360 Is A Joke. [Archive] - VideoGameReview Forums

thelastword

09-21-2005, 07:27 AM

It's getting clearer and clearer in my mind and I guess to many others that the xbox 360 is nothing more than a technical stooge next to the towering giant that is PS3. Time and time again Sony destroys this feeble console, and sadly it's 90-95% playable games looks so this gen an lacklustre to Sony's stellar, jaw dropping Showings so far.

At E3 MS unveiled their system, they showed a couple of games, out of these, the most impressive ones were GeOW and PGR3 and even those look underwhelming next to PS3 games. Why? The sony execs stepped in, wowed gamers with their superior specs, showed Killzone and the deed was done. Spectators reaction was like this " the show has just ended folks, pack your bags, there's nothing more to see here, we know now when the next gen begins. It's definitely not in NOVEMBER but sprin 2006. That was the reaction was'nt it, That show belonged to Sony, SIMPLE AND TRUE.

Now we've just experienced TGS, and I must say if you were a 360 fan before, you must be feeling dejected right now. WHY you say? What did MS have to show for it's system? An underwhelming Gears of War, dipping way below 30 fps on effing final dev kits. Yes and that's the 360's best game you know, one sharing eerily similar gameplay elements to KILLSWITCH on current platforms, run for cover and then shoot, run for cover some more and then shoot. No MR GEAR!, you won't advance to the next level unless you get to that rock for cover, boring gameplay and level progression.

What did Sony have to show? They simply came in plopped in MGS4 and again that was it, That was the effin SHOWSTOPPER. The show once again belonged to Sony. The cover story of every gamesite was MGS4, Forums are still abuzz with this very subject and I definitely did'nt miss the countless threads on more populated and bustling forums. Even now It's still the rage, and funny, I've even read some threads of converted xbox fanatics to the Sony realm courtesy of MGS4. I don't know if any of you have seen the HD video of MGS4, but i got my hand on a 4 minute trailer off Ruliweb and frankly this game owns, it blows away everything on the 360 with much wind to spare. Amazing dust and particle effects, brilliant lighting, top notch animation and you know what it will get much much better than this according to Kojima San. Yes folks! it was running at a solid frame rate on PS3 beta kits.

IF Ms can't impress with games running on final kits, when the eff are they going to impress? Isn't it their time to shine? two months away from launch. Have any one seen the new GTVision trailer, the car at the beginning of that trailer is one rendered by the GT5 engine and the rest of the trailer was a touched up GT4 conceptualizing the plan for GT5, Yeah! even that blows pgr3 out of the water, amazing stuff really 20+ cars on screen with that much detail is simply brilliant. And I must say after watching this I did play the PGR3 trailer to see how it compares, it made me realize that really is not be much of a contest here. Talking about racers, The HiDef trailer for F1 on the Ps3 had the same effect on me as GTVISION, It's quite amazing that a console not even complete yet is already outdoing a console in it's finality.

It's clear that MS is under the gun, actually being plomped silly at every turn. I wish they would contest but sadly they're not, perhaps they cannot is what I've concluded seeing how the PS3 is so overwhelming to them so far from it's launch. Hence! the lamentations of Moore, sounding like one crying in the wilderness because of OHHH! the unbearable load. Honestly, Peter Moore would kill to have a MGS game on the Xbox 360, Splinter Cell is just not in the same bracket as metal gear and can never generate the hype and anticipation like a MG game, People have nothing but acclaim and respect for Kojima and it shows. The multiplat Splinter Cell does not entertain like a Kojima game, It's cold and dry, no story to speak of, it just doe'nt raise a vein. Graphics has been good, but they don't make a game fun to play.

Ms must realize that they've messed up, I mean 60+ kiosks at the TGS and no one really interested in playing those games? It must be because they were sub par and paled in comparison to Sony's showing, which of course was less in quantity than MS. Weeks before the TGS Sony had already declared that playable games would be featured at the GDC in January and E3 in O6. what is the plan behind that? Sony wants to leave no doubt in people minds that the 360 is XBOX 1.5 compared to their system, so they're awaiting final kits to be distributed next month before they show any playable stuff. Tactical and wise planning if you ask me, If final 360 dev kits can't match ps3 graphics on 2.4ghz, 7800 GTX's how in the eff will it do so against a 3.2ghz PPC with 7effing SPE's and the RSX.

The animation, physics and framerate of ps3 games are head and shoulders above 360 showings and recently Guerilla Games did indicate that Killzone was running in studio with the same authenticity as what was shown at E3, but now with a much better framerate than the 5fps which they were able to achieve prior to that. So PS3 development is coming along, To those who believe that PS3 is hard to program for are idiots, Watch what Kojima was able to accomplish just 4mths after E3, enough to blow the 360 out of the water. Don't be Naive kids, 360 games have been in development for ages, it seems to me that DEVs are already coming across limitations of the 360 hardware and or that the tri core is really a B**CH to program for, I believe it's both to be quite honest.

Quote from a Multiplat Dev
Uchida: Rumble Roses Creator
GI: Have you had a chance to mess around with the PlayStation 3 yet?

Uchida: Yes, it’s amazing. And just because I am working on the Xbox 360, doesn’t mean I will never work on the PS3. I have not converted. Its not like the PS3 is an enemy.

GI: What do you think you could pull off on one system that you could not on another?

Uchida: I think there are some things you can do with the PS3 than you cannot with the 360. The processing speed is much quicker. The rendering variation that the PS3 offers is wider. But the online of the 360 is amazing and is probably better than the PS3.http://gameinformer.com/News/Story/200509/N05.0916.2039.01789.htm

Gadfly2317

09-21-2005, 07:38 AM

Mochan

09-21-2005, 08:13 AM

The Rev was the real show stopper IMO, but it's quite clear that MGS4 was also a major force. Certainly far more than anything MS was able to show.

The boms were MGS4, the Revvie controller, and Gears of War. Of the three, GeOW was the poorest showing as far as I can tell.

Haven't the Metal Gear games been selling fewer copies with each new version? Didn't Metal Gear 3 do worse than Metal Gear 2? The

I don't know about sales figures but that is certainly how I felt about the series. I mean, I loved Metal Gear and even Snake's Revenge on the FamiCom and when we got to MGS on PS1 it was uber. MGS2 though was less than spectacular and I couldn't even bring myself to finish MGS3.

Well we'll see how MGS4 goes.

I don't see them doing anything that couldn't be done on existing systems--they will mostly only do the same things with some better graphics, AI and physics.

Better AI and Physics is a big thing IMO. Better AI will be what real next-gen is about, IMO. Cutting edge AI will allow us to experience games that are far more reactive than anything we have played before.

I'm not just talking about little improvements like enemy soldiers turning over tables and shooting from behind cover when the firefight begins. I'm talking about AI that reacts intelligently to the world and what's happening. However which way Oblivion's Radiant AI and Stalker's behavioral AI works is what I am talking about. Oblivion has NPCs who will steal from other NPCs not as part of a script, but as part of an AI routine when it tells them they need more money to buy food, etc.

Better physics will also allow for more reactive worlds. At first it will be the obvious thing... kicking a barrel will make it bounce up etc. etc. but as we go along we will see the end of scripted pre-made animations and instead see 3D models et al reacting "on the fly."

Have any of you heard of Spore? You create your organisms and the game generates all their movements and animations on the fly based on your design. That's only the beginning; as devs get more sophisticated we may soon see more applications of this, maybe for instance a fighting game where the attacks are not pre-rendered animations but rather real-time calculated movements which clash with the opponent's real time calcs.

I think physics should not be discounted as a strong next-gen driver.

Mochan

09-21-2005, 08:18 AM

BTW does anyone have a link to the hi-res video for MGS4 and for GOW for that matter? I don't have hi-res versions yet.

slade

09-21-2005, 08:58 AM

The Revolution controller is overrated and until we see some practical usage of this thing, it's not even close to being what it proclaims itself to be. Some of the possibilities I've heard though make it sound retarded such as using motion control in fighting games. Forget the fact that you would have to switch to first person for this to be even halfway effective and even then, it's not what I want out of fighting games. Looking at the controller though, one thing is obviously clear, Nintendo is alienating certain genres so that they can prop up their own games. That is not the pedigree of a well rounded console and third party developers are not going to hamstring themselves trying to compensate for Nintendo's weird way of thinking. Couple that with the fact that Nintendo doesn't wield the same type of influence in the console market that they do in the handheld market and you've got a recipe for another GC like disaster. Only with lesser multiplat games this time, if that's even possible. I know I don't want to go through another Nintendo console where at every turn they announce more support for their handhelds then they do for their home consoles.

Gadfly2317

09-21-2005, 09:06 AM

Better AI and Physics is a big thing IMO. Better AI will be what real next-gen is about, IMO. Cutting edge AI will allow us to experience games that are far more reactive than anything we have played before.

I'm all for that; I don't mean to trivialize that, but I don't see why the Rev won't also be delivering much better AI and graphics AND a way more innovative experience because of the jump forward in hardware design.

You are pretty techinical. The thing with AI, what is it specifically about the processing power that is going to make AI better? Isn't AI basically about what you've programmed? I mean, better tech or not, isn't it going take a lot of sophistication and research on the part of programmers to write better AI. . . and not just more processing power? As far as AI, the AI in Nintendogs seems really sophisticated, which made me wonder how reliant on processing power AI really is.

I definitely didn't mean to undervalue AI--I like interacting with artificial worlds like Animal Crossing which had some interesting AI, but on a system that relies on Live and pushing the subscription live experience, how much incentive do most developers really have to sink time and money into AI?

thelastword

09-21-2005, 09:07 AM

As I've been saying all along, A next gen optical drive is key for the next gen, these systems will be pushing milliions upon millions more pixels in the hi-def era. It seems more and more the Devs are coming to this realization first Itagaki San and now Mark Rein Vp of Epic games.

Here's what he had to say on next gen game capacity.

Unreal Tournament was 6GB compressed. Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we're going to fit them on DVD9's I don't know, they'll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we're going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks. So, online isn't really the best option in some instances.
Downloading 30Gb isn't really feasible. What online could be, is the back-channel to get additional content. Patches and things like that. I think what Valve has done is great. It'll be interesting to see where marketing fits in. Now they're going with EA in the future, the biggest publisher of all. You can't do one without the other, otherwise no-one knows about your game. Unless you have the huge marketing budgets that major retailers have when launching your game, so I think there's still a very important role for retailers.
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/r/?http://www.computerandvideogames.com/news/news_story.php(que)id=125925

Mochan Here's a link to the hidef trailer I have of MGS4, It's not the full 9 minutes, but trust me these 4 minutes will suffice.

http://222.122.42.71/tgs/hdv/ruliweb_hdv_mgs4_shot.wmv (http://222.122.42.71/tgs/hdv/ruliweb_hdv_mgs4_shot.wmv)

For the gears of war trailer, you can find it at gametrailers.com, just go to TGS media on the left.

Gadfly2317

09-21-2005, 09:09 AM

Looking at the controller though, one thing is obviously clear, Nintendo is alienating certain genres so that they can prop up their own games.
I'm not sure how this is the case since Rev also includes a traditional controller shell; it seems like if anything, they are simply offering more options and types of games (like finally a console that can also do RTS games) rather than limiting and excluding genres.

slade

09-21-2005, 09:13 AM

I'm not sure how this is the case since Rev also includes a traditional controller shell; it seems like if anything, they are simply offering more options and types of games (like finally a console that can also do RTS games) rather than limiting and excluding genres.

Not sold on that. The shell could primarily just be for GC backwards compatibility meaning that Wavebird mockup from IGN may not be too far off. In that case, you still have the handicap with certain genres such as fighting games.

slade

09-21-2005, 09:13 AM

What Rein said immediately puts the 360 on a lesser footing then the PS3. Their DVD9's are only capable of holding 7GB's or so, so the really large multiplat games like maybe the next GTA are going to have to be compressed to hell if you want to get them up and running on a 360.

Mochan

09-21-2005, 09:28 AM

I'm all for that; I don't mean to trivialize that, but I don't see why the Rev won't also be delivering much better AI and graphics AND a way more innovative experience because of the jump forward in hardware design.

Well the Rev will have trouble matching the PS3 and 360 on this end. Since the hardware won't be as possible, that means less CPU cycles to devote and CPU cycles is what you need for better AI and for physics computation.

Basically, if you don't have enough CPU power to go around, you won't be able to run the AI you programmed properly.

An example would be UFO:Enemy Unknown/X-Com back on the PS1. UFO on the PC had some rather good creature AI for its day (it's a tactical turnbased strategy game). However when it was ported to the PS1, they had to bump up the enemy accuracy ratings to compensate for having to dumbdown the AI because the PS1 couldn't handle all the algorithm processing in an acceptable amount of time. It could go through all the motions the PC version had but turns would take longer as the PS1 takes longer to crunch all that data.

Definitely AI depends more on the programmer than on the CPU itself but more complex AIs will require more CPU power, that is a given. Basically, given a machine that is less pwoerful and a machine that is more powerful, the more powerful machine will be able to have better physics than the weaker machine.

The question is whether devs are sophisticated enough to be able to program an AI that takes full advantage of all the processing power the 360 or PS3 has over the Rev.

Nintendogs ultimately just has AI to control one unit; really intensive games will have multiple personas to control, so I doubt that Nintendog's AI is that processor intensive. Something like Warcraft 3 will probably have a more CPU-intensive AI because it is controlling a vast number of units, even though a lot of those units have just very very simple commands.

Also, I haven't played Nintendogs but just how sophisticated is the AI? I doubt it's much more sophisticated than Black and White's creature AI; and B&W ran the creature AI plus the AI of all the villagers and monsters in the level, plus the enemy's general strategic AI, and this is on PC hardware from like 6 years ago.

And certainly even "sophisticated" AI might not show how effective it is if the programmer doesn't make good use of it. Renz once mentioned how the AI of Doom 3 is so sophisticated, it checks for the height and location of your player, your life, etc. but in the end all it did was "walk towards you and start firing."

I do think you are right, though: I doubt that a game will really come out that has such a sophisticated AI that it needs to make use of all the processing power of the two heavyweight nextgens. I get the feeling that Rev games will have pretty much the same kind of AI the majority of PS3 and 360 games will have. At least for the first few years. It remains to be seen whether this will be the trend.

You do bring up a valid point, and certainly a rather telling one: 360 relies on Human Intelligence rather than AI because of its push for online. I doubt we'll be seeing any real advances in AI on the 360 other than Bethesda's Oblivion.

thelastword

09-21-2005, 09:39 AM

I don't know; the cover story at every site I went too yesterday was still the Rev controller--a massive and innovative jump forward for the industry. MGS4 video was talked about everywhere, but it's hardly a surprise or show stopper; its just a pretty looking sequel. Metal Gear Solid on Ps1 was a break-through at the time; a beautiful marriage of cinematic sensibilities and fun stealthy gameplay. But its pretty old hat now, despite how great it looks on Ps3.The Rev controller should have been a huge announcement but it was'nt, granted everybody wanted to know, so it got much initial coverage, don't forget that Nintendo unveiled their mockup controller before MGS4 was shown. So what happened with me and I guess most people was this, I saw a big story of the new REV controller but then I said, why are they showing a remote as the cover pic. I read about it fair enough, but it did'nt have much impact on me. I'm definitely not trying to belittle Nintendo's efforts, it has some potential but it did'nt have the impact that MGS4 had on the gaming world. I simply read the story was a bit skeptical in acknowledging how they would make this work with all game genres and I moved on.

To be quite honest just take a look at the TGS rap up reports from all major sites, IT's not so hard to deduce that the show belonged to sony. In all forums I've visited MGS4 is all that was being debated, first there was a REV thread or two but it died a quick death, because of MGS4. Gamers were just not as enthused at Nintendo's revelation.

Read off the TGS rap ups of 1up and Kikizo and you'll understand, don't forget gamespot as well, these guys are having a hard time saying positives about the soon to launch 360 much less the Revolution. The Rev can be strong, I do agree but Nintendo has to reveal some specs and show some games NOW, that's what I'm saying.

ThaMaskedGamer

09-21-2005, 10:28 AM

thelastword

09-21-2005, 10:29 AM

but how would PlayStation 3 be coming along? That was the question - along with of course, whether or not the show's booth babes could possibly be cuter than last year's.

Both answers were positive. The latter shall be proven in our inevitable and gratuitous feature; as for PS3, well, while contrary to speculation nothing was playable on the showfloor whatsoever, what was being shown was quite simply, graphically the most stunning stuff on this or any showfloor in any games event ever. While some of last May's PS3 demos were simply re-shown for all to see, such as Killzone 2 and MotorStorm, new material such as a fresh Vision Gran Turismo trailer and, vitally, the debut trailer for the PS3-exclusive Metal Gear Solid 4, looked utterly mind-blowing.

The MGS4 trailer in particular was one of the show's most anticipated highlights - right up there with the Revolution announcement - and did not disappoint when it showed inside Sony's busy PS3 section of its sprawling booth. It's the first videogame footage we've ever seen where the character's every last detail - from facial expression to body animation - looked almost indistinguishable from an actor in a movie. Vision GT, meanwhile, offered easily the best car models and racecourse detail ever seen in the racing genre - period. New trailers for titles announced back at E3, such as WarHawk, also had jaws on the floor. Meanwhile, other publishers such as Koei and Sega (see later) are exhibiting their own PS3-related trailers in the comfort of their own booths.

Let's first revisit the Sony booth for a while. Attention at the market leader's stand has been dominated by the presence of the PlayStation 3 section; a large dark, openly accessible and usually, extremely crowded area. Sporting one of the best large HD displays we've ever seen - including the one used back at SCEA's PlayStation 3 E3 conference - the room has really done the job of showing off a series of mind-boggling trailers and, vitally, real-time demonstrations

In addition to the real-time Sonic the Hedgehog demonstration by Yuji Naka we mentioned in part one of our report, the real stunner in the "what we're seeing it definitely not pre-rendered" department has been the big show-stopper: Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots. As you can see in our, ahem, HD screenshot below, the title was fully demonstrated in debug mode in a live demonstration by series creator Hideo Kojima, who manoeuvred the camera around freely to show off the astonishing level of detail and effects possible on PlayStation 3.

MGS4's HD detail is beyond breathtaking, and notably, everything we've seen in this and other PS3 videos (admittedly they're only really technical demonstrations on unverifiable hardware) runs at an infallible sixty frames per second - a goal which many big first-generation Xbox 360 games is currently struggling to achieve.

Exactly what hardware it's running on - and we can only guess it's the latest so-called PS3 dev-kit, designed to mimic PS3 specs - couldn't really be verified on the showfloor. But, whatever the hardware tucked away behind the booth was, there's no doubt this stuff is real-time - something which has obviously been in doubt since the astonishing, much-hyped debut of PS3 footage at E3 2005. There's seemingly nothing pre-rendered about these jaw-dropping visuals whatsoever - and if the final PS3 hardware can pull of the sort of graphics its supposed dev kits are generating right now, then indications point towards PS3 being a clear winner in the next-gen war's
"prettiness" department.

http://games.kikizo.com/news/200509/069.asp
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trebor

09-21-2005, 10:38 AM

Not sold on that. The shell could primarily just be for GC backwards compatibility meaning that Wavebird mockup from IGN may not be too far off. In that case, you still have the handicap with certain genres such as fighting games.

Wrong. I assumed it was commonly known at this point, but, the Revolution will come standard with four GC controller ports. I.E. the Wavebirds will be for GC backwards compatibility and the Revolution "Wand" shell, or whatever, will be strictly for NES, SNES, N64 and next-gen gaming.

Mochan

09-21-2005, 10:41 AM

Thanks for the link lastword. I already have the GoW trailer, I'm looking for a hi-def version. Is the one on gametrailers hi-def?

the really large multiplat games like maybe the next GTA are going to have to be compressed to hell if you want to get them up and running on a 360.

Or you have to get them on multiple disks, which is always a bad thing.

By the way, I'm not sure I understand what Mark Rein is talking about regarding online. Does he want us to be downloading PS3 games instead of purchasing them at retail? Like how Half Life 2 is being sold under Steam? He's bonkers, that's not going to work with consoles, especially with how harddisks currently stand for consoles.

trebor

09-21-2005, 10:42 AM

The Rev controller should have been a huge announcement but it was'nt, granted everybody wanted to know, so it got much initial coverage, don't forget that Nintendo unveiled their mockup controller before MGS4 was shown. So what happened with me and I guess most people was this, I saw a big story of the new REV controller but then I said, why are they showing a remote as the cover pic. I read about it fair enough, but it did'nt have much impact on me. I'm definitely not trying to belittle Nintendo's efforts, it has some potential but it did'nt have the impact that MGS4 had on the gaming world. I simply read the story was a bit skeptical in acknowledging how they would make this work with all game genres and I moved on.

To be quite honest just take a look at the TGS rap up reports from all major sites, IT's not so hard to deduce that the show belonged to sony. In all forums I've visited MGS4 is all that was being debated, first there was a REV thread or two but it died a quick death, because of MGS4. Gamers were just not as enthused at Nintendo's revelation.

Read off the TGS rap ups of 1up and Kikizo and you'll understand, don't forget gamespot as well, these guys are having a hard time saying positives about the soon to launch 360 much less the Revolution. The Rev can be strong, I do agree but Nintendo has to reveal some specs and show some games NOW, that's what I'm saying.

I don't know which gaming sites you frequent, but on IGN, Gamespy, Gamespot, 1up, and Game Informer the Revolution controller was the main cover story after TGS and MGS4 wasn't. The collective industry buzz was from the Revolution controller and not MGS4.

For all intents and purposes Nintendo completely upstaged M$ and Sony.

Mochan

09-21-2005, 10:53 AM

As for right now, for another year, XBOX is clearly the only impressive console gaming solution.

Well keyword here is "console." This close to launch, there is nothing I want on the 360 enough to make me buy it, mostly because I can get those things on the PC. This is still eerily similar to the situation back when the original XBox launched. The 360 had better do good on diversifying its library as promised to make me consider buying one. This is only for this year, though; potentially by next year there will be more stuff to get hot on, like Frame City Killer and the ilk.

Further, even you must admit that it's not really impressive considering that PS3 techdemos running on unverified hardware are trumping the actual game footage on final 360 devkits.

DrunkenThumbmaster

09-21-2005, 11:01 AM

Well keyword here is "console." This close to launch, there is nothing I want on the 360 enough to make me buy it, mostly because I can get those things on the PC. This is still eerily similar to the situation back when the original XBox launched. The 360 had better do good on diversifying its library as promised to make me consider buying one. This is only for this year, though; potentially by next year there will be more stuff to get hot on, like Frame City Killer and the ilk.

Further, even you must admit that it's not really impressive considering that PS3 techdemos running on unverified hardware are trumping the actual game footage on final 360 devkits.

For better or worse this is the Xbox this is what it and will be. The PC market just isn't big enough look how many copies of DOOM 3 sold on the Xbox. I bet HL2 will be huge as well. If you have a gaming rig (which the vast majority of gamers don't) it may be a little redunant but there is a huge market for those that don't and the PC Xbox cross pollination is only an issue on messageboards.

Gadfly2317

09-21-2005, 11:03 AM

Not sold on that. The shell could primarily just be for GC backwards compatibility meaning that Wavebird mockup from IGN may not be too far off. In that case, you still have the handicap with certain genres such as fighting games.

Perhaps---they were already a weak platform for fighting games; and while I'm conceding a point, if Capcom's doing a new Street Fighter, that is a covet-worthy title;

Gadfly2317

09-21-2005, 11:04 AM

As for right now, for another year, XBOX is clearly the only impressive console gaming solution. I mean Nintendo is waiting till 2006 to unveil the next Zelda, talk about being behind.

Which is it; Xbox is the only impressive console "for the next year" and then you mention Zelda coming out. . . early next year. You are right, Zelda is massively impressive, and one of a number of games that continue to make existing consoles impressive, that make it easier to wait until the Ps3 comes out. Not to mention Shadow of the Collusus, Okami and how cool Liberty Stories on PsP looks (yeah, gamers have a hot portable gadget to pick up this holiday over the Xbox 1.5.) Why jump on the already obsolete Xbox 1.5 for $400? Next year there are two real next gen systems; The Rev with undoubtedly cool new gameplay, and the Ps3 with the serious graphics and faster large-capacity storage medium.

thelastword

09-21-2005, 11:10 AM

With not one finished game, no game footage, no online plans, and no launch date. The PS3 destroys the 360. With what? More technical demos.

You keep holding on lastword and maybe a year from now we will see whose games are the best. All I know is this. In 2001 XBOX was the best, ditto in 2002, 2003, 2004, and now in 2005 360 will be the best console out there, period. So when PS3 is finally ready in 2006, then we can not rely on your uninformed opinion, we can compare the two side by side.

As for right now, for another year, XBOX is clearly the only impressive console gaming solution. I mean Nintendo is waiting till 2006 to unveil the next Zelda, talk about being behind.

Has Sony set a launch date for PS3? Do they have a release date for Metal Gear 4, or Killzone 2? I mean how long do we have to wait for all this greatness? Gamer's are starving for great games. You compare some of these tech demos on the PS3, with the reality that is PS2. Its like telling a starving man, no don't eat now, just wait a year. Go eat some cockroaches and beetles for the time being, do anything but go to our competitor who can feed you now. Please just wait a year and our hamburger will taste a little bit better.
A little bit better, read my post above. People want what they want, they're enthused for what is fun and exciting to them and they react accordingly. That is the state of MS, silly them, showing Gears of War in Japan in the first place, a land not hot on these offerings. Second mistake Showing A lacklustre boring Gears of War with a myriad of performance problems, Ponder that TMG. You must really be out of your mind and quite naive if you've not realized that the 360 is simply not impressing. You talk about a small difference between Ps3 and 360 showings tells your crooked tale even more, as you're clueless. 60+ effing kiosks of games and demos and nobody effin interested, does that ring a bell?

Not one but many Devs have declared PS3 to leagues superior, PS3 beta kits outpaces Final 360 dev kits and you wanna talk about next gen. Let me see some new stuff, like HDR lighting, Next Gen Physics and and particle effects and then you come to the table until then 360 has nothing spectacular, nothing at all. More I see PS3 games the more impressed I become GT vision, Endless Saga, Hell even a next gen Sonic was being played on ps3 hardware at the TGS. You want to talk next gen? It begins with PS3. why are the multiplats on 360 just higher rez versions of what's on the current systems? They definitely have'nt taken the leap. EA and the other big third party's are clearly waiting for the PS3 in order to jump to next gen graphics and gameplay. Where was fight Night first Shown? Yeah! on the PS3, does'nt that ring a bell. The Sony console will be the mark for next gen multiplats and 360 will most likely get dumbed down versions.

Spring 06 BABY! does'nt that ring a bell. How many times should they say it before you believe. Games will be playable at the GDC and E3 next year, they don't need to rush anything. They taking their time and getting the results, Here's MS rushing ahead, displaying a lot of games which no one wants to play. Games that look current gen for the most part with no appeal in their gameplay mechanics, and you're telling me people are excited. You must be crazy.

What's with dismissing current gen games? are you OK! These last set of games for the Ps2 are going to be uber titles. NO matter how great the upcoming PS3 titles look will not make me forget great games like SOTC, OKami (as a matter of fact check 1up's TGS preview of it), FF12, KH2, ROGUE GALAXY and DQ8 just to name a few, some of these games are guaranteed to be the best in their selective genres this gen. This gen is not over for PS2 fans maybe for xbox fanatics but certainly not PS2 fans.

The writing is on the wall, it's gameover for current xbox enthusiasts and it's already game over for Next Gen xbox enthusiasts. This is as serious as it gets.

thelastword

09-21-2005, 11:35 AM

I don't know which gaming sites you frequent, but on IGN, Gamespy, Gamespot, 1up, and Game Informer the Revolution controller was the main cover story after TGS and MGS4 wasn't. The collective industry buzz was from the Revolution controller and not MGS4.

For all intents and purposes Nintendo completely upstaged M$ and Sony.
I agree that the REV controller got much initial coverage, but the gaming world was floored with MGS4. Just read the Kikizo wrap up I posted earlier on. The Rev controller was something that many were anticipating, so yes it did get alot of coverage, but it did'nt rock the show, It got some positive reactions from publications but no one did a HALO jump because of it. On the other hand Industry reaction to MGS4 was much more profound.

Thanks for the link lastword. I already have the GoW trailer, I'm looking for a hi-def version. Is the one on gametrailers hi-def?Don't mention it, I don't think the GoW trailer at gametrailers is Hi-def, you might want to check Kikizo.com for that, I will check myself, but do expect many of the Hi def versions of TGS trailers to surface a little later.

thelastword

09-21-2005, 11:53 AM

By the way, I'm not sure I understand what Mark Rein is talking about regarding online. Does he want us to be downloading PS3 games instead of purchasing them at retail? Like how Half Life 2 is being sold under Steam? He's bonkers, that's not going to work with consoles, especially with how harddisks currently stand for consoles.
Read the entire interview, actually he was asked whether he believed games should be distributed a la steam to cut off on retailers which offer their customers used copies of games over new copies. This definitely takes some sting at the devs profits and so the question was asked about alternative distributive measures.

Here's the link;

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/r/?http://www.computerandvideogames.com/news/news_story.php(que)id=125925

Mochan

09-21-2005, 12:00 PM

Personally I think Gears of War is a joke. The gameplay so far seems to revolve around lighting the path you are taking so you don't fall into the shadows. The engine is nextgen Unreal 3 Engine but the character designs I do not like (that's taste though), the game is 3rd person (why not 1st person!? Well I think it's in order to show off the evade animations) and the gameplay mechanic is to light cars up and fire at gas pools to create bonfires to light your way. Oh yeah....

DrunkenThumbmaster

09-21-2005, 12:00 PM

Mochan

09-21-2005, 12:46 PM

I thought you'd see it my way!

thelastword

09-21-2005, 01:07 PM

MGS4 was'nt the only game folks, there were tonnes more and by the look of it almost all of these games will maintain high fidelity in the graphics department, I mean what else can we talk about now. Did anyone see the TGS DMC4 trailer it's not lengthy but it's right up there as well. The fact of the matter is 102 games was announced for the PS3 at the TGS, out of all that was shown, I can't name one I remember that looked like a ps2 game to me. So many great looking games to look forward to, Heavenly Sword, Motorstorm, I8, GT5, F1, RE5, The getaway 3, Endless SAga, Tekken 6, Lair etc... all of these games look amazing and blow the competition away. GT5 looks better than PGR3, Heavenly Sword crushes 99 nights I could go on and there's always the chance that the PS3 version of RE5 will trample that of the 360.

With each new generation though we all look forward to the new groundbreaking games, Heavenly Sword or Lair may be just that.More games will be revealed very soon on the PS3, ushering in more and more onlookers. There are some games that was shown that I did'nt make a fuss about like Project Assassins, Genji 2, Fatal Inertia etc.. and yes they all look good and next gen. That's what I'm talking about, a great level of graphical quality is achieveable by most Devs, they can now easily concentrate on giving us great gameplay. They don't have to spend months trying to get their games to hit a subpar 30fps, they can now concentrate focus and spend that time on content and gameplay.

Too many problems with 360 games, just too many. PGR3 having trouble locking 30 frames with subpar visuals and so is GOW, 360's best looking games. The 360 just isn't capable of delivering that next gen experience as the ps3 can, It can't process physics calculations like it, If PS2 was much better at particle effects than the xbox, Then how much more capable is the ps3 in that aspect over the 360. Time will tell, I think it's already telling if you ask me, some are just too blind to see.

Superior Beatslayer

09-21-2005, 01:17 PM

snip

Well, I think that its pretty safe to say that the first word has flushed his credibility down the toilet. First off, your already saying that 360 is a joke 2 months before it's release, you pretty much just pulled everything you just said out of your ass....Secondly, there has been confirmed reports that the GPU in 360 is faster on more capable then that of the PS3, THIRDLY, and I can't believe you went here, you actually said that the MG series outdo the SC series, HA! and they're BOTH multiplat games, just so you know for future reference, and SC is like a father to MG, sure MG probably gave some ideas but thats it, Splinter Cell is clearly a better series.

Fivespot

09-21-2005, 01:19 PM

Two things -

1. PS3 showings are video only and 360 is displaying games running on the actual hardware

2. 360 releases 11/22 and developers haven't had ample time to fully utilize the hardware (which may be due to alpha and beta kits being delivered late by MS).

How can you compare the two considering these 2 points? Kind of apples to oranges in my opinion. If one thing is for certain in my mind, launch 360 titles won't look nearly as good as 360 titles released a year later so its hard to pass judgement this early.

From all I've read - the two systems are similarily capable and one is not heads & shoulders above the other (similar to PS2 vs. XBOX).

mandark

09-21-2005, 01:24 PM

Too many problems with 360 games, just too many. PGR3 having trouble locking 30 frames with subpar visuals and so is GOW, 360's best looking games. The 360 just isn't capable of delivering that next gen experience as the ps3 can, It can't process physics calculations like it, If PS2 was much better at particle effects than the xbox, Then how much more capable is the ps3 in that aspect over the 360. Time will tell, I think it's already telling if you ask me, some are just too blind to see.

I have to disagree with you there TLW. The 360 games we are comparing the PS3 games to are hatchet job launch games. We will have to wait at least a year to see the real potential of the 360. The time when the competition arrives. PGR3's developers have mentioned before that the reason PGR3 is running at 30/fps is because they are pressed for time to make this a launch title. If given more time they said its highly possible for PGR3 to run at 60/fps.

So its not the developer's and the hardware's fault that the games for the 360 are looking like updated garbage. All the blame goes to MS for deciding that being first out of the gate is more important than releasing quality games.

Mochan

09-21-2005, 01:38 PM

I could go on and there's always the chance that the PS3 version of RE5 will trample that of the 360.

I gotta agree with mandark. The opening salvos are just that... opening salvos. We'll see the real differences (or lack of) between the two systems once we get to compare the multiplats. RE5 would be an ideal point of comparison for this.

That said, the PS3 is really looking better right now.

And about Splinter Cell being a father to Metal Gear... no way. For starters, Metal Gear is a series that's almost two decades older. And really, the two games aren't similar at all. They both "covert ops" games but that's about the end of the simlarity; MGS's stealth aspect is very different from SC's; MGS is more a matter of line of sight and using funky tricks like cardboard boxes while SC's stealth is a page taken out of the Thief handbook.

MGS also has far more emphasis on the story and character development, and coming up wtih unique gameplay situations whereas SC is more a tried-and-tested stealth romp almost ignoring any meaningful development on characters and story.

The differences are very stark and I have trouble lumping the two series into the same genre.

thelastword

09-21-2005, 01:47 PM

Well, I think that its pretty safe to say that the first word has flushed his credibility down the toilet. First off, your already saying that 360 is a joke 2 months before it's release, you pretty much just pulled everything you just said out of your ass....Secondly, there has been confirmed reports that the GPU in 360 is faster on more capable then that of the PS3, THIRDLY, and I can't believe you went here, you actually said that the MG series outdo the SC series, HA! and they're BOTH multiplat games, just so you know for future reference, and SC is like a father to MG, sure MG probably gave some ideas but thats it, Splinter Cell is clearly a better series.
How much of that leaf in your avatar are you on? I provided links for everything I said. I even provided a link to 4 minute 125mb HD trailer of MGS4. So yes roll that up and smoke it. It will surely do you better than what you're on.

Splinter Cell AKA Sleeper Cell is boring and MEH! There's much more life and energy in the Metal Gear series and no, not all Metal Gear games were multiplat, Did any other console get MGS3 will any other console get MGS4, please. Which version of SC did'nt the PS2 GC and PC get? they got all. So yes, do some more smoking my herbal friend.

And yes whilst I'm pulling things out my ass, Please provide me a link that compares a finshed RSX with the finalized XENOS, not the phantom one, NO SIR, but the one which will be complete next month OCTOBER. A faster GPU huh! wow what makes it faster, the fact that it has a lower clock speed than the RSX? the fact that in combination with the 360's CPU, devs are having problems pushing 30 FPS, are you serious? ARE you sure you should have even commented. Beta PS3 kits are murdering final 360 Dev Kits and you're telling me about a superior Xenos.

Why has ATi spent so long in the labs, they're having problems, If you must know. The 360 is nothing more than proving grounds to them, Sadly, Lemmings like your self are all standing in line for OHH TEH UNIFIED SHADERS, pleaseeeee! Show me the money!

trebor

09-21-2005, 01:51 PM

thelastword

09-21-2005, 02:27 PM

I have to disagree with you there TLW. The 360 games we are comparing the PS3 games to are hatchet job launch games. We will have to wait at least a year to see the real potential of the 360. The time when the competition arrives. PGR3's developers have mentioned before that the reason PGR3 is running at 30/fps is because they are pressed for time to make this a launch title. If given more time they said its highly possible for PGR3 to run at 60/fps.

So its not the developer's and the hardware's fault that the games for the 360 are looking like updated garbage. All the blame goes to MS for deciding that being first out of the gate is more important than releasing quality games.I did read that myself, I mean Bizarre is saying that 4 more months would make them lock this game at 60fps, but seriously, why is it such a problem to get this game locked at 60? It certainly is not the best looking next gen racer, Isn't this the next gen? If the 360 is as powerful and as friendly to dev for as Ms will have us believe, why are so many launch and launch window games struggling to look the part and run well. I won't buy it that this is early stuff gents, there are too many technical problems I'm hearing about this machine so early, Hell even before it's launched.

I don't deny that there will be better looking games on the 360 down the road, but the same can be said of the PS3, and if Kojima can basically murder the 360 in 4 short months running his engine at 60 solid FPS, how much more will he do in two years or what will Square do with FF13 or what will Capcom do with DMC4? We can't be definite about which games will be there at launch but I'm thinking Tekken is one, I8 is another and Heavenly Sword as well, all of these games look stellar and above similar 360 offerings. Doa4 is not much of an upgrade IMO, the thing is these DEVS had much more time developing their games for the 360, so whether it was on beta kits or Final is negligent because PS3 games are running now at 60fps on beta kits in less time than 360 games and they all look better as well.

Let me just say that there should be no excuses for MS, DOA 2 hardcore was a ps2 launch game it was locked at 60fps, so was SSX. Yes, that hard to develop for ps2. What is MS excuse after all their easy to develop for rumbling. These launch games look so subpar and still can't be locked at 60 fps. When these devs do start to compress their games on DVD9's using away much more of that cpu power and when they start getting more ambitious with their games, I suspect they will face severe hardware limitations, so yes this is how I see it, I will not make any excuses for these guys. I want to see MS usher in the next gen come NOVEMBER 22nd. Any reference to a year or two down the road would mean that the PS3 will be off and away and will be seperating itself even further from XBOX 1.5.

If PS3 games are looking so much better now, It only indicates to me that with the progression of time, that bar of difference will be maintained and by extension strech furtheraway.

thelastword

09-21-2005, 02:43 PM

Frankly, the most interesting games Sony has lined up is Okami and Shadow of the Colossus, which I guess could be played on a PS3, but it isn't required.

What's even more sad is that the big games Sony is touting right now are two sequels, one to a 20 year old franchise and one to a less then steller first attempt, MGS4 and Killzone 2 respectively.

To be perfectly honest, neither the 360 OR the PS3 has particularly wowed me with any truly inspiring titles.Well it all depends on the games you like, clearly, all the cards have not been revealed. As it stands Sony is planning a huge show at the GDC in January after final dev kits are out this Novemeber and of course there's E3 before the launch. So what alot of you are forgetting is that there's time before everybody feel the need to come onboard but I have no doubts that there will be games to impress everyone even at launch.

You mentioned MGS4 and Killzone, yes you may not be interested personally, but these games have alot of fans and they did sell well. Maybe MGS3 did'nt do as well as MGS2 but the ratings did prove that it was right up there. The other thing to note is that a next generation game in a proven franchise almost always picks up the pace and steam relative to anticipation and sales. All the talk you hear about splinter Cell CT, did it sell more copies than MGS3? I don't think so.

I'm glad that you mentioned Okami and SOTC, as these will be solid games, at least there'll be games which I really want to play before the ps3 arrives. There are many more which I always mention here and there. So if Xbox fans want to go ahead and play their subpar games come launch they can, but I will be playing the ps2's best during that time. I will also look forward to the unveilings of the newer games from Naughty, Namco, Factor 5, Bioware and Square I'm sure we'll be seeing a truckload more ps3 games soon. Variety I fear NOT.

Mochan

09-21-2005, 02:54 PM

Also PS3 is one-upping the 360 again at every step. 360 will have 40+ launch titles? PS3 is going to have 100+. I'm sure we'll have enough variety there.

ThaMaskedGamer

09-21-2005, 04:47 PM

A little bit better, read my post above. People want what they want, they're enthused for what is fun and exciting to them and they react accordingly. That is the state of MS, silly them, showing Gears of War in Japan in the first place, a land not hot on these offerings. Second mistake Showing A lacklustre boring Gears of War with a myriad of performance problems, Ponder that TMG. You must really be out of your mind and quite naive if you've not realized that the 360 is simply not impressing. You talk about a small difference between Ps3 and 360 showings tells your crooked tale even more, as you're clueless. 60+ effing kiosks of games and demos and nobody effin interested, does that ring a bell?

Not one but many Devs have declared PS3 to leagues superior, PS3 beta kits outpaces Final 360 dev kits and you wanna talk about next gen. Let me see some new stuff, like HDR lighting, Next Gen Physics and and particle effects and then you come to the table until then 360 has nothing spectacular, nothing at all. More I see PS3 games the more impressed I become GT vision, Endless Saga, Hell even a next gen Sonic was being played on ps3 hardware at the TGS. You want to talk next gen? It begins with PS3. why are the multiplats on 360 just higher rez versions of what's on the current systems? They definitely have'nt taken the leap. EA and the other big third party's are clearly waiting for the PS3 in order to jump to next gen graphics and gameplay. Where was fight Night first Shown? Yeah! on the PS3, does'nt that ring a bell. The Sony console will be the mark for next gen multiplats and 360 will most likely get dumbed down versions.

Spring 06 BABY! does'nt that ring a bell. How many times should they say it before you believe. Games will be playable at the GDC and E3 next year, they don't need to rush anything. They taking their time and getting the results, Here's MS rushing ahead, displaying a lot of games which no one wants to play. Games that look current gen for the most part with no appeal in their gameplay mechanics, and you're telling me people are excited. You must be crazy.

What's with dismissing current gen games? are you OK! These last set of games for the Ps2 are going to be uber titles. NO matter how great the upcoming PS3 titles look will not make me forget great games like SOTC, OKami (as a matter of fact check 1up's TGS preview of it), FF12, KH2, ROGUE GALAXY and DQ8 just to name a few, some of these games are guaranteed to be the best in their selective genres this gen. This gen is not over for PS2 fans maybe for xbox fanatics but certainly not PS2 fans.

The writing is on the wall, it's gameover for current xbox enthusiasts and it's already game over for Next Gen xbox enthusiasts. This is as serious as it gets.

He said she said, let me know when the PS3 is here okay. I'm not impressed by tech demos. If the PS3 is great or significantly greater than the 360 good, it will be great for the industry, but i'm not gonna believe it until I see it. Especially after another tech demo. Its just more marketing.

Spring '06 we will see. Somehow I think that will translate into XMAS or at least thanksgiving for US consumers.

PS3, right now, is kinda like that comet out there that is gonna hit the Earth who knows when. Listen, when the thing get's close to the Earth, then i'll run around screaming and pull all my hair out. I mean, are you really gonna be screaming and raving about PS3 until the thing launches. Do you really have that much hot air? And what are you gonna do if when it does come, the real games don't look as impressive as the tech demos? Go run and hide, post under a new name?

ThaMaskedGamer

09-21-2005, 04:57 PM

Also PS3 is one-upping the 360 again at every step. 360 will have 40+ launch titles? PS3 is going to have 100+. I'm sure we'll have enough variety there.
100+ launch titles, man you guys are suckers. LOL, would it really be in anyone's interest to have 100 launch titles. Gosh you guys will believe anything. You'll have a lot of developers going out of business early. First MS isn't launching with 40 games, they said 40 games during the launch window, which is like the first 3 months or even longer. So by Spring '06 there are gonna be 100 plus games for PS3.

Hmmm what other crack head comments have been made? GT5 is gonna be 100 times better than GT4. 100 seems to be a popular marketing slogan these days.

thelastword

09-22-2005, 09:34 AM

He said she said, let me know when the PS3 is here okay. I'm not impressed by tech demos. If the PS3 is great or significantly greater than the 360 good, it will be great for the industry, but i'm not gonna believe it until I see it. Especially after another tech demo. Its just more marketing.

Spring '06 we will see. Somehow I think that will translate into XMAS or at least thanksgiving for US consumers.

PS3, right now, is kinda like that comet out there that is gonna hit the Earth who knows when. Listen, when the thing get's close to the Earth, then i'll run around screaming and pull all my hair out. I mean, are you really gonna be screaming and raving about PS3 until the thing launches. Do you really have that much hot air? And what are you gonna do if when it does come, the real games don't look as impressive as the tech demos? Go run and hide, post under a new name?
Another tech demo you say, I agree. So whatever happened when you said Halo 3 will be better than MGS4, Have you seen it yet? Is it running at a blistering 60fps? At least I spoke of things I've seen, and no matter how much you believe that Sony has shown movies means nothing, because most games that I speak about were done in realtime with camera manipulation. As a matter of fact I expect much more from the PS3 in the coming years based on such a buxom start in terms of raw power and ease of development.

You spoke of Halo 3, do you think that it will be able to compete against newer fps franchises like I8, Killzone and Killing Day? Don't compare it against a newer Metal Gear, that's in another class and genre. You want to talk about Halo's gameplay as being something so superior to any other experience out there, Is that really the truth? From what I've noticed of your gaming habits online play is synonymous with great gameplay, that's why you estimate games like Halo and Chaos Theory so highly. Here's where your hypocrisy comes in though, you would bash a game like Socom even if it had a superb online multiplayer, Why? because it's not on the Xbox. So basically you bash anything that's not on the xbox and that you have'nt played. I'm sure you believe that Metroid Prime is trash.

The games I speak about on the Xbox are those I have played or experienced. You don't have a ps2 and so you don't play ps2 games, does'nt that make xbox games automatically better to you? clearly you only drink wine from one part of the vineyard and not the other, so you can never really know how other wines taste.

MGS4 is currently the most impressive next gen game shown thus far, deal with it. I expect all the Major guns to wow us with their next gen franchises like Polyphony with their GT5, SquareEnix with their FFXIII, Namco with ther next gen Tekken and Soul Calibur. Sure, they're old franchises but they will all look brand spanking new with a major next gen appeal. I don't know what newer franchises will make me stand up and take notice at this point since we all have to await more revelations and announcements in the future. On the other hand I've seen enough of the 360 games to know that I'm not interested at this point, considering that the next gen leap isn't that significant anyway. So yes, I'll await the PS3 and I'll be playing my ps2 games in the interim.

I see no game on the 360 where I can't experience similar or even better on my current platforms. Oblivion I will give a try on my pc, as well as Quake 4, FEAR and Condemned. Why? because they all seem like PC games to me. I don't think I would these games for my PS3 anyway unless they were significantly better there. I am primarily a console gamer though and these are the games that drive me console genre's like Racers, Fighters, Action/Adventure and of course RPG's. My rig is powerful enough to run those games I mentioned and even more so I'll give them a run and experience some of the 360's launch window games as well.

Superior Beatslayer

09-22-2005, 01:04 PM

you gave like one link you idiot, and just really didn't justify anything you said. your just one of those guys that hates everything to do with Xbox and loves Sony and their bland systems to death.

heres some goddamn links

http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6450-0-10.html?forumID=104&threadID=105064&messageID=1206920&start=-156

http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000367043866/

http://www.the-protagonist.net/~topof/archives/2005/05/microsofts_vers.html

So you see, the 360 isn't a joke like you say it is.

Gadfly2317

09-22-2005, 01:14 PM

Superior Beatslayer

09-22-2005, 06:31 PM

What is this crap? A link to some cnet forum comments on the MTV unveiling of 360? An old E3 2005 article? What in the hell is your stupid point, please tell us?

lol, I knew I shouldv'e put the first link up, click on the last link dummie and read that, I think my point will be more illustrated then.

thelastword

09-23-2005, 02:47 AM

lol, I knew I shouldv'e put the first link up, click on the last link dummie and read that, I think my point will be more illustrated then.All the links you provided are crap, mindless, fanboyish Major Nelson crap. Back then, there were several rebuttals to Major Nelson's assanine piece which I'm sure was brought up and discussed on these forums. First of all, when a man declares that the SPE's of the PS3 have no cache, you know he's an ignorant fool and one should'nt read his article any further. I feel sorry for you though, bringing back this thorn of an article in MS's flesh, as your ignorance on the whole matter seems even more fleshed out than major Nelson himself.

Here's how, your best article begins, It's the third one.

Today, Major Nelson (http://www.majornelson.com/) (whom I generally agree with and respect) posted a rather idiotic comparison of the PS3 and Xbox360's performance specs (http://www.majornelson.com/2005/05/20/xbox-360-vs-ps3-part-1-of-4/). You can view my comparison here (http://www.topofcool.com/archives/2005/05/all_the_cards_o_1.html).
So, let's digest Major Nelsons charts...Now that's a guy trying to put to rest the idiocy that Major Nelson posted, a fan of the guy for crying out loud. I won't go into too much detail with you as I'm convinced you will not be able to grasp. SWEET DREAMS......

Mochan

09-23-2005, 06:20 AM

Beat, better not use the links you linked too, especially the Major Nelson one, which is the most ignorant piece of trash I have read on this subject ever.

They are all mistaken. First link says PS3 has 16 pipelines (it has 24).

The second link is the best of the bunch, but then it seems more pro-PS3 than 360.

The last link, which you are so proud of, is the biggest piece of turd I've read about the next gen war. I don't know who this Major Nelson is, but basing on this article he wrote, he's a total moron. BTW, the link you linked to is a rebuttal to the numbers posted. At least, to be more convincing, post to Nelson's original article without all the rebuttals.

He creates numbers stacked in the weirdest ways in favor of the 360.

For instance, in CPU power he stacks the XBox 360's 3 cores against the PS3's one PPE. This of course makes absolutely no sense since the PS3 has seven other SPEs. What are those? Decoration?

Or the most laughable one, comparing memory bandwidth. He compares the ondie bandwidth of the Xenos' EDRAM to the system bus bandwidth of the PS3 -- which is as stupid as it gets. One is simply within one component of the 360 (the GPU) while the other is the speed of the entire system memory bus on the PS3 (all components). If we compared the entire system bus of the 360, it would have been 22.4GB/s (XBox) vs. 25.6GB/s (PS3).

Gadfly2317

09-23-2005, 07:49 AM

lol, I knew I shouldv'e put the first link up, click on the last link dummie and read that, I think my point will be more illustrated then.

I get it; your point was to link to a discredited xbots gibberish in some other forum, which ends with a dismissal of the importance of the hardware as sort of a way out. That was the weirdest three links I've EVER seen anyone post in order to try and prop up a console.

thelastword

09-23-2005, 09:04 AM

Although much have been said about it thus far, these three links were the trashiest I have EVER seen posted here. Linking to fanboy forum talk, WTF. I mean BeatSlayer's so called best link, which he so eloquently referred you to, begins with the writer a Nelson fan calling on his Idiocy and appears to have written an article himself to disprove the trash that Nelson wrote, which he linked to right there in the beginning.

The bottomline is this, PS3 is showing major signs of being the only next gen machine, not only on a graphical and performance level but because of all of it's extra's as well. Enchant Arm, a launch window game for the 360 will most likely come on 3 DVD 9's. In essence Devs only have access to 7Gbs on any dual Layered disc as Ms is using 1.5gbs for copyright coding Etc.. I mean product security is essential, I have no bones with that. My question is, what awaits us in the near future with 360 games. Will multiple disks affect more than just the RPG genre? It definitely looks that way. If a launch game spans three disks now, it only indicates that later in the console's life cycle that 6 or more may not be farfetched.

As Rein from epic said, they will easily utilize the 20+gb's of the bluray disc. Imagine having to swap discs with racers, shooters, etc.. on your 360. Yes ladies and gentlemen, Unreal Tournament 2k10 available on the ps3 on a single Bluray Dl disc, now available on your 360 in this nicley packaged 7 disc set. Laughable really....

Mochan

09-23-2005, 09:33 AM

Wan-Fu

09-23-2005, 11:52 AM

How much of that leaf in your avatar are you on? I provided links for everything I said. I even provided a link to 4 minute 125mb HD trailer of MGS4. So yes roll that up and smoke it. It will surely do you better than what you're on.

Splinter Cell AKA Sleeper Cell is boring and MEH! There's much more life and energy in the Metal Gear series and no, not all Metal Gear games were multiplat, Did any other console get MGS3 will any other console get MGS4, please. Which version of SC did'nt the PS2 GC and PC get? they got all. So yes, do some more smoking my herbal friend.

And yes whilst I'm pulling things out my ass, Please provide me a link that compares a finshed RSX with the finalized XENOS, not the phantom one, NO SIR, but the one which will be complete next month OCTOBER. A faster GPU huh! wow what makes it faster, the fact that it has a lower clock speed than the RSX? the fact that in combination with the 360's CPU, devs are having problems pushing 30 FPS, are you serious? ARE you sure you should have even commented. Beta PS3 kits are murdering final 360 Dev Kits and you're telling me about a superior Xenos.

Why has ATi spent so long in the labs, they're having problems, If you must know. The 360 is nothing more than proving grounds to them, Sadly, Lemmings like your self are all standing in line for OHH TEH UNIFIED SHADERS, pleaseeeee! Show me the money!

As awesome as that MGS trailer was, and as hip as the MGS series is, the actual gameplay is not on the same continent as splinter cell. Once I turned on MGS 3, and couldn't fully rotate the camera 360 degrees anytime I wanted I almost turned the game off. In addition, the control of Snake is laughably inferior. He had some goofy issue with standing up, crouching, and laying flat on his belly (I forget what it was), but it was absolutely infuriating. I had just played Pandora Tomorrow, and the control and gameplay of MGS felt like something from a previous GENERATION. This is not fanboy stuff, if you have played both games, you know this to be true. MGS creams splinter cell in terms of kitsch, presentation and style. For God's sakes, I hope they fix the ancient gameplay. That would make me excited, moreso then the pretty graphics

thelastword

09-23-2005, 12:40 PM

Enchant Arm is going to be 3DVDs? Good lord.

BTW, I am actually interested in Enchant Arm but I did notice something. Look at this screenie please:

http://screenshots.teamxbox.com/screen-hires/42294/eM/

Now can someone tell me: what is up with all that aliasing?! Is it just that this screenshot is not a "final shot" so they didn't bother to put in anti-aliasing, or does the game really have jaggies that bad? I mean I've seen screenies of other 360 games and they had fine AA but this game has some really bad aliasing.
I Know that this game has a unique graphical style, but apart from the aliasing, this game does not look better than FF12 and KH2 to me. Perhaps I should take a look at some vids to clarify this. I read a preview of it recently, which indicated that it has some really expansive worlds. Despsite this, I'm still somewhat disappointed in it's lack of next gen appeal.

Mochan

09-23-2005, 01:19 PM

Well personally I didn't think the graphics were really beyond any of Square's PS2 offerings either. The resolution was higher but despite that, well, let's just say it's probably just what current gen Final Fantasy would look like if it were higher-res.

And again, it's got some severe aliasing issues. They better enable some anti-aliasing or the Xbox detractors will have a field day. Oh wait... that's me! LOL

thelastword

09-23-2005, 01:19 PM

As awesome as that MGS trailer was, and as hip as the MGS series is, the actual gameplay is not on the same continent as splinter cell. Once I turned on MGS 3, and couldn't fully rotate the camera 360 degrees anytime I wanted I almost turned the game off. In addition, the control of Snake is laughably inferior. He had some goofy issue with standing up, crouching, and laying flat on his belly (I forget what it was), but it was absolutely infuriating. I had just played Pandora Tomorrow, and the control and gameplay of MGS felt like something from a previous GENERATION. This is not fanboy stuff, if you have played both games, you know this to be true. MGS creams splinter cell in terms of kitsch, presentation and style. For God's sakes, I hope they fix the ancient gameplay. That would make me excited, moreso then the pretty graphics Well there were some camera issues in MGS3 but that did'nt stop it from being a great game, I guess the same can be said of Ninja Gaiden. In my opinion if a game is that good, slight camera problems won't hinder it's funfactor. We would all ***** slightly at first, but after a while a gamer does get use to it. Having said that, MGS Subsistence does offer a new camera view to solve that problem, just like Team Ninja did with it's Ninja Gaiden Black.

I believe it's all up to you though and what you like, I just believe that MGS was better able to immerse me in it's gaming universe/space. I'm speaking of the characters, plot advancement etc...it keeps you there. All fanboyism aside though, you did highlight these positives and I commend you. It's just that, Splinter Cell lacks what metal Gear has, It lacks Soul. My point is this, slight camera problems won't detract gamers from great games, but I agree it should be fixed or worked out in future releases.

Gadfly2317

09-23-2005, 01:37 PM

Well there were some camera issues in MGS3 but that did'nt stop it from being a great game, I guess the same can be said of Ninja Gaiden. In my opinion if a game is that good, slight camera problems won't hinder it's funfactor. We would all ***** slightly at first, but after a while a gamer does get use to it. Having said that, MGS Subsistence does offer a new camera view to solve that problem, just like Team Ninja did with it's Ninja Gaiden Black.

I believe it's all up to you though and what you like, I just believe that MGS was better able to immerse me in it's gaming universe/space. I'm speaking of the characters, plot advancement etc...it keeps you there. All fanboyism aside though, you did highlight these positives and I commend you. It's just that, Splinter Cell lacks what metal Gear has, It lacks Soul. My point is this, slight camera problems won't detract gamers from great games, but I agree it should be fixed or worked out in future releases.

A fixed camera angle game is not necessarily the lesser game over a free-look game, they are just very different games. There are a lot of great games with fixed camera angles, and what that adds is a more dramatic and cinematic game experience, i.e. Eternal Darkness, Killer 7, Fatal Frame. I don't know anything about the sequels, but the first Splinter Cell bored the crap out of me, I never did get what the big draw was. I suppose someone could always blame it on I was playing the GC version with sticky bombs and a GBA radar.

Wan-Fu

09-23-2005, 01:38 PM

Well there were some camera issues in MGS3 but that did'nt stop it from being a great game, I guess the same can be said of Ninja Gaiden. In my opinion if a game is that good, slight camera problems won't hinder it's funfactor. We would all ***** slightly at first, but after a while a gamer does get use to it. Having said that, MGS Subsistence does offer a new camera view to solve that problem, just like Team Ninja did with it's Ninja Gaiden Black.

I believe it's all up to you though and what you like, I just believe that MGS was better able to immerse me in it's gaming universe/space. I'm speaking of the characters, plot advancement etc...it keeps you there. All fanboyism aside though, you did highlight these positives and I commend you. It's just that, Splinter Cell lacks what metal Gear has, It lacks Soul. My point is this, slight camera problems won't detract gamers from great games, but I agree it should be fixed or worked out in future releases.

Contrarily, I wonder what Splinter Cell can do to make it a more compelling series. I am tired of killing euro-trash and nameless, faceless off-white human beings. Maybe take it retro? We could infiltrate the freakin Klan in the 60's, or the Michigan Militia. Can't they spice up the plot a little bit more? Seriously....cant they freeze sam like Han Solo or put his ass is a cryogenic chamber so he could rethaw to subvert an alien invasion? At least, hame him go crazy and hunt the men who assign him jobs...that would be pretty cool. Maybe in the single player, he has to eliminate a series of Bad Guy super spies who are as good as he is...something besides the military porn.

Mochan

09-23-2005, 01:38 PM

Gadfly2317

09-23-2005, 01:49 PM

Contrarily, I wonder what Splinter Cell can do to make it a more compelling series. I am tired of killing euro-trash and nameless, faceless off-white human beings. Maybe take it retro? We could infiltrate the freakin Klan in the 60's, or the Michigan Militia. Can't they spice up the plot a little bit more? Seriously....cant they freeze sam like Han Solo or put his ass is a cryogenic chamber so he could rethaw to subvert an alien invasion? At least, hame him go crazy and hunt the men who assign him jobs...that would be pretty cool. Maybe in the single player, he has to eliminate a series of Bad Guy super spies who are as good as he is...something besides the military porn.

Those are some great ideas! Infiltrating a militia though? That's the current administrations base! If we wanted Sam Fischer to do the realistic work of US intelligence, we could have him infilitrate peace groups and Sierra Club meetings, you know, stand around, drink coffee, stealthily sneak a couple extra cookies, narc on old people and college kids, for freedom. And security.

The alien thing sounds more fun.

Mochan

09-23-2005, 02:00 PM

A fixed camera angle game is not necessarily the lesser game over a free-look game, they are just very different games. There are a lot of great games with fixed camera angles, and what that adds is a more dramatic and cinematic game experience, i.e. Eternal Darkness, Killer 7, Fatal Frame. I don't know anything about the sequels, but the first Splinter Cell bored the crap out of me, I never did get what the big draw was. I suppose someone could always blame it on I was playing the GC version with sticky bombs and a GBA radar.

It's not just the GC version, I played SC on the PC (which has the best graphics of all the versions) and it was totally boring and disappointing. The 2nd SC's singleplayer was pretty much the same though as TMG has pointed out so eloquently elsewhere, its mutliplayer redeems it.

The fixed camera angles are something more for a cinematic experience. Or a horror experience (Gothic horror depends largely on camera angles), or both. This is very popular in console games, and MGS is definitely intended to be a cinematic experience. First person doesn't lend well to this kind of experience (cinematic is more like you are watching it as a spectator, not being you and seeing it first person -- though there are some very good cinematic first person experiences as well).

MGS and SC may both have stealth elements, but it is clear to me that they are not the same genre of game. SC is a modified stealth shooter, MGS is not a stealth shooter, just some weird stealth game.

Wan-Fu

09-23-2005, 02:02 PM

Gameplay-wise I would say SC's core mechanics are better than MGS's core gameplay mechanics, no surprsie there as SC's core mechanics are taken straight from the original and best, the series that defined the stealth shooter game, Thief.

However MGS stands over SC in the variable gameplay situations you get in. SC's gameplay is all the same no matter what the level; you hide in shadows, roll around here and there, grab someone with your gun, pick a lock, etc. The levels just change but the game plays the same.

MGS on the other hand has unique gameplay mechanics every here and there. At first it's just sneaking and grabbing soliders and knocking them out, etc. But later on you may be knocking on walls to find weakspots, taking a sniper rifle to shoot from afar, engage in a pistol fight from cover, etc. Boss fights have unique ways of playing; it's truly a new experience around every corner.

This only helps MGS draw you into its gameworld, it turns it into an experience rather than just a game. And then we have the characters, the plot, the music, the directing, all of these are leagues above what we have in SC.

So while SC may have the edge over MGS in core mechanics, it loses just about everywhere else.

The big draw of SC is that its not a game. When you are perfectly in tune with the character and are able to utilize his laundry list of moves without thinking, YOU ACTUALLY FEEL LIKE YOU ARE A SPY. I don't know if you have played Chaos Theory, but the graphics are absolutly chilling. It is, by far and away, the best looking (realism-based) video game I have ever played, and that graphical excellence adds a great deal to immersion. There is no "edge" in core mechanics, SC makes as Ass out of Metal gear with character control, seriously, I was a little shocked how clumsy snake was in comparison. Because Chaos Theory is so effin gorgeous (especially w/hdtv), and does such a good job at being realistic (except for the "I wonder what that was") stuff from the guards, it would be kinda silly to fight some fat end boss on freakin roller skates or have a gratuitous soundtrack, etc

MGS is brilliant in creating a parallell universe. Some of the most creative bosses of all time and has a story that is just convoluted enough to keep you interested, at least for me. So , like Lastword said, it kinda depends on your game preferences. Realism, or paralell universe. SC has the realism, MGS has the other. What would make either game series truly incredible is if MGS had a modern control scheme, or if Splinter Cell decided to actually have a plot besides killing terrorists. All things considered, it would probably be easier for MGS to improve.....but why havent they already done that?

Wan-Fu

09-23-2005, 02:09 PM

Those are some great ideas! Infiltrating a militia though? That's the current administrations base! If we wanted Sam Fischer to do the realistic work of US intelligence, we could have him infilitrate peace groups and Sierra Club meetings, you know, stand around, drink coffee, stealthily sneak a couple extra cookies, narc on old people and college kids, for freedom. And security.

The alien thing sounds more fun.

Thanks. Even funnier, right now Im at work, and I just had a little daydream where I pictured Sam infiltrating the Sierra Club!! Thanks Gad, it was a good little laugh. You know, Im as left as they come, but when you get around a lot of lefties, you can tell some of them dont shower every day. I dont know if its a nature thing or what.

What direction could Sam go that would interest you?

Mochan

09-23-2005, 02:24 PM

I don't know if you have played Chaos Theory, but the graphics are absolutly chilling. It is, by far and away, the best looking (realism-based) video game I have ever played, and that graphical excellence adds a great deal to immersion.

I've played it, I find that Far Cry trumps it in the graphics department.

The "feel of being a spy" sort of suffers a bit because its' third person rather than first person, but I can understand what you are trying to say: the same way I feel MGS is an experience, you also feel SC is an experience, although in a different way. I can relate to this, I've felt the same playing Thief: You are Garrett, Master Thief when you play Thief.

There is no "edge" in core mechanics, SC makes as Ass out of Metal gear with character control,

Character control -- I would call this as part of core mechanics.

So , like Lastword said, it kinda depends on your game preferences. Realism, or paralell universe.

My take is that the two aren't the same kind of game. This is really apples and oranges. But yes, preference comes down to tell you which game you like better -- the apple or the orange.

I do agree that MGS can be improved easily enough. The control and camera angles can definitely be improved, especially in 3. The freedom you get from FPS and TPS style games is just beyond what you get in fixed camera systems, and the feel you get from them is also quite different. Well it depends on whether Kojima wants to do so, or stick to the third person cinematic style.

Gadfly2317

09-23-2005, 02:29 PM

Thanks. Even funnier, right now Im at work, and I just had a little daydream where I pictured Sam infiltrating the Sierra Club!! Thanks Gad, it was a good little laugh. You know, Im as left as they come, but when you get around a lot of lefties, you can tell some of them dont shower every day. I dont know if its a nature thing or what.
Sometimes, when you're really high, you just forget to shower. Conversely, sometimes you take a three hour bath, not realizing you put the Enya CD on repeat.

What direction could Sam go that would interest you?
They just need to make the game for the fans; they can't change the formula. Your time travel alien thing sounded great. But how does that fit Splinter Cell, and its world-police propaganda, having you do things like subverting the internal politics of East Timor? I guess I would enjoy if they made it more realistic, had you sending Anthrax to reporters, or like you said, do a retro and have you carry out the big assaninations of the 60's like Malcolm X, MLK, the Kennedies, peace activists.

thelastword

09-23-2005, 03:59 PM

A fixed camera angle game is not necessarily the lesser game over a free-look game, they are just very different games. There are a lot of great games with fixed camera angles, and what that adds is a more dramatic and cinematic game experience, i.e. Eternal Darkness, Killer 7, Fatal Frame. I don't know anything about the sequels, but the first Splinter Cell bored the crap out of me, I never did get what the big draw was. I suppose someone could always blame it on I was playing the GC version with sticky bombs and a GBA radar. One of the games you forgot to mention is God Of War, You basically have no control of the camera, but it was so well done. So yes, controlled or free cameras can be more appropriate and work better for certain games, also, the option of lots and varying cameras may also be a worthwhile option, where devs can allow the gamer to choose what's best for him/her. At the other end of the coin though, Devs may feel that if too much cam control is given to the gamer that they may miss crucial level/game advancement clues, hence why they do take the camera away sometimes to flesh out the stories or the experiences they would like to advance.

The way I see it, there will always be room for improvement no matter what. As long as technologies get better and experience is gained. New thoughts and ideas will come to roost, thereby, improving on our current gaming mechanics, graphics, physics, audio etc..For some reason, I do not forsee any barricades towards advancement in this gaming industry for too long, as there will always be a set of innovators, a set of tech geniuses, a set of good story tellers, developers and directors to push things along, into newer more exciting territory. So I do believe we're going to have some unbelieveable experiences next gen, It just so happens, that some of the most notable gaming experiences comes with no hype and show, so we ought to be on the look out for these as well.