Mark Rein, 'PS3 physics beast; murders, rapes, pillages 360.'

[slade]

http://www.shacknews.com/extras/200...06_markrein_2.x

Shack: What are your thoughts on AGEIA's PPU hardware? Any thoughts about how that's going to take off?

Mark Rein: One thing AGEIA's done that's really smart is that--well, if you've seen our PS3 demo, and this is really version 1, really not a finished performance at all, but we've got some really great cool physics things going on PS3. They've done a really good job of optimizing their library to work well with the SPUs in the Cell processor, which means we're going to be able to get a lot of physics performance out of PlayStation 3. Also on Xbox 360 to some extent, but definitely on PS3 we're going to be able to get a lot of physics capabilities out of that. Which means that, to bring [games using those methods] to a PC, you're probably going to need the hardware. Or you could maybe scale it up even further on the PC, I believe, with their hardware. I think that bodes really well for them if developers go nuts and do really cool physics on PlayStation 3, then if people want to play it to that level on PC, they'll buy the card. So it's a matter of them coming out with great applications, great games that use it. I know Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter will be using the hardware, and Unreal Tournament 2007 will be using the hardware. Not today, but eventually. So I think that's pretty exciting for them, and I think it's going to be pretty cool.

If you haven't been keeping up, in game physics are the elements that are being touted as the most important additions to next gen. While it is natural that we will get a natural progression in graphics, what will keep traditional gameplay from becoming the same old same old is physics. Currently Ageia is offering a fully fledged PPU (physics processing unit) card for the PC's. However, the Cell is able to much more accurately replicate the effects of that card then the 360 further proving that MS's efforts for 360 are just about as lacklustre as their efforts for the X-box.

[MoNkEy MaN X]

Some of the more recent PC games seem to have good physics that I have played. Everything is more interactive and such. Keep in mind it is all done with a standard CPU and not a specific physics processing unit. I just have a hard time believing that the PS3 will crush the 360 in the ingame physics department, well at least with in the next couple of years. It seems to be more about the programming and less about the processor.

What was the last big step? Ragdoll? Which is 3 years old at this point. I think the first game I saw the ragdoll physics option in was Dues EX 2. Reading about specs and supposed abilities is getting really old. There needs to be more doing than saying from all these companies and demos don't cut it either. We need something we can play as the customers that impresses.

[Superior Beatslayer]

lol, not to worry Monkey Man, these are just Slades feeble attempts to respond to Waco's critisisms towards Sony and PS3, which were actually valid.

[slade]

Some of the more recent PC games seem to have good physics that I have played. Everything is more interactive and such. Keep in mind it is all done with a standard CPU and not a specific physics processing unit. I just have a hard time believing that the PS3 will crush the 360 in the ingame physics department, well at least with in the next couple of years. It seems to be more about the programming and less about the processor.

Actually, it's about the middleware. You're right somewhat about programming but that is also dependant upon the tools of the trade and in that respect, PS3 obviously outperforms 360 as Mark Rein states.

[theWacoKid]

So where are the games demonstrating this raping and pillaging? Oh, yeah, you forgot them along with the rest of your argument. LOL! So, last time we saw Mark Rein at a developers's conference, what did he bring along with him in his duffel bag? Oh, yeah, a 360. He also pounded on nintendo big time, but now all of a sudden he's this highly credible figure pimping the ps3 and physics processing? What's wrong with this effin picture?

[MoNkEy MaN X]

Yes, I understand hardware does play a big factor. Obviously some of the more advanced comands wouldn't work out too good on a Pentium I as they would on a PIV.

[slade]

So where are the games demonstrating this raping and pillaging? Oh, yeah, you forgot them along with the rest of your argument. LOL! So, last time we saw Mark Rein at a developers's conference, what did he bring along with him in his duffel bag? Oh, yeah, a 360. He also pounded on nintendo big time, but now all of a sudden he's this highly credible figure pimping the ps3 and physics processing? What's wrong with this effin picture?

Your retarded view of events probably.

It's no question that 360 is further along then the PS3 at this point but the point here is that PS3 does what 360 don't and really, does it matter what Mark Rein did with a 360 at the last developers conference. Here he's saying that he'll do a lot more with the PS3.

As for the games, go look in one of your umpteenth retarded threads and you'll see a link to GAF which shows pictures from MotoStorm. That showed off some impressive physics if IGN is to be believed:

Compared to the E3 presentation, the game is close in presentation and functionality and look to its promise, with detail not reaching the level of the astounding E3 demo but still running with some very cool technology to provide a new way of playing in the mud. Developed by Evolution Studios, the game's presentation featured buggies and motorcycles running through a rugged desert. The game's advanced new mud physics were incredible, leaving ruts behind in the mud using real physics. For example, a motorcycle was seen cutting a deep groove in the mud while kicking up muck at a white truck following it, the trailing vehicle buckily wildly as it battled off the streaming mud while also trying to find a line to drive in the groove-etched bog.

[slade]

Yes, I understand hardware does play a big factor. Obviously some of the more advanced comands wouldn't work out too good on a Pentium I as they would on a PIV.

Right, PS3 obviously being the PIV. http://forums.videogamereview.com/images/smilies/lol.gif

[MoNkEy MaN X]

So Xbox 360 would be the AMD XP Dual Core then? LOL!!! I'm just saying, don't be suprised if Xbox 360 is able to do pretty much the same stuff as the PS3 in terms of physics. Having 3 cores to work with leaves alot open for the programmers. I'm not doubting PS3 will be good when it is released, I'm just saying don't expect anything better than what we already have, at least not for a couple years and you know the way technology moves. By the time they have something breakthrough on the physics end, the PS4 and Xbox 720 will be on the horizon.

[slade]

You can't just change your mind like that. 360 is the P1.

Seriously though, looking beyond the Cell hype, there has been a lot of talk from developers as to just how capable the Cell is when it comes to physics. In terms of pure graphical power, I don't see 360 and PS3 being all that different but when it comes down to the game world, this is where PS3 is going to shine. And this isn't even getting into the obvious advantages high definition media like Blu Ray is going to give PS3 games.

[MoNkEy MaN X]

I'm not completely sold on Blue Ray. The problem with new formats is that they are new and are not adopted yet. Also since there are multiple large storage optical disc formats, it will be difficult to say Blue Ray will be dominant. Of course having it standard in PS3 helps(depending on availability of PS3). Although, I don't think people will be too happy paying $40 per movie.

As far as the Cell chip and physics, again, I'll be a believer when I see it. I don't know if you've played any of the Half-Life 2 games but the physics are pretty darn cool in it. When I first played Counter-Strike source and compared it to the original which I played for numerous years, I was blown away. Now we have games like F.E.A.R and such. I'm not sure how much better the physics will get, or how much better we need them. Hopefully there will be a PS3 launch title that can bring the "superior cell chip" physics engine to the light of day.

About the graphics, I agree. We have pretty much hit a road block for graphics. Even PC graphics only get marginally better each year, but people still shell out another 300 dollars for the latest and greatest Nvidia or ATI cards. Actually, one thing that has gotten alot better is shadowing and lighting. Half Life 2 added something called High Dynamic Lighting or something like that, and it looks pretty cool in game.

[slade]

I'm not completely sold on Blue Ray. The problem with new formats is that they are new and are not adopted yet. Also since there are multiple large storage optical disc formats, it will be difficult to say Blue Ray will be dominant. Of course having it standard in PS3 helps(depending on availability of PS3). Although, I don't think people will be too happy paying $40 per movie.

I don't really care about Blu Ray when you apply it to movies. But when it comes to games, that high capacity is going to be a big help when it comes to large consistent worlds. And hell, if Sony bite the costs and include that 60 gig Harddrive, then the possibilities get all that much better.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

More smoke up the rear canal.

[slade]

Funny thing that you responded since you're the biggest advocate of realistic games on this board. Then again, since this isn't happening for 360, I guess I can understand the limp wristed damage control.

[Superjoint Ritual]

Funny thing that you responded since you're the biggest advocate of realistic games on this board. Then again, since this isn't happening for 360, I guess I can understand the limp wristed damage control. Obviously, you've never played Oblivion.

[slade]

Obviously, you've never played Oblivion.

Simple rag doll physics are not what they're talking about here. But thank you for trying to slink back into the thread after your little ad hom attack. Try leaving your ignorance at the door next time.

[MoNkEy MaN X]

Simple rag doll physics are not what they're talking about here. But thank you for trying to slink back into the thread after your little ad hom attack. Try leaving your ignorance at the door next time.

Then what are we talking about here?

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Obviously, you've never played Oblivion.

The idiot had the nerve to say XBOX's physics were bad, compared to what? Playstation2? I guess he never heard of games like Forza and Half-life2. He can only be comparing XBOX physics to the PC.

What matters anyway is not what some PS3 cheerleader says, what matters is the games. I don't know which system will have the better physics capability probably the PS3 it is coming a year later and cost a ton more. But what games will have the best physics? It is the GAMES with the better and more dedicated developers. Both these systems have power which can be exploited in a number of ways depending on how bad you want something done. I don't think the Forza team or the Motogp team or the Splinter Cell guys are going to have to hold a candle to anyone in terms of physics and I think the 360 oriented franchises will probably focus more on better physics than the franchises on Playstation3.

And I know Sonynutlicker -LADE thinks this is just defending XBOX but if you look top to bottom only a Sonynutlicker will sit here and say Playstation has more games that focus on physics than XBOX. Does that mean the PS3 will not be good, no, hey I'm putting my money where my mouth is, I'm already on the notification list at my local EB at number 10, they will call me as soon as they can pre-order PS3's. So I'll probably have one before him, so i'm not hating on PS3. The truth is though that it really doesn't matter what the PS3 is capable of, what matters is what developers are capable of. Polyfony for example, they haven't had to do collision physics and damage modeling in Gran Tourismo, are you telling me they are going to have a leg up against the Forza guys? I doubt it.

We will see how welll Sony devs handle all of this power all of this responsibility. They now have to not only program for single player, but they have to program for online as well. People wondered why GT4 looked as good as Forza and ran at 60fps, while Forza didn't, well we will see if Polyfony can run 60fps, have full physics, full damage modeling, and support at least 12 cars online. Its easy to get nice graphics and 60fps in a single player game with no damage modeling and not having to keep the framerate steady when online. Now Polyfony has NO excuses, we know they have the hardware so anything less than great AI, great looking cars, 12-20 cars online, damage modeling, is unacceptable unless GT5 is a launch game(i'd give them a break there) and we know its not.

[slade]

That argument is so damned idiotic, I'm having trouble even trying to take it seriously. What's worse is that in all your rambling, you don't really adopt a stance either way. Looks like someone is hedging their bets if the 360 doesn't turn out to be all that he wants it to be. But let's get to some of your idiocy:

Idiotic Statment: Numero Uno

What matters anyway is not what some PS3 cheerleader says, what matters is the games.

This is the head of Epic, not some Sony cheerleader. You know who Epic is right? They've got games in development for 360 too.

Idiotic Statement: Numero Dos

I don't know which system will have the better physics capability probably the PS3 it is coming a year later and cost a ton more. But what games will have the best physics? It is the GAMES with the better and more dedicated developers. Both these systems have power which can be exploited in a number of ways depending on how bad you want something done. I don't think the Forza team or the Motogp team or the Splinter Cell guys are going to have to hold a candle to anyone in terms of physics and I think the 360 oriented franchises will probably focus more on better physics than the franchises on Playstation3.

So, you preface your argument with the little tidbit about 'dedicated developer's' and then put in some stupid crap about Xbox games. What you miss in your bout of lunacy is that 360 is a whole lot different then Xbox when it comes to games development. The old program code these developers used for physics is useless on 360. In fact, the 360 is harder to program for and you would know this if you had read what Gabe Newell and others had to say on the issue. That is why middleware solutions like Ageia's PhysX card are being so widely praised. And this middleware is better utilized on PS3 then 360.

Also, PS2 was the only multi-core system last gen and developers that brought out the best in that system will have an easier time with the PS3. In terms of multi-core development, the PS3 developers already have a leg up and there are more of them then there are Xbox developers. Furthermore, you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that most of the Eastern developers as well as quite a significant number of Western developers, that are exclusive to Sony, are going to have more trouble jumping through the next gen hoops then 360 developers.

Idiotic Statement: Numero Tres

And I know Sonynutlicker -LADE thinks this is just defending XBOX but if you look top to bottom only a Sonynutlicker will sit here and say Playstation has more games that focus on physics than XBOX.

And where exactly did I make this grandiose statement. Try to read the thread next time, that way you won't seem as ignorant as your weed sniffing friend over there.

Finally, GT4 Online is coming to PS2.

[slade]

Then what are we talking about here?

Not simple ragdoll physics, for one.

[Superjoint Ritual]

Try leaving your ignorance at the door next time.The irony of that is too funny. It's obvious you havn't played the game, yet I'm the ignorant one because I have?

Keep on fighting the good fight, tool.

[slade]

Oh wait, I had you confused with Superior Beatslayer. Hold on while I think up a comeback more suitable to your character.

And btw, you might want to at least link me to some demonstrations of Oblivion's excellent physics such as damageable environments and terrain or if that doesn't work, you could try linking me to some credible sources that claim what you're saying. All I've heard of it is that you can stack a bunch of things up and knock them down.

[theWacoKid]

Your retarded view of events probably.

It's no question that 360 is further along then the PS3 at this point but the point here is that PS3 does what 360 don't and really, does it matter what Mark Rein did with a 360 at the last developers conference. Here he's saying that he'll do a lot more with the PS3.

As for the games, go look in one of your umpteenth retarded threads and you'll see a link to GAF which shows pictures from MotoStorm. That showed off some impressive physics if IGN is to be believed:

What a sad little pathetic pissant you are. Hey, clueless, how about some consistency. He's not saying he'll do a lot more with the ps3, you are, you little douche. Why don't you reread the article you posted, dummy. What part of "Not today, but eventually." didn't you understand? And you call me a retard, you brain cell defecient sony nut hugger. Big effin deal what they show in a MotorStorm tech demo. Show me gameplay. NO. Then dry up.

And in case you didn't get the whole bit on Mark Rein you slow witted slug, he's a PR huckster. Mark Rein will say good and bad things about everybody depending on what he's looking to sell that particular day and he'll recant on what he just said minutes afterwards. Probably one of the least believable figures in the industry today, he's know as being a hothead and a reactionary type.

He pimped the 360 at that developers's conference extolling the virtues of a controller for fps games much to the chagrin of pc gamers. Why, because he wants to pimp up a title like Gears of War, a pseudo fps, second person shooter. He slammed nintendo and the revolution controller as a gimmick that would wind up creating a slew of gimmicky worthless games. The next day he was recanting the revolution controller comments. He slammed EA mercilessly about next gen development costs. Reason. EA owns criterion which make Renderware and Epic sells the Unreal Engine. He's huckstering the Unreal Engine.

Mark Rein is one of the biggest pr shills out there. And you're hanging your physics argument for the ps3 on this guy. Good luck.

[slade]

What a sad little pathetic pissant you are. Hey, clueless, how about some consistency. He's not saying he'll do a lot more with the ps3, you are, you little douche. Why don't you reread the article you posted, dummy. What part of "Not today, but eventually." didn't you understand?

Read the first few sentences over again you clueless wannabe version of myself. He says that they might get some performance out of the 360 but the PS3 is where they will get the brunt of that performance. Or wait, since I don't want you stretching your brain cells too much, I'll quote:

Mark Rein: One thing AGEIA's done that's really smart is that--well, if you've seen our PS3 demo, and this is really version 1, really not a finished performance at all, but we've got some really great cool physics things going on PS3. They've done a really good job of optimizing their library to work well with the SPUs in the Cell processor, which means we're going to be able to get a lot of physics performance out of PlayStation 3. Also on Xbox 360 to some extent, but definitely on PS3 we're going to be able to get a lot of physics capabilities out of that.

You were an idiot when you left and you're still an idiot now. Your hiatus, most of which you probably spent at team Xbox forums, did you no good and you seem to have lost all reasoning capabilities while you were away. All your sensationalist media BS is just that, sensationalist media BS. And it's rich that you're taking potshots at Mark Rein. I've never even spoken to the man and I'll take his word over your clueless wannabe a$$.

[thelastword]

Amazing isn't it? When the best these MS reamed ponies can come up with are useless and baseless responses to nothing but solid evidence and overwhelming consent as to the superiority of the PS3 over that of the 360. You just know these guys are not satisfied with the MS machine, deep under that is. Too much defense IMO.

Are these arguments just over power and capability? Hell NO!, that alone does not formulate the SUCCESS ticket. It's all about how these capabilities are maximized and balanced and the talent that exists at Sony Central.

Some of you guys are really in denial. There's absolutely no game on the 360 that comes close to Lair, None. Nothing on the 360 can match the complexity and detail shown in these dragon models and that was done with atmospheric effects up the wazoo. Ratchet and Clank 4 at the GDC was so impressive that it is on par if not betterlooking than many current CG films. Did you guys see the size of that city? the draw distance, the bustling activity, now this is next gen.

Warhawk is using raytraced clouds, procedural water, a tonne of enemies will be onscreen at once, and get this you unbelievers, it will be a 1080p game with 4x AA and highlevel Aniso, it will be buttery smooth at 60fps, now yet again, this is next gen. What's more, the Dev said that they've only scratched the surface with what they want to accomplish and by the time it's done alot more would be implemented to round off and polish the package.

Motorstorm is what really takes gaming to a next level though, what these guys are trying to do with this racer is just phenomenal. Mud that spills realistically and dries off, which also affects the suspension of your vehicles, contours in the desert/tracks where you dip through realistically. Varying paths and terrain which would all affect your car/buggy and naturally your chances of victory.

This was all at the GDC and so much more of course, but then these demos that were shown and manipulated were stripped from the main game only to show certain aspects of next gen programming that should take precedence and give gamers that next gen feel. Still many of these demos shown were from builds from last year december and still they rape the second gen games on the 360, farless when we see them further along at E3 2006 and tearfully so, when they are done.

360 is just not impressing me yet and it has had some good time in other to do so. 99 Nights can't hold a candle to Heavenly Sword graphically and in the physics department as was shown at the GDC. The performance of that system is just underwhelming. If it is to be believed, that the 360 is as capable as the PS3, why can't Oblivion maintain a steady framerate on this tricore machine? When you have a game as big as Oblivion which was delayed for more polish and optimizing, why then does the framerate dip so low when you're only riding an effin horse, it's plain IMO, that's just ridiculous.

Towards the topic at hand, Sony is pushing physics, huge worlds, High def 1080P games. Phil Harrison said that all the devs were briefed to program with a harddrive in mind, that's saying alot isn't it. The 360 will be left in the dust, there is nothing that the xbox 360 will have that won't be available on the PS3 in finer form, one way or the other. Where it gets messy is here, there will be alot that the PS3 will have that's not and won't be available on or to the 360. I'm talking huge storage, 1080P games, an online strategy that has very well eclipsed xbox live with every new piece of enhancement and newsbit divulged.

Physics on the PS2 was great, GT4 still has some of the best physics in a game this gen. Still though, GT4 looks better than Forza and runs at a buttery smooth 60fps, deal with that TMG. MS is going under, their devs can't hold a candle to Sony Worldwide Studios. I've been saying this all along and I'll say it again, next gen (It begins with PS3) will indicate once and for all who the best devs are in the business. PS3 software will put to shame second gen 360 offerings at launch "MARK MY WORDS". E3 will tell the tale even clearer. Sony Has the best hardware, the best devs, the most support.

Naughty Dog (one of my favourite developers) was touted by that whining Gabe Newell as being the furthest along with mulithreaded programming he's ever seen. What we saw of Ratchet at the GDC was perhaps just a glimpse of the ICE engine which is rumoured to be under construction in part by Naughty Dog.

Polyphony, Zipper, Cambridge, Ninja Theory, Sony Bend, Evolution Studios, Insomniac, Sony Santa Monica and The SOTC team are just some of the first party Devs that has quality written all over them, with the exclusion of Ninja theory these guys made the PS2 sing the sweetest melodies. What's more third parties like Konami, Namco and Capcom who also did the same and gave the PS2 some of the best exclusives both technically and via gameplay are all more in tune with multithreaded programming than the majority of 360 devs. Factor Five is onboard now, so is Bioware (not that I'm a fan of these guys) Bioware that is, but then if their software is buggy it will just not pass over Sony's microscope, Sony is adamant on quality and efficiently programmed games.

The writing is on the wall, there's just too much going against the 360. The best Pc devs are on board for the PS3, The best multicore programmers are PS2 first party Devs from this gen. The best third party devs are just as capable with grass roots and low level programming especially Konami and Namco. I see a solid beating coming, PS3 has the 360 beat in graphics, physics, support, optical capacity,features and very likely,online as well. Won't it be a massacre? I think this is too clearcut for even the most rabid fan to discredit. Hell! even TMG want's to preorder one on day ONE..

[Superior Beatslayer]

Simple rag doll physics are not what they're talking about here. But thank you for trying to slink back into the thread after your little ad hom attack. Try leaving your ignorance at the door next time.

Slade, stfu. Everyone on this board is either a Playstation fan and a milkdrinker as it's usually put, or they're full of ignorance?? **** that **** ***** YOUR the one thats ignorant. I think the way you go around calling everyone ignorant who's not a Sony is damn ignorant. There you just took the ignorance crown, keep it up ya delirious bastard.

[slade]

Slade, stfu. Everyone on this board is either a Playstation fan and a milkdrinker as it's usually put, or they're full of ignorance?? **** that **** ***** YOUR the one thats ignorant. I think the way you go around calling everyone ignorant who's not a Sony is damn ignorant. There you just took the ignorance crown, keep it up ya delirious bastard.

I submit reason number one why you should never post under the influence of drugs.

Amazing isn't it? When the best these MS reamed ponies can come up with are useless and baseless responses to nothing but solid evidence and overwhelming consent as to the superiority of the PS3 over that of the 360. You just know these guys are not satisfied with the MS machine, deep under that is. Too much defense IMO.

You pretty much just said it all right there. The closest example used is Oblivion and that is using Havok physics middleware which was used in Xbox 360 launch titles like Amped 3. It's pretty much obsolete until its next revision and given that Ageia's tech is newer and the 360 can't fully handle it, then I see the 360 struggling with the next revision of Havok middleware as well. And even then, Havok middleware is also supplied on PS3.

[Mochan]

Some of the more recent PC games seem to have good physics that I have played. Everything is more interactive and such. Keep in mind it is all done with a standard CPU and not a specific physics processing unit. I just have a hard time believing that the PS3 will crush the 360 in the ingame physics department, well at least with in the next couple of years. It seems to be more about the programming and less about the processor.

Nah, current PC games are mostly just using Havok to do their physics. This could rightly be called child's play compared to what a dedicated PPU will be doing. It will be like how software 3D graphics looks compared to dedicated 3D GPU processing (in console terms, it will be like the graphical jump between SuperNES and Play Station).

In physics terms, in games today we usually just see a few objects have actual physics. Crates, bodies, and projectiles. That's because the CPU has other things to do than process physics, so they have to limit the physics processing. With a dedicated PPU, the intention is to apply physics to almost everything in the game world.

In the PPU demos we saw an entire room cluttered with junk and how each and every single one reacted to physics. This is the kind of immersion Ageia is going for. We will soon see liquid water physics, which while some might say is just eyecandy or what not, will probably soon get to see applied well to gameplay. (XBox 360 never showed what it was capable for this but on the PS3 we had the rubber duckie demo). We will soon see games where firing a bazooka at a wall will shatter it into little itsy bitsy bits, and the shrapnel maybe flicking and damaging you in a non-scripted real-time manner, things like that.


I'm just saying, don't be suprised if Xbox 360 is able to do pretty much the same stuff as the PS3 in terms of physics.

I'm not convinced of this; the Cell is allegedly good at number crunching, which is what physics processing is all about. The 360's cores are more like regular CPUs, actually they're not even as good as Athlon 64s/X2s if developer conjecture is to be believed.

I do agree with you though that a revolution in physics gameplay is still a long way off. It's going to take a LONG time for the PPU to be integrated as a standard device on PCs, I don't know if the PS3 will help it along (I hope it will) but the 3D graphics revolution did not happen overnight; it took several years for it to finally come to fruition as 2D GPUs were slowly phased out and 3D GPUs became standard.

Regarding that MotoStorm comment on mud, I'm sure the 360 can still pull off this kind of physics. That's not quite yet the kind of physics revolution we should be looking forward to -- but it's the start. When we see a world as big as Oblivion have mud physics like that applied to a 100 cars, now that's what we're talking about as a physics revolution. Or hey maybe the soil erosion thing those retards in Bethesda were talking about in Oblivion, LOL.

About the graphics, I agree. We have pretty much hit a road block for graphics. Even PC graphics only get marginally better each year, but people still shell out another 300 dollars for the latest and greatest Nvidia or ATI cards. Actually, one thing that has gotten alot better is shadowing and lighting. Half Life 2 added something called High Dynamic Lighting or something like that, and it looks pretty cool in game.

HDR (High Dynamic Range). PC graphics are still improving, it's not a huge jump from the days when Tomb Raider finally came online but the difference is still quite huge. HDR gives a huge visual boost and I find now that games without it are a lot less exciting to play.

And there's still a lot of improvement to come in graphics, though at what cost I do not know. After playing Oblivion you *know* there's still a lot more that can be done with graphics. The draw distance in Oblivion is still shot; there's a lot more that can be done here. And I'm not even going to get into the shadowing (or what is left of it). We haven't hit a wall or anything just yet, there's still a lot that can be done for graphics.


Originally Posted by slade
Funny thing that you responded since you're the biggest advocate of realistic games on this board. Then again, since this isn't happening for 360, I guess I can understand the limp wristed damage control.
Obviously, you've never played Oblivion.

Not sure what you mean by that, SJR. Oblivion's physics are still very simple, and we had those kinds of physics on the PC for the last two years or so.

[Superjoint Ritual]

Amazing isn't it? When the best these MS reamed ponies can come up with are useless and baseless responses to nothing but solid evidence and overwhelming consent as to the superiority of the PS3 over that of the 360. You just know these guys are not satisfied with the MS machine, deep under that is. Too much defense IMO. Amazing, that we're talking about actual games, while you're qouting PR speak from a hack. Yeah, Quake 4 was so amazing Mark. :rolleyes: Nobodies in doubt the Ps3 will be a powerful console with great games. I can't wait for Devil May Cry 4, believe me. But until the super, almighty powerful Ps3 translates to my livingroom... Please, shut the f*** up... At least until E3. Can you do that ? Next gen arrived with Oblivion and it has set the standard.

It's obvious you and slade dont own, and probably never played, a 360. Here's an idea: Play the game for the game, not for the name of the console playing the game. I hate the idea of M$ leading the videogame market. But Oblivion is the most realistic game ever put on a CONSOLE. And considering that it's a first gen 360 game, I'm prety hyped for the 360's future. But I love great games on any console... What do I know ?

[MoNkEy MaN X]

I wouldn't say the 360's processors are inferior to the X2s, just different. The PowerPC chips are probably better suited for something like a dedicated game machine vs the X2s or Pentium Ds. I think having 3 cores may suprise people in the end after seeing what is capable with essentially 3 CPUs.

Still, even with fancy smancy, everything reacts physics, that can't save a ****ty game, well maybe once, the first game that actually implaments it.

[thelastword]

Amazing, that we're talking about actual games, while you're qouting PR speak from a hack. Yeah, Quake 4 was so amazing Mark. What are you talking about? If you don't know, I suggest you shut the duck up. What the eff does Mark Rein have to do with Quake 4 and who's talking about quake anyway.

The 360 will have some great games, I'm not denying that. It's not all about graphics, that is indeed true, but then the games on offer now, even Oblivion is of no order of magnitude greater than what's been available to gamers in the perspective of gameplay and even physics. What has been shown on the PS3 are steps that are really impressive indeed. Like I've said before, The 360 has been out for a while, the devs should be familiar enough with the architecture to atleast show us mind blowing concepts, graphics and physics. E3 will be the last lap for the 360 to display such.

If stripped out PS3 demo's from the december 2005 build by the way from incomplete kits can look better than Graw and Oblivion and of course these games were privy to a long enough development cycle, then I will become suspicious of the 360's capabalities. I mean why can't the ease of development and it's unified architecture bring forward better results on games which are clearly not doing as much as PS3 games.

The fact is that, Sony did ship RSX kits to developers as of late January. PS3 devs now have now have the graphical wonder in hand. E3 will be MS's last chance to show something that compares or shut up. If the machine is capable enough, let's see something revolutionary or STFU. The best looking games on the 360 has been left in the dust, not even the recent oblivion runs at a steady framerate at 720p, you do the math. For your sake and all the others, I hope games like Mass effect and Gears of War improve on what we've seen thus far. If Gears of War does not look as good as UT2k7 and for crying out loud if that game does not run at 60 fps come E3, MS should hang their hat on this console and instead pull all of their resources to complete the delayed Vista.

[slade]

Amazing, that we're talking about actual games, while you're qouting PR speak from a hack. Yeah, Quake 4 was so amazing Mark. :rolleyes:

What the hell does Mark Rein have to do with Quake 4? And please, lay off the verbal attacks on the man. He knows more about the VG industry then all of us armchair quarterbacks.

It's obvious you and slade dont own, and probably never played, a 360. Here's an idea: Play the game for the game, not for the name of the console playing the game. I hate the idea of M$ leading the videogame market. But Oblivion is the most realistic game ever put on a CONSOLE. And considering that it's a first gen 360 game, I'm prety hyped for the 360's future. But I love great games on any console... What do I know ?

Read what I said about the Havok Middleware Oblivion is using. Ageia's PPU should be able to do a whole lot more then that. In the end, this isn't about current gen gameplay with next gen graphics. It's about next gen graphics matching up with next gen gameplay.

[Superior Beatslayer]

The 360 has been out for a while, the devs should be familiar enough with the architecture to atleast show us mind blowing concepts, graphics and physics. E3 will be the last lap for the 360 to display such.



The 360 has been on market for a grand total of 4 and a half months roughly. I've heard of many games take 3 times as long as that to develop from scratch. Halo took years. Lots of good 360 are in production as we speak.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

There's no reasoning with Slade when he is in this mode.

<b>That argument is so damned idiotic, I'm having trouble even trying to take it seriously. What's worse is that in all your rambling, you don't really adopt a stance either way. Looks like someone is hedging their bets if the 360 doesn't turn out to be all that he wants it to be. </b> To a fanboy such as yourself I guess you would think i'm hedging my bets and don't want to adopt a stance. But i've adopted a stance, its the same stance i've always had since I been on these boards. I am in favor of the best console technology out there whether its MS, Sony or Nintendo. I believe the better the technology the better the platform for DEVELOPERS to create great games, PERIOD. I can't help it if the PS2 was a piece of crap that in my opinion was hardly nextgen back then, that was my opinion about the PS2. My opinion about the PS3 is different. I hope it murders rapes and pilages 360 because if it does that means it is one bad-azz piece of hardware.

As far as hedging my bets i'm being a realist. What exactly do you expect from 360? It launched a year earlier and will cost significantly less than PS3. So should the PS3 NOT be more powerful than the 360 in EVERY WAY MEASURABLE? If it isn't I would consider that a failure(cough cough Revolution)! So it won't be a surprise if the PS3 is better than 360 in physics calculations, but it will be a surprise giving Sony's track record if the PS3 "murders and rapes" 360 in physics.

Basically I believe(which does leave room for doubt) the PS3 will be more powerful in all categories than the 360, but back to my earlier point it will be up to developers to ultimately exploit this. Every PS3 game won't look better, perform better, and have better physics than every 360 game. Even genre for genre. In the next 2 - 3 years the PS3 and 360 will likely be going head to head in terms of impressive games technologically because the PS3 is behind the development curve. So despite any advantage in power, I doubt we will see it. I think this is evident by the fact both systems will be sharing so many of the same games, in fact PS3 will be hosting a bunch of 360 old ports. When PS3 launches the PS3, 360 and PCs will all be hosting games that are largely equivalent in performance and appearance and all we will be arguing about is "this one loads faster, this one has a faster framerate, this one performs better online." I don't think we will be arguing 'WOW PS3 is an order of magnitude more powerful than 360!"

Now, here is one of my hopes: I hope I'm wrong and I hope you are right! Because if the PS3 rapes and murders 360 in ANY way then the system is going to be aweseome and I am all for improvements. So let us hope you are right, but giving Sony's track record I think it kinda idiotic to stand-up on a soap-box boasting and bragging for Sony, you've tended to do that in the past and always ended up with egg on your face, of course you never let that stop you nor have never been ashamed for it.

[Glockstar]

The 360 has been out for a while, the devs should be familiar enough with the architecture to atleast show us mind blowing concepts, graphics and physics. E3 will be the last lap for the 360 to display such. ...

Wow. You really are a #@$%ing idiot, aren't you?

We're going to remember this. And 4 months after the PS3 is out, when it's library looks like this...

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/article/540/540689/suikoden-iv-playtest-20040820020721343.jpg

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/article/687/687726/disgaea-2-20060210010031139.jpg

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/article/666/666875/dynasty-warriors-5-xtreme-legends-20051115052355521.jpg

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/ggxx_1218_2.jpg

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/article/536/536952/ratchet-and-clank-up-your-arsenal-20040809111013531.jpg


...we're going to remind you, and revisit this insipid post of yours.

[thelastword]

Wow. You really are a #@$%ing idiot, aren't you?

We're going to remember this. And 4 months after the PS3 is out, when it's library looks like this...

That pile you wrote and the pics you just posted what's the effing relevance to what's being discussed. I'm not saying that better games won't make it to the 360, I did say they would, did you miss that part conveniently. What we've seen in those stripped out demos on display at the GDC indicates much. These demos only scratched the surface of what the ps3 is capable of and still they are more impressive than some of the best games on the 360. Games that are finished, games which were in development for over two years.

Physics is indeed the next best thing apart from graphical realism or aesthetics, It will immerse gamers in atmospheres and worlds more accurate and believable. My point was and still is, if december builds of early PS3 games can impress so much, relative to physics and graphics, that says alot about about the capabilities of the machine. The 360 is not the PS2. All that we've been hearing from the devs and xbox fanboys is how easy this machine is to develop for. When is there going to be a game, one effing game to convince me of it's true capabilities. Will that game come after the PS3 launches? Will it have a chance then? Tell me what's the effing deal?

[Glockstar]

You don't #@$%ing get it.

I'm done with ya. Ain't nothin' but a teet-sucking chocolate-starfish-smelling fanboy after all.

[slade]

So let us hope you are right, but giving Sony's track record I think it kinda idiotic to stand-up on a soap-box boasting and bragging for Sony, you've tended to do that in the past and always ended up with egg on your face, of course you never let that stop you nor have never been ashamed for it.

Hrmmm, check that link in my sig. You've pretty much admitted I was right so I guess that's that. I'm not quite interested in that pile about your being a real gamer and what not.

That pile you wrote and the pics you just posted what's the effing relevance to what's being discussed.

I don't get it either. What the hell are you talking about, Glockstar? And why choose some of the most gorgeous games in their respective genres?

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Hrmmm, check that link in my sig. You've pretty much admitted I was right so I guess that's that. I'm not quite interested in that pile about your being a real gamer and what not.



I don't get it either. What the hell are you talking about, Glockstar? And why choose some of the most gorgeous games in their respective genres?

LOL I don't care about a link in your profile or whatever. Boy you really think highly of yourself I see. I guess you don't realize nobody else does. And as has been proven time and again u stick your tail between your legs and run like you just did when things don't go your way you can't talk with sense.

I hope for another reason the PS3 turns out to be as great as you think it is, I don't wanna hear your excuses for another 5 years why the PS3 doesn't suck when it does. So hopefully it won't suck cause either way we are going to have to suffer your boast and bragging, at least if the console kicks azz you'd be right for once.

[Jupiter_x]

Wow! Talk about gettin' Gang Fuct!

[slade]

LOL I don't care about a link in your profile or whatever. Boy you really think highly of yourself I see. I guess you don't realize nobody else does. And as has been proven time and again u stick your tail between your legs and run like you just did when things don't go your way you can't talk with sense.

No, I just don't have the patience I used to when dealing with clowns like you. And I won't even go into the mass of contradictions your last post caused with everything you've said up to this point. Just slink off and let it lie, little buddy. Your hypocricy isn't the point of this thread.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

No, I just don't have the patience I used to when dealing with clowns like you. And I won't even go into the mass of contradictions your last post caused with everything you've said up to this point. Just slink off and let it lie, little buddy. Your hypocricy isn't the point of this thread.

Aww Slade get's mad and don't wanna play? U want some milk and cookies maybe a diaper change.

What u need to do is wait till the PS3 comes out and then pimp it, you are talking shiz about something you don't have the slightest clue about. You wanna school everybody on physics and you've never been a PC gamer and spent the entire last generation playing 2D fighters. You are the mass contra-dick-tion, you spent the entire last generation telling us how none of this matters, and now it all does, now it is all that matters, damn the games, damn the developers! Power, physics, graphics is all important now that you think the PS3, coming a full year later and costing much more, will be indeed more powerful. You wanna go out on any other limbs there Deadstroke?

[slade]

Yep, that's me alright. Concerned only with power. We'll leave the fact that this concerns games you care about the most. And yet there you were trying to deride the original article. Drop the act already and embrace what you are; a phony stooge that likes the Xbox so much he's willing to go back against everything he has said for the past three years.

[theWacoKid]

So, sonyboy still's spewing out the venom. Well, here's some food for thought. John Carmack doesn't see a whole lot of advancement materializing out of physics and Carmack is a hell of a lot bigger in terms of stature than a flunky loud mouth vp at Epic. So, let's see what he had to say about the issue.

So, if we're not going to need a parallel processor to run reams of AI calculations, what about physics simulation? Carmack thinks we're a long way off from seeing any major movement in this area. If you created a huge world where objects all around you were simulated in real physics, it would definitely be processor-intensive. But there are a number of problems.

"The problem with physics is that it's not scalable in orders of magnitude like graphics," he explains. There's no equivalent of 'level of detail' in physics - objects far away have to be simulated just the same as objects that are close. Furthermore, you can't decide not to simulate something just because the player doesn't see it on the screen; if you knock over a pile of crates, they have to fall over even if your back is turned. And of course you don't want the physics to work differently based on whether a player is looking at the object being simulated or not.

For this reason Carmack thinks we're still a ways away from seeing deep physics simulations being built into a game in such a way that they have a major impact on the gameplay. We'll see a lot of 'non-interactive' physics in the near future - such as realistic smoke pouring across the environment, or cooler simulations of liquid - but nothing major in the way of gameplay.

Carmack notes with some irony that in the same way id Software raises the graphical bar for games, other companies are raising the standards for physics, so that id has to integrate simulations into their games or they look dated.

He goes on to say that simulating a complex world is a hard problem. "Your game will either be fragile or slow," he says, and it had better do "something amazing" with regards to gameplay in order to make up for that. Carmack says that, in the next generation, he'd rather see processing power go towards making console games run at 60 frames per second rather than doing in-depth physics.

However, let's throw little doggy slade a bone and say that physics will have this massive impact on gaming in next gen. Is the 360 left out in the cold? Only if you're a sony nut-hugging tool. Here's a few paragraph's on a little know feature of the ATI gpu xenos for the 360.

The last interesting aspect I’d like to discuss about the Xbox 360 is by no means a secret but I feel hasn’t been touched upon nearly enough - The potential for physics processing. Physics processing is the hot new area of gaming that the next generation of consoles seems to have missed. Or has it? None of the next generation consoles are expected to have a dedicated physics chip, as will be the case in the near future in the PC space. However, there is some functionality. Half Life 2, which was made more realistic in part by physics middleware provider Havok, showed us how much fun it is to defeat your enemy by, say, destroying the high wooden ledge he’s standing on and letting gravity do the dirty work, as opposed to everyone in the head. It was an immersive step in the right direction. It’s traditionally been the host CPUs job to process physics, as is the case with Half Life 2, and CPUs can do it, albeit not terribly efficiently. Physics calculations are very parallel in nature not at all unlike… graphics calculations.

Back in October of 2005 ATI came out and publicly stated what many already knew, and some were already doing - That graphics cards are not only capable of physics calculations, they’re an order of magnitude faster than same generation CPUs due to their extreme parallelism. But isn’t the GPU busy processing the graphics though? It’s true that most previous instances of physics-processing graphics chips did require near exclusive use of the GPU, but Xenos is different in two big ways. The first is an added function called MEMEXPORT, which basically allows writing and reading of floating point data between Xenos and the 360’s main RAM. This single command effectively turns Xenos into a massive FPU co-processor, but still there’s the nagging problem of physics calculations hogging the shading resources. The other big difference as stated earlier, is that Xenos is the first programmable unified shading design! In theory there’d be no difference to the GPU whether it’s processing for shading or physics. I believe it’s entirely possible and probable that some developers may choose to lockdown 33% of the shading ability of the Xenos and use that 1/3 as a virtual dedicated physics processor. This would reduce the shading ability of the 360 by the same 33%, but it would also be theoretically capable of nearly equaling the entire physics processing performance of the main CPU! The reason for the specific 33% or 1/3 lockdown example lies in the Xenos 48 shading processor design being broken into 3 arrays of 16. Although Xenos is programmable between the arrays, it may prove more efficient to lock a complete array for dedication. For reference, the Xenon CPU is capable of ~ 9 billion scaler ops/sec, while the Xenos GPU is capable of ~ 24.6 billion scaler ops/sec or 8.2 billion per each of the three arrays of 16 shading processors. In short, all else being equal, developers may have the option to take a 33% hit in the shading capability of the 360 in order to gain a physics co-processor capable of ~8.2 billion scaler operations per second. Again this is speculation and there are a lot of variables, not the least of which is the latency of the MEMEXPORT function, so I contacted ATI to clarify.

Just prior to the release of this article, ATI senior architect Clay Taylor replied, confirming the physics processing potential of Xenos. Although specific workloads (i.e. physics-specific instructions) are not assignable to ALU arrays in a discrete manner, he confirmed it is entirely possible that: “Physics processing could be interleaved into the command stream and would use the percentage of the ALU core that the work required.” The ability to effectively scale the use of Xenos as both a PPU and GPU opens many creative doors for developers. I’m rather surprised that Microsoft isn’t touting this capability, as it was obviously intended by ATI. The physics processing ability will come at the cost of shading ability but the proportion is entirely at the developer’s discretion. I can think of many instances (e.g. indoor scenes) or even game style choices in which the powerful shading unit will have plenty of extra cycles to act as a PPU.

So, even if those three cores would be somehow incapable of handling physics calculations the GPU could be tapped to assist. This entire thread is crap, Mark Rein, blah, blah, blah. Rape, pillage, yaddah, yaddah. Let's see if sony can even scrape together a half decent compiler before expecting them to incorporate next gen physics.

[slade]

You took Carmack's quoting out of context. A lot of it applies to what he was saying about multi-core architecture. And furthermore, he pretty much says that ID's been left behind in the physics game:

Carmack notes with some irony that in the same way id Software raises the graphical bar for games, other companies are raising the standards for physics, so that id has to integrate simulations into their games or they look dated.

Also, that last paragraph is the real kicker. The man's design philosophy doesn't favor physics and that's all right. Some detail will always have to sacrificed because of graphical fidelity. You only have to look at 360 launch games like PGR3 to see that.

And this leads me directly to that second article you linked. If you pull in the GPU to do physics tasks, it only stands to reason that it won't be doing other work like the article states. So, there's a compromise going on and this compromise will only confine the creativity of developers. Also, much of this crap about Xenos you posted sounds like the free AA comments from pre launch. We learned pretty fast that it wasn't completely free, didn't we? Tiling could not be done without sacrificing this supposedly free AA.

[Glockstar]

That pile you wrote and the pics you just posted what's the effing relevance to what's being discussed.

I don't get it either. What the hell are you talking about, Glockstar? And why choose some of the most gorgeous games in their respective genres?

What's not to get? Ohhh, maybe you guys don't get it because you like these types of games.(?) A thousand PS1-ish RPGs... dozens of PS1-ish strategy-RPGs... hundreds of Dynasty Warriors... hundreds of 2D fighters... and yet another Ratchet & Clank game

The PS2 gets too much credit for games like Guitar Hero, Katamari Damacy, and Shadows of Colossus; those games are the exception - the once-in-a-great-while exception - not the rule. The rule are those "games" I depicted. (And the Maddens and the hundreds of other licensed/movie games that can be found on any system - but that's another subject.)

And the sad thing about those games is not the sheer quantity of them - it's that their gameplay - and their graphics - and their stories - are so antiquated. Like I said, PS1 games. Disquised as PS2 games. There's a lot of people here who seem to think that the PS3 will once again get all of the support - particularly the Japanese game-support. Well I say to them, Expect the same for the PS3.

Jaw-dropping graphics, new-fangled physics... doesn't matter. Why? As evidenced in those pics I posted for y'all, and by the genres that they "excel" in, Japanese game-makers won't use them. They're lazy. Either that or they're poor. Or extremely cash-conscious. This is what Ken Kutaragi was talking about when shortly after Sony unveiled the PS3 he said, 'Hey, we're making this great awesome machine for you guys - please make games that will befit it. Please, please, please, please, please!' And if you read inbetween the lines, you'd know that this is exactly what he was talking about. (Examples of "this" being those games and genres I depicted.)

Y'all need to remember - especially you thelastturd, you friggin brownie hound - that the PS2 - with it's Emotion Engine (can I get an 'Oooooooh!' :rolleyes: ) - was supposed to be this great machine once too. Six years later we're finally seeing evidence of it's power.

Of course, we're still seeing the same old PS1 games too.

Expect the same. At launch. At four months out. And heck, even four years out! And you know why. (Ken Kutaragi can beg and plead all he wants, but milking it is how the Japanese game-makers make their money, so don't think they'll change.)

You got guys like lastword who like to turn a blind to such things when such things pertain to their own system, but then harp and bark and wail about the slightest of things when it comes to the Xbox. That's bs. I don't know, maybe the PS2 is your first system(?)... but you will still stand to be corrected. And like I said, four months after the PS3's release we're going to revisist this topic and learn you.

Also, thelastturd, the PS2 didn't get going for over a year. It took it that long. Funny you don't remember that.(?) But what's even funnier is that the 360 only gets four months with you. Look at any console past: a year is usually what it takes before game-makers get up to speed. (Except with the Japanese game-making community - they're behind another 5-6 years.)

[slade]

What's not to get? Ohhh, maybe you guys don't get it because you like these types of games.(?) A thousand PS1-ish RPGs... dozens of PS1-ish strategy-RPGs... hundreds of Dynasty Warriors... hundreds of 2D fighters... and yet another Ratchet & Clank game

Eh, that post would have had more of a point if you hadn't chosen some of the best games in those particular genres. Barring Suikoden 4, of course. If PS3 is like that four months into its lifecycle with games of those quality, I don't think you'll be learning anyone anything.

Also, much of your post is a mass of misinformation. I'm going to eat right now so I won't get into it but maybe sometime later, I might.

[theWacoKid]

You took Carmack's quoting out of context. A lot of it applies to what he was saying about multi-core architecture. And furthermore, he pretty much says that ID's been left behind in the physics game:



Also, that last paragraph is the real kicker. The man's design philosophy doesn't favor physics and that's all right. Some detail will always have to sacrificed because of graphical fidelity. You only have to look at 360 launch games like PGR3 to see that.

And this leads me directly to that second article you linked. If you pull in the GPU to do physics tasks, it only stands to reason that it won't be doing other work like the article states. So, there's a compromise going on and this compromise will only confine the creativity of developers. Also, much of this crap about Xenos you posted sounds like the free AA comments from pre launch. We learned pretty fast that it wasn't completely free, didn't we? Tiling could not be done without sacrificing this supposedly free AA.

Nothing was taken out of context. And once again, you put your idiotic proclamations in the mouths of a well respected developer. Aren't you embaressed by your ridiculous postulations. Your credibility as a poster is rapidly approaching zilch level if it isn't already there.

The ATI gpu could be used to assist, if need be. And hey, dum dum, everything's a fricking comprimise. I want to see see those 1080p games sony is promsiing. Oh, yeah, with only 256megs of graphics ram, that'll be a neat trick to pull off.

Worry about that compiler, worry that developers will able to do much of anything with the hydra beast sony has created the first couple of years. How many years has it been, sony boy, with that Emotion Engine chip and how it was supposed to redefine the computing paradigm as we know it. In five plus years, I'm still waiting for a ps2 game to appear that couldn't be done on a competing console that would prove that this computing paradigm of parrallel processing actually yields superior results and amounts to something more than just a billow of hype smoke. Ack, ack, ack.

Go ahead, show me that one sony game that proves the parallel processing paradigm of general purpose cpu coupled with vector units yields results not attainable by a conventional architecture. No? Then STFU already about the frickin cell, because the cell is nothing more than Emotion Engine take 2. Same song and dance, just a different dance club.

So, you keep on dreaming about your glorious ps3 physics and wake us when you actually have something to crow about. Your rebuttals are weak, because you have no argument to begin with.

[slade]

Nothing was taken out of context. And once again, you put your idiotic proclamations in the mouths of a well respected developer. Aren't you embaressed by your ridiculous postulations. Your credibility as a poster is rapidly approaching zilch level if it isn't already there.

What exactly did I say that Carmack didn't? In fact, your second article is more a refutation of Carmack then anything I said. At the beginning of your second article:

Physics processing is the hot new area of gaming that the next generation of consoles seems to have missed. Or has it?

So, is Carmack wrong or are you taking his comments out of context? It's likely the second. His design philosophy does not take physics into account and that's ok.

The ATI gpu could be used to assist, if need be. And hey, dum dum, everything's a fricking comprimise.

Pulling in the GPU to assist the CPU in a task is not a compromise PS3 will have to make and that will leave more breathing room for developers. All you've done is showcase the limitation of the 360 CPU.

As for a Sony 1080p game, Untold Legends is one. Warhawk could be another although this is mostly rumor at this point.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

It's all about the memory Processing speeds are important but it's going to come down to memory. The xbox had twice the amount of memory as the PS2 and that was the difference the PS2 actually had a faster processor and we all know how that ended.

Both the the 360 and the PS3 is going to have 256 megs of memory and that's going to be the most important spec. And it's even. To think that the PS3 is going to have some kind of dramatic difference in Physics your kidding yourself.

[slade]

To think that the PS3 is going to have some kind of dramatic difference in Physics your kidding yourself.

http://forums.videogamereview.com/images/smilies/mad2.gif

Well then, I guess everybody is kidding themselves and memory is just that important to physics.

http://forums.videogamereview.com/images/smilies/prrr.gif Go read some tech comparisons, you hack.

[Jupiter_x]

http://forums.videogamereview.com/images/smilies/mad2.gif

Well then, I guess everybody is kidding themselves and memory is just that important to physics.

http://forums.videogamereview.com/images/smilies/prrr.gif Go read some tech comparisons, you hack.

Don't even bother attempting to explain it Slade, you are just beating a dead horse!
Xbox is the be all end all!

[slade]

Yeah, I'm getting the feeling that this argument has just about run its course. As hard as they argue, nothing they say can refute what the original article said.

[thelastword]

Carmack, Carmack, Carmack! your only source of refuge isn't he? amazingly you're still left in the open, and the two of you will face the bitter fury of reality if you continue to deny progress and change.

Carmack is a single core coding god. Newell is great just the same, but these guys are only announcing their end days, if they don't step up to the likes of Sony first party devs in the PS3 generation. It is time for multicore architectures, the consoles are not the only gaming platforms carrying this weight, it's an effing point in transition. There was 2d and now there's 3d, we can't have 10ghz cpu's on one core, so then, we have several of them instead, what's the big deal? These architectures would have to be programmed differently? So what? Multicore programming is not a concept discovered just yesterday.

The PS2 was more or less the stepping stone towards the PS3, it had a multicore architecture which yielded amazing results. Anyone who denies this is full of it. It could only take such an architecture to keep up and in certain cases surpass the competing consoles in terms of performance. If the ps2 had a simplified cpu like the xbox and made it's debut almost 2 years ahead of it, it would have no chance whatsoever to compete. Hell! the xbox is dead and still the PS2's graphics are improving and getting better with GOW2 and many more. So yes, PS2 devs have been ushered into multicore programming, they have excelled at it based on their results and they are now ready to outclass lazy and backward thinking devs in this multicore era.


Gabe Newell himself declared, that a first party Sony developer is the furthest ahead when it comes to multithreaded programming. Sony is pulling all their resources together according to Phil Harrison, many of their first party studios including Naughty Dog (which Gabe referred to) is now under the belt of Sony Worldwide Studios. These guys will be working more closely together this time around, sharing assets and engines to ensure that everything that comes out of Sony Studios is A class.

You guys are just in denial of the facts. Could the Xbox or the Gc have done a Zone of the Enders 2 just as it was on the PS2. The burnout series on the ps2 has superior lighting and particle effects than all of the other consoles including the recent port to the 360. The ps2 is still churning out great looking games six years after the fact. All the BS talk we keep hearing about how crappy the EE is just that, CRAP.

This time around the PS3 is coming after MS's console, Nintendo won't be close in terms of tech or at least let's think Nintendo is pulling our legs with the latest specs. If these specs are true though, the PS3 and the Xbox 360 has to impress where they are strong or supposedly so. The thing about the xbox1 is that despite all the talk of it's power most of it's best looking games did not run at 60 fps, the opposite is true for PS2. The weakness of the first box appears to be the very same for the second.

Hell! Carmack is saying physics won't take such a leap, why? he concentrates more on graphics than anything else. Ok Carmack, take heavy or next gen physics away from the xbox 360, what do we have so far, mostly 30fps and dipping 360 offerings. Did'nt Carmack say he'd rather see games running at 60 fps with current gen physics so to speak? Well sir, If you would rather take that route with the 360, be my guess. From my viewpoint AA is not free, Aniso is sorely missing on most 360 games, 60 fps is not the lane of familiarity to this machine. let's see if Carmack can pull all the stops on this machine, I'm actually waiting, I hope he does, but wait; the 360 also bares a multicore architecture. Did'nt Carmack ***** about that though? What gives? what effin gives?

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Don't even bother attempting to explain it Slade, you are just beating a dead horse!
Xbox is the be all end all!

I don't understand your point and Slades. Nobody is saying the 360 is the be all and end all. I think what everybody is saying is wait and see. I know you guys love Sony and believe all the hype, but given the failure of the PS2 HDD, the failed attempts at online gaming on PS2, the attempts and boasts that Sony's online will be just as good as LIVE out the door, the past hyped statements about the Emotion Engine, the failure of UMD movies(nobody has really taken Sony to task for that - hey come buy a PSP u can watch movies! now less than a year later that's history Hollywood pulled the plug), now the PS3 is not just gonna be better than 360 in physics calculation, it is going to rape, murder and pillage 360! Come on Jupiter you are more level headed than DeadBloke and TheLastNutlicker! I don't think anybody would have a problem and most people would agree that the PS3 will probably be stronger than the 360, and hey that's great it is also expected!

But to come here and say it is gonna rape and destroy with absolutely no proof when they can't even launch there system on time of course you are gonna run into a wall on System Wars.

The facts are these systems are both powerful and both can be exploited in a myriad of different ways, when it comes down to it, my guess is if a dev really wants to get something done they will find a way and it will be years before these systems are tapped. So yeah at this I believe the PS3 has greater processing power, possibly including physics, I still think the 360 may have the edge with the GPU or at least I like the architecture of the 360 GPU better. Overall with more processing power, better display rates, larger media, larger HDD(if included), an equal if not better GPU, and coming a year later the PS3 should be more powerful. Now we know it will cost at least $500 Euros according to Sony it is gonna be hella expensive, it better be more powerful. But rape, pillage, destroy order of magnitude better physics, I'd definitely have to see that to believe it. What did you think, we wuz gonna take Slade's word? Be real.

[slade]

LOL, I knew that when the argument got too much for TMG's little simian brain to handle, he'd resort to semantics.

All the BS talk we keep hearing about how crappy the EE is just that, CRAP.

You gotta give them their little bone to chew sometimes. Cell will be better utilized then the Emotion Engine since Sony has provided much better SDK's this time. This is also straight out of the mouth of developers but these guys aren't going to listen.

[Tappy_Tibbons]

Carmack is still the best for multiplayer. Gabe Newell is the best for single player...but geez, Cell Factor looks badass compared to anything I've seen on PS3...those physics are untouched by everything except Motor Storm.

[slade]

Cell Factor was a demo that Ageia ran to show off their PPU at the GDC. And although there is a game on X360 with that name, it isn't related to the Cell Factor vid currently circulating the net.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

LOL, I knew that when the argument got too much for TMG's little simian brain to handle, he'd resort to semantics.



You gotta give them their little bone to chew sometimes. Cell will be better utilized then the Emotion Engine since Sony has provided much better SDK's this time. This is also straight out of the mouth of developers but these guys aren't going to listen.

I don't blame you, before 360 came out I was piling through tech articles and posting much of the same stuff that was just posted in this thread. Talking about the hypothetical power of all the GPUs, how one of the three processors could be used for physics calculations. Interesting enough the physics performance is actually going to be relatively bad for both consoles because they both had the opportunity to include a separate physics chip and both companies passed on. So what you are doing is exactly what we did before 360 came out, hanging on everyword from every developer and devouring tech articles. Now do you really think any of us think you know what the hell you are talking about? You are just regurgitating some stuff you barely understand and you aren't the only one. Hey, there is nothing wrong with what you are doing, you've got nothing better to do. But fortunately there is no need for the rest of us to sit around and look for scraps of info to make us feel secure. We have nextgen games right now! There is no need to brag and boast because we can pop in a GRAW we can pop in an Oblivion.

PS3 can have the power advantage, but let's see if it has 5 or 6 90% rated games in 6 months. Let's see if it has an RPG or any game almost rated 95% in the first 6 months. So you keep up your lite reading, you only have about another 7 months to wait, that is if happen to get lucky enough to get a system. In the meantime just try and keep your enthusiasm each time you come across something that says, "PS3 it the BADDEST!" to yourself. We will see soon enough, and I wonder when the first 6 months of the PS3 are average and probably worse than the 360 what you will say, because you have left yourself NO room for a let-down. If 360 outperforms PS3 this fall in terms of games in order to have any shred of credibility you'd have to denounce the PS3 and swear you won't buy it until it delivers the hype! Of course we know you won't do any such thing you'll come in here rationalizing and giving excuses and then fall back to the old PS2 argument, "Well these are niche games, you'll never find them on 360!" Like I said before you've never been a physics and power guy before but now you can't wait. Seems like some long repressed longings for XBOX are starting to seep to the surface. Your facade has cracked and we know everything you stood for last generation was complete BS, well they now know, i've known all along.

[slade]

Hell, I'd just be happy if I didn't have to download a patch for almost every PS3 launch game. That'd make it a better launch then 360's, period.

And blah blah blah, don't your ever get tired of your own BS? Give it a rest, man. You're not fooling anyone since you came into this argument with the firm belief that you could refute the original article and then got b**ch slapped like nobody's business.

Edit: Actually, I posted this article for you because I thought you'd be interested in more realistic games. Sadly, you were just interested in your Xbox.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Hell, I'd just be happy if I didn't have to download a patch for almost every PS3 launch game. That'd make it a better launch then 360's, period.

And blah blah blah, don't your ever get tired of your own BS? Give it a rest, man. You're not fooling anyone since you came into this argument with the firm belief that you could refute the original article and then got b**ch slapped like nobody's business.

Edit: Actually, I posted this article for you because I thought you'd be interested in more realistic games. Sadly, you were just interested in your Xbox.

More red herrings. You take something like downloading a patch, which is actually quite simple and fast, and you make it seem like a major problem. Try download a patch for a PC game brotha there is the problem! Downloading patches on 360 is all of 1 to 3 minutes and then you just restart game, if that is a problem yeah the 360 is not for you. PS3 games I guess are gonna be perfect and never need a patch? My guess is if the devs aren't patching PS3 games its not cause the games are perfect, it is because they are too lazy to fix 'em or the infrastructure of the network and middleware won't allow it to be done easily.

Do I ever get tired of my BS, this is all your BS. You blurt out garbage then get upset and cry like the ho u are when someone refutes it with common sense. We both know the PS3 will be more powerful than 360, that is not BS. I believe the PS3 will be more powerful but based on the fact it takes successive generations to incrementally extract better performance I believe 360 will have the edge in tangible games for the first year for sure, and possibly the 2nd. Now, to you this is BS. Yet you come in here and say that the PS3 is going to rape murder and destroy the 360! And this is not BS? This is not baseless bragging?

So please stop, like I said you've got 7 months. This thread prompted me to look at what has been updated on the PS3 game previews and thus far my friend you look like an azz! Sure some games look great like Motorstorm, Warhawk, and the now Resistence Fall of Man, but other games look booty like Untold Legends, Smackdown, Fatal inertia, and another game i forget the name of. And nothing looks like it will be better than 360 games, aside from Motorstorm. But that doesn't mean Motorstorm can't be done on 360 or something similar. I don't see an Oblivion on the PS3, but that doesn't mean the PS3 is not capable, it just means no one had tried yet. So you are waaaaay to early with your braggart claims. I'm actually defending the PS3 from your idiotic fanboy hype. You are creating expectations that are just unrealistic and you are only going to end up letting yourself down and any fool like the LastWord who believes you.

Edit: I hope you are right and I hope Mark Rein is right, it would be a awesome if the PS3 is capable of being substantially more powerful than the 360 in terms of physics calculations. I don't know why you don't believe me when I say that, but that's you I guess. All i'm saying is that is a mighty big claim and given Sony's past performance, given the fact they passed on including a dedicated physics chip(as did MS) I just don't believe it. If it or any other aspect of the PS3 ends up being significantly better than the 360, I'll be the first to say 360 got "owned" and vice versa if PS3 fails to deliver. I just happen to believe based on what I've read both systems will be incredibly powerful and just about equal. I think the fact that they will be sharing so many games this generation spells that out. Resident Evil 5, Call of Duty 2, Splinter Cell 4 etc etc etc. So you mean the PS3 is going to be significantly better but these developers are holding back just to water the games down to favor Microsoft and not make the 360 look bad. Sorry Slade your argument doesn't hold up under scrutiny. But I still hope it is true, it just seems like fools gold this far out.

[slade]

Yeah, unfortunately, I'd rather not have to hook up my 360 to an ethernet every time I want an update. I only plan on doing it once in a while. It's far from a red herring. The matter is one of convenience and not all of us have the means or even the want for something like that. But I don't expect you to understand since you were comfortable with a big honking Xbox last gen.

Yet you come in here and say that the PS3 is going to rape murder and destroy the 360! And this is not BS? This is not baseless bragging?

No, that's you resorting to semantics again. Way to look beyond the obvious and besides, PS2 already murdered, raped and pillaged the original Xbox. Take a gander at the link in my sig again. :LOL:

[thelastword]

You gotta give them their little bone to chew sometimes. Cell will be better utilized then the Emotion Engine since Sony has provided much better SDK's this time. This is also straight out of the mouth of developers but these guys aren't going to listen.These guys will say anything and rehash the same useless arguments, even though they been proven wrong before. Sometimes you wonder though, even at the beginning of my post I declared that any dev who does not embrace change will be left behind to rot. This is not some biased logic, this is indeed true. The future of games programming is taking a corner, a very necessary one which will elevate gaming to new threshholds. If these MS junkies can't see that the best programming talent resides on the PS3, the games will have to the talking, yet again, as was done with the ps2.

Sony has better SDK's this time around, that is indeed true. What these guys can't understand (it may be hard for them), is that Sony is not rushing this launch. This will be a better planned and executed launch than that of the PS2. Here we had waco talking jacko about the PS3 compiler, ( it's not done yet says waco) bla! bla! bla! give me a break, these guys are beyond belief. The PS3 is several months away from launch and this guy wants to declare untold legends as the standard for PS3 games. Amazing isn't it, but all other games displayed that absolutely murders and rapes the 360's best is CG however. I'm tired of people saying it could be done on 360, lesser efforts are having problems running at good framerates on the machine, yet I should be convinced that their system could run a game like Lair or a game like motorstorm with full flair. I'm not denying the possibility entirely, maybe all these 360 devs are crappy programmers, eff that, I won't be so naive.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

These guys will say anything and rehash the same useless arguments, even though they been proven wrong before. Sometimes you wonder though, even at the beginning of my post I declared that any dev who does not embrace change will be left behind to rot. This is not some biased logic, this is indeed true. The future of games programming is taking a corner, a very necessary one which will elevate gaming to new threshholds. If these MS junkies can't see that the best programming talent resides on the PS3, the games will have to the talking, yet again, as was done with the ps2.

Sony has better SDK's this time around, that is indeed true. What these guys can't understand (it may be hard for them), is that Sony is not rushing this launch. This will be a better planned and executed launch than that of the PS2. Here we had waco talking jacko about the PS3 compiler, ( it's not done yet says waco) bla! bla! bla! give me a break, these guys are beyond belief. The PS3 is several months away from launch and this guy wants to declare untold legends as the standard for PS3 games. Amazing isn't it, but all other games displayed that absolutely murders and rapes the 360's best is CG however. I'm tired of people saying it could be done on 360, lesser efforts are having problems running at good framerates on the machine, yet I should be convinced that their system could run a game like Lair or a game like motorstorm with full flair. I'm not denying the possibility entirely, maybe all these 360 devs are crappy programmers, eff that, I won't be so naive.


If you guys belief this far out that the PS3 is going to rape and murder 360 in physics and if LastWord believes that 360 devs are going to be left to rot and that the PS3 developers are going to ELEVATE gaming to new thresholds then you are free to believe what you want. At some point both of these systems are going to for a short period of time excel beyond the PC, then the PC will eventually come back and overlap them again. Obviously you guys believe that PS3 is going to hit the ground running and radically change everything. Well guess what LastWord, I sincerely hope that happens. But I do not understand how you can be upset because we don't share your enthusiasm.

You keep talking about how the 360 was rushed and you aren't impressed with the games and its a problem because the games show framerate stutters. Guess what, even powerful PC have framerate stutters. So if I am to understand this correctly you must not think the PS3 is going to suffer framerate problems and Slade thinks these incredibly complex games won't have to be patched! Wow, what else is the PS3 gonna do will it walk the dog?

You guys are on cloud 9 right now and I can see there is no middle ground for either of you. But please promise me that you two will stick around because we simply must compare notes when the PS3 launches. And I know you guys don't think there is any possible way you can be wrong, but if you wrong if we get two total eclipses in the same year, if pigs fly, will you guys at least admit you were wrong?

Oh and lastword how can you criticize the 360 because it is not getting Motorstorm? Criticize the developer for not bringing it to the 360. And yes Motorstorm looks great but let's see if it can make to store shelves and still be that impressive. How the PS3 is still an egg, but you guys have already counted it as a chicken way before its hatched! This is gonna be funny 7 months later. "Remember when Slade said PS3 was gonna murder and rape and destroy 360!"

I'm done I guess you guys have your beliefs and its nothing wrong with keepin' tha faith! Go Sony!

[Gadfly2317]

These guys will say anything and rehash the same useless arguments, even though they been proven wrong before. Sometimes you wonder though, even at the beginning of my post I declared that any dev who does not embrace change will be left behind to rot. This is not some biased logic, this is indeed true. The future of games programming is taking a corner, a very necessary one which will elevate gaming to new threshholds. If these MS junkies can't see that the best programming talent resides on the PS3, the games will have to the talking, yet again, as was done with the ps2.

Sony has better SDK's this time around, that is indeed true. What these guys can't understand (it may be hard for them), is that Sony is not rushing this launch. This will be a better planned and executed launch than that of the PS2. Here we had waco talking jacko about the PS3 compiler, ( it's not done yet says waco) bla! bla! bla! give me a break, these guys are beyond belief. The PS3 is several months away from launch and this guy wants to declare untold legends as the standard for PS3 games. Amazing isn't it, but all other games displayed that absolutely murders and rapes the 360's best is CG however. I'm tired of people saying it could be done on 360, lesser efforts are having problems running at good framerates on the machine, yet I should be convinced that their system could run a game like Lair or a game like motorstorm with full flair. I'm not denying the possibility entirely, maybe all these 360 devs are crappy programmers, eff that, I won't be so naive.

It's not just system power, it's whether a company is going to take the time and money to make the most of the hardware. Big budget titles get riskier and riskier.

And since when does having the "lesser hardware" matter to a Sony fan? Didn't deter your enjoyment of Ps2 did it? And remember all the complaints of multiplats being programmed to the lowest common denominator? Any graphical or AI edge the Ps3 can do will be mitigated by the fact that most games this time around will be multi-plat.

And finally, it really is about games. Sony's franchises have gotten pretty musty-stale. MGS and Gran Turismo. . . meh. 360's big-budget titles are a lot more vital. Ninja Gaiden 2, man.

And what's this about Ps2 exclusives like Culdcept migrating to 360 with Live functionality? It was those little works of art (where design supercedes horse power) that were keeping me on the fence, but if they are gonna be on the 360 too, what the hell is the need to wait for the Ps3 launch?

Too Human comes out in the Fall? Live Arcade and Oblivion right now? Culdecpt Live better than the second coming of christ? By the time the Ps3 is getting in gear (2008-2009) and IF the 360's niche and Japanese support fizzles-out because no one in America buys anything but racers and shooters. . . .well, you can always trade it in for a Ps3 at that time (after it's undergone a couple price cuts.)

[slade]

Ninja Gaiden 2 will be out when the 360 support in Japan has already fizzled. Itagaki's got DOA Volleyball and Code Chronus scheduled before it. Look for Ninja Gaiden 2 some time in 2008 or perhaps 2009. We'll have at least five action games from Capcom that Itagaki can try ripping off by then.

Too Human, I've reconsidered after reading about it online this morning. Apparently EGM did a feature article on it and interviewed Dennis Dyack. According to him, the combat breaks down like this:

Left stick moves
- Right stick attacks
- A jumps
- Right stick and left stick combine to make more varied moves

Go here to read more: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3073746&postcount=93

That's practically the combat system from Rise to Honor, that Jet Li game made by Sony a couple years back. This isn't going to redefine any action games. In fact, this lowers my enthusiasm for this supposed God of War killer since it seems to have an even worse combat system.

As for Culdecept, it'll probably be on PS3 as well if only to rake in the Japanese audience that the 360 title won't.

[slade]

These guys will say anything and rehash the same useless arguments, even though they been proven wrong before.

What's really ironic is that they will believe every negative thing a developer ever said about PS2 but not any of the positive things that have been said about the PS3.

[Jupiter_x]

I don't understand your point and Slades. Nobody is saying the 360 is the be all and end all.

Ok I was being a bit of a dick there but I just noticed all the Xbox guys jumping in and gang raping Slade and Last "W". I like a good arguement but this is just retarded!


I think what everybody is saying is wait and see. I know you guys love Sony and believe all the hype
.....and you are right, Most milkers eat that hype and rub it in the face of the Xbox guys, but I am not one to buy into hype, I like Playstation and what they offer....that's it! I personally think PS3 is getting too much hype infact. Over-hype tends to kill things (Starwars anyone?)





but given the failure of the PS2 HDD, the failed attempts at online gaming on PS2, the attempts and boasts that Sony's online will be just as good as LIVE out the door, the past hyped statements about the Emotion Engine, the failure of UMD movies(nobody has really taken Sony to task for that - hey come buy a PSP u can watch movies! now less than a year later that's history Hollywood pulled the plug)

Yes PSP was hyped....supposed DS killer....and I even bought into it. Funny tho, the other day I just turfed my PSP and snagged a electric blue DS with Metroid w00t. PSP was a let down, games felt rushed and bland. I liked the Homebrew factor...but for $300? Nope!

I don't care much for online gaming personally and Sony "Online is fine for my needs! HD? That was a joke...yes!




Now the PS3 is not just gonna be better than 360 in physics calculation, it is going to rape, murder and pillage 360! Come on Jupiter you are more level headed than DeadBloke and TheLastNutlicker! I don't think anybody would have a problem and most people would agree that the PS3 will probably be stronger than the 360, and hey that's great it is also expected!

All in all that is false, PS3 will not Rape the 360 in any way shape or form! The geek in me studied all the details in terms of power and capabilities of Xbox's love child. This machine is and will be incredible. I trust what ATI/IBM brought to the table this round and thinking back to what Gamecube pushed out and being technically inferior in almost every way to Xbox. Power PC architecture is no push over, it is not one to be Fuct with! Xbox 360 is infested with it and this is Next gen Power PC arch. Honestly I don't see how PS3 is really all that much stronger. In fact, I'll boldly admit that considering what I know and what I remember from Gamecubes raw power. 360 could in fact be out do PS3!


The facts are these systems are both powerful and both can be exploited in a myriad of different ways, when it comes down to it, my guess is if a dev really wants to get something done they will find a way and it will be years before these systems are tapped. So yeah at this I believe the PS3 has greater processing power, possibly including physics, I still think the 360 may have the edge with the GPU or at least I like the architecture of the 360 GPU better. Overall with more processing power, better display rates, larger media, larger HDD(if included), an equal if not better GPU, and coming a year later the PS3 should be more powerful. Now we know it will cost at least $500 Euros according to Sony it is gonna be hella expensive, it better be more powerful. But rape, pillage, destroy order of magnitude better physics, I'd definitely have to see that to believe it. What did you think, we wuz gonna take Slade's word? Be real.

Halo 3 will look as good as Killzone/MGS4! Hey I might drink that Milk but I am not stupid! I still have not seen bump/normal mapping that outclasses the first Halo, not even Halo 2! Halo and the sequel were extremely impressive games, above and beyond anything at the time and still has. Mustering that much out of a 733 with mod GF3 chip?.......uh Halo 3 is going to Rape alot of pretty little games out there soon!



In the end, I am a milkdrinker and N-kitty by heart! I like most of what Playstation/Ninty deliver. PSP? Smoke and mirrors my friends! What a shame! Yet 360 is no slouch, I've seen it, played it and liked it! Do I want one? Only if PS3 turns out like PSP did!

[Jupiter_x]

Hell! the xbox is dead and still the PS2's graphics are improving and getting better with GOW2 and many more. So yes, PS2 devs have been ushered into multicore programming, they have excelled at it based on their results and they are now ready to outclass lazy and backward thinking devs in this multicore era

Valid Point! I never really thought of it that way. PS2 is improving still. I found with PS2 that the visuals have improved slowly over the last 6 years. Unlike Xbox and like in my last statment, Halo was a release game and still (In some cases) looks better future releases. Xbox delivered some mighty impressive visuals to start with but seemed to remain that way without much improvement over time. Some games like Splinter Cell CT and Ninja Gaiden have risen above but the gap is not as big as PS2's launch titles compared to they have now!

[thelastword]

But I do not understand how you can be upset because we don't share your enthusiasm.
Don't go there. We are talking about the capabilities of the machine, don't you think that we could take some notes on the 360's performance right now? It has now received it's second batch of games. Still the industry and gamers at large are impressed with the games that Sony has displayed and are excited with the advances relative to physics and graphics that they have made. Why can't the 360 games excite gamers like the PS3 demo's? It's because there's nothing substantially next gen or different about the 360 games.

At least Sony is trying to push physics tech with the PS3, You watch Motorstorm and it excites you, you want to play that. Warhawk looks like it will be a blast especially multiplayer, Lair's graphics are unparalled at the moment. One way or the other, the PS3 is ushering it's support, not based on hype but on the games. The same can be said for the PS2, it's not because of hype that the PS2 murdered the competition, it was because of the games. Exciting games, games that are fun and diverse, not another gun sim or an underperforming port. Unique games, games that make you go wow. As a matter of fact the car model sprayed with bullets at the GDC, where we witnessed it's deformation is a GT5 in game model, go look at some videos of the GDC and tell me that the 360 comes close. What a shame though, these models and gameplay elements were stripped off the main games just to show the advances of true next gen. E3 will reveal all.



You keep talking about how the 360 was rushed and you aren't impressed with the games and its a problem because the games show framerate stutters. Guess what, even powerful PC have framerate stutters. So if I am to understand this correctly you must not think the PS3 is going to suffer framerate problems and Slade thinks these incredibly complex games won't have to be patched! Wow, what else is the PS3 gonna do will it walk the dog?

The 360 is a closed box, it's more powerful right now than any top of the line PC, errrrhhhh! sorry, (it should be), so don't try that one. Pc games stutter if you don't have the necessary hardware or if the game is unoptimized, in the case of the latter patches sometimes resolve such issues. I expect to have stuttering framerates at the end of the 360's cycle, not at the beginning, can you get that into your puny brain? Don't be such a believer of the MS machine when the games speak differently. If we have framerate problems this early, tell me, what do you expect when Unreal Engine 4 comes along or maybe Crysis and Crysis 2. You do the math, I don't think the 360 is as complex and beefy of an architecture for futuristic performances boosts as the PS3. What we're getting now are nothing more but Current Gen PC graphics with no AA and no Aniso yet still framerates stutters abound. Draw your own conclusions then.


Oh and lastword how can you criticize the 360 because it is not getting Motorstorm? Criticize the developer for not bringing it to the 360.

Well seeing how the WRC series never made it to the XBOX, I'm not so sure about that. Evolution Studios is a Sony Second Party, but if anybody can convince them of putting motorstorm on the 360 I believe it's you my friend.

[slade]

And finally, it really is about games. Sony's franchises have gotten pretty musty-stale. MGS and Gran Turismo. . . meh. 360's big-budget titles are a lot more vital. Ninja Gaiden 2, man.

GT maybe but MGS has become a critical media darling. Note that when MGS3 Subsistence came out, it outscored the original version of MGS3 on many sites despite being the same game with a couple of fixes that came a year and a half after the original. In terms of critical praise, MGS is more popular then ever and it has gone online unlike GT. So MGS4 being only on PS3 is a major coup.

And Sony is bringing out plenty of new IP's and dusting off some of their older works. There's, Lair, Resistance, MotorStorm, Heavenly Sword, Warhawk which just scratches the surface of the announced projects. There is still whatever next gen project Naughty Dog is working on, whatever project the team that made ICO and Shadow of the Colossus unveil and of course third party IP's from the usual Publishers. We'll likely find out more details at E3.

[Gadfly2317]

GT maybe but MGS has become a critical media darling. Note that when MGS3 Subsistence came out, it outscored the original version of MGS3 on many sites despite being the same game with a couple of fixes that came a year and a half after the original. In terms of critical praise, MGS is more popular then ever and it has gone online unlike GT. So MGS4 being only on PS3 is a major coup.

And Sony is bringing out plenty of new IP's and dusting off some of their older works. There's, Lair, Resistance, MotorStorm, Heavenly Sword, Warhawk which just scratches the surface of the announced projects. There is still whatever next gen project Naughty Dog is working on, whatever project the team that made ICO and Shadow of the Colossus unveil and of course third party IP's from the usual Publishers. We'll likely find out more details at E3.

Well, to be fair, I was just talking about myself in this instance. I just have no interest in MGS anymore, or sneaking around in general. I'm sure the Ps3 will have some glorious games. Heavenly Sword has held appeal for me since it was first announced. Both systems will have some heavy hitting originals, I just kinda liked the Xbox big-budget exclusives better for the most part, and liked the Ps2 for the little odditties. That's why I was fence sitting but leaning Ps3, because the little games are more important to me than the big budget graphics-fests.

But I believe I'm at a tipping point here with Culdcept coming to 360 Live. It's one of my fave games, period. And 360 has some good, if a bit rehashed stuff now like PG3, a great game in Oblivion, twitch stuff on Live Arcade, I love the controller.

I'm not feeling any anti-Ps3 feeling, it's just the 360 may have finally convinced me there's enough there for me, and whatever the Ps3 may eventually have, well, that's far enough down the road I'm sure I'll be plenty busy in the meantime.

[thelastword]

It's not just system power, it's whether a company is going to take the time and money to make the most of the hardware. Big budget titles get riskier and riskier.
Yes they do, but Sony first party devs have always maxed out their console including second and some elite third parties.


And since when does having the "lesser hardware" matter to a Sony fan? Didn't deter your enjoyment of Ps2 did it? And remember all the complaints of multiplats being programmed to the lowest common denominator? Any graphical or AI edge the Ps3 can do will be mitigated by the fact that most games this time around will be multi-plat.

It matters only because Sony fans know that the software support has increased and not lessened. The same devs that supported the PS2 will support the PS3. As for multiplats, the PS2 was the platform where most multiplats had it's development roots, however, the PS3 will be the platform where multiplats have it's development roots. The PS2 is considered to be weaker this gen but the PS3 is considered to be stronger next gen. It's a no brainer that multiplats will be dumbed down for the 360. I think when Fight Night, Need for speed (next gen) and burnout debuts on the PS3 we will witness that first hand.


And finally, it really is about games. Sony's franchises have gotten pretty musty-stale. MGS and Gran Turismo. . . meh. 360's big-budget titles are a lot more vital. Ninja Gaiden 2, man. Says who? stale to you. PGR3 did not light up the charts, I guarantee you that GT5 will sell close to 10 million copies worldwide. Ninja Gaiden 2 might be a great game, but it's only one game. GOW3 and DMC4 will have something to say including Heavenly Sword. E3 will reveal more action exclusives for sure. 360 like it's older brother will yet again be outclassed in terms Volume+Quality, now that's a deadly mixture.


And what's this about Ps2 exclusives like Culdcept migrating to 360 with Live functionality? It was those little works of art (where design supercedes horse power) that were keeping me on the fence, but if they are gonna be on the 360 too, what the hell is the need to wait for the Ps3 launch?

Come on Badfly, do you think that games like culdcept will be exclusive to the 360? For what? so that it could sell 5 staggering copies worldwide. Do you think that all of a sudden that games like disgaea,rez and amplitude will be a thing of thing of the pass on the Sony Machine? I'm really looking forward to some games in the vein of JSRF, I really loved that game on the xbox. I would also love to see what level 5 could do with their artstlye on the PS3 at 1080p.


Too Human comes out in the Fall? Live Arcade and Oblivion right now? Culdecpt Live better than the second coming of christ? By the time the Ps3 is getting in gear (2008-2009) and IF the 360's niche and Japanese support fizzles-out because no one in America buys anything but racers and shooters. . . .well, you can always trade it in for a Ps3 at that time (after it's undergone a couple price cuts.)

Too Human is the only trailer that impressed me for the 360. I hope what I saw was realtime for the 360's sake. It looks good from what I've seen, let's hope it shapes up nicely.

Oblivion is a great game by all indications, but it is also available for the PC. That means that it has a split userbase. I'm not sure how many 360's it has sold or will sell but it is no system pusher as such IMO.

[Superior Beatslayer]

You guys are just in denial of the facts. Could the Xbox or the Gc have done a Zone of the Enders 2 just as it was on the PS2. The burnout series on the ps2 has superior lighting and particle effects than all of the other consoles including the recent port to the 360.

Facts? there aint no facts supporting this bull****, boy. This is completely absurd, and you my friend, are an idiot....to think multiplat game would look best on PS2 HA! everyone knows the Xbox ports had enhanced everything, and to try and throw the 360 into that mix is mind boggling.

[slade]

everyone knows the Xbox ports had enhanced everything, and to try and throw the 360 into that mix is mind boggling.

No, that's just another piece of misinformation that gets thrown around as fact.

[Gadfly2317]

It matters only because Sony fans know that the software support has increased and not lessened. The same devs that supported the PS2 will support the PS3. Probably, but then again, it's all about profit. Rev and DS could well eat into Sony's guts in Japan, and there's zero doubt that 360 is going to eat more share in America than Xbox did. The point for me is that more companies are supporting 360 this time than last time. That's a plus any way you look at it.

As for multiplats, the PS2 was the platform where most multiplats had it's development roots, however, the PS3 will be the platform where multiplats have it's development roots. Eventually, but being a year behind, virtually all the multiplats are currently starting out their life on 360 with eventual Ps3 ports.



Says who? stale to you. PGR3 did not light up the charts, I guarantee you that GT5 will sell close to 10 million copies worldwide. Ninja Gaiden 2 might be a great game, but it's only one game. GOW3 and DMC4 will have something to say including Heavenly Sword. E3 will reveal more action exclusives for sure. 360 like it's older brother will yet again be outclassed in terms Volume+Quality, now that's a deadly mixture. Yep, stale to me. GOW3? GOW2 isn't even out yet. Ninja Gaiden 2 is only one game. Too Human is only one game. Pinata is only one game. Oblivion is only one game. I don't think Volume + Quality will be in shortage on either system. . . there will be more games on either than I'll have time to play as an adult gamer with a busy life. It boils down to the titles with the most appeal. And with the most appealing big-name titles (to me) plus the recent revleation that Culdcept is coming. . . .I mean, come on. It's hard not to want one.



Come on Badfly, do you think that games like culdcept will be exclusive to the 360? For what? so that it could sell 5 staggering copies worldwide. Do you think that all of a sudden that games like disgaea,rez and amplitude will be a thing of thing of the pass on the Sony Machine? I seriously doubt Culdcept will remain exclusive to 360. Since 360 doesn't seem to be able to sell in Japan, and since Culdcept's biggest following is Japanese, I expect we'll see the game. . . . on THE REV. Or maybe the Ps3. But seriously, the Ps3 has challenges. The DS has heralded a rennaisance for Nintendo, and I still feel it's possible that the Revolution will be hot as hell in Japan, and with lower development costs, you could see some of these things like Nippon Ichi and Bandai bail, or at least branch out from Sony. I mean hell, Bandai doing the 360 speaks volumes.

I would also love to see what level 5 could do with their artstlye on the PS3 at 1080p. My TV only goes up to 1080i. Oh well.


Oblivion is a great game by all indications, but it is also available for the PC. That means that it has a split userbase. I'm not sure how many 360's it has sold or will sell but it is no system pusher as such IMO. The RAM and new graphics card would set me back more than the 360, and my PC doesn't need upgraded for anything else I use it for. Hate to be a hypocrite. . .I've always used the argument too, and if my PC could already run Oblivion, yes, that would be one more reason I wouldn't need a 360.

Look, I could flip-flop back tomorrow, and I've still got some Ps2 stuff to finish up (being the last console I picked up this gen.) Though the Live Culdcept thing kinda has given me whiplash as I turned my head to give 360 a whole new look, I still will likely wait until the smoke of this year's E3 clears, but based on all available info at the moment, the Ps3 is going to be expensive, won't be out until late this year, will probably be hard to get, and much of it's library that I might want will be on 360, or might not be out until 2008 or 2009.

And I see Zero evidence the Ps3 has significantly better graphics. Almost everything shown so far has been pre-rendered, not in game. Regardless, based on my slobbering anticpation of Nintendo's Revolution, you should know already that any graphical advantages don't count that much with me.

[thelastword]

Facts? there aint no facts supporting this bull****, boy. This is completely absurd, and you my friend, are an idiot....to think multiplat game would look best on PS2 HA! everyone knows the Xbox ports had enhanced everything, and to try and throw the 360 into that mix is mind boggling.The PS2 does have lighting features not available to the xbox's versions of burnout 3 and burnout revenge. You must have been high when all the reviews came out, they're still available, go read them you stooge. These same lighting effects are also not present in the 360 port, but the 360 version does sport better textures etc..which is expected. That's why I mentioned ZOE2 because it takes advantage of the PS2's strength, amazing particle and lighting effects. I won't bother to get quotes or show you videos, you are a fool to believe all multiplats were superior on the xbox.

[thelastword]

Probably, but then again, it's all about profit. Rev and DS could well eat into Sony's guts in Japan, and there's zero doubt that 360 is going to eat more share in America than Xbox did. The point for me is that more companies are supporting 360 this time than last time. That's a plus any way you look at it.

Eventually, but being a year behind, virtually all the multiplats are currently starting out their life on 360 with eventual Ps3 ports.
The difference between the xbox and the 360 is that there were games that I wanted to play just after the launch. Games like; Halo, JSRF,Sega Gt and DOA3 were my first purchases for the system. This time around, most of the games available to the MS machine are also available on the PC. Oblivion and COD2 are on the PC, GRAW,CONDEMNED are on their way as well. The numerous ports like QUAKE 4, NFSMW all run in superior form at higher resolutions on the PC (and of course with specs below that of the 360). This is why the 360 has not impressed me.


Yep, stale to me. GOW3? GOW2 isn't even out yet. Ninja Gaiden 2 is only one game. Too Human is only one game. Pinata is only one game. Oblivion is only one game. I don't think Volume + Quality will be in shortage on either system. . . there will be more games on either than I'll have time to play as an adult gamer with a busy life. It boils down to the titles with the most appeal. And with the most appealing big-name titles (to me) plus the recent revleation that Culdcept is coming. . . .I mean, come on. It's hard not to want one.

Yes GOW2 is not out yet, but do you doubt that GOW3 is in the works for the PS3? To be honest, I'm not even sure if Ninja Gaiden will be exclusive to the 360. As for Ninja Gaiden being only one game, I was referring to action games, that's why I mentioned GOW3, DMC4 and HEAVENLY SWORD on the PS3. So Pinata really impresses you huh? but do you think this game will move systems? now that's the question, especially since you made mention of potential mass appeal for the said titles. I want to remind you, that despite NG being a great game it only sold about 500,000 copies. Compare that with titles that proved that they had appeal, then this game becomes dwarfed. GOW and DMC are all better selling games than NG despite there being a number of good action alternatives on the PS2.


I seriously doubt Culdcept will remain exclusive to 360. Since 360 doesn't seem to be able to sell in Japan, and since Culdcept's biggest following is Japanese, I expect we'll see the game. . . . on THE REV. Or maybe the Ps3. But seriously, the Ps3 has challenges. The DS has heralded a rennaisance for Nintendo, and I still feel it's possible that the Revolution will be hot as hell in Japan, and with lower development costs, you could see some of these things like Nippon Ichi and Bandai bail, or at least branch out from Sony. I mean hell, Bandai doing the 360 speaks volumes.

These are small companies Gadfly, they have to find ways to keep their cash flowing, that does'nt mean that all of sudden their allegiance is with MS and that the poor playstation is forsaken. I know yo