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View Full Version : XBOX 360 Games. Next Gen Or NOT?


ThaMaskedGamer
05-15-2005, 01:23 PM
A lot of people are speculating these games could have been made on the XBOX, and that they were stolen from XBOX. Now, of course, many people who are saying this are the usual MS haters many of whom do not even have XBOX. But, let's look at these games and see if they really can or can not be done on XBOX, ie, are they truly next gen. Let's start with the game drawing the most controversy, RARE's PD:0. Now, instead of pulling comments out my rectum, like others, I will post real data about the games straight from the developers.


Perfect Dark0:
This game will feature the ability to host up to 64 players online. I think that alone tells you this game is not an XBOX game. Now the graphics look like a really really late generation XBOX game, so far. But remember, these games were running on code not based on final hardware.

<b>Duncan Botwood (Rare): "When you're working on a new platform, you have extra challenges. As I like to say, the ground beneath you is moving like jello, because you never know what's working and what's not. These guys have done a lot of great work - right now we're working on these kits here, which are called alpha kits. So the alpha kit hardware allows us to keep going and get a lot of the game done, but it's not the final hardware...there are going to be differences between what we're running on now and what we get with beta hardware, and what we get with final hardware."</b> Now, that is straight from RARE.

In addition, it must be said. This game will allow you to play the story online cooperatively, in addition to this, real people can play the enemy in story online. This has not been done before ANYWHERE! The game to my eyes features huge environs, jet packs, 64 players, it was built for scale, not for graphics. But it still looks better than anything on XBOX right now, and remember it will be in 720p 60 fps. This game has 6 months to go, I remember people freaking out about the Forza demo. So categorically this game can not be done on XBOX, and judging it now based on alpha code is just unfair.


Ghost Recon 3
I don't know much about this game, in terms of how many people will be able to play online etc., but if you download the video of the game, it is damn impressive. It looks better than reality, it looks too good. Soldiers are walking down the street and a building explodes in fantastic detail, you can see a soldier get knocked down by the blast and the animation is too real. Then it cuts to a gun fight against opfor. Well, I've played just about every military shooter on XBOX. And there is nothing that looks remotely close, not even on the PC. This game is freakin gorgeous, and i'm sure it will feature those graphics plus about at least 12 people online. That will be an incredible feat. Plus we don't know anything about the game in terms of innovation. Oh and did I mention it was created on alpha kits.


<b>Robbie Edwards (Ubisoft): Microsoft has always been very supportive with developers. They offer us access to technical and creative experts during production that help us improve performance, improve usability and make the game an overall better experience. With GR3, we were able to have our technology up and running on both the Xbox 360 and PC within a few weeks. This allows for rapid development as developers are able to prototype content on their PCs before finally unveiling it on the Xbox 360. While I do not have a great amount of experience with the other platforms, I cannot imagine a level of support on any other platform that equals or surpasses the support we received working on the Xbox and now while working on the Xbox 360.</b>


MORROWIND
Well I haven't seen any video of this game yet. But I remember months ago the feature in Game Informer. The pictures were incredible and the scale was humongous, this game is absolutely next gen, and probably will be one of the more incredible looking games. The pictures were months ago, imagine what they have now, and what the final game will look like. Again, we don't even know the full features of the game. But thus far, everyone is just judging on graphics, will JUDGE THIS GAME then. I suggest everyone dig up that G.I. issue.

KAMEO
Ok how about this game. A lot of were correct, this was supposed to be an XBOX game, but for those believing the game has not changed since its been moved, well wrong, its basically a completely different game according to RARE, and certainly not possible in the wildest dreams of running on XBOX.

<b>Rare's fantasy action-adventure Kameo is finally coming to life as an Xbox 360 launch project, on a scale far bigger than originally imagined. The one-on-one monster battles envisioned for its GameCube incarnation are now massive melees with more than 2,000 creatures on-screen, each driven by its own individual AI. Meanwhile, Rare may not be the only former Nintendo partisan finding a new home at Microsoft...but we won't be able to talk about this until E3 properly kicks off next week.</b> Now, there you have it. At first the game was going to be one on one monster battles, now it will be 2000 creatures on the screen. If that isn't next generation, I don't know what is. Also, it was said on another site, even though they increased dramatically the number of monsters on screen, the graphics increased 10 fold over the XBOX graphics.


Now, this doesn't even cover Condemned, Gears of WAR, PGR3, and others. I watched video for all of them, except PGR3. These games look great, in GEARS of WAR, you had a giant monster ripping through a city attacking a squad of soldiers. I don't know if that in game footage or not. I hope so cause it looked incredible, if anyone thinks this can be done on current generation systems your XBOX must be a hell of lot more powerful than the two I have. And, once again, all these games are running on Alpha hardware, 6 months from release.

I'll post this little tidbit for those of you thinking PS3 might be capable of doing significantly better:

<b>Robbie Edwards (Ubisoft): The Xbox 360 is much more powerful than any entertainment component available to consumers right now. It's more powerful than the most powerful PCs, and the current generation consoles simply do not compare. Based on processing power alone, the Xbox 360 is the equivalent of 14 Xboxes.

Dave Hasle (Monolith): The CPU is about 5 times faster, and there are 3 of them, each with a dedicated custom vector unit and two simultaneous threads. There's 8 times as much memory with 3.5 times the bandwidth. We get significantly more capability than exists on either current gen consoles or home PCs, but it will take some care and feeding to nurse that power out. The GPU has 12 times as many shader pipes, each with so much flexibility they're not even really comparable to the previous hardware. With multiple shader pipes, we can do a vast number of overlays and effects in a scene as to, again, border on photo-realistic. Yes, it's really a generational leap.

...You'll often hear developers complaining about alpha and beta development kits, which are usually significantly different from the final hardware in a number of ways. With Xbox 360, for example, the current development kids are running on only two CPU cores, while the final hardware makes use of three, and the graphics chip is an off-the-shell ATI card, whereas the finished hardware contains a custom GPU.

Robbie Edwards (Ubisoft): If the PS3 and Nintendo consoles are released within the next year or so, then I seriously doubt the Xbox 360 will be viewed as the weaker console. Additionally, with the Xbox 360 releasing sooner, it will gain the advantage that the PS2 gained over the Xbox by allowing the developers more time to become accustomed to working with the console. We're also talking about a level of power here that's almost unimaginable so while the later consoles may technically have more power, it would be very difficult to be able to notice this power difference (unlike today's PS2 and Xbox comparisons).

Why so many people? Because the creation of a platform that strikes balance between hardware, software, and services is not an easy task. If wrong decisions are made, you could end up with a design that has pure processing power only at a CPU level cough*PlayStation 2*cough* Cell *cough*, or a console that has an excellent graphics chip but its CPU is inefficient. </b>

That's all folks. You can find the original articles in full at 1up, IGN, TEAMXBOX, GAMESPOT, these articles are not hard to find. But, I know its so much easier to try and slam the system and spread lies.

shogun
05-15-2005, 03:23 PM
the fact this argument even needs to be made at all is kind of sad. XBox 360 is certainly capable of doing more (graphically) than current systems, but, with the exception of Morrowind and GR3 it's NOT showing up in these games.
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Paying $400 just so you can have more people online, and more crap onsceeen? Reminds me of the Kessen debates when PS2 launched. "Yeah, sure the graphics don't look so hot, BUT LOOK AT ALL THOSE HORSES!!" The fact that PDZero can host so many players is um, great and all, but at a certain point is becomes a question of if the game is truly improved or more fun to play because of it. Of course, in absence of innovation you gotta do SOMETHING to make people part with their money right? Should I even point out the horrid sequal-itis you XBoxers used to be so adamantly opposed to?

And besides, a lot of us XBox gamers now feel the Sega-like burn of having been shat-upon by MS pulling rank on us early. I didn't expect to only have one holiday season with my XBox and I'm certainly not rewarding them with more money because of it. This has so many parallels to the Saturn and Dreamcasts launches it's nuts. A company bleeding money? check. Likes to ditch hardware early? check. Games far beneath the capacity of the hardware due to a rushed launch? check.

A dire future for a once-promising console maker? check.


Get mad about "spreading lies" all you want. Most of us have seen what the XBox 360 is set to deliver launch day, and most of us are unimpressed. Deal.

ilnadmy
05-15-2005, 03:34 PM
Whoah whoah whoah. You can't say that, "just because PD0 has 64 players online, this means it's next-gen." PD0 has 64 players online BECAUSE it's next-gen. Ghost Recon 3 looks that good BECAUSE it's next-gen.

All those games could have been made on the Xbox. They weren't. They are made for the Xbox 360. This means they will have more features. Period. That is it. As far as I can see, there is no real argument in this issue.

theWacoKid
05-15-2005, 03:48 PM
the fact this argument even needs to be made at all is kind of sad. XBox 360 is certainly capable of doing more (graphically) than current systems, but, with the exception of Morrowind and GR3 it's NOT showing up in these games.
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Paying $400 just so you can have more people online, and more crap onsceeen? Reminds me of the Kessen debates when PS2 launched. "Yeah, sure the graphics don't look so hot, BUT LOOK AT ALL THOSE HORSES!!" The fact that PDZero can host so many players is um, great and all, but at a certain point is becomes a question of if the game is truly improved or more fun to play because of it. Of course, in absence of innovation you gotta do SOMETHING to make people part with their money right? Should I even point out the horrid sequal-itis you XBoxers used to be so adamantly opposed to?

And besides, a lot of us XBox gamers now feel the Sega-like burn of having been shat-upon by MS pulling rank on us early. I didn't expect to only have one holiday season with my XBox and I'm certainly not rewarding them with more money because of it. This has so many parallels to the Saturn and Dreamcasts launches it's nuts. A company bleeding money? check. Likes to ditch hardware early? check. Games far beneath the capacity of the hardware due to a rushed launch? check.

A dire future for a once-promising console maker? check.


Get mad about "spreading lies" all you want. Most of us have seen what the XBox 360 is set to deliver launch day, and most of us are unimpressed. Deal.

Another satisfied xbox owner speaks out. As a sega saturn owner and dreamcast owner both, I can tell you Sega's basic abandonment of the saturn really burned me. With the DC, I at least had the pleasure of dumping them before they dumped me and so I got decent money for my DC. Sega and hardware? Forget it, not a chance and I loved sega.

The xbox situation is more complicated. Basically, MS screwed up with the xbox, rushed it out there without too much thought, just to be in the game. MS was more concerned about establishing xbox live than the console itself. At least, your xbox live subscription allows you to play on 360.

I'm suprised by the dumping of the xbox hardware and not suprised. The xbox hardware is still a money pit for MS. And they'll be losing money on 360 to start with. Two hardware money pits for any company is too much, even MS. And b/c is not in the cards for 360. Sorry, it just isn't. Blame MS and their lack of foresight and their crap relations with Nvidia. Man, when you have to go to arbitration hearings to resolve disputes, you know there were problems between the two parties.

Mochan
05-15-2005, 06:10 PM
MORROWIND

Whoa, hold on there! Morrowind is by no means a next gen game. It's a freaking 2002 game for crying out loud. Be sure to call it Oblivion or Elder Scrolls 4 to avoid confusion.

Almost everything else though is probably next gen. Except maybe Perfect Dark, which looks like it should have been released on the XBox instead.

Jupiter_x
05-15-2005, 07:42 PM
I can tell you Sega's basic abandonment of the saturn really burned me.


You know what burns me? When a bigwig from a company, Director of a major movie sequel or a band member saying that their previous effort was flawed/rushed but their next effort will be better this time! :mad:


J. Allard had this to say recently about the original Xbox, while discussing all the big improvements on Xbox 360:

"When we created the Xbox, we took a frenetic approach," the thin, bald executive explained. "Within a 19-month process, we built our first system. We made our fair share of mistakes. With Xbox 1, our seams showed: The dashboard was troublesome, it made toilet bowl sounds, and the green start up glob was never used outside of that context. The controller was too big, and the system was even bigger.

"I like to refer to the first Xbox process as a painting!

"Indeed, Allard admits there were mistakes made with the first Xbox. "We didn't get the controller right," he said. "The Live experience wasn't that seamless in the dashboard. We didn't future-proof it enough. I would say we had a lot of seams that showed."


Oh really? NOW, he says Xbox has its "Fair Share" of Mistakes!


What ever happened to the: "XBOX EXPERIENCE"?????

Weren't they pimping that dashboard like it was the best thing since sliced bread upon Xbox's release? I remember it all to clearly, all the tripe and utter nonsense M$ with their flashy brochers, Magazine articals,Press confrences, Web articals, as well as that biased "OXM" Xbox magazine said in regards to all the really cool, unique and innovative the Xbox and its dashboard was? All the cool visuals including the "Green Glob" all the neat little robotic voices and sounds the Xbox dashboard made and how easy it was to use and hook up to LIVE! "The XBOX EXPERIENCE!" :o

GIVE ME A FREAKIN' BREAK! :rolleyes:


They are knocking their own System to make way for this new one? :confused:

theWacoKid
05-15-2005, 08:00 PM
You know what burns me? When a bigwig from a company, Director of a major movie sequel or a band member saying that their previous effort was flawed/rushed but their next effort will be better this time! :mad:


J. Allard had this to say recently about the original Xbox, while discussing all the big improvements on Xbox 360:

"When we created the Xbox, we took a frenetic approach," the thin, bald executive explained. "Within a 19-month process, we built our first system. We made our fair share of mistakes. With Xbox 1, our seams showed: The dashboard was troublesome, it made toilet bowl sounds, and the green start up glob was never used outside of that context. The controller was too big, and the system was even bigger.

"I like to refer to the first Xbox process as a painting!

"Indeed, Allard admits there were mistakes made with the first Xbox. "We didn't get the controller right," he said. "The Live experience wasn't that seamless in the dashboard. We didn't future-proof it enough. I would say we had a lot of seams that showed."


Oh really? NOW, he says Xbox has its "Fair Share" of Mistakes!

What ever happened to the: "XBOX EXPERIENCE"?????

Weren't they pimping that dashboard like it was the best thing since sliced bread upon Xbox's release? I remember it all to clearly, all the tripe and utter nonsense M$ with their flashy brochers, Magazine articals,Press confrences, Web articals, as well as that biased "OXM" Xbox magazine said in regards to all the really cool, unique and innovative the Xbox and its dashboard was? All the cool visuals including the "Green Glob" all the neat little robotic voices and sounds the Xbox dashboard made and how easy it was to use and hook up to LIVE! "The XBOX EXPERIENCE!" :o

GIVE ME A FREAKIN' BREAK! :rolleyes:


They are knocking their own System to make way for this new one? :confused:

You really shouldn't be suprised by any of this. MS wants to put the xbox out of its mind and gamers minds as quickly as possible. The xbox as it turns out was one big long extended beta test for MS. If people think MS is going to be wasting resources supporting the xbox, think again. For MS, the xbox is basically as good as dead. Get conker out and move on. If MS was supporting the xbox, Kameo would've been slated for xbox release, I mean, this this has been a coming soon for xbox game for over 2 years now. Instead, if you want to play Kameo, fork over the big bucks. Personally, I could care less, I had no interest in Kameo at any point in time. The gameplay looks boring like GBTG. At its core, a simple beat em up. All the graphics in the world won't save it. But, for some people, this might be a piss off issue, especially for the few Rare fans still left out there.

Jupiter_x
05-15-2005, 08:12 PM
Hmmmmm! I can see it now!

4 years from now

J. Allard speaks in regards to Xbox 360 successor:

"The new Xbox will officially be called Xbox 420!

This new system will incorperate a new level of intrigue seen on no other system to date. The Xbox 420 will allow 2000 players in a room at one time and they can even use the XBOX LIVE CAM to show just how pissed off they look when they get fragged!
We realize that Xbox 360 was rushed out the door too soon to get lead on Sony only to still be beaten by them...again! Nintendo even kicked 360s butt, Sorry we'll do better this time, I promise, no more retarded Mtv unvielings...this time we will be on the DR. Phill show to unviel 420...it will rock!
There were so many flaws with 360. The system looked like a Compaq Presario and was still not small enough. The Visuals were great all in all, but even I have to admit that the visuals on the release games did not truly deliver that "Next Gen" look and feel!
Xbox 420 will be the pinnicle of gaming, you'll see... trust me!! :p

theWacoKid
05-15-2005, 08:22 PM
Hmmmmm! I can see it now!

4 years from now

J. Allard speaks in regards to Xbox 360 successor:

"The new Xbox will officially be called Xbox 420!

This new system will incorperate a new level of intrigue seen on no other system to date. The Xbox 420 will allow 2000 players in a room at one time and they can even use the XBOX LIVE CAM to show just how pissed off they look when they get fragged!
We realize that Xbox 360 was rushed out the door too soon only to still be beaten by Sony.There were so many flaws with 360. The system looked like a Compaq Presario and was still not small enough. The Visuals were great all in all but even I have to admit that the visuals on the release games did not truly deliver that "Next Gen" look and feel!
Xbox 420 will be the pinnicle of gaming you'll see trust me!!

MS has burnt some currency with gamers whether they realize it or not. They pull another we're ditiching this console to move onto next gen, they're as good as dead. There's some 2 million or so xbox owners from the last six months, who are not going to be impressed at all with the events that will be unfolding and MS is going to have plenty of explaining and damage control to do.

But, I just bought this console, what do you mean, you dont' want to make it anymore or any games for it and I can't take any of the games I bought to play on your new one. Yeah, baby, now, that's customer support the MS way.

Jupiter_x
05-15-2005, 08:32 PM
MS has burnt some currency with gamers whether they realize it or not. They pull another we're ditiching this console to move onto next gen, they're as good as dead. There's some 2 million or so xbox owners from the last six months, who are not going to be impressed at all with the events that will be unfolding and MS is going to have plenty of explaining and damage control to do.

But, I just bought this console, what do you mean, you dont' want to make it anymore or any games for it and I can't take any of the games I bought to play on your new one. Yeah, baby, now, that's customer support the MS way.


I am a brand new Xbox owner myself, I got it as a gift...yet somehow I don't really care that they are ditching it!?! I will box it when I am done and sell it on ebay for big $
I have my PS2 and Cube to keep me into the new titles from this point on....I just grabbed God of War, haven't played it yet!

I am waiting for PS3...I have the $ just waiting for the deposit!

ThaMaskedGamer
05-16-2005, 10:27 AM
Well I've said my piece, I can so some of you have made up your mind based on preconceived notions and hopes the system will be bad. Good thing the press and people who are actually closer to the games, thus far, are greatly optimistic about the system, along with the developers also.

But back to XBOX what J.Allard say is basically they made mistakes in the design of the XBOX. I read another article where he was talking about this. He is not saying the XBOX is a bad device, idiots. He is saying that choosing intel chips and letting nvidia design the GPU was a mistake because it didn't allow them to control the pricing over time. Now they have designed the system top to bottom and the manufacturers are just that, manufacturers. They won't have to pay additional licensing fees for the technology, only manufacturing costs. This is why people hoping the 360 and Revolution components will be the same are dreaming, they aren't.

Anyway if the XBOX was a mistake, its a shame it was a mistake that turned out to be a FAR better product than the PS2 and GC.

theWacoKid
05-16-2005, 10:47 AM
Well I've said my piece, I can so some of you have made up your mind based on preconceived notions and hopes the system will be bad. Good thing the press and people who are actually closer to the games, thus far, are greatly optimistic about the system, along with the developers also.

But back to XBOX what J.Allard say is basically they made mistakes in the design of the XBOX. I read another article where he was talking about this. He is not saying the XBOX is a bad device, idiots. He is saying that choosing intel chips and letting nvidia design the GPU was a mistake because it didn't allow them to control the pricing over time. Now they have designed the system top to bottom and the manufacturers are just that, manufacturers. They won't have to pay additional licensing fees for the technology, only manufacturing costs. This is why people hoping the 360 and Revolution components will be the same are dreaming, they aren't.

Anyway if the XBOX was a mistake, its a shame it was a mistake that turned out to be a FAR better product than the PS2 and GC.

You don't know what you're talking about as per usual. What do you think, genius, nvidia and IBM are just going to hand over THEIR designs and get just a flat fee and then they're out of the picture. And please don't insult people's intelligence here suggeting that MS is now a hardware company and actually designed the cpu and gpu. Give us a break. While MS may now technically own the chip designs for xbox 360, they're going to have shell out royalties to both IBM and ATI for the lifespan of the 360. ATI shares went up based on an estimated 50 million/year they expect to see from royalties. jAny way you cut it, whether you're paying up front for the chip cost or shelling out payments in the form or royalties per xbox sold, its still a cost and money going out. The arrangement MS now has is essentially the arrangement Nintendo has with ATI.

Also, MS still has the very same problems with outsourcing they've had before and that's companies expect to make a profit on the work they do for MS. Also, who do you think MS is going to trust with cpu production besides IBM. Is there some low cost chinese chip maker set up to handle delicate 3 core cpu wafers. I think not.

All you do is read some blurbs off the internet, and buy into the pr spun for xbot flies like yourself. You don't know what's really going on at all.