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thelastword
09-06-2005, 07:10 PM
<!--StartFragment -->Read on system warriors;


Chris Keegan - Technical Director, Climax

Ok. You’re making a top secret PS3 game right now. How much better is PS3 than PS2?

Put it this way, had PS3 existed in 1998 it would have been the most powerful super-computer in the world. PS2, in comparison, has never been higher than the top 30. PS3 is roughly 250 times more powerful in raw processing terms than PS2. And that’s not including the power of the RSX.

So games will be that much better then?

It’s not quite that simple, I’m afraid. With the extra computing horse-power comes a not insubstantial downside, namely that writing code efficient enough to take advantage of it has become an order of magnitude. It requires programming skills that only the very best developers have, and they’re kept locked away in dark dungeons. Fortunately Climax maintains a bank of genetically engineered uber-coders, awaiting the dawn of just such an era of games development.

What will the new machine allow you to do that you couldn’t of doing on PS2?

We’re talking about more physics, more characters, more detail, more gorgeous graphics. Much more expansive worlds filled with detail and, importantly, things to drive your car into and shoot and bound up and over.

So that means I have to buy a new TV to get the most out of PS3?

You can probably get away with only onebut I tell you, this dual HDMI interface is a bit of all right, fully digital signal all the way to your plasma or projector is a beatiful thing. Crisp, colourful, high contrast – black will finally be black, not some cloudy grey. Beautiful. Well worth the investment.

The Cell processor runs at 3.2Ghz. My PC is faster than that, so why is the Cell such a big deal?

These days, even Intel has stopped shouting about the clock speed of their processors. It’s now fairly well recognized fact that it’s not clocks, but what you do with them. And in the case of the processor you have nine processors working at the same time counting up FLOPS, and eight of them are hardcore fast processors designed for delivering hardcore math-intensive features like rendering and physics.

Tell us about RSX. What does it do?

That’s the kick-ass poly-pusher. It’s your GeForce 6800 Ultra SLI’ed badboy plus a hefty bit on the side. RSX is what’s going to blow you all away – you thought those movies at E3 looked good? You wait!

And what’s a Teraflop anyway?

FLOPS are really, really boring but lots of them equal great games. A FLOP is a floating point operation - basically an operation which adds, subtracts, multiplies or divides two numbers. A KiloFLOP is a thousand such operations, a MegaFLOP is a million, a Giga Flop is a billion (PS2 had roughly seven of them) and a TeraFLOP is a gazillion (or a trillion - 1 with 12 zeroes).

So what are ‘shaders’ and multi-way programmable parallel floating point shader pipelines?

Shaders are boring, but remember those programmers that Climax keep secreted away in dungeons? Well those guys love shaders. Shaders are short programs that describe the properties of surfaces, they make things shiny or matt and definethe way they interact with light sources. The goal of us as developers is to put the artists in control of powerful shaders so that they can create stunning and creative artwork. That multi-other ‘parallel obfuscating widget’ thing gives you an indication that there’s a lot going on at once and that it’s very flexible. Which means prettier games.

Why seven controllers?

That’s an odd number. It is indeed an odd number. But the answer is another boring one, I’m afraid. The wireless controllers use Bluetooth and there is a limitation in that standard that means only seven slave devices can be active at any one time. Hence seven controllers.

If they’re wireless, won’t I disturb a game on my next-door-neighbors PS3?

Because the PS3 uses Bluetooth, rather than Wi-Fi, there won’t be any problems with clashing with other PS3 devices. Bluetooth operates in a number of different modes but I’d imagine Sony would use a low-power mode, which would provide enough range for a typical living room use but not enough to send the signal through into next door.

And the PSP connectivity - does this mean I’ll be able to stream video from my PS3 over 8o2.11 on my PSP?

That’s certainly possible given the PSP’s support for 8o2.11b, which should be capable of delivering video suitable for the PSP’s resolution. It’s clearly Sony’s intention to provide this sort of functionality for the PS3 and PSP.

Sony have been blabbing about ‘photo realism’ for years. Are the graphics of PS3 finally there?

We’re getting closer certainly, but I’d stop and ask the question: Is photo-realism really what we’re aiming for? I want to see the same creativity in games’ visual style as we see in films. Look at Sin City and you begin to realize that the quest for photo-realism is a throwback to the days when the hardcore technologists ruled the roost.

Making PS3 games - easy or just a bit scary?

Making PS3 games is going to be a massive challenge that will break many small developers but at the same time this is an exciting time to be in the games industry and creating games to make jaws drop. Who wouldn’t call that their dream job?

Gadfly2317
09-06-2005, 08:52 PM
Is this satire, or is Keegan trying to join Kutaragi and Iwata in the Hyperbolic Bozo Hall of Fame?

shogun
09-06-2005, 10:38 PM
Well, he is at least honest about how this is essentially going to boil down to a development war. Even if PS3 is fully capable of what we saw at E3, or even capable of doing a realtime "FF Spirits Within", how many companies have the skills and finances to back up creating such a game? Even after 4 or 5 years, look at how few games tax the hardware we have now.
If the current 5yr console cycle holds, PS3 may be the most under-utilized console of all time.

moya
09-07-2005, 02:07 AM
Is this satire, or is Keegan trying to join Kutaragi and Iwata in the Hyperbolic Bozo Hall of Fame?

See, that was a good one-line post.

thelastword
09-07-2005, 03:30 AM
Is this satire, or is Keegan trying to join Kutaragi and Iwata in the Hyperbolic Bozo Hall of Fame?
What's admirable about Keegan is that he is willfully taking on the programming challenges that lay ahead instead of crying foul in a corner like Gabe Newell. He knows of the power of this machine and believes that his team is quite capable of getting good fruit from it.


<!--StartFragment -->Well, he is at least honest about how this is essentially going to boil down to a development war. Even if PS3 is fully capable of what we saw at E3, or even capable of doing a realtime "FF Spirits Within", how many companies have the skills and finances to back up creating such a game? Even after 4 or 5 years, look at how few games tax the hardware we have now. If the current 5yr console cycle holds, PS3 may be the most under-utilized console of all time.
Yes, It will be a dev war. I'm of the opinion that hardcore console devs will likely keep lazy pc devs on the sand while they go away sailing. Next gen it's not about how proficient you were programming a single core but rather how excellent you will become with several of them. The console Industry is taking a major turn with these cpu's almost as big as the 2D-3D leap, like always some will fall by the way side but I'm confident that we have sufficient devs that will do well.

The ps2 was a bit difficult to program for, even Bain from Sony Uk said that ps2 compilers was not that great afterall . With the Ps3 we are seeing many positives in terms ease of use for devs. Open source programming on cell architecture is going to be a major step forward in getting a solid grasp on multicore programming at the soonest.

So no, I don't believe it will be underutilized especially with Sony's thrust with ease of development. There's just too many tools that covers all aspects of game construction to go unnoticed and even then I'm noticing too many devs excited about this new wave in console game design.

Gadfly2317
09-07-2005, 07:03 AM
See, that was a good one-line post.

I'm trying. Thanks. :)

Gadfly2317
09-07-2005, 07:29 AM
What's admirable about Keegan is that he is willfully taking on the programming challenges that lay ahead instead of crying foul in a corner like Gabe Newell. He knows of the power of this machine and believes that his team is quite capable of getting good fruit from it.

Yes, It will be a dev war.

So this is a serious interview? I thought it a subtle joke.

Here's why I thought this was a made-up interview to make Sony Fanboys look silly:

"a TeraFLOP is a gazillion (calculations)"

"PS3 is roughly 250 times more powerful in raw processing terms than PS2. "

What will the new machine allow you to do that you couldn’t of doing on PS2?

. . . drive your car into and shoot and bound up and over."

"Making PS3 games is going to be a massive challenge that will break many small developers but at the same time this is an exciting time to be in the games industry and creating games to make jaws drop."

This last bit, it directly supports that long blog-post Jupiter put up about the death of gaming due to just this thing; you wouldn't think a serious person in the world of gaming would be prasing the breaking of "many small developers" as an exciting time for the games industry. This is about the most unexiting and awful development I can think of: a few big budget giants dominating hollywood style over a gazillion terracowflopping games.

Maybe the DS and the Rev, with their ease of development and design innovations (vs. just more flops) really will turn out to be the indie-record kick-ass cool place to game. DS already is; hopefully there will be one console of the three able to provide an outlet for small developers and big developers alike to try out fun new ideas without having to sink 60 million dollars into them or face extinction.

Mochan
09-07-2005, 07:58 AM
Heh, looks like I was right. The seven controller number simply shows the maximum number of controllers the PS3 can possibly support using Bluetooth.

I'm of the opinion that hardcore console devs will likely keep lazy pc devs on the sand while they go away sailing.

I get this impression, too.

I do think the PS3 will be underutilized for quite some time. I think it will be underutilized until well into the 2010.

Fivespot
09-07-2005, 09:53 AM
I do think the PS3 will be underutilized for quite some time. I think it will be underutilized until well into the 2010.

Remember when this was the other way around? Game makers were often limited by what they could do based on the hardware.

Sounds like they'll no longer have any excuse other than make quality games - gotta love that!!! A great trend indeed except for the way we'll have to pay for it when buying the better hardware or superior games (more expensive).

thelastword
09-07-2005, 10:08 AM
So this is a serious interview? I thought it a subtle joke.
Nothing suggests to me that it's not, It's just another dev airing his views on the ps3, His method of expression may be slightly different to what Kojima, Rein from epic, or the doctors from Bioware. They're basically all speaking the same language just with slightly differing accents.

What will the new machine allow you to do that you couldn�t of doing on PS2?
. . . drive your car into and shoot and bound up and over."
Actually climax is also working on a car shooter game hence the reference to cars and shooting. They're using their brand new blimey 2 engine for it.


"Making PS3 games is going to be a massive challenge that will break many small developers but at the same time this is an exciting time to be in the games industry and creating games to make jaws drop."

I'm looking at it differently though. I don't believe Keegan or any other resourceful dev is wishing for the demise of smaller less resourceful devs. He was just expressing that they would have to step up. I'm not overly concerned though because good coders will be good coders no matter where they are. Have you seen the video for project offset? It's mighty impressive for a dev team of only three, even more so than gears of War on the 360.

So small dev teams can create brilliant games, It's a question of whether or not they're talented enough to prove themselves and garner the production support they require from publishers. Here's Gabe Newell he's never programmed multicores before, he's bitter that multicore programming is here so soon, he can simply get lazy and complain that it's too complicated and create sub par work even after his outstanding success in the single core era, or he can allow a young ambitious dev to embrace the inevitable and outpace him. Like anything else nothing stays the same the process of evolution is real, It's about time people realize this.

thelastword
09-07-2005, 10:41 AM
Heh, looks like I was right. The seven controller number simply shows the maximum number of controllers the PS3 can possibly support using Bluetooth.
Well that was always factual.




I get this impression, too.

I do think the PS3 will be underutilized for quite some time. I think it will be underutilized until well into the 2010.
Well these guys have alot of processing power at their disposal with the PS3. I believe however due to So much effort from Sony that a lot of ground work will be covered even before the PS3 arrives, How about open source projects Mochan? Young Dev Teams or student programmers eager to jump on this multicore train have the option of sourcing PS3 dev kits, since they realize it's the wave of the future. I'm optimistic that many programming techniques will be acquired and distributed even before PS3 arrives. That does'nt mean that the better devs won't outshine the lesser, maybe in 2010 or earlier a Dev Team will make Killzone PS3 look like pong but it's all good isn't it? It's all about the incremental advances along the
5yr lifespan of Sony consoles IMO.

Mochan
09-07-2005, 11:46 AM
Project Offset totally tore the pants off of Gears of War. And hey, it looks better than Oblivion too AFAIC.

Open Source is good, Quake 3 recently became open source and this engine brought to life games like Call of Duty. I still doubt that we can get the entire potential of the PS3 squeezed out until at least 5 years have passed. I mean, the PS2's potential is still being cranked up today. Even if programming techniques are laid down now, I think the full potential of the console will take a long while yet to be achieved.

I mean, even on the PC, it usually takes some 2 to 3 years before current hardware gets maxed out to its fullest, and PC hardware doesn't even perform as efficiently as console hardware. With more efficient hardware, it'll take even longer to reach that peak in performance.

Also, wasn't Sony aiming for a 10 year lifespan for this console?

Mochan
09-07-2005, 11:51 AM
To be honest though I'm actually hoping we'll see more of Will Wright's philosophy to catch on. Rather than see graphics max themselves out (and thus incur billions of dollars in production costs for games) I'd like to see more of the Spore idea: create "smart" engines that can adapt to a player's desires and create animations/meshes/models on the fly.

Spore looks really exciting but imagine the applications of this. I'd like to see something like a martial arts spore where no fighting styles are set, but you create them based on how you push movements and techniques that you try to create on your own. Then martial arts profiles you create can be uploaded to other users to populate the world, and there can be PK arenas for players to pit their martial arts "styles" against other players. People could watch it and you can gain "followers" for doing well in these arenas (you'd be buildling dojos, sort of like how Guild Wars builds guilds) -- these follwoers could even be other players who see the merits of the style or technique you used.

Pandarbock
09-07-2005, 12:45 PM
So everything pertaining to the ps3 is boring just about according to Keegan, well I am sold. Seriously though this person sounds so completely full of **** it isn't funny. Funny how they reiterate what Gabe said about there only being a small percentage of people that will be able to code efficiently for the new multicore design, but then gives some silly bogus bull**** that it is ok because they have genectiaclly engineered programmers. Finally, since when was the ps2 ever in the top 30 super computer list (except for in sony's mind), I guess the ps3 will be so much more capable then the meger ps2 that could launch nuclear missles and thus need to be band from being exported to china.

thelastword
09-07-2005, 01:23 PM
Project Offset totally tore the pants off of Gears of War. And hey, it looks better than Oblivion too AFAIC.

Open Source is good, Quake 3 recently became open source and this engine brought to life games like Call of Duty. I still doubt that we can get the entire potential of the PS3 squeezed out until at least 5 years have passed. I mean, the PS2's potential is still being cranked up today. Even if programming techniques are laid down now, I think the full potential of the console will take a long while yet to be achieved.

I mean, even on the PC, it usually takes some 2 to 3 years before current hardware gets maxed out to its fullest, and PC hardware doesn't even perform as efficiently as console hardware. With more efficient hardware, it'll take even longer to reach that peak in performance.

Also, wasn't Sony aiming for a 10 year lifespan for this console?

No doubt! It will take some time to max the ps3, and that's definitely a good thing. It's just neat for a gamer to say hey I played eternal ring at the ps2's launch and here I am playing God Of War, huge difference is noted.

On the question of ten years I think it's possible since the ps2 is going on year #6 and of course since the PS3 will have the most power this time, it's legs will naturally carry it much further. Despite all of this, I do expect a ps4 sometime in 2011-12

Brendon
09-07-2005, 04:28 PM
Ammusingly (and this is just my speculation on a likely outcome), what's going to happen with smaller developers will be mass inventory canibalising, which is the game equivelent of the 'universal man' Pixar used for all the background people in The Incredibles, exept much lamer.

Rather than drive themselves insane with their own code and creating everything from scratch, smaller devs will follow the current PC model of buying an engine to run their game, and a bunch of prefabed models which they will tweak with to get the look they want without needing to segment all their own high-def models, or perhaps they'll build a few 'master' models and tweak with those.

What this means is that there will be a LOT of games that look remarkably similar to each other and certainly a lot of half baked things that the prefab engine wasn't designed to portray will crop up. This is bad seeing as having a unique look will be less and less common, artistic expression will be limited to the big boys who, by and large, wouldn't have any part of it.

Yah! it's the second dark age.