/s
RAM: 24MB system RAM + 16MB extra RAM & 2MB frame buffer and 1MB texture RAM


Now in contrast what do we know about the Wii? Nothing but rumors, they are like:
CPU : 729Mhz Broadway Chip
GPU: 243Mhz Hollywood Chip

And these are just alleged rumors. Basically we can't say until we know more, as without key info like the Fillrate and Poly Rate as well as shader model information, we have no idea what these chips can do. But looking at those figures, it seems the Wii doesn't have much more muscle than the xBox, if even that.... so no surprise its graphics are comparable to the XBox. It doesn't help that its resolution caps out at 480p -- though with such purported stats I doubt the pixel fillrate is capable of doing more.

We'd need to find out how much RAM the system has, bus speed between the different components (in this case basically just the CPU and GPU and hwo the RAM works between them), and the pixel and vertex pipes details as well as the shader model information and other instructions for the GPU, so we know what kind of effects the GPU can pull off. Once we have that I can make guesses as to what the GPU can do.

[Glockstar]

Question to the tech-heads; I know nintendo was tight lipped about what was actually inside the Wii, giving out the vague "its 2-3 times more powerful than the GC." And I've seen discussions debating whether the Wii is actually 1.1ghz or 750mhz; but very little substance about how the whole thing comes together performance-wise with its various components.

What I want to know is, is the Wii actually more powerful than the GC graphics-wise? Is it even equal-to or slightly more powerful than Xbox? I had been under the assumption that while the Wii was going to be far less graphically capbable than the Ps3 or 360, that it was still going to look like a souped up Xbox--which in conjunction with the new-gameplay and low price seemed like a great deal.

So why doesn't the Wii seem to look any different than the GC? Is it just the early titles, or lazy developers (like how Far Cry doesn't look better than the Xbox version, at least as far as I can tell from screenshots) or that stuff like Zelda was developed for the 'cube? Are there going to be Wii games that look better than Xbox games? Are there going to be games that look even as good as Strangers Wrath?

I'd love to hear one of you technically literate guys explain the Wii hardware and what it should be capapble of graphically. While I was totally cool with a less expensive system that emphasized new game-play over graphics, it is totally not cool that the system doesn't appear to have upped the graphics ante AT ALL.

Gadfly! You cease and desist these needless inquiries right now! It's not about what's under the hood... judge the system on the games and the games alone!

[Gadfly2317]

Gadfly! You cease and desist these needless inquiries right now! It's not about what's under the hood... judge the system on the games and the games alone!

On the game and the game alone. Feeling a bit better having gotten my component cable and popped the new Zelda in for the first time. I never had a component cable for the GC (and most titles didn't support progressive scan anyway) so I don't know if that's the difference, but Twilight Princess is absolutely stunning to look at; the textures aren't comparable to the other systems, but the overall effect, the detail, the utter immensity of the world. . .I've still got a lot of reservations over the direction the Wii may or may not take, but for the moment anyway, Zelda has helped spark the inner fanboy.

If the Gamecube was capable of this. . . then the system never got the developer attention it deserved.

[Mochan]

The resolution may have something to do with it; Component cable lets you play at 480p, right? Upping the resolution is a big factor in screen quality, especially from the old crapola TV res. The textures won't improve but the clarity makes eyes turn in itself.

Remember FF7 on your PS1? I saw the game for the PC and playing it at 1024x768 with AA made it look almost like a totally new game.

[Gadfly2317]

The resolution may have something to do with it; Component cable lets you play at 480p, right? Upping the resolution is a big factor in screen quality, especially from the old crapola TV res. The textures won't improve but the clarity makes eyes turn in itself.

Remember FF7 on your PS1? I saw the game for the PC and playing it at 1024x768 with AA made it look almost like a totally new game.

I haven't looked at the game in 480i yet, but the resolution has to be a big part of why it looks better than anything I played on the 'cube. I have component cables for my Ps2 and games that support progressive scan really do look night-and-day compared to playing them in 480i (especially Okami and God of War.)

But still, the other about factor making Twilight Princess so stunning isn't the tech, its the scale of the world and the incredible amount of detail. It's like, what the hell, did they have a team of 1000 people working on this thing for 3 years? I don't know if I've encountered a game quite like this. Also, it really is technically impressive, drenched in all kinds of cool looking trippy effects. And best thing of all is that despite retaining the certain nostalgic aspects of Zelda, it is no rehash it all; it is far beyond anything I expected from a Zelda game.

The other thing I'm glad to find out. . . after the first week of Wii playing nothing but Rayman and Wii sports, I was definitely feeling iffy about the controller; Zelda has removed any concern I was feeling about the Wii controller's ability to improve a traditional genre.

I'm hoping the version of Far Cry that comes out next week is done well and is at least up to the standards of the Xbox version because I really want to try out the Wii on a FPS, and CoD3 doesn't really appeal to me.

[Cuddly Knife]

I want Exite Truck still.

And Gad, don't you remember RE4 for the Cube? It was a technical marvel for last gen, and especially when comparing it to the PS2 version which is ug-O!

Plus, Zelda is still coming out on the Cube, in almost the same form as the Wii version minus the Wand. In fact, I remember reading about how the devs for Zelda said that the graphics weren't at all changed from the Cube version.

[Glockstar]

...don't you remember RE4 for the Cube? It was a technical marvel for last gen, and especially when comparing it to the PS2 version which is ug-O!

BS!!! The PS2 version looked great. Even in comparison. If I was to just stare at the game and not play it, I would prefer the GC version - most everything looked a little clearer, a little sharper, and the character models, especially, had great depth - they appeared to have this... extra dimension to them - but the PS2 version had a lot more, and a lot better content.

[Cuddly Knife]

But more slowdown, and oh-so-longer load times. Bleh.

And they coul've added the ADA content to the Cube, if it was there to add when they made the game originally.

[theWacoKid]

Nintendo hasn't confirmed but this article is pretty much defines what the wii is, spec wise.


EXCLUSIVE: Wii Know A lot You Don’t- Nintendo Wii Specs Fully Uncovered!!! *Updated*

So far Nintendo have done a very credible job in keeping information regarding the Wii to a minimum. Well all that has just changed! An anonymous Wii developer has sent to us slurry of information regarding Nintendo’s next-gen console, all that’s left now is a confirmed release date and price to complete the puzzle. Believe us when we say, this article is a MUST READ, you won’t be disappointed. Prepare to get educated… *Update* - The dev mailed us and said he was shocked to see all these cries of 'fake', so he provided some more info to show he's not bluffing...



Wii Know A Lot You Don’t... but will – Enjoy!

Anyway, we've done enough talking thus far, prepare your eyes for a textual feast on the joys to behold with the Wii.

The Wii Hardware

- Nintendo Wii’s ‘Broadway’ CPU operates at 729MHZ with a maximum bandwith of 1.9gbyte/sec.
- Nintendo Wii’s ‘HollyWood’ GPU is clocked at 243MHZ, the internal memory of it includes 3mb of embedded graphics memory and 24megabytes of High Speed main memory.
- 64megabytes of GDDR3 (MEM2) as the external main memory. Just like the internal memory, it can be accessed from the CPU and GPU with a maximum bandwidth of 4gbytes/sec and can also store programs in the MEM2.
- The GPU of the Wii is identical to the GC’s but it is on average 1.5X faster.

Wii's Optical Disc Drive

- Opitcal Disc Drive (ODD) supports single and dual layer Wii disks, discs eject with software or button and the maximum read speed is the equivalent of DVDx6.
- Two main disc types supported the single sided 12cm single sided 4.7gb and the double sided 8.51 GB. Nintendo GC discs also supported. Some of the capacity of the discs are used by the system and games can not use full disc space.
- Inserting a disc will start the Wii console, even if it was already in an off state. Pressing the eject button will change the console to an on state to take out the disc also.

General Overview

- An optional wired LAN adapter that connects to a USB port is in the pipeline for users who do not possess a wireless LAN set-up currently.
- Internal non-removable 512MB flash memory used to storage game save data and downloadable content thus eliminating the need for a memory card.
- Both Wii discs and Gamecube discs can be played via an intelligent mode swap. When running in GC mode, the Wii’s CPU and GPU will lower to the respective speeds of the GC and some of the MEM2 functions as ARAM.
- Software development environment is an upgrade to the ‘Dolphin SDK’ used with the GC; the same libraries are used so developers can get up to scratch easily as well as the possibility of ports being easier.
- The following interfaces are included with the Wii; SD card slot, Wireless controller, two USB 2.0 ports, wireless LAN, 4x GC controller ports, 2x GC memory card slots and an AV multi output jack (only an analog jack).
- Supports Wii disks (one sided 12cm) and GC discs (one sided 8cm) and console auto switches depends on what disk is inserted
- More than just the Nunchaku is planned as an extension. GC peripherals such as DK bongos can be used in both Wii and GC modes.
- Three power status, on, off and unplugged. To prevent mistaken turn offs, the power button must be held for about a second.

The Wii Control System

- The Wii controller features; Direct Pointing Device, Three axis accelerometer, Wii power button (remotely turn console on/off), buttons, wireless connectivity, indicator LED’s, rumble, battery powered (two AA alkaline batteries) and ability to connect extension unit.
- The Wii controller supports three types of operations; by itself, with a nunchuk extension or with a classic controller. Classic controllers will ship to developers during August 2006.
- The SYNCHRO button on the Wii controller exchanges wireless ID numbers when pressed at the same time as SYNCRHO on the Wii console. Wireless communications are only possible with consoles which have been authenticated.
- The rumble motor can be turned on and off and the intensity can be changed.
- The Wii remote has a pointer for fine movements as well as a motion sensor +/- 3.4G suitable for larger body movements, the nunchuk attachment has a sensor of +/- 2G
- The sensor bar must be placed above or below a TV set, the pointer measures coordinates between the ends of the bar which are about 20cm apart.
- The Wii remote has four status, disconnected, communicating, establishing connection and pairing wait status.
- The pointer can measure co-ordinates within bounds of rectangle centered upon the sensor bar, thus it can also measure points beyond the screen. It also responds to strong light sources, windows, fluorescent lamps, fireplaces, mirrors etc.
- Due to players hands shaking while holding the controller, a ring buffer allows a precise direction to be created to hold and average accelerator samples.

Thanks 'TheGuy' for the info!

Big shoutout must go out to the 'TheGuy' for this info!

*UPDATE* The dev mailed us and said he was shocked to see all these cries of 'fake', so he provided some more info to show he's not bluffing...

Broadway CPU

Broadway is Wii's CPU. Broadway functionality and specifications are as follows.

• Operating speed: 729 MHz
• Bus to main memory: 243 MHz, 64 bits (maximum bandwidth: 1.9 gigabytes/sec)
• 32-kilobyte 8-way set-associative L1 instruction cache
• 32-kilobyte 8-way set-associative L1 data cache (can set up 16-kilobyte data scratch pad)
• Superscalar microprocessor with six execution units (floating-point unit, branching unit, system regis
ter unit, load/store unit, two integer units)
• DMA unit (15-entry DMA request queue) used by 16-kilobyte data scratch pad
• Write-gather buffer for writing graphics command lists to the graphics chip
• Onboard 256-kilobyte 2-way set-associative L2 integrated cache
• Two, 32-bit integer units (IU)
• One floating point unit (FPU) (supports single precision (32-bit) and double precision (64-bit))
• The FPU supports paired single floating point (FP/PS)
• The FPU supports paired single multiply add (ps_madd). Most FP/PS instructions can be issued in
each cycle and completed in three cycles.
• Fixed-point to floating-point conversion can be performed at the same time as FPU register load and
store, with no loss in performance.
• The branch unit supports static branch prediction and dynamic branch prediction.
• When an instruction is stalled on data, the next instruction can be issued and executed. All instructions
maintain program logic and will complete in the correct program order.
• Supports three L2 cache fetch modes: 32-Byte, 64-Byte, and 128-Byte.
• Supports these bus pipeline depth levels: level 2, level 3, and level 4.
Reference Information: Broadway is upward compatible with Nintendo GameCube’s CPU (Gekko).

Hollywood GPU

Hollywood is a system LSI composed of a GPU and internal main memory (MEM1). Hollywood is clocked at 243 MHz. Its internal memory consists of 3 megabytes of embedded graphics memory and 24 megabytes of high speed main memory.

Hollywood includes the following.
• Graphics processing unit (with 3 megabytes of eDRAM)
• Audio DSP
• I/O Bridge
• 24 megabytes of internal main memory
• Internal main memory operates at 486 MHz.
Maximum bandwidth between Hollywood and internal main memory: 3.9 gigabytes per second
• Possible to locate a program here
Reference Information: Hollywood is similar to Nintendo GameCube’s Flipper and Splash components.

External Main Memory (MEM2)

Wii uses 64 megabytes of GDDR3 (MEM2) as external main memory. Like internal main memory, MEM2 can be accessed directly from Broadway and the GPU at high speed and has a peak bandwidth of 4 gigabytes/sec. Programs can also be placed in MEM2.

Reference Information: Nintendo GameCube ARAM is used as auxiliary memory for the DSP. The CPU and GPU did not have direct access to it.

I've read nothing to contradict these figures. The wii appears to have been designed wih b/c as a priority. The cpu and gpu are essentially supersets of the gc chipsets. 2 to 3 times more powerful as the gc? I think not. For what nintendo is doing, who cares?

[Mochan]

But still, the other about factor making Twilight Princess so stunning isn't the tech, its the scale of the world and the incredible amount of detail. It's like, what the hell, did they have a team of 1000 people working on this thing for 3 years?

Gaddie, you need to play either Morrowind, Oblivion, or the Gothic series. BADLY. And wait til Stalker comes out.

Better hope Farcry comes out like the PC version. The XBox version allegedly had smallified environments (wouldn't know, can't compare). When you play the PC version and see the BREADTH of each level, it'll make your jaw drop.

BS!!! The PS2 version looked great. Even in comparison. If I was to just stare at the game and not play it, I would prefer the GC version - most everything looked a little clearer, a little sharper, and the character models, especially, had great depth - they appeared to have this... extra dimension to them - but the PS2 version had a lot more, and a lot better content.

RE4 looked like a below average game to me. But that's comparing it to PC games at the time. I guess it was okay for a GC title.


Ok going by conjecture, it seems like the GC's GPU is about the same specs as a GF3 Ti500, with a little extra horsepower coming from its EDRAM. The Ti500 btw is what the Xbox's GPU was based on. Now this is *very* disappointing from a techie perspective considering the PC had a card like this some 7 years ago.

What does this mean? Well let's assume the GPU has some 4-6 pixel shader units, so more or less that means we can expect something like a 972M to 1.458B pixels per second, which is actually enough to run non-pixel-shaded games at about 720p resolution and still get 60fps. Slowdown occurs when you do per-pixel effects (which is what every game on the 360 is doing, and every 3D game today on the PC). I myself still have to disable/tone down a lot of pixel shading effects to run my games properly -- Call of Juarez for instance I tone down the material quality shader effects to "very low" so as to get 60fps in many indoor areas. The problem is I have no idea what kind of pixel-shading performance the Wii's GPU has.

[Gadfly2317]

Gaddie, you need to play either Morrowind, Oblivion, or the Gothic series. BADLY. And wait til Stalker comes out.

Better hope Farcry comes out like the PC version. The XBox version allegedly had smallified environments (wouldn't know, can't compare). When you play the PC version and see the BREADTH of each level, it'll make your jaw drop.


I know Morrowind was huge, but it seemed somehow flat and lifeless. . .I don't know that you can really compare a western RPG like that with an action-adventure game.

As far as my Far Cry hopes. . .I don't expect the Wii to pull of PC level of graphics. I'd just like to see it pulled off as well as possible graphically, but really do a good job integrating the Wii control. I'd hate to see another 60% rated Ubisoft Wii attempt.

[NEO-360]

Gadfly! You cease and desist these needless inquiries right now! It's not about what's under the hood... judge the system on the games and the games alone!

Amen to that statement. Kudos for Glockstar!!!:thumbsup:

[Gadfly2317]

Gaddie, you need to play either Morrowind, Oblivion, or the Gothic series. BADLY. And wait til Stalker comes out.

I can better explain what I mean about the new Zelda's impressive immensity and why Morrowind didn't have the same sort of mind blowing effect on me. Morrowind was huge and open and went on and on and on. It was a staggering sense of scale and size. But from a design point of view, it had a lot of object and texture repetition, bland animation. . .and really, just a lot of repetition in general, like how I could make this a staggeringly immense post by cutting and pasting this paragraph repeatedly.

I can better explain what I mean about the new Zelda's impressive immensity and why Morrowind didn't have the same sort of mind blowing effect on me. Morrowind was huge and open and went on and on and on. It was a staggering sense of scale and size. But from a design point of view, it had a lot of object and texture repetition, bland animation. . .and really, just a lot of repetition in general, like how I could make this a staggeringly immense post by cutting and pasting this paragraph repeatedly.

Everywhere I've been in Twilight Princess so far, its crammed full of individual, unique detail, creatures and specific little touches. . .it doesn't feel like an object cut/paste universe, experiencing the Hyrule of Twilight Princess, its like every single pixel was given a great amount of attention and thought.

Also, being primarily a console gamer, I'd be more inclined to compare it to other action/adventure games I've played in recent years like Okami, God of War, Shadow of the Collosus, Windwaker and Fable. Artistically, Okami was the most unique, but as a game it was overly simplistic, as was Fable, and in the case of Fable, it was a very constrained world--like being on rails. And SoTC, as much as it started out promising, turned into a very dull and repetitious affair, and though the world was somewhat beautiful to look at initially, its utterly empty and devoid of life and interaction, except for the Collosi. And Windwaker, it was big and open, but it was a damned ocean, and we all know how tedious and repetitive that got to look at.

Twilight Princess really is one VAST, detail-drenched glorious game. While it doesn't lessen my appreciation for the recent and amazing Okami, there is a level of variety, challenge, drama and humor that is a whole new level as far as I'm concerned, and I doubt playing Oblivion will change that. . . after all, it is you who said Oblivion is in many ways a lesser Morrowind, and that in anycase, even you found the games to be repetitive. Sure, there's a lot to do with all those guild missions, but even though its a less linear game than Zelda, I found it somewhat repetitive and aimless, and it definitely lacks the compelling dramatic tension of Twilight Princess.

These are all first rate games we're comparing here, but unless someone just has a personal loathing for the Zelda universe, Twilight Princess is something all gamers should experience--specifically the Wii version. It's one of the all time greats.

[Mochan]

I know Morrowind was huge, but it seemed somehow flat and lifeless. . .I don't know that you can really compare a western RPG like that with an action-adventure game.


Seemed somehow? Oh it was definitely flat and lifeless... which has always been my critique of the Elder Scrolls games. Gothic on the other hand was always a fit and fat gaming world, if you have a halfway decent PC try fishing for Gothic 1 if you don't mind a little PC gaming. Graphcis are a little meh but are still serviceable especially if you're not on the next gen boat yet, combat is bleh (ok really bad) but the actual world built is awesome, and never feels flat and lifeless like Tamriel.

The way you explained Zelda's individuality, that is pretty much the difference between Gothic and Elder Scrolls. Even Oblivion still reeked of this cut and paste thing somewhat, especially with every NPC sharing the same pool of "standard lines" to certain questions. Gothic has none of that nonsense and feels far more unique and fleshed out than Morrowind (or Oblivion) ever did... that's why I always say Gothic is the better game in terms of the creation of the game world.

Fable was definitely a game on rails. You go out into the wilderness but there is only one path through it... totally killed the immersion. I know what you mean about Colossus. The world was really just one big sandbox except for the boss fights. But believe you me I travelled a lot of that land, I even got on top of the bridge and ran all the way to the valley entrance!

after all, it is you who said Oblivion is in many ways a lesser Morrowind, and that in anycase, even you found the games to be repetitive.

Oh yeah those games were definitely repetitive, it's good that you explained your reasons for what set Zelda apart and made it feel expansive; if I had known that I wouldn't have recommended The Elder Scrolls.


As far as my Far Cry hopes. . .I don't expect the Wii to pull of PC level of graphics.

We're not talking PC level graphics. Just PC level expansiveness. Though I'm not too confident the Wii can pull it off, either. Xbox had to cut its levels down due to lack of memory.

[Glockstar]

I can better explain what I mean about the new Zelda's impressive immensity and why Morrowind didn't have the same sort of mind blowing effect on me. Morrowind was huge and open and went on and on and on. It was a staggering sense of scale and size. But from a design point of view, it had a lot of object and texture repetition, bland animation. . .and really, just a lot of repetition in general, like how I could make this a staggeringly immense post by cutting and pasting this paragraph repeatedly.

I can better explain what I mean about the new Zelda's impressive immensity and why Morrowind didn't have the same sort of mind blowing effect on me. Morrowind was huge and open and went on and on and on. It was a staggering sense of scale and size. But from a design point of view, it had a lot of object and texture repetition, bland animation. . .and really, just a lot of repetition in general, like how I could make this a staggeringly immense post by cutting and pasting this paragraph repeatedly.

Everywhere I've been in Twilight Princess so far, its crammed full of individual, unique detail, creatures and specific little touches. . .it doesn't feel like an object cut/paste universe, experiencing the Hyrule of Twilight Princess, its like every single pixel was given a great amount of attention and thought.

Also, being primarily a console gamer, I'd be more inclined to compare it to other action/adventure games I've played in recent years like Okami, God of War, Shadow of the Collosus, Windwaker and Fable. Artistically, Okami was the most unique, but as a game it was overly simplistic, as was Fable, and in the case of Fable, it was a very constrained world--like being on rails. And SoTC, as much as it started out promising, turned into a very dull and repetitious affair, and though the world was somewhat beautiful to look at initially, its utterly empty and devoid of life and interaction, except for the Collosi. And Windwaker, it was big and open, but it was a damned ocean, and we all know how tedious and repetitive that got to look at.

Twilight Princess really is one VAST, detail-drenched glorious game. While it doesn't lessen my appreciation for the recent and amazing Okami, there is a level of variety, challenge, drama and humor that is a whole new level as far as I'm concerned, and I doubt playing Oblivion will change that. . . after all, it is you who said Oblivion is in many ways a lesser Morrowind, and that in anycase, even you found the games to be repetitive. Sure, there's a lot to do with all those guild missions, but even though its a less linear game than Zelda, I found it somewhat repetitive and aimless, and it definitely lacks the compelling dramatic tension of Twilight Princess.

These are all first rate games we're comparing here, but unless someone just has a personal loathing for the Zelda universe, Twilight Princess is something all gamers should experience--specifically the Wii version. It's one of the all time greats.

And you reached these conclusions after what landmark? After four hours of play? Six hours? Eight?!

[Mochan]

You could play Gothic 3 for 4 hours and know it was expansive.
You could play Oblivion for 4 hours and see the tell-tale marks of TES Copy and Paste syndrome. Didn't help that there were only like 4 voices used for ALL the NPCs in the entire game. :rolls eyes: (though granted Gothic 3 has a similar problem)