Xbox 360 B/C Compatibility Illuminated [Archive]

Rogue Bounty Hunter

09-12-2005, 06:51 AM

Cuddly Knife

09-12-2005, 10:24 AM

I don't think it's too bad a deal when I know that most of the games that I still want to play on the XBOX will be put on the b/c list. I also heard a rumor about there being something where you can download a patch or some deal from Live to play other games not originally planned for b/c. Also, a lot of the games that will be coming out for the XBOX when the 360 is out will be multi-plat, so I can just get them on the PS2 or Cube, and get my next-gen original titles on the 360 until the PS3 and Revolution come out, then the cycle will begin again with all 3.

ThaMaskedGamer

09-12-2005, 11:08 AM

1up.com (http://xbox.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3143142)

Xbox 360 Backwards Compatibility Illuminated
How the 360 will play your Xbox games.
by Jane Pinckard, 08/24/2005

290 of 340 users recommend this story.
A lot of us have been wondering about the Xbox 360's backwards compatibility issue. Microsoft has announced that the Xbox 360 will be partially backwards compatible. What does that mean? Today we spoke with an industry source who shed some light on the subject.

One of the rumors floating around is that backwards compatibility will only work with a hard drive, which would have left Core systems out in the cold. As it turns out, that's only partially true. In many cases, the hard drive will indeed be necessary because you'll need an Xbox emulator file to sit on the hard drive (it's still unconfirmed whether this emulator comes pre-shipped on 360 hard drives but it is highly likely the case) and make your Xbox games 360-friendly. However, our understanding is that this isn't perfectly foolproof, and that it may not work in every single case.

What's especially interesting, though, is that select premium Xbox titles in the present and future are getting special treatment. We've learned that Microsoft is inviting some developers to make their current Xbox titles backwards compatible for both 360 SKUs -- that the games themselves will contain the Xbox 360 emulation code on them. In fact, certain Xbox titles already contain the code to boot up under emulation on the Xbox 360. Teams from Microsoft are helping developers with the project.

But resources are limited, so only triple A titles will get this kind of attention, and only products coming out in the window after the Xbox 360 announcement. Which ones? We have some hints, but nothing we can officially talk about yet. But don't worry, we're on the case.

Ryan O'Donnell contributed to this report.

Well, having future Xbox games compatible with 360 helps, but not that much if it's not going to be all future titles. I wish MS would stop BSing and make some sort of final announcement on b/c.

I don't understand why you guys don't understand how this is working. The XBOX and 360 are incompatiable. In order to make a XBOX game work on 360, that game will need some code to make it compatiable. So someone has to do that. That someone is either MS or the developer. If no one does it, the game won't work. Now, on the HDD MS is making a list of games compatiable by putting this code for these unknown games on the HDD. Then as they get around to it, they will keep adding titles by making the code for those titles downloadable on live, or by putting them on a CD that you can take home and transfer the files to your HDD.

What this article is saying, the new wrinkle, is that new games, say for example Half-life 2, will be developed for XBOX but have the necessary code for 360 also on the game disc itself. Thus enabling the game to work on 360, without the HDD. But this isn't entirely up to MS. If it is a 3rd party game, like Farcry, then it is up to the developer to take the extra time to encode their game with this "patch" that will allow it to run on the 360. Otherwise, the new game will join the long list of other games waiting to be patched by MS. So, it is common sense then that you can probably guess what games will be b/c via the HDD! All the old classics like Halo2 and DOA and Ninja Gaiden. Old games that didn't sell so well like Gunvalkyrie forget about it. You can guess what new games will be b/c straight from the game disc. Games like Halflife2, Rainbow6 Lockdown, FarCry, etc, anything expected to be a huge hit. New games that aren't expected to do well or are known garbage, don't count on them having 360 code on the disc or having MS later patch it and make it available to download. So, in a nutshell. Old popular games will be b/c via the HDD. New popular games will be b/c straight from the disc. If you want your old popular games to work on 360, you will need to buy the HDD.

theWacoKid

09-12-2005, 11:47 AM

All right, guys, this is what has been said by Steve Ballmer and Robbie Bach about b/c.

Will backwards compatibility be determined on sales if you proceed with the plan as you have? Will it just be the best-selling platinum hits?

I’d say it a little differently. I’d say what we will do is pick a set of titles and do all the technical work to get those to work. The truth is when you do some of those titles, you do get dozens to hundreds of other titles because you take any game that pushes the system and exercises it. If you can make backward compatibility happen for it, you’d handle any game that has a subset of what it does. So it’s wrong to say it’s about individual games, it’s right to say we’re going to prioritize the general purpose technologies based upon that which is in that league of games.

Bach: The other thing you can say is you can assume Halo and Halo 2 are fairly close to the top of the list… [laughter] for both the reasons Steve states. Because they’re top selling games and they’re some of the most technically complicated games…

Ballmer: ...so if you get those two, you’ll get a lot of other stuff.

Allright, that's the deal. You'll just have to wait to find out exactly how b/c is going to be implemented.

Rogue Bounty Hunter

09-12-2005, 11:47 AM

What this article is saying, the new wrinkle, is that new games, say for example Half-life 2, will be developed for XBOX but have the necessary code for 360 also on the game disc itself. Thus enabling the game to work on 360, without the HDD. But this isn't entirely up to MS. If it is a 3rd party game, like Farcry, then it is up to the developer to take the extra time to encode their game with this "patch" that will allow it to run on the 360. Otherwise, the new game will join the long list of other games waiting to be patched by MS. So, it is common sense then that you can probably guess what games will be b/c via the HDD! All the old classics like Halo2 and DOA and Ninja Gaiden. Old games that didn't sell so well like Gunvalkyrie forget about it. You can guess what new games will be b/c straight from the game disc. Games like Halflife2, Rainbow6 Lockdown, FarCry, etc, anything expected to be a huge hit. New games that aren't expected to do well or are known garbage, don't count on them having 360 code on the disc or having MS later patch it and make it available to download. So, in a nutshell. Old popular games will be b/c via the HDD. New popular games will be b/c straight from the disc. If you want your old popular games to work on 360, you will need to buy the HDD.

I don't think MS can just go by past sales for the old games just to make them compatible. I definitely wouldn't want to see crap like Enter the Matrix and Driv3r get a b/c patch just because it had high sales while a game like Mercenaries miss the patch since it didn't put up similar numbers (but was a much better game). I think almost all MS-published games will get patches, except for a few from the first years like Azurik.

What do you think about patches for games that will come out on both Xbox and 360, like GUN and NFS: Most Wanted? Will a dev or MS take time to make patches for those as well?

trebor

09-12-2005, 11:53 AM

I don't understand why you guys don't understand how this is working. The XBOX and 360 are incompatiable. In order to make a XBOX game work on 360, that game will need some code to make it compatiable. So someone has to do that. That someone is either MS or the developer. If no one does it, the game won't work. Now, on the HDD MS is making a list of games compatiable by putting this code for these unknown games on the HDD. Then as they get around to it, they will keep adding titles by making the code for those titles downloadable on live, or by putting them on a CD that you can take home and transfer the files to your HDD.

Translation: In order to play your favorite Xbox titles on the 360, said titles will need to be patched. If your favorite Xbox titles weren't particularly popular, don't expect a patch for "b/c".

Here's what Scott Henson, the Director of the Xbox Advanced Technology Group, had to say about backwards compatibility...

Backwards compatibility is not a standard feature, so you know what Sony and Nintendo are going to say about the Xbox 360 backward compatibility capabilities: how do you respond?

Scott Henson: We've announced our plans for backwards compatibility in the next-generation while our competitors are still brainstorming its execution. It's one thing to talk about a feature, it's another to follow through with it. Let's chat next holiday when our competitors are finally readying their console launches to see how well they match their promises.

http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1289/Xbox-360-The-SKU-Interview/p1/

Ain't that a hoot? I wonder if he said that with a straight face.

Seriously ironic since, A) M$ announced b/c, while still brainstorming it's execution, and B) Sony and Nintendo have already proven their commitment and ability to b/c, through the Ps2 and the GBA/DS - all of which are truly b/c.

Good times. :rolleyes:

trebor

09-12-2005, 12:00 PM

p.s. forum glitches are fun!

ThaMaskedGamer

09-12-2005, 01:16 PM

Translation: In order to play your favorite Xbox titles on the 360, said titles will need to be patched. If your favorite Xbox titles weren't particularly popular, don't expect a patch for "b/c".

Here's what Scott Henson, the Director of the Xbox Advanced Technology Group, had to say about backwards compatibility...

http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1289/Xbox-360-The-SKU-Interview/p1/

Ain't that a hoot? I wonder if he said that with a straight face.

Seriously ironic since, A) M$ announced b/c, while still brainstorming it's execution, and B) Sony and Nintendo have already proven their commitment and ability to b/c, through the Ps2 and the GBA/DS - all of which are truly b/c.

Good times. :rolleyes:

I can't believe you mentioned Nintendo with a straight face, lol, as if the GC was b/c. Anyway, this is what B/C is on the 360, i'm not trying to sell it, just trying to explain it. I mean, it really doesn't matter what Sony and Nintendo are doing if you want to play old XBOX games. It is not like the PS3 or Revolution are going to play XBOX games. So, if you are concerned about playing old XBOX games in the next gen, you will either do it by keeping your old XBOX or buying 360 and dealing with limited support. It really has nothing to do with Sony or Nintendo. What are you going to do, buy a Revolution to teach MS a lesson, when you really want to play XBOX games and LIVE?

trebor

09-12-2005, 01:29 PM

I can't believe you mentioned Nintendo with a straight face, lol, as if the GC was b/c. Anyway, this is what B/C is on the 360, i'm not trying to sell it, just trying to explain it. I mean, it really doesn't matter what Sony and Nintendo are doing if you want to play old XBOX games. It is not like the PS3 or Revolution are going to play XBOX games. So, if you are concerned about playing old XBOX games in the next gen, you will either do it by keeping your old XBOX or buying 360 and dealing with limited support. It really has nothing to do with Sony or Nintendo. What are you going to do, buy a Revolution to teach MS a lesson, when you really want to play XBOX games and LIVE?

Err..the Gameboy Advance is b/c with all Gameboy titles and the NDS is b/c with all GBA titles, so...I'd say Nintendo is rather dedicated to b/c. And the GC is physically incapable of playing N64, or earlier, titles due to the physical limitations, i.e. no cartridge slot.

I think that's a better excuse for the GC then the half-baked excuses coming from M$ regarding 360 b/c.

Either way, it seems like the only guarantee that one has to play Xbox1 titles is owning an Xbox1. There is no incentive for non-Xbox owners to buy a 360 other then the titles coming out for the 360. Whereas there is incentive for non-PS2 owners to buy a PS3, because there is a massive PS2 library to explore.

Jupiter_x

09-12-2005, 02:24 PM

Err..the Gameboy Advance is b/c with all Gameboy titles and the NDS is b/c with all GBA titles, so...I'd say Nintendo is rather dedicated to b/c. And the GC is physically incapable of playing N64, or earlier, titles due to the physical limitations, i.e. no cartridge slot.

Agreed, and at least Nintendo gave us some old Nes, Snes and N64 ports and even a Gameboy player so we could play almost all our beloved Nintendo classics.

I think that's a better excuse for the GC then the half-baked excuses coming from M$ regarding 360 b/c. I personally think what M$ is attempting to conjure up in terms of B/C is pure jokes.
Masked Gamer says "It really doesn't matter what Sony and Nintendo are doing if you want to play old XBOX games. It is not like the PS3 or Revolution are going to play XBOX games" Nooooooo, Really?????:rolleyes:

But at least the machines that Sony and Nintendo are making are fully backwards compatible, out of the box, without any restrictions or limits. There will be no question in anyone's mind that upon purchase of PS3 that: DMC series, Killzone , GOW, R&C series, J&D series, FF series, Socom Series. Plus we get all the 3rd party games: Darkwatch, Madden, Tony Hawk, Psychonaughts, bla bla bla...to play on our slick new PS3 systems...From Day One!!!
Rev will even be able to play all the first and 3rd party classics too. Yet poor M$ is having such difficulty...and they only have 2 systems so far...ROFL...idiots!

Either way, it seems like the only guarantee that one has to play Xbox1 titles is owning an Xbox1. There is no incentive for non-Xbox owners to buy a 360 other then the titles coming out for the 360. Whereas there is incentive for non-PS2 owners to buy a PS3, because there is a massive PS2 library to explore. . And all those Ps1 games too boot!
I think M$' Attempt at implementing B/C is totally redundant. What's the point really:confused:

trebor

09-12-2005, 02:33 PM

I think M$' Attempt at implementing B/C is totally redundant. What's the point really:confused:

Yeah, at least if they came out and said that the 360 wasn't b/c with Xbox1, then it would be one less thing to "wait and see" for.

Gadfly2317

09-12-2005, 03:51 PM

Full backwards compatibility for 360 would have been great. If I still had an xbox, I wouldn't want to keep both the xbox AND the 360 under my TV. I'd want to trade in my Xbox. But w/out any clarity on this, how can you?

As for someone like me who already got rid of the xbox, its still an issue. For all the bashing I've done of 360, a year from now the Ps3 may have a suck launch, a huge price, and the 360 might really get some real J-support, have a big price drop, or get something so blazingly new and original I can't pass it up. If that's the case, I would LOVE to be able to go back and pick up some of my faves like Panzer Dragoon Orta, Toe Jam and Earl III, and Stranger's Wrath. But will I be able to ? And if I can, how will are these games "emulated?" Will they be buggy?

Jupiter_x

09-12-2005, 03:53 PM

theWacoKid

09-12-2005, 03:54 PM

Seriously ironic since, A) M$ announced b/c, while still brainstorming it's execution, and B) Sony and Nintendo have already proven their commitment and ability to b/c, through the Ps2 and the GBA/DS - all of which are truly b/c.

Good times. :rolleyes:

Yip,yip, yip, bark, bark, bark. Nintendo has only done b/c on their handhelds which are very limited low spec hardware. They have not done it on console. Sony did b/c with the ps2 by sticking a ps chipset inside the ps2 and then years later using software emulation or so ken-san says. Unless sony is willing to add to their already bloated cost structure by adding a ps2 chipset inside the ps3, they're going to have the exact same problems as MS, perhaps even greater. Ps2 games probably make more direct calls to hardware than do xbox games. And the cell, although similar in design to the emotion engine is not a superset of the EE.

Scott Henson is right, let's wait until next holiday season when we see sony and nintendo looking to follow through on their promise of b/c. Of course, if you're a fanboy of limited mental resources, you're always going to automatically believe your vendor of choice. After all, would Iwata or ken-san lie to me. I trust those guys with my very life, and the life of my newborn child.

I don't say MS is going to pull it off, but I don't believe sony or nintendo anymore than I do MS. And histroy is history. That was then, this is now. But, hey, you keep on wearing those rose colored glasses and that little fanboy cap and waving the nintendo and sony rally towels if it makes you sleep better at night. Yip, yip, yip, bark, bark, bark, little doggie.

Jupiter_x

09-12-2005, 04:09 PM

Yeah, at least if they came out and said that the 360 wasn't b/c with Xbox1, then it would be one less thing to "wait and see" for.

Agreed, but still that would manage to piss people off! I just don't see what the problem is here. Ok it has been explained over and over, and yes we can get into the Intricacies of hardware, emulators, Hardrives, Images and compatability.Yet, in the end Sony and Nintendo are doing it...No grief, no question, no problem!!!
Again I ask M$, what's your problem? You have more than enugh $ to make this happen flawlessly! Nope, they just want attention, they want us to think...Hey! Xbox will be B/C in some way coooool! Same thing with PS2 ports, simply an attention grabber/Swayer! Get real!

Pandarbock

09-12-2005, 06:21 PM

Cuddly Knife

09-12-2005, 08:05 PM

All of the zelda 64 collectors discs are running nintendo 64 emulator software (ie ocarina of time, majoras mask and master quest).
Pfft, that means nothing. All the Midway Arcade Treasures, Capcom Collections, and Resident Evil 2 and 3 ports from the PS1 also run on the GCN. It doesn't mean the Cube was made to do so. It means that the emulation must be in the disc somehow.

Same for Ninja Gaiden Trilogy from the SNES onto the XBOX.

Fivespot

09-12-2005, 09:18 PM

Agreed, but still that would manage to piss people off! I just don't see what the problem is here. Ok it has been explained over and over, and yes we can get into the Intricacies of hardware, emulators, Hardrives, Images and compatability.Yet, in the end Sony and Nintendo are doing it...No grief, no question, no problem!!!
Again I ask M$, what's your problem? You have more than enugh $ to make this happen flawlessly! Nope, they just want attention, they want us to think...Hey! Xbox will be B/C in some way coooool! Same thing with PS2 ports, simply an attention grabber/Swayer! Get real!

This was a case of MS not understanding its market well enough to plan ahead and offer B/C. At the last minute when pressed for an answer on an issue they didn't foresee being an issue - MS announces it will be B/C with the top selling XBOX titles knowing full well they'll have to at least support those and will worry about how to do so later.

Which is why they haven't divulged info on how B/C would work until recently and then still were a bit vague with the details specifically on which games will work.

Just like Gadfly said, Xbox owners can't trade in the XBOX until they know which games or how many the 360 will support. This makes the $399 cost much more frustrating at least for me. I planned on trading my Box when this thing came out and may not even be able to do that which surely would have helped me cover some of the cost especially when including controllers, headsets, cables, accessories, a few games, etc....

ThaMaskedGamer

09-13-2005, 07:14 AM

Err..the Gameboy Advance is b/c with all Gameboy titles and the NDS is b/c with all GBA titles, so...I'd say Nintendo is rather dedicated to b/c. And the GC is physically incapable of playing N64, or earlier, titles due to the physical limitations, i.e. no cartridge slot.

I think that's a better excuse for the GC then the half-baked excuses coming from M$ regarding 360 b/c.

Either way, it seems like the only guarantee that one has to play Xbox1 titles is owning an Xbox1. There is no incentive for non-Xbox owners to buy a 360 other then the titles coming out for the 360. Whereas there is incentive for non-PS2 owners to buy a PS3, because there is a massive PS2 library to explore.

In your view I suppose. Also, the incentive to buy a 360 or a PS3 has nothing to do with old games. If gamers are basing their purchase on b/c they are misleading themselves. You buy a nextgen console for the games that will appear on that console and the services you will use on that console. Anything else is gravy. For example, I'm interested in PS3, and PS2 games don't matter AT ALL to me. In fact, PS2 games are exactly what would make me hesitate in buying a PS3. I'm waiting to see if their games will be different than their current games. Ditto for the 360 but for different reasons. XBOX games were current gen, PS2 games weren't. 360 and PS3 games both should be truly nextgen, but given past performance I give the benefit of doubt to Microsoft, not Sony. Sony has gotta prove it to me.

And also your spin about playing XBOX games is again, your spin. You will be able to play XBOX games on 360, just not everyone, mainly the most popular ones. Again, is it perfect, of course not. And your assessment that GC couldn't play N64 games cause of the media is false, Nintendo could have designed an interface. That is easier than having the complete computing architecture change, which is what MS faces. And before you say it is stupid do that, Nintendo is designing some kind of dongle you will have to buy for the revolution to make it play DVD movies and they are designing some type of controller than can be reconfigured by the user to suit a particular game.

trebor

09-13-2005, 07:28 AM

Yip,yip, yip, bark, bark, bark.

Oh, are you still here? :rolleyes:

Nintendo has only done b/c on their handhelds which are very limited low spec hardware. They have not done it on console.

Not true, Silly Wabbit.

I got Ocarina of Time as a pre-order bonus for Wind Waker, back in the day, and it seems to run just fine. Plus, there was the Zelda collectors disc that also was emulated to run on the GC hardware.

So, I guess you're speaking out of your fictional ass again.

Sony did b/c with the ps2 by sticking a ps chipset inside the ps2 and then years later using software emulation or so ken-san says. Unless sony is willing to add to their already bloated cost structure by adding a ps2 chipset inside the ps3, they're going to have the exact same problems as MS, perhaps even greater. Ps2 games probably make more direct calls to hardware than do xbox games. And the cell, although similar in design to the emotion engine is not a superset of the EE.

I'm sure Sony won't have any problems adding a PS2 chipset inside the PS3 and adding that to the overall cost of the unit. Kenny already said it'll be pricey, so...do you have a point???

Scott Henson is right, let's wait until next holiday season when we see sony and nintendo looking to follow through on their promise of b/c. Of course, if you're a fanboy of limited mental resources, you're always going to automatically believe your vendor of choice. After all, would Iwata or ken-san lie to me. I trust those guys with my very life, and the life of my newborn child.

Kinda like how you, "theWacoKid", believed that the 360 would come with HDD, Component cables, and wireless controllers because M$ said they would all be "standard out of the box"?

Silly Wabbit.

I don't say MS is going to pull it off

Then why are you even opening your fictional pie-hole?

trebor

09-13-2005, 07:36 AM

In your view I suppose. Also, the incentive to buy a 360 or a PS3 has nothing to do with old games. If gamers are basing their purchase on b/c they are misleading themselves. You buy a nextgen console for the games that will appear on that console and the services you will use on that console. Anything else is gravy. For example, I'm interested in PS3, and PS2 games don't matter AT ALL to me. In fact, PS2 games are exactly what would make me hesitate in buying a PS3. I'm waiting to see if their games will be different than their current games. Ditto for the 360 but for different reasons. XBOX games were current gen, PS2 games weren't. 360 and PS3 games both should be truly nextgen, but given past performance I give the benefit of doubt to Microsoft, not Sony. Sony has gotta prove it to me.

Dudeman, you need to look at this from outside of your own personal perspective. Anybody who DOES NOT own a Xbox right now would have more incentive to buy a 360 if they knew they could pick up some games they missed. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

For instance, the single Xbox game I coveted the most this gen was Crimson Skies, but it was by no means a popular title...in fact, it sold terribly. If I knew that by buying a 360 I was guaranteed the ability to play this unpopular title, then the 360 would be that much more enticing to me.

Mochan

09-13-2005, 07:48 AM

trebor

09-13-2005, 07:55 AM

Gadfly2317

09-13-2005, 08:02 AM

I think the entire b/c issue is overblown. I've said it before, and TMG said it as well: you buy nextgen systems for nextgen games! For some it's a consideration to play old favorites on a new platform but personally I have way too much backlog to even consider playing old games over again on a new system. Maybe to play some games I missed out on (like how I missed Ninja Gaiden and Zelda this gen) but far more likely I'll just forget about those and play next gen Ninja Gaiden and Zelda instead.

If I get a 360 I'm not going to look back and think, "I gotta get Ninja Gaiden and Halo2 for it!" I'm just going to think, "I gotta play Blue Dragon, Halo 3, Gears of War!" When I get a PS3, I'm not going to think, "Gotta play God of War and FFXII" I'm gonna think "I want I8 and Heavenly Sword!"

It's not overblown. No one is saying its a total deal-breaker, but there are enough people who DO care that it is a factor worth looking at. Ps3 will be B/C. DS is B/C. Revolution will be B/C. The BIGGEST factor is current Xbox owners who have titles that are not stale yet, that they are still playing on live. Xbox is not an old system. Making the jump to 360 is a LOT easier if you can trade in your Xbox. But without b/c--if particular titles you love aren't included--whatta you do? Keep the Xbox AND buy a 360? Bogus.

Sure, we all most anticipate the new titles, but older titles are nice, especially early on when the new ones are all so expensive. And there are always older pick-up and play titles that never get old, like Super Smash Brothers, Mario Golf, Super Monkey Ball and Ikaruga. It's titles like those that coupled with Backward Compatibility make the Revolution a consideration in the first place. I'm sure Xbox owners would like the same kind of assurance.

People are copping out "well Gamecube wasn't b/c." Well, that's not exactly a great defense for the 360 is it, considering GC is in third place? The Rev's B/C all the way to the NES, though. . . huge selling point, even if what I'm really looking forward to is a new SSBM online and whatever crazy secret new thing Miyamoto dreams up for the Revolution.

Mochan

09-13-2005, 08:23 AM

I do see the point of getting a 360 to play previous XBox titles I may have missed out on. I certainly want to play Ninja Gaiden Xbox at one point in my life and if the 360 lets me do so, it could only make the deal sweeter.

I'm just saying it's not a primary consideration at all. It's extra icing but not the cake.

I do understand that a lot of people factor it in to the purchase decision... it's the mere fact that a lot of people factor it (the mere act of factoring!) that I call it overblown. For me, it shouldn't even be a factor at all, but it is. Well, I'm weird like that I guess.

That said, I am 100% confident that Nintendo can deliver on its b/c with all previous platforms. It's not hard.

Emulators for the PC already exist for everything from NES to N64 (aha! One Up for the PC Lol), and I'm sure they can get the GC to work easily enough on the Rev. It should be easy enough to get an emulator for NES-N64 running on the Rev.

PS3 may be a different story but I doubt Sony is going to blow this particular promise. We're arguing history here. The PS2 got b/c to a tee with no hassles whatsoever, and I doubt that the PS3 will be any different.

Now XBox has no history of success on this front but they are already falling apart on the issue even before launch.

mandark

09-13-2005, 10:04 AM

I do see the point of getting a 360 to play previous XBox titles I may have missed out on. I certainly want to play Ninja Gaiden Xbox at one point in my life and if the 360 lets me do so, it could only make the deal sweeter.

I'm just saying it's not a primary consideration at all. It's extra icing but not the cake.

I do understand that a lot of people factor it in to the purchase decision... it's the mere fact that a lot of people factor it (the mere act of factoring!) that I call it overblown. For me, it shouldn't even be a factor at all, but it is. Well, I'm weird like that I guess.

You also have to consider gamers who have never owned an X-box. Gamers like myself and millions of others who passed on the X-box this gen. Backwards Compatibility is a big selling point. There are numerous Xbox games that I would like to try and play. Having one console that can play older and next gen games is very advantageous. And lets admit it. There will not be a flood of 360 games coming out of the pipes regardless of MS propaganda. So to be able to play the old Xbox games while waiting will be a definite plus.
Lastly, wouldn't backwards compatibility be a big plus for MS's gaping money pit that is the Xbox hardware? Shouldn't increased software sales help them?

Mochan

09-13-2005, 10:13 AM

mandark

09-13-2005, 10:33 AM

I can relate to the b/c deal, though.

The Rev though looks like an incredibly sweet deal! I've missed out on Nintendo for the past 2 gens and to be able to play both N64 and GC games would be really good. I dunno, but for some reason the deal seems sweeter on the Nintendo side than it does on the Microsoft side. I wonder why? Is it because the Rev's promise is 20 years worth of gaming compared to MS's 4? This shouldn't be that big a deal since I've already said that I don't have much time to be playing old games, and that I will want to focus on current gen.

Yet somehow something in me tells me that b/c for Nintendo is a big deal. While it isn't for the XBox. And then to complicate the angle, I say that I prefer next gen games to older ones yet on the PC I am digging up older games like Vietcong and Call of Duty!

I seem to be a messed up pile of contradictions on this issue.
Maybe you are feeling this way towards Nintendo for the same reason most of us have stuck with the Nintendo franchise. Nintendo games are unique to the genres they represent. There is always that quality that distinguihes their franchises from others. And that quality is the Fun Factor. And tack on the fact that most Xbox games are not really that unique and are available in one shape or another in some other platform. I have admitted in a previous post that I would like to play the Xbox games I've missed but if I think about it those titles can be counted between two hands, barely.

ThaMaskedGamer

09-13-2005, 10:36 AM

Dudeman, you need to look at this from outside of your own personal perspective. Anybody who DOES NOT own a Xbox right now would have more incentive to buy a 360 if they knew they could pick up some games they missed. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

For instance, the single Xbox game I coveted the most this gen was Crimson Skies, but it was by no means a popular title...in fact, it sold terribly. If I knew that by buying a 360 I was guaranteed the ability to play this unpopular title, then the 360 would be that much more enticing to me.

If you really look at what you are saying, it is easy to see that you are just blowing smoke up everyone's anus. First I am looking at it from a factual standpoint, not from a personal standpoint. You say anybody who DOES NOT own a XBOX right now would have more incentive if they knew they could pick up some games they missed. Well, from a factual stand-point, they can. They can pick some games that they missed with the 360, just not every game. Those are the facts, like 'em or not. What I was saying previously is that would be a dumb reason to buy a 360. No matter how much you like or dislike the XBOX games, you should buy a 360 based on how you think the 360 games are going to satisfy you.

But, back to your point, and how you are blowing smoke. You said the single XBOX game you coveted was Crimson Skies. Then why didn't you buy it then? Then maybe it would not have sold horribly, and it would have a better chance of being supported on 360. But, you did not buy that game, nor any XBOX games, nor an XBOX. So what makes anyone believe that if you didn't buy an XBOX when there was games you wanted to play, at a cheaper price than 360, that you will now buy an expensive 360 just to play those games you could have played? And if the ability to play Crimson Skies was going to be a decision maker for you, then I would say you are in the minority. Nobody is going to say, hmmm 360 better support my 1 favorite game of all time, or i'm not going to get the system. If so, then that person is not being very smart.

Now, we can remove your facade very quickly and see how much you are really enticed. Crimson Skies was a good game and it is a Microsoft published 1st party game. I highly doubt that they would not support this game on 360. So, assumming that Crimson Skies was supported, would you now buy the 360? I mean how much is this really going to entice you? Probably not very much as all in reality.

Look b/c is what it is on the 360. And consumers know the deal. If B/C is a <i>that</i> big a deal for anybody, they can either keep their current console and get a 360. Or just not get a 360. But like I said before, that is cutting off your nose to spite your face. PS3 nor Revolution will play those old XBOX games. So that is not gonna help. And unlike you, if a person had a bunch of old XBOX games, then there must be a reason why he liked XBOX and he'd be better served in the future on 360. But that isn't you, you are talking about a single game, nobody makes that kinda decision ove 1 game.

mandark

09-13-2005, 10:58 AM

But that isn't you, you are talking about a single game, nobody makes that kinda decision ove 1 game.
You are absolutely right. NOBODY makes that kinda decision over 1 game. A point MS clearly missed. A person will not decide to purchase a 360 based on backwards compatibility over one game. That person will decide to purchase either a REV of PS3 for backwards compatibility. You keep missing the point everybody is trying to make. If MS really wants to dominate the console market and reach "1 billion gamers" MS will have to pull all the stops and give what consumers want. Otherwise, MS will repeat history and remain second place to the PS3 if they do exactly what you suggest: That is to cater to the few instead of the masses.
Heck these are all free advice to MS from gamers. But do they listen? Nooooo.

ThaMaskedGamer

09-13-2005, 11:08 AM

You also have to consider gamers who have never owned an X-box. Gamers like myself and millions of others who passed on the X-box this gen. Backwards Compatibility is a big selling point. There are numerous Xbox games that I would like to try and play. Having one console that can play older and next gen games is very advantageous. And lets admit it. There will not be a flood of 360 games coming out of the pipes regardless of MS propaganda. So to be able to play the old Xbox games while waiting will be a definite plus.
Lastly, wouldn't backwards compatibility be a big plus for MS's gaping money pit that is the Xbox hardware? Shouldn't increased software sales help them?

Yeah Mandark, but isn't it really stupid to have stipulations of Microsoft or expectations, when you never even bought the console? First, obviously, they'd like to have full b/c. And sure, they have enough money to go back and put the code onto the HDD for every single game, to allow full b/c with the HDD. But would that really be a wise thing to do from an economic standpoint. No. No one is going to go through that much time and money just so 20 people can play Turok on 360 or 100 people can play JSRF 2. So, if they are going to select limited games, it is obvious they will choose games that are more popular, why? To make sure the games likely to be in peoples library are supported. Is this ideal, no? But we ALL know this is not the ideal way to do b/c, so get over it, this is the way b/c is with the 360.

Personally, I don't think you have a soap box to stand on. You did buy any xbox games. They could for example listen to you or listen to their current xbox users. I'm a current xbox user, I bought Jade Empire recently, I would rather have Jade Empire supported instead of Crimson Skies. I bought Crimson Skies years ago, finished it. I recently bought J.E. and would like to finish it on 360. I would rather have my input honored over Trebor, who would like Crimson Skies. Is this what MS is doing? Yes. How? Buy supporting the current games and the past popular games. Who made them popular? Gamers who supported XBOX, not gamers who didn't.

ThaMaskedGamer

09-13-2005, 11:23 AM

You are absolutely right. NOBODY makes that kinda decision over 1 game. A point MS clearly missed. A person will not decide to purchase a 360 based on backwards compatibility over one game. That person will decide to purchase either a REV of PS3 for backwards compatibility. You keep missing the point everybody is trying to make. If MS really wants to dominate the console market and reach "1 billion gamers" MS will have to pull all the stops and give what consumers want. Otherwise, MS will repeat history and remain second place to the PS3 if they do exactly what you suggest: That is to cater to the few instead of the masses.
Heck these are all free advice to MS from gamers. But do they listen? Nooooo.

If the current XBOX didn't cater to the masses and billions of gamers, how is simply putting its games on 360 going to do that? It is impossible, if XBOX couldn't do it. The only thing that is going to make 360 more popular than PS3 is 360 games. Everyone who now doesn't want a 360, for example people like you and Trebor, will have to be swayed by new games. Not the old games.

Basically what you want is for the 360 to be $299 with HDD, you want every single XBOX game supported on 360, anything else you want? Hmmm how about free XBOX LIVE service. How about $40 games. How about MS comes out and mows your lawn every week?

Hey right now, 360 isn't for you. That's the deal. And as the console goes forward, MS has to make it appeal to you with killer games. That is their approach. They know not everyone is going to be swayed with their launch decisions. But their plan is to get the sour taste outta those people's mouths with killer games. So now we have to sit back and see what they can do. Launch conditions are for XBOX die hards. People who currently prefer the XBOX over everything else. No doubt they have to win new fans and they think they can. But they don't think the way to do it is to put tons of money into the past generation. I agree with them. Especially when they gotta pay Nvidia for b/c, if I was in charge B/C would be off the table, not an option, period. Who knows this extra cost probably forced them to make the HDD not standard.

trebor

09-13-2005, 11:26 AM

If you really look at what you are saying, it is easy to see that you are just blowing smoke up everyone's anus. First I am looking at it from a factual standpoint, not from a personal standpoint. You say anybody who DOES NOT own a XBOX right now would have more incentive if they knew they could pick up some games they missed. Well, from a factual stand-point, they can. They can pick some games that they missed with the 360, just not every game. Those are the facts, like 'em or not. What I was saying previously is that would be a dumb reason to buy a 360. No matter how much you like or dislike the XBOX games, you should buy a 360 based on how you think the 360 games are going to satisfy you.

You need to go back and show me the post I made where I stated that people shouldn't buy a 360 for games specifically made for the 360. Please. Go for it.

Because ALL I SAID was that true b/c would be MORE INCENTIVE for people who DO NOT own an Xbox. Which it would be.

But, back to your point, and how you are blowing smoke. You said the single XBOX game you coveted was Crimson Skies. Then why didn't you buy it then? Then maybe it would not have sold horribly, and it would have a better chance of being supported on 360. But, you did not buy that game, nor any XBOX games, nor an XBOX. So what makes anyone believe that if you didn't buy an XBOX when there was games you wanted to play, at a cheaper price than 360, that you will now buy an expensive 360 just to play those games you could have played? And if the ability to play Crimson Skies was going to be a decision maker for you, then I would say you are in the minority. Nobody is going to say, hmmm 360 better support my 1 favorite game of all time, or i'm not going to get the system. If so, then that person is not being very smart.

Oh your logic is truly dizzying. Here is a bit of logic for you to ponder...

Being that Crimson Skies is the game I most coveted for the Xbox, one logically could assume that that is my favorite type of gameplay. Now, based upon that logic, one could also logically guess that since there is only game of that kind on the Xbox, then the majority of the Xbox library didn't suit my tastes.

Based upon YOUR logic, NOBODY SHOULD BUY A SYSTEM FOR 1 GAME. Hence, I didn't buy an Xbox for said 1 game, because it wasn't a very sound decision for me.

Now, we can remove your facade very quickly and see how much you are really enticed. Crimson Skies was a good game and it is a Microsoft published 1st party game. I highly doubt that they would not support this game on 360. So, assumming that Crimson Skies was supported, would you now buy the 360? I mean how much is this really going to entice you? Probably not very much as all in reality.

Actually, I only used Crimson Skies as an example of a game that I really wanted to play, that wasn't particularly popular for Xbox, so therefore couldn't be considered a "top" game. I never said I would buy a 360 if this 1 game was compatible with it, you're just putting words in my mouth, as usual.

You do know what I mean when I say the word "example", yes?

Look b/c is what it is on the 360. And consumers know the deal. If B/C is a <i>that</i> big a deal for anybody, they can either keep their current console and get a 360. Or just not get a 360. But like I said before, that is cutting off your nose to spite your face. PS3 nor Revolution will play those old XBOX games. So that is not gonna help. And unlike you, if a person had a bunch of old XBOX games, then there must be a reason why he liked XBOX and he'd be better served in the future on 360. But that isn't you, you are talking about a single game, nobody makes that kinda decision ove 1 game.

No see, consumers DO NOT "know the deal" and that is the problem, Son.

In fact, I defy you to prove ANY definitive "deal" concerning M$ and 360 b/c, backed up by factual quotes and links. All we know is that "top" Xbox games will be able to be played on the 360, but NOBODY knows which games those are.

trebor

09-13-2005, 11:27 AM

Yeah Mandark, but isn't it really stupid to have stipulations of Microsoft or expectations, when you never even bought the console? First, obviously, they'd like to have full b/c. And sure, they have enough money to go back and put the code onto the HDD for every single game, to allow full b/c with the HDD. But would that really be a wise thing to do from an economic standpoint. No. No one is going to go through that much time and money just so 20 people can play Turok on 360 or 100 people can play JSRF 2. So, if they are going to select limited games, it is obvious they will choose games that are more popular, why? To make sure the games likely to be in peoples library are supported. Is this ideal, no? But we ALL know this is not the ideal way to do b/c, so get over it, this is the way b/c is with the 360.

Personally, I don't think you have a soap box to stand on. You did buy any xbox games. They could for example listen to you or listen to their current xbox users. I'm a current xbox user, I bought Jade Empire recently, I would rather have Jade Empire supported instead of Crimson Skies. I bought Crimson Skies years ago, finished it. I recently bought J.E. and would like to finish it on 360. I would rather have my input honored over Trebor, who would like Crimson Skies. Is this what MS is doing? Yes. How? Buy supporting the current games and the past popular games. Who made them popular? Gamers who supported XBOX, not gamers who didn't.

Well, to put it simply, if M$ wants to entice non-Xbox owners over to the 360, they damn well better do some serious enticing.

Considering that current Xbox fans are more likely to buy a 360 regardless, I would think it would be in M$'s best interests to bend over backwards to get non-Xbox fans to jump on board - that ain't going to happen if they are only going to cater to their current fanbase.

Gadfly2317

09-13-2005, 11:30 AM

All we know is that "top" Xbox games will be able to be played on the 360, but NOBODY knows which games those are.

I would hope they'd go as much on quality (critical claim and fan enthusiasm) as on sales when deciding what to make b/c. Panzer Dragoon, Voodoo Vince, Oddworld/Strangers Wrath and Crimson Skies were all sales stinkers, but they really are jems in the line-up.

I love that. . . Masked Gamer saying "consumers know the deal." That's on par with him saying we can't criticise the launch line-up because it isn't here yet, and then going on to claim it's the best launch line-up in the history of gaming. :rolleyes:

ThaMaskedGamer

09-13-2005, 11:42 AM

You need to go back and show me the post I made where I stated that people shouldn't buy a 360 for games specifically made for the 360. Please. Go for it.

Because ALL I SAID was that true b/c would be MORE INCENTIVE for people who DO NOT own an Xbox. Which it would be.

Oh your logic is truly dizzying. Here is a bit of logic for you to ponder...

Being that Crimson Skies is the game I most coveted for the Xbox, one logically could assume that that is my favorite type of gameplay. Now, based upon that logic, one could also logically guess that since there is only game of that kind on the Xbox, then the majority of the Xbox library didn't suit my tastes.

Based upon YOUR logic, NOBODY SHOULD BUY A SYSTEM FOR 1 GAME. Hence, I didn't buy an Xbox for said 1 game, because it wasn't a very sound decision for me.

Actually, I only used Crimson Skies as an example of a game that I really wanted to play, that wasn't particularly popular for Xbox, so therefore couldn't be considered a "top" game. I never said I would buy a 360 if this 1 game was compatible with it, you're just putting words in my mouth, as usual.

You do know what I mean when I say the word "example", yes?

No see, consumers DO NOT "know the deal" and that is the problem, Son.

In fact, I defy you to prove ANY definitive "deal" concerning M$ and 360 b/c, backed up by factual quotes and links. All we know is that "top" Xbox games will be able to be played on the 360, but NOBODY knows which games those are.

I'll not respond to the first 3/4 of your post, just go read what I wrote to Mandark, it kind of applies. Basically, the 360 at launch isn't for you. Which leads me to your last section in your post. Consumers who choose to be informed, do know the deal. They know there will be limited support of xbox games on 360. As far as factual quotes as to what particular game, what difference does it matter when I already said I don't believe a particular game or any grouping of particular games will be a factor in whether someone will buy a 360. Also, you just stated that you also agree with this, being that you said the 360 games will sell the 360.

So, no one needs a list. You get the 360 based on the 360, and if it ends up that some of your XBOX games are supported, then cool that is great for that person. But given that we both agree that current games won't sell the system, there is no need to provide a list. I'm sure MS will come out with a list before launch, you guys always want info NOW NOW NOW. Well how about when they are finished? Plus, that list will grow over time as they keep releasing more patches.

ThaMaskedGamer

09-13-2005, 11:49 AM

I would hope they'd go as much on quality (critical claim and fan enthusiasm) as on sales when deciding what to make b/c. Panzer Dragoon, Voodoo Vince, Oddworld/Strangers Wrath and Crimson Skies were all sales stinkers, but they really are jems in the line-up.

I love that. . . Masked Gamer saying "consumers know the deal." That's on par with him saying we can't criticise the launch line-up because it isn't here yet, and then going on to claim it's the best launch line-up in the history of gaming. :rolleyes:

Well, the best launch line-up thus far, had to be XBOX. PGR, Oddworld, DOA, Halo, and all the other stuff like Madden, Fuzion Frenzy, etc. Now I said the 360 launch line up would be better. You where criticizing the line-up for lack of new titles, idiot.

trebor

09-13-2005, 11:58 AM

Consumers who choose to be informed, do know the deal. They know there will be limited support of xbox games on 360.

Well, that's a problem, because M$ didn't say "limited b/c" they said "the 360 is b/c", so therefore consumers will assume that the 360 is b/c, which I'm sorry to tell you, isn't truly b/c.

So, what consumers really have is a massive cluster-fark of confusion regarding: which system is b/c compatible out of the two skus, which Xbox1 titles will be compatible with the 360 b/c, and when the said titles will actually get patched to be b/c.

Sorry chum, but that ain't too informative.

mandark

09-13-2005, 12:07 PM

No. No one is going to go through that much time and money just so 20 people can play Turok on 360 or 100 people can play JSRF 2. So, if they are going to select limited games, it is obvious they will choose games that are more popular, why? To make sure the games likely to be in peoples library are supported. Is this ideal, no? But we ALL know this is not the ideal way to do b/c, so get over it, this is the way b/c is with the 360.

Personally, I don't think you have a soap box to stand on. You did buy any xbox games. They could for example listen to you or listen to their current xbox users. I'm a current xbox user, I bought Jade Empire recently, I would rather have Jade Empire supported instead of Crimson Skies. I bought Crimson Skies years ago, finished it. I recently bought J.E. and would like to finish it on 360. I would rather have my input honored over Trebor, who would like Crimson Skies. Is this what MS is doing? Yes. How? Buy supporting the current games and the past popular games. Who made them popular? Gamers who supported XBOX, not gamers who didn't.
Oh, believe you me. I am way over how MS is handling their b/c issue. Its obvious that MS does not have a plan or just plain don't care. The competition is obviously putting priority over b/c. Sony knows it was a success, though not the primary factor, based on the PS2's market performance. So why not follow a winning formula.

I really feel sorry for MS if they are having the same attitude as you do. You look at me as a non-Xbox gamer so you say who cares about my decisions. But that is where you are really wrong now, aren't you? MS wants to expand their user base. And the only way to that is to go for people who are not Xbox users.

slade

09-13-2005, 12:20 PM

You look at me as a non-Xbox gamer so you say who cares about my decisions. But that is where you are really wrong now, aren't you? MS wants to expand their user base. And the only way to that is to go for people who are not Xbox users.

Annnnnd, that's a checkmate. :D

Mochan

09-13-2005, 12:26 PM

This all just a red herring, isn't it?

If anything, this is a red herring too: the "your game preference does not count because you didn't buy an XBox" argument. The argument was on the merits of this b/c, not whose gaming dollars have more weight. Let's not complain about red herrings if we're going to bring one up ourselves.

Well, the best launch line-up thus far, had to be XBOX. PGR, Oddworld, DOA, Halo, and all the other stuff like Madden, Fuzion Frenzy, etc.

Just for comparison's sake, does anyone remember what the NES launch lineup was? Or the Famicom launch lineup. And for that matter, what was the PS1 launch lineup? It's been so long ago I no longer remember.

T.Tashi

09-13-2005, 12:45 PM

trebor

09-13-2005, 12:50 PM

I don't know about people buying a console on the issue of b/c for one game. But I do know plenty of people that bought a console, for one game, or one game series. It's a natural occurance that they will purchase other games, but it was one game (or series) in particular that drove their purchase of the console. So, meh, I think it could happen.

Make me wonder how many Xbox owners bought their systems for Halo and Halo alone. If you subtract those numbers from the entire Xbox user-base, how many would you guess would be left? 3 - 4 maybe?

Gadfly2317

09-13-2005, 12:51 PM

Just for comparison's sake, does anyone remember what the NES launch lineup was? Or the Famicom launch lineup. And for that matter, what was the PS1 launch lineup? It's been so long ago I no longer remember.

Not "launch". . . . but "launch window." That's what MS is calling that list of games, but it refuses to define "launch window." Six months? A year?

Gadfly2317

09-13-2005, 12:51 PM

I

So, no one needs a list. You get the 360 based on the 360, and if it ends up that some of your XBOX games are supported, then cool that is great for that person. But given that we both agree that current games won't sell the system, there is no need to provide a list. I'm sure MS will come out with a list before launch, you guys always want info NOW NOW NOW. Well how about when they are finished? Plus, that list will grow over time as they keep releasing more patches.

You are highlighting just one of the MANY reasons to wait and not slap down a half-grand pre-ordering a console that isn't even finalized yet.

ThaMaskedGamer

09-13-2005, 01:46 PM

You are highlighting just one of the MANY reasons to wait and not slap down a half-grand pre-ordering a console that isn't even finalized yet.

Yes, and if you just read what I've written to Trebor and many other times in responses to your posts, I've said that the launch is NOT for everyone. We have no argument here. I completely agree that most people will not buy the XBOX 360 at launch. I completely agree that some people will hold b/c against MS. I completely agree that some people will hold the bundled price against MS. But, others, millions of others, perhaps 5 million others initially will not. That many, maybe more, will adopt the 360 at launch or during the launch window. And those individuals are the ones who are completely happy with XBOX, understand and agree with the hardware change, and for the most part want to continue their XBOX franchises and XBOX LIVE. For us, Revolution and PS3 aren't here and even when they get here are likely to not fill our plate with the kinds of games we want to play. That is what this all comes down to. Do you think the 360 will provide the future games you want to play? If not, then you don't buy and you take a wait and see attitude. But for everyone, Mochan, Mandark, Slade, who keep saying MS has to do more to expand the base. Yes, they have to do more, but not with current generation XBOX games. They could follow that approach, do everything to make 360 fully b/c and sink a lot of money into it, but that isn't going to save 360 2 or 3 years from now. 2 or 3 years from now, no one is gonna care about b/c, and that is where MS must focus its efforts and money. Will that hurt them now, in the short run, yes it will. But they believe they can win consumers over in the long run. I'm not asking you to agree that its gonna work, but just recognize the strategy, they aren't going to go broke trying to support XBOX games on 360.

Back to the launch games, I think GR3(GR2 86%), PGR3(PGR2 93%), Oblivion(Morrowind 90%), DOA4(DOA89%), and then the other known(Madden '06) and unknown(Japanese 360 games) launch games, which is rumoured to be in total about 15-20 day 1 games, will go down as the greatest launch, eclipsing the launch of XBOX. Now, that is just my opinion. I assume you think the GC or PS2 had better launches than XBOX. And I know you already don't think much of 360 proposed games. Oh I forgot PD0 might be a day 1 game too.

Anyway, I'm not trying to change people's mind about b/c, i'm just saying it is what it is. It is never going to be what you guys want it to be, so make your decision. And it sounds like you guys all have. I think consumers aren't being fooled, they know what the deal is, limited support. And i don't think that will sway the early adopters, I think they will look at it as an icing on the cake thing. Myself, since I have 2 XBOXes, I'll trade in one and keep the other. I have to keep 1 no matter what since my wheel for Forza won't work on 360. So that will be the Forza machine.

theWacoKid

09-13-2005, 01:56 PM

Yip, yip, yip, bark, bark, bark, woof, woof, woof. Looks like TMG got surrounded by some nasty little dogs suffering from distemper and is beating them off with a stick. Down boy, down. Simmer down, poochie. Here, fetch the stick. Stick, stupid, stick.

A bunch of yappers talking about b/c like it was so important. Hey, gadfly, how many ps1 games have you purchased? I haven't seen you mention even one in all the time you've owned a ps2, but b/c is like mundo important. What happened? I suppose when you bought your ps2, you were going, cool man, I'll be able to play all those ps1 games. So, which ones do you have. How many of the hypocritical sony boys play ps1 games anymore? Didn't think so. So, don't start feeding me this crap that b/c is a make or break deal. Because in 6 months to a year after the 360 launches, nobody is going to give a sh%&! B/c gives you that warm fuzzy feeling that you're covered, but the truth is even with the ps2's anemic initial lineup, I didn't use it much. I bought FFIX and FF tactics, and that was it.

If b/c is there for the 360 at launch, fine, bonus, if it isn't there, I doubt I'm going to miss it that much as I'll be playing the 360 library. MS will have something, and I guess something is better than nothing. But, this board is a joke. Hyocritical little weasels who have been slagging off the xbox and its games, calling it worthless, a hunk of junk, its library is crap now doing a reversal and oh, if the 360 had b/c with the xbox's crap library, I might consider the 360. LMAO! Who do you guys think you're fooling.

ThaMaskedGamer

09-13-2005, 01:58 PM

Make me wonder how many Xbox owners bought their systems for Halo and Halo alone. If you subtract those numbers from the entire Xbox user-base, how many would you guess would be left? 3 - 4 maybe?

Believe it or not, but there are a lot of people who never played Halo or didn't play it much. I've known a lot of people on LIVE, particularly when Halo got old, who were just new to XBOX and new to LIVE who had never played Halo. I'm sure most of those people probably played Halo2, or some probably went back at some point and played Halo 1. I still own Halo, simply cause the trade in wasn't worth anything. But Halo2, I traded that in after playing it on Heroic and Legendary and cooperative offline on Legendary with a friend. I played it online a handful of times, but prefer military shooters online. So unlike most, I think Halo2 was a better game single player. But I wasn't gonna play it a third time, so I traded it in while it was worth something.

trebor

09-13-2005, 01:59 PM

I think consumers aren't being fooled, they know what the deal is, limited support.

Do they, though? I'm not so sure consumers do know what the actual deal is. In fact, I bet if you asked 10 consumers, who are going to buy a 360 at launch, about b/c you'll end up getting 10 versions of M$'s b/c plan.

And i don't think that will sway the early adopters, I think they will look at it as an icing on the cake thing.

That's been my point all along - b/c is certainly the icing on the cake for non Xbox owners.

Myself, since I have 2 XBOXes, I'll trade in one and keep the other.

Well, there certainly isn't any doubt as to why you think b/c is so unimportant now, is there? :p

Mochan

09-13-2005, 02:17 PM

Gadfly2317

09-13-2005, 02:26 PM

A bunch of yappers talking about b/c like it was so important. Hey, gadfly, how many ps1 games have you purchased? I haven't seen you mention even one in all the time you've owned a ps2, but b/c is like mundo important. What happened? I suppose when you bought your ps2, you were going, cool man, I'll be able to play all those ps1 games. So, which ones do you have. How many of the hypocritical sony boys play ps1 games anymore? Didn't think so. So, don't start feeding me this crap that b/c is a make or break deal. Because in 6 months to a year after the 360 launches, nobody is going to give a sh%&! B/c gives you that warm fuzzy feeling that you're covered, but the truth is even with the ps2's anemic initial lineup, I didn't use it much. I bought FFIX and FF tactics, and that was it.

I repurchased both Oddworld games; had never gotten rid of N20 or Parappa the Rapper or Demolition Racer; bought Castlevania Symphony of the Night which I'd never played. Bought some goofy game called Incredible Crisis. Probably some other stuff I'm not thinking of. And if I ever see some title on a "Best of List" that I haven't played, I know I can go back and try it out. Plus it allowed me to get rid of my Ps1 instead of having two systems around doing the same task. And this coming YEARS after the launch.

Backwards compatibility at launch is even more vital when the titles are few and pricey. For me B/c with Rev is a major selling point because there are so many "keepers" in my GC library and I can replace an aging system. It'll be nice to not have to have both a Cube and a Rev to play the same games. Don't Xbox die-hards feel the same way? But wait, you aren't an Xbox die-hard, you trashed-talked the system, trash-talked Live, and sold your Xbox off for a PsP, so how you've convinced yourself the 360 is worth your time I'll never understand, especially considering how lucidly you've trashed the 360 in the past.

The 360, B/C is the same level importance as it is for GC and Ps2. No one has ever said this the #1 purchase factor, but its definitely a valid point. If you haven't had an Xbox and the 360 is the first next-gen system here, it'd be nice as hell to be able to pick up the Xbox titles you missed.

If b/c is there for the 360 at launch, fine, bonus, if it isn't there, I doubt I'm going to miss it that much as I'll be playing the 360 library. Oh cut the crap; you'll be playing "the 360 library." You yourself said you probably are only purcahse a couple games because they're so expensive; b/c at launch gives gamers something to play and allows the to get rid of their xbox and keep their game library. But YOU, you've damn near traded everything you've got to get a 360; you traded in your GC, and you traded in your Xbox to get a PsP, and before the PsP even had a chance to get through a year you took a hit on it by trading it in for a 360. Smart shopper there. Yeah, I see why you think the 360 is such a smart deal :rolleyes:

its library is crap now doing a reversal and oh, if the 360 had b/c with the xbox's crap library, I might consider the 360. LMAO! Who do you guys think you're fooling. You are a continual flurry of confusion Waco. YES, we've slagged off the Xbox library as being the weakest most shallow line-up. BUT, virtually everyone here acknowledges that there also some real jems there. That makes b/c even more important as maybe combining the two libraries would finally make the system worthwhile to people who'd previously passed it by. And perhaps this is a non-issue; perhaps MS will come-out and give a straight forward answer and what kind of actual b/c we're gonna see. Personally, it seems kinda dumb to lay out money for a pre-order on a console from a company who two months prior to launch doesn't even know what its' system is going to be capable of.

joquito

09-13-2005, 02:35 PM

Without B/C the gamer starts from the beginning again. With B/C, there is the notion of upgrading rather than replacing. Starting from scratch underline one's freedom to buy another console. This is still a growing market and retaining buyers is more important than ever. We all agree that very few use the feature, but one is a fool to overlook the value consumers see in it. It like oversized meals. People see value in MORE even if they can't or won't consume it all.

MS promotes B/C because of its selling power even if its done half-assed. I don't have a problem with it anymore but I do understand why current xbox owners gripe about it. Xbox haters or those who don't own an Xbox complaining are just blowing smoke.

mandark

09-13-2005, 02:37 PM

So, which ones do you have. How many of the hypocritical sony boys play ps1 games anymore?
Just off the top of my head I am still playing Front Mission 3, Vagrant Story, Chrono Cross, and Final Fantasy Tactics off my PS2. Do I play with them everyday? No, I play when I have the time and depending on my mood. But I sure am glad that I don't need to hook up my PS1 just to play with them.

If gaming is all about new games, all the time, then there will be no reason for developers to come up with nostalgic games like Midways arcade series. A compilation of old games that some Xbox gamers around here praised. Sure it has nothing to do with backwards compatibility but proof enough that even Graphic induced gamers want to play obsolete games every now and then.

Mochan

09-13-2005, 02:55 PM

If not, then you don't buy and you take a wait and see attitude. But for everyone, Mochan, Mandark, Slade, who keep saying MS has to do more to expand the base.

Well, news to me that I've been talking about that, I've been in the "wait and see" camp since Day 1, and let's not forget I don't care much for b/c and I stated that in this thread. But while we're here I might as well say something. MS really does need to do more to expand the base, after all they're shooting for 1 billion.

And those individuals are the ones who are completely happy with XBOX, understand and agree with the hardware change, and for the most part want to continue their XBOX franchises and XBOX LIVE. For us, Revolution and PS3 aren't here and even when they get here are likely to not fill our plate with the kinds of games we want to play. That is what this all comes down to. Do you think the 360 will provide the future games you want to play?

And it's true, they really *DO* need to expand the base, and they themselves know it. You know well enough that the 360 isn't being made to cater to just current XBox fans. That's why MS is scrambling for Japanese support, is engaging in this ultra power/price war with Sony, and scrambling to get B/C in to be competitive with Sony.

And heck! Let's look at the B/C angle again. If anything, the 360 is being designed to target non-XBox users right now. The lack of concrete B/C plans could be seen as an utter disregard for the current XBox Fanbase. I mean, "hey they're already in our camp why do we need to go the extra mile to please them, they're on our side already." And this sure seems to fall in place with the Xbox-screw philosophy MS has adopted by canning the current box, stopping game production, etc. The mindset actually screams of "convert the heathen screw our own clan."

Now, that is just my opinion. I assume you think the GC or PS2 had better launches than XBOX. And I know you already don't think much of 360 proposed games.

I have no idea what the GC launch was like but I know that the PS2 launch stunk like natto. And what did you say you know? I'm sure I'm looking forward to Oblivion more than anyone else on this board (I've been a TES core fan from day 1 since Arena first came out) and I've stated several times on this board that I'm interested in the Japanese 360 titles like SRW, Blue Dragon, etc.

I'm just assuming that paragraph is aimed at me, since you were responding to the launch question that I posed.

I think consumers aren't being fooled, they know what the deal is, limited support

I think consumers have no idea how the b/c is going to work. Especially the average consumer. Heck, we're hardcore consumers who delve into every last scrap and detail of information on the subject and even we are not clear on how it will work and what it is supposed to work with. As mentioned, there's a lot of confusion regarding the 360 right now and that is never good for a company trying to sell its products.

It's not like the PS2 which was, "We have 100% b/c with PS1 games. Period." But of course, "The PS2 can control a nuclear missile!" doesn't help either.

Pandarbock

09-13-2005, 06:03 PM

Pfft, that means nothing. All the Midway Arcade Treasures, Capcom Collections, and Resident Evil 2 and 3 ports from the PS1 also run on the GCN. It doesn't mean the Cube was made to do so. It means that the emulation must be in the disc somehow.

Same for Ninja Gaiden Trilogy from the SNES onto the XBOX.

Ok but the snes and midway/ capcom arcade collections (which isn't actually coming to the gc only ps2/xbox) were all old sprite based systems which are fully emulated on such things as mame. The RE's 2,3 and CV are all actually ports and not emulation, but the zelda cllectors series are in fact emulating the nintendo 64 hardware and while I am not saying it is any thing close to as tough as emulating the xbox (x86) on completely different architecture all together (xbox 360/ ppc), it is in fact true nintendo 64 emulation. The point I am making is that nintendo already has (and has had for awhile) the emulation coded up in the gamecube, for at least 2 of its prior systems (nes and gamecube) and snes isn't much to do as PC snes emulation is darn near perfect.

slade

09-13-2005, 06:28 PM

How many of the hypocritical sony boys play ps1 games anymore?

Soul Edge (still the best game in the Soul series albeit it is slower then the others)
Omega Boost (still as good as the day I bought it)
Crash Team Racing (still go back to this one from time to time)
some of the games I'm still looking for are the original Silent Hill, Symphony of the Night, Parasite Eve and Parasite Eve 2.

The thing is I don't abandon games from the previous gen as quickly as some. It's not always about new experiences. That's like chasing a dream only to wind up chasing your own tail. And obviously there is a market for gamers like me as these compilation packages from different companies prove.

Gadfly2317

09-13-2005, 06:35 PM

Soul Edge (still the best game in the Soul series albeit it is slower then the others)
Omega Boost (still as good as the day I bought it)
Crash Team Racing (still go back to this one from time to time)
some of the games I'm still looking for are the original Silent Hill, Symphony of the Night, Parasite Eve and Parasite Eve 2.
.

Both of the Parasite Eve games are Ps1 games I intend to re-acquire.

You can find "new" in the old, too, stuff you haven't played. I'm sure the game companies wish we were all as obedient as Waco, disregarding budget older gaming and forking over on FAITH for the new. . . because FAITH is all you can call it when you pre-order a system the manufacturer can't even figure out. And its not like Xbox's performance on its last console inspired faith in many (take Waco for instance, who found it a huge dissapointment and sold it.)

theWacoKid

09-13-2005, 06:58 PM

I repurchased both Oddworld games; had never gotten rid of N20 or Parappa the Rapper or Demolition Racer; bought Castlevania Symphony of the Night which I'd never played. Bought some goofy game called Incredible Crisis. Probably some other stuff I'm not thinking of. And if I ever see some title on a "Best of List" that I haven't played, I know I can go back and try it out. Plus it allowed me to get rid of my Ps1 instead of having two systems around doing the same task. And this coming YEARS after the launch.

Backwards compatibility at launch is even more vital when the titles are few and pricey. For me B/c with Rev is a major selling point because there are so many "keepers" in my GC library and I can replace an aging system. It'll be nice to not have to have both a Cube and a Rev to play the same games. Don't Xbox die-hards feel the same way? But wait, you aren't an Xbox die-hard, you trashed-talked the system, trash-talked Live, and sold your Xbox off for a PsP, so how you've convinced yourself the 360 is worth your time I'll never understand, especially considering how lucidly you've trashed the 360 in the past.

The 360, B/C is the same level importance as it is for GC and Ps2. No one has ever said this the #1 purchase factor, but its definitely a valid point. If you haven't had an Xbox and the 360 is the first next-gen system here, it'd be nice as hell to be able to pick up the Xbox titles you missed.

Oh cut the crap; you'll be playing "the 360 library." You yourself said you probably are only purcahse a couple games because they're so expensive; b/c at launch gives gamers something to play and allows the to get rid of their xbox and keep their game library. But YOU, you've damn near traded everything you've got to get a 360; you traded in your GC, and you traded in your Xbox to get a PsP, and before the PsP even had a chance to get through a year you took a hit on it by trading it in for a 360. Smart shopper there. Yeah, I see why you think the 360 is such a smart deal :rolleyes:

You are a continual flurry of confusion Waco. YES, we've slagged off the Xbox library as being the weakest most shallow line-up. BUT, virtually everyone here acknowledges that there also some real jems there. That makes b/c even more important as maybe combining the two libraries would finally make the system worthwhile to people who'd previously passed it by. And perhaps this is a non-issue; perhaps MS will come-out and give a straight forward answer and what kind of actual b/c we're gonna see. Personally, it seems kinda dumb to lay out money for a pre-order on a console from a company who two months prior to launch doesn't even know what its' system is going to be capable of.

So did you actually play any of those ps1 games on your ps2 or are they still sitting unplayed like ICO and a bunch of other games. I'm guessing that SOTN is still unplayed. Little more playing, little less posting, what do you think? B/c is not critical and you bloody well know it. In fact everybody knows it. Teamxbox flooded with posters who've already dumped their xbox and all the games. A bunch of other guys, how much do you think I can get for my xbox and its games?

With the ps2 you could move over your ps controllers and ps memory cards, no more. By the time the ps3 shows up, you'll get about $20 for a ps2, big deal, who the eff cares. Why sell it, why not just keep it and move to another room if need be or give it to a friend. Do you really want to start your ps2 games all over from scratch? B/c has always been over-rated, this gen it'll mean even less. Its nice as a bonus, but it ain't make or break and it never was for consoles. Genesis didn't play jack from the sms and the super nes didn't play jack from the nes, and it didn't make any diff.

I might've initiallly stated two games for the 360, but I updated a while back and more than once, stating that I'll be picking up five games and perhaps more for the 360 launch window. Matybe you missed those posts , but then maybe you're like a lot of the guys on this board with selective amnesia.

The gc was going, psp or no psp. I've been looking to dump that waste of space for a while. Once RE4 was done, bingo, bango, out the door. And we've been through this before, amnesia boy, I've told you how many frickin times I want to get down to one console. It was between the xbox and ps2, xbox went, ps2 stayed. The money I received in credit from EB would have either gone towards a psp or more games for the ps2. Psp didnt' work out, that's just the way it is. I bought most games with deals and trade in credit. But, I'm not shelling out $60 for madden or GTA. The psp is just a gaping money pit. The original games suck except for lumines which in reallity isn't that original and the rehash stuff is vastly inferior to the console offerings and the psp is just too bulky and badly designed for portable use. It just doesn't work.

So, the DS stays as my handheld choice and I'm fine with that. Quick pick up and play and you still touch base with nintendo franchises. But, its not like I play the DS for hours on end.

So, one console, which one. Playing nothing but ps2 games for a while has reminded me just how old and archiac this hardware is, long loads, low res textrues and texture crawl, jaggies and aliasing issues out the wazoo, this is hardware struggling to keep pace with the times. Wait for the ps3? Eff that. Sony wont' be here till fall xmas of 2006 and they'll launch with what? Xbox 360 ports and multiplats, Tekken 6, Ridge Racer 6.5, DMC4, I8 and whatever, and you know, not a damn game there that I really care about. And you can forget about all the nonsense about the ps3 being more powerful, because it aint' happening. Heard all this BS before from sony with the ps2 and EE and none of it came true. Show me even one game, gadfly that shows the power that is the ps2. As hardware, it is a joke and not even a funny one at that.

The ps2 right now is sequel city and the sequels are barely improved from the originals. I just tried out the SOTC demo and I'm underwhelmed. Yeah, kinda cool, but the concept sounds a lot better than it plays. Next gen has at least a chance of putting the zing back into gaming. But, Sly 3, Socom 3, R&C Deadlocked and I was a beta tester for J&D:Combat Racing. This is been there done that. DQ8, KH2, FFXII, all those jrpgs and strat/rpgs, I mean, how many times can you play the same games over and over again. If nothing else, I want an increase in the visceral impact of the game. I want the game assaulting my senses or at least not offending my sensibilities with crappy textures, jaggies and poor draw distance.

So, you and the rest of the dog pound can bite me, I'm going next gen. if I want originality I'll buy something on the DS. What I want from the 360 is a really good burger not quiche and salad. What I want are genre games taken to the next level. If it delivers that, its enough for the launch.

theWacoKid

09-13-2005, 07:04 PM

Soul Edge (still the best game in the Soul series albeit it is slower then the others)
Omega Boost (still as good as the day I bought it)
Crash Team Racing (still go back to this one from time to time)
some of the games I'm still looking for are the original Silent Hill, Symphony of the Night, Parasite Eve and Parasite Eve 2.

The thing is I don't abandon games from the previous gen as quickly as some. It's not always about new experiences. That's like chasing a dream only to wind up chasing your own tail. And obviously there is a market for gamers like me as these compilation packages from different companies prove.

Wow. three whole games, I stand corrected. You beat my two games. Of course, if I'd bought the chrono trigger/ FFIII two pack I'd have you beat, 4 to 3. And so what's your point again. If the ps2 didn't have b/c, you'd be out 3 whole games. Tragedy, I tell you, absolute tragedy.

theWacoKid

09-13-2005, 07:10 PM

Both of the Parasite Eve games are Ps1 games I intend to re-acquire.

You can find "new" in the old, too, stuff you haven't played. I'm sure the game companies wish we were all as obedient as Waco, disregarding budget older gaming and forking over on FAITH for the new. . . because FAITH is all you can call it when you pre-order a system the manufacturer can't even figure out. And its not like Xbox's performance on its last console inspired faith in many (take Waco for instance, who found it a huge dissapointment and sold it.)

I had the xbox for three years, if I'd been that disappointed, I'd have sold it off in three months. Any other BS you want to discuss, since you have no interest in discussing the facts of the matter.

You didn't seem to have any problem buying a DS at launch even though nintendo couldn't figure out what to do with the system, and tech demos like Yohsi's touch'n go were released as full fledged games. Didn't you buy that system on FAITH? Or was it that stellar launch lineup and those months of nothing being released that wasn't either a tech demo or outright crap. Maybe I should rub it in your face, that I wasn't an obedient little nintendbot like you jumping when Iwata barked, and I waited, got a DS with Super Mario DS FREE, that I waited for actual games not tech demos that made use of the DS hardware.

Still want to play this game, because its fine with me. If I'm a hypocrite, you're a bigger one.

Gadfly2317

09-13-2005, 07:27 PM

I had the xbox for three years, if I'd been that disappointed, I'd have sold it off in three months. Any other BS you want to discuss, since you have no interest in discussing the facts of the matter.

You didn't seem to have any problem buying a DS at launch even though nintendo couldn't figure out what to do with the system, and tech demos like Yohsi's touch'n go were released as full fledged games. Didn't you buy that system on FAITH? Or was it that stellar launch lineup and those months of nothing being released that wasn't either a tech demo or outright crap. Maybe I should rub it in your face, that I wasn't an obedient little nintendbot like you jumping when Iwata barked, and I waited, got a DS with Super Mario DS FREE, that I waited for actual games not tech demos that made use of the DS hardware.

Still want to play this game, because its fine with me. If I'm a hypocrite, you're a bigger one.

Well thank you for seeing the implicit point. Absolutely the DS was purchased on "Faith". . .because, 1.)NIntendo has a serious track record of putting out reliable hardware that isn't filled with dead pixels, disk read errors, or burns your house down and has thus EARNED that trust of its fans. and 2.) because only a blind ass would have been unable to see what could and would be done with this unique hardware arrangement--if you want I can dig up posts from specific blind asses, and 3.)even if they never released another title the bright backlit screen and full GBA backwards compatibility made it an awesome system from day 1 while waiting for it to fulfill it's "potential."

T.Tashi

09-13-2005, 08:16 PM

Soul Edge (still the best game in the Soul series albeit it is slower then the others)
Omega Boost (still as good as the day I bought it)
Crash Team Racing (still go back to this one from time to time)
some of the games I'm still looking for are the original Silent Hill, Symphony of the Night, Parasite Eve and Parasite Eve 2.

The thing is I don't abandon games from the previous gen as quickly as some. It's not always about new experiences. That's like chasing a dream only to wind up chasing your own tail. And obviously there is a market for gamers like me as these compilation packages from different companies prove.
I had PE1&2, Silent Hill, Valkyrie Profile, Persona, Xeno Gears, Suikoden and a ridiculous number of other PS1 games that I sold and traded and I kick myself to this day. I'll hunt them down again eventually and I'm hoping some of them find their to the psp. I never did beat the Chrysler building at the end of PE1.

theWacoKid

09-13-2005, 08:22 PM

Well thank you for seeing the implicit point. Absolutely the DS was purchased on "Faith". . .because, 1.)NIntendo has a serious track record of putting out reliable hardware that isn't filled with dead pixels, disk read errors, or burns your house down and has thus EARNED that trust of its fans. and 2.) because only a blind ass would have been unable to see what could and would be done with this unique hardware arrangement--if you want I can dig up posts from specific blind asses, and 3.)even if they never released another title the bright backlit screen and full GBA backwards compatibility made it an awesome system from day 1 while waiting for it to fulfill it's "potential."

Oh, wow, you're something else, you really are, you're the biggest hypocrite on these boards, bar none, you've got everybody beat by a country mile. Its okay for you, joe genius, to buy a DS at launch, to buy a psp at launch, but guys buying a 360 at launch are idiots, is that it? I want to fully appreciate your double standards and how they work. You're such an elitist snob. Buys and sells off an xbox far quicker than I ever did, than has the audacity to talk about me being disappointed with my xbox purchase. Impulse buys a psp at launch from a vendor he is now currently attacking for the poor quality of their components. So, did you the psp on FAITH as well. Starts a thread about gizmondo and why the hell did I buy a psp? Too bad they delayed the launch, otherwise, we'd have to listen to you pimp the gizmondo like every other item you buy.

People want to claim I have no credibility?! YIKES! At least, I have the self-awareness to know this is just gaming, and in the grand scheme of things, means jack squat. That's it all boils down to personal preference and that your choice of gaming device is not an elaborate intellectual decision, but typicallly a gut reaction.

Did nintendo earn the trust of their fans when they raped them on prices for carts for the n64. Oh, that's right, you weren't a nintendo brownie hound then, probably back then, nintendo was the bad guy and you were sucking off sony's teat with your playstation. So, what's the deal, there champ? We gonna listen to more of your hypocritical double standards, like how xbox live sucks, but when nintendo gets into it, it's going to be the greatest thing since self serve gas stations. Like how fps games suck and are derivative, but that metroid prime hunters, now that game is going to rock.

You can't have it both ways, you can't be a genius when you buy stuff at launch and everybody's an idiot when they buy at launch if you don't agree with their choices. As it is, I could care less what you think. That's your business, buy what you want, I don't care, it doesn't affect me in the least. Why you care about what I do or TMG does is what I don't get. Man, if I dump a system, it doesn't affect anyone but me, if I buy a system it doesn't affect anyone but me. That's my decision and no one elses.

I don't buy a system on FAITH. This isn't an effin religion. Iwata is not the frickin pope. I buy on expectations. The psp did not meet even my relatively low expectations. So, bingo, bango, gone. I don't think the gc ever filled my expectations, most disappoining nintendo console ever, I'm suprised I kept it as long as I did. After 6 years of current gen, starting with the DC, things are winding down. The more things change, the more things stay the same. If the xbox 360 doesn't work out, then I'l stop gaming for a while, period. It means, its time for me to take a break.

slade

09-13-2005, 09:39 PM

Wow. three whole games, I stand corrected. You beat my two games. Of course, if I'd bought the chrono trigger/ FFIII two pack I'd have you beat, 4 to 3. And so what's your point again. If the ps2 didn't have b/c, you'd be out 3 whole games. Tragedy, I tell you, absolute tragedy.

:rolleyes:

Those are just the games I'm looking for. They don't constitute the impulse buy whenever I'm at Microplay and browsing through their PSX collection. And in any event, three whole games is better then nothing at all. I know you would rather have nothing but I tells ya', I'm just not that type of guy.

ThaMaskedGamer

09-14-2005, 05:04 AM

And I guarantee it is something that very few people will be talking about. Of course, there will be a few who will never let go of the bone. But for the industry and consumers this is going to blow over faster than you can say Gears Of War. All it really takes is some great games, not old games, to make a system worthy. Is this something MS could have done better? No, not really, unless you wanted them to stick with Intel platform. But by changing the computer architecture, going away from Nvidia and building their own custom GPU, this is the best they could do. Some people are never going to cut MS a break. If they use PC components they laugh and say it is just a Celeron, now if they go with a custom system, they complain it ain't B/C. When GC released, B/C was not mentioned once on this site. So it is a complete double standard. The revolution will be b/c, so Gadfly if you think XBOX had the worse games this generation, then go buy a revolution so you can play all the great GC games, all 2 of them. And enjoy that 480p, non HD format, and weaker technology, I mean people are complaining cause the 360 may be slightly less powerful than PS3, while the revolution won't even be in the ballpark. People are complaining the 360 won't play Bluray or HD-DVD, well, the revolution won't even play normal DVDs. But, it is b/c and it has funky controller that no one knows about, so its games must be revolutionary. I use to think marketing was a waste of time, now I see why company's spend so much money in marketing, there are idiots out there who actually fall for this stuff.

And the PS3 will be b/c, cool, so get that. I mean if you are complaining about XBOX games, then get a PS3 and stick them in that and see if they play. So if you really really want to play XBOX games, you either get an XBOX, which begs the ? why wait so damn late in the ball game, or you gotta get a 360 and deal with limited support. However, why get a 360 for old games, when you wouldn't even buy an XBOX for the same games? Your argument makes no sense. Is full b/c a good thing, yes, but it isn't gonna happen.

Gadfly2317

09-14-2005, 05:37 AM

Oh, wow, you're something else, you really are, you're the biggest hypocrite on these boards, bar none, you've got everybody beat by a country mile. Its okay for you, joe genius, to buy a DS at launch, to buy a psp at launch, but guys buying a 360 at launch are idiots, is that it? Blah Blah. Talk about barking doggies. Hit a nerve did I, a whole long post to defend your dumb ass. Look mister thin skin, its a Sys Wars forum and I'm not in the pro-Xbox camp, so I'm pointing out some of the goofier mentalties about hopping on board 360 day 1. In your case, its especially fun to highlight your previous anti-xbox statements and how Sony delivered the kind of gaming you praised, then highlight your near instant dissapointment with your much promoted PsP, and then ponder what twists of logic one has to go to to blow a wad of cash on a system that still has everything wrong with it that you've brilliantly pointed out to us.

I want to fully appreciate your double standards and how they work. You're such an elitist snob. Buys and sells off an xbox far quicker than I ever did than has the audacity to talk about me being disappointed with my xbox purchase. Hey, I had it for two years. That's all it took to play the titles that interested me, and then MS announced they were canning the system and there were no more forth coming titles I wanted. Audacity? No, I'M consistent about my overall dissapointment and in my statements about what kind of gaming I'm looking for. If I've ripped on you a little it's because you seem so full of BS, like you've completely deluded yourself just so you can play Madden without jaggies, like EVERYTHING you've ever said is just smoke and mirrors. Your foresight has been shown to be somewhat lacking, so yeah, while I can't fault TMG for jumping on board day 1, it looks pretty foolish of you.

Impulse buys a psp at launch from a vendor he is now currently attacking for the poor quality of their components. So, did you the psp on FAITH as well. Hell no, I bought it with much nervousness, trepidation, and a product replacement plan. There were games I wanted and I was done with my Xbox. The DS had changed my view of handheld gaming. All factors. I fail to see what you are trying to get at with this whining.

Starts a thread about gizmondo and why the hell did I buy a psp? Too bad they delayed the launch, otherwise, we'd have to listen to you pimp the gizmondo like every other item you buy. Hmmm. . .yeah, that was a stupid thread idea, but I was feeling a bit grumpy about the release slump and the gizmondo does some interesting things I thought gamers might be interested in. I'm sure the system will flop if it even ever comes out.

People want to claim I have no credibility?! YIKES! At least, I have the self-awareness to know this is just gaming, and in the grand scheme of things, means jack squat. That's it all boils down to personal preference and that your choice of gaming device is not an elaborate intellectual decision, but typicallly a gut reaction. Oh get over yourself, We've ALL got that self-awareness you self-important little toad. "Elaborate intellectual decision!" This is a discussion board dipwad; our discussions tend to be a little more analytical than Joe-Football Xbot who just wants his same-old with new graphics. Hey, you're the guy who only wants one next-gen system, and who's posted "elaborate intellectual" explanations of why Ps3 will fulfill your gaming tastes and the 360 won't. But now that you are Joe X=bot, I guess you are saying you will no longer contribute here with any "elaborate intellectual" discussions about gaming; I guess this is why we are seeing the simpleton grunts, chest-thumping, and screechy poo-flinging version of Waco now.

As it is, I could care less what you think. Your lengthy self-defense says otherwise.

Why you care about what I do or TMG does is what I don't get. I don't. No one does. Again, I must remind you this is Sys Wars.

Man, if I dump a system, it doesn't affect anyone but me, if I buy a system it doesn't affect anyone but me. That's my decision and no one elses. Preach on Oh Master of the Bloody Obvious.

I don't buy a system on FAITH. This isn't an effin religion. Iwata is not the frickin pope. I buy on expectations. Faith, expections. Same diff. You're playing semantics. If you'll go back to the DS vs PsP threads that were here BEFORE the systems came out, and I layed out clearly why the DS would be the superior and more fun gaming system. All your predictions about "gimmick" and "N64 ports" were just dead wrong.

The psp did not meet even my relatively low expectations. So, bingo, bango, gone. Again, go back to the early threads. If you were more perceptive your expectations wouldn't have been so high. I bought the PsP for a reason and I've kept it for a reason. This is relevent to the entire point of this discussion about people jumping on the 360 at launch. Clearly you buying a PsP at launch was a dumb move and a waste of money. When I speak to "you" I'm also speaking to a certain type of self-described consumer; one who wants only one next gen console, was dissapointed with the Xbox, and who likes other kinds of games in addition to the mainstream genres. I think that kind of gamer would be a retard to fork over launch prices for an Xbox 1.5.

I think you're really stupid decision was ditching your PsP when it hasn't even been out a year yet. Talk about not getting your moneys worth out of a purchase. So its in a software slump. So was the DS at one time. It will turn around. Your ability to discern future trends and what system you are going to most enjoy is demonstrably whacked. And I truly believe your "rationalizations" about why you traded in the PsP are just that: rationalizations in order to scrape up cash for the 360. You lost money on the PsP and I'm positive in the long run you'll wish you'd have kept it.

The more things change, the more things stay the same. If the xbox 360 doesn't work out, then I'l stop gaming for a while, period. It means, its time for me to take a break. Yes, the more things change the more they stay the same. Save for Oblivion, which you could just make a rare exception for and play on your PC, 360 IS more of the same; follow your own advice, save your damned money and take a break from gaming now. Now is the PERFECT time to take a break from console gaming. Handheld gaming has hit its stride and two other next gen systems are rapidly approaching. "If the 360 doesn't work out." Man, in your bones you can feel it can't you--the truth in your prior view of the 360? You're already setting yourself up to dump the damned thing.

Mochan

09-14-2005, 06:20 AM

jaggies and aliasing issues out the wazoo, this is hardware struggling to keep pace with the times.

Personally I thought the PS2 was struggling to keep pace even when it first came out. =_=

I'm probably one of the few people in the world who complained about FFX's graphics. At the start when I was running Tidus through Zanarkand and the brown buildings in the background looked like jaggy rectangular blobs of gelatin, I said, "Yuck what is wrong with these graphics!" My friend thought I was bonkers but the low resolution really hurt it (keep in mind I'd been consistently gaming at 1024x768 before I got my PS2).

One thing I'm noting is that there are people who are thinking the current gen has gotten so weak that they're feeling they need to go nextgen to jump start themselves after the gaming scene has "winded down" because nothing is new and the hardware is struggling to keep up with time times etc. etc. Well I'm gonna throw in my PC pimp: on the PC, the gaming scene never winds down from hardware constraints! Hahahhahaha!

I had PE1&2, Silent Hill, Valkyrie Profile, Persona, Xeno Gears, Suikoden and a ridiculous number of other PS1 games that I sold and traded and I kick myself to this day.

My sole regret with my PS1 was that I lent my SOTN to a friend during college and I never got it back. I *did* sell a whole lot of my PS1 games and my PS1 itself to someone on auction in its twilight days (the lens was already iffy) but I did keep all the good ones and my favorites (FF Tactics, FF7-9, Front Mission 3, Suikoden 2, Tekken 3, Kagero, Metal Gear Solid, Super Robot Wars Alpha and Alpha Gaiden, every game on your list, and a bunch of others). Fortunately I found a friend with SOTN so I was to reacquire a copy.

It's nice that these games still work on my PS2 though admittedly I haven't replayed them except for Suikoden 2 and FF Tactics (for some reason I never get tired of these two games). B/C is nice, though admittedly in a pinch I could play these games on my PC as well (and with better graphics to boot, lol).

Some people are never going to cut MS a break. If they use PC components they laugh and say it is just a Celeron,

Well you do have to consider that any serious gamer will laugh at someone when he puts a Celeron in a gaming machine. Celerons just aren't built for gaming! And the brand image is so bad against it from a gaming perspective. It's the el-cheapo processor that only schmucks on their allowance money would get for a gaming machine.

ThaMaskedGamer

09-14-2005, 07:40 AM

Well you do have to consider that any serious gamer will laugh at someone when he puts a Celeron in a gaming machine. Celerons just aren't built for gaming! And the brand image is so bad against it from a gaming perspective. It's the el-cheapo processor that only schmucks on their allowance money would get for a gaming machine.

Well you can laugh at the Celeron all you want. But if the Celeron is a joke, what does that make the Emotion Engine and GC's CPU? What does that say about the much vaunted PC power? The XBOX celeron can handle Doom3, FarCry, Half-life2, the very best PC games with no problems. Even add a two player online coop mode for Doom3 that the PC version didn't have. So imagine how well 360 is gonna handle PC games. I think Oblivion will outshine the PC version.

Mochan

09-14-2005, 08:13 AM

The XBOX celeron can handle Doom3, FarCry, Half-life2, the very best PC games with no problems

No. It can handle the XBox version of the very best PC games, but it can't handle it at PC-level quality. It handles the games at half the resolution, with lower res textures adn less game objects, less effects, and in Far Cry's case, less game world, and only at half the frame rate (if even that). Again, it's a joke.

Now, what does it say about EE and other stuff? Well they must be bleh. But remember what I am referring more to here is image; the image the Celeron projects is so bad that any serious PC gamer would laugh at anyone using one for gaming. And it's no exaggeration; the Celeron is a joke for gaming even performance-wise; all other chips, even Athlon's budget chip (the Duron) beats the stuffing out of it (and yet costs less!) But it's true, the EE combo is less powerful than the Celeron, I'm not going to argue that.

As for Oblivion, I think the the 360 version will be better than say 95% of the PCs out there, I'm not going to argue that. But there will be PCs that will trump the 360 version in graphics and in load times. In fact, a great number of PCs will probably do better than the 360 version when it comes to load times.

The 360 version will be stuck at 720p and 4x AA and I don't know what filtering features it will have. The PC version on the other hand will be able to reach 2500x1600 res or more (though I doubt anyone can game on that res for Oblivion with with dual sli 7800s) so a more realistic resolution will also be around 1280x1024 or 1600x1200. The other difference will be that the PC version will have Shader Model 3, which ATI's Xenos does not have, and it will also have Transparency Supersampling (a new tech only the 7800 series cards have) which allows the anti aliasing of alpha-blended textures (like chainlink fences, blades of grass, etc.) so that they appear even smoother (traditionally alpha-blended textures do not antialias like the edges of normal polygons because they are a mesh put over a polygon -- hard to explain but any PC gamer playing with AA knows what I mean).

I do not believe the 360 will have this feature so it's not unbelievable to think that the top of the line PCs will beat the 360 out graphically. Further, we can expect sli 7800s on Athlon X2s or FXs to have smoother frame rates than even the 360. Of course this is going to be at humongous cost and only the best of the best (and the richest of the rich) will have this.

For the average gamer, the 360 will look better.