Blu-ray HD-dvd merge.

[theWacoKid]

Blue-ray Wins
The next generation DVD format gets finalized.
by Anoop Gantayat

May 9, 2005 - Following recent announcements of a move towards compromise in the heated battle to become the next generation home video standard, the Tuesday morning Nihon Keizai Shimbun contains a first report on the shape that such a compromise will take. According to the paper, Sony and Toshiba have entered into final preparations for a format which combines disk technology from Sony with software technology from Toshiba. The two companies plan to offer an unified format to members of their respective high definition video forums as early as next week.

Toshiba's decision to give way on the disk format was apparently made after examining cost issues related to the Sony technology. The merged format will make use of Sony's 0.1 millimeter Blue-ray disk technology with Toshiba's software in place for reading and writing from the disk and handling copyright protection. Toshiba's 0.6 millimeter HD-DVD disk technology will be dropped. The resulting technology will be offered as a new format. It's unclear at this point if the new format will adopt the Blue-ray or the HD-DVD name, or if something completely new will be used.

Sony announced late last year that the next generation PlayStation would make use of the Blue-ray format. The Nihon Keizai article reveals that, as part of the compromise, Blue-ray supporters Sony and Matsu****a were demanding the highest possible storage space for future IT and game applications. This would suggest that, even though Blue-ray as it was known is gone, the new merged standard will end up serving as the format for PS3.

Expect further announcements later this week or at E3.

In a nutshell, blu-ray hardware with HD-dvd software technology. This is going to be a big plus for sony and the ps3 going forward. Hi-def movies on ps3 could be a much bigger killer app than any game if indeed we're moving to the HD era. By the time the ps3 launches, there should be a decent selection of hd movies on tap and good ol MS, well, they'll be wearing egg on their face, boasting about the HD era and not being able to play back movies in HD. Maybe they oughta rethink their marketing campaign.

[trebor]

Makes me wonder if Revolution will also have this new HD-Ray format, since they were rumored to be using HD-DVD.

Imagine if PS3 and Revolution both release using a state of the art HD disc format and Xbox2 has the standard DVD format. I wonder if all the Xbots who were relentless on Nintendo for going with a proprietary disc format will start slamming the Box That Can't.

[thelastword]

Blue-ray Wins
The next generation DVD format gets finalized.
by Anoop Gantayat

May 9, 2005 - Following recent announcements of a move towards compromise in the heated battle (#) to become the next generation home video standard, the Tuesday morning Nihon Keizai Shimbun contains a first report on the shape that such a compromise will take. According to the paper, Sony and Toshiba have entered into final preparations for a format which combines disk technology (#) from Sony with software technology from Toshiba. The two companies plan to offer an unified format to members of their respective high definition video forums as early as next week.

Toshiba's decision to give way on the disk format was apparently made after examining cost issues related to the Sony technology. The merged format will make use of Sony's 0.1 millimeter Blue-ray disk technology with Toshiba's software in place for reading and writing from the disk and handling copyright protection. Toshiba's 0.6 millimeter HD-DVD disk technology will be dropped. The resulting technology will be offered as a new format. It's unclear at this point if the new format will adopt the Blue-ray or the HD-DVD name, or if something completely new will be used.

Sony announced late last year that the next generation PlayStation would make use of the Blue-ray format. The Nihon Keizai article reveals that, as part of the compromise, Blue-ray supporters Sony and Matsu****a were demanding the highest possible storage space for future IT and game applications. This would suggest that, even though Blue-ray as it was known is gone, the new merged standard will end up serving as the format for PS3.

Expect further announcements later this week or at E3.

In a nutshell, blu-ray hardware with HD-dvd software technology. This is going to be a big plus for sony and the ps3 going forward. Hi-def movies on ps3 could be a much bigger killer app than any game if indeed we're moving to the HD era. By the time the ps3 launches, there should be a decent selection of hd movies on tap and good ol MS, well, they'll be wearing egg on their face, boasting about the HD era and not being able to play back movies in HD. Maybe they oughta rethink their marketing campaign.
Well I'm happy it worked out this way, the best feature of both companies was used to give customers the ultimate product. As for Microsoft and Xbox 360 I believe they going full throttle to an early grave, There's just no stopping them now.

[Mochan]

Fare thee well to thine grave, Microsoft.

Whatever happens, I am gratefule to Microsoft for one thing. They brought Morrowind to the XBox, and while I never played it (nor do I even consider doing so) I have to thank MS for the move since it enriched Bethesda's coffers, thus potentially making Oblivion the best it can be.

[theWacoKid]

Makes me wonder if Revolution will also have this new HD-Ray format, since they were rumored to be using HD-DVD.

Imagine if PS3 and Revolution both release using a state of the art HD disc format and Xbox2 has the standard DVD format. I wonder if all the Xbots who were relentless on Nintendo for going with a proprietary disc format will start slamming the Box That Can't.

Honestly don't know how that's possible, since nintendo states Revy is supposed to be b/c with gamecube software. Also, given nintendo's track record of not making consoles with mulitimedia features.

This is more damning for MS, they're the ones talking about the HD era. A split format threatened to short circuit hi-def dvd, but a uniifed format should move things along nicely. As it is, this whole HD era stuff is rather ambiguous. Will companies code in high def or not. Or will companies simply offer the option to use 720p and use algorithms to upscale to 720p like what is essentially done with current games in 720p, which really don't look all that much better than when in 480p.

[trebor]

Honestly don't know how that's possible, since nintendo states Revy is supposed to be b/c with gamecube software. Also, given nintendo's track record of not making consoles with mulitimedia features.

As long as the new hybrid format is backwards compatible with DVDs, then it can be b/c with the Gamecube software. In Japan, Panasonic released a Gamecube model with a full size DVD player in it, which had no problems reading normal DVDs and Cube media.


This is more damning for MS, they're the ones talking about the HD era. A split format threatened to short circuit hi-def dvd, but a uniifed format should move things along nicely. As it is, this whole HD era stuff is rather ambiguous. Will companies code in high def or not. Or will companies simply offer the option to use 720p and use algorithms to upscale to 720p like what is essentially done with current games in 720p, which really don't look all that much better than when in 480p.

Well, that's what M$ gets for releasing ahead of everyone else - they get left behind in the technology front. Which I'm sure won't have any effect on their fanbase...to have the most technologicaly inferior piece of hardware. ;)

[theWacoKid]

Looks like the announcement is premature. Both sony and toshiba are denying that anything has been settled, but they're still talking.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Please, this post is ignorance. First the inclusion of this feature is nice, but its not going to be free. It will cost Sony more to manufacture and they will have to pay Hollywood licensing and possibly royalty fees. All for what? To play movies? I do not think most people will rely on their game machine as there primary movie watching device. Most people will still want to buy their own separate DVD player.

Also, I thought high definition wasn't important. Like I said before, you guys are a bunch of hypocrites. When MS did HD it wasn't important, online it wasn't important. But let Sony do something and all of a sudden, night and day, bam, its important. Forget about HD movies, will PS3 and Revolution support HD gaming out of the box? That's what is important, in case you guys forgot, the games.

Also, most people are beginning to get access to movies on demand with their cable service. This will only grow. In about 5 years, most people will be able to order a movie online and watch it in HD straight from their cable or satellite provider. I just don't think movie watching is going to be a significant factor that is going to doom the XBOX 360. Just like I remember having to buy a remote control was suppose to spell doom for the XBOX.

Well, one thing is for sure, this site is always behind the times. These same guys have been forecasting the death of the XBOX since before it was released. And now again, before 360 is released it is DOOMED. In a few years, we will be here still talking about XBOX 360 and it will be doing quite well. A report in USATODAY said Sony has 43% MS 19% and GC 13% of the US console business. It predicted that after next generation MS would 38% and over take Sony who will have 32%. So, predictions and opinions are just like azzholes, everybody has one.

Oh and about the XBOX 360 being ugly, it is far from that. Its not as stylish as the PS2, but its a damn sight better looking than the Gamecube, which had to be the ugliest console ever designed. Can the MS haterz pleaaaaase JUST SHUT UP. MS isn't going anywhere, get over it.

[joquito]

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray offer nothing to a gamer. Yes they are great features to utilize when NOT gaming but again offers no advantage to a game developer or game player. From a marketing standpoint it will be Awesome for Sony. It is THE ANSWER for MS's "HD Era" slogan.

The big question is, how long will Sony wait to launch the PS3? Can Sony/ Toshiba market their new format (No name has been given yet) enough to create a big demand for it before the PS3 launch. How long will people wait for the PS3? Does anyone remember the time between the DC and PS2 launch? I assumed that the PS3 would have a Summer 2006 Japanese Launch, then a Fall US launch, but that is too soon to convince consumers they need HD-ray. So it looks like a Fall 2006 Japanese launch, followed by a Spring 2007 US launch. That seems like a lot of time. Any ideas on when Sony might launch a PS3?

[Mochan]

No benefit to gamers? Durn! I thought this was talking about some some hi-res game capabilities.

[mandark]

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray offer nothing to a gamer.

What Mochan said above plus a higher capacity disc to handle more data for the games. That means higher resolutions, and bigger game worlds(hopefully). This would be similar to the jump from CD's to DVDs. Unless of course you'd rather purchase 6 discs compared to one then there really is not advantage.

[joquito]

There is potential benefit in higher disc capacity but if you look at current PC games, very few use DVD-9 discs (current DVD discs), so there is no need for more space. HD movies don't particularly need more than 8gig but should. Most current gen games could probably fit on 2 CDs. The move to DVD was primarily a marketing plow to show how technically advance current consoles are.

Trebor: As an Xbot, I had no problem with nintendo using smaller discs. If anything, they may have saved money due to the lack of piracy for the GC. It allowed for a significantly smaller console, which many people liked.

[joquito]

Sony MIGHT be able to use the extra space to put raw HD cutscenes on a HD-Ray disc, relieving the GPU of the work creating it. This may or may not even be an issue. Any $200 videocard can do this no sweat (Who hasn't run a PC game @ 1024 X 768 ), not to mention the next gen console GPUs. Also MS could put HD cutscenes on a DVD-9 disc by using its WM9 codec. Sorry, I was typing while formulating my thoughts.

The Disc capacity issue was discussed here a few months ago. Actually I got this info from Gamespot who took the largest games ever release and none came even close to filling a current DVD.

[mandark]

There is potential benefit in higher disc capacity but if you look at current PC games, very few use DVD-9 discs (current DVD discs), so there is no need for more space. HD movies don't particularly need more than 8gig but should. Most current gen games could probably fit on 2 CDs. The move to DVD was primarily a marketing plow to show how technically advance current consoles are.

Trebor: As an Xbot, I had no problem with nintendo using smaller discs. If anything, they may have saved money due to the lack of piracy for the GC. It allowed for a significantly smaller console, which many people liked.

Lets recap the number of CD's per game on the newest Titles out:
Doom 3 = 3 CDs
Half Life 2 = 5 CDs
Unreal Tournament 2004 = 6 CDs
and the list goes on for todays games that are taking way too many media CDs to install. I for one would love to just see everything go DVD to cut down the number of CDs I have to store away.

[theWacoKid]

Please, this post is ignorance. First the inclusion of this feature is nice, but its not going to be free. It will cost Sony more to manufacture and they will have to pay Hollywood licensing and possibly royalty fees. All for what? To play movies? I do not think most people will rely on their game machine as there primary movie watching device. Most people will still want to buy their own separate DVD player.

Also, I thought high definition wasn't important. Like I said before, you guys are a bunch of hypocrites. When MS did HD it wasn't important, online it wasn't important. But let Sony do something and all of a sudden, night and day, bam, its important. Forget about HD movies, will PS3 and Revolution support HD gaming out of the box? That's what is important, in case you guys forgot, the games.

Also, most people are beginning to get access to movies on demand with their cable service. This will only grow. In about 5 years, most people will be able to order a movie online and watch it in HD straight from their cable or satellite provider. I just don't think movie watching is going to be a significant factor that is going to doom the XBOX 360. Just like I remember having to buy a remote control was suppose to spell doom for the XBOX.

Well, one thing is for sure, this site is always behind the times. These same guys have been forecasting the death of the XBOX since before it was released. And now again, before 360 is released it is DOOMED. In a few years, we will be here still talking about XBOX 360 and it will be doing quite well. A report in USATODAY said Sony has 43% MS 19% and GC 13% of the US console business. It predicted that after next generation MS would 38% and over take Sony who will have 32%. So, predictions and opinions are just like azzholes, everybody has one.

Oh and about the XBOX 360 being ugly, it is far from that. Its not as stylish as the PS2, but its a damn sight better looking than the Gamecube, which had to be the ugliest console ever designed. Can the MS haterz pleaaaaase JUST SHUT UP. MS isn't going anywhere, get over it.

Wah, wah, wah! Cry me a river. In case you missed it, oh, clueless one, I've stated repeatedly for the back of the school bus crowd, that I'd far more likely to consider the purchase of an hd set if I were to watch movies in high def along with the games. Oh, and that USA today report means, what, exactly? Who the frick cares what USA Today thinks and since when did they become an authority on videogames. Those percentages are meaningless. You don't think, period, you live in this world of fps and racing games, and that's all you care about. As long as MS caters to your fix you're as happy as a pig in sh&* and about as bright as one.

[joquito]

Lets recap the number of CD's per game on the newest Titles out:
Doom 3 = 3 CDs
Half Life 2 = 5 CDs
Unreal Tournament 2004 = 6 CDs
and the list goes on for todays games that are taking way too many media CDs to install. I for one would love to just see everything go DVD to cut down the number of CDs I have to store away.


So if every disc from UT 2K4 utilized all 700mb of space, multiplied by 6 discs, you get roughly 4 gigs. Where does the need for 35-50 Gigs come into play? Do you really want to see" The making of " on every game with the daily entries of every single game developer including the janitor on it? That's what you will have for filler. Consumers don't like it on Movie DVDs, I'm sure us gamers can due without it. BTW, PC game publishers use CD discs because they know FOR SURE that the consumer has a CD-ROM drive.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Wah, wah, wah! Cry me a river. In case you missed it, oh, clueless one, I've stated repeatedly for the back of the school bus crowd, that I'd far more likely to consider the purchase of an hd set if I were to watch movies in high def along with the games. Oh, and that USA today report means, what, exactly? Who the frick cares what USA Today thinks and since when did they become an authority on videogames. Those percentages are meaningless. You don't think, period, you live in this world of fps and racing games, and that's all you care about. As long as MS caters to your fix you're as happy as a pig in sh&* and about as bright as one.


Come on WACKO I think we all know when exactly you plan on purchasing or stealing an HD set, when SONY tells you to of course. And, you will be online when Sony tells you to go online. For you, no timing is right until Sony says so. So, you will be stuck in the PS2 world until almost 2007, because Sony says so. I couldn't imagine being stuck with the PS2, 2 years ago, let alone for almost another 2 years.

As far as USATODAY idiot, it really isn't their opinion, its the opinion of analysts they interviewed. And I would say their opinion is less smelly than yours, that's for sure. So, why don't you just go back into your hole and play your PSP with Ridge Racer and JUST SHADDDUP ALREADY!

[Jupiter_x]

Most current gen games could probably fit on 2 CDs. The move to DVD was primarily a marketing plow to show how technically advance current consoles are.

I have to agree with joquito here. I have actually seen some Xbox games (Oddworld and Enclave) transferred to and played on a CD ROM! Mind you the cinamatics were blotchy looking!

[Mochan]

The biggest games released aren't current gen games, though. The biggest games were those crap that came out when CD-ROMs first became the rage. Stink like Phantasmagoria (I think that one was like 7 or 8 CDs). That was back in the mid 90's! And all that space is taken up by turd cinematics formatted in avi or something that looked horrible but ate up so much space!

I'm so happy that the PC industry realized how stupid it was.

[thelastword]

Technology is progressive not retroactive, It just seems that many of you are denying HD-RAY's importance for some very foolish reasons;

The fact is, we all should be expecting more advanced technology next gen, If more aspects of next gen hardware is revolutionized, how can anyone talk against this, beats me...

Some current games use 5-6 cds and still do not max out a standard dvd, true, but does that mean that developers will never need over 9GB in the future? Afterall, the HD-ERA is upon us, could it be that programmers will do their coding natively for HD. These next gen systems will all be graphical powerhouses drawing gaming worlds so huge not possible before and of course will attempt to do this all seamlessy with all the bells and whistles mind you, Antisoptric Filtering, Anti-Aliasing, V-sync, and who knows how many new graphical features will be implemented. All of these will require more storage as well, speak about polygonal overload, true to life texturing, surround sound files and what about the Physics Processing Unit we've been hearing about, won't that need programming as well. CG movies in games is yet another consideration here, these things can take a huge chunk of storage as well especially when the production values skyrocket.

I don't know what some of you guys are thinking, but I believe that next gen will be a real step up from what we've seen thus far, It's coming and I'm embracing it full-fledged, If DVD-9 is enough for some of you, then it certainly is not for me. The same thing can be said of XBOX LIVE, If online multiplayer is going to take off next gen should Sony just give us a mock up XBOX LIVE, Hell NO! revolutionize the whole dang thing, take online to the next level. shhhh!!

[Jupiter_x]

Hey! "The Last Word" Don't get me wrong, I am all for this Blue-Ray Technology, I love innovation (If utilized properly) I cannot wait to see this new Technology front on PS3. The games alone will change and Map Size will definetly increase (Oblivion anyone?)

[Jupiter_x]

Lets recap the number of CD's per game on the newest Titles out:
Doom 3 = 3 CDs
Half Life 2 = 5 CDs
Unreal Tournament 2004 = 6 CDs
and the list goes on for todays games that are taking way too many media CDs to install. I for one would love to just see everything go DVD to cut down the number of CDs I have to store away.

Oh Man, the PC market really needs to implement DVD technology in the worst way. 3 cds? 5 cds?

Ok, Ok! my Halflife 2 game came in DVD format so it was only one disc! no flip flopping 5 CDs for this one! But the DVD games are few and far between!

Why hasn't the PC market caught up yet.... it's been what...a 5 year standard on consoles now? C'mon! :mad:

[slade]

The funny thing is that the X-box fans are the ones decrying advancement in technology. You guys were so into the tech last time, what happened?

[theWacoKid]

Come on WACKO I think we all know when exactly you plan on purchasing or stealing an HD set, when SONY tells you to of course. And, you will be online when Sony tells you to go online. For you, no timing is right until Sony says so. So, you will be stuck in the PS2 world until almost 2007, because Sony says so. I couldn't imagine being stuck with the PS2, 2 years ago, let alone for almost another 2 years.

As far as USATODAY idiot, it really isn't their opinion, its the opinion of analysts they interviewed. And I would say their opinion is less smelly than yours, that's for sure. So, why don't you just go back into your hole and play your PSP with Ridge Racer and JUST SHADDDUP ALREADY!

You know something dufus, I got a feeling I've probably played as much as you have on xbox live, so drop the BS. I've also played online on ps2. You're like some old dude with alzheimer's, I have to keep reminding you that I consider xbox live a better overall service for online than what sony has, but that MS shouldn't be charging for it. I'm not paying $80 plus tax canadian a year just to maintain a buddy list. I've stated this how many fricking times, jerkweed.

Yeah, well, I've seen analyst predictions too, and a lot have said that its going to be the same thing all over again, with MS picking up some percentage points but they're not coming from sony but rather from nintendo.

You can't imagine, period, that's your problem, you also can't remember what's been posted. You're the copout king. You bash sony at every opportunity, then you turn around, and say I don't hate sony, you hedge your bets to give yourself an out so that when the ps3 comes and kicks mucho ass you can justify to yourself, I'm going with sony, because when push comes to shove you're an insecure gamer who needs the reassurrance of specs to make a decision. Ohh, it pushes the most polys, gimme that one. What's got the highest frame rate, I need that for my bling, bling, bang, bang games. Why don't you turn the gun on yourself, with your lack of imagination, you've been dead for years and haven't realized it.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Is this guy (wacokid) really any better than Moody? I don't know what standards the mods on this board is using but Mass, Moody and a few others get the ax but he remains. Don't get it twist it I'm not looking for ole' Wackoff to get banned far from it. But it does seems weird that Moody and Mass got banned when he's still here.

[Gadfly2317]

Is this guy (wacokid) really any better than Moody? I don't know what standards the mods on this board is using but Mass, Moody and a few others get the ax but he remains. Don't get it twist it I'm not looking for ole' Wackoff to get banned far from it. But it does seems weird that Moody and Mass got banned when he's still here.

Oh come on, give me a freaking break. . . please tell me you've got a better ability to discern circumstance and substance than that?!?!

As much as I liked Mass (and we truly loathed each other too) he made a death threat towards a mod (and even though I perceived it as hyperbolic rhetoric rather than an actual threat, I can at least see the mods position.)

And Moody was a retard who refused to ever respond to actually points made in response to his posts, was repeatedly disgusting, sexist, racist and even though I personally wasn't offended by any of that part too much, he was repeatedly warned, repeatedly "temporarily banned" and given chance after chance. It was like he just called someone a name or two or used a naughty word and got the boot.

As far as Waco, I don't even get the comparison AT ALL. As much as I've locked horns with Waco, the fact is his posts are intelligent, well written, full of content and usually fact, and his opinions which I often disagree with may be controversial and occasionally even assinine (as all opinions are that don't agree with mine) but at least he's able to back up those opinions with sound reasons. That was something Moody NEVER did.

So please, give it a rest. Moody was a vertible STD on this board, causing painful flair up after painful flair up. We all know the board has been better since he got the boot.

[joquito]

The question isn't whether programmers will need more than 8 Gigs ever but when. I don't see the need for higher capacity discs for at least 5 years. RAM is crucial to graphics and MS and Sony are all be cringing at the though of adding 512 RAM. Adding 1 Gig of RAM wouldn't cost Sony any more money if they just use a standard DVD-Rom drive. Now that would be something for Sony fans to boast. If you are a Sony Fan put your hope in the Cell, not Blu-ray, for enhancing your gaming experience.

[Gadfly2317]

Please, this post is ignorance. First the inclusion of this feature is nice, but its not going to be free. It will cost Sony more to manufacture and they will have to pay Hollywood licensing and possibly royalty fees. All for what? To play movies? I do not think most people will rely on their game machine as there primary movie watching device. Most people will still want to buy their own separate DVD player..
If movies aren't important, why is Xbox2 going to play DvD movies at all? Clearly multimedia is important to some extent. And don't you think it is significantly humorous that MS is touting the Xbox2 as heralding the "HD Era" and it will the multi-media game system that can't play HD movies?


Also, I thought high definition wasn't important. Like I said before, you guys are a bunch of hypocrites. When MS did HD it wasn't important, online it wasn't important. But let Sony do something and all of a sudden, night and day, bam, its important. Forget about HD movies, will PS3 and Revolution support HD gaming out of the box? That's what is important, in case you guys forgot, the games.
Where are your principles man? You've been touting system tech advantage for years. If the ps3 has higher media storage, faster processing, more games AND plays movies in HD, why is it not the better choice for gamers?



Well, one thing is for sure, this site is always behind the times. These same guys have been forecasting the death of the XBOX since before it was released. And now again, before 360 is released it is DOOMED. In a few years, we will be here still talking about XBOX 360 and it will be doing quite well. A report in USATODAY said Sony has 43% MS 19% and GC 13% of the US console business. It predicted that after next generation MS would 38% and over take Sony who will have 32%. So, predictions and opinions are just like azzholes, everybody has one.
I would say a mere 19% is doom for Xbox, especially since a lot of that 19% will own other systems. The thing is, without significant 1st party software sales or better revenues Xbox2 will continue to lose money for the MS games division, and stockholders aren't going to approve of that situation in perpetuity. Nintendo may only hold 13 percent of the market, but with strong first party software revenues and less expensive hardware investments, it ensures their continued existence. Just the way it is.



Oh and about the XBOX 360 being ugly, it is far from that. Its not as stylish as the PS2, but its a damn sight better looking than the Gamecube, which had to be the ugliest console ever designed. Can the MS haterz pleaaaaase JUST SHUT UP. MS isn't going anywhere, get over it.

No, it is seriously undeniably ugly.

[thelastword]

The question isn't whether programmers will need more than 8 Gigs ever but when. I don't see the need for higher capacity discs for at least 5 years. RAM is crucial to graphics and MS and Sony are all be cringing at the though of adding 512 RAM. Adding 1 Gig of RAM wouldn't cost Sony any more money if they just use a standard DVD-Rom drive. Now that would be something for Sony fans to boast. If you are a Sony Fan put your hope in the Cell, not Blu-ray, for enhancing your gaming experience.
A very convenient thing to say, (I don't see the need for more capacity in the next 5yrs), could it be because the xbox won't support it until then. I just gave many reasons why extra storage may be used next gen and you counter that with talk of RAM, honestly I don't see the correlation. Granted ram is important, but has anything concrete been revealed on that yet.

The point is, I want a serious overhaul next gen, Sony does have the market to popularize any newly adopted media and as I said before, the space will be utilized whether you see it or not. It already appears that the PS3's Cell chip coupled with the Nvidia GPU will be the most powerful of the consoles, If any console needs extra storage, It would be the PS3.

The only area that Xbox 360 will advance from this gen seems to be graphics and when the PS3 and Revolution debuts with their extra horsepower,advanced media storage, superior sound processing units, better and perhaps free online plans, XBOX 360 will a substandard backward machine. Nothing stays the same, advancement in life/industry is always necessary and crucial, Sony is taking the right step here.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Oh come on, give me a freaking break. . . please tell me you've got a better ability to discern circumstance and substance than that?!?!

As much as I liked Mass (and we truly loathed each other too) he made a death threat towards a mod (and even though I perceived it as hyperbolic rhetoric rather than an actual threat, I can at least see the mods position.)

And Moody was a retard who refused to ever respond to actually points made in response to his posts, was repeatedly disgusting, sexist, racist and even though I personally wasn't offended by any of that part too much, he was repeatedly warned, repeatedly "temporarily banned" and given chance after chance. It was like he just called someone a name or two or used a naughty word and got the boot.

As far as Waco, I don't even get the comparison AT ALL. As much as I've locked horns with Waco, the fact is his posts are intelligent, well written, full of content and usually fact, and his opinions which I often disagree with may be controversial and occasionally even assinine (as all opinions are that don't agree with mine) but at least he's able to back up those opinions with sound reasons. That was something Moody NEVER did.

So please, give it a rest. Moody was a vertible STD on this board, causing painful flair up after painful flair up. We all know the board has been better since he got the boot.

Mass made a death threat? Must have missed that one. Say what you want about Moody he resorted into personal attacks and flames no more than Waco does. I'm not complaining I wish they just outright allow flaming (to an extent). Moody was giving warnings but it seemed like they were over a bunch of nonsense.Waco's post as of late seem to be extremely personal. Anyway I'm finished with that and I will never post on it again.

The tech advantage. It's funny how us Xbots are being called hypocritical when the same can be said for everyone else. What happened to "I don't play specs" and gameplay matters yadda yadda yadda?

The reason the specs won't matter much this gen. Is because I seriously doubt the PS3 will be able to do graphical tricks that the Xbox360 won't. This gen the Xbox had pixel shaders, real time lighting, bumpmapping, normal mapping, etc. Next gen both systems will be able to do all the same things there won't be something the PS3 can do that the Xbox can. The PS3 may be able to do it at a higher resolution but all Xbox games will be at 720p so there won't be much of an advantage at that. Personally I think 720 is better than 1080 for movies and T.V. anyway. Now take that and add in the fact that the Xbox will again be an easier platform to program for the PS3 supposed tech advantage is slipping even further.

As for Blu-ray if it ever comes to a point that a DVD-9 is not enough (I doubt it count on games getting shorter because of development cost even Oblivion is supposed to be shorter than Morrowind as far as the size of the game world) then that's a legitimate advantage for the PS3 it's a shame that it will be in a non game playing capacity. As far as MS having egg on there face about the HD era. UMMM Every game on the GAME CONSOLE will be in HD. Nintendo supporting Blu ray and Movie playback? What is this the Bizzaro world come on. It seems like since there is info on the next Xbox you guys are just jumping all over it automatically assuming that the next consoles will trump it.

What makes you think that Sony will offer an Xbox live like service?
What makes you think that Sony will give you a HDD?
Where is this confidence in Nintendo coming from and what's it's based on?
Will multiple PS3 units be as bad for Sony as multiple Xbox360's will be for MS?

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

A very convenient thing to say, (I don't see the need for more capacity in the next 5yrs), could it be because the xbox won't support it until then. I just gave many reasons why extra storage may be used next gen and you counter that with talk of RAM, honestly I don't see the correlation. Granted ram is important, but has anything concrete been revealed on that yet.

The point is, I want a serious overhaul next gen, Sony does have the market to popularize any newly adopted media and as I said before, the space will be utilized whether you see it or not. It already appears that the PS3's Cell chip coupled with the Nvidia GPU will be the most powerful of the consoles, If any console needs extra storage, It would be the PS3.

The only area that Xbox 360 will advance from this gen seems to be graphics and when the PS3 and Revolution debuts with their extra horsepower,advanced media storage, superior sound processing units, better and perhaps free online plans, XBOX 360 will a substandard backward machine. Nothing stays the same, advancement in life/industry is always necessary and crucial, Sony is taking the right step here.

WTF Seriously wtf! Where do you get this Bullshi+ from. Better sound? why because you said so. Better online especially from Nintendo? Why what little bird told you that line of crap? Can you at least point to some decent rumors or are you just pulling crap out you A$$!

[trebor]

WTF Seriously wtf! Where do you get this Bullshi+ from. Better sound? why because you said so. Better online especially from Nintendo? Why what little bird told you that line of crap? Can you at least point to some decent rumors or are you just pulling crap out you A$$!

Speaking of "wtf", WTF is up with the Xbot hypocrisy on this message board?

Gamecube got slammed, no...DEVOURED, by you Xbots because it didn't have a DVD player. Because, if I recall correctly, having a DVD player was a big selling point with PS2 and Xbox, and the Gamecube suffered because it's storage capacity was smaller then the competitors.

So...how can a true HD media upgrade for home consoles NOT be a hugh selling point? Are you going to tell me that even if games won't be utilizing the storage, that being able to watch the next-gen DVD format on your home console isn't a HUGE freaking advantage?

Oh, oh..wait...let me guess...is the Xbox 360 going to be a game only machine? HUH? That's not how Billy is trying to sell it atm. Jeez. :p

p.s. the current rumor surrounding Nintendo's online policy for Revolution is that it will be WI-FI capable right out of the box and that online play will be FREE. Which, I'm not sorry to say, kicks the **** out of Xbox Live. :D

[Mochan]

(I doubt it count on games getting shorter because of development cost even Oblivion is supposed to be shorter than Morrowind as far as the size of the game world)

Oblivion's gameworld is supposed to be larger than Morrowind's.

[T.Tashi]

I remember when Phantasmagoria came out. That thing was a whopping 7 cds.

The only problem I have with the medium is costs. Bigger games mean longer development times, most cost, and more risk. I hate to think like a publisher but I'm just being realistic. The cost of next generation games is a huge issue right now. I may be interested in paying more if our games come packaged like games in Japan. When I bought Lunar for the PS1 it came with a crapload of extras, (some of it I admit pretty unless to me, like the pendant) including the soundtrack and a leather bound manual. Anyhoo, I'm hoping the cost doesn't go up, but I'm still bracing for it.

Hollywood and the game industry are fully merged... for better or worse. I think having a unit play games and movies is too important a selling point to back off it now. Sure for gamers, the emphasis is on games, but in presenting this type of unit to the mainstream market, the ability to have multiple uses is a standard key point.

[BaneNWN]

Oblivion's gameworld is supposed to be larger than Morrowind's.

Im pretty sure i read somewhere oblivions world is only about half the size of morrowinds.

[Mochan]

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1356

Go to third paragraph. Gavin Carter (dev for Bethesda) explicitly states Oblivion is larger.

"kathode: Yes, Oblivion is bigger as far as land mass goes."

[thelastword]

It surely must be painful drunk, being an Xbot and all, that the monotonous talk of better tech will never more be spewed from your drunkened lips, but I guess that's something you'll have to live with, Don't booze out too much because of it though, although your assinine posts already suggests that you have.

Anyhoos, better sound is inconceivable huh!, no no no, the only console maker capable of tech advantages with a year to play with is Microsoft. That drunkened factoid did play the elusive game on me, I must admit. You are seriously underestimating Nintendo's worth are'nt you, they simply are'nt capable of much in your book is that it. I'm no direct proponent of Nintendo, but even a fool would know that you don't underestimate your opponent. That alone is reason enough for me to believe that they'll take 2nd spot back, you just wait and see.

[joquito]

Technology is progressive not retroactive, It just seems that many of you are denying HD-RAY's importance for some very foolish reasons;

The fact is, we all should be expecting more advanced technology next gen, If more aspects of next gen hardware is revolutionized, how can anyone talk against this, beats me...

Some current games use 5-6 cds and still do not max out a standard dvd, true, but does that mean that developers will never need over 9GB in the future? Afterall, the HD-ERA is upon us, could it be that programmers will do their coding natively for HD. These next gen systems will all be graphical powerhouses drawing gaming worlds so huge not possible before and of course will attempt to do this all seamlessy with all the bells and whistles mind you, Antisoptric Filtering, Anti-Aliasing, V-sync, and who knows how many new graphical features will be implemented. All of these will require more storage as well, speak about polygonal overload, true to life texturing, surround sound files and what about the Physics Processing Unit we've been hearing about, won't that need programming as well. CG movies in games is yet another consideration here, these things can take a huge chunk of storage as well especially when the production values skyrocket.

I don't know what some of you guys are thinking, but I believe that next gen will be a real step up from what we've seen thus far, It's coming and I'm embracing it full-fledged, If DVD-9 is enough for some of you, then it certainly is not for me. The same thing can be said of XBOX LIVE, If online multiplayer is going to take off next gen should Sony just give us a mock up XBOX LIVE, Hell NO! revolutionize the whole dang thing, take online to the next level. shhhh!!

Nothing mentioned above warrants more storage capacity. Antisoptric filtering, anti-aliasing, etc have very little to nothing to do with disc storage. Video Ram does play a part in implementing those features. I don't hate the idea of more disc storage, its just poor usage of funds.

[thelastword]

Nothing mentioned above warrants more storage capacity. Antisoptric filtering, anti-aliasing, etc have very little to nothing to do with disc storage. Video Ram does play a part in implementing those features. I don't hate the idea of more disc storage, its just poor usage of funds.
Fine, I agree that these are more or less graphical features which video ram will push, but the instructions to output these effects will be sourced from the media, larger maps/levels, more polygonal usage, higher-res textures, larger sound files, more complex ai routines, all have to occupy media more or less. What about cg movies as well, they are all part of games now all these things will be coded in ultra hi-res and will naturally require more space.

In terms of poor usage of funds, I don't think so. Apart from next gen games, You will also have the ability to view Hd-Movies right out of the box, how is that a waist of funds, when a newer, better, more advanced storage device is going to be ushered in. As a customer who in all probabilty will get a PS3, with this advanced Hd-drive, the most powerful CPU/GPU on a console for only $300-400, I'm certainly not worried, at all.

[theWacoKid]

p.s. the current rumor surrounding Nintendo's online policy for Revolution is that it will be WI-FI capable right out of the box and that online play will be FREE. Which, I'm not sorry to say, kicks the **** out of Xbox Live. :D

Not a rumor, Iwata's already confirmed that Revy will be wifi capable out of the box along with it being b/c. DS online has been announced as being free and using gamespy technology. If xbox live is the only service charging all I can say, is screw MS.

[BaneNWN]

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1356

Go to third paragraph. Gavin Carter (dev for Bethesda) explicitly states Oblivion is larger.

"kathode: Yes, Oblivion is bigger as far as land mass goes."

ahh ok i wasnt sure thanks for the clarification.To be honest i wanted it to be atleast as big as morrowind.I didnt want a morrowind with better graphics but smaller.Im glad they worked more on the npc,s for oblivion as that was the weak point imo in morrowind was most npc,s said the same thing.

[joquito]

Fine, I agree that these are more or less graphical features which video ram will push, but the instructions to output these effects will be sourced from the media, larger maps/levels, more polygonal usage, higher-res textures, larger sound files, more complex ai routines, all have to occupy media more or less. What about cg movies as well, they are all part of games now all these things will be coded in ultra hi-res and will naturally require more space.

In terms of poor usage of funds, I don't think so. Apart from next gen games, You will also have the ability to view Hd-Movies right out of the box, how is that a waist of funds, when a newer, better, more advanced storage device is going to be ushered in. As a customer who in all probabilty will get a PS3, with this advanced Hd-drive, the most powerful CPU/GPU on a console for only $300-400, I'm certainly not worried, at all.

What are you expecting from the next gen consoles? At best they will consistently put out games graphically equal to Half-life 2 and Doom 3(PC versions). I wouldn't expect a whole lot more. The above games could easily fit onto a DVD disc. Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 can be TRULY labeled High Definition if the publishers feel a reason to do so. Consoles have always lagged behind PC in regards to raw horsepower and graphics. I don't really expect that to change much this time around. All the things you want exist on PC games right now and they don't need the extra storage discs. I digress....

[mandark]

What are you expecting from the next gen consoles? At best they will consistently put out games graphically equal to Half-life 2 and Doom 3(PC versions). I wouldn't expect a whole lot more. The above games could easily fit onto a DVD disc. Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 can be TRULY labeled High Definition if the publishers feel a reason to do so. Consoles have always lagged behind PC in regards to raw horsepower and graphics. I don't really expect that to change much this time around. All the things you want exist on PC games right now and they don't need the extra storage discs. I digress....
That is the most pessimistic view of what the new gen systems I've seen to date. I for one am expecting to see stunning visuals to come to the next gen systems just based on what EA has shown thus far. And with high resolutions will come the need for bigger and bigger storage media. All you have to do is look back in history. The very first games that came out easily fit in a 720kb floppy disks. From there it went to 10 to 20 1.4mb floppies. That is then followed by the CD which was enormous for its time. And only the most recent games are taking up the entire DVD. You have to remember that the Half Life 2 files in multiple CDs are highly compressed and when decompressed to a hard drive took more than 5 GB of space. And if you think about it the worlds for HL2 and Doom3 are very small. With the next gen of systems I am expecting more expansive worlds with more believable graphics and a higher quality of AI.

I don't know about you but the "sour grapes" syndrome seems to be taking an about face and is now infecting X-bots instead.

[Mochan]

These next gen systems will all be graphical powerhouses drawing gaming worlds so huge not possible before and of course will attempt to do this all seamlessy with all the bells and whistles mind you, Antisoptric Filtering, Anti-Aliasing, V-sync, and who knows how many new graphical features will be implemented. All of these will require more storage as well, speak about polygonal overload, true to life texturing, surround sound files and what about the Physics Processing Unit we've been hearing about, won't that need programming as well.

Joquito is right. AF, AA, V-Sync require absolutely no extra storage. These are effects created by the GPU and will affect any kind of texture/3D render after reading from the memory and before displaying on the screen.

The only thing that will require any significant amount of extra storage are textures, and hi-res video for FMVs. Granted, tomorrow's textures *will* take up a large amount of space. Far Cry bumped up to 5CDs and textures are a major contributor to that size.

PPU programming likely will not take up too much disk space. As said, it's just programming. Those are just numbers being thrown around, those take up very little space.

The games alone will change and Map Size will definetly increase (Oblivion anyone?)

Map size isn't really dependent on disk space. It depends more on the number of unique meshes/models/bleh and especially the textures used for the map. Daggerfall had a much larger map size than Morrowind (heck it had larger map size than Morrowind AND Oblivion combined!) but it fit on less than 1 CD (I think it was only like 200MB or something).

That said, the largest gameworld after Daggerfall coming up is from Boiling Point, 625 square kilometers of rain forest in a seamless, no-loading 100% fully-streaming world!

Oh Man, the PC market really needs to implement DVD technology in the worst way. 3 cds? 5 cds?

You said it. Installing these games is a headache! It's not like DVD ROMs aren't every on PCs either. While it's true that not all PCs are equipped with DVDs, the cost of a DVD ROM drive is negligible!


Adding 1 Gig of RAM wouldn't cost Sony any more money if they just use a standard DVD-Rom drive.

I agree that I would rather have a gig of RAM rather than a new DVD format. Better storage has its advantages (FF8 showed that you could come up with some kick-ass graphics for its time by melding the FMVs from the CD with actual ingame gameplay) but a gig of RAM will do far more. It's not for graphics though; its for speed. Graphics is the domain of the GPU, not the RAM. RAM will simply speed up load times and overall system performance, and the size of the maps being loaded as well as how many onscreen objects. But for the actual graphics the main work to determine how fast and detailed everything is lies solely with the GPU.

[Mochan]

Mandark has a point, though. The next gen games will certainly be using better textures and larger maps, which means that, not too far down the road, games will be spanning multiple DVDs. DVD-9 games may still fit for the next year or two but after that we'll start seeing double DVD-9 games, this isn't really a question of "if" but "when." And I'm pretty sure it'll be in the lifespan of the next gen consoles.

One thing to consider is that current console games are running on rather low res and this means the textures aren't as big as they should be. Next gen games should easily fill up a DVD with the new processing and graphical power.

My concern though is that I find 512MB to be lacking. The processors they intend to use for these consoles is on the class of 3Ghz PC CPUs or better. At least. And actually they have multiple cores! PCs today, even at 3Ghz or less (above 2Ghz) use 1GB of RAM easy for optimum power. I think that 512MB RAM is too little for the next gen processors with their multiple 3Ghz cores and awesome Bus speeds. If I personally had to make design cut between 1GB RAM and Blu-Ray, I'd take the Gig.

But most people (and the company marketers know this) would probably prefer the BluRay.