M$'s Next Gen arrogance/desperation...

[Zilla Man]

We're now just a few scant weeks away from the unveiling of the new next generation gaming consoles. The next generation system wars are starting and if rumors are to be believed, M$ will be firing the first salvo. However, I think in doing so they've made several fatal mistakes that may cost them more customers than they gain. Here's a few:


Cutting Into The Lifespan of Your Current Console At It's Peak

The Xbox is just now hitting it's stride in tech prowess and sales/market penetration. Previously a lot of programmers were lazy by using it's PC like architecture to simply dimp the code in. Now they're scratching beneath the surface and starting to do wonderful things with it. This should have gone on for another two years. But because M$ somehow thinks that the reason they got beat by Sony was the year's difference (hint: it was a combo of b/c and the games, stupid), they're trying to cut this generation short.

Big problem with this is that, as Gadfly eloquently stated, you'll be alienating a lot of new customers who just bought an Xbox. Considering that they've had their best sales ever these last few months, this is a big mistake. I'm already hearing rumblings of dissent from sites like C.H.U.D. as well as fan based ones like Team Xbox and Xbox Solution ("but I just got an Xbox...!"). Uh Oh...

The other mistake M$ is making by forcing the next generation upon us is alienating the publishers. Yes, I know that's usually Nintendo's area. :p But seriously, two people I talked to recently, one from Vivendi, the other from Midway, were expressing concern that they were still waiting for official development kits from M$. One company doesn't want to start on the Xenon version only to have to start from scratch when M$ finally gives them the real kits. Even EA has complained about the short time M$ has given them to prep 360 Madden.


Putting Out 2 Separate Versions Of The Same Console

This, IMHO, is just plain stupid. Every recent videogame console that's tried to do this has failed: Sega 32X/Neptune, Phillips CDi (two versions), 3DO, etc. Sure, VGR zealots will know the difference but Mr. and Mrs. Average Joe (which is where most of your market $ comes from) may just be confused - and possibly angry (see below). I'm not saying M$ will fail but this is not smart. It divides your own market/userbase.


Charging Extra For Something That You'd Previously Offered For Free

Putting a HD in Xbox was one of the most ingenoius things any console manufacturer ever did. Not having to deal with memory cards and being able to use custom soundtracks was great, especially during racing games. It also gave the Xbot Technophiles a feeling of superiority over their PS2 counter parts. Well, no more. Now M$ is charging an extra $100 for a feature that was standard in the previous generation! WTF?! I could understand if the last one hadn't come with one but to charge the consumer for a built-in feature that you previously offered for free is just plain arrogant. This is something not even Nintendo would dare do. :rolleyes: It also makes M$ look cheap as well as greedy. I can just hear the angry GameStop/Walmart customers now when they're told that they need to buy memory cards or shell out an $100...or shell out almost as much for the HD perpheral. I think the average consumer may very well balk at both these options.

This will look especially bad if PS3 and Revolution come standard with hard drives. :o And from what my sources indicate, they both most likely do. Nice going, Bill.


Charging Extra For Something the Competition Will Offer For Free

This is probably the biggest dealbreaker. I don't care what MG and others say, b/c is a big deal. Especially when someone wants to upgrade to a new console. Now M$ wants to charge an extra $100 for that too. Again, considering that they're the ones pushing their previous console into oblivion, this is not smart. Sony and Nintendo have already announced that their machines will be b/c. By charging $100 for something the competition is including as standard, M$ comes off as the greedy corporation everyone loves to paint them as. Only this time they'd be right. Congratualtions, M$: you're the first console manuafcturer to actually go backwards ( by removing standard features from your next console), instead of backwards compatible. :rolleyes:


Overall, I'm distressed that M$ seems determined to squander all the goodwill they've built up with their customers the last 3 1/2 years by shooting themselves in the foot. Yes, I know Nintendo has done this; but at least with them it was a gradual decline over several generations -- not one simultaneous bout of hari kari. I understand they're panicking: last time out M$ had a huge tech edge over Sony and they still couldn't win. And from what my 3rd party associates tell me, the PS3 is leaps and bounds more powerful than 360 in AND programming ease. And you can't count Nintendo out either. They've already gone on record as saying that the console will be online with its own network -- for free. And if you don't think they'll be an appeal of playing Animal Crossing, Metroid Prime, Smash Bros., and Mario online, I'll sell you my Xbox 360 copy of Blinx 3. ;)

But the thing that really distresses me is the games. Like Gaddy stated, there's not one 360 announced launch title that couldn't be done on Xbox. Now things may change come E3, but given M$'s previous record/past experience in games, I'm not very optimistic (I don't count Morrowwind Oblivion because it's being made for all three next gen consoles). I'm the world's BIGGEST Perfect Dark fan. When my friend gave me his N64 three tyears ago, it was the only game I actually went out and tracked down. Graphics aside, I think it's light years better than BOTH Halo's. But I'll be damned if I'm going to dish out $400 just to play one game and then sit back and wait 1.5 years for a steadt stream of true next generation games (i. e. stuff you couldn't do on Xbox). Especially when there are still a lot of great ones from this generation to play.

Okay, guys, I'd like as many people as possible to weigh in on this (c'mon Glockstar, Masked, Trebor, Last Word, Waco, and Gaddy).

[T.Tashi]

We're now just a few scant weeks away from the unveiling of the new next generation gaming consoles. The next generation system wars are starting and if rumors are to be believed, M$ will be firing the first salvo. However, I think in doing so they've made several fatal mistakes that may cost them more customers than they gain. Here's a few:



Cutting Into The Lifespan of Your Current Console At It's Peak


The Xbox is just now hitting it's stride in tech prowess and sales/market penetration. Previously a lot of programmers were lazy by using it's PC like architecture to simply dimp the code in. Now they're scratching beneath the surface and starting to do wonderful things with it. This should have gone on for another two years. But because M$ somehow thinks that the reason they got beat by Sony was the year's difference (hint: it was a combo of b/c and the games, stupid), they're trying to cut this generation short.



Big problem with this is that, as Gadfly eloquently stated, you'll be alienating a lot of new customers who just bought an Xbox. Considering that they've had their best sales ever these last few months, this is a big mistake. I'm already hearing rumblings of dissent from sites like C.H.U.D. as well as fan based ones like Team Xbox and Xbox Solution ("but I just got an Xbox...!"). Uh Oh...



The other mistake M$ is making by forcing the next generation upon us is alienating the publishers. Yes, I know that's usually Nintendo's area. :p But seriously, two people I talked to recently, one from Vivendi, the other from Midway, were expressing concern that they were still waiting for official development kits from M$. One company doesn't want to start on the Xenon version only to have to start from scratch when M$ finally gives them the real kits. Even EA has complained about the short time M$ has given them to prep 360 Madden.
Putting Out 2 Separate Versions Of The Same Console


This, IMHO, is just plain stupid. Every recent videogame console that's tried to do this has failed: Sega 32X/Neptune, Phillips CDi (two versions), 3DO, etc. Sure, VGR zealots will know the difference but Mr. and Mrs. Average Joe (which is where most of your market $ comes from) may just be confused - and possibly angry (see below). I'm not saying M$ will fail but this is not smart. It divides your own market/userbase.
Charging Extra For Something That You'd Previously Offered For Free


Putting a HD in Xbox was one of the most ingenoius things any console manufacturer ever did. Not having to deal with memory cards and being able to use custom soundtracks was great, especially during racing games. It also gave the Xbot Technophiles a feeling of superiority over their PS2 counter parts. Well, no more. Now M$ is charging an extra $100 for a feature that was standard in the previous generation! WTF?! I could understand if the last one hadn't come with one but to charge the consumer for a built-in feature that you previously offered for free is just plain arrogant. This is something not even Nintendo would dare do. :rolleyes: It also makes M$ look cheap as well as greedy. I can just hear the angry GameStop/Walmart customers now when they're told that they need to buy memory cards or shell out an $100...or shell out almost as much for the HD perpheral. I think the average consumer may very well balk at both these options.



This will look especially bad if PS3 and Revolution come standard with hard drives. :o And from what my sources indicate, they both most likely do. Nice going, Bill.
Charging Extra For Something the Competition Will Offer For Free


This is probably the biggest dealbreaker. I don't care what MG and others say, b/c is a big deal. Especially when someone wants to upgrade to a new console. Now M$ wants to charge an extra $100 for that too. Again, considering that they're the ones pushing their previous console into oblivion, this is not smart. Sony and Nintendo have already announced that their machines will be b/c. By charging $100 for something the competition is including as standard, M$ comes off as the greedy corporation everyone loves to paint them as. Only this time they'd be right. Congratualtions, M$: you're the first console manuafcturer to actually go backwards ( by removing standard features from your next console), instead of backwards compatible. :rolleyes:

Overall, I'm distressed that M$ seems determined to squander all the goodwill they've built up with their customers the last 3 1/2 years by shooting themselves in the foot. Yes, I know Nintendo has done this; but at least with them it was a gradual decline over several generations -- not one simultaneous bout of hari kari. I understand they're panicking: last time out M$ had a huge tech edge over Sony and they still couldn't win. And from what my 3rd party associates tell me, the PS3 is leaps and bounds more powerful than 360 in AND programming ease. And you can't count Nintendo out either. They've already gone on record as saying that the console will be online with its own network -- for free. And if you don't think they'll be an appeal of playing Animal Crossing, Metroid Prime, Smash Bros., and Mario online, I'll sell you my Xbox 360 copy of Blinx 3. ;)

But the thing that really distresses me is the games. Like Gaddy stated, there's not one 360 announced launch title that couldn't be done on Xbox. Now things may change come E3, but given M$'s previous record/past experience in games, I'm not very optimistic (I don't count Morrowwind Oblivion because it's being made for all three next gen consoles). I'm the world's BIGGEST Perfect Dark fan. When my friend gave me his N64 three tyears ago, it was the only game I actually went out and tracked down. Graphics aside, I think it's light years better than BOTH Halo's. But I'll be damned if I'm going to dish out $400 just to play one game and then sit back and wait 1.5 years for a steadt stream of true next generation games (i. e. stuff you couldn't do on Xbox). Especially when there are still a lot of great ones from this generation to play.

Okay, guys, I'd like as many people as possible to weigh in on this (c'mon Glockstar, Masked, Trebor, Last Word, Waco, and Gaddy).

Good post. Lots of food for thought.


No doubt that launching a new system in less than 5 years is not a good thing. They didn't get OKed this round, but M$ still took a beating. I don't think launching early will be any more advantageous than it was for Dreamcast. Sega tried to ursurp the console cycle and got slaughtered. The 3D0 (or rather Panasonic) decided they weren't gonna eat the cost of the console and launched it at $700. Now what Lorne Manning said is true... we want $1000 systems for $300.. and all I have to say to that is you're damn right. I'm gonna end up buying thousands of dollars in software and perpherials anyway. So the different cost angles with this added and that subtracted is something of a turnoff.


Consoles usually hit their stride late in the game, i. e. year 4 and beyond. And if you look at the E3 list, there's tons of games in development for PS2, Xbox and PC mainly... you also have the GBA, DS and now the PSP. If you check out the PSP list, it ain't that deep. Having yet another console to develop for in this cycle is a serious strain on developer resources. And if Zilla is right and developers are waiting for kits that's added pressure.


Putting out more than one version of a console really does seem like a good idea in theory. But I'm not gonna argue with history. Then again, Sony did a repeat with the PS, PS2 so anything is possible.


I think M$ sees some opprotunities in launching early in all the extra costs, and I can't be mad at 'em. M$ is just being M$ especially with the b/c feature. But it's an important list to take a good long took at. It is a glimpse of what the industry would be like if M$ had dominance.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

about XBOX. So this shouldn't concern you. Also, nobody is forcing you to buy a new console. And, MS launching early isn't affecting Sony or Nintendo. They are waiting, its not like MS' move is prompting Sony to move earlier.

Basically, you have three options if you are MS.

1. You can launch after Sony. Obviously, this is suicide.

2. You can launch head to head against Sony. This is also a bad move. Because there will be no way to compare the two systems, and people will buy based on hype and emotion, and Sony will win. People won't be able to afford two systems, so one will lose big. Also, Sony will get the jump in Japan if MS waits till Fall of 2006.

3. The last option is to launch before Sony. This is the best option. People will have time to see what XBOX 360 is all about, and have a slate of games and technology to compare against what Sony is offering. You don't have to worry about competing dollars and you also move out of a manufacturing cycle with the current XBOX that you don't want to be in. People assume Sony will have the better technology, it may be, but it won't be that much better. Sony is locked into this Cell chip, and that may or may not be the only advantage. Memory should be close to the same, the graphcs cards should be equal, will Sony make every game 720p and online aware? And Sony has to overcome development hurdles, that apparently MS has already solved, if they are ready to go.


Far as worrying about two different versions of the console, and bc, and all that other stuff. There aren't two versions, it sounds like its the same console, one will ship with the hd, the other won't, that is hardly two different versions. Secondly we don't know exactly what the HD is for, it could be that the HD is to ENABLE b/c.

Like I said before, MS is doing just fine. They seem to have thought through everything, and this system will be hard to beat. Sony can do it, but it will cost them and possibly the consumer. On top of that will their hardware be easy to master? Then it will still, hopefully, come down to the games. And MS will be throwing out their best stuff in 2006. Launching early is the smartest move.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

We're now just a few scant weeks away from the unveiling of the new next generation gaming consoles. The next generation system wars are starting and if rumors are to be believed, M$ will be firing the first salvo. However, I think in doing so they've made several fatal mistakes that may cost them more customers than they gain. Here's a few:


Cutting Into The Lifespan of Your Current Console At It's Peak

The Xbox is just now hitting it's stride in tech prowess and sales/market penetration. Previously a lot of programmers were lazy by using it's PC like architecture to simply dimp the code in. Now they're scratching beneath the surface and starting to do wonderful things with it. This should have gone on for another two years. But because M$ somehow thinks that the reason they got beat by Sony was the year's difference (hint: it was a combo of b/c and the games, stupid), they're trying to cut this generation short.

Big problem with this is that, as Gadfly eloquently stated, you'll be alienating a lot of new customers who just bought an Xbox. Considering that they've had their best sales ever these last few months, this is a big mistake. I'm already hearing rumblings of dissent from sites like C.H.U.D. as well as fan based ones like Team Xbox and Xbox Solution ("but I just got an Xbox...!"). Uh Oh...

The other mistake M$ is making by forcing the next generation upon us is alienating the publishers. Yes, I know that's usually Nintendo's area. :p But seriously, two people I talked to recently, one from Vivendi, the other from Midway, were expressing concern that they were still waiting for official development kits from M$. One company doesn't want to start on the Xenon version only to have to start from scratch when M$ finally gives them the real kits. Even EA has complained about the short time M$ has given them to prep 360 Madden.


Putting Out 2 Separate Versions Of The Same Console

This, IMHO, is just plain stupid. Every recent videogame console that's tried to do this has failed: Sega 32X/Neptune, Phillips CDi (two versions), 3DO, etc. Sure, VGR zealots will know the difference but Mr. and Mrs. Average Joe (which is where most of your market $ comes from) may just be confused - and possibly angry (see below). I'm not saying M$ will fail but this is not smart. It divides your own market/userbase.


Charging Extra For Something That You'd Previously Offered For Free

Putting a HD in Xbox was one of the most ingenoius things any console manufacturer ever did. Not having to deal with memory cards and being able to use custom soundtracks was great, especially during racing games. It also gave the Xbot Technophiles a feeling of superiority over their PS2 counter parts. Well, no more. Now M$ is charging an extra $100 for a feature that was standard in the previous generation! WTF?! I could understand if the last one hadn't come with one but to charge the consumer for a built-in feature that you previously offered for free is just plain arrogant. This is something not even Nintendo would dare do. :rolleyes: It also makes M$ look cheap as well as greedy. I can just hear the angry GameStop/Walmart customers now when they're told that they need to buy memory cards or shell out an $100...or shell out almost as much for the HD perpheral. I think the average consumer may very well balk at both these options.

This will look especially bad if PS3 and Revolution come standard with hard drives. :o And from what my sources indicate, they both most likely do. Nice going, Bill.


Charging Extra For Something the Competition Will Offer For Free

This is probably the biggest dealbreaker. I don't care what MG and others say, b/c is a big deal. Especially when someone wants to upgrade to a new console. Now M$ wants to charge an extra $100 for that too. Again, considering that they're the ones pushing their previous console into oblivion, this is not smart. Sony and Nintendo have already announced that their machines will be b/c. By charging $100 for something the competition is including as standard, M$ comes off as the greedy corporation everyone loves to paint them as. Only this time they'd be right. Congratualtions, M$: you're the first console manuafcturer to actually go backwards ( by removing standard features from your next console), instead of backwards compatible. :rolleyes:


Overall, I'm distressed that M$ seems determined to squander all the goodwill they've built up with their customers the last 3 1/2 years by shooting themselves in the foot. Yes, I know Nintendo has done this; but at least with them it was a gradual decline over several generations -- not one simultaneous bout of hari kari. I understand they're panicking: last time out M$ had a huge tech edge over Sony and they still couldn't win. And from what my 3rd party associates tell me, the PS3 is leaps and bounds more powerful than 360 in AND programming ease. And you can't count Nintendo out either. They've already gone on record as saying that the console will be online with its own network -- for free. And if you don't think they'll be an appeal of playing Animal Crossing, Metroid Prime, Smash Bros., and Mario online, I'll sell you my Xbox 360 copy of Blinx 3. ;)

But the thing that really distresses me is the games. Like Gaddy stated, there's not one 360 announced launch title that couldn't be done on Xbox. Now things may change come E3, but given M$'s previous record/past experience in games, I'm not very optimistic (I don't count Morrowwind Oblivion because it's being made for all three next gen consoles). I'm the world's BIGGEST Perfect Dark fan. When my friend gave me his N64 three tyears ago, it was the only game I actually went out and tracked down. Graphics aside, I think it's light years better than BOTH Halo's. But I'll be damned if I'm going to dish out $400 just to play one game and then sit back and wait 1.5 years for a steadt stream of true next generation games (i. e. stuff you couldn't do on Xbox). Especially when there are still a lot of great ones from this generation to play.

Okay, guys, I'd like as many people as possible to weigh in on this (c'mon Glockstar, Masked, Trebor, Last Word, Waco, and Gaddy).


The DC comparsions are way off the mark. The reason is the PS2 hype didn't kill the DC what Killed DC is that they didn't have great 3rd party support. There was no EA Activison had a very limited pressence the only 3rd party that consistently supplied the DC with games was Capcom (odd that the capcom whores on this board still took forever to buy one). MS has just about every major Publisher for the NA on board with the Xbox 2.

As for the games your opinion is moot it doesn't matter what you deem as truly next gen. There is no telling what is going to sell when crap like Driv3r 3 sells in the millions you can't just sit there and predict what the people will want. People especially after E3 thought Halo was going to bomb we all see how that turned out. Plus you don't know 1/3 of the titles that are going to be released for the system yet you are already judging the library? Come on now.

The tech difference isn't going to matter it has never mattered and it won't matter this gen. Even if Sony system is more powerful I doubt it will be able to do anything that the Xbox won't. It won't be like this generation and from all reports on people who have actually reported on the cell so far it's not all it's cracked up to be. Oh The EMOTION!!!!!

As far as alienated fans anybody who is just now buying a xbox wouldn't have bought one at launch no matter when it was. Plus unlike a Nintendo console MS has enough 3rd party support to keep the system afloat. And the casuals buy primarily 3rd party games look at the charts.

You and your Elitist hippie friend Gadfly have a real low opinion of people. I'll give you a peace of knowledge just because people don't like what you like doesn't mean they are stupid. And just because they may not post on messageboards that doesn' mean that two different versions of the xbox is going to confuse them. Hell it's typcal of a console launch to find so many bundles that they're are always multiple prices out there anywhere.

As far as BC you are guessing no one knows the effect of this. And as far as you theory as to MS charging for something that the competition is offering for free well that's the advantage of launching first they are not directly competing with the competition yet. And you are not thinking sensibly if you believe MS has any other real option but to launch first.

I don't believe you about the PS3 having a HDD for free. And from all reports it seems like they are going to launch with multiple versions of the PS3 as well.

[trebor]

There are actually a LOT of the same sentiments in this post that I've been expressing too in the last few months. Point by point, I'll comment on each of them...


Cutting Into The Lifespan of Your Current Console At It's Peak

The Xbox is just now hitting it's stride in tech prowess and sales/market penetration. Previously a lot of programmers were lazy by using it's PC like architecture to simply dimp the code in. Now they're scratching beneath the surface and starting to do wonderful things with it. This should have gone on for another two years. But because M$ somehow thinks that the reason they got beat by Sony was the year's difference (hint: it was a combo of b/c and the games, stupid), they're trying to cut this generation short.

Big problem with this is that, as Gadfly eloquently stated, you'll be alienating a lot of new customers who just bought an Xbox. Considering that they've had their best sales ever these last few months, this is a big mistake. I'm already hearing rumblings of dissent from sites like C.H.U.D. as well as fan based ones like Team Xbox and Xbox Solution ("but I just got an Xbox...!"). Uh Oh...

The other mistake M$ is making by forcing the next generation upon us is alienating the publishers. Yes, I know that's usually Nintendo's area. :p But seriously, two people I talked to recently, one from Vivendi, the other from Midway, were expressing concern that they were still waiting for official development kits from M$. One company doesn't want to start on the Xenon version only to have to start from scratch when M$ finally gives them the real kits. Even EA has complained about the short time M$ has given them to prep 360 Madden.

This is one of my main beefs with M$ right now, as the Xbox finally has become attractive to me as the picky gamer I am. Of course, since I am fairly up to date in the current goings on in the VG industry I WON'T be buying an Xbox now - I'm aware the Xbox2 is on the way later this year.

As I've said in previous threads, I think all three current consoles are extremely capable machines, that can produce beautiful graphics, which currently will cost less to produce games for. Personally, I'd be happy with the current consoles for many more years. As more high-powered machines are released to the market, production costs will go up too, which will mean less and less "risky" games will be released - rehashes and sequels will be all there is to choose from - but that's a topic for another thread.

It's obvious that M$ has always had a PC approach to the console industry - they used standard PC components in their hardware, their OS is derived from Windows, and they've been excessively pushing a lot of the functionality of PC's to apply to the Xbox, like it being a multimedia center and having direct communication with PCs. This has been the Xbox's greatest asset and worst enemy at the same time - sure it gets a lot ports from the PC world to boost it's library, but it also has relatively NO identity as a stand alone console - hence we get the endless comparisons between PCs and Xboxs.

To the point here, it's SOP to expect PC users to upgrade their systems every 2 - 3 years to stay current, but M$ is applying this principle to the console world - and that is VERY bad for console gamers. Some of the rampant Xbots justify (in their heads at least) that it's "ok" that M$ effectively giving the Xbox a 4 year lifespan, but it won't end there. What will they say when M$ plans to release Xbox3 3 years after the Xbox2, or Xbox4 2 years after Xbox3? If releasing a new console will be M$s answer to a losing battle, it will be a never ending cycle.


Putting Out 2 Separate Versions Of The Same Console

This, IMHO, is just plain stupid. Every recent videogame console that's tried to do this has failed: Sega 32X/Neptune, Phillips CDi (two versions), 3DO, etc. Sure, VGR zealots will know the difference but Mr. and Mrs. Average Joe (which is where most of your market $ comes from) may just be confused - and possibly angry (see below). I'm not saying M$ will fail but this is not smart. It divides your own market/userbase.

This is another point I've mentioned in the past - M$ is basically shooting itself in the foot by competing against itself.


Charging Extra For Something That You'd Previously Offered For Free

Putting a HD in Xbox was one of the most ingenoius things any console manufacturer ever did. Not having to deal with memory cards and being able to use custom soundtracks was great, especially during racing games. It also gave the Xbot Technophiles a feeling of superiority over their PS2 counter parts. Well, no more. Now M$ is charging an extra $100 for a feature that was standard in the previous generation! WTF?! I could understand if the last one hadn't come with one but to charge the consumer for a built-in feature that you previously offered for free is just plain arrogant. This is something not even Nintendo would dare do. :rolleyes: It also makes M$ look cheap as well as greedy. I can just hear the angry GameStop/Walmart customers now when they're told that they need to buy memory cards or shell out an $100...or shell out almost as much for the HD perpheral. I think the average consumer may very well balk at both these options.

This will look especially bad if PS3 and Revolution come standard with hard drives. :o And from what my sources indicate, they both most likely do. Nice going, Bill.

One of the few credits I give M$ is the inclusion of the HDD and a well made online service. It's kinda pathetic that they will be releasing a console without a HDD - ESPECIALLY when Sony and Nintendo are rumored to be including it. Consoles are supposed to incrementally improve - NOT regress.


Charging Extra For Something the Competition Will Offer For Free

This is probably the biggest dealbreaker. I don't care what MG and others say, b/c is a big deal. Especially when someone wants to upgrade to a new console. Now M$ wants to charge an extra $100 for that too. Again, considering that they're the ones pushing their previous console into oblivion, this is not smart. Sony and Nintendo have already announced that their machines will be b/c. By charging $100 for something the competition is including as standard, M$ comes off as the greedy corporation everyone loves to paint them as. Only this time they'd be right. Congratualtions, M$: you're the first console manuafcturer to actually go backwards ( by removing standard features from your next console), instead of backwards compatible. :rolleyes:


I read somewhere (sorry no link) that M$ was intending to "support Xbox1 until 2007", except that could mean a LOT of different things. If they're intending to continue to release games for it, that could somewhat justify the exclusion of b/c for Xbox2. Of course, it could just mean that there will be Live support for Xbox1 till 2007 - which is will make Xbox2's lack of b/c a real killer.

Also, even if they do "support" Xbox1 till 2007 and keep publishing games for it, those will be few and far between. Case in point, yeah, you can run out and buy PSone, but how many games are released for it every year?


Overall, I'm distressed that M$ seems determined to squander all the goodwill they've built up with their customers the last 3 1/2 years by shooting themselves in the foot. Yes, I know Nintendo has done this; but at least with them it was a gradual decline over several generations -- not one simultaneous bout of hari kari. I understand they're panicking: last time out M$ had a huge tech edge over Sony and they still couldn't win. And from what my 3rd party associates tell me, the PS3 is leaps and bounds more powerful than 360 in AND programming ease. And you can't count Nintendo out either. They've already gone on record as saying that the console will be online with its own network -- for free. And if you don't think they'll be an appeal of playing Animal Crossing, Metroid Prime, Smash Bros., and Mario online, I'll sell you my Xbox 360 copy of Blinx 3. ;)

But the thing that really distresses me is the games. Like Gaddy stated, there's not one 360 announced launch title that couldn't be done on Xbox. Now things may change come E3, but given M$'s previous record/past experience in games, I'm not very optimistic (I don't count Morrowwind Oblivion because it's being made for all three next gen consoles). I'm the world's BIGGEST Perfect Dark fan. When my friend gave me his N64 three tyears ago, it was the only game I actually went out and tracked down. Graphics aside, I think it's light years better than BOTH Halo's. But I'll be damned if I'm going to dish out $400 just to play one game and then sit back and wait 1.5 years for a steadt stream of true next generation games (i. e. stuff you couldn't do on Xbox). Especially when there are still a lot of great ones from this generation to play.

Okay, guys, I'd like as many people as possible to weigh in on this (c'mon Glockstar, Masked, Trebor, Last Word, Waco, and Gaddy).

I have a LOT of friends who currently own an Xbox, whom I've asked if they will be buying an Xbox2 when it's released - not a single one has stated they will. If that is a consistent trend with current Xbox owners, I see a very rough road for the system in the future.

To make a broad statement here, I think many gamers take the "wait and see" approach before they'll make a console purchase. If gamers wait till all 3 next-gen systems are out, and for them to really start hitting their strides, Xbox2 could be waiting years before the bandwagon decides to join up. I think that's what happened to Dreamcast too - people just waited till PS2 came out and chose the best one, which killed it.

Now that most of the excitement and attention of the VG industry seems to be on handhelds, gamers could wait for years to buy another console - as their gaming needs will be fufilled by their PSPs or DSs. This is also bad for M$ releasing early.

Either way, I'm salivating for E3 to finally arrive.

[The Prince of Darkness]

I will comment anyway.



[list]
Cutting Into The Lifespan of Your Current Console At It's Peak

At it's peak????? Am I hearing some of you guys correctly these days or what? From my vantage point the Xbox lineup still looks about the same as it ever did. Just a bunch of shooters, hooters, pc ports, multiplat sports games, racers, fps', and western rpg's. Am I to believe that, since the Box has a damn plethora of awesome titles in these genres that it is somehow now attractive? I guess that I should not have even bothered responding to the many posts that I have in the last several years;) What was the point afterall. Seriously though, Zilla, think about this one. The Xbox game lineup should be a major factor as to why MS should not launch first? For the record the Xbox is at its peak, and sure that can hurt you when you are talking about launching a new system, but on the other hand...MS' name recognition in the console market has never been stronger than it is now so why not.


Putting Out 2 Separate Versions Of The Same Console

Yeah I don't really get this one either. The only thing that I can think of is that they are trying to please everyone---the techies and the average joes. I don't really see how it alienates anyone though. The money still goes in the same pocket, and it still may end up having the same effect on Sony's marketshare.



Charging Extra For Something That You'd Previously Offered For Free

Now this one really gets my goat. MS took a royal beating when they gave stuff away for free on the original Xbox. In fact, all the naysayers on this forum were quick to point that out almost daily. Now they want to do the same thing that Nintendo and Sony have been doing for years and you condemn them. Listen up Zilla. THEY ARE DOING WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO. As everyone is quick to point out---the money is in the software and the peripherals in the video game biz. MS is trying to cash in on those and stop the bleeding from the Xbox.


Charging Extra For Something the Competition Will Offer For Free

Now I agree with you on this. This one does make sense to me in terms of MS getting my gaming dollars. You have the name recognition...check. You have some respected franchises...check. You are making money on your games and extras...check. Now you really better have b/c because that is one of the most important things that a console manufacturer needs to have. The bar has already been set on that one, and standard is the only way. In fact, I have said it before and I will say it again now. If the Xbox 360 is not b/c I will probably not be buying it. I really don't think that we are going to see some huge leap in the next-gen in terms of gaming quality, so b/c is more important to me than ever. Now that is not to say that if MS screws that on up that I will be giving my biz to Nintendo or Sony. I can absolutely guarantee that I will not be buying the Revolution, and I am not sold on the PS3 either. My gaming time is so limited that I might just stick with my Xbox in thje next round. However, if the 360 is b/c then that will be the only console that Ibuy.

[Glockstar]

about XBOX. So this shouldn't concern you. Also, nobody is forcing you to buy a new console. And, MS launching early isn't affecting Sony or Nintendo. They are waiting, its not like MS' move is prompting Sony to move earlier.

Basically, you have three options if you are MS.

1. You can launch after Sony. Obviously, this is suicide.

2. You can launch head to head against Sony. This is also a bad move. Because there will be no way to compare the two systems, and people will buy based on hype and emotion, and Sony will win. People won't be able to afford two systems, so one will lose big. Also, Sony will get the jump in Japan if MS waits till Fall of 2006.

3. The last option is to launch before Sony. This is the best option. People will have time to see what XBOX 360 is all about, and have a slate of games and technology to compare against what Sony is offering. You don't have to worry about competing dollars and you also move out of a manufacturing cycle with the current XBOX that you don't want to be in. People assume Sony will have the better technology, it may be, but it won't be that much better. Sony is locked into this Cell chip, and that may or may not be the only advantage. Memory should be close to the same, the graphcs cards should be equal, will Sony make every game 720p and online aware? And Sony has to overcome development hurdles, that apparently MS has already solved, if they are ready to go.


Far as worrying about two different versions of the console, and bc, and all that other stuff. There aren't two versions, it sounds like its the same console, one will ship with the hd, the other won't, that is hardly two different versions. Secondly we don't know exactly what the HD is for, it could be that the HD is to ENABLE b/c.

Like I said before, MS is doing just fine. They seem to have thought through everything, and this system will be hard to beat. Sony can do it, but it will cost them and possibly the consumer. On top of that will their hardware be easy to master? Then it will still, hopefully, come down to the games. And MS will be throwing out their best stuff in 2006. Launching early is the smartest move.

YEAH!

That my friends... is the Post Of The Year.

[Wan-Fu]

We're now just a few scant weeks away from the unveiling of the new next generation gaming consoles. The next generation system wars are starting and if rumors are to be believed, M$ will be firing the first salvo. However, I think in doing so they've made several fatal mistakes that may cost them more customers than they gain. Here's a few:


Cutting Into The Lifespan of Your Current Console At It's Peak

The Xbox is just now hitting it's stride in tech prowess and sales/market penetration. Previously a lot of programmers were lazy by using it's PC like architecture to simply dimp the code in. Now they're scratching beneath the surface and starting to do wonderful things with it. This should have gone on for another two years. But because M$ somehow thinks that the reason they got beat by Sony was the year's difference (hint: it was a combo of b/c and the games, stupid), they're trying to cut this generation short.

Big problem with this is that, as Gadfly eloquently stated, you'll be alienating a lot of new customers who just bought an Xbox. Considering that they've had their best sales ever these last few months, this is a big mistake. I'm already hearing rumblings of dissent from sites like C.H.U.D. as well as fan based ones like Team Xbox and Xbox Solution ("but I just got an Xbox...!"). Uh Oh...

The other mistake M$ is making by forcing the next generation upon us is alienating the publishers. Yes, I know that's usually Nintendo's area. :p But seriously, two people I talked to recently, one from Vivendi, the other from Midway, were expressing concern that they were still waiting for official development kits from M$. One company doesn't want to start on the Xenon version only to have to start from scratch when M$ finally gives them the real kits. Even EA has complained about the short time M$ has given them to prep 360 Madden.


Putting Out 2 Separate Versions Of The Same Console

This, IMHO, is just plain stupid. Every recent videogame console that's tried to do this has failed: Sega 32X/Neptune, Phillips CDi (two versions), 3DO, etc. Sure, VGR zealots will know the difference but Mr. and Mrs. Average Joe (which is where most of your market $ comes from) may just be confused - and possibly angry (see below). I'm not saying M$ will fail but this is not smart. It divides your own market/userbase.


Charging Extra For Something That You'd Previously Offered For Free

Putting a HD in Xbox was one of the most ingenoius things any console manufacturer ever did. Not having to deal with memory cards and being able to use custom soundtracks was great, especially during racing games. It also gave the Xbot Technophiles a feeling of superiority over their PS2 counter parts. Well, no more. Now M$ is charging an extra $100 for a feature that was standard in the previous generation! WTF?! I could understand if the last one hadn't come with one but to charge the consumer for a built-in feature that you previously offered for free is just plain arrogant. This is something not even Nintendo would dare do. :rolleyes: It also makes M$ look cheap as well as greedy. I can just hear the angry GameStop/Walmart customers now when they're told that they need to buy memory cards or shell out an $100...or shell out almost as much for the HD perpheral. I think the average consumer may very well balk at both these options.

This will look especially bad if PS3 and Revolution come standard with hard drives. :o And from what my sources indicate, they both most likely do. Nice going, Bill.


Charging Extra For Something the Competition Will Offer For Free

This is probably the biggest dealbreaker. I don't care what MG and others say, b/c is a big deal. Especially when someone wants to upgrade to a new console. Now M$ wants to charge an extra $100 for that too. Again, considering that they're the ones pushing their previous console into oblivion, this is not smart. Sony and Nintendo have already announced that their machines will be b/c. By charging $100 for something the competition is including as standard, M$ comes off as the greedy corporation everyone loves to paint them as. Only this time they'd be right. Congratualtions, M$: you're the first console manuafcturer to actually go backwards ( by removing standard features from your next console), instead of backwards compatible. :rolleyes:


Overall, I'm distressed that M$ seems determined to squander all the goodwill they've built up with their customers the last 3 1/2 years by shooting themselves in the foot. Yes, I know Nintendo has done this; but at least with them it was a gradual decline over several generations -- not one simultaneous bout of hari kari. I understand they're panicking: last time out M$ had a huge tech edge over Sony and they still couldn't win. And from what my 3rd party associates tell me, the PS3 is leaps and bounds more powerful than 360 in AND programming ease. And you can't count Nintendo out either. They've already gone on record as saying that the console will be online with its own network -- for free. And if you don't think they'll be an appeal of playing Animal Crossing, Metroid Prime, Smash Bros., and Mario online, I'll sell you my Xbox 360 copy of Blinx 3. ;)

But the thing that really distresses me is the games. Like Gaddy stated, there's not one 360 announced launch title that couldn't be done on Xbox. Now things may change come E3, but given M$'s previous record/past experience in games, I'm not very optimistic (I don't count Morrowwind Oblivion because it's being made for all three next gen consoles). I'm the world's BIGGEST Perfect Dark fan. When my friend gave me his N64 three tyears ago, it was the only game I actually went out and tracked down. Graphics aside, I think it's light years better than BOTH Halo's. But I'll be damned if I'm going to dish out $400 just to play one game and then sit back and wait 1.5 years for a steadt stream of true next generation games (i. e. stuff you couldn't do on Xbox). Especially when there are still a lot of great ones from this generation to play.

Okay, guys, I'd like as many people as possible to weigh in on this (c'mon Glockstar, Masked, Trebor, Last Word, Waco, and Gaddy).


1. As MG said, MS HAS NO CHOICE but to launch early. Every other option is just not viable. Recent adopters be damned. Gates, Allard, and Bach are forced into a position where they have to huddle up on a street corner, roll the dice on a piece of carboard, and hope to God they hit 7 or 11. Its good for them that the dice are becoming more and more loaded with the prospect of PD, Burnout 4, next gen madden, XNA, etc, etc, but they gotta take the risk. Once people see and experience true next gen visuals, they will come in droves.

2. When confronted with great xbox features and great xbox games and the overwhelming superiority of Live, even if for a nominal fee, thousands of Sony Zombies across thousands of videogame message boards all fall back on this caveat when discussing the XBOX "AT LEAST p$2 IS MAKING T3H PROFUT!11! XSUCKS IZZ TEH FAILUR3 CUZ XSUCKS IZZ IN DET 5 BILLI0N BUCKZ0RZ

Well, even though I don't play profit, they are right to some extent. Almost everything innovative the xbox did cost money. Even though Nvidia played them with their licensing agreement, including all those extra goodies-- harddrive, etc., MS was forced to eat a lot of money per console, and that can't happen again. it just cant. Does it suck to have to buy a hard drive when i didn't have to before...well yes, but the free ride is over and I'll be damned if that gets in the way of pgr3, Halo3, etc. Besides, no one knows about b/c, just like no one knows if M systems will include a small flash drive in the box for cache(ing) purposes as it is, so talking about it now it far too speculative.

3. Let me get this straight. Sony is hemmoraging money left and right, they hire some gaijin to come in and cut costs, they demote KK, and all of a sudden, they're supposed to include Blu Ray, a large hd, and an 8 spe cell chip in a console that ships for 400 bucks?? What? If they didn't just launch the PSP, I could see it, but TWO loss leaders for a company badly in need of a tourniquet??

4. Let me get this straight. your sources tell you is the PS3 is

a. easier to program for
b. an "order of magnitude" more powerful
c. and will include a hard drive

Well, is there anything else? penicillin?? mullet cutter?? Out of all possible outcomes, could you have made this any more rosy for Sony? I gotta admit, if this all true, I'll sure as hell buy a ps3 and tip my hat to sony.

[slade]

I remember reading that in the new EGM rumor section, it was mentioned that some Japanese game developers have moved their X-box 2 projects over to the PS3 after Sony demonstrated the consoles power.

[T.Tashi]

I remember reading that in the new EGM rumor section, it was mentioned that some Japanese game developers have moved their X-box 2 projects over to the PS3 after Sony demonstrated the consoles power.
You sure know how to add fuel to the fire don't ya?

[shogun]

Hmm...A system with a bad case of sequal-itis that offers nothing above its predecessor save better graphics. Reminds me a LOT of the arguments I heard against PS2...by the same people now pimping 360. Then again, PS2 at least offered b/c, and DVD playing in addition to better graphics. That 360 is actually going backwards in gamemaking potential by ditching the HD is well, astonishing to me. Almost as astonishing as anyone thinking this neutered console is going to be any threat to PS3. MS has practically handed Sony its 3rd championship belt.

We hear plenty of talk about how great this system is going to be from the resident MS-pushers, but I still haven't heard the fundamental question answered:

What gamer is going to want 360 that didn't want XBox?

It's a question that REALLY needs answering, because as Zilla's already outlined, there are a hell of a lot of reasons why people who bought an XBox won't go for 360. I for one, am not blinded enough by the glory that is Microsoft, not to be pissed about them pulling the plug on XBox so early. In all honesty It makes me wary of 360. A company that pulls a Sega, will likely continue to pull a Sega. Does anyone expect this console will be supported by MS a whole 5 years if it isn't doing really well? Do we have buy copies of the Wall Street Journal and check daily to see if MS is in the black on the 360 before we can assume we are getting another year's worth of games? Screw that. There are plenty of awesome, cheap games on this generation's consoles that I can spend my money on. I don't know anyone outside this board, avid gamer or not, XBox owner or not, that gives a rat's ass about this console and for good reason. "Better graphics and nothing else" is old hat. If MS wants to break out of the cycle and throw their lots in with other "early launch successes" like Jaguar, 3D0 and Dreamcast they can be my guest. I'll stick with the reliable consoles.

[The Prince of Darkness]

. I'll stick with the reliable consoles.


Like the Sony consoles?

Oh my bad you were talking about reliability issues in terms of getting games out and not in terms of the actual hardware.

[trebor]

Like the Sony consoles?

Oh my bad you were talking about reliability issues in terms of getting games out and not in terms of the actual hardware.

Say what you will about the quality and reliability of Sony made hardware (it generally sucks) but if they release the PS3 next year, that will mean they gave the PS2 a generous 6 year lifespan - a full 2 years more then M$ is giving the Xbox.

2 years in Xbox terms is 50% of it's lifespan, so Sony gave earlier PS2 adopters 50% more life out their consoles then M$ is giving their fanbase :p That IS reliable.

[mandark]

Say what you will about the quality and reliability of Sony made hardware (it generally sucks) but if they release the PS3 next year, that will mean they gave the PS2 a generous 6 year lifespan - a full 2 years more then M$ is giving the Xbox.

2 years in Xbox terms is 50% of it's lifespan, so Sony gave earlier PS2 adopters 50% more life out their consoles then M$ is giving their fanbase :p That IS reliable.
And on top of that PS3 users don't need to keep their old PS2's plugged in because the PS3 can play their vast PS2 libraries. And speaking of quality and reliability my PS2 which I bought Nov '00, you know launch day, is still up and running despite its age and "unreliability" factor.

[slade]

You sure know how to add fuel to the fire don't ya?

Heh, you mean that isn't actually considered news?

[shogun]

Like the Sony consoles?

Oh my bad you were talking about reliability issues in terms of getting games out and not in terms of the actual hardware.

Hey, say what you will, I'm still waiting for reasons why I should give a crap about 360. "PS2 wasn't that reliable" falls kinda short. :o

[T.Tashi]

Heh, you mean that isn't actually considered news?
Ah... I just miss the good 'ole days.

[slade]

Yeah, so do I. Nowadays, there's nothing to do but play games. What type of life is that for a gamer, I ask you? We need to b**** and moan about other consoles.

[Fivespot]

Great post with facts to follow-up each of your comments. It's interesting to read some inside buzz on the next gen consoles so thanks for sharing.

Is it really going to cost an additional $100 for a hard drive or is that an assumption (I haven't heard that before)? Are you sure PS3 will be leaps and bounds more powerful than XBOX?

XBOX would certainly be stupid for allowing that to happen IMO. I think its to their advantage to release first as long as they have the hardware and games to back it up. The momentum is certainly shifting so it might be a good time to capitalize on that.

If they release a new Halo, DOA, Ninja Gaiden, Project Gotham Racing 3, and a next-gen Madden all at launch - they look to be set up rather well for a hard push this fall/winter. Plus, look at this list of games - all A titles with nothing to scoff at.

I'm anxious for E3 when more facts start to trickle out. Next gen certainly is fun around here (and its already beginning).

[thelastword]

I commend you on this one, you've basically summed up the many points why the Xbox 360 will be less of a contender to the playstation brand in this coming generation, and sadly enough if Xbox could'nt phase the ps2 with all it's pluses this gen, how could it's successor possibly do so with all these minuses? that my friend is the crucial question.

Despite the fact that so many xbots have written rebuttals to defend their console faith, I have detected one common fallacy in their ramblings and that's denial. first off, anyone who denies the fact that Sony will have a solid tech edge next gen is truly a dreamer, for those thinking that the cell is less than capable are really doing nothing more than spewing fourth ignorant bile-isms that will surely be swatted away come E3.

To deny that backwards compatability is a warranted plus simply because MS did not bulge in that regard reveals much about the psyche of the Xbox camp here, and further clarifies their position on things MS. If in fact though, Ms is going to charge for b/c next gen, then that's what I'd like to call preposterous.

The writing has been on the wall for quite some time now, taking a crack at everything I know so far about Xbox 360, my forecast for it is really pestilent indeed. To begin with, Ms short shifted current Xbox adopters of a further year and a half of solid software support to launch their console ahead of the PS3, why? because according to some xbots that's their only chance, their only chance of what? taking the number one(1) spot I guess, (laughs!!!), I seriously hope that was not the thought there, oh! xbot.

Next, Microsoft's xbox has been bleeding for almost 3.5 years now, how do we fix this, I know, we'll start charging our customers for everything we offered free this gen with our next xbox, we should make some good money back to buy gauze for our wounds, afterall we have many unswerving disciples on the VGR forums (laughs) note: (I'm only speaking of the Xbox division, not microsoft in general, I know theres alot of money there).

To wrap up this post, I think that the xbox 360 will be less of a contender to the PS3 for all the reasons Zilla posted and more. Though I'm not a nintendo fan per say, I believe that they will have an interesting showing at E3 come may, I have a deep-gutted feeling that they will come strong to take back their elusive silver medal. Apart from just the next gen stuff how about all the future titles that will be displayed for the PS2; Shadow of the colossus, Okami, FF12, Dirge of Cerebus, KH 2 and so many more this year we've already had GT4,DMC3,TEKKEN 5,GOW etc..also add another two or three to that list for surprise late bloomers in the PS2's ending lifespan (something which xbox have negated) and PS2 players will do nothing less but go out with a solid bang. I will tell you one thing, the remainder of this year starting with E3, appears to hold nothing but good times for PS fans everywhere.

[Horngreen]

Well if they launch alongside the PS3 and Revolution they may end up in the same boat they are now so I understand that they want a head start. If you think the PS3 will have Blu Ray and a hard drive and wireless controllers and internet hookup and the BS cell processor and come in at 299.00 your insane. It doesn't matter what Nintendo does if they still plan on relying on their plumber to do all the dirty work for them. The people who loved Mario are 25+ years old and may not still see bouncing on turtles as fun anymore. We'll have to wait and see but all the Xbox 360 need do is sell a few million and all ports to your mighty PS3 will be warmed over 360 games just like we had this gen. America is full of people keeping up with the "Jones" and morons in SUVs and out of control debt prove this. My point is 1.5 million people on LIVE have a friends list full of people they play with on a regular basis. When they sign onto LIVE and see that JOEBLOW69 is playing Perfect Dark or Halo 3 they are going to want to move up to the 360. Do you think Nintendos free online plan will be anywhere near as cool as LIVE? You get what you pay for right?

[theWacoKid]

I'm going to stay open minded on this one and let the chips fall where they may. I'm only going with one console next gen, so my choice will have to be a good one. That means, I definitely won't be picking up an xbox 360 at launch. I'll wait and see how the ps3 plays out and even the nintendo revolution. I honestly don't see myself picking up anything till 2007 so arguing about them in 2005 is rather pointless. I'll go with whoever has the best software lineup and the best bang for the buck, manufacturer be damned.

Is MS screwing it up? Well, I'll wait until the unveiling to make an appraisal. I've stated that I thought $399 was the new entry point, and I certainly wouldn't buy an xbox 360 without the hard drive. Forget about it. That kind of money means at least $500 canadian, and I've no room in my budget to accomodate a games only machine at that price point. Add an extra controller, the higher prices for games, xbox live subscription, accessories, and we're looking at a grand canadian easy.

There can be only for one for the kid, so the kids passing on all the contenders until the dust settles and a winner can be crowned. If its MS, so be it, I'll go with MS. If its sony, fine. If in the unlikely case its nintendo, well, stranger things have happened.

Right now, I've got two handhelds with three software libraries, my ps2 which I've decided I will be keeping, so that's enough gaming to keep me occupied for a good two years.

[Superjoint Ritual]

Yep... Xbox has always been a fine console, but has really come into it's own the last few months. It's really a shame M$ is so concerned with Sony. Fact of the matter is, Sony can't be touched. They have the best third-party support, and their first and second parties are really starting to get really good. M$ should just follow Nintendo's example and do their own thing for now.

All that being said, if KotOR 3 is annonced at E3 I'll be all over the 360. :)

[Zilla Man]

P.O.D. - Sorry I forgot to mention you, I stared the thread pretty late.

Please don't give me the horns!

[Zilla Man]

As I've said in previous threads, I think all three current consoles are extremely capable machines, that can produce beautiful graphics, which currently will cost less to produce games for. Personally, I'd be happy with the current consoles for many more years.

I'm hearing alot of this - not just from gamers, but from programmers/publishers as well!

I have a LOT of friends who currently own an Xbox, whom I've asked if they will be buying an Xbox2 when it's released - not a single one has stated they will. If that is a consistent trend with current Xbox owners, I see a very rough road for the system in the future.

Exactly. Like I said before, even the die hard fanatics on the Xbox sites like Xbox Solution, Xbox Nation, and the like are saying that if these "two 360" console rumors are true - they'll be switching to either PS3 or Revolution. :o

To make a broad statement here, I think many gamers take the "wait and see" approach before they'll make a console purchase. If gamers wait till all 3 next-gen systems are out, and for them to really start hitting their strides, Xbox2 could be waiting years before the bandwagon decides to join up. I think that's what happened to Dreamcast too - people just waited till PS2 came out and chose the best one, which killed it.

That's something I never even thought about, Trebor. This is especially dangerous for M$ if the PS3 is as powerful as rumored. Xbots are so into the latest tech fads, watch them jump ship when the PS3's specs are revealed too be greater.

if Xbox could'nt phase the ps2 with all it's pluses this gen, how could it's successor possibly do so with all these minuses? that my friend is the crucial question.

Summed up nicely, word! ;)

Next, Microsoft's xbox has been bleeding for almost 3.5 years now, how do we fix this, I know, we'll start charging our customers for everything we offered free this gen with our next xbox, we should make some good money back to buy gauze for our wounds.

Yeah, charge more for less.What the hell kind of strategy is that? Somewhere, Iwata and Myamoto are laughing their asses off.... :p

after all we have many unswerving disciples on the VGR forums (laughs)

Shhhhhh! Masked Gamer and Drunken Thumb might be listening! :rolleyes:

[Zilla Man]

about XBOX. So this shouldn't concern you. Also, nobody is forcing you to buy a new console.

Masked, I'd put you on my Ignore List but your ignorant rants are so far off the mark, I don't know where I'd get my daily laughs. :rolleyes:

First, you need to hear yourself - you sound like a little, spoiled child: "Wah! You never cared about XBOX. So this shouldn't concern you! Waaah!" And you call the Cube guys "kiddies"? :p

Yeah, Masked, I never cared about Xbox. That's why I went out and bought the Halo Special Edition package last may -- despite the fact that I already had an open sourced/modded one given to me by my game publisher friends.

I also hate Xbox so much that I said that M$ had the best booth at last year's E3. The hatred continued when I reported how great Doom 3, Halo 2, and Conker were. Yeah, then I really stuck it to the VGR Xbox owners by asking my friend who is an exec in the M$ Xbox games division (and runs the whole M$ booth at E3) questions forwarded to me by P.O.D., Glockstar and others regarding Xbox 360. And to make things worse, I even had my friend get me a meeting with Rare to find out more on Perfect Dark Zero.

And let's not forget my asking my friends at Vivendi, Activision, Midway, etc., about future Xbox projects and 360 games. But the biggest sign that I hate Xbox has to be my constant inquiry of my friends who work in M$'s Xbox division regarding upcoming stuff so I can share it with VGR board members. Man, how rude can a guy get? :rolleyes:

Yeah, I'm an Xbox hater alright.

But Masked, there's something you can do to help me. You can either start THINKING and presenting facts before you make foolish, ungrounded accusations. Or better yet, when I post this year's E3 column, you can put me on your Ignore List. That way, when I post my "hatred" about Xbox, 360, and the other consoles, you won't be bothered by it.

[The Prince of Darkness]

Hey, say what you will, I'm still waiting for reasons why I should give a crap about 360. "PS2 wasn't that reliable" falls kinda short. :o

Hey try telling that to the poor people that are on their third PS2. I mean I am not a Sony hater, in fact I love my PsP, but I must say that I do live in fear that it will crap out. That is a big consideration.
All that I am saying is that there are trade offs with both consoles in the reliability department. You singled out reliability, so I ran with it. As far as giving a crap about the 360 I am with you. I have a feeling that I will probably find the games that are being offered more attractive on the 360 rather than the PS3, but the possible lack of b/c is a huge turnoff for me.

[The Prince of Darkness]

Say what you will about the quality and reliability of Sony made hardware (it generally sucks) but if they release the PS3 next year, that will mean they gave the PS2 a generous 6 year lifespan - a full 2 years more then M$ is giving the Xbox.

2 years in Xbox terms is 50% of it's lifespan, so Sony gave earlier PS2 adopters 50% more life out their consoles then M$ is giving their fanbase :p That IS reliable.

Hey try telling that to the poor people that are on their third PS2. For them that is three PS2's in that six years. That theory does not hold water at that point.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Masked, I'd put you on my Ignore List but your ignorant rants are so far off the mark, I don't know where I'd get my daily laughs. :rolleyes:

First, you need to hear yourself - you sound like a little, spoiled child: "Wah! You never cared about XBOX. So this shouldn't concern you! Waaah!" And you call the Cube guys "kiddies"? :p

Yeah, Masked, I never cared about Xbox. That's why I went out and bought the Halo Special Edition package last may -- despite the fact that I already had an open sourced/modded one given to me by my game publisher friends.

I also hate Xbox so much that I said that M$ had the best booth at last year's E3. The hatred continued when I reported how great Doom 3, Halo 2, and Conker were. Yeah, then I really stuck it to the VGR Xbox owners by asking my friend who is an exec in the M$ Xbox games division (and runs the whole M$ booth at E3) questions forwarded to me by P.O.D., Glockstar and others regarding Xbox 360. And to make things worse, I even had my friend get me a meeting with Rare to find out more on Perfect Dark Zero.

And let's not forget my asking my friends at Vivendi, Activision, Midway, etc., about future Xbox projects and 360 games. But the biggest sign that I hate Xbox has to be my constant inquiry of my friends who work in M$'s Xbox division regarding upcoming stuff so I can share it with VGR board members. Man, how rude can a guy get? :rolleyes:

Yeah, I'm an Xbox hater alright.

But Masked, there's something you can do to help me. You can either start THINKING and presenting facts before you make foolish, ungrounded accusations. Or better yet, when I post this year's E3 column, you can put me on your Ignore List. That way, when I post my "hatred" about Xbox, 360, and the other consoles, you won't be bothered by it.


Grow up, this isn't high school, I could careless about being on your ignore list. Secondly, I could careless about posting facts or absolute certains. I'm posting speculation, that is what this site is for, we are fans all speculating and commenting about these toys of ours. If you have so many industry friends, then I suggest you get your "news and facts" from them, and not expect to get facts from fans. So just pipe down and let us have some fun, this isn't work for us as it appears to be for you.

Now maybe I was wrong about you caring, but that comment was also not just meant for you, but for all the people who have made it known that they don't like MS or the XBOX, if that's the case why be so concerned?

But, despite the comment, you say what I posted is lies. Instead of trying to insult me, then why don't comment with what you know to be the truth. After all if you know what i'm saying is lies, then you must know the truth. Yet you failed to post anything relevant to any thing I proposed in my post. Now, you should learn or know one thing about this site. You made thread about MS being arrogant or desperate, you gave your reasons. Don't get upset when we come back and counter your opinions with ours. I may have been off base with saying you don't care about XBOX for that I can apologize, i've been wrong before, i'll be wrong again. But as for my opinions as to why MS is not being arrogant and desperate, well it remains to be seen if its false or not. Until then i'm glad your getting a laugh from my posts, that's the idea, let loose have some fun, this is not business, its toys and games.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

While I certainly don't think XBOX 360 will off the PS3 and boot Sony out of the console business. I think it is absolutely insane to suggest that XBOX 360 will be even less of a threat this generation. I think XBOX 360 will certainly gain marketshare on PS3. XBOX is currently gaining marketshare, this just means more people are less leary of the XBOX name and MS stance in this industry.

Lastword, you also say that MS failed to takedown Sony this generation. Nobody, not even MS expected to take over this generation, so how can MS fail to do something that wasn't possible or even their goal. MS accomplished what they set out to do. Establish a market position in the console business. I don't think anyone even expected to overtake Nintendo. The fact that they became the number 2 player is a great accomplishment, even more impressive without Asia onboard.

You also talk about MS losing money. This is a billion dollar business and industry. In many businesses it can take over 5 years before you can break a profit. Of course when you come into this business fighting the market leader and a legendary company, it is going to take something special to compete. And the XBOX was the most revolutionary console in history, despite the naysayers here. So yeah MS bleed red ink for 3.5 years as you say. Big deal, MS is a world leader, they can handle it, and I don't feel bad whatsoever for them, i'm a consumer. I'm also a MS investor and as an investor I approve of what they've done so far with this division and I like where they are headed.

I don't think Sony has your sentiments though, I think they are very concerned about MS. And they probably detest MS for forcing them to do what they never wanted to do, that is build an expensive cutting edge console. I'm sure they have wrestled with things like releasing a HDD, having an online presence, getting certain games online, and making sure their console coming up is better and has everything XBOX does. I hope they get nasty and succeed.

People assume I wouldn't buy a Sony product. I have two consoles right now, they both happen to be XBOX. I'll have an XBOX 360 next generation, and if Sony is good this time around my second console could be a PS3. That's up to Sony to get my dollars, they gotta have a great system, better games on the cutting edge(not quantity and quirky), and an online service(not a presence), get all that i'm there without question. I think a lot of people will also have these expectations about Sony. And if Sony can't answer those questions XBOX 360 can, and Sony's marketshare will take a hit. Everybody knows what XBOX can and will do, Sony has to answer now.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

I'm finished with the speculation to after E3. Just about every slam against the Xbox 360 is for something that is not confirmed.

Q.Why would people switch from Sony to MS next gen
A.When both Consoles are released the Xbox 360 will have a larger library of games and with that Possibly 2 of the 3 biggest franchises in North America Madden & Halo and that's assuming that there Wont be a GTA 4.

Backwards Compatiablity I really don't know if it's that important but we don't know MS plans so what's the point.

PS3 power. Emotion Engine.

Next Gen we Know Nintendo will have something unique to distinguish itself. The Xbox 360 with the inclusion of every game being live aware and it's strong online plan is unique. What will establish the PS3 as different next gen. The Cell or all the anime games? I have no doubt that Sony will continue to be the leader but MS is here to stay.

[trebor]

Hey try telling that to the poor people that are on their third PS2. For them that is three PS2's in that six years. That theory does not hold water at that point.

You're kinda spliting hairs at this point - getting a faulty piece of hardware is the luck of the draw, ya know? I think Mandark stated he bought his PS2 on launch day and it's still running like a champ, whereas I'm sure some people have had units that have broken down.

Besides, I've heard that PS2's, Xbox's, and even GC's have been prone to breakdown, so it's a bit of a non-point.

Look at it this way though, a PS2 owner next year will have 6 years worth of games to look back on and try to find for used prices - that's a HUGE amount of titles. THIS year Xbox owners will look back and see 4 years worth of titles to try and find.

Or in other words...

Shorter lifespan = smaller game library

Now, there's reliability and reliability, whether were talking specifically about hardware integrity or the reliablity of a company to be there to support your investment.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

You're kinda spliting hairs at this point - getting a faulty piece of hardware is the luck of the draw, ya know? I think Mandark stated he bought his PS2 on launch day and it's still running like a champ, whereas I'm sure some people have had units that have broken down.

Besides, I've heard that PS2's, Xbox's, and even GC's have been prone to breakdown, so it's a bit of a non-point.

Look at it this way though, a PS2 owner next year will have 6 years worth of games to look back on and try to find for used prices - that's a HUGE amount of titles. THIS year Xbox owners will look back and see 4 years worth of titles to try and find.

Or in other words...

Shorter lifespan = smaller game library

Now, there's reliability and reliability, whether were talking specifically about hardware integrity or the reliablity of a company to be there to support your investment.


Look, you are saying that PS3 will have 6 years worth of games to stand on. The problem is the games look and play like crap for the most part, and will look awful compared to PS3 games. The other problem is why play them? Now, I know this is gray area and comes to down to personal preference and taste. But, XBOX will have more games that really are closer to nextgen. Face it HalfLife2, Rainbow6 Lockdown, Forza, Motogp3, Halo2. Plus, all the old XBOX games that you can play on XBOX LIVE. If XBOX 360 is b/c you will still be able to play SC:CT, BIA, Halo2, CC, PGR2, Crimson Skies, etc. and every other XBOX game. Now, what gives a game replay value? Online play does.

I'm not saying there won't be anything worth playing from PS2 now when PS3 hits, maybe something like God of War. But for the most part, PS2 games are so low tech, what would be the reason to go back and play them. Especially the older ones? So yeah you get 6 years, but 6 years worth of mediocre games. And I have big question, what does the PS2 have planned for the next year and half anyway? They've already shot their load with GT4, MGS3, Jak, Rachet, SOCOM4. They can't reload those games again for PS2, well, this is Sony, who knows they just might. But realistically, what have they got left for the next year and a half? Current XBOX users will be playing everything from Half-life 2 to Forza to Conker on and offline, amazing games.

[slade]

What does PS2 have coming out in the next year or so? Here's a list:

Soul Calibur 3 (exclusive)
Genji (exclusive)
Grandia 3 (exclusive)
Final Fantasy XII (exclusive)
Kingdom Hearts 2 (exclusive)
Dragon Quest VIII (exclusive)
Ratchet and Clank Deadlocked (it's an online multiplayer game along the lines of Unreal)
Jak Combat Racing (from the guys that made Crash Team Racing)
Sly Cooper 3
SOCOM 3

and finally:

Resident Evil 4

OMG, X-box just got knocked the eff out.

EDIT: I'm gonna toss in Namco X Capcom in there too 'cause I really liked the trailer.

[shogun]

I'm finished with the speculation to after E3. Just about every slam against the Xbox 360 is for something that is not confirmed.

Q.Why would people switch from Sony to MS next gen
A.When both Consoles are released the Xbox 360 will have a larger library of games and with that Possibly 2 of the 3 biggest franchises in North America Madden & Halo and that's assuming that there Wont be a GTA 4.


Madden and Halo were both on XBox. Halo 2 didn't do much to spur XBox sales, which basically means Halo3 will be selling itself to the current XBox user base and not much else. Madden will be tempting, but EA is also releasing it for current consoles, so nobody is forced to buy 360 for their Madden fix. The "larger library of games" theory didn't hold up with Dreamcast against PS2, despite the fact the former absolutely CRUSHED the latter's launch lineup. Nor did it help Saturn.

Backwards Compatiablity I really don't know if it's that important but we don't know MS plans so what's the point.

Oh, it is. It was for PS2, although Playstation had something of a more extensive library and a larger user base to sell the feature to.

Next Gen we Know Nintendo will have something unique to distinguish itself. The Xbox 360 with the inclusion of every game being live aware and it's strong online plan is unique. What will establish the PS3 as different next gen. The Cell or all the anime games? I have no doubt that Sony will continue to be the leader but MS is here to stay.

"Live aware" does not mean "Live playable". This is more likely to affect how many online scoreboards we see over how many online games there are. Both Sony and Nintendo are more serious about online this time around anyways, which again begs the question: how is 360 distinguishing itself from XBox?

This generation GC was the odd console out. You had PS2 with its massive game library, and XBox with its power, online and extra features. Now 360 is the odd console out. PS3 will likely have both the games AND the power trophy, while Revolution will be a quirky "indie" console. So where does the "less powerful, less games" 360 fit in?

[ThaMaskedGamer]

What does PS2 have coming out in the next year or so? Here's a list:

Soul Calibur 3 (exclusive)
Genji (exclusive)
Grandia 3 (exclusive)
Final Fantasy XII (exclusive)
Kingdom Hearts 2 (exclusive)
Dragon Quest VIII (exclusive)
Ratchet and Clank Deadlocked (it's an online multiplayer game along the lines of Unreal)
Jak Combat Racing (from the guys that made Crash Team Racing)
Sly Cooper 3
SOCOM 3

and finally:

Resident Evil 4

OMG, X-box just got knocked the eff out.

EDIT: I'm gonna toss in Namco X Capcom in there too 'cause I really liked the trailer.


I already mentioned SOCOM, Jak, and Rachet. Its funny though, Jak, Rachet and Sly didn't they all just come out last year? How can you be impressed? You got another FinalFantasy game Kingdom Hearts, Resident Evil 4 a GC port, and some J-rpgs. I guess the most impressive game on your list would be Soul Calibur being exclusive, that's a good one. But this line-up come on Slade, do you really think this can compare to what is happening on XBOX right now? I guess if you are a person, such as yourself, who cares not for online games, and only cars about fighting games and J-rpgs, you'll be in heaven, and that's good enough for the PS2 consumer I guess.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

What does PS2 have coming out in the next year or so? Here's a list:

Soul Calibur 3 (exclusive)
Genji (exclusive)
Grandia 3 (exclusive)
Final Fantasy XII (exclusive)
Kingdom Hearts 2 (exclusive)
Dragon Quest VIII (exclusive)
Ratchet and Clank Deadlocked (it's an online multiplayer game along the lines of Unreal)
Jak Combat Racing (from the guys that made Crash Team Racing)
Sly Cooper 3
SOCOM 3

and finally:

Resident Evil 4

OMG, X-box just got knocked the eff out.

EDIT: I'm gonna toss in Namco X Capcom in there too 'cause I really liked the trailer.

I'm not as hard on the PS2 as TMG is but that list looks horrible. Jak racing (and only because I loved CTR is appealing) Socom will probably be the biggest hit (in NA) But the rest wont have much of impact outside of Japan Dragon Quest hasn't yet made a big impact over here. FFXII should be big but does this franchise carry the weight it used too?

Ratchet and Clank what's that 4 years in a row of this? Sly Cooper? Kingdom Hearts Sony is really going after the kitties. Honestly do you think that PS2 list looks better than what's coming and has come for the Xbox a system who's successor is coming out this year? I don't know maybe for pre teens.

Soul Caliber seems cool but I rearly don't feel a need for another one this gen.

[slade]

I already mentioned SOCOM, Jak, and Rachet. Its funny though, Jak, Rachet and Sly didn't they all just come out last year? How can you be impressed? You got another FinalFantasy game Kingdom Hearts, Resident Evil 4 a GC port, and some J-rpgs. I guess the most impressive game on your list would be Soul Calibur being exclusive, that's a good one. But this line-up come on Slade, do you really think this can compare to what is happening on XBOX right now? I guess if you are a person, such as yourself, who cares not for online games, and only cars about fighting games and J-rpgs, you'll be in heaven, and that's good enough for the PS2 consumer I guess.

Jak and Ratchet are different games then they were last year. Jak is mainly a driving game and Ratchet is more online focused. Read the post my friend, the brackets aren't just for bragging purposes.

And yeah, this lineup rapes, murders and pillages whatever is happening on X-box now. Of course, I could have mentioned a ton of other games in different genres and you would probably have the same reaction.

EDIT: I love the fact that you're now equating the list I put up with lack of impact, Dubbya C. Final Fantasy XII and Kingdom Hearts 2, both of which sold millions in the U.S, don't strike you as games that will have impact? What hole did you just crawl out of?

[thelastword]

While I certainly don't think XBOX 360 will off the PS3 and boot Sony out of the console business. I think it is absolutely insane to suggest that XBOX 360 will be even less of a threat this generation. I think XBOX 360 will certainly gain marketshare on PS3. XBOX is currently gaining marketshare, this just means more people are less leary of the XBOX name and MS stance in this industry.
It's not as insane as you think, you are predicting that it will gain marketshare while I'm predicting that it will do the opposite, I guess now, time is of the essence.

Lastword, you also say that MS failed to takedown Sony this generation. Nobody, not even MS expected to take over this generation, so how can MS fail to do something that wasn't possible or even their goal. MS accomplished what they set out to do. Establish a market position in the console business. I don't think anyone even expected to overtake Nintendo. The fact that they became the number 2 player is a great accomplishment, even more impressive without Asia onboard.
Well this is great and all but that was (XBOX BLEED MONEY ver 3.5) with all it's plusses I might add, the reason why it did so well was because of it's extras, don't you understand. It's successor won't have it's advantages, as Sony is building a beast with many extras included and also nintendo is doing something different which might just gain them some new found steam, you can't exactly count them out of it. Sony might be untouchable to Ms next gen but they still have to repeat that battle with Nintendo, second place is not a certainty for them next gen.

You also talk about MS losing money. This is a billion dollar business and industry. In many businesses it can take over 5 years before you can break a profit. Of course when you come into this business fighting the market leader and a legendary company, it is going to take something special to compete. And the XBOX was the most revolutionary console in history, despite the naysayers here. So yeah MS bleed red ink for 3.5 years as you say. Big deal, MS is a world leader, they can handle it, and I don't feel bad whatsoever for them, i'm a consumer. I'm also a MS investor and as an investor I approve of what they've done so far with this division and I like where they are headed.
I agree with you sir, you don't feel bad for them because this gen they were like your bigger, older, tougher brother who took all your hits and bled for you. You think they're invincible unh!! Do you think that they would like to leak forever ?, Well it appears that your would be older tougher brother is tired of taking your hits and will leave you in the line of fire next gen. I hope these sentiments of yours will be maintained then.


I don't think Sony has your sentiments though, I think they are very concerned about MS. And they probably detest MS for forcing them to do what they never wanted to do, that is build an expensive cutting edge console. I'm sure they have wrestled with things like releasing a HDD, having an online presence, getting certain games online, and making sure their console coming up is better and has everything XBOX does. I hope they get nasty and succeed.

People assume I wouldn't buy a Sony product. I have two consoles right now, they both happen to be XBOX. I'll have an XBOX 360 next generation, and if Sony is good this time around my second console could be a PS3. That's up to Sony to get my dollars, they gotta have a great system, better games on the cutting edge(not quantity and quirky), and an online service(not a presence), get all that i'm there without question. I think a lot of people will also have these expectations about Sony. And if Sony can't answer those questions XBOX 360 can, and Sony's marketshare will take a hit. Everybody knows what XBOX can and will do, Sony has to answer now.
According to you it's all smooth sailing for MS and Sony's is the one to do all the catching up, right? You really believe that Xbox has set the bar eh! Well I'll be dammed. I guess I will say nothing further about this, E3 will have to DO THE TALKING.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Jak and Ratchet are different games then they were last year. Jak is mainly a driving game and Ratchet is more online focused. Read the post my friend, the brackets aren't just for bragging purposes.

And yeah, this lineup rapes, murders and pillages whatever is happening on X-box now. Of course, I could have mentioned a ton of other games in different genres and you would probably have the same reaction.

I'v read about the new Jak and Ratchet games. I said I was looking forward to the Jak game. If the online portion of Up your Arsenal is anything to go buy then no thankyou to the new Ratchet game give me Conker! Sly give me Psychonauts or oddworld! Final Fantasy XII, Dragon Quest VIII no thanks give me Jade Empire, Xmen legends 2 (multiplat online). Kingdom Hearts no thanks give me whatever Dreamworks or Pixar is putting in the theatres this year (I know that's not fair). Honestly the line up you name looked kiddy and boring. Why would any Xbox owner with BB play Socom over the numerous military online shooters on the Xbox.

God of War is one of the best games of the year I loved it and I'll be shocked SHOCKED! I tell you if the PS2 has anything nearly as compelling for the rest of the year. Hell I'd rather play Zelda on the Cube over any of those games.

Oh and if you want to count watered down ports as an advantage I'd take Half-life 2 over RE4 anyday.

[slade]

You actually thought God of War was one of the best games this year? I played that game and to me, it was actually sorta mediocre. I liked Devil May Cry 3 a lot better. It had a better combo system and a whole hell of a lot more to experiment with.

And a big :rolleyes: to the rest of your post. Kiddy and boring indeed. And you guys wonder why the whole boobs and blood comparison comes up so much.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

EDIT: I love the fact that you're now equating the list I put up with lack of impact, Dubbya C. Final Fantasy XII and Kingdom Hearts 2, both of which sold millions in the U.S, don't strike you as games that will have impact? What hole did you just crawl out of?

I actually didn't know if FF was still doing huge numbers to tell you the truth. I knew it was big on the PS1 but I didn't know if it had that same appeal especially since the reception of FFX-2 and FFX1 were luke warm. I have no idea what the FFCC on the GC did either but it didn't seem to impact them much.

I was joking about Kingdom Hearts I may actually have to end up getting that for my daughter. But I don't think it's a good game (the first one anyway) and as an adult it doesn't really appeall to me. This coming from someone who couldn't stop laughing at Robots! the movie.

[slade]

FFX and X2 both did well in N. America. Much better then most heavily hyped X-box games.

Also, it's curious that Genji has been ignored thus far. I like the looks of that game. There's also goin to be a new Onimusha which is also sort of a gameplay departure from previous games.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

You actually thought God of War was one of the best games this year? I played that game and to me, it was actually sorta mediocre. I liked Devil May Cry 3 a lot better. It had a better combo system and a whole hell of a lot more to experiment with.

And a big :rolleyes: to the rest of your post. Kiddy and boring indeed. And you guys wonder why the whole boobs and blood comparison comes up so much.

I haven't played DMC yet. God of War the combat was over rated I thought but I liked the puzzles and the story. The game just had a certain feel to it. I actually *bought* this game and didn't take it back yet. It may be the first single player game that I replay since MGS on the PS1.

I really don't argue the boobs and blood comparison of the xbox because those are the kinds of games I like! I'm fully aware that the Xbox is Spiketv and not the Sundance Channnel that's cool with me! I'm upset that Sony buthchered Syphon Filter and have yet to make suitable replacement for it yet. But the put crap like "eeko" ico or whatever. That should tell about the games I like right there.

[slade]

The production values for God of War were through the roof and it definately had a great soundtrack that intensified the mood of the game. Devil May Cry 3 has good production values and the choreography of the action in cutscenes is top notch but overall, the production isn't as good as God of War's. The soundtrack is up for debate as the music in DMC3 has lyrics but the main battle theme becomes repetitive. Still, I enjoyed it and after a while, I don't notice the music in games anyway.

I agree with you about Syphon Filter. I enjoyed the first two games on PSX, never did get to the third one and passed up the PS2 one altogether since it was mainly online. Sony needs to revamp 989 completely because they are the weak link in their first party studios.

[trebor]

Look, you are saying that PS3 will have 6 years worth of games to stand on. The problem is the games look and play like crap for the most part, and will look awful compared to PS3 games. The other problem is why play them? Now, I know this is gray area and comes to down to personal preference and taste. But, XBOX will have more games that really are closer to nextgen. Face it HalfLife2, Rainbow6 Lockdown, Forza, Motogp3, Halo2. Plus, all the old XBOX games that you can play on XBOX LIVE. If XBOX 360 is b/c you will still be able to play SC:CT, BIA, Halo2, CC, PGR2, Crimson Skies, etc. and every other XBOX game. Now, what gives a game replay value? Online play does.

I'm not saying there won't be anything worth playing from PS2 now when PS3 hits, maybe something like God of War. But for the most part, PS2 games are so low tech, what would be the reason to go back and play them. Especially the older ones? So yeah you get 6 years, but 6 years worth of mediocre games. And I have big question, what does the PS2 have planned for the next year and half anyway? They've already shot their load with GT4, MGS3, Jak, Rachet, SOCOM4. They can't reload those games again for PS2, well, this is Sony, who knows they just might. But realistically, what have they got left for the next year and a half? Current XBOX users will be playing everything from Half-life 2 to Forza to Conker on and offline, amazing games.

Jeez man, make up your mind - either b/c is important or it isn't (which, by the way, it IS important if you need a hint.)

Look at how the DS is faring against the PSP if you don't believe me. The PSP launched later, with better graphics, la la la, and with a larger launch line-up compared to the DS.

Yet the DS is holding it's own, because of the b/c to the GBA, thus giving DS owners 100s of titles to hold them over till the REAL games start coming out. PSP owners will have to just watch Spidey 2 for the 100th time while they're waiting.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Madden and Halo were both on XBox. Halo 2 didn't do much to spur XBox sales, which basically means Halo3 will be selling itself to the current XBox user base and not much else. Madden will be tempting, but EA is also releasing it for current consoles, so nobody is forced to buy 360 for their Madden fix. The "larger library of games" theory didn't hold up with Dreamcast against PS2, despite the fact the former absolutely CRUSHED the latter's launch lineup. Nor did it help Saturn.

DC didn't have EA! And after the launch they blew there marketing budget. Besides EA the DC didn't have good 3rd party support period. What numbers are you using to say that Halo 2 didn't spur Xbox sales this holiday the Xbox outsold the PS2. Plus hardware moving games generally only come out in the first 2 years or so. After that it's mainly about the best overall libraires. Anyway I play in a Madden league (not and internet league) Most of the players in the league were sold on the 360 saturday as soon as they saw the commercial on the draft. Back to Halo how many Xboxes did the first one sell.



Oh, it is. It was for PS2, although Playstation had something of a more extensive library and a larger user base to sell the feature to. [/qoute]

You dont this. It's speculation. Anyway we don't know if the Xbox will have BC or not so I'm not going to argue the point. (which it will and for the same price as a PS3 :p }


[[QUOTE=shogun]
"Live aware" does not mean "Live playable". This is more likely to affect how many online scoreboards we see over how many online games there are. Both Sony and Nintendo are more serious about online this time around anyways, which again begs the question: how is 360 distinguishing itself from XBox?

You don't know even know what live aware means. Anyway the Xbox 360 just like the current one will be seen as the online console despite the truth of it. It's online functionality is what set the Xbox apart. Go read up on some of the features for next gen Xbox live to see what I meant.


This generation GC was the odd console out. You had PS2 with its massive game library, and XBox with its power, online and extra features. Now 360 is the odd console out. PS3 will likely have both the games AND the power trophy, while Revolution will be a quirky "indie" console. So where does the "less powerful, less games" 360 fit in?

That's just a dumb statement. I'm not going to ever argue that the Xbox will out Sell the PS3 this gen or next. But the odd console out? Get off the internet and enter the real world. The xbox brand is out there it's hardly the odd man out. As for the power while I appreciated it this gen it doesn't matter over all it never has why would it now? Because T3H CELL ROXXORS! GO SONY!

[The Prince of Darkness]

Now, there's reliability and reliability, whether were talking specifically about hardware integrity or the reliablity of a company to be there to support your investment.

This is exactly the point that I have been making. In my mind there is a trade-off when I compare both companies' next-gen machines. I really don't worry about my Xbox crapping out the same way that I worry about my Sony products crapping out. On the other hand I don't worry about Sony the company crapping out on the video game biz the same way that I worry about MS crapping out on the video game biz. Is one worry worse than the other? I don't think so. I think they are pretty equal and legitimate concerns. That is why I really may buy neither in the next round. That is a very real possibility for me.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Jeez man, make up your mind - either b/c is important or it isn't (which, by the way, it IS important if you need a hint.)

Look at how the DS is faring against the PSP if you don't believe me. The PSP launched later, with better graphics, la la la, and with a larger launch line-up compared to the DS.

Yet the DS is holding it's own, because of the b/c to the GBA, thus giving DS owners 100s of titles to hold them over till the REAL games start coming out. PSP owners will have to just watch Spidey 2 for the 100th time while they're waiting.

Its a feature that I believe gamers want, but for the most part rarely end up using. I don't care about the handheld's, that's a different ball game. Nintendo GC is not backward compatiable, but nobody started a revolution because of that. The fact is gamers understood why GC was not b/c, because they went from cartridge to disc. MS is also making major changes to their console, that should have prohibited b/c. When PS2 first came out, it had horrible games for the better part of a year. Now, maybe b/c was important in this case, but I still don't believe a lot of people were concerned with their old games. I could be wrong.

The real point is this, if a new console has really great games, gamers will forgive the lack of b/c. Nobody was crying, not one single person on this board, that GC wasn't b/c. All they wanted to do was play Luigi's Mansion and Rogue Squadron, I never heard one complaint. Of course, Nintendo get's more free passes and is forgiven for much more than MS XBOX is.

With all that said, is it important, YES. From a marketing point of view. But not a gaming point of view. Marketing says because of guys like you, you have to include to satiate people like you, even though 6 months later the average person won't be using the feature, and one year later it will be completely forgotten, except the cost remain for the manufacturer.

I'll give u an example. Forza will be the last game I buy for XBOX. When XBOX 360 comes out, I CAN KEEP MY XBOX AND CONTINUE TO PLAY FORZA if XBOX 360 is not b/c. Do you freaking understand this concept. I do not have to throw away my XBOX.

But rejoice, MS care about marketing, so they are including b/c. Since they are including it, of course i'll take advantage of it. I'm not gonna look a gift horse in the mouth. But, if they didn't include it, I would not hesitate one heart beat on a decision, it wouldn't even factor into my decision.

Now, you explain how you can forgive Nintendo for the GC not being b/c, but you blast MS. Hell it was more than forgiving Nintendo, it wasn't even a concern. That's pure hipocrisy! Again, a lot of you guys ACT like you are truly considering MS, but its all B/S. A lot of you guys hate the company but try and act like your non-biased. If the shoe fits wear it.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Jak and Ratchet are different games then they were last year. Jak is mainly a driving game and Ratchet is more online focused. Read the post my friend, the brackets aren't just for bragging purposes.

And yeah, this lineup rapes, murders and pillages whatever is happening on X-box now. Of course, I could have mentioned a ton of other games in different genres and you would probably have the same reaction.

EDIT: I love the fact that you're now equating the list I put up with lack of impact, Dubbya C. Final Fantasy XII and Kingdom Hearts 2, both of which sold millions in the U.S, don't strike you as games that will have impact? What hole did you just crawl out of?

Sorry I offended you, but that lineup is garbage compared to what XBOX has done and is doing the rest of the year. Its a line up geared for kids and j-rpg fans. For a ps2 game to sell a few million is expected, the installed base is north of 50 million. I don't think though the hardcore 18-35 year old US male is going to get hyped up for some mascot based shooting games and J-Anime rpgs, especially ones getting long in the tooth like Final Fantasy. On the other hand, the prospect of Forza which will do what GT4 couldn't do, Doom3, SC:CT(please don't mention the PS2 version), Jade Empire, Conker, Pariah, Half-life 2, Rainbow 6 Lockdown, etc. those are meaty games that your average blood thirsty American male can sink his teeth into. And you wanna come back with Rachet and Clank, Slade you can't be serious.

Its funny how Sony is not taken seriously anymore for shooters and action games. Thank goodness they came back with God of War cause it was close to being all over for them. But in terms of shooters they have to fall back on mascot and cartoonish characters. And online games nobody serious about online gaming is concerned with what PS2 is doing now, if you dabble online PS2 will satisfy you. The question remains, will PS3 get serious about online play nextgen.

I'll let you get back to Street Fighter now. Go Blanka!

[ThaMaskedGamer]

It's not as insane as you think, you are predicting that it will gain marketshare while I'm predicting that it will do the opposite, I guess now, time is of the essence.


Well this is great and all but that was (XBOX BLEED MONEY ver 3.5) with all it's plusses I might add, the reason why it did so well was because of it's extras, don't you understand. It's successor won't have it's advantages, as Sony is building a beast with many extras included and also nintendo is doing something different which might just gain them some new found steam, you can't exactly count them out of it. Sony might be untouchable to Ms next gen but they still have to repeat that battle with Nintendo, second place is not a certainty for them next gen.


I agree with you sir, you don't feel bad for them because this gen they were like your bigger, older, tougher brother who took all your hits and bled for you. You think they're invincible unh!! Do you think that they would like to leak forever ?, Well it appears that your would be older tougher brother is tired of taking your hits and will leave you in the line of fire next gen. I hope these sentiments of yours will be maintained then.



According to you it's all smooth sailing for MS and Sony's is the one to do all the catching up, right? You really believe that Xbox has set the bar eh! Well I'll be dammed. I guess I will say nothing further about this, E3 will have to DO THE TALKING.


Yeah, I guess there's two way to look at it. I kinda look at like this, Sony was lucky this generation. They succeeded based on loyalty. That loyalty will only last so long. Sony does have a lot to prove. They have a lot to prove to developers and to gamers. Developers have to know if this system will be easy to develop for. Your loyal Sony following believes in their heart this system will be a beast! But if its not a beast, I don't think they will sign up for another 6 years of getting kicked around by XBOX 360, always having the weakest games, longer in development, minus features, etc etc etc. Now, who do they have to prove this to? Not the sheep, the sheep will step up hook line and sinker. But the average american gun thirsty, blood thirsty, tech thirsty, hate to be in last, love to be in first, guy will be the first ones to jump over to XBOX 360 if PS3 sux azz. Also more and more, guys are gonna wanna play online and Sony has to do something there.

What does MS have to prove? Nothing. Everybody knows MS is going to have a tech powerhouse, using proven hardware. Developers know the system will be developer friendly and are already hard at work on it. Gamers know MS will be coming with some hard hitting games and a dominant online network. Both current XBOX owners and current PS2 owners know this. The current hardcore PS2 users will give PS3 the benefit of the doubt, they will wait and see, but if PS3 drops the ball, they will fall back to XBOX.

Nintendo gets left out. Not much more I can say on that. Don't count out significant numbers of PC users also jumping over to XBOX 360 or PS3 for that matter. As console dominant in power and pc developers jump ship or release on consoles prior to PC, they will jump. When the Far Cry 2's and Unreals and Half-life 3's debut on consoles, with better features pc guys will be moving on over.

Do I expect XBOX 360 to win, no I don't. I think Sony will have a console in the PS3 that is not going to be the beast we all think. I think the masses will stick with PS3. But I think a good number will leap over to XBOX 360. I think Sony is going to let gamers down online, developers are going to find the hardware a nightmare. In the end, I think PS3 will outsell XBOX 360 2 to 1.

[trebor]

Now, you explain how you can forgive Nintendo for the GC not being b/c, but you blast MS. Hell it was more than forgiving Nintendo, it wasn't even a concern. That's pure hipocrisy! Again, a lot of you guys ACT like you are truly considering MS, but its all B/S. A lot of you guys hate the company but try and act like your non-biased. If the shoe fits wear it.

Well, let's see, in order for the GC to have been backwards compatibile, there would have had to have been a HARDWARE adjustment to allow the GC to accept cartridges. I'd tried putting my old copy of Donkey Kong Country for SNES in my GC's disc drive, and let me tell you, it didn't work right.

Whereas, now here's going to be a wacky concept for you to explore, the Xbox2 would require SOFTWARE to allow for b/c. That is, of course, if M$ wasn't going to be a mizer and put in the HDD standard - and I bet they could even figure out how to make b/c work with memory cards too. Software can be kooky like that. Not to mention, once the software code is written and integrated to the Xbox2 OS, there would be no futher additional cost to M$.

Either way, your comparison is totally irrelevant, as the Revolution, by all accounts, is going to be DRASTICALLY different to the GC hardware and it's STILL going to include b/c.

Also, the reason why b/c is important to ME, is because I'd LIKE to start playing Xbox games, but I don't want to have to spend $150 for a 6 - month system, or $400+ - do you get it now? I actually want to have an Xbox, but M$ is being fricken stupid by releasing too early.

Which, by the by, to tie in with Zilla's original sentiment, is a sign of pure DESPERATION. If they weren't desperate, their hands wouldn't be forced by Sony, and could release Xbox2 whenever they wanted to.

[T.Tashi]

Sorry I offended you, but that lineup is garbage compared to what XBOX has done and is doing the rest of the year. Its a line up geared for kids and j-rpg fans. For a ps2 game to sell a few million is expected, the installed base is north of 50 million. I don't think though the hardcore 18-35 year old US male is going to get hyped up for some mascot based shooting games and J-Anime rpgs, especially ones getting long in the tooth like Final Fantasy. On the other hand, the prospect of Forza which will do what GT4 couldn't do, Doom3, SC:CT(please don't mention the PS2 version), Jade Empire, Conker, Pariah, Half-life 2, Rainbow 6 Lockdown, etc. those are meaty games that your average blood thirsty American male can sink his teeth into. And you wanna come back with Rachet and Clank, Slade you can't be serious.

Its funny how Sony is not taken seriously anymore for shooters and action games. Thank goodness they came back with God of War cause it was close to being all over for them. But in terms of shooters they have to fall back on mascot and cartoonish characters. And online games nobody serious about online gaming is concerned with what PS2 is doing now, if you dabble online PS2 will satisfy you. The question remains, will PS3 get serious about online play nextgen.

I'll let you get back to Street Fighter now. Go Blanka!
That's why there's such a lack of diversity on Xbox. Shooter and racers is the consoles forte. M$ threw in a few half assed platformers and a handful (literally) of American style RPGs and a little of this and that in a feeble attempt to compete. But like any good drug dealer knows what addicts are buying, M$ knows what sells on Xbox.

Xbox is full of genre addicts. That is:

"Players specialize in genres. A hardcore gamer may focus all their efforts on FPS, and disdain anything vaguely associated with RTS games. Players specialize in each one of these categories primarily due to player conditioning. Players need to acclimate to a game before they get their addiction rush. Throw a user in front of a FPS for the first time and they will be clumsy and confused. The psychological rewards are not easily recognizable and the 'fun' factor is questionable.

Throw them in front of the second or third FPS that they've played and they will immediately start partaking in the psychological rewards. They'll gleefully look forward to discovering the next weapon or mowing down a cool boss. The pathways of repetitions, reward, and addiction are pre-burned and ready for use."


What has this resulted in??


"The last thing that the gaming public wants is an innovative game. The vast majority of paying customers are raving hardcore genre addicts that give a wide berth to anything that won't give them a guaranteed fix."


So for Xbox games to do well, they can't be innovative. Or at least they can't be too innovative. So it's no wonder that Xbots turn their noses up at the diverse list of titles on the PS2. :D

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Well, let's see, in order for the GC to have been backwards compatibile, there would have had to have been a HARDWARE adjustment to allow the GC to accept cartridges. I'd tried putting my old copy of Donkey Kong Country for SNES in my GC's disc drive, and let me tell you, it didn't work right.

Whereas, now here's going to be a wacky concept for you to explore, the Xbox2 would require SOFTWARE to allow for b/c. That is, of course, if M$ wasn't going to be a mizer and put in the HDD standard - and I bet they could even figure out how to make b/c work with memory cards too. Software can be kooky like that. Not to mention, once the software code is written and integrated to the Xbox2 OS, there would be no futher additional cost to M$.

Either way, your comparison is totally irrelevant, as the Revolution, by all accounts, is going to be DRASTICALLY different to the GC hardware and it's STILL going to include b/c.

Also, the reason why b/c is important to ME, is because I'd LIKE to start playing Xbox games, but I don't want to have to spend $150 for a 6 - month system, or $400+ - do you get it now? I actually want to have an Xbox, but M$ is being fricken stupid by releasing too early.

Which, by the by, to tie in with Zilla's original sentiment, is a sign of pure DESPERATION. If they weren't desperate, their hands wouldn't be forced by Sony, and could release Xbox2 whenever they wanted to.


What does MS releasing early have to do with b/c? And if you want to play XBOX games, then buy an XBOX and play XBOX games. You haven't said you want to play XBOX 360 games or want to support XBOX 360. So buy an XBOX, it shouldn't concern you what the XBOX 360 does. In other words, let's assume your a Nintendo guy. Then chances are NextGen you will buying a Revolution, not an XBOX 360. So it would make sense for you to buy the current XBOX and buy a Revolution next generation. I mean if you have a GC and you've never bought a $150 XBOX yet, I think its unreasonable to think you are considering buying both Revolution and XBOX 360 at full price in 2006. I also think its unreasonable given your past views, that you would buy an XBOX 360 over a Revolution.

Your acceptance of GC not being backward compatiable, should also apply to XBOX 360. Even though the changes aren't as tangible to see as a switch from cartridge to disc, the changes are actually greater going from XBOX to XBOX 360. They are changing the processor, the graphics card manufacturer, and removing the hardrive, they are embedding memory on the same die as the processor. Sure its gonna be done using software emulation, but its not free. This is a significant cost that will be amortized over the life of the console. They don't write these things off after one year or quater.

But this is practically all a moot point. XBOX 360 will likely be backward compatiable, this is the second source to say so, and this is coming real close to what will be revealed May 12th. All these secrets are being leaked cause as information is diseminated, its going to spill. So if you are serious about wanting to play XBOX games, then get the XBOX 360 will be the smartest move, cause in all likely hood, whatever is motivating you to now want play XBOX games will likely motivate you to want XBOX 360 games. You can't use cost as a factor either. The XBOX 360 including a hardrive is not going to cost more than a PS3, in fact, I woudn't be surprised if the combo ends up being cheaper. You are looking at the PSP having a tag of $249. Now you want a console to be $299 and include a hardrive, BlueRay playback, an expensive proprietary chip, possibly Nvidia graphic card, Nvidia of all people, the one's breaking MS' back, wireless controllers, maybe wi-fi compatiability, and possibly Sony might have an online service. You really think all of that is going to be $299, nope, no freakin' way. So you will end up paying $400. Either way.

Lastly, its not a move if desperation. Sony will have Japan on lockdown five months later. Remember, MS has to compete and do something in Japan. So they can't