HDTVs, light-guns, and Nintendo's "wand-troller"

[Glockstar]

I am probably more bummed than any Nintendo fan here that they aren't supporting hi-def since I just bought a nice hi-def widescreen set last year...

Gadfly made this comment in another thread... and it immediately struck me and started me wondering - but I didn't want to interrupt that threads topic by going off subject - so I'm making a new thread and posting my comments and questions here:

I don't know if any of you know this, but light-guns do not work with HDTV's. (I recently got an HDTV myself, and was extremely saddened when I found out, firsthand, that I could no longer use the lightgun when playing Time Crisis 3. :( )

Does anybody know anything about the technology of Nintendo's "wand-troller"? I mean, Nintendo isn't doing the HD-thing at all, but does anybody know if they are still taking steps to make sure their equipment is compatible? In other words, are you guys sure that the Revs wand-troller will work with HDTVs? They're not totally overlooking HDTVs (too), are they?

[Gadfly2317]

I believe a sensor is placed near the tv that senses the 3-d spatial movements of the controller. . . I don't think it is anything like the technology in light guns.

Also that sucks to hear light gun games don't work on HDTV's.

[Glockstar]

You're right.

Sorry, I found my answers...

Q: What exactly is so special about the Revolution controller?

A: The Revolution controller may look like a stylish television remote, but there's a lot more to the device than its glossy exterior suggests. The remote-like peripheral, which has been called the "free-hand style controller" and "pointer" by Nintendo, interacts with a sensor bar placed above, below, or near televisions. The bar contains two sensors that communicate with the controller using Bluetooth technology. The marriage transforms the pointer into a virtual wand of sorts, enabling users to move objects and characters in games simply by moving the peripheral. The sensors read the pointer's every move in real-time space. They can detect up, down, left and right motion, and also translate forward and backward depth. The controller's sensors also recognize twisting, rotating and tilting movements. In short, any motion made by arms and wrists can be translated to Revolution games.


Q: Won't potential light gun add-ons fail to work correctly with Revolution owners who use high-definition televisions?

A: No. Revolution's sensory technology does not interface with TV scan lines, as is the standard with traditional light guns. Because of that, light gun games are entirely possible with Revolution regardless of television type.


Q: Why are there no pictures of the sensor bar?

A: It's still very much in prototype stage and as a result the final design has not yet been decided.


Q: Has Nintendo revealed all the features of the Revolution controller?

A: No, we don't believe so. Certain secondary features still remain hidden. Nintendo itself may be defining these features even as it tests and reworks the controller.

http://cube.ign.com/articles/651/651559p1.html

[trebor]

What's really cool is that the Wand-troller should be able to be utilized if you own a HDTV projector and pull-down screen.

[joquito]

They make light guns to work with HDTVs. The old light guns would only work with Interlaced images, while many HDTVs, would produce a progressive image and the gun wouldn't work. Websites like Lik-Sang, or Ebay have HDTV compatible light-guns for cheap dough now-.

[Glockstar]

LOL Yeah, made by who?! I don't truss 'em.

No, seriously, I did some research on this on when I found out that my light-gun wouldn't work with my DLP TV. (I didn't think it would, to tell you the truth.) I had to find out if mine was a special case, or if this was a worldwide phenomena.

Days later, (who else but) IGN provided the best answer. And it was in this review...
http://gear.ign.com/articles/689/689009p1.html


LCD TopGun Review
We got our hands on one of the few HDTV compatible lightguns around

by Gerry Block
February 15, 2006 - Few things in life are quite as satisfying as mowing down hordes of evil-doers or innocent bystanders with a hail of righteous gunfire in a consequence-free environment. Sadly, such real-life fun is afforded only to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (they are in charge of everything cool). The rest of us, or perhaps just those that fail background checks, must turn to videogames to live out such glorious visions of carnage.

There's nothing wrong with turning to videogames to do something you can't do in real life. I mean, plenty of peeps do all of their killing, and dating, exclusively in the virtual world. What is a problem is when your constitutional right to carry your lightgun of choice is snatched away by big TV manufacturers. Rise up! Revolution!

All joking aside, in case you haven't heard, the move to 100Hz TVs (any modern flat-screen CRT, and all HDTV technologies [LCD, DLP, plasma, projection, SXRD, SED]) killed lightguns as we know them. From the NES Zapper to Namco's very nice GunCon2, old-school light guns simply won't work with new technology. For quite a while now, if you've been fortunate enough to pick up a hot new TV, your lightgun fun was at an end. Happily, a couple of manufacturers have been working hard on a solution, and the first of a new generation of HDTV compatible lightguns are on the market.

Our buddies at Lik-Sang.com let us know that the LCD TopGun has been selling like hotcakes and shipped us one to test. Since the TopGun is compatible with the Xbox, PS2, and PC (including MAME) we were pretty excited to return to some of our favorite shooting series like House of the Dead and Time Crisis.

When our unit arrived we were immediately impressed with what an accurate reproduction of a Beretta 92F the TopGun is. It's really bloody cool looking. In an age when any toy gun in America has to look like it was made by Fisher-Price with all kinds of stupid appendages painted in some absurd color like neon purple or orange, it's quite a pleasant surprise to hold a toy gun that doesn't make you feel two years old. The slide bears the official, through probably not licensed, Beretta trademarks and has a couple of spots of orange paint for the safety switches, while the rest of the gun is just as detailed and accurate. Obviously, you would not want to do anything dumb like walk down the street with the TopGun sticking out of your pants, as it could legitimately be mistaken for the real thing and get you shot, which would only make the rest of us look stupid too.

http://gearmedia.ign.com/gear/image/article/689/689009/lcd-top-gun-20060215044923395.jpg

Coolness doesn't end with the looks either. A tactical looking laser pointer is mounted in front of the trigger guard, and is used for a variety of things, but we'll go into detail later. The TopGun's slide also kicks back with each shot, which is a particularly cool feature that we've always been sad wasn't incorporated in the GunCon. It's not that hard a kick (less than a .22 caliber pistol if you know what that feels like) but it makes a nice racket and can disrupt your aim a little if added realism is your thing. You can also turn it off.

The LCD TopGun overcomes the 100Hz problem though the use of two plastic bars that are mounted on the left and right sides any type of TV. Arrays of infrared LEDs on the bars communicate with the wired TopGun itself. The system is recommended for screens between 14 and 60 inches, though the gun has been tested on 100''+ projectors, in which case it becomes necessary to mount the infrared bars inside the picture area.

In our primary application, I used black electrical tape (comes off cleaner than normal scotch-tape) to affix the bars on either side of a 34" Sony HD-CRT. Because of its universal nature, the LCD TopGun must be calibrated every time it is set up or one of the bars is moved. The calibration process is relatively simple and makes use of the TopGun's laser pointer to signal when steps have been completed. We discovered, however, that the TopGun has a real sweet-spot issue with regard to how far one must stand away from the TV for accurate calibration and later use. The larger the screen, the farther one must stand away. The manual recommends standing 2 meters away from a 29 inch screen, and leaves it up to you as to where to go from there. It took us a little while to really dial in our configuration, but once we had it set we were impressed with the TopGun's accuracy, and had no problems hitting felons hiding at the edges of the screen. Users with larger TV's might want to invest in extension cords (USB for PS2 and PC, Xbox for Xbox), as the TopGun's built in wire is only about 8.5 feet long.

In use, the LCD TopGun was a lot of fun. The gun is comfortable to hold and surprisingly light-weight. Button layout is good, and we especially liked the C button on the gun's handle, as it was perfect for reloading in House of the Dead III or ducking in Time Crisis. The recoil feature is fun and is certainly more immersive than vibration feedback. The laser pointer is also a cool addition that is used in both the calibration process and in normal gameplay. The addition of the laser makes a lot of games much easier and can be a good way to help a novice get into the genre. There were times, however, when the laser reflected off of the CRT screen and directly into the player's eyes, which didn't feel good and likely isn't healthy. We turned the laser off since it's pretty much cheating anyway.

We had a few other problems with the LCD TopGun as well. Though we had no problem with the Xbox, at times, PS2 games (Time Crisis II and III, Dino Stalker) would not recognize that there was a gun plugged in at all, and required some resetting to make work. The Time Crisis III calibration mode was also a hassle to complete, as for some reason it often took a good 3 minutes of shooting the center of the screen before the game would move to the next step.

http://gearmedia.ign.com/gear/image/article/689/689009/lcd-top-gun-20060215044902801.jpg

An even bigger problem in Time Crisis III was the fact that there was some sort of sync issue between the gun and the game. Crisis Zone is based upon machine guns in full auto, while the TopGun naturally shoots single shots. We switched the gun to full auto mode and blazed away. Strangely, though keeping the TopGun's trigger held down emptied the 40 round clip without a pause, the game only seemed to register hits about 25% of the time, spaced apart about equally to the TopGun's recoil action. Setting the gun to single-shot action made every bullet connect, but we couldn't pull the trigger fast enough to work with the machinegun mechanic that the game is based upon. We didn't manage to solve the mystery, which left the game somewhat unplayable.

Single shot games like House of the Dead III and Time Crisis II were fine, though we also discovered that after a solid half hour of blasting, the recoil slide is prone to getting a little stuck and not completing its motion. When this happens the gun shoots at a slower pace. Pulling the slide back manually made it work perfectly once again. At first we figured we'd be able to burn the recoil mechanic out within a few days, but after the better part of a week it's still going strong. It is true that small motors and solenoids don't last forever, so it may be a problem down the road. We'll update if ours breaks.

Conclusion
The LCD TopGun isn't perfect, and if it was in a crowded market its review score would be lower. Right now, however, there are very few options for HDTV lightgun gaming. Though the Time Crisis III problem was disappointing, the TopGun performed quite well in all other applications, especially House of the Dead III. It's a rather good looking accessory that will get attention sitting around with your games, and the recoil feedback is a lot of fun. It's also pretty rather cheap: $34.95 from Lik-Sang.com.

Even without those specific problems with my game, I would wait. Like I said, I don't truss it. I'm sure "they" will continue to work on "it" though.

[shogun]

Does anyone still play light-gun games anymore?

It seems like each console gets perhaps 1 or 2 of them at most, at which point it's on to a new system and buying another light gun. I haven't been tempted by one of the things since Elemental Gearbolt and HOTD.

[Gadfly2317]

Even without those specific problems with my game, I would wait. Like I said, I don't truss it. I'm sure "they" will continue to work on "it" though.

I think "they" Nintendo have solved "it" with the technology in their new controller. They or a licensed third party could release a gun peripheral with the spatial sensory technology. The sad irony is that even though any Rev gun games would work on an HDTV, they wouldn't be in HD :(

]Does anyone still play light-gun games anymore?
Aside from Duck Hunt a few months ago, not in a long time. I used to enjoy them and would like to see the split controller of the Revolution used to create a Burnout style racing game where you drive a car and shoot at enemies with a gun at the same time. Wouldn't it be great to race while blasting away at some guy in a helicopter throwing kegs of beer at you?

[Glockstar]

Does anyone still play light-gun games anymore?

It seems like each console gets perhaps 1 or 2 of them at most, at which point it's on to a new system and buying another light gun. I haven't been tempted by one of the things since Elemental Gearbolt and HOTD.

The Xbox got 1 or 2. The PS2 got a bunch. Did the GameCube get any?

I think one of the things with lightguns is that the games are good for quick fixes and short gaming sessions, but they require a special set-up that is contrary to that. There's absolutely nothing hard about unplugging your regular controller and setting up a lightgun but every gamer still asks themself, 'is it worth it'?

Personally, I think this Revolution and this wand-troller are a big mistake. To me it's just a gimmick. Just an alternate method of control. One that will take some getting used to, but at the same time one that should be a lot simpler. But at the same time it streamlines certain areas, it also dumbs down others. Yes it loses a lot of the complexity of today's standard controllers, but it also loses a lot of their complexity - if you know what I mean. That's not going to be good for a lot of games. (A lot of games!) And so that's not going to be good for a lot gamers. To me, it would be like Sony making the PS3 revolve around it's Eyetoy; or Microsoft making the 360 revolve around microphones and dancepads. They just wouldn't do it! Those games that utilize those alternate contol methods have their place and times, but to make every game revolve around those types of controls would be incredibly stupid - because it would be incredibly limited in sight. You just don't do it! So for the longest time I just could not understand why Nintendo was going this route - doing this force-feeding thing - with this gimmick controller - instead of just offering it up as a peripheral...? But maybe I can see why now: maybe it's because they know that unless the controller is already plugged into the system - or unless the controller is good for controlling other (types of) games - the gamer won't use it.(?)

But one other thing about lightguns and their style of quick-fix gameplay... lightguns are tiring. I'm sure the gameplay is broken up into quick short segments with frequent and brief pauses inbetween partially due to loading, but it's also to give the gamer a break. Watch anybody playing a lightgun game - when they get a second, they will let their arms fall and take a breather. Something to think about with this wand-troller...



I think "they" Nintendo have solved "it" with the technology in their new controller. They or a licensed third party could release a gun peripheral with the spatial sensory technology.

Interesting. But the way I understand the wand-troller, Nintendo - like the makers of the TopGun - solved "it" by having us set-up/affix extra hardware on our TVs.

[trebor]

Personally, I think this Revolution and this wand-troller are a big mistake. To me it's just a gimmick.

Shocker. :rolleyes:


Just an alternate method of control. One that will take some getting used to, but at the same time one that should be a lot simpler. But at the same time it streamlines certain areas, it also dumbs down others. Yes it loses a lot of the complexity of today's standard controllers, but it also loses a lot of their complexity - if you know what I mean.

Actually, I don't know what you mean, because you're not making any sense. If anything, the Wand-troller will allow for more complex games, but with more intuitive controls.

For those with a lack of imagination, consider a swordfighting game - most standard controls have a few specific moves you can do, depending on what combination of analog stick and buttons you press, but with the wandtroller YOU control exactly where you strike.

Any of you playing Oblivion right now should be able to grasp this - what if that first person perspective sword was really an extension of what you could do in real space. Jabs, thrusts, wide swings, short swings, overhead swings - I would think this would add a whole other layer of realism to what you're playing.


That's not going to be good for a lot of games. (A lot of games!) And so that's not going to be good for a lot gamers.

I don't understand why some of you seem to deliberately be ignoring the fact that not only will you be able to use the Wand-troller, but the Rev can use the standard Gamecube gamepads - as in, you will be able to unplug your Wavebird from your GC and plug it in your Rev and use it.

Plus, Nintendo has been saying from the start that they will have a standard gamepad "shell" that will basically replicate a "standard" gamepad.

So get off it already. The Rev will have far more control options than the PS3 and 360 combined, simply because each of those two are limited to one control option. Period.