Just the Games Dammit...

[Wan-Fu]

I'm tired. There is no way to prove either the 360 or the ps3 will have better looking games or will provide a truly next-gen gaming experience until the consoles launch, or at least the 360. Screenshots, blurry scans, semi-random developer claims and dubious videos only cloud the issue further and rarely reveal either the true poetry of a game in motion, or make a definitive statement concerning the strength(s) of the respective hardware.

So, I am here to talk about the games of the competing next-gen. Not necessarily what games will look the best, but possible advances in gaming genres and gameplay itself. What do we have to look forward to that is truly a generational leap ahead? My 360 no-standard hard drive hangover is JUST clearing up, as I thought the standard HD MIGHT provide a catalyst for new, and or experimental games, but that ain't happenin.

Frankly, I don't have ANY examples of gameplay or genre-blending games that provide brand new experiences. As much as I love Halo or even Silent Hill, I can only hit that magnum headshot so many times, or find that decapitated doll with the key in the severed head so many times, no matter how beautiful the covenant blood splatter may be in 1080i, and no matter how haunting and lifelike that doll may look. Beyond a very, very pretty more of the same, nothing is really tempting.

We have Condemned, which is apparently a CSI/Clarice Starling First person beat-em-up, and I guess that's cool, and Frame City killers which has some genre bending ability, but by in large, sequels with long-in-the-tooth roman numerals seem to be the norm.

Why can't I PLAY a season of battlestar galactica, star trek TNG, or even Deadwood? Weekly, Bi-weekly or even monthly downloads with new plot twists and endless ways to play how you want seems technically possible. Episodic gaming would be the ultimate in male soap operas, yet I see nothing on the horizon. Why cant we have games where the main lead is unapologetically and non-flamboyantly gay, and not use it as a gimmick, but encounters homophobia amongst his fellow officers or whatever the game calls for and choices must be made that affect gameplay/outcome and are in essence an essay on society. I want more humanity out of my characters, more emoting, not just a strong silent marine or a geeky spellcaster. I am also open to great AO games that aren't part and parcel of pubescent fantasy. Just something different..

[Mochan]

I am against episodic gaming and the implications such a scheme would have.

That not withstanding, your best bet will be Oblivion as far as I'm concerned. Play how you want with new circumstances every time? That's what it's supposed to be. Bethsoft is incorporating a new AI algorithm called Radiant AI which supposedly controls NPC actions by dynamically weighing the objectives and needs of individual NPCs. The point is to create a living breathing world that acts without predefined scripts. The game itself blends FPS perspective with typical RPG exploration and questing and now they seem to be beefing up the realtime action combat element to console action hack&slash levels. Smells like a good bet to me.

Another would be STALKER but that's on PC only so I'll leave that at that. What's AO?

I'm sure there are some other new games to come out there. Oh and you want "gay" leads? Play Gundam Seed, lol.

[Wan-Fu]

I am against episodic gaming and the implications such a scheme would have.

That not withstanding, your best bet will be Oblivion as far as I'm concerned. Play how you want with new circumstances every time? That's what it's supposed to be. Bethsoft is incorporating a new AI algorithm called Radiant AI which supposedly controls NPC actions by dynamically weighing the objectives and needs of individual NPCs. The point is to create a living breathing world that acts without predefined scripts. The game itself blends FPS perspective with typical RPG exploration and questing and now they seem to be beefing up the realtime action combat element to console action hack&slash levels. Smells like a good bet to me.

Another would be STALKER but that's on PC only so I'll leave that at that. What's AO?

I'm sure there are some other new games to come out there. Oh and you want "gay" leads? Play Gundam Seed, lol.

what implications do you mean? I know a LOT of procedural kinks would need to be ironed out, and the devil is always in the details, but if it did fail and fall flat on its face, at least it was TRIED. I read about that radiant AI, and although replaying a game is never the same as playing through it the first time, that should make the second time around exponentially more interesting. AO means Adults Only----kind of like NC-17 movies. Gay Leads would be interesting, just like non-ghetto black leads would be, or a variety of other oft-ignored cultural perspectives which could inject life into the characters dimension

[Mochan]

Try a PC game called Kana Imouto. It's an AO game and it's in the graphic novel vein. You can run it on a piddly Celeron, hehhehe. If you can find a copy it might be interesting.

[Gadfly2317]

I'm tired. . .

Why can't I PLAY a season of battlestar galactica, star trek TNG, or even Deadwood? Weekly, Bi-weekly or even monthly downloads with new plot twists and endless ways to play how you want seems technically possible. Episodic gaming would be the ultimate in male soap operas, yet I see nothing on the horizon. Why cant we have games where the main lead is unapologetically and non-flamboyantly gay, and not use it as a gimmick, but encounters homophobia amongst his fellow officers or whatever the game calls for and choices must be made that affect gameplay/outcome and are in essence an essay on society. I want more humanity out of my characters, more emoting, not just a strong silent marine or a geeky spellcaster. I am also open to great AO games that aren't part and parcel of pubescent fantasy. Just something different..

I know what you are saying. That would be one way to improve the more traditional types of games we're seeing on the 360. I'm not a big fan of graphical realism in games, but that may be because that's the ONLY part where there's realism. Seriously, a game with the gritty authenticity of Deadwood would blow my mind. Even as good as I thought Eternal Darkness' game story was, it still could have been so much more.

speaking of something different, whatta you think of the possiblities presented by the Rev controller that was finally unveiled today?

[Mochan]

Speaking of playing through seasons of Battlestar Galactica and Star Trek and stuff like that, this is why gaming on the PS2 is such a joy. I've been playing through "seasons" of my favorite Super Robot shows in Super Robot Wars, heck they're seasons of *several* super robot shows all in one! There is also so much intellectual property licensing on the PS2 for anime faves, now I won't lie most of these titles are bad but some of them are actually very good like Berserk, Prince of Tennis Smash Hit, and Victorious Road.

I don't know what storyline the Gundam game on the 360 will be focusing on, if it will be remaking any part of the UC timeline at all (or whether it will be doing an original side story setting) but this is the kind of action I've always liked; playing with intellectual property can be done wrong but when done right it is a true pleasure, and we get these kinds of games all the time.

Of course, if you were going for a more "in season" experience through episodic content rather than just plain property licensing then of course that is another matter. The closest I guess would be seeing the serialized series on Super Robot Wars (a new story arc settng started with SRW Alpha, was continued in Alpha Gaiden, then Alpha 2 and finally now Alpha 3 -- each story arc was self contained but continues forward from the previous game) -- pretty similar to Xenosaga or Digital Devil Saga I guess.

[Wan-Fu]

I know what you are saying. That would be one way to improve the more traditional types of games we're seeing on the 360. I'm not a big fan of graphical realism in games, but that may be because that's the ONLY part where there's realism. Seriously, a game with the gritty authenticity of Deadwood would blow my mind. Even as good as I thought Eternal Darkness' game story was, it still could have been so much more.

speaking of something different, whatta you think of the possiblities presented by the Rev controller that was finally unveiled today?

Boy, nintendo. Once all of the fanboy gushing is out of the way, and the nintendo nostalgia falls to the wayside with practical concerns, my view is this: that controller is a glorified eye-toy/power glove/ds stylus gimmick, not a revolution. Now this prediction is just me flying blind without any information on how it would work in real time for flying games, Fps, Sports and rts/rpg's of course.

The problem is that Im lazy unless I am working out, most Americans are to a large extent. And lemme tell you, after 30 or 40 times swingin a lightsaber with that thing, hearts will beat out of chests like a rendition of 1812. I just don't wanna work to play a game, and what about multi-plats?? I suppose there would HAVE to be an alternate controller to play 3rd party games, and given a chance to play ANY games with a regular controller, the only people pulling out that thing will be little kids.

That being said, I wish the big N success. If they can manage to cover genres they have largely ignored, and can do it with that controller and provide a sweat-free gaming experience, Im all in. Change, innovation and revolution only work IF THEY WORK. A lot of people rally around poor gaming experiences (games) for the sake of them being innovative, not for the sake of them being good. Let's hope this thing is innovative and good

[Mochan]

The problem is that Im lazy unless I am working out, most Americans are to a large extent.

I'm lazy even when I'm working out, LOL!

Seriously though, most of the applications I can see for hte controller won't be as aerobically intensive as you are making it sound. Using it as a flight stick control or an FPS pointer isn't going to be very taxing. As a fishing stick control, it'll be no more taxing than using a real fishing rod, actually it'll be less taxing.

I don't think the cardiovascular concerns are anything to worry about other than for some real hardcore games that have you swinging it around like a lightsabre, and I'm sure even games like that will find their niche. I mean, DDR and all its ilk are doing great. It also makes a strange yet viable incentive for parents wanting to trim their kids down, if it comes to it.

Personally though I don't think you have to worry about rallying behind this "for innovations" sake rather than it being good. For FPS games at least I can see that it's not just novelty, but a very viable alternative to even the mouse/kb combo.

[Gadfly2317]

Boy, nintendo. Once all of the fanboy gushing is out of the way, and the nintendo nostalgia falls to the wayside with practical concerns, my view is this: that controller is a glorified eye-toy/power glove/ds stylus gimmick, not a revolution. You could be right. I don't think it's fanboy gushing though, when someone like I-virtual who posted the most depraved scat-pic ever photographed as a metaphor for his feelings about Nintendo says he is impressed. Renz and Mochan are no fanboys, and both had intelligent insight into how and why the control set-up could do much to elevate the way we interact with and control our games. What's funny, is that aside from virulent uninformed haters like TMG, the most articulate skeptic is Trebor, who's oft portrayed as a Nintendo fanboy.

The problem is that Im lazy unless I am working out, most Americans are to a large extent. And lemme tell you, after 30 or 40 times swingin a lightsaber with that thing, hearts will beat out of chests like a rendition of 1812. I just don't wanna work to play a game, and what about multi-plats??

I don't really think control with that will be as dramatic as the TGS clip suggests. It just looked cool. The control is said to be very sensitive; I'm almost positive you will be able to control things with subtle motion. Although in addition to remote-control jokes, the "sensitive wand" jokes are surely coming. Actually, the best jest I've seen so far about the controller is from the guys at Planetgamecube: "gamegirladvance is going to love this controller. Literally." (btw, www.gamegirladvance.com is a kick ass and intelligent game site--despite its name its not a nintendo fan site.)

A lot of people rally around poor gaming experiences (games) for the sake of them being innovative, not for the sake of them being good. Let's hope this thing is innovative and good

It has to be innovative AND good or that's the end of Nintendo. I don't think people rally around poor gaming experiences just because they are original or innovative.

[Mochan]

That European Nintendo guy in the article Gadfly linked also mentioned that there were times they tried innovation but flopped in sales, like that Virtual Boy thing. People aren't that stupid to flock around a poor gaming experience just because of novelty and innovation, so I think you don't have to worry there.

The real worry is whether Nintendo will be able to deliver any good games for it, and woo enough third party to support this unconventional design. There's a lot of potential but it's always the execution that counts. I think Nintendo can and will do it, but of course nothing is sure.

[Gadfly2317]

The real worry is whether Nintendo will be able to deliver any good games for it, and woo enough third party to support this unconventional design. There's a lot of potential but it's always the execution that counts. I think Nintendo can and will do it, but of course nothing is sure.

I would be a lot more skeptical if they weren't pulling off this well articulated philosophy with the DS. Everything in that article is centered around a gaming philosophy, decades of game-design experience, and the fact that this philosophy of gaming is panning out well in Japan.

But pardon me if I'm cynical about most Americans knowing their ass from a hole in the ground though. I don't expect it will do as well here.

[Mochan]

That's the other concern: whether the gaming public is ready for such a change.

The typical American gamer is more likely to be wowed by stuff like the Killzone and possibly the MGS4 trailer, Gears of War, i8, etc. than something like this. I mean even we on this board ended up talking a lot about these trailers (Killzone in particular).

Japanese gamers are more likely to be wowed by fun, familiar expressions rather than high-budget trailers -- in the US the sometimes I feel the boxoffice war is fought in the movie trailers and not in the movies themselves. But have you seen how Japanese gamers react to trailers like the Super Robot Wars Alpha 3 or Namco x Capcom trailers? They go, "ooh! Ah!!!" like no tomorrow, and the production values weren't even that good! This doesn't mean they're ready for more innovation or anything like that but there is less emphasis on big-budget goodness and more on the fun.

[Wan-Fu]

That European Nintendo guy in the article Gadfly linked also mentioned that there were times they tried innovation but flopped in sales, like that Virtual Boy thing. People aren't that stupid to flock around a poor gaming experience just because of novelty and innovation, so I think you don't have to worry there.

The real worry is whether Nintendo will be able to deliver any good games for it, and woo enough third party to support this unconventional design. There's a lot of potential but it's always the execution that counts. I think Nintendo can and will do it, but of course nothing is sure.

Man, i don't know. Slowly and perhaps righteously, the quiet grumbling that gaming has gone stale and flatlined into sequelitis and unoriginal cookie-cutter pablem has grown into a roar. People-- at least the "hardcore" gamers are more than eager to jump at the scent of anything not down the beaten path to escape the reality of sequelitis and "xtreme" gaming, but also to reclaim a gaming identity as being avant-garde. You know the forum types who wax poetically about rez and ico every chance they can and use the most obscure gaming refernces to appear like they are the hardest of the hardcore. Not that rez and ico arent great games, but I think you know exactly what I mean.

I think a lot of people are going to jump on this innovation bandwagon if it is good or not and will either move on to the next quirky thing if the controller suceeds in the mainstream, and even better, if it flops, they can tell everybody who questions their diehard defense of the wonder remote that they don't "get it" , that people aren't "real gamers", that they are the keepers of the innovation flame, etc etc.

All I can do is congratulate nintendo for trying. Delivering the games is a good issue. It doesn't matter how I can control Mario Bros or kirby, or most of their flagship IP's- I AINT PLAYIN EM ANYMORE, and I sure as hell ain't alone. I hope they dont rely on the wonder remote and just dole out rehashes. That would be maddening.

[Mochan]

if it flops, they can tell everybody who questions their diehard defense of the wonder remote that they don't "get it" , that people aren't "real gamers", that they are the keepers of the innovation flame, etc etc.

Yes, those types can be annoying, aren't they? Unfortunately I have to admit I play that role every now and then myself. I think everyone does every now and then, but the difference is what they are defending, and how worth defending it is.

I mean, I still defend PC RPG games like Fallout and Arcanum. The creators of these titles have all but died... Tim Cain and his boys who did Fallout moved out of Interplay to make their own company, Troika which then produced Arcanum and some other RPGs. Troika is, well, now dead.

I lament this and I would like to say that gamers "just don't know a good game even if it bites them in the butt" and I think I'd be justified in saying so. In this particular example, what we are contending is "free form nonlinear open gameplay." That is, a game which lets you do anything you want to do, when you want it, how you want it.

People are talking about how Morrowind or even Fable offered the most non-linear, free-form open-ended gameplay available but in this respect Arcanum has them beat out. Maybe in respect to, say, Final Fantasy MW and Fable are better but they seem amateurish in comparison to Arcanum. In MW, if you killed a quest specific NPC you get an error message saying, "You have doomed the world by breaking the thread of prophecy blah blah" basically "reload now or you'll never finish the game." Basically you broke the game.

In Arcanum, you are given a ring at the start of the game which is prophecy tied blah blah and you need to track down its owner, blah blah. Well in Arcanum, you could throw away or sell the ring, kill, its owner, or overthrow his city with a rebellion and you would still be able to progress in the story and finish the game. Now that's free form non-linear open-ended gameplay!

But unfortunately most gamers didn't notice or appreciate this, I guess, because Troika is now dead.

Because I can relate to this, and I saw how Arcanum really was a revolutionary thing, I think if the Nintendo controller flops I would be justified in saying other people "just don't get it." Maybe not so far as saying they aren't "real gamers" or anything... because we do quantify what the controller is for.

I've noted that it has a lot of potential for FPS games (among other things) but those aren't the only games in existence; if you play nothing but fighting games like Tekken or DOA, you're still a "real gamer" and this controller probably won't be doing much for that genre.

The challenge I guess is not just to deliver some good games, but also to deliver good games that will appeal to more people. And these games better not just be Mario's Mansion or stuff like that, I agree! I enjoyed Super Mario 3 and all but man cannot live on Mario alone. At the very least other kinds of games have to come out as well.