Why do you want an Xbox 360? Games?

[Gadfly2317]

I was wanting start a thread on exactly this topic:
So has anybody came up with any good reasons to Buy the 360 I would like to know. The Only real reason I want one is to play Halo3 But that is a while off so what would be a good reason to buy at lauch. I am serious I would really like to know.Like I said before I am way behind in gaming info and would like to know what 360 games I don't know about are there any good or Effin-A games coming out.

With all the xbot defensiveness on the price, and the diversion of the two-tiered system and non-standard hard drive, what's gotten lost is why anyone would want a 360 in the first place. I think all of us are displeased at the two-tier pricing model and the decision to make the HD non-standard, even those who are making feeble attempts to defend it. So get off the defensive, and lets hear some enthusiasm about the games. Most of us have seen a list of supposed "launch" titles, but sometimes a list of names is kinda meaningless and a lot of us are not sure why any of you are wanting these games.

What games are must haves, and would you guys mind filling in some details about what makes these games great. For instance, Project Gotham III, what features are there that make it more than the same old racing game with some slightly better graphics? What can we expect from these "next gen" titles besides graphics. I'm serious; do your sales-pitch enthusiastic best here and let us skeptics know what games you want and why?

Pretty much the only game I've followed at all is Oblivion; exploring is one of my favorite things in a game (part of why I liked Pikmin) and Oblivion looks to have one of the largest most immersive worlds to explore I've ever seen, and also to have possibly made the combat better than in Elder Scrolls III. What also strikes me as next gen about it is the detail, facial animations, lip-synching, the way the AI patterns give each of the 1000 non-playable characters 24 hour cycles were they go about living their own lives separate from yours, and even interact with other characters. All this should go to create a fantasy world more "real" than just about anything that's come before. The big plus to the Xbox here is that who knows what kind of PC it'll take to run it, and with something you could sit in front of for 100 hours, it might be a lot better on the couch with the xbox's supposedly ultra-comfy controller.

Beyond that, though, I haven't seen the appeal to the 360, but maybe I'm just ignorant. I'd love to hear some enthusiastic descriptions of what's going to be cool, new and next gen about the games you want. . . beyond just a new graphical coat of paint. And not just launch titles. . . what's coming down the road, and what games look to break new ground or are really original genre-bending stuff?

Here's a chance to get past the negativity and get some praise going for the 360. Run with it, please.

[trebor]

Well...I can tell you why I was eyeing the 360 and, unfortunately, there will be some negativity in this post, but it can't be avoided.

First off, I've had a mental list of Xbox games that I've been interested in playing, so I was hoping I would be able to get the 360 and play titles such as: Crimson Skies, KotOR, Ninja Gaiden, Fable, Jade Empire, and maybe a couple of others.

But now the b/c of the 360 is all up in the air, so now because of the multiple tier and b/c confusion, I don't even know if I could go back to those games.

Aside from the b/c, games like Oblivion and RE5 were looking very good to me. Plus with good support from Bioware, Mistwalker, and a host of other 3rd parties, pretty much any next-gen multiplatform game I could be interested I'd be able to get.

Obviously, even if the 360 isn't as powerful as the PS3, it will be at least comparable to it. I'm imagining the graphic differences between the Xbox and Gamecube in this regard - obviously those two systems are more similar graphically then either are to the PS2 - which both of them blow away.

So, there are at least two reasons - good power and 3rd party support.

[Mochan]

There are only two reasons why I want an XBox 360.

1. Oblivion
2. Rumors of Super Robot Wars 360

Of those two, only one is a launch window reason.

And apparently, neither of these two reasons are exclusive to the XBox (Oblivion will be out on the PC at the same time, and SRW is still strong on the PS2). The major reason I'm drooling over the prospect of a 360 SRW is because it actually has a snowball's chance in hell of coming out in English, something the previous SRWs didn't even have (yes, it's sad).

There are other games I'm rather interested in for the 360, but these games, alas, will likely be coming out on the PC! Like Quake 4.

What also strikes me as next gen about it is the detail, facial animations, lip-synching, the way the AI patterns give each of the 1000 non-playable characters 24 hour cycles were they go about living their own lives separate from yours, and even interact with other characters.

You know what's really cool? Oblivion includes Facemaker, a 3rd party software that lets you generate faces. You can input your picture to the software and it'll generate a 3D mesh and texture of your face. There's a demo of it on the net (it licenses for $500) you can try it out, the results are cool.

24 hour cycles though aren't nextgen, actually it's very old. Ultima VII did this a LONG time ago, and it has always, always confused me why no other RPG since then has ever done the same. Not even Ultima VIII did so! (Ultima VIII was the biggest disgrace to RPG gaming ever, and signalled the demise of RPGs on the PC). Ultima VII achieved 24 hour cycles for every NPC almost 15 years ago, it's sad that nobody ever tried it again. The Bethesda devs have been quoted saying that Oblivion's scheduling was modelled after Ultima VII's (the basic AI model they are aiming for is best described as a cross of Ultima VII and The Sims, according to them).

Radiant AI's AI patterns do look very next gen though; I think it will be more sophisticated than The Sim's AI. If even half of what they are saying is true then it's definitely next gen material. There are stories the devs are telling us of how their tests of RAI caused a riot in town:

Basically some guards got hungry and due to the parameters set in their RAI, they went out to hunt for food. Then went into the forest and poached a deer. Another non-hungry guard out of their group saw this, and attacked them for poaching. They got into a battle, which attracted more guards, and the guards got into full swing. Since the guards were occupied with brawling each other, the shops had no security so thieves took advantage of the situation and started stripping the stalls naked. This made shopkeepers angry and they started brawling the thieves! This in turn caught the attention of some guards, who beat up the brawlers! Then teh rest of the townsfolk saw their friends being maltreated by guards, so they joined in the fray!

The implications of this are incredible; if even half of it is true, what we have is almost infinite replayability with totally unpredictable actions and incredible dynamic gameplay. This was a bug and the devs are working on making sure every town in the game doesn't turn into anarchy when you come in but as you can see the implications are staggering.



Okay, enough Oblivion ranting, there honestly isn't much else to talk about with the 360 for me. Gears of War? It has a "been there done that" feel to me, having been through countless FPS games on the PC. I don't really know what else to get excited over. We've heard some Jap dev support like some games from Mistwalker, but I really don't know anything about those games.


The SRW 360; I've ranted before about how great SRW is, but it's something that only a person weaned on Japanese anime from the 70s can fully appreciate. Current gen anime fans who watch stuff like Gundam Seed and Eva, Rah Xephon, etc. should be okay as well but SRW was always made for the 70's super robot fanboys amongst us.

The deal here is that, traditionally, XBox games come out in English first. I'm hoping that, as an XBox game, this SRW will finally see light in English, since I'm getting sick of playing it in Japanese (I can't read Japanese) and the game is heavily text intensive with all its story dialogue (only about 2% of which has voice over).

[Mochan]

Other games I am interested in for the 360:

Call of Duty 2 (coming out for PC as well)
Ghost Recon (coming out for PC as well)
Quake 4 (coming out for PC as well)

I think this is pretty telling that the XBox is still on the road to being a PC-wannabe, if the games I am anticipating for it are PC franchises. =_=

I'm also interseted in Frame City Killer and Blue Dragon but unfortunately I don't now much about them.

[Gadfly2317]

Good responses so far; this, from today's IGN 7 page article breaking down everything we know about 360 lists these as the launch titles. Part of my lack of enthusiasm, and part of why I've said its "Xbox all over again" is its primarily all sports, racers and shooters, the best titles are all on PC--and some of those "next gen" titles are coming out on Ps2 and GC. That's also why I asked if anyone knows anything coming down the road that is something to look out for. The other game besides Oblivion that's a launch title that looks pretty sweet is Kameo. So far, I just dont' see the draw, but I'm really hoping maybe there's some stuff being done with these titles I haven't heard about, and some of the guys who are really wanting a 360 can bring this stuff to life for me. God knows I'm not that hard to sell a video game system to.



Project Gotham Racing 3
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
Dead or Alive 4
Call of Duty 2
GUN
Quake 4
Tony Hawk's American Wasteland
Condemned
Madden NFL 2006
Kameo
Amped 3
Ghost Recon
NBA 2K6
NHL 2K6
Ridge Racer 6
Top Spin 2
Need for Speed: Most Wanted
Tiger Woods 2006
Frame City Killer

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

The main reason is I believe that this gen is tapped. There is nothing that's truly exciting sure we're getting better looking games but only in increnmental amounts. For me this gen started On 9/9/99 and really got started a year later when Seganet went live. I'm just ready to upgrade it's not so much that there are a bunch of games I'm dying for (they're are a few) but I'm just ready for the next step Just upgrading My PC around october of last year as made want the next gen consoles even more.

I honestly can't see how people who love games can primairly play on the PS2 at this point even the best looking games (GOW) are starting to show the systems age.

Finally I'm ready for the next gen of Xbox Live as well.

[mandark]

The main reason is I believe that this gen is tapped. There is nothing that's truly exciting sure we're getting better looking games but only in increnmental amounts. For me this gen started On 9/9/99 and really got started a year later when Seganet went live. I'm just ready to upgrade it's not so much that there are a bunch of games I'm dying for (they're are a few) but I'm just ready for the next step Just upgrading My PC around october of last year as made want the next gen consoles even more.

I honestly can't see how people who love games can primairly play on the PS2 at this point even the best looking games (GOW) are starting to show the systems age.

Finally I'm ready for the next gen of Xbox Live as well.
Its not all about how it looks, although that is a factor, its about how the games play or in other words, gameplay. GOW may show its age but its the kind of game that people wants to play. The PS2 may be 5 yrs old but it is still coming out with games with gameplay that entices people. Perfect example is Katamari Damacy. The graphics sucks and it looks like what a NES can churn out. But the gameplay man, the gameplay. Its simple, its straight forward, and yet addicting. And guess what? Its only on PS2, the game, the gameplay, the originality. FPS, Racers, Sports titles are available everywhere, on the other hand.

Madden looks better on the 360! Woohoo! But the gameplay is available in the PS2, GC, and Xbox! So big deal.

[shogun]

I honestly can't see how people who love games can primairly play on the PS2 at this point even the best looking games (GOW) are starting to show the systems age.

I love this line. Game-lovers are supposed to go after a dozen or so rehashes on 360, over the hundreds of titles on PS2 simply because they look better. That's not game-lover Drunk, that's a graphics lover.

I do think at this point 360 has some in merit being the first next-gen system. If you want to pop in a game and impress your friends with "cutting edge" technology, you might get some money's worth out of it. Still, I can't see how people who love games would choose to play primarily on 360. since there are so few...games. What's availible is rehash-central, and as we all know from their constant taunts of PS2 gamers, XBox owners HATE rehashes. (Therefore, I anticipate them avoiding PGR3 and DOA4 like the plague ;))

Elder Scrolls is the only launch game that looks at all interesting to me. Gears of War would raise my number of desireable 360 games in development to a whopping "2." That's a bit shy of what would motivate me to plop down a few hundred at launch. Also, nearly every single game I bought and enjoyed on XBox sold like crap, and will almost certainly not see a sequal. JSRF 2?, Panzer Dragoon?, Deathrow 2?...yeah right.

XBox did a good job of tempting me at launch, and while I didn't bite for a while, at least the interest was there. This launch looks to be more tepid than PSP.

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

I'm pretty much over the whole "MS selling $300 and $400 systems, with some having HDD and some not". There weren't a big list of games that fully utilized the HDD on Xbox (not many that I played) since most games were either multiplatform or didn't really utilize the HDD. Until the 360 is in stores and the games are playable, we really don't know how much of a difference it will be for games playing on the HDD and HDD-less systems.

I see myself getting the $400 360 system, of course, but not at launch. I honestly don't see myself being finished with this gen until after Starcraft: Ghost finally comes out. After that, I'll probably pick up a 360.

Games of Interest (bolds are definite, others are just of interest so far):

Oblivion
Saint's Row
Kameo
Dead of Alive 4
Tomb Raider Legend - Depends on when it comes out for next gen and when I get a 360
The Godfather - Same as above
Rumble Roses XX
Gears of War
Too Human
Fable 2
Jade Empire 2 (?)
Madden or NCAA 2007
Ninja Gaiden

Dark Sector
The Darkness
Lost Odyssey
99 Nights
DOA Code Cronus
NBA 2k7

[Mochan]

I honestly can't see how people who love games can primairly play on the PS2 at this point even the best looking games (GOW) are starting to show the systems age.

Loving games does not necessarily have anything to with how good a game looks. There are people who still play Minesweeper, Tetris, Doctor Mario, or let's say Bejeweled and those aren't pretty.

Loving games usually has more to do with gameplay than graphics, though I admit graphics play a big deal. Still there is no business saying that "a true game lover can't possibly play primarily on the PS2." Now if you said "graphics whore" and not "game lover" I'd understand.

[mandark]

I was actually sold on the 360 a few months ago. After all the good news from E3 I thought to myself finally a reason to get an X-box(360).

Selling points were:
Backwards Compatibility: All the X-box games I did not get to play will finally be within my grasps along with the nextgen games the 360 has to offer.
Oblivion: If this game is as good as the hype said it will be and is only available in one console then its worth a purchase
Too Human: I really have no idea what this game is about. But I've been waiting for it ever since it was announced for the GC. Now that its going to the 360, thats one more checkmark in the buy column.
X-box Live: I've always been intrigued by this feature although I've been gaming online for quite a few years now. The 360 will give me the chance to explore this service and decide for myself if it is better than just PC online gaming.
Backwards Compatibililty: Too important an issue especially for anyone who skipped the X-box in hopes of playing the older games without shelling money for multiple consoles. Very important to me, the main reason its listed twice.

But now that more light is being shed and the realization that MS rarely holds a title truly exclusive is the reason why I will be taking the wait and see approach. The 360 may well be here and now but so did the Dreamcast. At least the DC offered more games that were truely exclusive to the system. With the PS3 looming in the future with promises of greatness when it comes to games based on the PS2(you know History) I will just have to wait and see. Who knows maybe Sony will screw up royally and I'll end up with a 360 anyways.

[trebor]

I totally forgot about Too Human which IMHO is a pretty big feather in the 360's cap.

But I seriously doubt that Too Human will be finished before the PS3 is launched, so again, there is just another reason to hold off on buying a 360 until the dust settles and things like b/c are hammered out. So either way, it will pay off for me personally to wait until the PS3 is out to make any console buying decisions.

[Cuddly Knife]

I thought that Gears of War was a 3rd person shooter. I seem to remember reading somewhere about that, them also talking about having RE4/God of War-style conext sensitive moves to use, such as shoving a grenade down an enemies throat and such. I also was reading about how it had gameplay that was almost like Kill.Switch. Maybe I was reading about something else. Dark Sector, perhaps?

[Darwin]

There need be only one reason to buy an Xbox 360 at launch: Oblivion. That is all. If all I ever bought for the 360 was Oblivion, I would still (likely) get my money's worth. It is the sequal to the greatest game ever created.

Morrowind: 150 hours.

Oblivion: TBA

[theWacoKid]

I totally forgot about Too Human which IMHO is a pretty big feather in the 360's cap.

But I seriously doubt that Too Human will be finished before the PS3 is launched, so again, there is just another reason to hold off on buying a 360 until the dust settles and things like b/c are hammered out. So either way, it will pay off for me personally to wait until the PS3 is out to make any console buying decisions.

Who the hell are you kidding, you wouldn't buy a DS until it dropped $20 in price, you were never in the market for a 360 period. Give me a break with this ridiculous hypocrisy. You cry up a river how you have a mortgage to pay off and that $20 is important to you, but now, you're talking about shellng out for a next gen console. ROFLMAO!

So, which is it, spanky, you either have money or you don't. You can afford a next gen console or not. What happened to your mortgage?! How about answering those questions? Ack, ack, ack.

[trebor]

Who the hell are you kidding, you wouldn't buy a DS until it dropped $20 in price, you were never in the market for a 360 period. Give me a break with this ridiculous hypocrisy. You cry up a river how you have a mortgage to pay off and that $20 is important to you, but now, you're talking about shellng out for a next gen console. ROFLMAO!

Let's all take a look at the "logic" of the Waco Kid for a moment...


You got some nerve, you bought a 32 inch lcd, didn't you. How much money you want to bet, that I can buy a 360 and the same lcd you bought when the 360 launches for the same price you paid for the lcd alone. You want to talk rip off, there you go. Watch as those lcd prices continue to drop by hundreds of dollars. So, who's the dumb sheep. You think I'm going to break a sweat whether the xbox 360 is at the $399 or $499 point. Its about value for the money, not the actual dollar amount.


Yeah, right Mr. cheapass gamer, who wont' buy a DS until the first price drop, which was a measley $20 so he can pat himself on the back for being a genius shopper. Wow, you really scored big time, dude. 20 whole dollars, here have a frickin cookie.

So which one is it? Huh? C'mon brainiac, am I a "cheapskate" for waiting until the price dropped or is Gadfly a "dumbsheep" for buying a LCD before the prices dropped?

You've basically been contradicting yourself based on who your trying to insult, but I guess when you've run out of any coherant arguments to back up your wacked out thought process all you can resort to is following people around in threads and hurling insults.

Well guess what? You're a raving lunatic. So maybe while you still have a shred of credibility left you should buzz off.


So, which is it, spanky, you either have money or you don't. You can afford a next gen console or not. What happened to your mortgage?! How about answering those questions? Ack, ack, ack.

Well, as much as you've been wetting your pants at the thought of me being in poverty, I could buy a 360 at launch. The "premium" bundle. Many times over.

You see, like everybody has been trying to tell you, people don't get rich by pissing their money down the toilet at every first opportunity. So, while I'm sure you feel so very proud of yourself for your slam dunk of an insult you're throwing at me you're actually just making yourself out to be the arrogant and annoying brat that we all know you to be.

I think it's time for Mommy and Daddy Waco to send the "Kid" to Brat Camp.

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

I thought that Gears of War was a 3rd person shooter. I seem to remember reading somewhere about that, them also talking about having RE4/God of War-style conext sensitive moves to use, such as shoving a grenade down an enemies throat and such. I also was reading about how it had gameplay that was almost like Kill.Switch. Maybe I was reading about something else. Dark Sector, perhaps?

I think it was an issue of Game Informer that had this info that you are talking about. From what I remember, everything you mentioned is for Gears of War, especially the Kill.Switch-type of gameplay.

From the OXM footage, Dark Sector looks to be a stealth game. That's one that I will have to see the finished product before I know if I want it or not.

[Gadfly2317]

So which one is it? Huh? C'mon brainiac, am I a "cheapskate" for waiting until the price dropped or is Gadfly a "dumbsheep" for buying a LCD before the prices dropped?

He's losing his sh!t because he's choosing to defend the indefensible. He'd have had some credibility if he'd just said, "yeah, its BS but I still want an xbox 1.5 for reasons x,y, & z.

And he can't even hurl a decen insult and his LCD analogy doesn't even make sense; any TV, Mp3 player, any computer, you name it. . . whenever you choose to step up and get one you KNOW for a fact that in a couple years there will be newer and cheaper tech. This has nothing to do with debating the issue of MS stripping off what it said were standard features and creating a two tiered system.

There is no comparing the purchase of a television--you have to buy one some time--to the imminent release of two gaming systems. Waco himself has said he only wants ONE next gen system, and I'm in the same camp; as such when two systems are launching within 12 months of each other its reasonable to compare what you are getting for the money, or at least be smart enough to wait until you get your hands on both systems. If you are going to get just one, which one will have the longer life-span of support and the better range of games?

He knows in his heart the answer is Ps3, but his itch to jump at MS's command has his logic twisted higher up his ass than his overly tight panties.

[trebor]

He's losing his sh!t because he's choosing to defend the indefensible. He'd have had some credibility if he'd just said, "yeah, its BS but I still want an xbox 1.5 for reasons x,y, & z.

Totally. All him AND TMG would have to say is "I want Halo 3, so regardless I'm getting a 360" and that is all it would take. But instead they're just polluting this forum with mind-bendingly insipid logic and childish insult hurling.


And he can't even hurl a decen insult and his LCD analogy doesn't even make sense; any TV, Mp3 player, any computer, you name it. . . whenever you choose to step up and get one you KNOW for a fact that in a couple years there will be newer and cheaper tech. This has nothing to do with debating the issue of MS stripping off what it said were standard features and creating a two tiered system.

Personally, I'm enjoying watching Waco lose his marbles over this.


There is no comparing the purchase of a television--you have to buy one some time--to the imminent release of two gaming systems. Waco himself has said he only wants ONE next gen system, and I'm in the same camp; as such when two systems are launching within 12 months of each other its reasonable to compare what you are getting for the money, or at least be smart enough to wait until you get your hands on both systems. If you are going to get just one, which one will have the longer life-span of support and the better range of games?

He knows in his heart the answer is Ps3, but his itch to jump at MS's command has his logic twisted higher up his ass than his overly tight panties.

Well, what kills me is that Waco, and TMG, don't even know Jack Sh!t about the PS3, it's price, what will come in the standard package, and what titles will launch with it, yet they have made this resolute decision that the 360 is the only console for them.

Then Waco has the gall to hurl insults towards people who are taking the "wait and see" approach and get a possible 360 price drop before the PS3 is launched. Or is it that Waco is insulting anyone who will mindlessly buy a 360 at launch? I don't know really, seeing as how he's got his head so far up his ass at the moment I can't tell if he's for it or against it.

[Gadfly2317]

Well, what kills me is that Waco, and TMG, don't even know Jack Sh!t about the PS3, it's price, what will come in the standard package, and what titles will launch with it, yet they have made this resolute decision that the 360 is the only console for them.

Well, TMG I can understand, he's only had an Xbox, and I could be mistaken, but I think before that he was a PC gamer. So yeah, to suggest he won't be totally happy with 360 has never been my point. I don't even know why I was arguing with him.

Waco, though, I'm just not understanding right now. I don't mean to insult the guy. . .he's generally had a really analytical head on his shoulders, and he's also had some of the sharpest most accurate criticisms of the xbox as a console, from its short ass life span, charging for Live--a service he's slammed, to its narrow library. Waco's a guy who's championed originality and off-beat titles--the likes of which NEVER showed up on xbox-- as well as main stream stuff, and the thing is, jumping in with the 360 when you want to limit yourself to one main next-gen console is a huge leap of faith.

Just the launch line-up alone is almost completely recycled crap, sports, shooters, racers, and PC ports like Oblivion. Some of the 360's "next gen" titles are stuff that are also coming out on Ps2 and Xbox, looking about as good. It looks like Xbox all over again;and it wasn't just narrow library, it was the screwing they gave by essentially pulling the plug just 3 1/2 yrs into the system. MS may SAY they are expanding 360 to be a a system with broader appeal, but I cannot trust what they SAY, so I have no choice but to wait and see some results.

The lousy two-tiered system, hokey backwards compatibility, non-standard HD, and over-pricing are really just final straws--its hard to build trust that you are not going to screw people again when the first thing you do with your new system is try and mislead people and screw them over.

Anything could happen, and Sony could blow everything, rip customers, have no games; and conversely, perahps 360 will sell like mad in the US giving japanese developers a huge financial incentive to support it. But for someone like Waco and I who both were ultimately dissapointed enough with Xbox to sell it and far prefer the Ps2 despite its graphical inferiority. . .going "all in" with a poor hand like 360 when you only want one next gen console and haven't seen all the cards yet is a lousy gamble.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Its not all about how it looks, although that is a factor, its about how the games play or in other words, gameplay. GOW may show its age but its the kind of game that people wants to play. The PS2 may be 5 yrs old but it is still coming out with games with gameplay that entices people. Perfect example is Katamari Damacy. The graphics sucks and it looks like what a NES can churn out. But the gameplay man, the gameplay. Its simple, its straight forward, and yet addicting. And guess what? Its only on PS2, the game, the gameplay, the originality. FPS, Racers, Sports titles are available everywhere, on the other hand.

Madden looks better on the 360! Woohoo! But the gameplay is available in the PS2, GC, and Xbox! So big deal.

Well I personally thinke Katamari Plays like Shi+ and it boggles my mind why anyone would want to play that the same with ICO the same with Beyond Good and Evil the same with Animal crossing.

Gameplay is so subjective that I really didn't get into I may see something as better physic model on sniper shot in GR3 as a significant gameplay change you may not. Are you going to tell me I'm wrong and you're right. By what criteira can you base that on. Just like the games I listed above I thought were completely over rated and romanticized by the internet but my opinion is just that. But the technical aspects of games are less subjective. As much as I loved GOW there was nothing remarkable about the gameplay it was fun but in just game play terms it's barely top 10 action games that's been released this gen in my opinion but the graphics, pacing, story, and characters put it over the top. Even with that the game still looked dated.

That's why I didn't name games because you could say they aren't worth it they are on the PC or some other such nonsense I wouldn't agree then we are running in circles.

[trebor]

The lousy two-tiered system, hokey backwards compatibility, non-standard HD, and over-pricing are really just final straws--its hard to build trust that you are not going to screw people again when the first thing you do with your new system is try and mislead people and screw them over.

This sums it up rather nicely.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

I love this line. Game-lovers are supposed to go after a dozen or so rehashes on 360, over the hundreds of titles on PS2 simply because they look better. That's not game-lover Drunk, that's a graphics lover.

So Fu***ing what! I'm a graphics whore! OK what's your point I don't deserve to play games? Personnally even beyond the graphics I haven't seen much worthwhile on the PS2 anyway. GOW was fun Shadow of the Collussus looks mildly interesting.

I do think at this point 360 has some in merit being the first next-gen system. If you want to pop in a game and impress your friends with "cutting edge" technology, you might get some money's worth out of it. Still, I can't see how people who love games would choose to play primarily on 360. since there are so few...games. What's availible is rehash-central, and as we all know from their constant taunts of PS2 gamers, XBox owners HATE rehashes. (Therefore, I anticipate them avoiding PGR3 and DOA4 like the plague ;))


Your opinion on the 360 games is just that, your opinion. I know you are used to buying consoles at launch with overwhelming innovative and new gameplay mechanics (note that is sarcasm) Exactly what is wrong with gamers wanting to continue the next gen franchises they know and love. And as for your Xbot fan comment get of the internet come on man "impress your friends with your new tech"? if you think this is the only reason people are Xbox fans then it's no point debating with you.

Elder Scrolls is the only launch game that looks at all interesting to me. Gears of War would raise my number of desireable 360 games in development to a whopping "2." That's a bit shy of what would motivate me to plop down a few hundred at launch. Also, nearly every single game I bought and enjoyed on XBox sold like crap, and will almost certainly not see a sequal. JSRF 2?, Panzer Dragoon?, Deathrow 2?...yeah right.

XBox did a good job of tempting me at launch, and while I didn't bite for a while, at least the interest was there. This launch looks to be more tepid than PSP.

Your whole post could've been regulated into one sentence. Theres not enough games I want to get one yet. That's it everything else is you trying to be an elitist gamer who is trying to educate us "Xbots" on the finer points of good game taste.

[Gadfly2317]

Well I personally thinke Katamari Plays like Shi+ and it boggles my mind why anyone would want to play that the same with ICO the same with Beyond Good and Evil the same with Animal crossing.

Gameplay is so subjective that I really didn't get into I may see something as better physic model on sniper shot in GR3 as a significant gameplay change you may not. Are you going to tell me I'm wrong and you're right. By what criteira can you base that on. Just like the games I listed above I thought were completely over rated and romanticized by the internet but my opinion is just that. But the technical aspects of games are less subjective. As much as I loved GOW there was nothing remarkable about the gameplay it was fun but in just game play terms it's barely top 10 action games that's been released this gen in my opinion but the graphics, pacing, story, and characters put it over the top. Even with that the game still looked dated.

That's why I didn't name games because you could say they aren't worth it they are on the PC or some other such nonsense I wouldn't agree then we are running in circles.
What a person likes is totally subjective; what is new gameplay is not. In Katamari, whether you liked it or thought it was good or not, is a game where you get to do something entirely different than you've done in the thousands of other games you've played. A new physics model on a sniper shot is not new gameplay, its just a tweak on something you've done a million times: shoot an enemy.

I'm not trying to criticize your taste; a preference for something new vs. preferring newer graphics and better physics for racing or combat. . . .those are just preferences.

That said, in this particular thread I'd hoped to separate criticism from enthusiasm; I really was wanting to hear what those coveting a 360 were specifically digging about the new games, even if its stuff like descriptions of how the shooting is different because of next gen tech. A list of games you guys want isn't very intersting, I was hoping to hear what it is about those games, especially the sequels, that makes them next gen, that makes the game play fresh and worth experiencing it again. Like RBH. . . he listed a lot of games, but I was hoping he'd take at least a couple of the games and say some specific things about them. It's just been too negative around here, and truly uninformative with no one talking specifics about next gen gaming and next gen games.

[trebor]

Well I personally thinke Katamari Plays like Shi+ and it boggles my mind why anyone would want to play that the same with ICO the same with Beyond Good and Evil the same with Animal crossing.

That's a random title to bring up. :confused:

[Gadfly2317]

OK, 2 minutes later and I recant my attempt to not be an elitist and grant that taste is subjective. While what you like is what you like, repeating the same old thing over and over with better graphics is objectively less desirable than new experiences.

Some people don't like new; they'll always eat at the same restaurants, always frequent the same bar, always watch the same kind of crap on TV, always play the same shooters over and over, maybe never get more than a 100 miles away from the place they were born. Neophobes--fearing new; it is the majority of the species. Mentally and creatively dead. . . these are the people that Zombie games and movies are parodying.

Neophile; loving new, seeking new things; the explorers, Columbus; the nations founding fathers creating a new form of government, scientists asking WHY, discarding the superstitions that the world was flat or the center of the solar system and setting us down a path that ultimately led us to the moon and beyond. . . .NEW and love of new is the drive of life, the creative spark, the momentum of ever evolving out of the muck;

and that was why I celebrate the new, the creative, the innovative in gaming; and that's why I hereby declare, as a proud neophile elitist, that if our species were all like xbots, we'd not just be still swinging from the trees and eating lice off each other's backs, we would have never crawled out of the oceans in the first place.

[Mochan]

So Fu***ing what! I'm a graphics whore! OK what's your point I don't deserve to play games? Personnally even beyond the graphics I haven't seen much worthwhile on the PS2 anyway. GOW was fun Shadow of the Collussus looks mildly interesting.

The problem is you said a gamer who loves games is wonkers to play on a system with dated graphics like the PS2. When what you should have said is a graphics whore has no business pimping the PS2.

Because if you look at it, around here there are no graphics whores pimping the PS2 for its graphics (not even I would dare do such a thing! In fact, when FFX came out I actuaully criticized it for looking so pixelated). On the other hand a lot of people who do love games do pimp the PS2 for various reasons, I for instance will praise it for Disgaea, which looked like **** but had great gameplay and an even better personality - it was *gasp* a genuinely fun game! I love games and the PS2 is great on this end.

So if you honestly can't see how people who love games can play primarily on the PS2, it just means that you're a grapics whore and you don't appreciate the other things that other gamers (who also love games) do. You're not necessarily not a game-lover, just that you are a graphics-whore-type of game lover.

Some people don't like new; they'll always eat at the same restaurants, always frequent the same bar, always watch the same kind of crap on TV, always play the same shooters over and over, maybe never get more than a 100 miles away from the place they were born. Neophobes--fearing new; it is the majority of the species. Mentally and creatively dead. . . these are the people that Zombie games and movies are parodying.

Hey! I resent that. I always eat at the same restaurants, heck I even order the same dish. I've been eating nothing but tacos for the past two months at work. I don't watch anything but anime. I enjoy RPG, strategy and FPS. And I am so lazy I hate travellling more than 3 kms from my house.

But I am NOT mentally or creatively dead! Or at least I hope I'm not. ;P

[Gadfly2317]

Hey! I resent that. I always eat at the same restaurants, heck I even order the same dish. I've been eating nothing but tacos for the past two months at work. I don't watch anything but anime. I enjoy RPG, strategy and FPS. And I am so lazy I hate travellling more than 3 kms from my house.

But I am NOT mentally or creatively dead! Or at least I hope I'm not. ;P

Well; mentally and creatively dead is on the extreme end of my sweeping generalizations, but Dr. Gadfly still reccommends a sabbatical, un-plug your PC and TV for a month and go on an adventure! :)

[Gadfly2317]

I'll do that on my vacation. But no... wait... I am saving my vacation up to play Oblivion non-stop for three weeks. Mwahahahha!!!


Maybe I should slow down and drop my PC for a few weeks. I need to get back into my meditations.

At first I thought you said "medications". . . but then, you know where my mind is!

Meditation is good; I've been meaning to get back into yoga, and also read more. We all have our habits and ruts; good old VGR is one of them for me!

[Mochan]

I'll do that on my vacation. But no... wait... I am saving my vacation up to play Oblivion non-stop for three weeks. Mwahahahha!!!


Maybe I should slow down and drop my PC for a few weeks. I need to get back into my meditations.

[mandark]

Well I personally thinke Katamari Plays like Shi+ and it boggles my mind why anyone would want to play that the same with ICO the same with Beyond Good and Evil the same with Animal crossing.

Gameplay is so subjective that I really didn't get into I may see something as better physic model on sniper shot in GR3 as a significant gameplay change you may not. Are you going to tell me I'm wrong and you're right. By what criteira can you base that on. Just like the games I listed above I thought were completely over rated and romanticized by the internet but my opinion is just that. But the technical aspects of games are less subjective. As much as I loved GOW there was nothing remarkable about the gameplay it was fun but in just game play terms it's barely top 10 action games that's been released this gen in my opinion but the graphics, pacing, story, and characters put it over the top. Even with that the game still looked dated.

That's why I didn't name games because you could say they aren't worth it they are on the PC or some other such nonsense I wouldn't agree then we are running in circles.
How dare you blasphemize games like Katamari Damacy, ICO, Animal Crossing and Beyond Good and Evil? YOU wouldn't know a good game if it bit you in the A$$. No wonder great games like PDO, Strangers Wrath, and Psychonauts sold like crap for the Xbox. Xbots are too concerned with style over substance. I at least have the decency to give your beloved Halo the props it deserved.
You call better physics for a sniper rifle significant gameplay change? Man, you are laughable. What would you call a helmet flying off a soldiers head then? The second coming of Christ? Your argument also props Half Life 2 head over heels over any other title in the X-box lineup because the physics in that game are head over heels over any other game including the Halo series.

[theWacoKid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by theWacoKid
Who the hell are you kidding, you wouldn't buy a DS until it dropped $20 in price, you were never in the market for a 360 period. Give me a break with this ridiculous hypocrisy. You cry up a river how you have a mortgage to pay off and that $20 is important to you, but now, you're talking about shellng out for a next gen console. ROFLMAO!

Let's all take a look at the "logic" of the Waco Kid for a moment...
Quote:
Originally Posted by theWacoKid

You got some nerve, you bought a 32 inch lcd, didn't you. How much money you want to bet, that I can buy a 360 and the same lcd you bought when the 360 launches for the same price you paid for the lcd alone. You want to talk rip off, there you go. Watch as those lcd prices continue to drop by hundreds of dollars. So, who's the dumb sheep. You think I'm going to break a sweat whether the xbox 360 is at the $399 or $499 point. Its about value for the money, not the actual dollar amount.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theWacoKid

Yeah, right Mr. cheapass gamer, who wont' buy a DS until the first price drop, which was a measley $20 so he can pat himself on the back for being a genius shopper. Wow, you really scored big time, dude. 20 whole dollars, here have a frickin cookie.

So which one is it? Huh? C'mon brainiac, am I a "cheapskate" for waiting until the price dropped or is Gadfly a "dumbsheep" for buying a LCD before the prices dropped?

You've basically been contradicting yourself based on who your trying to insult, but I guess when you've run out of any coherant arguments to back up your wacked out thought process all you can resort to is following people around in threads and hurling insults.

Hey, loser, gadfly, was ragging about the 360 being a rip off when he himself shelled out big money for an lcd in a market where lcd prices are dropping rapidly. That's hypocrisy at its finest. Xbox 360 buyes are dumbsheep, but he's making an expensive lcd purchase in this kind of market, not to mention his psp impulse purchase. He's not one to lecture other people about value shopping.

So, what does that have to do with you, Mr. Cheapass Gamer who brags about his DS purchase? I'll tell you what. NOTHING. Two different gamers, two different situations,but you're so pissed you're looking for some way to get back at theWacoKid. Whatever. I'm not the one with the phony baloney excuses citing my effin mortgage payments as my excuse for not having purchased a nintendo DS earlier. And now you're in the market for next gen, pulease!

[Fivespot]

Hey, loser, gadfly, was ragging about the 360 being a rip off when he himself shelled out big money for an lcd in a market where lcd prices are dropping rapidly. That's hypocrisy at its finest. Xbox 360 buyes are dumbsheep, but he's making an expensive lcd purchase in this kind of market, not to mention his psp impulse purchase. He's not one to lecture other people about value shopping.

So, what does that have to do with you, Mr. Cheapass Gamer who brags about his DS purchase? I'll tell you what. NOTHING. Two different gamers, two different situations,but you're so pissed you're looking for some way to get back at theWacoKid. Whatever. I'm not the one with the phony baloney excuses citing my effin mortgage payments as my excuse for not having purchased a nintendo DS earlier. And now you're in the market for next gen, pulease!

This is nice. Hey, Waco. No one will pay any attention to your comments when they start "Hey, Loser" Why are you resorting to name calling as a way to get your point across. Sorry for stating the obvious here - but its not working.

VGR is a place to exchange opinions and argue about which system is better but its not a place to hate on everyone! I'm sure others have participated but you seem the most guilty of this offense as of late.

Please quit polluting these threads with this nonsense. You may end up on everyone's ignore list if this continues. I personally enjoy your input except for this type of behaviour. Maybe I'm alone, but I'm willing to bet you'd make a stronger argument if you left this junk out of your posts.

[trebor]

Hey, loser, gadfly, was ragging about the 360 being a rip off when he himself shelled out big money for an lcd in a market where lcd prices are dropping rapidly. That's hypocrisy at its finest. Xbox 360 buyes are dumbsheep, but he's making an expensive lcd purchase in this kind of market, not to mention his psp impulse purchase. He's not one to lecture other people about value shopping.

So, what does that have to do with you, Mr. Cheapass Gamer who brags about his DS purchase? I'll tell you what. NOTHING. Two different gamers, two different situations,but you're so pissed you're looking for some way to get back at theWacoKid. Whatever. I'm not the one with the phony baloney excuses citing my effin mortgage payments as my excuse for not having purchased a nintendo DS earlier. And now you're in the market for next gen, pulease!

You're not going to bait me again like you did before, so I really don't see the point in this continual farce, but if you keep insisting on making yourself out to be a malajusted lunatic, far be it from me to stop you. If you can't see the hypocricy in your statements, then you obviously don't have the mental capacity to carry on an intelligible debate - hence the repeated attacks.

Why didn't I buy a DS before? Because I didn't want to buy a DS before. How's that for a reason? A price drop is as good as any other reason to take the plunge.

I think you're probably just jealous because for what you paid for a DS and Mario 64, I got a DS, Feel the Magic, a car charger, a screen protector, earphones, and some other crap. So just because I waited for a good deal doesn't make me a "cheapskate", it makes me a savvy shopper.

Despite all this, which you apparently just can't let go, you still haven't answered the burning question...are you buying a 360 at launch?

p.s. please continue to refer to yourself in the 3rd person - which always is a sign of a well-adjusted individual :rolleyes:

[Gadfly2317]

Hey, loser, gadfly, was ragging about the 360 being a rip off when he himself shelled out big money for an lcd in a market where lcd prices are dropping rapidly. That's hypocrisy at its finest. Xbox 360 buyes are dumbsheep, but he's making an expensive lcd purchase in this kind of market, not to mention his psp impulse purchase. He's not one to lecture other people about value shopping.


I'm not sure why you can't tell the difference between buying a television and the situation where you compare 3 consoles that are all going to launch within twelve months from each other.

Televisions have been around for what, 70 years? They keep getting better and cheaper and always will. Every person who's ever bought any television faces that prospect; it's a fact of life, unless you are so paralyzed by this notion that you NEVER step up and buy. In my personal situation I also had no choice but to get an LCD because my living situation changed to one where I have to relocate for business reasons every 90 days or so. Lugging around my heavy old tv wasn't an option.

You have addressed NOTHING I said below. . .just wimped out and changed the topic to TV's. There's no comparison. I'll say again what I said to MG, if you want a 360, just get one. But the points about someone who wants only 1 console, about MS's behavior not inspiring trust that they are going to do any different than they did with Xbox, about them pushing the price up as high as the anticipated Ps3 price, about their ability to actually deliver as diverse a lineup as Ps2. . .you won't discuss valid points; you didn't address anything in the following for instance:

Waco, though, I'm just not understanding right now. I don't mean to insult the guy. . .he's generally had a really analytical head on his shoulders, and he's also had some of the sharpest most accurate criticisms of the xbox as a console, from its short ass life span, charging for Live--a service he's slammed, to its narrow library. Waco's a guy who's championed originality and off-beat titles--the likes of which NEVER showed up on xbox-- as well as main stream stuff, and the thing is, jumping in with the 360 when you want to limit yourself to one main next-gen console is a huge leap of faith.

Just the launch line-up alone is almost completely recycled crap, sports, shooters, racers, and PC ports like Oblivion. Some of the 360's "next gen" titles are stuff that are also coming out on Ps2 and Xbox, looking about as good. It looks like Xbox all over again;and it wasn't just narrow library, it was the screwing they gave by essentially pulling the plug just 3 1/2 yrs into the system. MS may SAY they are expanding 360 to be a a system with broader appeal, but I cannot trust what they SAY, so I have no choice but to wait and see some results.

Waco, you claim to want only one next gen console. Based on the 360 launch line-up, the two-tiered system, the Xbox and its fanbases history, Ms's unwillingness to stand behind its last system when the going got rough, and how the Ps2 was the system that delivered more of the games you like. . . are you really telling me you are unwilling to wait a bit and actually get your hands on both sytems, that you have the BLIND FAITH that the 360 is gonna be a more satisfying and well rounded system than the Ps3?

[Aku]

Basically some guards got hungry and due to the parameters set in their RAI, they went out to hunt for food. Then went into the forest and poached a deer. Another non-hungry guard out of their group saw this, and attacked them for poaching. They got into a battle, which attracted more guards, and the guards got into full swing. Since the guards were occupied with brawling each other, the shops had no security so thieves took advantage of the situation and started stripping the stalls naked. This made shopkeepers angry and they started brawling the thieves! This in turn caught the attention of some guards, who beat up the brawlers! Then teh rest of the townsfolk saw their friends being maltreated by guards, so they joined in the fray!

Heh, what if some quest-critical NPC gets killed in some melee you had nothing to do with? Game over? LOL!!!

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

Like RBH. . . he listed a lot of games, but I was hoping he'd take at least a couple of the games and say some specific things about them.


Oh, so that's what you wanted...oh, ok. No prob.


Oblivion - Morrowind was the best RPG on Xbox that wasn't developed by Bioware, and since this sequel's supposed to have better combat, game engine, and story, it's only natural that I would want this one
Saint's Row - Looks like a GTA-wannabe (safe to say it is), but since Volition (Punisher, Summoner 2, Red Faction 1 & 2) is developing this game, it should be solid overall.
Kameo - Wanted this one since it was first announced for Xbox. Interest level has dropped, but I'll still pick it up at some point.
Dead of Alive 4 - Unless there's a DOA5 for next gen, this will probably be my only 1-on-1 fighting game for next gen, regardless of a VF5, Tekken 6, Soul Calibur 4, etc.
Tomb Raider Legend - Crystal Dynamics doing the development on this, and from the previews and videos, it looks like it could bring the TR franchise back from the dead.
The Godfather - Wanted this for the current gen, but with b/c questionable, I would rather get it for a next-gen system
Rumble Roses XX - First RR was solid, though lacking a season mode, so if this one has those things, XX will probably be my one wrestling game next-gen
Gears of War - I'm actually more interested in this than Perfect Dark 0, or any FPS I have seen appearing on 360 so far. Hopefully, Cliffy B and co will concentrate on a co-op mode than having more useless deathmatch and capture the flag modes like the other shooters seem to have.
Too Human - Silicon Knights developing this one, and since they aren't on Nintendo's leashes anymore, I'm eager to see how their original title turns out.
Fable 2 - Enjoyed the first Fable, and will get Lost Chapters as well.
Jade Empire 2 (?) - First Jade Empire is my personal #1 Xbox-only title & #2 GOTY contender overall, so it only makes sense that I would want to play a sequel. Plus, It's Bioware, so until they start making crappy games, I'll buy it.
Madden or NCAA 2007 - Even with NFL 2k series, I always felt that EA football games had better gameplay.
Ninja Gaiden 2 - NG1 was my favorite game of 2004, so I definitely want to play the sequel.

Dark Sector - Interest isn't as high, since it's a stealth title
The Darkness - Based on comic book that I never read, but so far, I'm interested.
Lost Odyssey - Probably the only J-RPG I'm looking forward to next-gen
99 Nights - This game sums up what I've seen from next-gen so far: more enemies on screen, more action, more polygons, etc
DOA Code Cronus - I have no idea what this will be, but as long it isn't another shameless game just to put the DOA girls in skimpy clothes, I'm interested.
NBA 2k7 - either this or Live 07, whichever has better gameplay.

Overall, my interest in next-gen games will depend on the developers. If I've enjoyed their games in the past, then I have no problem wanting their next-gen titles even if they are sequels. I don't need too many Japanese titles for 360, and if there's a lot that I would want to play, I'll get a not-so high PS3 and play them later on.

[Gadfly2317]

Oh, so that's what you wanted...oh, ok. No prob.


Oblivion - Morrowind was the best RPG on Xbox that wasn't developed by Bioware, and since this sequel's supposed to have better combat, game engine, and story, it's only natural that I would want this one
Saint's Row - Looks like a GTA-wannabe (safe to say it is), but since Volition (Punisher, Summoner 2, Red Faction 1 & 2) is developing this game, it should be solid overall.
Kameo - Wanted this one since it was first announced for Xbox. Interest level has dropped, but I'll still pick it up at some point.
Dead of Alive 4 - Unless there's a DOA5 for next gen, this will probably be my only 1-on-1 fighting game for next gen, regardless of a VF5, Tekken 6, Soul Calibur 4, etc.
Tomb Raider Legend - Crystal Dynamics doing the development on this, and from the previews and videos, it looks like it could bring the TR franchise back from the dead.
The Godfather - Wanted this for the current gen, but with b/c questionable, I would rather get it for a next-gen system
Rumble Roses XX - First RR was solid, though lacking a season mode, so if this one has those things, XX will probably be my one wrestling game next-gen
Gears of War - I'm actually more interested in this than Perfect Dark 0, or any FPS I have seen appearing on 360 so far. Hopefully, Cliffy B and co will concentrate on a co-op mode than having more useless deathmatch and capture the flag modes like the other shooters seem to have.
Too Human - Silicon Knights developing this one, and since they aren't on Nintendo's leashes anymore, I'm eager to see how their original title turns out.
Fable 2 - Enjoyed the first Fable, and will get Lost Chapters as well.
Jade Empire 2 (?) - First Jade Empire is my personal #1 Xbox-only title & #2 GOTY contender overall, so it only makes sense that I would want to play a sequel. Plus, It's Bioware, so until they start making crappy games, I'll buy it.
Madden or NCAA 2007 - Even with NFL 2k series, I always felt that EA football games had better gameplay.
Ninja Gaiden 2 - NG1 was my favorite game of 2004, so I definitely want to play the sequel.

Dark Sector - Interest isn't as high, since it's a stealth title
The Darkness - Based on comic book that I never read, but so far, I'm interested.
Lost Odyssey - Probably the only J-RPG I'm looking forward to next-gen
99 Nights - This game sums up what I've seen from next-gen so far: more enemies on screen, more action, more polygons, etc
DOA Code Cronus - I have no idea what this will be, but as long it isn't another shameless game just to put the DOA girls in skimpy clothes, I'm interested.
NBA 2k7 - either this or Live 07, whichever has better gameplay.

Overall, my interest in next-gen games will depend on the developers. If I've enjoyed their games in the past, then I have no problem wanting their next-gen titles even if they are sequels. I don't need too many Japanese titles for 360, and if there's a lot that I would want to play, I'll get a not-so high PS3 and play them later on.

Thanks for the more specific feedback. You mentioned a couple games that very much appeal to me. Too Human, Ninja Gaiden 2, and Fable 2. However, those are all most assuredly a couple years down the road. Man, I just really don't want all three consoles again; Xbox left me feeling pretty empty overall last time, and thus the hesitency; the feeling that there will be plenty of blockbuster eye-candy festivals on both systems, but that 360 won't have any of those more original games I loved so much on Ps2. I'll just have to wait and see. I haven't ruled the 360 out, it's just the one I'm most skeptical about, the one that will have to win me as a customer all over again.

That's part of why I wanted to see a positive thread on the 360; in truth, its impossible for me as a gamer to actually dislike any of these gaming systems despite what sys wars smack talk might lead one to believe. . . because they all have some good games on them and I like games.

One thing I was thinking though, was your comment about Silicon Knights "no longer being on Nintendo's leash" and seeing what they can do. I liked Silicon Knights before their partnership with NIntendo, but I'm not sure "being on Nintendo's leash" is something that you can easily point to as a bad thing. Rare sure seemed to nose-dive after its tenure "on Nintendo's leash". . . with Kameo wandering way off track, the only new idea "Grabbed by the Ghoulies" completely lacked that "fun" factor, and a tepid if beautiful resurrection of the old Nintendo title Conker.

Silicon Knights received creative and design feedback from Nintendo on Eternal Darkness, and it is, IMO, not just SK's best game, but one of the best horror games ever made.

And Retro is a western developer, once a virtual unknown, and with nintendo's material and feedback on gameplay and music, they've turned out two 3-d masterpieces in Metroid Prime and Echoes. I don't think it hurt any 2nd party to get some collaborative feedback from the master game designers at Nintendo.

[Mochan]

Heh, what if some quest-critical NPC gets killed in some melee you had nothing to do with? Game over? LOL!!!

The solution Beth had for this was rather lame; according to pete (or was it kathode), the quest critical NPCs will be invulnerable and you can't kill them (unlike in Morrowind where you get that lame "the world is doomed please reload" message).

Nobody quite does it like Fallout or Arcanum I guess. Arcanum could care less if you massacred every single person in the world. :)

[Aku]

The solution Beth had for this was rather lame; according to pete (or was it kathode), the quest critical NPCs will be invulnerable and you can't kill them (unlike in Morrowind where you get that lame "the world is doomed please reload" message).

Heh, that's still better than certain Morrowind quest mods, where you kill somebody important or do something you're not supposed to, then find out twenty hours of gameplay later that you're hosed (ahem...Underground...cough).

[Mochan]

Let us not go on the subject of Morrowind's mods. You know I have much frustration to deal with on those ;)

[joquito]

What a person likes is totally subjective; what is new gameplay is not. In Katamari, whether you liked it or thought it was good or not, is a game where you get to do something entirely different than you've done in the thousands of other games you've played. A new physics model on a sniper shot is not new gameplay, its just a tweak on something you've done a million times: shoot an enemy.

I'm not trying to criticize your taste; a preference for something new vs. preferring newer graphics and better physics for racing or combat. . . .those are just preferences.

That said, in this particular thread I'd hoped to separate criticism from enthusiasm; I really was wanting to hear what those coveting a 360 were specifically digging about the new games, even if its stuff like descriptions of how the shooting is different because of next gen tech. A list of games you guys want isn't very intersting, I was hoping to hear what it is about those games, especially the sequels, that makes them next gen, that makes the game play fresh and worth experiencing it again. Like RBH. . . he listed a lot of games, but I was hoping he'd take at least a couple of the games and say some specific things about them. It's just been too negative around here, and truly uninformative with no one talking specifics about next gen gaming and next gen games.

What was so new about Katamari ? I've seen gameplay like it in Fuzion Frenzy, a launch game for the Xbox, and even marble madness for the NES. Stating that it provides something that games like PGR or Ghost Recon doesn't is completely absurd.

[Gadfly2317]

What was so new about Katamari ? I've seen gameplay like it in Fuzion Frenzy, a launch game for the Xbox, and even marble madness for the NES. Stating that it provides something that games like PGR or Ghost Recon doesn't is completely absurd.

How's it absurd? You don't see that in a racing game, some new tracks, cars, damage models is just tweaking gameplay but is not a significantly new gaming experience to the dozens and dozens of previous racing games we've played? Or that football tweaked every year is still the same essential game experience as football the year before?

Comparing Katamari to Marble Madness and saying it's nothing new or significantly different than previous games we've played, that its no more significantly new gameplay experience than the little tweaks to well worn shooters, racers and sports with dozens of other similar games--I mean, that just boggles the mind.

You can compare anything if that's the standard; Katamari and Marble madness both had spheres in them; a dolphin and a man are not qualitatively different because they are both mammals who nurse their young. Clouds and Oceans are not that different because they are both H2o.

Conversly, A BMW equipped with satellite radio is a major innovation and a new driving experience compared to all BMW's that came before, but that weren't equipped with sattelite radio.

I mean, that's basically what you're saying.

[Fivespot]

I have a couple reasons for wanting this next-gen console and I'll list them.

A. Its next-gen baby - I'm giddy like a little kid before Christmas. Even though the current cycle is a little short for the XBOX, I can't help but be excited for the newest console. Brings back many good memories of my childhood years when I had all the time in the world to play games and could never put them down.

B. 720p at a minimum & all games supporting 16:9 aspect ratio - mandated by MS. You've got to love that - I do!

C. XBOX Live is getting even better and it was already a blast this gen. Friends list is awesome. Halo2 ranking system is fantastic and really helps even the playing field which is a huge plus. I hate the old days of playing freaks who game 20hrs per day and make you feel like a total scrub when just trying to have a little fun. The gamer card will further fix this problem on the 360.

The gamercard (attached to tag) also tracks lots of user stats and makes them available for all online users to see. Stuff like your reputation, zone (how you play - pro, family, hardcore, etc..), what you are currently playing or if you are watching a movie (always online / every game). How many hours you logged on a specific game & if you've beaten it.

Other new features of XBOX live tie directly into the games. For example, PGR3 has a feature where players can watch others race including sponsored tournaments that could draws lots of interested onlookers - Gotham TV. You can watch a friend if you notice they are in the middle of a race, etc..

D. Controller X seems like a more comfortable Controller S only wireless (if you get that version). Plus it swiches frequencies constantly preventing any interference from other devices. My current fave controller is the WaveBird but this one looks almost as comfy and maybe even moreso.

The games will come over time but here are a few on my wishlist: Oblivion, DOA4, PGR3, Call of Duty 2, Gears of War, Halo3, Madden 360, NBA Live 360, and a few others I'm forgetting at the moment.

Speaking of Oblivion: Tons of character types, 400+ books scattered that you can read, 200+ total dungeons, it takes approximately 200 hours to do and see everything, 150+ total quests, 121 plant types randomly generated, 40 hours for average players experience, 21 secondary character attributes, 16 sq. miles for above ground maps not including dungeons, 9 major cities, 8 primary character attributes. I haven't been a huge RPG fan up to this point but I can't wait to play a game this open-ended and gorgeous (the graphics look outstanding). I read these facts in the new issue of OXM.

Maybe I'm more like the minions due to this fact, but I can't wait to play next-gen Madden and its first available on the 360. That trailer during the Super Bowl and on the net has me anxious to play it. I'm not alone. Many will grab a 360 just for this game next-gen plus the online mutiplayer to boot.

I may also pick-up the PS3 and Revolution so I'm not dedicated to just one console. I may wait longer for those however dependent on release time and beginning price.

[Fivespot]

One more thing. My xbox live subscription will transfer over to the 360 and will turn into a gold account for the new hardware at no additional fee. I confirmed as much yesterday by calling 1-800-4MY-XBOX.

Its renewal time and I wanted to make sure I didn't get screwed into a year subscription that would need upgrading in a couple months at an additional expense.

I may have held off on renewing if this weren't the case.

[Gadfly2317]

A. Its next-gen baby - I'm giddy like a little kid before Christmas. Even though the current cycle is a little short for the XBOX, I can't help but be excited for the newest console. Brings back many good memories of my childhood years when I had all the time in the world to play games and could never put them down.


Great post. You're going to need all the time in the world to get through Oblivion! The size of that game-world just boggles the mind.

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

Thanks for the more specific feedback. You mentioned a couple games that very much appeal to me. Too Human, Ninja Gaiden 2, and Fable 2. However, those are all most assuredly a couple years down the road. Man, I just really don't want all three consoles again; Xbox left me feeling pretty empty overall last time, and thus the hesitency; the feeling that there will be plenty of blockbuster eye-candy festivals on both systems, but that 360 won't have any of those more original games I loved so much on Ps2. I'll just have to wait and see. I haven't ruled the 360 out, it's just the one I'm most skeptical about, the one that will have to win me as a customer all over again.

That's part of why I wanted to see a positive thread on the 360; in truth, its impossible for me as a gamer to actually dislike any of these gaming systems despite what sys wars smack talk might lead one to believe. . . because they all have some good games on them and I like games.

I personally don't want to do three systems either. The Gamecube is the one that was empty for me, and that was made worse when I got one last month just for Zelda, and that game gets pushed back until April '06 or later. My strategy is to not rule out any systems, but more likely I will only get one more system with a 360. There hasn't been a lot of info about the game sfor the other two, but I'm leaning more towards a PS3 simply because of games like MGS4, Heavenly Sword, an almost positive Ace Combat 6, and Grand Theft Auto, amont other titles that haven't been announced. If I had to go for just one system, it would be 360 simply because (from the 360.ign.com game list) there's enough games that should come out that I would enjoy.

You're right about Too Human, Ninja Gaiden 2 and Fable 2....they are far from being released (hopefully TH may see a late '06 date). That makes it easier to wait until sometime '06 before I jump on a 360.

One thing I was thinking though, was your comment about Silicon Knights "no longer being on Nintendo's leash" and seeing what they can do. I liked Silicon Knights before their partnership with NIntendo, but I'm not sure "being on Nintendo's leash" is something that you can easily point to as a bad thing. Rare sure seemed to nose-dive after its tenure "on Nintendo's leash". . . with Kameo wandering way off track, the only new idea "Grabbed by the Ghoulies" completely lacked that "fun" factor, and a tepid if beautiful resurrection of the old Nintendo title Conker.

Silicon Knights received creative and design feedback from Nintendo on Eternal Darkness, and it is, IMO, not just SK's best game, but one of the best horror games ever made.

And Retro is a western developer, once a virtual unknown, and with nintendo's material and feedback on gameplay and music, they've turned out two 3-d masterpieces in Metroid Prime and Echoes. I don't think it hurt any 2nd party to get some collaborative feedback from the master game designers at Nintendo.

The only Silicon Knights game I remember before they went with Nintendo was Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain. I do remember hearing that Too Human was actually finished (or very close to it) for the PS1 before they went with the medium "N", but, IMO, they never got a chance to bring that game over to any of Nintendo's systems (64, GC). Eternal Darkness was solid (though I don't care for Survival Horror), but I thought doing a remake of Metal Gear Solid was a complete waste of SK's time. If it was a remake of the NES Metal Gears, I could understand, but MGS1 wasn't a very old game to need a remake. SK could have used that dev time to actually make something original, or even finish the Too Human game. It just seemed like Nintendo didn't let them make more games, or had them make a game that wasn't necessary instead of letting them make something good and original (or finish something that was very interesting and original, from what info I remember from the Too Human game)....that's where the "no longer on Nintendo's leash" comment comes from.

Rare, on the other hand, was and so far still is, very overrated. Their N64 games stood out probably because there wasn't a lot of competition on the system to make good games. Perfect Dark, while having a good co-op, wasn't as good as Goldeneye in Multiplayer, IMO. Conker never gave me a reason to want to play, and Star Fox Adventures, while solid, felt too much like a Zelda rip-off. I still want Kameo, but I'm not expecting big things from it.

Retro, IMO, is still tight on Nintendo's leash. Before Metroid Prime, I believe they were working on a game for GC that sounded interesting. Unfortunately, that game either went to the backburner, or was trashed completely because N wanted them to work on Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime only. That series isn't going to evolve, IMO, as long as Nintendo keeps having them to make it first person-only. Will they be able to make any other games besides Prime?

I will give Nintendo credit when it comes to SK, Rare, and Retro: They did make some technically sound games, especially when it comes to framerate and lack of bugs. It's just the type of games that were/are made while with N is what I had a problem with.

[Fivespot]

I thought of something else I'd like to add. MS has great customer service for the XBOX and this looks like it will continue into this next generation.

Anytime I've had any issues or questions relating to the console, online service, specific games, etc.. I'd call the toll free phone number and get immediate support. Surprisingly, MS has fantastic customer service in my opinion (at least relative to the XBOX).

Try calling Sony if you have a problem or question - and good luck. Knowing that support is always available makes me feel more confidant when dropping lots of money on a new console.

Sorry to keep going on and on within this thread - but I thought I'd include everything that has contributed to my decision and this is certainly a part of that.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

How dare you blasphemize games like Katamari Damacy, ICO, Animal Crossing and Beyond Good and Evil? YOU wouldn't know a good game if it bit you in the A$$. No wonder great games like PDO, Strangers Wrath, and Psychonauts sold like crap for the Xbox. Xbots are too concerned with style over substance. I at least have the decency to give your beloved Halo the props it deserved.
You call better physics for a sniper rifle significant gameplay change? Man, you are laughable. What would you call a helmet flying off a soldiers head then? The second coming of Christ? Your argument also props Half Life 2 head over heels over any other title in the X-box lineup because the physics in that game are head over heels over any other game including the Halo series.

Ok it's offical you are an idiot. The games that I listed were the definition of style of substance. The basic gameplay premises in Animal Crossing (writing letters fishing,) ICO a glorified escort mission, Beyond Good and Evil the smallest open world game ever the most amaturesist stealth portions I've ever played bad combat, Katamari Damancy personally I just found boring. What made this games stand out was the style and the presentation there was nothing remarkable at all about the gameplay.

The same with the Xbox games you've named Strangers wrath was fun but it was a FPS the games biggest hook the live ammo was a glorified level up system and really wasn't neccessary since you could finish the game with only using 2 or 3 forms of ammo and there was no real reward for capturing bounties live or dead live gave you more money but in the end the money in the game was pointless. PDO was a step back gameplay wise From Panzer Dragoon Saga it was an on rail shooter fun beautiful but like the other games mentioned the graphics, art, and production put it over the top. And Psychonaughts god this game came straight out of 1998 what's the difference between Pschonaughts and Mario 64 from a gameplay standpoint. Sure the story was funny the levels were interesting and while there weren't any lava or Ice levels the gameplay in the creative level was old hat.

So my point is this you guys praise a bunch of games that really do nothing new but change the production but look down on someone who prefers games that just fine tune what they have always done?

Until the input devices get change gameplay won't change much it will just be an improvement on what we have. Even the change to 3d from 2d didn't have significant gameplay changes. Doing the same things but just in 3d now.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

OK, 2 minutes later and I recant my attempt to not be an elitist and grant that taste is subjective. While what you like is what you like, repeating the same old thing over and over with better graphics is objectively less desirable than new experiences.

Some people don't like new; they'll always eat at the same restaurants, always frequent the same bar, always watch the same kind of crap on TV, always play the same shooters over and over, maybe never get more than a 100 miles away from the place they were born. Neophobes--fearing new; it is the majority of the species. Mentally and creatively dead. . . these are the people that Zombie games and movies are parodying.

Neophile; loving new, seeking new things; the explorers, Columbus; the nations founding fathers creating a new form of government, scientists asking WHY, discarding the superstitions that the world was flat or the center of the solar system and setting us down a path that ultimately led us to the moon and beyond. . . .NEW and love of new is the drive of life, the creative spark, the momentum of ever evolving out of the muck;

and that was why I celebrate the new, the creative, the innovative in gaming; and that's why I hereby declare, as a proud neophile elitist, that if our species were all like xbots, we'd not just be still swinging from the trees and eating lice off each other's backs, we would have never crawled out of the oceans in the first place.

Well your point only has merit if what is new is automatically better which is just not true. Something fine tuned and polished usually is better than something new and raw. People aren't neccessairly afraid or unwilling to try new things. They just don't feel like what's new is better than what is already being offered. So why good to a new restarant when they can't cook a steak the way you've always liked it.

You seem to have the yuppie mentality where every thing is new must be "hot and trendy" then next month it's on to something else.

[Mochan]

Great post. You're going to need all the time in the world to get through Oblivion! The size of that game-world just boggles the mind.

Believe it or not, the size of Elder Scrolls 1 and 2 were FAR larger than Oblivion's. This was a decade ago. Daggerfall (TES2) was so large, it would take you two weeks real time to walk from one end to the other.

[Gadfly2317]

Well your point only has merit if what is new is automatically better which is just not true. Something fine tuned and polished usually is better than something new and raw. People aren't neccessairly afraid or unwilling to try new things. They just don't feel like what's new is better than what is already being offered. So why good to a new restarant when they can't cook a steak the way you've always liked it.

You seem to have the yuppie mentality where every thing is new must be "hot and trendy" then next month it's on to something else.

Totally true. . . "new" doesn't automatically mean "good." Definitely many new things suck. . . .sorry I forgot to include that point; I thought it was obvious.

Were you the guy that called me "Gadfly the love yuppie" once? Why in the hell do people keep calling me yuppie? When did this happen to me? My dad even called me a yuppie recently. Vomit. Don't effed up hair, combat boots, and a willingness to fling myself into a mosh pit mean I'm still . . . .? Sigh. . . . :(

[mandark]

So my point is this you guys praise a bunch of games that really do nothing new but change the production but look down on someone who prefers games that just fine tune what they have always done?

Until the input devices get change gameplay won't change much it will just be an improvement on what we have. Even the change to 3d from 2d didn't have significant gameplay changes. Doing the same things but just in 3d now.
So what you are saying is you would rather see developers try nothing new since it is pointless anyway. No wonder you love X-box. You get your slightly improved FPS, Racers, and Sports and you are happy. What boggles my mind is why did you love Burnout 2 so much. That game had so many differences from your typical racers that YOU should not even consider that game. Huh?

[joquito]

How's it absurd? You don't see that in a racing game, some new tracks, cars, damage models is just tweaking gameplay but is not a significantly new gaming experience to the dozens and dozens of previous racing games we've played? Or that football tweaked every year is still the same essential game experience as football the year before?

Comparing Katamari to Marble Madness and saying it's nothing new or significantly different than previous games we've played, that its no more significantly new gameplay experience than the little tweaks to well worn shooters, racers and sports with dozens of other similar games--I mean, that just boggles the mind.

You can compare anything if that's the standard; Katamari and Marble madness both had spheres in them; a dolphin and a man are not qualitatively different because they are both mammals who nurse their young. Clouds and Oceans are not that different because they are both H2o.

Conversly, A BMW equipped with satellite radio is a major innovation and a new driving experience compared to all BMW's that came before, but that weren't equipped with sattelite radio.

I mean, that's basically what you're saying.


Quit spinning!!!! How was Katamari such an advancement to the "SPHERE ROLLING" genre over Halo 2's dual wielding for FPSs? Its so easy for you to shrug off improvements to genres you don't like such as in Racers and shooters, yet praise the same in other genres. How do you justify your praise for such a mundane yet quirky, niche, game?

[Mochan]

Change from 2D to 3D had a big impact in many areas. FPS games play nothing like the old side-scrolling 2D action games. 3D Flight Sims are so vastly different from 2D sidescrolling shooters that it's not wrong to say they're totally different kinds of games.

There are some 3D games that don't have that much difference from 2D versions (like certain fighting games and in a way, racing games) but I don't think you can downplay the 2D to 3D jump.

And a lot of games started not being as good because of that. I think Super Mario 3 for instance is a lot better than any 3D platforming incarnation.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Change from 2D to 3D had a big impact in many areas. FPS games play nothing like the old side-scrolling 2D action games. 3D Flight Sims are so vastly different from 2D sidescrolling shooters that it's not wrong to say they're totally different kinds of games.

There are some 3D games that don't have that much difference from 2D versions (like certain fighting games and in a way, racing games) but I don't think you can downplay the 2D to 3D jump.

And a lot of games started not being as good because of that. I think Super Mario 3 for instance is a lot better than any 3D platforming incarnation.

Yeah I was probably reaching 3d to 2d was pretty big. But back to my point the next big innovation is going to have to be in the interface will the Revolution provide a innovation that is so good that the the industry will accept it as standard (I.E. rip off Nintendo again) I don't we'll see.

But in general a lot of games that are herald as something new really aren't that new in gameplay terms. And if they are then are they really that good?

[BaneNWN]

The main reason is I believe that this gen is tapped. There is nothing that's truly exciting sure we're getting better looking games but only in increnmental amounts. For me this gen started On 9/9/99 and really got started a year later when Seganet went live. I'm just ready to upgrade it's not so much that there are a bunch of games I'm dying for (they're are a few) but I'm just ready for the next step Just upgrading My PC around october of last year as made want the next gen consoles even more.

I honestly can't see how people who love games can primairly play on the PS2 at this point even the best looking games (GOW) are starting to show the systems age.

Finally I'm ready for the next gen of Xbox Live as well.


I play primarily PS2 when it comes to consoles why you ask??Because most of the good Xbox games come out on the PC as well.PS 2 games you see very few of thoose ever coming out for the PC.Why would i want an Xbox when i can get the same games for the PC with better graphics and more content??

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

I play primarily PS2 when it comes to consoles why you ask??Because most of the good Xbox games come out on the PC as well.PS 2 games you see very few of thoose ever coming out for the PC.Why would i want an Xbox when i can get the same games for the PC with better graphics and more content??

20 million plus Xboxes out there. How many High end PC's are on the market?? Xbox may not be a good fit for you. But I personally will play on a PC but prefer consoles and I'm not into Japanes games much (maybe 4 series from japan) why would I only play on a PS2? You like so many on the net fail to realize that for what ever reason most gamers prefer consoles and if you can get the best of the PC on a console with decent to good performance what is wrong with that.

[BaneNWN]

20 million plus Xboxes out there. How many High end PC's are on the market?? Xbox may not be a good fit for you. But I personally will play on a PC but prefer consoles and I'm not into Japanes games much (maybe 4 series from japan) why would I only play on a PS2? You like so many on the net fail to realize that for what ever reason most gamers prefer consoles and if you can get the best of the PC on a console with decent to good performance what is wrong with that.

Never said there was anything wrong with that but if you have a decent PC i find buying an Xbox a waste of money.If ya have a crap PC or no PC at all then Xbox is a good choice

[mandark]

I must add this in:

7th: Backwards compatibility. I currently am playing with all my older games from DOS, Win95, 98 in my current PC. Can you say the same for the X-box or the 360?

[mandark]

20 million plus Xboxes out there. How many High end PC's are on the market?? Xbox may not be a good fit for you. But I personally will play on a PC but prefer consoles and I'm not into Japanes games much (maybe 4 series from japan) why would I only play on a PS2? You like so many on the net fail to realize that for what ever reason most gamers prefer consoles and if you can get the best of the PC on a console with decent to good performance what is wrong with that.

I guess we are back to what is commonly known as the "circular argument". But I'll play along. Why not game on a X-box when you "can get the best of the PC on a console with decent to good performance" you ask? Let me answer that for you without any insults, BS, or any other shenanigans. I hope I get the same kind of answers back for a change. 1st: The PC offers mods and mods are usually free for download. Why buy Half Life2 and Doom3 for the X-box for 49.99 and all you get is the original game. To get the expansions you have to shell out another 49.99 for the X-box expansions(if any).

2nd: Any console controller is not even a close substitute for Keyboard and mouse when it comes to FPS. There are die hards out there that swears on the X-box controller as the best FPS controller but facts are facts. If console controllers are so great then why aren't professional gamers using gamepads in tournaments like Quakecon and counterstrike tournaments?

3rd: PC prices are not that high and you don't need a high end PC to play todays games. You just have to shop. An ATI 9800 PRO may be a dinosaur by todays standards but it is more than capable of playing DOOM3, HalfLife 2, Bet On Soldier, etc. The nonsense that you need a $2000 PC to play todays games is just that, nonsense.

4th: Installing todays games are no longer as difficult as it used to. If you keep up with updates(which can be set automatically, BTW) there are no problems.

5th: Multiplayer is free except for MMORPGS. I've been playing CS: Source for ever since I purchased HL2. Valve is updating it for free and has set an anti-cheating program in place for free. The initial install took a while but that was only on the first day. Is CS:Source included with HL2 Xbox? Really, I don't know if it is.

6th: The Xbox may get "some" of the best PC games but because of the differences in controllers, lack of mods, lack of free multiplayer how can you expect someone who has been PC gaming for a while even consider leaving PC gaming behind with all these limitations on the X-box. Also Xbox does not get ALL the Best the PC has to offer. PC is still the home for RTS, Flight Simulations, FPS, strategy, and RPGs.

I think thats enough for now.

BTW, Heres a bit of factoid you may be interested in knowing. Ghost Recon 3 is going to incorporate what made the original Ghost Recon so popular. Ghost Recon 3 will once again include the tactical map. As everyone who played the original GR knows the tactical map allows the commander(player) to set waypoints and commands for his fireteams or even individual soldiers putting tactics back into this tactical shooter. Secondly GR3 will once again allow the player to switch back and forth between the individual soldiers in the fireteams just like in the original. This is great news and makes up for the subpar GR2.

Lastly those features are only available for the PC version of the game only. So as you can see even the 360 cannot compete with the PC version of its future games.

[Gadfly2317]

I'd like to add to Mandark's comments on the irrellevance of Xbox. The main argument FOR xbox is that a lot of us prefer console gaming for comfort, ease, and standardization. But here's the thing; like you said, a really powerful PC doesn't cost much more than a 360, are easy to use now for gaming, and we all buy and own PC's ANYWAY to do all sorts of other things besides gaming.

I prefer consoles, but it looks redundant to buy a whole $400 console for a few games you coulda made an exception for and just played on your PC. Even Fable now; and I always said we'd see Fable on PC and that I'd doubly feel like an ass for ever having bought an Xbox. The only saving grace for Xbox this round was that multi-plats and Ps2 left-overs like GTA looked better on Xbox than on Ps2; but that one advantage will be no more.

[Cuddly Knife]

But what about us with no good PC to play on? Wouldn't the XBOX be the best value because it gets the PC ports and the PS2 ports with better graphics and stuff? Plus there's a lot of games that the XBOX has that niether of these other systems have.

[Gadfly2317]

But what about us with no good PC to play on? Wouldn't the XBOX be the best value because it gets the PC ports and the PS2 ports with better graphics and stuff? Plus there's a lot of games that the XBOX has that niether of these other systems have.

Xbox, maybe; 360 at $400 though???. . .I mean, you can get a relatively powerful PC, especially if you aren't having to get anything but the CPU because you've already got a monitor. . for not much more than that. It seems like, in general, people buy a new PC every few years just like they do a game console, especially if they use a computer a lot. This may not apply to everyone, but if your PC is light years from being able to play todays games at reasonably good settings, its probably time to upgrade rather than buy a console.

As far as I can tell, you game on pretty much every available device. This whole notion of a "good deal". . I mean, hell, if there's something you want to play, the price seems good to you, the games don't seem like rehashes, or whatever anyone wants a 360 for. . . it still looks like stale games and a rip-off priced system to me, but I'm tired of feeling like I'm kicking sand on people's birthday cake.

[theWacoKid]

I guess we are back to what is commonly known as the "circular argument". But I'll play along. Why not game on a X-box when you "can get the best of the PC on a console with decent to good performance" you ask? Let me answer that for you without any insults, BS, or any other shenanigans. I hope I get the same kind of answers back for a change. 1st: The PC offers mods and mods are usually free for download. Why buy Half Life2 and Doom3 for the X-box for 49.99 and all you get is the original game. To get the expansions you have to shell out another 49.99 for the X-box expansions(if any).

2nd: Any console controller is not even a close substitute for Keyboard and mouse when it comes to FPS. There are die hards out there that swears on the X-box controller as the best FPS controller but facts are facts. If console controllers are so great then why aren't professional gamers using gamepads in tournaments like Quakecon and counterstrike tournaments?

3rd: PC prices are not that high and you don't need a high end PC to play todays games. You just have to shop. An ATI 9800 PRO may be a dinosaur by todays standards but it is more than capable of playing DOOM3, HalfLife 2, Bet On Soldier, etc. The nonsense that you need a $2000 PC to play todays games is just that, nonsense.

4th: Installing todays games are no longer as difficult as it used to. If you keep up with updates(which can be set automatically, BTW) there are no problems.

5th: Multiplayer is free except for MMORPGS. I've been playing CS: Source for ever since I purchased HL2. Valve is updating it for free and has set an anti-cheating program in place for free. The initial install took a while but that was only on the first day. Is CS:Source included with HL2 Xbox? Really, I don't know if it is.

6th: The Xbox may get "some" of the best PC games but because of the differences in controllers, lack of mods, lack of free multiplayer how can you expect someone who has been PC gaming for a while even consider leaving PC gaming behind with all these limitations on the X-box. Also Xbox does not get ALL the Best the PC has to offer. PC is still the home for RTS, Flight Simulations, FPS, strategy, and RPGs.

I think thats enough for now.

BTW, Heres a bit of factoid you may be interested in knowing. Ghost Recon 3 is going to incorporate what made the original Ghost Recon so popular. Ghost Recon 3 will once again include the tactical map. As everyone who played the original GR knows the tactical map allows the commander(player) to set waypoints and commands for his fireteams or even individual soldiers putting tactics back into this tactical shooter. Secondly GR3 will once again allow the player to switch back and forth between the individual soldiers in the fireteams just like in the original. This is great news and makes up for the subpar GR2.

Lastly those features are only available for the PC version of the game only. So as you can see even the 360 cannot compete with the PC version of its future games.

Don't like gaming on a pc, end of story.

[theWacoKid]

Xbox, maybe; 360 at $400 though???. . .I mean, you can get a relatively powerful PC, especially if you aren't having to get anything but the CPU because you've already got a monitor. . for not much more than that. It seems like, in general, people buy a new PC every few years just like they do a game console, especially if they use a computer a lot. This may not apply to everyone, but if your PC is light years from being able to play todays games at reasonably good settings, its probably time to upgrade rather than buy a console.

As far as I can tell, you game on pretty much every available device. This whole notion of a "good deal". . I mean, hell, if there's something you want to play, the price seems good to you, the games don't seem like rehashes, or whatever anyone wants a 360 for. . . it still looks like stale games and a rip-off priced system to me, but I'm tired of feeling like I'm kicking sand on people's birthday cake.

And what kind of graphics and sound card does that $400 pc have? State of the art, fo sure. If you want to continue to carp on the 360, go ahead, you're not upsetting people, well, maybe TMG. But, I'd be more upset spending money on a current gen game in a genre like an fps, sports or racing and knowing that I'd be getting a hell of a lot more value out of a 360 version. That would feel like I'm getting ripped off.

The pc vs console argument is dumb. I hate the pc for gaming, always have. You can't game with a friend huddled around your computer, monitors are too small, and settting up a proper sound system is expensive, redundant and a PITA. Why would I want to listen to a game off even a high end 5.1 pc gaming sound setup, when I have a killer sound system down in the living room that would destroy it. I don't watch any dvd movies on my pc, why would I game off it. The only games that I have played on my pc have been stuff like hoyle card games, and some rts games like Warcraft. I don't think I've ever finished even one pc game in my entire life. I don't think I've even got past half way. I'm a console gamer, pc gaming sucks, not the games themselves, but the pc as a gaming platform. It bites. So, when people even suggest that I can play this game on the pc, its like who the hell cares. Maybe you do, but millions of console gamers don't give a rat's ass about gaming on their pc.

I could justify a 360 purchase just on next gen sports titles alone. You can't even quantify things like visceral impact that will be part of next gen. In madden, for instance, if you own a box seat, you'll be able to locate where your seat is in the game for a given stadium. Madden for the 360 is being kept under tight wrap and I know why. Because it's going to blow madden on current gen away so badlly, that EA wants to make sure they've maxed out sales on current gen systems. People will be going, damn, I paid 50 bucks for that hunk of crap on the ps2. I got hosed! This won't be madden from current gen with a graphics facelift, there are two separate teams developing the games.

Life's too short and uncertain to wait a whole year to experience next gen sports titles, just because I wanted to save $100 and wait for a price drop. Screw that. Some people spend money on houses, clothes, cars, vacations, booze, drugs and women. I spend it on home theater and gaming consoles. Its fun to spend money on brand new gear. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. I've dumped more money than I can remember on thoroughly useless gear. I remember buying a computer way back when, that cost me over $2000, the pos broke down, it wasn't worth repairing, and I wound up tossing the entire thing into a dumpster. So, dropping 5 bills on a 360 is going to make me break a sweat? I don't think so. A rip off console? This will be by far the best piece of console gaming hardware that's been released when it debuts in november. If this is a ripoff, then every console I've bought to date at launch was an even bigger ripoff.

I can see myself buying 5 games for the 360, maybe more before the end of the year, that's far more than I have for any other launch. I bought 4 for the DC launch, 4 for the ps2 launch. So, all you old biddies can cluck, cluck, cluck away, I'll be going next gen this november and glad of it. This current gen has been dragging on for six long years, it started with the DC and I am sick of seeing jaggies, low res textures, non-existent AI, piss poor animation, and the same game engines used over and over again. Even if I wasn't going 360, I'd be begging off this gen, just can't take playing on old retrograde hardware any longer. I'm tiref of playing on systems where the technology is a limiting factor on the games. Time to move on.

[Gadfly2317]

Some people spend money on houses, clothes, cars, vacations, booze, drugs and women. I spend it on home theater and gaming consoles.

If you expect me to give up my drugs, booze, hookers and hand-stitched italian fabric shirts for some over-priced sports video games with no jaggies. . . you, sir, are not going to have much success.


I'm tiref of playing on systems where the technology is a limiting factor on the games. Time to move on.

Seems to me what is limiting videogames is imagination and daring, not the technology. I'm sick of the jaggies too, but next-gen is going to have to show me at least ONE new kinda gaming experience before I jump.

[BaneNWN]

And what kind of graphics and sound card does that $400 pc have? State of the art, fo sure. If you want to continue to carp on the 360, go ahead, you're not upsetting people, well, maybe TMG. But, I'd be more upset spending money on a current gen game in a genre like an fps, sports or racing and knowing that I'd be getting a hell of a lot more value out of a 360 version. That would feel like I'm getting ripped off.

The pc vs console argument is dumb. I hate the pc for gaming, always have. You can't game with a friend huddled around your computer, monitors are too small, and settting up a proper sound system is expensive, redundant and a PITA. Why would I want to listen to a game off even a high end 5.1 pc gaming sound setup, when I have a killer sound system down in the living room that would destroy it. I don't watch any dvd movies on my pc, why would I game off it. The only games that I have played on my pc have been stuff like hoyle card games, and some rts games like Warcraft. I don't think I've ever finished even one pc game in my entire life. I don't think I've even got past half way. I'm a console gamer, pc gaming sucks, not the games themselves, but the pc as a gaming platform. It bites. So, when people even suggest that I can play this game on the pc, its like who the hell cares. Maybe you do, but millions of console gamers don't give a rat's ass about gaming on their pc.

I could justify a 360 purchase just on next gen sports titles alone. You can't even quantify things like visceral impact that will be part of next gen. In madden, for instance, if you own a box seat, you'll be able to locate where your seat is in the game for a given stadium. Madden for the 360 is being kept under tight wrap and I know why. Because it's going to blow madden on current gen away so badlly, that EA wants to make sure they've maxed out sales on current gen systems. People will be going, damn, I paid 50 bucks for that hunk of crap on the ps2. I got hosed! This won't be madden from current gen with a graphics facelift, there are two separate teams developing the games.

Life's too short and uncertain to wait a whole year to experience next gen sports titles, just because I wanted to save $100 and wait for a price drop. Screw that. Some people spend money on houses, clothes, cars, vacations, booze, drugs and women. I spend it on home theater and gaming consoles. Its fun to spend money on brand new gear. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. I've dumped more money than I can remember on thoroughly useless gear. I remember buying a computer way back when, that cost me over $2000, the pos broke down, it wasn't worth repairing, and I wound up tossing the entire thing into a dumpster. So, dropping 5 bills on a 360 is going to make me break a sweat? I don't think so. A rip off console? This will be by far the best piece of console gaming hardware that's been released when it debuts in november. If this is a ripoff, then every console I've bought to date at launch was an even bigger ripoff.

I can see myself buying 5 games for the 360, maybe more before the end of the year, that's far more than I have for any other launch. I bought 4 for the DC launch, 4 for the ps2 launch. So, all you old biddies can cluck, cluck, cluck away, I'll be going next gen this november and glad of it. This current gen has been dragging on for six long years, it started with the DC and I am sick of seeing jaggies, low res textures, non-existent AI, piss poor animation, and the same game engines used over and over again. Even if I wasn't going 360, I'd be begging off this gen, just can't take playing on old retrograde hardware any longer. I'm tiref of playing on systems where the technology is a limiting factor on the games. Time to move on.


For starters a sound card is not something that normally has to be upgraded unless its integrated. With essential upgrades you could upgrade a PC to play anything for less then $600.Ram,mobo,cpu and graphics card.Not only that PC games drop lower in price way faster then console games do.Heck here i still see Halo 2 going for 49.99 when if it was a pc game it would more then likely be 19.99 by now.Plus fact of the matter is you get way more for your buck with so many mods for almost all PC games.Ive played NWN for over 2 years now because the mods keep it interesting and im sorry but no console game in history has ever kept me playing for more then a few weeks or so. playing with buddies is fun and all but i hate split screen,unless of course you want to go out and spend a few hundred on another tv and buy a link package.You make an argument about sound when you can just hook your PC up to a stero. that makes no sense that you would even say that.I could then say why would i want to look at crappy Xbox graphics when i can look at 1600x1200 res on my computer??

Why would i want an Xbox when ill be done with an average game in less then a week??why would i want an Xbox with so few downloadable content when many pc games offer thousands?? PC gaming isnt anymore expensive then console gaming in the long run.Plus honestly seems a trend in console gaming latley they put way to much emphasis on graphics over game depth with the PC we get both.The better the graphics on a console usually means the shorter the game.

[joquito]

For starters a sound card is not something that normally has to be upgraded unless its integrated. With essential upgrades you could upgrade a PC to play anything for less then $600.Ram,mobo,cpu and graphics card.Not only that PC games drop lower in price way faster then console games do.Heck here i still see Halo 2 going for 49.99 when if it was a pc game it would more then likely be 19.99 by now.Plus fact of the matter is you get way more for your buck with so many mods for almost all PC games.Ive played NWN for over 2 years now because the mods keep it interesting and im sorry but no console game in history has ever kept me playing for more then a few weeks or so. playing with buddies is fun and all but i hate split screen,unless of course you want to go out and spend a few hundred on another tv and buy a link package.You make an argument about sound when you can just hook your PC up to a stero. that makes no sense that you would even say that.I could then say why would i want to look at crappy Xbox graphics when i can look at 1600x1200 res on my computer??

Why would i want an Xbox when ill be done with an average game in less then a week??why would i want an Xbox with so few downloadable content when many pc games offer thousands?? PC gaming isnt anymore expensive then console gaming in the long run.Plus honestly seems a trend in console gaming latley they put way to much emphasis on graphics over game depth with the PC we get both.The better the graphics on a console usually means the shorter the game.

First off, you are correct in that one could build an OK gaming PC for about $600. The integrated sound card works fine if there is a S/PDIF output. Nonetheless, the convience factor is incredibly low. I lived in a studio apartment for a while and had my PC connected to my Home Theater setup. I played PC games and console games on the same HDTV. I used a wireless mouse and keyboard and could play from the couch. PC Games definitely looked better than my Xbox games but the positive comments stop there. PCs are single player gaming systems unless you play online. How long does it take to play a new game for the Xbox, about as long is it takes to unwrap it. Not so with PC games, Whats the quickest time recorded for installing Half-Life 2? Compatibility issues are never a problem with Xbox games, yet they still plague PC games. Too many hoops to jump through for me to call any PC a gaming machine, and I am a big proponent for PC gaming.

[mandark]

Don't like gaming on a pc, end of story.
That was a very well thought out rebuttal. Actually I am in awe of your logic. How can I have ever doubted you? You are the greatest and be put on a pedestal with a plaque that reads "Here stood the greatest debater of all time. With one sentence he is capable of refutting anything you said."

BTW the reply wasnt for you. Its obviously for DTM whom I'm still waiting fa reply from.

[Mochan]

Why would I want to listen to a game off even a high end 5.1 pc gaming sound setup, when I have a killer sound system down in the living room that would destroy it.

You can hook up that same killer sound system to your PC.

Maybe you do, but millions of console gamers don't give a rat's ass about gaming on their pc.

Many PC gamers don't give a rat's ass about your console.

I could justify a 360 purchase just on next gen sports titles alone. You can't even quantify things like visceral impact that will be part of next gen. In madden, for instance, if you own a box seat, you'll be able to locate where your seat is in the game for a given stadium. Madden for the 360 is being kept under tight wrap and I know why.

You're dreaming if you think the PC isn't going to get the same Madden game, only better. Historically speaking, most EA sports games which come out first on consoles, come out later on the PC with far better versions. And for EA Sports games, you literally lose nothing in the translation, and gain everything; even the control scheme is intact only with more options in case playing on keyboards is your thing. And again, you can hook up your PC to your 100" HDTV and 8.1 1000 watt super sound system so you don't lose anything. And hey! You can even play online FOR FREE!!!!

Some EA sports games don't quite make it, like Fight Night, but the Live games, the Madden games, the NHL games, FIFA, they all make it and they are all better on the PC.

Well maybe you lose on the convenience. I have to agree with that. But I'm not a baby that needs my daddy to hold my hand while gaming so I can manage.

This current gen has been dragging on for six long years, it started with the DC and I am sick of seeing jaggies, low res textures, non-existent AI, piss poor animation, and the same game engines used over and over again. Even if I wasn't going 360, I'd be begging off this gen, just can't take playing on old retrograde hardware any longer. I'm tiref of playing on systems where the technology is a limiting factor on the games. Time to move on.

Too bad, but on the PC we got over those hangups a long time ago. Sorry to say. We've been gaming at 720p resolutions at 4x AA for ages. So happy you can finall