When did this FedEX thing for RPGs begin?

[Mochan]

I'm so starved for a PC RPG! Vampire left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. Brilliant as it was, I still need a PC two generations in the future before I'm going to be playing this game at framerates I can enjoy.

Since nothing else was playing I decided to go back to NWN and try out the expansion packs I never played. Considering that I never even finished the campagin for the original game, I wondered what made me think the Expansions would satisfy me.

Anyway a few hours into the Shadows of Undrenthingee I got sick of the game again, especially after I put in weapon specialization and focus on Whip (since I was in a Castlevania mood) and finding out that there isn't a damn whip in the game! Or at least not that I've found.

I realized once again that having all these FedEx quests running around was making me sick more than I should be. Well anyway because of this I felt like reading some NWN reviews to see what people thought of the game.

So I came across this review
http://www.gamershell.com/reviews/NeverwinterNightsReview.shtml

And it's funny! It talks about the first real D&D game to work being Baldur's Gate. And even traces its genealogy to Fallout! Why I cannot imagine because the two have nothing to do with each other. -_-;

The review gave me a good laugh at trying to give some historical perspective to D&D games but failing to mention all the old SSI goldbox games. I remembered how much I enjoyed the old SSI goldbox games despite the really bad graphics, compared to the current crop of stuff. I attribute this mainly to the fact that the old Goldbox games had a pretty good tactical combat engine in spite of everything else. The combat was very enjoyable, and these games were dungeon hacks! Not only that, the rules were implemented 100% accurately, something which the Bioware games couldn't do!

But beyond that, I realized something else: these old goldbox games weren't FedEx fests! It's true! These games actually relied on having one solid linear story, telling it properly (despite having to look into your manual to circumvent the damn copy protection) without bogging you down with having to fetch the old woman next door's cat from a tree for some piddly experience (and similar quests).

So I got to thinking, where exactly did this trend for FedEx quest RPGs come about? Anyone know the answer? I think Ultima IV started it. Though I think it wasn't been as bad as it is today back then.

Today the signature of the American RPG is FedEx quests galore. It's sickening. Somehow I didn't get to sick of it back in the Ultima Days. But these days everything Bioware churns out is so full of it I can't stand it.

But what started it? How do you think games evolved from dungeon hacks like the goldbox games, Might and Magic games, and Wizardry games, to the FedEx games of today? And why is it that people are apparently thinking these FedEx games actually let you do more "role playing" than the previous dungeon hack "roll playing"?

And which do you prefer? Role Playing or Roll Playing?

[Aku]

I've always liked the Might and Magic games. I have another game of MM7 going that I should go back and finish sometime. Wizardy 8 is good if you have the patience for it. The emphasis is on turn-based combat, and has a real tight story with quests that are mostly tied to the main storyline.

[Mochan]

Wizardry 8 is great. Great game, better than everything else in the series before it, and IMO the best of all the old school RPGs (Might and Magic included!).

The M&M games above 6 just didn't seem to click with me; the old school version worked for me better, or maybe it's just because MM7,8 & 9 just had such god-awful graphics. -_-;

Wiz8 is the way. Yeah, it has no fedex quests, or at least you don't feel like you're doing FedEx quests. It isn't really because it ties in with the story; technically all RPGs and fantasy stories and such make use of some kind of FedEx mechanic (since quests are the lifeblood of a fantasy).

The difference is that Wiz8 and other dungeon hacks are like 1 part FedEx quest and 40 parts combat/40 parts epic proportion. The typical FedEx Fest on the other hand is like 90 parts FedEx and 10 parts everything else. You're just inundated with FedEx quests that your quest log is full of them. Practically every junk NPC you come across the way whines about some delivery he or she needs to make but doesn't have the time to do (despite the fact that they don't do anything but stand in the same spot all day forever).

Wiz8 and others of its ilk know how to space out the quests such that you don't get sick of them. FedEx fests and their ilk... well... don't.

I'm hoping Elder Scrolls 4 manages to fix what Morrowind got horribly wrong: the combat. Morrowind had way too many FedEx quests too, so much that it became meaningless. And the combat was so simplistic that it couldn't provide any entertainment in between the delivery runs. Not to mention most of that combat is against freaking Cliff Racers!

They say Oblivion will fix the combat system, it's about time. And the Radiant AI sounds like what Ultima 7 used to, and then some. I'm so excited about Oblivion, but with the uber great graphics I hope I don't have to put out amortgage for a new gaming machine to handle it.

[Aku]

Wizardry 8 is great. Great game, better than everything else in the series before it, and IMO the best of all the old school RPGs (Might and Magic included!).

I'm hoping Elder Scrolls 4 manages to fix what Morrowind got horribly wrong: the combat. Morrowind had way too many FedEx quests too, so much that it became meaningless. And the combat was so simplistic that it couldn't provide any entertainment in between the delivery runs. Not to mention most of that combat is against freaking Cliff Racers!

My favorite battle in Wizardry 8 was in the Rapax camp. I had this huge battle that lasted about twenty minutes and thought I was done, then when I ducked into a tent combat initiated again and a whole pack of Rapax trapped me inside. By the time it was all over a couple of my party were barely alive, I was just about totally depleted, the ground was littered with dead Rapax and the whole fight lasted about an hour!

And.....I hate Cliff Racers!!!

[Suicides-by-Steve]

Eh, you're too picky Mochan... you're a mess of contradictions actually. You complain that you don't like the FedEx style gameplay, but inherently, that's what roleplaying games are all about. You're either trying to save the princess, the world, or the universe, and all these endgame "quests" require steps in the process. Any movie you watch doesn't have the main character just magically coming about to a conclusion of why he's doing what he's done previously- it requires steps. Of course, I'm sure we're just getting our definition mixed up between FedEx, epic (?), and Combat questing as you put it, so excuse me if I'm a little off target.

Then you say that the old SSI games were supurb, because of their tactical goodness, but earlier this week you complained that Temple of Elemental Evil was too slow; yet that game is the epiphany of tactical gaming. The reason why those game rules where so accurate, was because they were technically turn-based games, with simpler rulesets. Real-time 3D games require a few more bending of the rules in order to make certain processes work. As well, I would argue the point that splash damage wasn't implemented too well in the case of Fireballs and such (however, I could be wrong) in those early games. It's easy to say that a Fireball or Lightening Bolt went off correctly when dealing with 2 dimensions. Adding a third dimension requires a bit more planning. Try playing NWN in a party with the HCR set turned on... You'll see just how well splash damage works... on friends as well as foes, it defintiely requires a bit more thought on the part of MU characters.

Being a pretty hardcore D&D player, I can say the NWN engine isn't as bad as you seem to make it out to be. I suggest if you want a hardcore RPG server, try City Of Arabel... it's all about the roleplay there, and there are few FedEx quests at all! It should be a great server for you, especially since it takes literally months to reach 10th level. Your analogy between roll/role playing is on shaky ground, since most of the better games out there offer a selection of both, and don't discount the other. If you have a better idea, what is it? Do you want a game more like Planescape, or Fallout? If I want to roleplay, I'll hit my favourite NWN server and roleplay (or I'll read a book), and if I want hack and slash, I can make do with the same game, or a countless slew of others on the market... The servers I play on constantly have DM run event's that rarely include running to get a package for someone, and I guess are Epic in their scale. The server I play on devides players by alignment, and offer great battles and encounters that can really change the lay of the land in the long run.

Finally, dumping SoU because of a silly selection of Feats is not too fair either. If you have the manuals, you should have realised this earlier... not to mention that same character you have in SoU can be imported into HotU, where there are indeed whips, and Dwarven Waraxes (the game in which these iems where first implemented into the rules, and thus first seen in-game). SoU has you advancing to level 14 or so, while HotU sees you getting another 20 or so levels, so your selection thus far will not impact your character for the majority of your characters' life.

[Renzatic Gear]

It's not so much the fed-ex quests themselves that are bad, it's how well they're done that's the issue here.

Case in point:

Boring fed-ex quest: Hey, I got this package full of Dust of Awesomeness +1 that has to be brought to Ther'ran'dal'lon of the Skybear Elf Clan on the other side of the world. Go march over to him and get +200 experience.

Good fed-ex quests: Any of the fed-ex quests from what I've seen in Bloodlines so far...I don't even realise they're fed-ex quests til I think about em. The secret is to not make it seem like you're just an errand boy, slap some interesting stuff in the middle to liven things up a bit.

[Suicides-by-Steve]

It's not so much the fed-ex quests themselves that are bad, it's how well they're done that's the issue here.

Case in point:

Boring fed-ex quest: Hey, I got this package full of Dust of Awesomeness +1 that has to be brought to Ther'ran'dal'lon of the Skybear Elf Clan on the other side of the world. Go march over to him and get +200 experience.

Good fed-ex quests: Any of the fed-ex quests from what I've seen in Bloodlines so far...I don't even realise they're fed-ex quests til I think about em. The secret is to not make it seem like you're just an errand boy, slap some interesting stuff in the middle to liven things up a bit.

Well, I think it's definitely a matter of opinion and preference. Once in a while FedEx quests are called for and necessary, while too many of them kill a game. However, I hate those "epic" quests, where certain areas must be completed, or feats earned, gained, or accomplished before the game is allowed to progress... I feel in this case that I'm on rails. However, it's also a necessary evil, so as long as the game doesn't consist entirely of that, I'm not too bad. I find for one, that quests sometimes take too much time in one locale for instance, and I begin to get a little restless...

I think many good RPG games add a little interaction along the way, in order to break up the humdrum of most quests- FedEx or otherwise... anything else, like you astutely noted, and it becomes stale. The sidetracks allow for confusion, realism, and micromanaging of quest details and Journals... the equivilent of needing to map your own progress in dungeons in the days of yore.

[Hieremias]

I didn't have any complaints with the quests in Morrowind. The world was so huge and enjoyable to explore that the delivery boy missions didn't seem too annoying. And besides, I think you're overstating just how many FedEx quests there were. There were many other tasks given, from killing people to finding lost treasure to impersonating a House Redoran member to releasing the ghost from a haunted house.

I have to wonder how loose your "FedEx quest" definition is. Obviously any Thieves' Guild quest will involve obtaining an item and returning it to the guild (that's the point). And the Imperial Cult often involved carrying healing supplies to its agents in the field. But outside of that? I can't remember very many strict "Go here at get this item" quests, especially ones that took a long time. The main quest sometimes involved obtaining lost treasures, but more often it was about gathering information. And I'm okay with that.

Morrowind had such a vast and interesting world to explore that it didn't really matter (to me) what the quests were about, I just wanted to see more of the world. But I do think the game did a decent job of offering a variety of tasks. And as for the combat, well since I never considered the game to be focused on combat in the first place I never really complained.

The one thing I hope they improve for the next game is making the NPCs more dynamic. From what I've read they've made considerable efforts to address this. Oh, and I hope they optimize the engine better. Morrowind runs only tolerable at best even on current high-end machines, and the game was released almost 4 years ago.

[Mochan]

Yeah, the Rapax lands had the biggest battles! All those Rapax just love fighting it seems. I had a bigger fight in the Rapax city or whatever you call it rather than the camp.

You complain that you don't like the FedEx style gameplay, but inherently, that's what roleplaying games are all about.

Nah, that's what I said! And you just don't realize that what I dislike is the excessive amount of FedEx gamplay that a lot of titles these days are coming up with. I've never used the Combat or Epic Questing terms but those probably define the kind of gameplay Wiz 8 gives. So yes, we probably are just getting our definitions mixed up, but there is little point in clubbing each other with semantics.

but earlier this week you complained that Temple of Elemental Evil was too slow; yet that game is the epiphany of tactical gaming.

Huh? When did I say ToEE was the epiphany of tactical gaming? I don't ever remember saying that. I recall saying ToEE was a boring game (or something to that effect) while talking about Vampire but I don't ever recall saying it the best tactical game ever.

Real-time 3D games require a few more bending of the rules in order to make certain processes work.

I'm aware of that. Which doesn't change the fact that the turn-based rules stay faithful to the actual rules. Notice that I never said bending the rules was a bad thing. But there are things that I don't like about the implementation, for instance in the Baldur's Gate games shooting arrows only goes as far as the edge of the screen. I was hoping for ranged fighting that made more sense rather than just being able to get one arrow off before the opponent manages to close the distance between you. I suppose this is hard to get around because the view distance to where your enemies is is simply too small.

The rate of fire for arrows (and for melee attacks for that matter) is a wee bit slow; for something that is allegedly bending the rules to make things work, I was hoping for better timing rates for the attacks.

Being a pretty hardcore D&D player, I can say the NWN engine isn't as bad as you seem to make it out to be.

Huh? I'm not necessarily making the engine out to be bad. I do have a few complaints about the implementation but, as you said, it's not as bad as you seem to think I am making it out to be. I'm just nitpicking on that. BUT it is true that I am making the game itself to be bad. I'm referring to the built in campaigns which I found to be less than addicting to play.

And no, the reason I stopped playing wasn't because of the lack of whips, but rather because of the FedEx gameplay, which was also the reason in the last paragraph why I am making the game out to be bad.

Now I don't know how good the multiplayer experience is when joining servers and the quality of the modules you get there, I don't know about that since I haven't tried. I do know that the original campaign modules that came with the game are FedEx fests which gave me a headache.

And it was nice to see you too, SBS!

[Aku]

Yeah, the Rapax lands had the biggest battles! All those Rapax just love fighting it seems. I had a bigger fight in the Rapax city or whatever you call it rather than the camp.

Yeah, i had a big fight in the Rapax castle too. That one went a little easier, as I got situated at the back of a long room and kept nailing the Rapax with area spells as they filed in.

[Eric-the-Red]

Hey Mochan, good to see you!! I can't agree with you more; Morrowind and NWN are extremely boring and Fallout and Arcanum rule. I hope we see more games along those lines soon.
I actually loved both Baldur's Gate games, despite many of the quests being Fed Ex. I guess the key to those games was that you didn't have to do most of them, and I loved the combat in both (though archers were wayy over powered).

[Renzatic Gear]

Well, I think it's definitely a matter of opinion and preference. Once in a while FedEx quests are called for and necessary, while too many of them kill a game. However, I hate those "epic" quests, where certain areas must be completed, or feats earned, gained, or accomplished before the game is allowed to progress... I feel in this case that I'm on rails. However, it's also a necessary evil, so as long as the game doesn't consist entirely of that, I'm not too bad. I find for one, that quests sometimes take too much time in one locale for instance, and I begin to get a little restless...

I think many good RPG games add a little interaction along the way, in order to break up the humdrum of most quests- FedEx or otherwise... anything else, like you astutely noted, and it becomes stale. The sidetracks allow for confusion, realism, and micromanaging of quest details and Journals... the equivilent of needing to map your own progress in dungeons in the days of yore.
I still wish games made you map out dungeons like they did in the old days. I missed out on having to use grid paper and stuff like that to play games and it appeals to the nerd that dwells within me, automaps seem to take away half the fun.

What makes quests fun to me isn't their type, but how much style and effort has been put into em. It doesn't bother me if one quest requires that I have a certain skill level to pick a lock or knock out a guard as long as I have other options to complete it. A good RPG won't keep you from doing something, but will reward you for figuring out a way to do something meant for higher levels at lower ones. It's that flexibility and openendedness that makes an RPG world feel more alive and interesting.

[Suicides-by-Steve]

"Huh? When did I say ToEE was the epiphany of tactical gaming? I don't ever remember saying that. I recall saying ToEE was a boring game (or something to that effect) while talking about Vampire but I don't ever recall saying it the best tactical game ever."

Sorry- that was my description of ToEE, not yours. While it wasn't the best game, the tactical D&D combat wasn't shabby at all.

And while I am glad you're safe and sound Mochan, there's no love lost between your self-proclaimed piracy ways, and my hobby. It's just SOOO easy to dis a game that you haven't had to work for...

Not to mention, features that you thought don't exist, obviously do; yet without a manual, you'd never know necessarily.

And while SoU and HotU have a few FedEx-style missions, it's nowhere near as prolific as the OC, and the storyline is way more "epic" in scope. Unless you call fighting a dominating demon a FedEx quest, then HotU lacks them in spades. You can command armies, switch-side (Good/Evil) mid-game, and generally lay a smack down on one of the hardest-fought antagonists in a RPG game ever. But you said it wasn't too bad, so at least that's a start.

[Suicides-by-Steve]

"A good RPG won't keep you from doing something, but will reward you for figuring out a way to do something meant for higher levels at lower ones. It's that flexibility and openendedness that makes an RPG world feel more alive and interesting."

This, I think is the point of this thread... there is a definite lack of such games out there on the market. Almost every game I have played will bottleneck you one way or the other. However, I think that FedEx missions are in a way a necessary evil. Again, it's the style in which they are implemented that matters most.

[Aku]

Simple fix to the Fed Ex quests: A lazy slob asks you to go across town and fetch his goat. You tell him, "I'll pay you 100 Kronags to fetch your own goat". He fetches the goat, you're out the 100 Kronags, but you get the experience and can use the free time to go to the Topless Elf club.

Alternate scenario: You inherit a goat. It's across town. You stand in a spot, and other NPC adventurers approach you looking for a quest. You tell them that you're a lazy slob, and will give them 100 Kronags to fetch your goat.

I should develop my own rpg. I really should. ;)

[Renzatic Gear]

Or scenario 3: You kill the goat and use it for adventure eating. Nothing tastes better in a dank dungeon like a goat on goat sandwich.

Steve: Some bottlenecks are necessary to keep the game interesting. You gotta have areas that seem super dangerous and are difficult to explore without the proper experience and equipment handy...it gives you something to work towards and piques your interest for the later parts of the game. The real trick is making it convincing instead of having some booming voice tell you that you can't travel there til you're level 63.

I think Gothic did this better than most.

[Suicides-by-Steve]

Yeah, but that to me is an artificial bottleneck... Even a potion of invisibilty won't allow you to avoid running into a dead end... but it shouldn't be that way. There will still be that locked door, or boss that is required to be beaten before the gameplay can continue. I prefer spawned creatures according to player level, or open ended games such as Morrowind. Lack of access to supply lines can be just as dibilitating as a dark forest filled with hordes of super hard creatures to fight.

NWN falls prey to the above scenario though, so I'm not saying that it doesn't- you are bottlenecked by scripted events and what-not... Morrowind and Divine Divinty are not... assuming you have a way to travel around unnoticed of course, because inherently in any RPG there will always be those areas that are just too dangerous to go to in the middle of the night, but still it's nice to have the option to do so.

[moya]

While I see the reasoning behind monsters spawned to match player level, in practice I think it pretty much sucks. Wizardry 8, good game though it was, was guilty of this. What you ended up with was a situation where you'd be getting into fights at level 12 with the same killer weeds you were up against at level 5, only this time there'd be a few new spells you could use and the numbers that popped up to show damaged caused would be higher than before. It killed any sense of progress, since fights were just as tough (and against the same opponents) even after you'd advanced 7 levels.

[Suicides-by-Steve]

While I see the reasoning behind monsters spawned to match player level, in practice I think it pretty much sucks. Wizardry 8, good game though it was, was guilty of this. What you ended up with was a situation where you'd be getting into fights at level 12 with the same killer weeds you were up against at level 5, only this time there'd be a few new spells you could use and the numbers that popped up to show damaged caused would be higher than before. It killed any sense of progress, since fights were just as tough (and against the same opponents) even after you'd advanced 7 levels.

You do bring up a good point Moya... However, NWN implements it alot better than Wiz 8 ever did... Wiz 8 got a little dry after a while with the same creatures, different abilities scenario. NWN changes the creatures around considerably, but with a major difference... The amount of creatures spawned changes, and not simply making them tougher. So a party of 3 or 4 second level adventurers will spawn 20 goblins, rather than a solo second level character spawning only 5. Revisit the same place with the same solo character, but at level 10, and he could just as easily spawn 20 gobbos.

As well, you can spawn same enemies, but with different names and that are tougher... just like Wiz 8. The difference is that you have an option to do one or the other, or both if you wish. Spawn points in NWN are deliberately hand-placed, and given parametres based solely upon levels combined, so the action only intensifies, but never gets repetitive... since the next spawn point you hit will spawn a totally different creature (again dev-picked) if that's what's in order.

I think the fault you bring up about Wiz 8 is generally limited to Wiz 8, and the lack of inspiration on behalf of the developers.

[Hieremias]

Personally I like the mixed system of Morrowind. In the general world monsters sometimes spawned at a level relative to the player (you wouldn't find elemental atronachs wandering around when you're at level 2), but many dungeons and Daedric ruins were ridiculously dangerous. That's the way it should be, I'd like a huge world to explore at the beginning but I want enough areas to be tantilizingly dangerous so to give some incentive to improve.

Gothic 2 had no such system, each monster was placed exactly where it was intended from the start, which gave a highly unrealistic feeling to it. The road into the city was only populated by wolves and flies, but the forest beside the road had orcs and shadowbeasts? Geez.

By the way, people, relax about the cliff racers. There's only about 400 mods that'll completely remove them from the game, but my favourite is the mod that changes animal behaviour to something more realistic--normal animals (cliff racers, guars, scribs, etc) won't attack you openly unless you get too close or attack them first. Blighted animals will still go all nuts though.

[Suicides-by-Steve]

Yeah, that's another inclusion in the NWN toolset creature wizards- You can not only set randomly spawning creatures, but set player interactive NPC's as well... all in the same MoB. So, even though you're meeting the evil boss, his spawned cronies could very well be different.