Gran Turismo Dethroned! [Archive] - VideoGameReview Forums

View Full Version : Gran Turismo Dethroned!

DrunkenThumbmaster

04-29-2005, 08:49 AM

This is the first review for Forza mortorsport!
http://www.aussiexbox.com.au/template_sec_games.cfm?page_id=32272177110031018&se_id=149&site_id=11003

I’m sitting here in front of my TV, with the laptop on the coffee table, the 5.1 turned right up, a cold drink, and Forza Motorsport in my Xbox tray ready to write my review. A game I’ve been waiting for throughout the entire life of the Xbox. I sit back, turn the ignition, and dive into the game wondering where this ride is going to take me.

Forza Motorsport is a racing simulator, saying that it’s a road-racing simulator. You won’t find any Rally modes in Forza Motorsport as the game hasn’t been designed with that in mind, after all we have Rallisport Challenge and Colin McRae Rally for that. This game is also not for arcade racing fans, so if you're keen on games like Burnout 3 or the current Need for Speed franchise, then this won’t be the cup of tea you're use to drinking. I can safely say however, that Forza Motorsport is what every true car enthusiast has been waiting for, a showroom where any car is yours to test-drive. It’s been well worth the wait.

Basically there are three main parts to Forza Motorsport, arcade racing, career mode and the multiplayer component. There are other modes including cone challenges, drag strips and time trials but the game focuses more on the three key components.

ARCADE

The arcade mode allows the player to jump straight into the driver's seat without any need to play through the career mode and build up their garage. In this mode you are provided with a set range of vehicles and tracks already available. As you progress through the arcade mode you'll unlock more tracks by being placed in one of the top three spots from the previous series. You will also have the opportunity to unlock some of the 230+ cars that can be found in the game, and each one you unlock becomes available in multiplayer and free run modes of the game as well, which makes for interesting Xbox Live battles. In total there are twelve series in the arcade mode, ending with the famous and all time favourite 21km Nurburgring Nordschieife circuit.

'The arcade mode is really for the gamer who demands an
instantly gratifying racing experience that's easy to pick up and play'

There’s a range of car classes to choose from in this mode, as well as the ability to open up your garage to select one of the cars you have obtained from the career mode. In addition, the choice of vehicle you take from your own garage directly affects the line up of opponent vehicles you'll be competing against. The question you'll ask yourself is, should you make your car the top of a particular class, or the bottom of another? A multitude of decisions will be made when tuning your cars in Forza.

The arcade mode is really for the gamer who demands an instantly gratifying racing experience that's easy to pick up and play. It allows you to jump right in and test-drive most of the cars form the game and sample some of the circuit and point-to-point tracks Forza has to offer.

CAREER MODE

The Career mode is what you would expect from a racing simulator; this is ultimately what Forza Motorsport is all about. You start of as nobody special with a small amount of cash, then you are given just enough money to purchase your first car and possibly a few small upgrades. It’s then up to you to enter some races, win some money, and build up your garage to look like your own showroom.

The great thing about Forza is the level of detail they have placed into the career mode, which is evident when upgrading and modifying your vehicles, but it spans a lot further than that. When you first create a profile in Forza you have the option to choose your Home Region, from here you select either North America, Europe or Asia. This will have a significant impact in how your career will progress. Choosing a region determines the availability and cost of certain cars during the game. For example, choosing Asia as your home region will start you off with access to the Asian car market, which will more than likely leave you racing around in a Nissan Skyline GTR. Moreover, you will find that getting the opportunity to race an American Corvette is less likely to happen until the later stages of the game, the opposite happening if you were to start in the North American region. The rarer the car in your region also equates to larger transactions prices when buying or selling, and will result in bonus credits for racing in other events outside your home region.

As you progress further you will need certain cars to race in certain events, and the cars must be of a certain class. In Forza there is a total of six classes. The main classes are D, C, B, A, S and R. There are also sub classes under R, these are GT, GTS and P1. I’ll let you play the game to figure out what each one means.

MULTIPLAYER

Forza Motorsport offers split screen, system link and Xbox Live multiplayer modes. You can race up to eight players over Xbox Live and system link.

The Xbox Live multiplayer mode also includes an online career mode. Here you will use cars from your own garage to race other people with the results going towards your own online career, earning you credits for your offline career where you can spend more on upgrades, new cars etc.

When you start, you’re presented with a range of classes to race in that reflect the class of your vehicle, which is dependant on what car you’re currently driving and its upgrades. This is a great way to control the races you enter with set restrictions in place, testing the balance put into the car by the gamers. In regards to tuning and modifying your car, it’s going to be very interesting to see how people will set up different cars to be the top of a certain class, without raising it to the level of the next class. The game really tests user knowledge and understanding of balancing out car upgrades, keeping cars powerful yet without climbing into the class above.

XBOX LIVE

What would be a great racing simulator without online features? Well fortunate enough Xbox users have the ability to take Forza Motorsport online over Xbox Live. When you first start the game you will notice the game attempts to log in to Xbox Live. Very much like Project Gotham 2, the game tracks your best lap times and uploads them to the leader boards. That’s not all, Microsoft Game Studios (MGS) have taken the next step with Forza and introduced new features that have yet to be seen.

For example, you have a car and it’s upgraded to be the ultimate speed machine with superchargers, better tyres, and weight reduction to name a few. You complete a perfect lap but you’re still a good 10 seconds off SpeedDemon99, your friend on Xbox Live. You can’t figure out how he’s pulling 10 seconds off your time with the same car. This is where Forza sets its online features away from the competition, not only does it let you download another gamer's replay to see how they took to the track, but it also offers the gamer the ability to download their complete car set-up.

'Groups can build their own clubs and their stats and information are then tracked as a group
in different leader boards. Car clubs then get to race online in a car club challenge mode
where clubs can battle it out in team racing to obtain bragging rights'

Heading back into the garage, you then have the option to load their car set-up into your new finely tuned beast and then attempt to beat their time. This will result in your car being tuned exactly as he raced it with the same modifications that he applied to his vehicle. If you haven’t purchased all the parts he used however, you can opt to tune just those particular parts you have or to cancel the upgrade. This adds an exciting feature and one we have yet to see for Xbox Live users. Someone with great technical skills in setting the performance level and upgrades of a car will have to share his skills with the novice gamers over Xbox Live. This is a great feature for the community and will allow people who are just good racers to bring those lap times down with the aid of a car enthusiast’s technical knowledge.

The other noticeable feature for Xbox Live is the online Car Clubs. Groups can build their own clubs and their stats and information are then tracked as a group in different leader boards. Car clubs then get to race online in a car club challenge mode where clubs can battle it out in team racing to obtain bragging rights. The online car club can have up to 100 members in it and also adds another friends list allowing you to find other club members at any time while playing Forza Motorsport. A car club lets you set a team motto, description, and URL for other racers around the world to look up.

Now one of the features of every racing simulator I’ve played is the ability to buy and sell cars. You can still do all this in Forza as well as win cars, but now with the innovative gurus at Microsoft Game Studios, they have created an online Xbox Car Yard. What this means is you can create a online room, or simply join one already created solely for the purpose to buy and sell cars. This can come in handy if you’re after an American car for a good price that is too expensive to secure in the offline mode.

When hosting a room on Xbox Live, the user gets the opportunity to configure the room how he sees fit. Setting the number of laps, extent of damage, tyre/fuel wear, and maximum player/friend reserve spots to name the basic settings.

The ELO option (ranked or unranked) for a race can be turned on or off when hosting. The Forza ELO ranking system is based on a chess rating system used for the United States Chess Federation, not unlike the one used for Rainbow Six. It includes such variables as a player's rating, the probability of a win for each player, and the effects of a win or loss on a player's rating. However, I wasn't able to find extra information in the way of what modifications and/or upgrades your opponents have made to their chosen vehicle before a race. This was a little disappointing considering you can challenge someone who has the same car as you, but be completely outclassed without you realising beforehand. The advantage the host has to stop issues like this arising, is to set the car class before gamers choose their vehicles. Leaving it free only when you trust that the people in the room won't choose an overpowered vehicle before you take the grid.

A host can choose what game type he decides to host as well, and the type of race such as team racing or car club races. These include circuit racing around a track, or simply point-to-point racing. If he is in need of a new car, then he can simply host a Buy and Sell room and wait for potential shoppers to come and have a look at what he has to offer.

So what about the GAMEPLAY?

Forza Motorsport is a game with as much depth as an Abyss. With each feature as good, and as compelling as the next, where does one begin? In order to test the gameplay and MGS's claim to realism, I drove some of the cars under certain conditions to see how it measures up.

I started with a simple one. On a hill, I rolled down from a handbrake stop, without using any assistance from the accelerator, and the thing I noticed with this was the fact that in different cars the roll speed would vary on the same hill depending on variables such as car weight, engine location and gearbox types. Not that this is important but every little bit of detail counts right? Will I slash seconds off my time wall riding or bouncing of walls in Forza, other racing simulators allow for cheap wins using these methods. How about using the bumper car method for cornering? Unlike another recently released racing simulator, this game will take mistakes considerably into your overall result, as well as common forms of shaving seconds such as cutting corners. Try to use a wall for your cornering advantage, this will take considerable speed away. I dropped a good five to ten seconds when trying to cut corners to my advantage, in some instances when the track is set out as a chicane it was less noticeable, but in places like Laguna Seca good luck trying to cut that track. It depended on variables such as ripple strips and the likes. As for the use of the bumper car method, well the AI in this game is a notch above any other I’ve seen in some time. Cars will back off and purposely block you, often they will not even give you the chance to do so. Many times it was hard for me to even attempt to pull these manoeuvres off. If I did try to push them to help me take a corner, it would often result in the car in front turning into me and causing a larger mess than I was intending, or taking him into the nearest wall with me. Time will tell more so when people start racing online.

'The game's AI stands out in a way that you'll start to notice their behavioural patterns
when racing. They don’t just play the role of seven other cars either;
they are out to win and will take every opportunity to take you to school'

The game's AI stands out in a way that you'll start to notice their behavioural patterns when racing. They don’t just play the role of seven other cars either; they are out to win and will take every opportunity to take you to school. I actually found some races in the career mode very challenging in the first few races of the game, and often came in second or third after some practise in the arcade mode. The AI will also try to avoid accidents, and if you have been spending the last few minutes in carnage mode they will remember and when they overlap you they will make sure to slow down and steer clear of you.

As for customising one's vehicle, this game is the enthusiast's dream. All the normal things are in the game with the ability to buy new wheels and tyres, change springs, or simply bolt on a supercharger or Turbo system. The three areas of upgrades are Engine and Power, Appearance and Aero, and Chassis and Drivetrain. Other things you will be able to do are change tyre pressure, modify your ride height, adjust camber settings, change window tint colour, fit body-kits, or even perform an engine conversion. Performing an engine conversion is a test of your workshop skills. The game allows you to transfer an engine from another car from the same manufacturer. Be careful, any upgrades to the old engine will not be brought across to the next engine and an engine conversion may not always be the right decision. In one particular car it was rated at 95kw, then after it’s engine conversion it rose to 475kw. It handled like a slippery fish, but was still interesting to see how the game approached this predicament. One annoying aspect I found here was with wheel selection, it would have been better sorted by manufacturer, as it is a little tedious scrolling through them to find the one you want. A larger selection of different wheel types would have been welcomed as well. Also don’t forget adding a bodykit will effect wind drag and can result in greater wind resistance, and possibly worse speeds than you intended. On an added note, any parts that you buy in the game you can also sell. I personally chose to keep my parts for modifying other cars so they would qualify for certain classes, but the option is there if you intend to use it or need the credits.

Changing the look of your car can keep you entertained for hours. Adding decals to your car, or painting it will really set your car apart from the rest, causing jealousy amongst your friends once they see your work of art. This can be done to any car you’re in, at any time, and is completely credit free which is a bonus. That means the look of your car can change basically as soon as you get it. Available logos include many top market brands like Momo, NOS, PIAA and Pirelli to name a few. There are also plain shapes and numbering that you can use to stamp your race number on the bonnet of the car. Some extra decals consist of a specific set for your car, for example, car manufacturer logos as well as Xbox and Forza Motorsport decals. If you have ever seen the Xbox cars driving around Sydney, then you could imagine what my Xbox Pontiac GTO looks like in Forza.

With the decals, the system allows one hundred layers per section of the car, and has the option to mirror the other side of the car in an instant so it doesn't look odd in relation. There are six areas to cover with decals - left and right side, the top of the car, front and rear bumpers, and your wing. When painting your vehicle you can choose to paint your side-mirrors, bonnet, and wing a separate colour from the body of the car, yet again a nice touch for those guys who represent the “All show – No Go” motto. That’s until you install the new fridge into the front of it.

The handling in the game is true to life. As mentioned previously, if you try to play this game throwing the car sideways into a corner like a true arcade racer, it will often end up in disaster. Depending on your upgrades and set-up, the game will take to the road just like a real car would. The car will react to your driving style, and driving a smooth line will decrease the likelihood of sliding around corners by applying adequate grip. Try to apply more force on the tyres and the tyres will begin to slide. One of the highlights of the game is the technology and innovative game design. You honestly feel that you are behind the wheel of a real car and the level of immersion is unbelievable. I could only imagine what it’s going to be like with the Fanatec Steering wheel.

Some of the things you will notice when driving are the gauges on the tachometer. You have a rev limiter, e-brake, and draft indicator. The draft indicator is useful, as it will let you know when you’re taking advantage of reduced air pressure, commonly referred to as slipstream in relation to the car in front of you. It will also illuminate when the car behind you is taking advantage of your slipstream. Other on screen displays consist of a damage state indicator that can be brought up using the white button on the controller, as well as the tyre heat indicator. Using the tyre heat indicator, I could look at specific situations and decide on how to tackle certain cornering manoeuvres. If the tyres were too cold I knew my grip would be less effective.

Replays also play an important role in the game, and a powerful tool for analysing race performance. While watching the replay you can analyse tyre load and grip, camber, speed, and differential problems, all shown if you choose to see it as the replay is in motion. This is definitely for the hardcore car enthusiast.

At the beginning of every race you are presented with the loading screen, while the game is preparing for the race it simulates qualifying based on your car's variable factors, so there's no need to race those qualifying races in Forza. Once the screen loads you are then presented with the option to start the race, change your entire set-up, or load the Drivatar. What is the Drivatar you ask?

'You can then get the Drivatar to race for you in races where you would like to sit back
and watch, which might come in handy for those long endurance races'

The Drivatar technology is a form of learning AI for Forza Motorsport. After a series of specially designed lessons, the game learns your style of racing, and emulates your driving patterns and techniques. I was very surprised at how this technology performed, it drove exactly like me. I was amazed at how well it emulated my driving habits. I even compared replays and found it to be watching almost the same race when I tested it with the same circuit. You can then get the Drivatar to race for you in races where you would like to sit back and watch, which might come in handy for those long endurance races. If you think your Drivatar is your driving saviour in Forza and doesn’t come with any disadvantages to you, then guess again. A fee to use your AI driver will be deducted after each and every race he competes in for you, sort of like a pay check. As your driving style improves you can go back and teach your Drivatar to improve with you by taking him through more Drivatar lessons. You also have the option to race your Drivatar, in a way challenging yourself, which resulted in suffering a loss on occasion.

The difficulty of the game set-up plays an important role as well. Increasing difficulty increases the possible earnings made after a race. Turning off such assistants as ABS, TCS, fuel, and tyre wear and the suggested racing line will add percentage gain to your race credits. Therefore the greater the difficulty the greater the rewards will be.

There is so much more to this game, but I’ve decided to leave it here so you can experience all the little details yourself come an early May release. I’ve had fun playing this and look forward to racing online in full rooms soon. I congratulate MGS on producing such a mind-blowing title and introducing new and innovative ideas with never before seen technology. A must buy for any car enthusiast, and a game you should show to those friends of yours who are convinced another racing simulator is the king, trust me I know, I own both of them and I know which one will be staying in the garage. I’ve even managed to let the game speak for itself, persuading a friend to go get himself an Xbox this weekend so he can be ready to own the king of racing simulators come May, Forza Motorsport.

GRAPHICS

What can I say, Forza has won the “Show 'n Shine” competition, the graphics are beautiful, the cars look like they just came off the show-floor, the damage looks great, and the road texture look more realistic then any car game I’ve played. Carbon fibre looks like carbon fibre and glass looks so clean that the poor insects won’t know what hit them. The frame rate in Forza is so solid and never drops, even at heated corners with eight cars competing for the perfect line. In smoke hazed situations the game continues to push the Xbox to the limits. Finer details are a nice touch with brake callipers heating up and decals being well presented. The lighting effects react to the car's paint jobs and reflections off buildings. I truly believe the potential of the Xbox has only recently been discovered and this is evident when playing games as beautiful as Forza.

SOUND

Junkie XL composed and produced the soundtrack for Forza Motorsport. The game features remixes of classic rock songs by ZZ Top, The Edgar Winter Group, and Black Sabbath to name a few. The in game music compliments the game so well and is ideal for Forza. If you’re not happy with the guitar instrumentals then you can load your own custom soundtracks.

Engine sounds, tyre screeching, and environmental sounds are all implemented extremely well. They can all be adjusted in the options so the game allows for the perfect sound for your racing experience. This game is well complimented by a surround sound Dolby set-up and sounds like birds, the wind blowing by at high speeds, and crowds chanting can be heard while racing around your favourite tracks. The cars also sound like the real thing and will change pitch based on engine upgrades to reflect any changes made.

CONCLUSION

What can I say, this is arguably the best driving simulator on the Xbox. A clear winner for racer of the year! As I stated before they have only really recently discovered the potential of the Xbox. If this is an indication in what to expect in the future then I’m drooling already. This will be one of the best racers ever to make its way on the current Xbox. People who aren't akin to racing games will find that Forza's 'driving line' can make it much more enjoyable than most other racing titles. You will see it changing colour to help you with braking into corners in relation to your speed, and adjusting to your driving style. Helping 'all' gamers whether new to the genre, or seasoned veterans becoming accustomed to the controls quickly.

'People who aren't akin to racing games will find that Forza's 'driving line'
can make it much more enjoyable than most other racing titles'

If they were to improve on anything in future versions of Forza, I would like to see the introduction of some more weather variables such as rain. Wind even plays a significant role in this game and I would have loved to see what they could have done with rain. Especially adding weather conditions to the multiplayer modes.

Things that could be done on the next generation would be to have the introduction of tyre walls being dispersed everywhere after a collision, and the inclusion of tyre marks from skidding left on the road surface for the duration of the race. Some next generation features that would be great to see is the inclusion of debris and sand being sprayed onto the tracks, which changes the road's surface and conditions. Another addition could be dust clouds that are swept up after a car has headed into the sandpit, playing a more impacting effect. Again, these are things that are more possible on a next generation system rather then the current console, hence why they don’t reflect Forza's score.

The introduction of a Rally mode to offer the complete package might be something that fans would like to see in the future. Saying that, this game was not designed to be a rally game, so it also has no bearing on the final score, just my own personal observation. The only other thing that seems to be very unclear at the moment is the availability of downloadable content. I couldn’t find the option in any menu, but the website clearly states there will be new cars and tracks in the future. This is something to look into after it is released this May, possibly an auto-update style of downloadable content.

This game offers many hours of fun for every car-loving gamer, and with the ability to race online, it should keep you satisfied for the many months to come.

by Luke (Hep)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FINAL THOUGHTS

Gameplay

Superb handling, responsive controls, and plenty to do for the car enthusiast. Just remember that this is a simulator, so expect the cars to respond accordingly. The game handles great online with the limited playtime I’ve had, and it has plenty of game modes to keep you coming back for more. The addition of the driving line, allows inexperienced racers to jump straight into the game. Never has a game offered to help you become a better overall gamer than Forza. With the aid of the driving line I managed to get my wife around the track in about 10 seconds slower than myself, which is available online too if you choose to use it. The controls work perfectly, and the level of immersion is unlike any other a racing game I have played before.

Audio/Visual

Eye candy at its best, this game wins the “Show n Shine” category without a doubt. No slowdown what so ever and it runs as smooth as a babies bottom. Forza also wins the “This Car Cranked All Show” sound category, the soundtrack is a great mix of classic rock and the addition of customised soundtracks and sound options make this a clear winner.

Multiplayer

Split screen, system link, and Xbox Live play are all in here. With the addition of an Xbox Live online career, the multiplayer should keep you and your friends active for some time. Car Club racing and team racing challenges will be a lot of fun online as well, which should create some interesting races for clans online. The addition of the online “Buy and Sell” is a great new feature that has yet to be seen and I can’t wait to experiment with it more.

Replay Value

The addition of racing on Xbox Live will keep you playing Forza for a long time. The cars are well balanced and each one has a purpose to be in the game. Unlike other simulators, you’re not flooded with a multitude of useless cars, just to boast a massive total. A huge career mode as well as the addition of taking it online is a huge bonus. Customising the look of your car will also keep you entertained for hours.

Copyright AussieXbox.com.au © 2004 | Contact Us | Privacy Policy

ThaMaskedGamer

04-29-2005, 09:31 AM

I'll have your head for this!!!!!

Actually its a good review, there are also two more readable reviews. The most critical review, gave the game an 8.5, but they gave GT4 a 7.5, and said that Forza is clearly better than GT4. Ironically, the most critical review was the smallest review and judging by the reviews comments the reviewer didn't spend as much time with the game as the others did who gave the game 100%. I think there are three 100% up at gamerankings, one 90% and one 85%. So far, none of the heavy hitters have yet to way in. I can predict IGN will give the game a 94% and Gamespot an 8.6, that seems to be the score Gamespot is handing out to great XBOX games nowaday. But, regardless of the reviews, I think we have the greatest simulation racer on consoles and I think console racers are beginning to finally eclipse PC racers, yes, this i what i've been waiting for.

I've already decided this will be my last XBOX game. I'll play this and SC:CT until the XBOX 360 comes out. So for me, this is what i've wanted most for XBOX, a car based simulation racer, online, collision, car parts and modification. It is fitting that this will be my last game on the current XBOX hardware, one freakin' hell of a way to go out. And if its true that XBOX 360 will be b/c, then i'll be playing Forza until 2006 when Forza 2 comes out.

theWacoKid

04-29-2005, 12:18 PM

Gadfly2317

04-29-2005, 06:17 PM

Cool. We can finally race cars on the Xbox. I'm so excited I . . . . . .. zzzzzzz

Horngreen

05-01-2005, 07:21 AM

Darwin

05-01-2005, 08:23 AM

I've already decided this will be my last XBOX game. I'll play this and SC:CT until the XBOX 360 comes out.

Then you'll be missing out on countless hours of playing Rainbow Six Lockdown. Not to mention the upcoming Blackhawk Down game with up to 50 players on Live. Juiced is supposed to be a very simulation-based racer and may be promising. Starcraft Ghost (if it ever gets released). Half Life 2 is supposed to come to Xbox.

I know you'll buckle and get at least one of these games. Saying that you won't buy anymore Xbox games after Forza ... hmmmmm?

And Triforce said he would never post on these boards again ... yet, he does.
And we though we would never see R. Moody after his banishment ... yet, he came back.

:-)

Darwin

05-01-2005, 08:35 AM

Sales! Forza is too late. We're entering the summer doldrums. MS had a chance when GT4 slipped its various ship dates, but they couldn't capitalize. A lot of GT4 ownes have already had their GT fix and aren't going to be interested in another GT style game. MS blew it. You have to bring games out in a timely manner. If you delay and delay, you pay the price. Hype dies down, people stop caring. For every Halo 2 that hits there are dozens of games that sink without even being noticed.

What are you talking about? Nobody blew anything. Forza was delayed in order to make the game better, as was GT4 (yes, it was delayed as well, remember?) ... as was GT3 (remember that LOOOONG delay?). The super-long GT3 delay didn't seem to hamper it's sales. The ultra-long delays of games like Halo 2 and Diablo 2 certainly didn't hamper their sales. I remember playing the Forza demo, and was like, "the physics are cool but this is almost bare-bones racing". But the reviews are saying the final version is chocked-full of stuff. Looks like the delay has resulted in a much better Forza game.

"Summer doldrums" ??? As if suddenly people run out of money in the summer and can't purchase games. In fact, don't students get more free time in the summer and can thus spend more time gaming. Doldrums??? What is a duldrum anyway?

I've played GT4 and have grown tired of it. I've already collected abaout 40 or so cars. There's not much more to interest me in completing the game because the AI is getting on my nerves. And, with no online play ... well, you just cannot get the kind of replay value that an online game can have. I've done probably 200+ hours each of Toca 2 and MotoGP2 on Live. There is no way you can do this with a single player racing game with only 6 cars per race and bad AI.

People who like racing games are not going to be tired-out of racing after playing GT4. If anything, they will be wanting a better racing experience ... just like I am. I can almost guaruntee that if Forza is everything the reviews say it is, then I will probably never touch GT4 again. Why would I?

The only people who couldn't seem "to capitalize" was Polyphony when they decided to drop online play and give us worse (yes, worse) AI than GT3. They were the ones that shot themselves in the foot, not MS.

Glockstar

05-01-2005, 10:11 AM

Except in the one category that counts the most. Sales!

Omg... sales is more important than gameplay; graphics; sound; physics; AI; multiplayer; and replay value? Sales?!

What are you doing here? I mean, really. You don't like videogames. You're bitter about everything that happens in the industry. So again, why do you come here? Why do you come to this VideoGameReview site? Seriously. It's a Videogame review site. Not a videogame release-date review site. Not a videogame sales-tracker review site.

What is the purpose of your posting? You got rid of your GameCube. You got rid of your Xbox. You're thinking about getting rid of your PS2...

Gawd, everybody gets it but you: it's time to find another hobby.

ThaMaskedGamer

05-01-2005, 01:21 PM

Then you'll be missing out on countless hours of playing Rainbow Six Lockdown. Not to mention the upcoming Blackhawk Down game with up to 50 players on Live. Juiced is supposed to be a very simulation-based racer and may be promising. Starcraft Ghost (if it ever gets released). Half Life 2 is supposed to come to Xbox.

I know you'll buckle and get at least one of these games. Saying that you won't buy anymore Xbox games after Forza ... hmmmmm?

And Triforce said he would never post on these boards again ... yet, he does.
And we though we would never see R. Moody after his banishment ... yet, he came back.

:-)

I can say for certain I will be getting Half-life 2. Half-life was my favorite single player fps before Halo, and I don't want to play the PC version. I read the recent preview from IGN who played some of the game, according to Valve they are actually making improvements over the PC version, not just in sound, but also in things like lighting and effects. Yep, believe it or not, Valve said because XBOX is a closed system they are able to make these improvements. They are doing some interesting things, like streaming levels to handle the large environments.

I'm saying I'll get XBOX 360 based on the rumors of the system specs. If the rumors turn out to be true, which I think at this point everything we've been hearing lately is true, except maybe the pricing, anyway, if the pricing is reasonable then I'm liking the system. And, here is the kicker, if the system is backward compatiable with the hardrive, even though I don't care about the feature, i'll take advantage of it.

If the system is b/c i'll trade in both of my XBOXes, I don't see the point of keeping one. If the system is not backward compatiable i'll trade in one of my XBOXes and keep another one to play Forza and SC:CT and Half-life2.

The only game that is going to pain me to miss is Rainbow 6 Lockdown. But, dammit they pushed the game back to October, that's when 360 launches and i'll be busy with Elder Scrolls Oblivion, Perfect Dark and of course Forza and possibly Half-life2, so i'll likely miss Rainbow 6 Lockdown. But, i've skipped a few rpgs for shooters, this time I will not be passing up Elder Scrolls Ob. What's your plans gonna be? You know you are gonna be there for launch if the system and games are hot.

Darwin

05-01-2005, 03:35 PM

. What's your plans gonna be? You know you are gonna be there for launch if the system and games are hot.

I'm gonna watch the MTV special and then I'll probably know for certain. But, if everything checks out, I will preordering Xbox360 the first chance that EBgames offers the preorders. The main reason is because of the new Elderscrolls game.

But ... I pretty much get any of the home consoles these days. Remember that I got Xbox and Gamecube at launch, even though I have used my Xbox much more than the cube. I suspect that I will also preorder PS3 as well as the new Revolution (unless Nintendo has absolutely nothing to offer). I'm the kind of gamer who wants to own all the home consoles, regardless of how many games I get for each. Even if I only get to play one or two memorable games on a console, those are still one or two MORE games that I got to play. I have never regretted buying a GC, despite my small library of games. Now, I don't consider myself to be an open-minded gamer ... the Xbox is clearly the best of my home consoles, and I don't hide that fact. It is possible to own all the consoles, and still be an Xbot. How do people think I became an Xbot? I have an accurate means of comparison since I have played all the consoles.

As far as the DS and PSP, I skipped those because I don't portable game much. I only bought my Gameboy Advance-SP so I could have something to play when on vacation.

Rogue Bounty Hunter

05-02-2005, 06:52 AM

I'm gonna watch the MTV special and then I'll probably know for certain. But, if everything checks out, I will preordering Xbox360 the first chance that EBgames offers the preorders. The main reason is because of the new Elderscrolls game.

Same here, almost. The MTV special will definitely help decide if/when I will pre-order the Next Xbox (still refuse to call it 360). More than likely, it will be sometime in early to mid 2006 when I get one, since I'm still looking forward to some games coming out late this year for the current systems. Then again, if Oblivion turns out to be a great game, who knows what I may do on impulse.

Will the MTV special show a few games or just focus on the system itself?

Horngreen

05-05-2005, 04:32 PM

I thought about being an A-hole (again) and starting a whole new thread for this but I won't. I give you the Forza review roundup.

1UP (100)
3DAvenue (90)
DailyGame (89)
EGM (98)
GameBiz (100)
GamePro (100)
GameSpot (92)
GameSpy (90)
GameZone (95)
Games Domain (90)
IGN (95)
Maxim Online (100)
MS Xbox World (90)
Next Level Gaming (97)
PALGN (85)
Stuff (90)
Team Xbox (98)
Total Video Games (90)
Xbox Evolved (100)

Average: (95) - compare to GT4 (89)

Some will say "zzzz another driving game" and they say that because they suck at them. Still others will say "who is going to bother customizing virtual cars with engine part upgrades and a slew of external spoilers, stickers and paint?" and they would be idiots. Still others will point out that it looks like GT4 won in the graphics department (although the PS2 is not actually creating those during gameplay it seems). So there you have it, What does the PS2 now have that I cannot get on my Xbox?

slade

05-05-2005, 05:17 PM

What does the PS2 now have that I cannot get on my Xbox?

A six year life cycle.

BA DA DA DUM!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll be here all week folks.

T.Tashi

05-05-2005, 08:02 PM

I thought Grand Turismo had already been dethroned by the other 3 dozen racers on Xbox.:rolleyes:

joquito

05-05-2005, 08:14 PM

I thought Grand Turismo had already been dethroned by the other 3 dozen racers on Xbox.:rolleyes:

With a game like TOCA, you are correct but some naysayers wanted reviews to back it up so Forza provides that.

joquito

05-05-2005, 08:19 PM

A six year life cycle.

BA DA DA DUM!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll be here all week folks.

Dude the current console technology is old. Its about time for new consoles. Most people don't even keep their cars for 6 years. Given the hype for $299 items like the PSP and IPOD, money clearly isn't the issue.

Zilla Man

05-05-2005, 08:24 PM

I thought about being an A-hole (again)...

Why stop now? You've been doing such a good job ever since you've joined VGR! :p

What does the PS2 now have that I cannot get on my Xbox?

Umm, a better looking racing game apparently. From the IGN review:

"Forza is a good but not a great-looking game. The in-game graphics are also good, but not great. Compared to a number of racers, specifically GT4, Forza holds up pretty well, but direct comparisons to that lowly PS2 game (how dare I!) prove a little disappointing. "

Looks like the Xbox got schooled by a game on a system that's two years older and twice as weak. ROTHFLMAO!

And let me add that with all the delays in this game as well as the aforementioned power of the Xbox, there's no excuse for Forza not looking at least twice as good as GT4! There simply isn't one. Especially when you consider the vast # of car models in GT4 compared to Forza.

Actually there is an excuse - lazy/inept programming.

Now watch as all the Xbots try to say that graphics don't really count as they scramble to try and put down GT4's AI. :D

By the time the next Forza is released on the 360, GT5 will be blowing it away on PS3.

Horngreen

05-05-2005, 08:54 PM

Zilla such a pathetic post you've left. the PS2 couldn't even run the physics engine that Forza is packing. All you PS2 punks have always said "it's about gameplay" but since crappy ole GT4 doesn't have that it "all about graphics now." Hows that online play in GT4? Are you enjoying the Ferraris and Porches which I don't think it has. How about the drivers only showing up in convertibles in GT4 is that cool? I guess these reviews are not important now that you've lost eh? I knew this would piss you all off. GT4 is no longer king but you still have Killzone to knock Halo out with!

Darwin

05-05-2005, 09:14 PM

"Forza is a good but not a great-looking game. The in-game graphics are also good, but not great. Compared to a number of racers, specifically GT4, Forza holds up pretty well, but direct comparisons to that lowly PS2 game (how dare I!) prove a little disappointing. "

Looks like the Xbox got schooled by a game on a system that's two years older and twice as weak. ROTHFLMAO!

And let me add that with all the delays in this game as well as the aforementioned power of the Xbox, there's no excuse for Forza not looking at least twice as good as GT4! There simply isn't one. Especially when you consider the vast # of car models in GT4 compared to Forza.

Putting aside all other aspects of the two games and looking at only the graphics ... (I may get 40 lashes from the other Xbots for admitting this) ... but Gran Turismo 4 looks a lot better than Forza. This IGN reviewer is actually being nice to Forza. I've played GT4 in the 1080i mode and it absolutely kills the graphics of Forza .... seriously. And I might as well add that Toca 2 looks better than Forza.

It's actually taking me a bit-of getting used to. My very first impressions of Forza's graphics were (and these words came out of my mouth), "Damn, this is ugly". But graphics are always relative. If you play a lower-detailed game long enough, your eyes adjust to it and you don't notice the loss of details. It's only when you first start playing it.

It is interesting to see a first party Xbox game sacrifice graphics in favor of gameplay, replay value, and depth.

Darwin

05-05-2005, 09:23 PM

Zilla such a pathetic post you've left. the PS2 couldn't even run the physics engine that Forza is packing.

Sorry. Even though I am an Xbot through and through, I am gonna have to challenge this statement. The physics in GT4 are spot-on, perhaps even better than Forza. The GT4 physics engine is very deep. Trust me, I've done about 40 hours of the game. Take any reasonably-powered car in GT4, put simulation tires on it, turn off your driver assists, use the logitech wheel, and then you will feel what TRUE simulation is.

If you want to attack GT4, do it where it is weakest: the poor AI, unballanced races, lack of damage, and lack of online play. But in the physics and graphics department, GT4 is pretty much the gold standard.

Superjoint Ritual

05-05-2005, 09:30 PM

Glockstar

05-05-2005, 09:40 PM

Sorry. Even though I am an Xbot through and through, I am gonna have to challenge this statement. The physics in GT4 are spot-on, perhaps even better than Forza. The GT4 physics engine is very deep. Trust me, I've done about 40 hours of the game. Take any reasonably-powered car in GT4, put simulation tires on it, turn off your driver assists, use the logitech wheel, and then you will feel what TRUE simulation is.

If you want to attack GT4, do it where it is weakest: the poor AI, unballanced races, lack of damage, and lack of online play. But in the physics and graphics department, GT4 is pretty much the gold standard.

Well, I alone can't save you from the whipping that you're about to get... :p ...but I can say that I, for one, appreciate your honesty and candor. Especially with regards to the graphics.

However... with regards to the physics, don't you think that you should wait until you've put about 40 hours into Forza before you compare the two games?

slade

05-06-2005, 08:31 AM

Dude the current console technology is old. Its about time for new consoles. Most people don't even keep their cars for 6 years. Given the hype for $299 items like the PSP and IPOD, money clearly isn't the issue.

You're comparing portable gaming and an MP3 player to a console. Furthermore, I'd dispute your first sentence. There are still games coming out with enough graphical effects to wow people. Also, MS releasing X-box 2 early basically puts a knife through that comparative value argument people like to throw around such as, 'X-box is more bang for your buck because of the harddrive and stuff.' With two years off its life cycle, that is yet another argument MS has lost to Sony.

thelastword

05-06-2005, 12:02 PM

Sorry. Even though I am an Xbot through and through, I am gonna have to challenge this statement. The physics in GT4 are spot-on, perhaps even better than Forza. The GT4 physics engine is very deep. Trust me, I've done about 40 hours of the game. Take any reasonably-powered car in GT4, put simulation tires on it, turn off your driver assists, use the logitech wheel, and then you will feel what TRUE simulation is.

If you want to attack GT4, do it where it is weakest: the poor AI, unballanced races, lack of damage, and lack of online play. But in the physics and graphics department, GT4 is pretty much the gold standard.
Your honesty here is admirable, many xbots should take a page from your book. Anyhoos, It seems that forza is getting some solid reviews across the board, I think mainly due to it's online component and it's fiercer Ai, however what about it's gameplay balance? I've been hearing alot from forza players that the top cars are really easy to come by, and that the sense of speed is not all that great compared to GT. It's interesting that you commented about the physics because I just read from a couple of posters on the gamefaqs forum that forza felt a bit arcadelike and that controlling the cars was more or less a cakewalk.

joquito

05-06-2005, 05:28 PM

You're comparing portable gaming and an MP3 player to a console. Furthermore, I'd dispute your first sentence. There are still games coming out with enough graphical effects to wow people. Also, MS releasing X-box 2 early basically puts a knife through that comparative value argument people like to throw around such as, 'X-box is more bang for your buck because of the harddrive and stuff.' With two years off its life cycle, that is yet another argument MS has lost to Sony.

I don't think anyone can make a sound arguement that the next gen consoles won't be a huge improvement over current consoles. Also why would I want to spend another $300+ on games for an aging console when I could come of age with current technology. The last console game to," WOW" me graphically was Ninja Gaiden. When there's a chance to play games that look as good as current PC games and consistently play online with 30+ people, you shouldn't boast in basking in another year of PS2 software.

T.Tashi

05-06-2005, 06:24 PM

T.Tashi

05-06-2005, 06:45 PM

What's more ironic than anything, is seeing people argue over, quite possibly, the most boring genre of gaming ever devised.

" Whewww... My games goes in circles better than your game. "

" Yeah, well my game has 5000 cars that you can drive around in cirlces with ! "

" Yeah... Well my game has the best physics and AI so it delivers a more realistic representation of what it would really be like to drive around in circles... "

Hahah... I swear, I have a cousin who buy's this GT crap everytime it's released. It's the same f*cking thing with better graphics and more cars. GT is like the Madden of the racing genre. And the sad thing is, everyone tries to make a game EXACTELY like GT.

I guess I just don't get it. :cool:
I think you have to be into race car performance to appreciate it. Turbos, supercharger engines, how you weight the car, how this effects acceleration out of a curve and your drift, timing your shifting... typically you have to be into that stuff to appreciate a sim. Of course this can make for a steep learning curve and many just opt for the arcade style racers.

Fivespot

05-06-2005, 09:19 PM

slade

05-07-2005, 03:36 AM

I don't think anyone can make a sound arguement that the next gen consoles won't be a huge improvement over current consoles. Also why would I want to spend another $300+ on games for an aging console when I could come of age with current technology. The last console game to," WOW" me graphically was Ninja Gaiden. When there's a chance to play games that look as good as current PC games and consistently play online with 30+ people, you shouldn't boast in basking in another year of PS2 software.

Heck, I'll make that argument because other then graphics, game design isn't going to improve a whole heck of a lot and even if it does, it won't be overnight. I said this in another thread; the transition from last gen to this gen meant a lot more because 3d was just starting out in the 32 bit era. There were games that looked good and then there were games with stable framerates and it was a rare game that managed to fuse the two elements together. It got a lot better at the end of the generation but then, we had the beginning of this gen in which games both looked good and had stable framerates. The next gen is going to have to diffrentiate itself in some other way and graphics alone are not going to do it for me.

thelastword

05-07-2005, 06:58 AM

ThaMaskedGamer

05-07-2005, 07:06 AM

Your honesty here is admirable, many xbots should take a page from your book. Anyhoos, It seems that forza is getting some solid reviews across the board, I think mainly due to it's online component and it's fiercer Ai, however what about it's gameplay balance? I've been hearing alot from forza players that the top cars are really easy to come by, and that the sense of speed is not all that great compared to GT. It's interesting that you commented about the physics because I just read from a couple of posters on the gamefaqs forum that forza felt a bit arcadelike and that controlling the cars was more or less a cakewalk.

I have to respectfully disagree with both you and Methadone. I've read the Popular Science article about Forza, and i've read all the reviews which compare the two games, and I haven't seen one that said GT4 had better physics. Forza does way more physics calculations its over 4 times more than GT4. The thing is, most players are just beginning in the game. The reviewers have played most of the game. Most people are driving with assists on, using auto transmissions, and using a racing line guide. Turn all that stuff off. Get a wheel and see the difference. Now, people say these cars are floaty. True, they are. And guess what, if you buy a production car off the lot, and race it on a track, it will be floaty. People haven't had the time to modify these cars and turn and increase their performance. When ever you get a car in Forza, they are all tuned the same. The tire pressure is 26psi, the brakes and everything is set right in the middle. People go race these cars and float all over, with assists on. You have to turn assists off, modify the car and then you will see the car perform like a machine. Perfect example, I won a Toyota MR2, an old one. Raced it two days ago online and it was fish tailing and sliding uncontrollably. Yesterday I made some modifications, and tuned it up, I was able to shave 8 seconds off my lap time at Road Atlanta, while the car is still squirrely, it much tighter and controllable. I did the same thing with my Acura NSX. I was racing the car and I thought this thing is a piece of crap. Then I upgraded it and still couldn't get it to control properly. But then I sold back my engine upgrade, left the stock engine, and worked on the handling. I bought adjustable front and rear wings, and increased the downforce, took it to road atlanta and it hugs the road like a Koala bear. And I almost gave up on the car.

Here's the thing, there are sooooo many mods, and ways to tune your car in Forza, only a professional who knows about camber, dampening, suspension setups etc, will be able to master these cars. People aren't taking that into account. All I can do at this point is adjust downforce, adjust my gears, modify my tire pressure, reduce my height, stiffen my springs, etc. All the other stuff is scary and I have no idea about how to modify it.

We are only scratching the surface of this game.

thelastword

05-07-2005, 07:24 AM

I've seen some posts saying that Forza doesn't have good graphics but I disagree.

GT4 certainly looks better and its amazing how Polyphony can really push the PS2 way beyond what most others have been able to do. However Forza is still a good looking game. In HD it looks fantastic especially with the realistic damage effects.

And the racing is not floaty or arcadey, maybe moreso than GT4 but I haven't played GT4 so I wouldn't know. Its certainly sim racing and Microsoft spent good time developing this title.

Forza shouldn't be written off so quickly. Maybe some should at least give it a try before passing it off as a second-rate GT4. I won't say GT4 is a bad game for the same reason.
Well nobody has really dismissed forza on the outright, it just does'nt appear to be the GT killer that some may have hoped it would be. Physics and graphics wise GT is still king, Forza appears to have excelled in ai and muliplayer(online). It seems though that many reviewers at the end of this console life-cycle do generate boners for online, so I guess it's a must have feature next gen. That's not too bad really because Polyphony Digital will claim superiority in all features come GT5, total obliteration is expected really.

Having said that, I'm still going to get Forza, but I had to give a quality developer it's props.:)

yacobschlomo

05-07-2005, 10:25 AM

Well nobody has really dismissed forza on the outright, it just does'nt appear to be the GT killer that some may have hoped it would be. Physics and graphics wise GT is still king, Forza appears to have excelled in ai and muliplayer(online). It seems though that many reviewers at the end of this console life-cycle do generate boners for online, so I guess it's a must have feature next gen. That's not too bad really because Polyphony Digital will claim superiority in all features come GT5, total obliteration is expected really.

Having said that, I'm still going to get Forza, but I had to give a quality developer it's props.:)

Graphics wise, I rather have a game with good anti-aliasing and no flickering. Forza beats out GT4 in this regards. I also don't like the fake 1080i in GT4 that much. It's just an upconverted 480p image that leaves black bars on all sides of the screen on my TV. GT4 does give a better sense of speed though. Maybe that was the trade-off Polyphony Digital decided to make.

I think Forza has proven itself to be a better racing game than GT4 (just like TOCA 2 has already done). Personally, I can't say if it's a better videogame because I haven't played enough of it yet, but here are some reviewers who seem to think that Forza is better than GT4 (I haven't seen a review that states outright, that GT4 is the better game).

"Actually, even without a high level of graphics pleasure, Forza is still better than Gran Turismo 4. Why? How about incredible online play, solid AI and a realistic damage model? That's in addition to hundreds of cars, impeccable control and a career mode deep enough to rival your local bottomless well. In short, racing fans who bought a PS2 just for the GT series should think long and hard about trading it in for an Xbox and a copy of Forza Motorsport." - Gamespy

"Forza has upped the bar on sim racing. This is by far the most realistic console racer ever made, and it's hands-down the best racing game on Xbox." - 1UP

"Better than Gran Turismo 4. I figured I'd write that when I reviewed Gran Turismo 5 one day, but this is Forza Motorsport, Microsoft's homage to the greatest driving sim around." - EGM

"Forza is easily the best driving game ever made. Loyal GT4 fans ought to strap into the seat of this hot rod and take it for a spin--you won't look back. " Gamepro

"Forza is a strikingly deep racing sim that delivers on most of the areas where Gran Turismo 4 faltered and then some. For driving enthusiasts with an Xbox, this is definitely the game to check out." - Gamezone

"Realistic in almost every fashion, and gameplay so deep you don't even know where it all comes from! Quite simply, this looks like the Gran Turismo killer everyone's been waiting for" - Next Level Gaming

With regards to the physics? Well, I think I'll believe the opinion of a couple of real life Le Mans race car drivers. Afterall, they are some of the only people that can truly vouch for the realism of the physics.

T.Tashi

05-07-2005, 10:55 AM

I have to respectfully disagree with both you and Methadone. I've read the Popular Science article about Forza, and i've read all the reviews which compare the two games, and I haven't seen one that said GT4 had better physics. Forza does way more physics calculations its over 4 times more than GT4. The thing is, most players are just beginning in the game. The reviewers have played most of the game. Most people are driving with assists on, using auto transmissions, and using a racing line guide. Turn all that stuff off. Get a wheel and see the difference. Now, people say these cars are floaty. True, they are. And guess what, if you buy a production car off the lot, and race it on a track, it will be floaty. People haven't had the time to modify these cars and turn and increase their performance. When ever you get a car in Forza, they are all tuned the same. The tire pressure is 26psi, the brakes and everything is set right in the middle. People go race these cars and float all over, with assists on. You have to turn assists off, modify the car and then you will see the car perform like a machine. Perfect example, I won a Toyota MR2, an old one. Raced it two days ago online and it was fish tailing and sliding uncontrollably. Yesterday I made some modifications, and tuned it up, I was able to shave 8 seconds off my lap time at Road Atlanta, while the car is still squirrely, it much tighter and controllable. I did the same thing with my Acura NSX. I was racing the car and I thought this thing is a piece of crap. Then I upgraded it and still couldn't get it to control properly. But then I sold back my engine upgrade, left the stock engine, and worked on the handling. I bought adjustable front and rear wings, and increased the downforce, took it to road atlanta and it hugs the road like a Koala bear. And I almost gave up on the car.

Here's the thing, there are sooooo many mods, and ways to tune your car in Forza, only a professional who knows about camber, dampening, suspension setups etc, will be able to master these cars. People aren't taking that into account. All I can do at this point is adjust downforce, adjust my gears, modify my tire pressure, reduce my height, stiffen my springs, etc. All the other stuff is scary and I have no idea about how to modify it.

We are only scratching the surface of this game.
Good points. As l said before you have to be really into car performance to appreciate it. I see my friends do all that stuff in GT and I'm like, wake me up when you start racing. While I like the genre and the simulations, racing requires such a single minded concentration, one mistake and winning or qualifying is shot to hell. So I'm not that deep into it. Someone did ask me a while back about joining a league and competing for cash ( dunno if that's actually going on yet) but I honestly don't think I would like training hours a day just to compete. I would burn out on it really fast... no pun intended.

T.Tashi

05-07-2005, 10:58 AM

Well I have this Gt Vs Forza video based on Laguna Seca, I just looked at it again since you mentioned it and realized that the sky is not as pronounced on the forza side as on Gt like you said, it's funny though, cause forza looks darker in my video than gt. The most noticeable thing to me in this video, was that the weight transfer looked right and compact in Gt whilst Forza's looked a bit paper-light to me. As for the graphics, it appears that most agree that GT's are superior.

Being the racing fan that I am, I will want to test forza for myself, So I'll be getting it soon enough to test it's worth.
Hmm... it could be the monitors. Without some kind of standard calibration it could look different on different screens.

T.Tashi

05-07-2005, 10:59 AM

Heck, I'll make that argument because other then graphics, game design isn't going to improve a whole heck of a lot and even if it does, it won't be overnight. I said this in another thread; the transition from last gen to this gen meant a lot more because 3d was just starting out in the 32 bit era. There were games that looked good and then there were games with stable framerates and it was a rare game that managed to fuse the two elements together. It got a lot better at the end of the generation but then, we had the beginning of this gen in which games both looked good and had stable framerates. The next gen is going to have to diffrentiate itself in some other way and graphics alone are not going to do it for me.
Man you are so right it is almost sad. For every 50 games you might see one that really tries to do something different.

BaneNWN

05-07-2005, 11:22 AM

I can say for certain I will be getting Half-life 2. Half-life was my favorite single player fps before Halo, and I don't want to play the PC version. I read the recent preview from IGN who played some of the game, according to Valve they are actually making improvements over the PC version, not just in sound, but also in things like lighting and effects. Yep, believe it or not, Valve said because XBOX is a closed system they are able to make these improvements. They are doing some interesting things, like streaming levels to handle the large environments.

.

I hate to burst your bubble but i have yet to see a pc game converted to the console where the console game actually turned out better.I suggest if you want the full experience of HL 2 buy the pc version.The origional HL was a joke on the console even.

Ofcourse valves going to talk the console version up to make the money anyone should know that

thelastword

05-07-2005, 01:26 PM

Graphics wise, I rather have a game with good anti-aliasing and no flickering. Forza beats out GT4 in this regards. I also don't like the fake 1080i in GT4 that much. It's just an upconverted 480p image that leaves black bars on all sides of the screen on my TV. GT4 does give a better sense of speed though. Maybe that was the trade-off Polyphony Digital decided to make.

I think Forza has proven itself to be a better racing game than GT4 (just like TOCA 2 has already done). Personally, I can't say if it's a better videogame because I haven't played enough of it yet, but here are some reviewers who seem to think that Forza is better than GT4 (I haven't seen a review that states outright, that GT4 is the better game).

"Actually, even without a high level of graphics pleasure, Forza is still better than Gran Turismo 4. Why? How about incredible online play, solid AI and a realistic damage model? That's in addition to hundreds of cars, impeccable control and a career mode deep enough to rival your local bottomless well. In short, racing fans who bought a PS2 just for the GT series should think long and hard about trading it in for an Xbox and a copy of Forza Motorsport." - Gamespy

"Forza has upped the bar on sim racing. This is by far the most realistic console racer ever made, and it's hands-down the best racing game on Xbox." - 1UP

"Better than Gran Turismo 4. I figured I'd write that when I reviewed Gran Turismo 5 one day, but this is Forza Motorsport, Microsoft's homage to the greatest driving sim around." - EGM

"Forza is easily the best driving game ever made. Loyal GT4 fans ought to strap into the seat of this hot rod and take it for a spin--you won't look back. " Gamepro

"Forza is a strikingly deep racing sim that delivers on most of the areas where Gran Turismo 4 faltered and then some. For driving enthusiasts with an Xbox, this is definitely the game to check out." - Gamezone

"Realistic in almost every fashion, and gameplay so deep you don't even know where it all comes from! Quite simply, this looks like the Gran Turismo killer everyone's been waiting for" - Next Level Gaming

With regards to the physics? Well, I think I'll believe the opinion of a couple of real life Le Mans race car drivers. Afterall, they are some of the only people that can truly vouch for the realism of the physics.
I did mention earlier that forza was getting great reviews by the gaming press, but In my latter estimation I was trying to get a feel as to what the true racing gamers felt with no biases mixed in of course.

In as much as you would like to belittle racing gamers by saying that the professionals would give a more noteworthy opinion on physics, don't forget that these are still games and if I put in the hours on both games, I believe I should be able to give solid opinions about them, perhaps even more so than professional racers who did'nt spend the time.

yacobschlomo

05-07-2005, 02:39 PM

In as much as you would like to belittle racing gamers by saying that the professionals would give a more noteworthy opinion on physics, don't forget that these are still games and if I put in the hours on both games, I believe I should be able to give solid opinions about them, perhaps even more so than professional racers who did'nt spend the time.

I'm not belittling any gamers. I'm merely stating a fact. These guys stated that the physics of Forza was very accurate. They've driven an actual race car and should know more about the accuracy of the physics that some schmo (myself included) who has never been in a race car. These guys may have not tried GT4. Therefore, GT4 could be every bit as accurate as Forza is physics wise. We don't know. Which also why you can't say that GT4 is better in the physics department than Forza. Afterall, you haven't even tried the game for yourself yet, have you? How have you come to the conclusion that GT4 has better physics than Forza?

Good AI, IMO, is the most important aspect of a racing game. This is exactly the reason why I couldn't really get into GT4. I had already put in a significant amount of time into GT3. I was looking for improved AI in GT4, but was disappointed to find that they didn't improve on it. So in essence, GT4 was basically the same game as GT3 for me. Leaving me without much of a reason to play it.

Glockstar

05-07-2005, 03:31 PM

I hate to burst your bubble but i have yet to see a pc game converted to the console where the console game actually turned out better.I suggest if you want the full experience of HL 2 buy the pc version.The origional HL was a joke on the console even.

Oh yeah? How's that?

GameSpot says the port was "complete and faithful", and adds that "its transition to the PlayStation 2 is a successful one".

IGN says, "Sierra's Half-Life for PS2 is indeed a game worth owning, not just because of its timelessly good gameplay, but because developer Gearbox (which created the add-on pack Half-Life: Opposing Forces) went out of its way to stuff more modes of play and extras than any of the PC games have ever seen. For those of you who haven't played Half-Life on the PC, Gearbox's PS2 version brings back the original game in true form to Sony's system..."

These two also scored the P2 game an 8.8 and a 9.1, respectively.

But you're telling me that it was a joke? Hmph.

Go ahead, tell us - tell me - why. Please. Seriously. I recently started up the first Half-Life on my PC, but was unable to continue with it. Well, this is one of those instances where I definitely would like to finish what I start, as I rather liked what little I saw; I'm thinking about picking up the PS2 version. Especially now, now that I've heard that the Xbox - the current Xbox - is getting Half-Life 2 sometime this fall. (GameStop currently shows 9/1.) I prefer to get involved in stories from their beginning, you know? Although... Marc Laidlaw, the story-writer for Valve on the Half-Life games, says that gamers needn't worry about not getting anything, if they have not played the first game.

.
...i have yet to see a pc game converted to the console where the console game actually turned out better.

I have. Ultimate Doom (on the recently released Doom 3 LCE for the Xbox). At least - at last - I can finally play the game!

BaneNWN

05-07-2005, 04:14 PM

You know Glock they always tell you when they port games from the pc to another console to expect it to be better.Its a sales pitch to get console owners to buy the game.Please go look at the halflife community and then tell me ps 2 has more mods then the pc.Do you realize there are literally thousands of mods for the pc version??how many are there for the ps version??probably a handful at best.

Theres a reason pc,s cost over a grand and ps2 and xbox cost only 150$.Ive played many ported console to pc games and everyone was much better on the pc although it still had that console feel to it.GTA 3,Vicecity,need for speed underground 2,splintercell,ghost recon.You name the converted games ive played it and i can say wth a straight face there all better on the pc.

PC games also get rated harshley for the fact that we expect much more out of them.You will see more 10 scores for the consoles then you will for the PC.Do you really think that resident evil 4 would get a 10 if it was a pc game??uhh no probably a 7.5- 8.Fact is you want survival horror play a game like system shock2 for the pc which is 6 or 7 years old and is still much better then RE 4.

Im not downing the consoles as i own an Xbox and a ps 2 but even i will admitt pc games are just way more superior in every way

Mochan

05-08-2005, 06:39 AM

Mochan

05-08-2005, 07:04 AM

IGN says, "Sierra's Half-Life for PS2 is indeed a game worth owning, not just because of its timelessly good gameplay, but because developer Gearbox (which created the add-on pack Half-Life: Opposing Forces) went out of its way to stuff more modes of play and extras than any of the PC games have ever seen. For those of you who haven't played Half-Life on the PC, Gearbox's PS2 version brings back the original game in true form to Sony's system..."

Does it have Counterstrike? Team Fortress? They Hunger? Etc. Etc? I thought not. Stop listening to what websites who were probably paid to put in a good word, and take a look at the versions of the game yourself. PC version of Half Life is superior, and I'm not just talking about mouse vs. gamepad here.

Of course Gearbox would blatantly lie to say it's better because they want to sell the game. Anyone who would honestly believe the PS2 version has more playmodes than the PC version must be high on crack. Though granted they're clearly just talking about "official" features and not added content.

Aside from all the extra content you get from mods and such, the PC version also runs like lightning with all they eyecandy turned on even on the most modest budget machine today. That's at 4x the resolution of the PS2, with 6x AA and 16x AF.

Marc Laidlaw, the story-writer for Valve on the Half-Life games, says that gamers needn't worry about not getting anything, if they have not played the first game.

And actually if you could skip all the story scenes you wouldn't be missing anything either. That's my euphemistic way of saying, "Story? What story?!"

I have. Ultimate Doom (on the recently released Doom 3 LCE for the Xbox).

I've not actually played Doom 3 on the XBox but I've seen the screenshots. I'm like, WTF did they do to the game?! Everything's so bright! The res was so low, and apparently with no AA, the jaggies were making me bleed. The flashlight effect was completely different, not that I needed to see it because everything was so bright. All the shadows that made the game were completely gone, I could only see like 1 or 2 shadows per screenshot at most, whereas the PC version had silhouettes galore.

Try playing the PC version on a decent PC (even mine is good enough) and you'll see how much better it is.

No wait... by Ultimate Doom you meant Doom 1 and 2. Ah okay, that makes more sense now.

Anyway what Bane said is generally true. PC Games will be better than a console port of the same game. The converse is usually true as well, though. Console games ported to the PC have great potential to suck -- examples off hand are FF8 and Grandia 2. Oh, and Morrowind. Can't forget Morrowind.

Gadfly2317

05-08-2005, 08:20 AM

Theres a reason pc,s cost over a grand and ps2 and xbox cost only 150$.Ive played many ported console to pc games and everyone was much better on the pc although it still had that console feel to it.GTA 3,Vicecity,need for speed underground 2,splintercell,ghost recon.You name the converted games ive played it and i can say wth a straight face there all better on the pc.

How about the Halo conversion?

It looked a little better, but I'll be damned if even with a 2.4 ghz system and a 256mb graphics card if I could get this thing to stop having frame-rate problems. Liked playing it with kb/mouse, but that's one example of sloppy ass programming. . . I mean, its a pretty basic first gen console game from 2001. About the only way it was better was load times.

Vice City on the other hand, couldn't agree more. PC version was great. Even found driving and stunts with KB/Mouse was pretty easy, and that was my main concern was control.

Darwin

05-08-2005, 09:45 AM

My complaint about GranTurismo is that I can't do monster drifts with the Hachiroku like I thought I could. Maybe I need to use the handbreak, just the footbreak and gas might not be good enough (or maybe I'm not good enough, after all I don't do deliveries every morning with a cup of water in the cupholder).

Remember that all cars you buy/win in GT4 come preset with their traction control and stability control set on and set to a middle setting. These two driving assists pretty much prevent you from being able to drift. That, in fact, is their purpose. (Interestingly enough, even cars that were made before these types of assists were invented still have the assists in them.)

Go to your car's setup and turn these driving assists down to a setting of about 3 (or just turn them off completely). Then, you should be able to drift. I've done it myself.

The same exact thing happens in Forza if you have the assists on.

Darwin

05-08-2005, 09:56 AM

A friend described Forza's car handling as "floaty." He pointed it out, but I couldn't see what he meant. The fact that Forza does what GT4 has been sleeping on does give it an advantage.

But anyone who has played both can attest to which one has the better in-game graphics.

Well, as far as the floaty comment .... was car was he using and what settings. Also, a floaty feeling may depend on the camera, not necessarily the physics. I don't feel that either game had "floaty" cars, certainly not like Sega GT 2002 had.

As far as comparing graphics ... I was comparing the best of what GT4 had (1080i mode) and the best of what Forza had (480p mode). Obviously, a game that renders it's image in a higher resolutions is probably going to have better graphics. I've seen GT4 in all it's modes and there are dramatic differences between normal, 480p, and 1080i in GT4. If you ask someone's opinion about comparing the two game's graphics, you also need to ask them what mode they rendered the game in.

Darwin

05-08-2005, 10:05 AM

With regards to the physics? Well, I think I'll believe the opinion of a couple of real life Le Mans race car drivers. Afterall, they are some of the only people that can truly vouch for the realism of the physics.

1) Did this real life Le Mans race car drivers also try GT4 using the logitech wheel, same car, same track, no driving assists?

2) Didn't Microsoft pay these guys? This is a celebrity endorsement of sorts.

Hell, Sammy Sosa stepped up and took the Pepsi challenge, right?

Mochan

05-08-2005, 11:18 AM

How about the Halo conversion?

It looked a little better, but I'll be damned if even with a 2.4 ghz system and a 256mb graphics card if I could get this thing to stop having frame-rate problems. Liked playing it with kb/mouse, but that's one example of sloppy ass programming. . . I mean, its a pretty basic first gen console game from 2001. About the only way it was better was load times.

Vice City on the other hand, couldn't agree more. PC version was great. Even found driving and stunts with KB/Mouse was pretty easy, and that was my main concern was control.

Driving in GTA is made even easier when you plug in a gamepad with sticks to do it .

And about Halo, yeah. I tried it before on my Athlon XP 1600 and a GF2 GTS and it sucked horribly with its FPS. I haven't tried it on a newer system yet, but I would think my current PC could handle it easy. Haven't really had reason to do so, there are much better FPS games to play on the PC.

Still, sloppy. Like I said, console to PC conversions tend to suck just as much as PC to console ones. If not more.

yacobschlomo

05-08-2005, 11:39 AM

1) Did this real life Le Mans race car drivers also try GT4 using the logitech wheel, same car, same track, no driving assists?

2) Didn't Microsoft pay these guys? This is a celebrity endorsement of sorts.

Hell, Sammy Sosa stepped up and took the Pepsi challenge, right?

Notice that I never said that Forza had better physics than GT4. In fact, I stated that this guy may not have played GT4 and therefore the physics in GT4 could be every bit as good as Forza (maybe better).

So lets go on the assumption that these guys were paid off. Let's say that whole Popular Science thing was basically a brilliant marketing ploy for Forza that was paid for by MS. What we are left with is the opinions of professional reviewers (who may or may not have an incentive to state an opinion one way or the other) and the opinions of individual gamers (like you and I). I have not seen any pro reviewers definitely say that GT4 has better physics than Forza. I believe that the physics in both GT4 and Forza are so accurate that it is nearly impossible for the average person to be able to say one is better than the other. Being the racing game fanatic you are, maybe you are able to better distinguish the differences then I am. I just think they are both pretty darn accurate.

I took some exception to TheLastWords statement that GT4 was still the king in the physics department because I don't really see any sources to back up that argument. I'm also tired of seeing people say that Gran Turismo is the king of racing games. It might be the best driving game (can't be playing the game with the Logitech racing wheel), but it's defintely not the best racing game.

I saw your statement regarding the matter, but all you basically said was that GT4's physics COULD be better than Forza. I take that to mean that you are at least reserving final judgement until after you've played more of Forza.

thelastword

05-08-2005, 05:36 PM

I took some exception to TheLastWords statement that GT4 was still the king in the physics department because I don't really see any sources to back up that argument. I'm also tired of seeing people say that Gran Turismo is the king of racing games. It might be the best driving game (can't be playing the game with the Logitech racing wheel), but it's defintely not the best racing game.

In reference to your earlier post, NO, I have not yet played Forza, that's why I said that I would want to get it as soon as possible. In relation to my comments about Forza, especially where physics are concerned, I was simply using the opinions of hardcore racing gamers who shared what appeared to me common thoughts in ref to forza's physics, ultimately, even giving the edge to GT. Also, No, it was'nt necessarily based on Darwin's comments about this common conclusion, but more so, from other dedicated racing fans. I guess all that must not mean much to you, afterall they don't race cars for a living.:rolleyes:

In all honesty if you believe that there's a better racing experience to be had outside of GT, that's pretty much your take on the matter, it's just clear that the majority of racing fans do not share your opinion, as it has been the standard to follow all along. All other sim racers and even semi-sim racers have been modelling after GT from Sega Gt to PGR to Apex to Namco Evolution to Enthusia to Toca and of course Forza. Granted, In the overall scheme of things Forza appears to have given GT a wake up call on certain fronts, but in no substantial way really. Regardless of whatever these reviewers say, Online is the only reason for Forza's good scores with the exception of it's ai, and please spare me the spiel on damage and a billion coats of paint.

I think forza is the closest a racer has ever gotten to GT and that's admirable from these guys on their first go, but I'm afraid that Forza 2
may spell the end for that team, especially if they do plan to go head to head with GT5. If the graphics are better now on older technology, and according to many, the physics and sound as well, then GT5 will simply rip it's closest rival apart. Everything is guaranteed to be superior including, Graphics,Physics,Sound,Online etc.. Anyways let's continue playing our GT4 and Forza for now, they're two fantastic racers this gen..;)

(Quick Question:) Does forza have rally and snow courses? just curious..

yacobschlomo

05-08-2005, 06:10 PM

In reference to your earlier post, NO, I have not yet played Forza, that's why I said that I would want to get it as soon as possible. In relation to my comments about Forza, especially where physics are concerned, I was simply using the opinions of hardcore racing gamers who shared what appeared to me common thoughts in ref to forza's physics, ultimately, even giving the edge to GT. Also, No, it was'nt necessarily based on Darwin's comments about this common conclusion, but more so, from other dedicated racing fans. I guess all that must not mean much to you, afterall they don't race cars for a living.:rolleyes:

In all honesty if you believe that there's a better racing experience to be had outside of GT, that's pretty much your take on the matter, it's just clear that the majority of racing fans do not share your opinion, as it has been the standard to follow all along. All other sim racers and even semi-sim racers have been modelling after GT from Sega Gt to PGR to Apex to Namco Evolution to Enthusia to Toca and of course Forza. Granted, In the overall scheme of things Forza appears to have given GT a wake up call on certain fronts, but in no substantial way really. Regardless of whatever these reviewers say, Online is the only reason for Forza's good scores with the exception of it's ai, and please spare me the spiel on damage and a billion coats of paint.

I think forza is the closest a racer has ever gotten to GT and that's admirable from these guys on their first go, but I'm afraid that Forza 2
may spell the end for that team, especially if they do plan to go head to head with GT5. If the graphics are better now on older technology, and according to many, the physics and sound as well, then GT5 will simply rip it's closest rival apart. Everything is guaranteed to be superior including, Graphics,Physics,Sound,Online etc.. Anyways let's continue playing our GT4 and Forza for now, they're two fantastic racers this gen..;)

(Quick Question:) Does forza have rally and snow courses? just curious..

I just re-read my own post and saw this statement, "can't be playing the game with the Logitech racing wheel". I have no idea what that was supposed to mean. I meant to say that it's great with the Logitech steering wheel.

I'm not saying the opinion of a gamer does not mean anything. What I am saying is that it doesn't mean as much in this particular instance. We're talking about incredibly realistic physics in both games. I doubt that someone who has never truly experienced driving in a race car for themselves can say that one is definitely more realistic than the other. As for what you've heard from other racing fans, I have to ask how far they have gotten into the game. Maybe I'm wrong and it is possible to judge the difference, but I would like to see those gamers put more time into the game before drawing a conclusion. Just look at what TheMaskedGamer had to say regarding this issue.

I don't think that it's clear that the majority of racing fans believe that GT4 offers the best racing experience on a console. The AI in GT4 makes every race practically a time trial. You're not racing against other cars. You're basically racing against yourself.

The reviews have basically confirmed that Forza is a better racing game, yet you say

"Regardless of whatever these reviewers say, Online is the only reason for Forza's good scores with the exception of it's ai....."

I guess the opinions of reviewers must not mean much to you, afterall they don't agree with "the majority of racing fans." :rolleyes: :P

When GT5 is released (probably another 3-4 years), I'd like to see more realistic AI and some car damage that affects car performance. These are two main advantages that Forza and TOCA 2 have over GT4. (This is not an Xbox vs PS2 argument since TOCA 2 is available on the PS2). Only conclusion I can really come up with is that Polyphony Digital is not really good when it comes to programming AI.

I don't think there is any rally or snow courses in the game. Unless they are unlockable. I can't check till I get home next week though.

BaneNWN

05-08-2005, 09:19 PM

How about the Halo conversion?

It looked a little better, but I'll be damned if even with a 2.4 ghz system and a 256mb graphics card if I could get this thing to stop having frame-rate problems. Liked playing it with kb/mouse, but that's one example of sloppy ass programming. . . I mean, its a pretty basic first gen console game from 2001. About the only way it was better was load times.

Vice City on the other hand, couldn't agree more. PC version was great. Even found driving and stunts with KB/Mouse was pretty easy, and that was my main concern was control.

To be honest with you i got more slow down with the Xbox version of Halo then i did with the pc version,and back then i only had a 1.1 ghz with a geforce 3 ti-200 graph card.I really had no problem with slow down.

I remember the Xbox version slowing down terribly in certain parts of the game.

PapaSmurf

05-09-2005, 02:01 AM

I believe Darwin's right. I'm not a hardcore racer, but I do like Initial D. :D But I have played both and I've heard the opinion of others that are hardcore into racers. Basically it boils down to what you and Darwin said. Forza has better A.I., car damage and the online component. GT4 has better graphics (How Polyphony Digital did it it anyone's guess) a better framerate, hence a better sense of speed, better car handling physics, more cars and more tracks. A friend described Forza's car handling as "floaty." He pointed it out, but I couldn't see what he meant. The fact that Forza does what GT4 has been sleeping on does give it an advantage.

There's a video floating around comparing them side by side. The claim is the video hasn't been altered, but I think it has. The Forza video has practically no sky. The sky is blown out, which hints that may have been lightened. The GT4 video looks comparably darker. And a theory is floating around that GT4 only looks better during replays. But anyone who has played both can attest to which one has the better in-game graphics.
I was in Best Buy today and they had a huge toshiba TV setup with a steering wheel and pedals for forza. The xbox was connected via component cables so I got actually see Forza in all of its greatness, or should I say arcadiness. When I say that I mean, the graphics seemed a lil arcady to me when I looked at the background and such. The game is solid though, but tbh its just no GT. Of course you don't get to online with the Best Buy set up, but the Best Buy setup was probably the most simulistic setup I've played, until I got home.

I bought some component cables for my PS2 today as well and decided to setup my GT4 with the Logitech Steering wheel and all. My T.V. isn't as big as the Toshiba, but its has the HD and what not and GT4 definitely has better physics (i know its been said). After playing two very similar setups of the two different games I'd go with GT4. I say this, going on playing the same aspects of each game for comparison. The Best Buy setup only had a time trial on, and I didn't do any races in GT4 today, just lisence stuff. The games are very comparable and truthfully, it probably doesn't matter which one you buy and if you've got an XBOX and PS2, just get both and be happy. I mean I think GT4 is better, but I mean its not that much better, and most people probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two except one's on XBOX and the other on PS2.

Now all I need to do is get my friends to buy steering wheels, big screen TVs, and then we can hook our PS2's up and LAN (always a dream of mine)

thelastword

05-09-2005, 01:54 PM

I don't think that it's clear that the majority of racing fans believe that GT4 offers the best racing experience on a console. The AI in GT4 makes every race practically a time trial. You're not racing against other cars. You're basically racing against yourself.
You are in denial, first, get over that part, you can't get a cure without first knowing your ailment (actually, it's fanboyism):) . you can speak to most people about racing sims on consoles and they'll come up with GT name over and over again.

Don't always race with more powerful cars than the pack, try using equally powered cars as well and don't bump the pack either, even if you know you can.

Have you ever heard of six man lan, now that's some cool stuff, its not online but it gives a more fun experience than online in some aspects. For online try X-kai Link, it definitely works and can offer you a challenge, if that's what you crave.

BaneNWN

05-09-2005, 02:11 PM

Seems to me what ive been reading when you compare forza and GT 4 is that forzas online aspect is what is selling the game more then anything.If forza wasnt online and i owned both ps 2 and Xbox id choose GT 4.GT 4 has twice as many tracks and about 500 more cars then Forza.I mean i think its cool forza added damage to cars but theres Knowway i would pass up all the extra cars/tracks GT 4 has.

yacobschlomo

05-09-2005, 02:59 PM

You are in denial, first, get over that part, you can't get a cure without first knowing your ailment (actually, it's fanboyism):) . you can speak to most people about racing sims on consoles and they'll come up with GT name over and over again.

Don't always race with more powerful cars than the pack, try using equally powered cars as well and don't bump the pack either, even if you know you can.

Have you ever heard of six man lan, now that's some cool stuff, its not online but it gives a more fun experience than online in some aspects. For online try X-kai Link, it definitely works and can offer you a challenge, if that's what you crave.

Actually, it seems that you are in denial. When people were arguing that TOCA 2 was a better racing game than GT3/4, the PS2 fans would always resort to the pro reviews. Now that the pro reviews have basically confirmed Forza's superiority, PS2 fans are now resorting to the argument that, "the majority of racing fans" think that GT4 is a better racing game. There's no arguing with you guys. I think the fanboyism is on your part. You haven't even played Forza yet. I have played both. Yet I'm the fanboy?

Not a single review site, that has reviewed both games, has stated that GT4 is better than Forza. However, many sites have already stated that Forza is the better racing game. Take off the blinders, man.

yacobschlomo

05-09-2005, 03:24 PM

Oh yeah, did I mention that this is not a PS2 vs Xbox argument? TOCA 2 proved that good AI and car damage were possible on the PS2. GT4 proves that the PS2 can not only compete with the Xbox graphically where racing games are concerned. What I want to see is Polyphony Digital add some good AI and car damage (That affects car performance - I can't stand that time penalty crap). I don't really play online so I don't care about that much, so good AI is important to me.

They could have taken all the time they took to model all those crappy cars, that no one will ever drive, and use it to improve the areas where the game was weakest. The number of cars is obviously not a problem.

thelastword

05-09-2005, 05:48 PM

Actually, it seems that you are in denial. When people were arguing that TOCA 2 was a better racing game than GT3/4, the PS2 fans would always resort to the pro reviews. Now that the pro reviews have basically confirmed Forza's superiority, PS2 fans are now resorting to the argument that, "the majority of racing fans" think that GT4 is a better racing game. There's no arguing with you guys. I think the fanboyism is on your part. You haven't even played Forza yet. I have played both. Yet I'm the fanboy?

Not a single review site, that has reviewed both games, has stated that GT4 is better than Forza. However, many sites have already stated that Forza is the better racing game. Take off the blinders, man.
I do respect the reviews for Forza, but even you should realize that Forza's online is what's helping it out here, a feature which many won't use at all. I believe that online may become a very important feature in the future but for now I believe that it's being blown out of proportion by the reviewers. The fact that Gt4 dropped the online aspects did hurt it with the reviews a bit, So then Forza came along and made sure that online was included, Be honest here, if both games had online you know that forza would be scoring in the mid-late 80's.

As I said before we can forget about all this for now,Gt4 and Forza both appear to be great racers, I believe based on what I know so far that Gt is better,On the other hand, you having played both seem to believe that Forza is better. Just take a look in this very thread though and you will notice that you are in the minority where this concensus is concerned.

Xbox has a great racer, Ps2 has A great racing franchise, it appears that we can both smile, but it appears that most people who have been saying that Gt is better owns both consoles, kind of interesting don't you think?

thelastword

05-09-2005, 06:07 PM

What will be interesting is how Forza does at retail, No one should deny the importance of a game's success, NO ONE!. Well I don't expect it to be in the same league with Gt on the sales-front but there's no reason why it should'nt sell at least a mil on the Xbox, so let's see if it does better than Enthusia, which was at the starting line with it.

Darwin

05-09-2005, 07:23 PM

I saw your statement regarding the matter, but all you basically said was that GT4's physics COULD be better than Forza. I take that to mean that you are at least reserving final judgement until after you've played more of Forza.

Yep. And if truth be told, I've done about 12 hours total in Forza, over 40 or so hours in GT4 ... and I cannot say which has a better physics engine. There are slight differences to each, but I cannot tell which appears to be more accurate. Also, it may be a bit of an unfair comparison for me to judge as I have played all of GT4 with a wheel and all of Forza with a controller.

Overall, I would have to say that there is no significant difference and that neither one is significatly better in terms of physics and car handling. Perhaps that means that they both "got it right".

Darwin

05-09-2005, 07:29 PM

(Quick Question:) Does forza have rally and snow courses? just curious..

Neither. And, I have not seen any rain courses in Forza, either.

yacobschlomo

05-09-2005, 09:00 PM

I do respect the reviews for Forza, but even you should realize that Forza's online is what's helping it out here, a feature which many won't use at all. I believe that online may become a very important feature in the future but for now I believe that it's being blown out of proportion by the reviewers. The fact that Gt4 dropped the online aspects did hurt it with the reviews a bit, So then Forza came along and made sure that online was included, Be honest here, if both games had online you know that forza would be scoring in the mid-late 80's.

As I said before we can forget about all this for now,Gt4 and Forza both appear to be great racers, I believe based on what I know so far that Gt is better,On the other hand, you having played both seem to believe that Forza is better. Just take a look in this very thread though and you will notice that you are in the minority where this concensus is concerned.

Xbox has a great racer, Ps2 has A great racing franchise, it appears that we can both smile, but it appears that most people who have been saying that Gt is better owns both consoles, kind of interesting don't you think?

I agree, they are both great games, but Forza is defintely a better racing game. :P

It's not only the online gameplay that makes Forza better. It's also better AI and car damage that actually affects performance (I don't know how many times I have to say this). How realistic is a simulation racing game that assesses time penalties for running into walls?

Who are the people in this thread that owns both consoles and has played both games say that GT4 is better?

The only people that I see saying GT4 is better are the people that have not played Forza and ones who have played a store demo. The people who have stated that GT4's physics are definitely better also seem to be ones who barely put any time into Forza. Turn off all the driving assists and then compare the two. Also, don't comnpare the physics of the two when you are using the Logitech Force Feedback wheel on GT4 and just a regular vibration feedback wheel with Forza.

You keep talking about how the majority of gamers think GT4 is better. You keep falling back on this statement over and over again because you don't have any facts to back up your opinion with. Why is it that the overwhelming majority of pro reviewers don't agree with the majority of gamers you keep referring too? Could it be because they've actually put a significant amount of time into both games?

I only wish the Xbox was as portable as my PSTwo. I'd be able to play the much superior Forza right now instead of sitting here arguing with you. :P

thelastword

05-10-2005, 07:26 AM

I agree, they are both great games, but Forza is defintely a better racing game. :P
Fine fine fine, but it's still your opinion...shhh!!

It's not only the online gameplay that makes Forza better. It's also better AI and car damage that actually affects performance (I don't know how many times I have to say this). How realistic is a simulation racing game that assesses time penalties for running into walls?
Well I'm glad that you've realized that you're just going in circles here, We have already covered that the Ai is a bit better, unlike you I dont feel the need to keep repeating it, Can't you understand online is Forza's strongest point against Gt, the other points being Ai and damage are simply not as significant..Yes they're good points to forza as well, but they don't carry as much weight as online. Read the reviews of both forza and GT and you will realize that, my goodness.....

Who are the people in this thread that owns both consoles and has played both games say that GT4 is better?
More people than just you, that's for sure, I don't have to spell it out a for you, do I ?, afterall you are'nt a child, hmmm!, or are you...;) .

The only people that I see saying GT4 is better are the people that have not played Forza and ones who have played a store demo. The people who have stated that GT4's physics are definitely better also seem to be ones who barely put any time into Forza. Turn off all the driving assists and then compare the two. Also, don't comnpare the physics of the two when you are using the Logitech Force Feedback wheel on GT4 and just a regular vibration feedback wheel with Forza.
surely I'll be playing forza with a controller, So I'll be sure to turn all assists off, I'll also have you know that I play Gt 4 with a standard ps2 controller. It's better for me that way, reason being, when I play against friends either in versus or lan we all use controllers.

You keep talking about how the majority of gamers think GT4 is better. You keep falling back on this statement over and over again because you don't have any facts to back up your opinion with. Why is it that the overwhelming majority of pro reviewers don't agree with the majority of gamers you keep referring too? Could it be because they've actually put a significant amount of time into both games?
I did say that I respect the Pro-reviewers take on these games, but the difference between the two of us is I also respect the opinions of gamers who probably play the game more thoroughly than these very reviewers. Can't you get it man! I respect their reviews but I respect my opinion on things as well....

I only wish the Xbox was as portable as my PSTwo. I'd be able to play the much superior Forza right now instead of sitting here arguing with you. :P
Don't you worry my fellow circuit-citier, an Xbox slim is just around the corner, errrr!, the mean slim XBOX 360 slam dunk machine. :rolleyes:

To be quite honest with you, I have been somewhat delaying Forza's purchase, since it may very well be my last xbox game, but I'll just go ahead and get it now, and get this over with. It makes no sense arguing furthermore on this matter IMO, when I get Forza I'll be sure to spend some quality time with it and will therefore give a more detailed analysis of it in future exchanges. Until then GT4 is still king in my opinion unless forza strikes me just as it's done you, but somehow I even doubt that. That'll be all from me on this subject at this moment..Please feel free...the ball is in your court.

Darwin

05-10-2005, 08:05 AM

It's not only the online gameplay that makes Forza better. It's also better AI and car damage that actually affects performance (I don't know how many times I have to say this). How realistic is a simulation racing game that assesses time penalties for running into walls?

This is a great point. Racing games that do not implement a penalty for hitting walls can encourage racers to bounce off walls to improve their lap times. You can do this in several areas in GT4.

And this is, perhaps, where Forza really differentiates itself from GT4: better overall ballance. Here is why. Forza has these aspects that GT4 lacks:

- Penalties for hitting walls. Damage to your car which you have to pay to fix. Damage can cause your car not to properly function. Also, you slow way down when hitting a wall.

- Time added to your lap time if you cut the grass or cut the chicane. Also, many of the tracks have well-placed sand traps to slow you down when you do this.

- Time adds to your lap time if you bump-draft the car in front of you to try to gain an advantage.

- A very well-ballanced car class system to that ensures you are always racing against fair competition.

As far as AI is concerned .... yes, Forza has better AI than GT4. However, there are problems with Forza's AI. They clearly rubber-band, and you can see this in replays where they make a mistake, and the fact that their lap times change depending on your performance. Also, in certain races, the second place AI become overly agressive and acts like GT4 ... hits you from behind. And sometimes they do it real hard. Not always (like GT4), just sometimes. In those cases, I have no choice but to lower the AI setting. (Hey, if they are not going to play fair, neither am I). And this has happened even when I never once hit them. But, in Forza, when AI makes contact with you, your car reacts in a realistic way, making you car unstable. But in GT4, the game designers built in some sort of stability assist when you get hit from AI, so that you usually won't get spun out. It's almost as if Polyphony knew their AI sucked, and so added in this feature to eleviate frustration.

IMO, Toca 2 has better AI then Forza.

yacobschlomo

05-10-2005, 08:50 AM

More people than just you, that's for sure, I don't have to spell it out a for you, do I ?, afterall you are'nt a child, hmmm!, or are you...;). I did say that I respect the Pro-reviewers take on these games, but the difference between the two of us is I also respect the opinions of gamers who probably play the game more thoroughly than these very reviewers. Can't you get it man! I respect their reviews but I respect my opinion on things as well....

Actually, please spell it out for me (if you can). Who here that has put a significant amount of time into both games says that GT4 is better (or even vice versa).

Personally, I haven't even played enough of Forza yet to defintely say that it's a better videogame (when I said Forza was obviously the superior game, I was basically being facetious.) The racing aspect of it seems a lot better so far, but the same was true for TOCA 2. If you just talk about the racing aspect of the game, then TOCA 2 may even be better than Forza.

I respect the opinions of gamers, but I don't think there are any here that have played enough of Forza to make a definitive statement about it yet. Can't you get it man! Those professional reviewers probably spend all day playing the game for a couple of weeks before writing a review. I don't think any gamer here has been able to put that much time into the game. Which is why I'm going to trust the pro reviews first rather than the opinions of people who have never played the game, have only played the demo, or have only put in a few hours into it.

This is probably the last argument from me. I get home tonight so I'm looking forward to getting some play time on Forza. You shouldn't go out and get the game if your already satisfied with GT4. There is so much to do in that game, you'll probably be playing it forever. Spending another $50 might just be a waste of money for you.

I'm planning to take a closer look at the graphics tonight. I'm very suprised that an "inferior" console like the PS2 is able to produce a much better looking racing game than the Xbox. From what I recall, GT4 looked a lot more detailed, while Forza seemed kinda bland and "blurry". I'll need to take a closer look though. (yes, I am a graphics whore.)

thelastword

05-10-2005, 09:33 AM

This is probably the last argument from me. I get home tonight so I'm looking forward to getting some play time on Forza. You shouldn't go out and get the game if your already satisfied with GT4. There is so much to do in that game, you'll probably be playing it forever. Spending another $50 might just be a waste of money for you.
First off, Thanks for trying to save my money, but you see a Forza purchase was always on the cards for me, I mean, if you ca