So Basically Obi Wan just kicked his A$$

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

One of the biggest things I wanted to see in Ep 3 was how vader got so messed up. And it comes down to him getting his butt kicked by Obi Wan. Now I guess I see why he late vader kill him without a fight he knew he could kick his ass if he wanted to.

What did you think of the movie?

[ice-t2]

POSSIBLE SPOILERS IN THIS POST!!!!!!

It was alot better than the previous 2 but i think it still sucked. Too much crappy CGI that doesnt even look good. Although the final scenes with obi wan and anakin were very impressive. Ewan was very alec guinness too, which was cool. Everyone else sucked except yoda and the guy that plays the emperor. Also samuel l jackson was cool as ever. He went out in style.

[Glockstar]

How I rank the Star Wars movies:

1. Attack of the Clones
2. The Phantom Menace
3. A New Hope
4. Return of the Jedi
5. Revenge of the Sith
6. The Empire Strikes Back

What do I think of the movie?

In a word: sad.

The movie saddens me. No, not it's direction, or production, or anything like that - but the story, the moral, what it was about and how it went down. I mean dayum, he was such a good kid, you know? And that fight between Obi Wan and Anakin... I was like, geez come on guys, quit it already; give it up!

I've got nothing bad to say about it's direction or production, or the acting, etc, but what I don't like about it was how they developed the plot. And I didn't like the opening (too chaotic!); I didn't like how they killed off Darth Tyrannus so quickly; I didn't like how Darth Sidious dispensed with two of the Jedi Masters so easily (come on... they were just standing there!); I thought Yoda should've kicked Sidious's azz; and I didn't like any of the last 20 minutes (kinda Return of the King-ish wasn't it?).

But I did like General Grievous. He was cool. Basically, any scene that did not involve lightsabers, sucked. And even then...

Lastly, I don't care for the lasting image I have of Darth Vader, now that his picture is complete. I thought he was supposed to be such a badass, such a killer, and such a terror. But now I see that, really, all he was, was just potential... and anger. Greatest movie villain ever? Uh... guess not.

Actually, I think that title would now have to go to Darth Sidious. Don't you?

[trebor]

How I rank the Star Wars movies:

1. Attack of the Clones
2. The Phantom Menace
3. A New Hope
4. Return of the Jedi
5. Revenge of the Sith
6. The Empire Strikes Back


Wow. Just...wow. I know we tend to have differing opinions on things, but...wow. Empire Strikes Back is not only my favorite Star Wars movie, but probably my favorite movie of all time.

In fact, you could almost reverse your order of least to greatest and that would be my greatest to least.

To each their own, though, but still...wow.



...

Lastly, I don't care for the lasting image I have of Darth Vader, now that his picture is complete. I thought he was supposed to be such a badass, such a killer, and such a terror. But now I see that, really, all he was, was just potential... and anger. Greatest movie villain ever? Uh... guess not.

Actually, I think that title would now have to go to Darth Sidious. Don't you?

I think that's the point Lucas was exactly trying to get across - that Darth Vader had massive potential, but ended up being ultimate lackey, or henchmen, of the universe. A sad fate for one who was supposed to be so powerful.

In fact, since Obi did beaterize Anakin to such a degree, Darth Vader didn't end up being the apprentice that Sideous had wanted - which directly leads to Sideous trying to tempt Luke to the dark side in Return of the Jedi and take his father's place at the his side.

Sideous wanted Luke to kill Vader, due to his disappointment in Vader. Which indeed makes Darth Sideous the ultimate villian of the galaxy - which is what he always was, since he was pulling Vader's strings the entire time. Luke was a whole person, not a mechanical monster, who was stronger in the force. Palps schemed to have the most powerful apprentice regardless - which parallels what happens in Revenge of the Sith, replacing the old and weak Count Dooku with the young and powerful Anakin Skywalker.

[Glockstar]

Wow. Just...wow. I know we tend to have differing opinions on things, but...wow. Empire Strikes Back is not only my favorite Star Wars movie, but probably my favorite movie of all time.

In fact, you could almost reverse your order of least to greatest and that would be my greatest to least.

To each their own, though, but still...wow.




I think that's the point Lucas was exactly trying to get across - that Darth Vader had massive potential, but ended up being ultimate lackey, or henchmen, of the universe. A sad fate for one who was supposed to be so powerful.

In fact, since Obi did beaterize Anakin to such a degree, Darth Vader didn't end up being the apprentice that Sideous had wanted - which directly leads to Sideous trying to tempt Luke to the dark side in Return of the Jedi and take his father's place at the his side.

Sideous wanted Luke to kill Vader, due to his disappointment in Vader. Which indeed makes Darth Sideous the ultimate villian of the galaxy - which is what he always was, since he was pulling Vader's strings the entire time. Luke was a whole person, not a mechanical monster, who was stronger in the force. Palps schemed to have the most powerful apprentice regardless - which parallels what happens in Revenge of the Sith, replacing the old and weak Count Dooku with the young and powerful Anakin Skywalker.


Yeah, I know. I might be the only person in the world that likes the new movies (eps.1-3) better than the old (4-6). And you're not the first person I've heard say that they like Empire the best. Which I just don't see; for the life of me I just cannot understand it.

What's kind of funny about my list is that Return of the Jedi was once my Favorite Moive Of All Time. But now I list it behind the first one. Damned Ewoks. Everytime I think of Ewoks beating up Stormtroopers the movie falls another spot on the all-time list.

I like your take on the Sidious/Tyrannus/Vader/Luke thing. But to call Tyrannus "old and weak"? Even if only metaphorically, that just ain't right. Tyrannus was amazing! Old, yes... but stronger than hell.

But I think his whole purpose in the story was just to show how strong and talented Anakin truly was. First you show how strong one guy is, then you show him getting beat. To be best you've got to beat the best, right? Well, Anakin/Vader may not be the ultimate uber-villain, but he did have the uber-resume. All the death, destruction, and Jedi/Sith he killed?* His deeds could easily be miscontrued as powerful and/or villainy, but really, none of his actions were of his own choice. To this regard, Vader was rather powerless.

* That's the one thing about the movie that I found dissapointing. I was hoping that the killing of the Jedi would've been done more personally by Vader himself. I was hoping that we'd see a bunch of one-on-one lightsaber/force duels between Vader and individual Jedi - not some "Order 66" crap. (Although... "crap" is too strong a word; that chapter was done well and I feel it had the desired emotional effect - but it just wasn't what I was looking for.)

Ah well, the General Greivous duel almost made up for it. Uh.. then again, no.

[trebor]

Yeah, I know. I might be the only person in the world that likes the new movies (eps.1-3) better than the old (4-6). And you're not the first person I've heard say that they like Empire the best. Which I just don't see; for the life of me I just cannot understand it.

Well...I think in a lot of ways Empire improves upon what ANH started better then any other Star Wars movie that came after it. It's hard to explain, but starting with Return of the Jedi, the Star Wars movies just have a different feel to them - they are obviously lighter in tone. Empire is dark, ends on a down note and has some of the most impressive acting in the entire series.

Plus there are big whoppers that get dropped in Empire - such as just who is who's daddy and such.


What's kind of funny about my list is that Return of the Jedi was once my Favorite Moive Of All Time. But now I list it behind the first one. Damned Ewoks. Everytime I think of Ewoks beating up Stormtroopers the movie falls another spot on the all-time list.

I'd have to agree with you there. I loved Ewoks when I was a kid, but now not so much - especially after I found out that Lucas originally intended them to be Wookies, but went with the softer, teddy bear approach instead.

Still though, I think the Luke/Vader lightsabre battle is probably the most emotional and intense out of all six movies. Powerful stuff there. Plus, it's also technically the first time we really saw the Emporer and just how big of an arsehole he really is.


I like your take on the Sidious/Tyrannus/Vader/Luke thing. But to call Tyrannus "old and weak"? Even if only metaphorically, that just ain't right. Tyrannus was amazing! Old, yes... but stronger than hell.

But I think his whole purpose in the story was just to show how strong and talented Anakin truly was. First you show how strong one guy is, then you show him getting beat. To be best you've got to beat the best, right? Well, Anakin/Vader may not be the ultimate uber-villain, but he did have the uber-resume. All the death, destruction, and Jedi/Sith he killed?* His deeds could easily be miscontrued as powerful and/or villainy, but really, none of his actions were of his own choice. To this regard, Vader was rather powerless.

Well, obviously Dooku wasn't "weak" in the literal sense - in fact he was incredibly powerful (you'd have to be to beat Obi/Anakin AND Yoda in a short period of time), but I think in the eyes of Sideous he was weak compared to Anakin, or more specifically Anakin's potential. So yeah, I think showing how strong and talented Anakin truly was is EXACTLY what Lucas was going for.

When he does fall to the darkside, and gets soundly beaten by Obi, Anakin become that much more a tragic figure - he essentially becomes a henchman and doesn't even live up to the potential he had in the first place. His greed and ambition leads to his downfall.


* That's the one thing about the movie that I found dissapointing. I was hoping that the killing of the Jedi would've been done more personally by Vader himself. I was hoping that we'd see a bunch of one-on-one lightsaber/force duels between Vader and individual Jedi - not some "Order 66" crap. (Although... "crap" is too strong a word; that chapter was done well and I feel it had the desired emotional effect - but it just wasn't what I was looking for.)

Ah well, the General Greivous duel almost made up for it. Uh.. then again, no.

I definitely agree with you there - and I bet most die-hard SW geeks would too. Seeing Vader in all his mechanical glory whupping Jedi ass is what I was hoping for.

I have to say though, I think the Sideous/Mace Windu fight was the most intense part of the movie...and downright disturbing too. There are so many parallels between Mace wanting to off Sideous and the conflict Anakin had when deciding to off Dooku or not...it adds a lot of complexity to his situation.

[Glockstar]

All this talk about Star Wars... made me go out and buy the Original Trilogy Box Set.

So I watched Empire this past weekend. It's interesting to watch now, especially now, knowing all that we now know. The one scene with the Emperor particularily. (I used to hate that scene too; didn't like the idea of Vader bowing down to anybody.) I still think the movie is mostly "meh", but it does have some great stuff. Like lot's of great Vader images, lots of great quotes, and great theology.

Okay... I'm revising my list. Switch Empire with Return of the Jedi. (I told you I can't those Ewoks - not even the thought of them.) Still, I only really like the bad guys scenes though.

I didn't know this before... Empire wasn't directed by George Lucas - it was directed by Irvin Kirshner.

You think the Luke/Vader lightsaber duel was more emotional and intense than the Obi Wan/Anakin duel of the latest movie, Trebor? Not me. No way. Don't get me wrong, I love the Ep.V duel (I love how Vader basically toyed with Luke the whole time; started out fighting with just one hand, then ratcheting up the intensity as Luke's resiliency dragged the fight on, and then ultimately getting mad) but I actually found myself getting emotional during the Ep.III duel - and I came close to crying out loud, 'For Gods sake, stop guys!'. Anakin was so frickin' pissed off...

With regards to the letdown of how they killed of the Jedi: I didn't necessarily want to see the Darth Vader of Episodes IV thru VI, but I was hoping that we'd see Anakin becoming that mechanical man thru various one-on-one lightsaber/force duels. The fact that he got destroyed all at once - and all at the hands of one man - is still something that I'm having a hard time getting used to. Of course, as it is, it's a thing that makes you go, 'Hmmm...'. Ah well, guess my idea for the movie was way different than George's. Now I just have to get over it. And, of course, see it again. ;)

[trebor]

All this talk about Star Wars... made me go out and buy the Original Trilogy Box Set.

Score another one for George Lucas. ;)


So I watched Empire this past weekend. It's interesting to watch now, especially now, knowing all that we now know. The one scene with the Emperor particularily. (I used to hate that scene too; didn't like the idea of Vader bowing down to anybody.) I still think the movie is mostly "meh", but it does have some great stuff. Like lot's of great Vader images, lots of great quotes, and great theology.

Okay... I'm revising my list. Switch Empire with Return of the Jedi. (I told you I can't those Ewoks - not even the thought of them.) Still, I only really like the bad guys scenes though.

Don't forget Jedi has Princess Leia in a metal bikini, so that automatically makes it a better movie.


I didn't know this before... Empire wasn't directed by George Lucas - it was directed by Irvin Kirshner.

Yup and Return of the Jedi was directed by Richard Marquand.


You think the Luke/Vader lightsaber duel was more emotional and intense than the Obi Wan/Anakin duel of the latest movie, Trebor? Not me. No way. Don't get me wrong, I love the Ep.V duel (I love how Vader basically toyed with Luke the whole time; started out fighting with just one hand, then ratcheting up the intensity as Luke's resiliency dragged the fight on, and then ultimately getting mad) but I actually found myself getting emotional during the Ep.III duel - and I came close to crying out loud, 'For Gods sake, stop guys!'. Anakin was so frickin' pissed off...

Yeah, I totally think the Jedi duel between Luke and Vader was more emotional and intense then the duel between Obi and Anakin. Not to say that the Obi/Anakin duel wasn't cool, though. It was certainly quite spectacular.

Revenge of the Sith even helps to deepen the intensity in the Luke/Vader duel. Think of the parallels between Luke fighting Vader and Anakin fighting Dooku. In both situations Palpatine is sitting there, manipulating the situation, knowing that whatever the outcome is that he'll have the most powerful apprentice. He subtlely influences both Luke and Anakin to skirt the edge of using the dark side. He desires the younger and more powerful combatent to kill the older, desiring the younger to take the place of the older.

Plus, actually, the Obi and Anakin duel also parallel the Luke and Vader fight - friend vs friend and father vs son. In both situations you have these dudes fighting each other who really shouldn't be fighting each other all at the behest of the most evil dude in the galaxy.

I DO think that there is some really poigniant dialogue that gives a whole new dimension to the older trilogy. For instance, at one point Obi Wan says "I failed you Anakin" , well, when you consider that every time Vader says "Obi Wan's failure is complete" in the old trilogy, it gives it a different meaning. Maybe it's not Obi Wan's failure in hiding Anakin's children, but his failure to Anakin himself for allowing his children to become known to the Sith, and therefore at risk.

Plus, the entire old trilogy is leading up to the Luke/Vader duel, so it's a pretty important battle.


With regards to the letdown of how they killed of the Jedi: I didn't necessarily want to see the Darth Vader of Episodes IV thru VI, but I was hoping that we'd see Anakin becoming that mechanical man thru various one-on-one lightsaber/force duels. The fact that he got destroyed all at once - and all at the hands of one man - is still something that I'm having a hard time getting used to. Of course, as it is, it's a thing that makes you go, 'Hmmm...'. Ah well, guess my idea for the movie was way different than George's. Now I just have to get over it. And, of course, see it again. ;)

Well, I always knew that Obi Wan is the one who really effed up Vader. It has more impact that way, especially when you consider Anakin's arrogance in AotC and how he thinks he is the superior Jedi in terms of power and skill. It's the same arrogance that leads Anakin to believe he can beat Obi despite Obi clearly having the upper hand.

"You underestimate my power!!!" - Anakin

"It's time to school you, son." - Obi-wan

Plus it adds that much more to their duel in A New Hope - there is a whole new context to their dialogue.

[Aku]

All this talk about Star Wars... made me go out and buy the Original Trilogy Box Set.

Just got the trilogy myself for my birthday. Watched Empire Strikes Back tonight, and will watch Return of the Jedi tomorrow (haven't seen that one in years, so it will be pretty fresh). I liked Empire Strikes Back more watching it this time around than the last imte I saw it. Lots of great scenes, and it had good pacing. Then I think I'll rent Eps 1 and 2 and then go see Ep 3, which I haven't done yet.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

My favorite seen during the whole Starwars saga is the opening scene to return of the Jedi. I personally never really disliked the Ewoks, But I also didn't know they were supposed to be wookies knowing that puts it in a different light.

About Anakin I was first upset that Obi-wan just beat him down like that. But after seeing the movie again and rewatching the old ones I love it now. Anakin is and always has been a tragic figure. But the lesson that arrogance can destroy you despite your power is a theme that resonates especially in today's political climate. It was also there in the first triliogy looking at the powerful empire letting there Star destroyer get blown up!

I also liked how Lucas tried to blur the lines. Because Palpatine was absolutely right the Jedi did want to displace him and take over the senate. And for what? They didn't want to be led by a sith That's like saying it's okay for Michael Moore to kill George Bush to save us from conservatism! And when Anakin told Obi Wan at the end that "From where I stand you are the evil one" that made the movie for me. Because we can say what we want but legally in the movie the Jedi were the outlaws sure they may have been morally right but they were legally wrong. They were traitors (all this takes into account that it couldn't be proven that Palpatine was behind the separtist movement).

Also I think the Jedi failed Anakin they should have know he was upset (they couldn't feel it through the force) It also had shades of the Terri Schiavo case is it wrong to use the force in such a way to save a loved one. I think it would've been more powerful if Anakin had came clean about Padme and the council then rejected him and that led him into the arms of the Darkside.

Overall loved the movie didn't think the second trilogy was as bad as it's made out to be. The actors however don't hold a candle to the original cast.

[Glockstar]

Just got the trilogy myself for my birthday. Watched Empire Strikes Back tonight, and will watch Return of the Jedi tomorrow (haven't seen that one in years, so it will be pretty fresh). I liked Empire Strikes Back more watching it this time around than the last imte I saw it. Lots of great scenes, and it had good pacing. Then I think I'll rent Eps 1 and 2 and then go see Ep 3, which I haven't done yet.

Hey, you haven't been reading our posts have you? If so, sorry. We haven't been putting in any spoiler alerts at all. We just assumed that anybody wanting to join in would have seen the movie already. Oops.

That said... ;)

I don't think the Jedi failed Anakin in the least, in Revenge, DT. What they asked him to do was stay strong and "keep the faith". Anakin wasn't a boy anymore, this was something that he had to go thru and get over all on his own. Every religious person gets tested at one time or another. You know, he's the one who allowed himself attachments - none of the rest of the Jedi were afforded these things. They can't. And here we see why.

Where the Jedi failed Anakin was in Phantom. Not doing anything with his mother's freedom and seperating them at such a time was... careless. It was insensitive. And it was totally lacking in foresight. That bothered me from day one. You just knew that was going to have grave consequences down the road.

This reminds me of the curiousities I have about the Jedi with regard to youth. Especially now, that I've just watched Empire again. In Empire, Yoda says Luke is "too old". I didn't like that even back in 1980 - I was like, 'What?! He's the perfect age, isn't he? How young do they want him... an uneducated and uncoordinated 12?'. But then came the shocker in Phantom when the Jedi Council said Anakin was too old! He's like all of 8, but he's "too old"! Of course later, in Attack, we see the younglings and see that when the Jedi say they want them young they mean young.

That says something about Luke and how force-powerful he really is, doesn't it? Especially considering how well he did against Vader in Return.

Which btw, I just realized that that's the Luke/Vader duel you were talking about trebor - not the Empire duel. Oops. :o

And then again, that fight with Vader in front of the Emporer really says something about Luke's character. Of which, I'd say Luke has more of than all the Jedi and Sith combined. Even Yoda... who was 800 years old! Now how does that happen? (<--- That's a rhetorical question - I know the answer.)

[DBS]

As the book stated Obi was the modest one but when you look at him and his discipline he was the best saberist of all the jedi. Mace created his own style to hide his weakness....but all agreed Obi Wan was the perfect saberist and it all makes sense in the book. Old school training vs emotion and raw talent....in the end it was the master who calmly and effieciently won the battle.

[DBS]

I do agree also that that by not working to free Anakin's mother ..her death planted the seed that grew to hatred later for the Jedi. His passion turned sour his love turned evil and he became hate itself.

[Jupiter_x]

I'd have to agree with you there. I loved Ewoks when I was a kid, but now not so much - especially after I found out that Lucas originally intended them to be Wookies, but went with the softer, teddy bear approach instead.


Here is something to think about...a play on words, I guess!

Take the words "Wookie" and "Ewok", Notice any similarities?

Take the word Ewok and move the "E" to the end and say it. "Wok-E"
Sounds like Wookie doesn't it?.....just add another "O" to that word, "Wook-E"! :D

[Gadfly2317]

Where the Jedi failed Anakin was in Phantom. Not doing anything with his mother's freedom and seperating them at such a time was... careless. It was insensitive. And it was totally lacking in foresight. That bothered me from day one. You just knew that was going to have grave consequences down the road.
.)

I don't think it was a failure of the Jedi, it was a failure of George Lucas and a crappy script.

I had thought (or hoped) the dramatic material of the third one, with Anakin's metapmorphosis into Darth Vader would be such naturally strong material that even the increasingly incompetent Lucas couldn't screw it up.

I was so dissapointed by the third one, thought it was so bad, so hokey, such terrible lines and bad acting and gaping inconsisitencys and holes in the logic and ridiculously unvbelieviable character motivations that I don't even feel like going into detail. It didn't inspire me enough to bother. It just sucked. Bad. So bad it made Jar Jar suddenly seem half way decent by comparison.

[trebor]

I don't think the Jedi failed Anakin in the least, in Revenge, DT. What they asked him to do was stay strong and "keep the faith". Anakin wasn't a boy anymore, this was something that he had to go thru and get over all on his own. Every religious person gets tested at one time or another. You know, he's the one who allowed himself attachments - none of the rest of the Jedi were afforded these things. They can't. And here we see why.

Yup. Also, Anakin had a nasty tendency to blame everyone but himself for everything that was going wrong with him - very much how a lot of American society acts, blaming everything but themselves for their own problems.


Where the Jedi failed Anakin was in Phantom. Not doing anything with his mother's freedom and seperating them at such a time was... careless. It was insensitive. And it was totally lacking in foresight. That bothered me from day one. You just knew that was going to have grave consequences down the road.

The problem with that is, 1) Qui-gon didn't really have the option at the moment to save the mother, and 2) Anakin was already too old to begin training (I'll explain in the next paragraph).


This reminds me of the curiousities I have about the Jedi with regard to youth. Especially now, that I've just watched Empire again. In Empire, Yoda says Luke is "too old". I didn't like that even back in 1980 - I was like, 'What?! He's the perfect age, isn't he? How young do they want him... an uneducated and uncoordinated 12?'. But then came the shocker in Phantom when the Jedi Council said Anakin was too old! He's like all of 8, but he's "too old"! Of course later, in Attack, we see the younglings and see that when the Jedi say they want them young they mean young.

The reason why the Jedi Order requires the padawans to start at such a incredibly young age is so they don't get attached to their parents - which you see in Anakin's place how that can be a problem. In AotC, Anakin expressly states that attachment is forbidden while he's chatting with Padme on their way to Naboo.

The way I see it, the Jedi Order essentially "adopts" force-powerful children into their order when they are infants and toddlers. If you think about adoption in the real sense, the younger children get adopted, the better they take to the adoption, whereas the older the child gets adopted, the tougher time they have of it.

The whole point is to keep them from getting too attached to their parents - which leads to fear of loss, which leads to suffering, which leads to yadda yadda yadda.


That says something about Luke and how force-powerful he really is, doesn't it? Especially considering how well he did against Vader in Return.

Which btw, I just realized that that's the Luke/Vader duel you were talking about trebor - not the Empire duel. Oops. :o

Luke's the bomb. And yup, that's the Luke/Vader duel I was referring to. :)


And then again, that fight with Vader in front of the Emporer really says something about Luke's character. Of which, I'd say Luke has more of than all the Jedi and Sith combined. Even Yoda... who was 800 years old! Now how does that happen? (<--- That's a rhetorical question - I know the answer.)

Luke essentially is the one who brings balance to the force - by helping Vader realize that he has love for his child, and therefore must destroy the Emporer. Which, incidentally, proves the rigid doctrines of the Jedi were wrong all along, because without love and family, the Emporer would have never been beaten.

So, in a sense, Anakin does "bring balance to the force" because he fathered the actual person who does it.

[trebor]

I don't think it was a failure of the Jedi, it was a failure of George Lucas and a crappy script.

I had thought (or hoped) the dramatic material of the third one, with Anakin's metapmorphosis into Darth Vader would be such naturally strong material that even the increasingly incompetent Lucas couldn't screw it up.

I was so dissapointed by the third one, thought it was so bad, so hokey, such terrible lines and bad acting and gaping inconsisitencys and holes in the logic and ridiculously unvbelieviable character motivations that I don't even feel like going into detail. It didn't inspire me enough to bother. It just sucked. Bad. So bad it made Jar Jar suddenly seem half way decent by comparison.

It wasn't perfect, but wow.

[Brendon]

Um - I should point out that if anything, Anakin did bring balance to the force in ROTS, think about it, Previous to the events of the empireal takeover, There were hundreds and hundreds of Jedi and about three sith, not really a balance - and at the end there are two sith, two Jedi and two potentials.

As for the movie, Lucas has picked up some terrible habits from Sam Rami as the camera in the opening is more in the epileptic style of Spiderman than the long, sweeping shots that had characterised Star Wars's space battles to that point. Also, if you're born and bred to do ham, don't try to do emotion or deep character. At least those aspects of the film could have been handed off to someone else.

PS: While Return of the Jedi is not as high in my esteem as it once was, the battle of Endor still sits as the prime example of how to do a prolonged action sequence, even though it was the film that defined those rules in the first place. For that, it at least deserves respect.

[trebor]

Um - I should point out that if anything, Anakin did bring balance to the force in ROTS, think about it, Previous to the events of the empireal takeover, There were hundreds and hundreds of Jedi and about three sith, not really a balance - and at the end there are two sith, two Jedi and two potentials.

I think you're taking that "bringing balance to the force" concept too literally.

Especially considering what Anakin does in ROTS directly leads to the galaxy being controlled by a evil sith lord, who spreads fear and darkness across all civilizations. That's not exactly what I'd call "balance". It's not so much a numbers thing, when you consider that Darth Sideous can easily wipe out multiple Jedi's in one fight.

Whereas in RotJ, Luke is the last standing force wielder of the galaxy, free to pass on the knowledge he has without adhering to the rigid, dogmatic principles held up by the older Jedi order, which proved to be false. That's what I'd call balance.