Forza=meh?

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

The demo of this game will be in the new OXM. As some of you guys know I'm not a sim fan but since so many of you are I was looking at this game to get just to play with you guys (since yall be hating on BO3). Anyway no real complaints about the gameplay I really can't tell the difference but the graphics my god! This is Xbox and I swear to god GT3 looks better than this. Now there is damage and the track get's marked up but the overall Graphics and presentation of GT3 ( a 3 year old game on inferior hardware) looks better.

There are a lot of cars in the Demo over 10 I really can't get into the specifics of the handling I mean it's harder to control than BO3 the cars do controll noticeablely different but I don't know how accurate it is. I haven't been spinning out like crazy like I do in the GT games though. Have any of you played and how do you think it compares to GT.

Oh yeah the Driver A.I. is noticeablly more tame than PGR 2 (I've only played a Demo of that) and Burnout 3.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Is the OXM issue availabe now at the newstand? Cause I don't have a subscription.

Can you tell me what kind of camera angles and options are available? For example, is there a view where you can drive from inside the car? Either full cockpit or just hood view.

Also, is there a clutch in the game, you may have to dig through the control options to pick this up. I'm sure you can rip your own audio tracks, well, maybe not with the demo though. Also, how many cars do you race against typically in the single player? Toca2 did well over 20, but 12 online. This game does 8 online, but i'm wondering how many in single player. Ah well, its gonna be a long wait till Feb 1.

Far as graphics, i'm sure network performance and physics where all taken into account when they decided graphical detail. Also, there is always the chance the graphics will be polished up with the final build. I've read the graphics are a knotch above TOCA2, if that is the case that is good for me. At that level, the most important thing becomes the physics and network performance. I expect this thing to run buttery smooth online with a full room, voice chat, customization, etc., so i'd rather have that than the prettiest cars on the block. Also, TOCA2 was smooth and had 12 cars, so MS better have this thing extrememly smooth with only 8 online opponents.

[Rykon]

I got the demo disk yesterday, and I played Forza. It's horrible. It's got the same demo track as Toca Race Driver 2 did, and Toca was way better. These cars handle so unrealistically. And no, its not on newsstands. It wont be til late December. It's the January issue. Conker's pretty good, but hard as hell, Rocky Legends sucks, Outlaw Golf 2 is good (the views arent bad if you get my drift), and ESPN NHL is .. ok I guess. Not really into hockey, though.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Is the OXM issue availabe now at the newstand? Cause I don't have a subscription.

Can you tell me what kind of camera angles and options are available? For example, is there a view where you can drive from inside the car? Either full cockpit or just hood view.

Also, is there a clutch in the game, you may have to dig through the control options to pick this up. I'm sure you can rip your own audio tracks, well, maybe not with the demo though. Also, how many cars do you race against typically in the single player? Toca2 did well over 20, but 12 online. This game does 8 online, but i'm wondering how many in single player. Ah well, its gonna be a long wait till Feb 1.

Far as graphics, i'm sure network performance and physics where all taken into account when they decided graphical detail. Also, there is always the chance the graphics will be polished up with the final build. I've read the graphics are a knotch above TOCA2, if that is the case that is good for me. At that level, the most important thing becomes the physics and network performance. I expect this thing to run buttery smooth online with a full room, voice chat, customization, etc., so i'd rather have that than the prettiest cars on the block. Also, TOCA2 was smooth and had 12 cars, so MS better have this thing extrememly smooth with only 8 online opponents.

well from the demo you get a first person angle and like two 3rd person angles in the demo no cockpit view was like 8 cars total. Clutch I don't know there is an option for manual transmission.

[Glockstar]

I gotta get my hands on this

It's a great demo Phaze. In addition to Forza theres:
* Conker Live and Reloaded (This is the "assault on the Tediz" level - which also means that it's the Saving Private Ryan/Normandy Beach "spoof"... that is just as disturbing as the scene from the movie - and just as disturbing as I remembered it on the N64. Only now even more graphic and detailed.)
* Star Wars Battlefront (You weren't kidding when you said this was a good game (all those months ago now), were you? I'm beginning to realize that I goofed when I passed up B3 and Battlefront. D'oh!)
* Outlaw Golf 2 (Just one course. But it's neat. Too bad that without instructions or a tutorial I couldn't grasp the controls. Meh, I doubt if I was going to get it regardless.)
* Rocky Legends (Uh... next!)
* ESPN NHL 2K5 (I passed on this one too. Because I'm pretty sure I'm getting the game.)

The SW Battlefront is great demo in it's own right; and seeing 1st hand what Rare has done with the Conker remake is joyous to me; but the Forza demo left me with more questions than answers.

So, I don't know if I'd call this - or any demo for that matter - worth $10.
What you need to do, Phaze - what you should've done a while ago - is subscribe already!

-

About the trial version of Forza Motorsports:
* There are 12 cars: Nissan 350z, Subaru Impreza WRX, Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, Acura NSX, Chevrolet Corvette, Ferarri 360, Porsche 911, Dodge Viper, and 4 cars from the Le Mans Prototype class of cars (1 each Audi, Toyota, BMW, and Ferarri).

The first four cars can be modified. The rest cannot. At least on the demo. Even then, the customizations (front, hood, rear, spoiler, and paint) are all pre-selected - so if you choose to modify one of these all you get to do is watch the parts and paint get put on. (Again, I only speak of the trial version!) These "upgrades" are supposed to affect the cars' performance, but I didn't go back and forth between them enough to be able to tell what the differences were.

Each of these 12 cars handles and sounds distinctively. So that's good. But unless there are only these twelve cars in the final game, it doesn't really tell us anything, does it? (I still have no idea how many cars there are going to be in this game. MGS only says, "more than 60 top car manufacturers".)

* There's only one track on the trial version. It's Leguna Seca.

* There are 4 camera-views on the demo. Two 3rd-person, and two 1st-person. But, there is not a whole of difference between the two 1st-person ones. The 1st-person view and HUD is nearly identical to the one in GT3!

* Each of the 12 cars are defaulted to...
1) Stability control
2) Anti-lock brakes
3) traction control
... "on". But you can switch any of those "off".

Automatic transmission is also standard. But you can switch that to manual. The only thing you cannot change is the controller/button layout. And on the demo, X downshifts, while B upshifts. *Yech* A is the handbreak. The right thumbstick gives you your looks behind and to-the-sides; Black button changes viewpoints. (White is supposed to change the HUD, but it wasn't doing anything.)

* I don't know what DT is talking about... FM looks sah-weet! The car models were spot on; the track and the backgrounds (including the spectators) looked great; and oh, the details! I liked the glowing-red brake rotors - very nice touch. I'd say FM looks better than PGR2 or RSC2 - so that right there should tell you that it looks better than GT3. Come on DT!

* And don't listen to Rykon. It's a sim! (Which you'd think he'd know - having played TOCA 2.) Which means that it's got all the frustrations of a sim with regards to handling, acceleration, and the like, too. Nothing was amiss that I could tell. Well, except for my driving. :p (Although... curiously... of all the cars that you'd think that'd handle really really well, it was the LMPs that were a bit twitchy and boxy. ??? I guess this was the developers way of "compensating" for their high performance, and their way of making them ultra-responsive? I don't know.)

I'm not sweating anything. It's a demo. A demo which... doesn't really tell me a whole lot. There's nothing here that I wasn't expecting to see. I'm not worried about them getting the cars, and the tracks, and the mods, and the graphics, right. It's more of a question of will there be enough cars; enough tracks; etc. And not only that, Forza will come under fire if they don't have the "back end" loaded.

I think it's going to be all that... but that's what I thought before the demo too. Nothing's changed.

Anyways, the issue (#39) hits stands November 30.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

It's a great demo Phaze. In addition to Forza theres:
* Conker Live and Reloaded (This is the "assault on the Tediz" level - which also means that it's the Saving Private Ryan/Normandy Beach "spoof"... that is just as disturbing as the scene from the movie - and just as disturbing as I remembered it on the N64. Only now even more graphic and detailed.)
* Star Wars Battlefront (You weren't kidding when you said this was a good game (all those months ago now), were you? I'm beginning to realize that I goofed when I passed up B3 and Battlefront. D'oh!)
* Outlaw Golf 2 (Just one course. But it's neat. Too bad that without instructions or a tutorial I couldn't grasp the controls. Meh, I doubt if I was going to get it regardless.)
* Rocky Legends (Uh... next!)
* ESPN NHL 2K5 (I passed on this one too. Because I'm pretty sure I'm getting the game.)

The SW Battlefront is great demo in it's own right; and seeing 1st hand what Rare has done with the Conker remake is joyous to me; but the Forza demo left me with more questions than answers.

So, I don't know if I'd call this - or any demo for that matter - worth $10.
What you need to do, Phaze - what you should've done a while ago - is subscribe already!

-

About the trial version of Forza Motorsports:
* There are 12 cars: Nissan 350z, Subaru Impreza WRX, Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, Acura NSX, Chevrolet Corvette, Ferarri 360, Porsche 911, Dodge Viper, and 4 cars from the Le Mans Prototype class of cars (1 each Audi, Toyota, BMW, and Ferarri).

The first four cars can be modified. The rest cannot. At least on the demo. Even then, the customizations (front, hood, rear, spoiler, and paint) are all pre-selected - so if you choose to modify one of these all you get to do is watch the parts and paint get put on. (Again, I only speak of the trial version!) These "upgrades" are supposed to affect the cars' performance, but I didn't go back and forth between them enough to be able to tell what the differences were.

Each of these 12 cars handles and sounds distinctively. So that's good. But unless there are only these twelve cars in the final game, it doesn't really tell us anything, does it? (I still have no idea how many cars there are going to be in this game. MGS only says, "more than 60 top car manufacturers".)

* There's only one track on the trial version. It's Leguna Seca.

* There are 4 camera-views on the demo. Two 3rd-person, and two 1st-person. But, there is not a whole of difference between the two 1st-person ones. The 1st-person view and HUD is nearly identical to the one in GT3!

* Each of the 12 cars are defaulted to...
1) Stability control
2) Anti-lock brakes
3) traction control
... "on". But you can switch any of those "off".

Automatic transmission is also standard. But you can switch that to manual. The only thing you cannot change is the controller/button layout. And on the demo, X downshifts, while B upshifts. *Yech* A is the handbreak. The right thumbstick gives you your looks behind and to-the-sides; Black button changes viewpoints. (White is supposed to change the HUD, but it wasn't doing anything.)

* I don't know what DT is talking about... FM looks sah-weet! The car models were spot on; the track and the backgrounds (including the spectators) looked great; and oh, the details! I liked the glowing-red brake rotors - very nice touch. I'd say FM looks better than PGR2 or RSC2 - so that right there should tell you that it looks better than GT3. Come on DT!

* And don't listen to Rykon. It's a sim! (Which you'd think he'd know - having played TOCA 2.) Which means that it's got all the frustrations of a sim with regards to handling, acceleration, and the like, too. Nothing was amiss that I could tell. Well, except for my driving. :p (Although... curiously... of all the cars that you'd think that'd handle really really well, it was the LMPs that were a bit twitchy and boxy. ??? I guess this was the developers way of "compensating" for their high performance, and their way of making them ultra-responsive? I don't know.)

I'm not sweating anything. It's a demo. A demo which... doesn't really tell me a whole lot. There's nothing here that I wasn't expecting to see. I'm not worried about them getting the cars, and the tracks, and the mods, and the graphics, right. It's more of a question of will there be enough cars; enough tracks; etc. And not only that, Forza will come under fire if they don't have the "back end" loaded.

I think it's going to be all that... but that's what I thought before the demo too. Nothing's changed.

Anyways, the issue (#39) hits stands November 30.

I haven't played it that much since I got it. But I honestly don't think it looks that good. I can't put my finger on it. It's not as cartoony as Toca but I don't know maybe I'm tripping. But seriously GT3 looks better and that dissappointed me. I'm going to try and really get into it I want to be online with the VGR'ers with this one. But right now my new PC and HL2 are taking up most of my time.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

It's a great demo Phaze. In addition to Forza theres:
* Conker Live and Reloaded (This is the "assault on the Tediz" level - which also means that it's the Saving Private Ryan/Normandy Beach "spoof"... that is just as disturbing as the scene from the movie - and just as disturbing as I remembered it on the N64. Only now even more graphic and detailed.)
* Star Wars Battlefront (You weren't kidding when you said this was a good game (all those months ago now), were you? I'm beginning to realize that I goofed when I passed up B3 and Battlefront. D'oh!)
* Outlaw Golf 2 (Just one course. But it's neat. Too bad that without instructions or a tutorial I couldn't grasp the controls. Meh, I doubt if I was going to get it regardless.)
* Rocky Legends (Uh... next!)
* ESPN NHL 2K5 (I passed on this one too. Because I'm pretty sure I'm getting the game.)

The SW Battlefront is great demo in it's own right; and seeing 1st hand what Rare has done with the Conker remake is joyous to me; but the Forza demo left me with more questions than answers.

So, I don't know if I'd call this - or any demo for that matter - worth $10.
What you need to do, Phaze - what you should've done a while ago - is subscribe already!

-

About the trial version of Forza Motorsports:
* There are 12 cars: Nissan 350z, Subaru Impreza WRX, Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, Acura NSX, Chevrolet Corvette, Ferarri 360, Porsche 911, Dodge Viper, and 4 cars from the Le Mans Prototype class of cars (1 each Audi, Toyota, BMW, and Ferarri).

The first four cars can be modified. The rest cannot. At least on the demo. Even then, the customizations (front, hood, rear, spoiler, and paint) are all pre-selected - so if you choose to modify one of these all you get to do is watch the parts and paint get put on. (Again, I only speak of the trial version!) These "upgrades" are supposed to affect the cars' performance, but I didn't go back and forth between them enough to be able to tell what the differences were.

Each of these 12 cars handles and sounds distinctively. So that's good. But unless there are only these twelve cars in the final game, it doesn't really tell us anything, does it? (I still have no idea how many cars there are going to be in this game. MGS only says, "more than 60 top car manufacturers".)

* There's only one track on the trial version. It's Leguna Seca.

* There are 4 camera-views on the demo. Two 3rd-person, and two 1st-person. But, there is not a whole of difference between the two 1st-person ones. The 1st-person view and HUD is nearly identical to the one in GT3!

* Each of the 12 cars are defaulted to...
1) Stability control
2) Anti-lock brakes
3) traction control
... "on". But you can switch any of those "off".

Automatic transmission is also standard. But you can switch that to manual. The only thing you cannot change is the controller/button layout. And on the demo, X downshifts, while B upshifts. *Yech* A is the handbreak. The right thumbstick gives you your looks behind and to-the-sides; Black button changes viewpoints. (White is supposed to change the HUD, but it wasn't doing anything.)

* I don't know what DT is talking about... FM looks sah-weet! The car models were spot on; the track and the backgrounds (including the spectators) looked great; and oh, the details! I liked the glowing-red brake rotors - very nice touch. I'd say FM looks better than PGR2 or RSC2 - so that right there should tell you that it looks better than GT3. Come on DT!

* And don't listen to Rykon. It's a sim! (Which you'd think he'd know - having played TOCA 2.) Which means that it's got all the frustrations of a sim with regards to handling, acceleration, and the like, too. Nothing was amiss that I could tell. Well, except for my driving. :p (Although... curiously... of all the cars that you'd think that'd handle really really well, it was the LMPs that were a bit twitchy and boxy. ??? I guess this was the developers way of "compensating" for their high performance, and their way of making them ultra-responsive? I don't know.)

I'm not sweating anything. It's a demo. A demo which... doesn't really tell me a whole lot. There's nothing here that I wasn't expecting to see. I'm not worried about them getting the cars, and the tracks, and the mods, and the graphics, right. It's more of a question of will there be enough cars; enough tracks; etc. And not only that, Forza will come under fire if they don't have the "back end" loaded.

I think it's going to be all that... but that's what I thought before the demo too. Nothing's changed.

Anyways, the issue (#39) hits stands November 30.

Well thanks for the info, DTM had me worried for a minute. It sounds like there are some good things and bad things with Forza, at least from my perspective. I don't like that there appears to be no HOOD camera or Cockpit Camera. WHY MICROSOFT? There also appears to be no clutch in the game. It seems they targested GranToursimo3, in trying to best the best simulator. But, I guess they didn't realize that TOCA2 is the best simulator on consoles right now. TOCA2 has a clutch, MS has royally pissed me off by not including a clutch. I got so use to this feature in TOCA2, and it just adds to the realism, starting your engine, having your car stall on grass or in a crash etc.

The good, hopefully will out weigh the bad. First, I'm not saying DTM doesn't believe GT3 looks better than Forza. But I would be surprised if it didn't. Anyway, we will see soon enough, well I guess you guys have said what you each think, and I guess I will see what I think when I get the demo. But, there are supposed to be over 200 cars, 60 manufacturers, so that is a good selection. Not all the vehicles can be modified, I guess there is no upgrading a Ferrari or a Lambo. But hopefully the addition of part/performance upgrades, the AI, drivatars, and online features, will make up for the lack of features that were in TOCA2(clutch, hood cam).

I think the other big question revolves around the host options online. Hopefully MS will give us a ton of options, the more control the host has the merrier. But, the one option I really hope they include is the ability to force everyone in the room to use manual tranny. I am getting sick of racing guys with automattys, E-Braking and stuff around corners, with two extra buttons to master all those little tricks will go away. If they don't do that, then at least they should make automattys accelerate slower and brake slower(as the tranny doesn't get involved in slowing the car with an automatty), come on MS, are you a real simulation or are u a fake, a la GT3?

Far as Battlefront, wow, I wonder if guys are still playing that? After GR2 and Halo2, I kinda forgot about it. But, I do plan on coming back to it, hopefully a lot of guys will pick it up over XMAS and after the price comes down, it is tha SHYAT online.

You know, there are several things on my to-do list, that have been there for years. One of them was to get an OXM subscription, I just keep forgetting. After I get the DEC issue, I will send in the leaflet.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Well thanks for the info, DTM had me worried for a minute. It sounds like there are some good things and bad things with Forza, at least from my perspective. I don't like that there appears to be no HOOD camera or Cockpit Camera. WHY MICROSOFT? There also appears to be no clutch in the game. It seems they targested GranToursimo3, in trying to best the best simulator. But, I guess they didn't realize that TOCA2 is the best simulator on consoles right now. TOCA2 has a clutch, MS has royally pissed me off by not including a clutch. I got so use to this feature in TOCA2, and it just adds to the realism, starting your engine, having your car stall on grass or in a crash etc.

The good, hopefully will out weigh the bad. First, I'm not saying DTM doesn't believe GT3 looks better than Forza. But I would be surprised if it didn't. Anyway, we will see soon enough, well I guess you guys have said what you each think, and I guess I will see what I think when I get the demo. But, there are supposed to be over 200 cars, 60 manufacturers, so that is a good selection. Not all the vehicles can be modified, I guess there is no upgrading a Ferrari or a Lambo. But hopefully the addition of part/performance upgrades, the AI, drivatars, and online features, will make up for the lack of features that were in TOCA2(clutch, hood cam).

I think the other big question revolves around the host options online. Hopefully MS will give us a ton of options, the more control the host has the merrier. But, the one option I really hope they include is the ability to force everyone in the room to use manual tranny. I am getting sick of racing guys with automattys, E-Braking and stuff around corners, with two extra buttons to master all those little tricks will go away. If they don't do that, then at least they should make automattys accelerate slower and brake slower(as the tranny doesn't get involved in slowing the car with an automatty), come on MS, are you a real simulation or are u a fake, a la GT3?

Far as Battlefront, wow, I wonder if guys are still playing that? After GR2 and Halo2, I kinda forgot about it. But, I do plan on coming back to it, hopefully a lot of guys will pick it up over XMAS and after the price comes down, it is tha SHYAT online.

You know, there are several things on my to-do list, that have been there for years. One of them was to get an OXM subscription, I just keep forgetting. After I get the DEC issue, I will send in the leaflet.

The new issue is on stands now. Off topic but Conker looks sick!

[Darwin]

Well, I got a copy of OXM December ($11) at the local bookstore. Played about 90 minutes of the Forza demo. For a demo, I was quite impressed. There are some questions I have about the final product, but we'll have to wait for that. I'll just comment on what is in the demo, and assume these features will still be present (and more) in the final version.

- Graphics: nice. Not the best ever seen, but they are comparable to Toca 2. Perhaps Toca 2 is slightly better looking than the Forza demo, but it's not significant. The car models look nice, the track looks nice, and the game runs at a consitent and fast framerate. It is more than adequate for the job.

The demo only has 4 cameras. 2 3rd person views and 2 first person views. The first person views are much like the Project Gotham games: centered in the middle, either on the hood or on the bumper. Interestingly, the heights of the first person camera is dependent upon the car you are using (that NSX car must be lower to the ground than the others).

- Physics: I would certainly call this a sim racer. It is significantly more sim-based than Toca 2. Just for a ball-park idea, on a sim-scale of 1 - 10, 1 being completely arcadish (like a smashing drive) and 10 being completely sim (like a Ferarri F355 challenge), I'd give the Forza demo an 8, and Toca 2 a 7.

The biggest difference between Toca 2 and the Forza demo is that the coefficient of friction between the tires and road is less in Forza than Toca 2. I.e. the cars are not as grippy. If the tires break away from the pavement and slide, you will have a hard time getting control back.

The cars also demonstrate more understeer than in Toca 2. But to me, Toca 2 cars did not have enough understeer to them, and Forza "feels" more realistic.

Each cars has its own unique feel to it, and there are very significant differences in the handling and acceration of each car. All-wheel drive cars do feel different from the rear-wheel cars. I was able to pull off some opposite-lock countersteering with the all-wheel drive Imprezza that was not possible with the rear-wheel drive NSX.

There is a handbrake in the Forza demo, but it acts like a real handbrake should ... you will fishtail with it, even if you don't turn the wheel. People will NOT be able to exploit the handbrake in Forza like they could in Toca 2.

The driving assists do make a significant difference in handling. When they are on, the car corrects a lot of your minor imperfections for you, but it still remains a simulation. I found that turning them off feels better for me and provides a deeper experience.

- Sound: Overall good. The cars have their own distinct (and I assume, accurate) sounds to them. The engine sound is more loud than in Toca 2. Also, the tires squeeling on the road are a lot more prominent than Toca 2. You can use the sound of your squeeling tires to help you drive better because you can better guage when the tires are about to lose contact with the roadway.

Controls: Cars are reponsive, but not overly responsive. The steering and acceleration/braking have a large range of analogue input to them so you can really finess the car. The demo gives only one default control layout, and I am praying the final version allows for full customization. Upshift is with B and downshift is with X, for default.

There is no rear-view mirror, but you can look all around you. The Y button is the simple look-back. But the right analogue stick allows you to pan your view around all 360 degrees, and is analogue. It's a lot like the camera in Mercedes World Racing. Now you can check your blind spots, which you could not in Toca 2. However, there is no little indicator to show when someone is coming up close from behind, like there was in Toca 2. Overall, though, I prefer Forza's system.

-AI: overall good. There are only 4 opponents in the demo. I saw no significant rubber-banding. The AI drivers act kinda human. They will make occasional mistakes. So it is possible to catch up after a minor mistake. They also make minor contact with you and the other cars. But they don't "target" you, as they give equal opportunity to hit each other about as much as they hit you. Most of the contact is minor, but I saw a bit of major contact between two AI guys in front of me. They have preferred lines, but can deveate from them if needed. One thing I did notice is that they are easily blocked. Move over to get directly in front of them and they will brake, but not really try to go around you. However, if they are going at full speed and you are pulling back onto the track, they will plow you. There was a point at which I was able to get the entire field to a complete stop in the middle of the road because I was blocking them. Sometimes, they will throw their cars in reverse and back up a lot in order to get back on the track. It's kinda wierd. Certainly interesting.

- Final verdict: the foundation of the game appears to be solid. We have accurate physics and accurate car handling, with a large variability between cars. We have good graphics and good AI, although room for improvement. So, the potential is there. Let's hope the online coding for the final version is good.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Well, I finally got around to buying the OXM. I have to say, I am unimpressed. I won't be subscribing to that POS, that has gotta be the worse gaming mag i've ever seen. All it was was one article and a bunch of ads, and some crappy reviews, not score wise, but information wise.

Anyway, Forza is a different story. Took me a while to get use to the controls, i'd much rather prefer having a clutch in a simulation like this. It just felt all wrong not having to start my car, or keep the clutch engaged when my car wasn't moving. It just didn't feel right, I mean you go all this way to build a great sim, but after TOCA2, no clutch just doesn't feel realistic from the jump. Oh well, guess i'm in the minority on this point.

As far as the rest of the game, I was very impressed with the simulation and physics. Aside from the clutch, it is the most realistic feeling racer i've seen on the consoles. The understeer correction on the 350Z was just fantastic, this was the first car I test drove. Then I upgraded it, and found I could brake hard in a straight line, where as before the upgrade, in lower gears on a hard brake, the car would lose control. I, of course, had all driving assists turned off. I chose the Porche next, thinking all the cars would "feel" the same, just some would be faster etc. Damn was I thrown for a loop! I found myself fighting the controls with the 350Z, but the Porche was just nimble and efficient. First I thought, okay, they just gave more control to the higher end cars. Wrong! I switched to the Vette and found myself fighting the car like I was with the 350Z.

I dropped back down to the Evolution I think. And found that car to be a pleasure to drive. I could brake harder and accelerate much sooner in the curves. The handling and physics on the cars are all unique, and definitely real. I love how when you are going downhill in a turn, the back-end of the car loses grip as the weight transfers to the front of the car. In TOCA2, this just was not the case. You could hammer on a downhill bend with perfect rear-end grip. In this game, that outside rear wheel will loose grip and you will start to spin.

I also love the collisions in this game. The cars don't behave like a freaking pinball machine when they hit each other. This is what i've hated even in Toca2 and especially in PGR2. If cars are traveling at the same speed and touch or bump, there will not be a richochet effect. This should mitigate a lot of the bad feeling on LIVE in serious races, where before a slight touch would knock you off the track. It seems in this game you can do some "rubbin", but not too much. I've noticed that a rear-end rub, can cause the car that was rear-ended to lose traction on those rear-wheels by lifting up the vehicle slightly, and then that car will spin.

I noticed a lot of the options were turned off. In the real game, the player will have complete control over upgrading their car and tuning it, with parts from over 150 real suppliers. Also, the player will be able to control the amount of damage and whether it affects performance, even tire wear.

The AI was good, a bit more agressive than I thought they would be for this game. But hey, good AI doesn't mean letting you win. I stopped at the start of a race, and the car behind me, gave me a nasty bump, then went around. That happens on LIVE, so I guess you can say its realistic.

I hope they allow the host to force the same settings for everyone in the room. I definitely do not want to race against automatic drivers. Automatic drivers just drive differently, because they can. I put the game in automatic mode, and it was a breeze. You just don't have to worry about if you are in the right gear. It is less buttons to control so you can get your lines perfect. That is going to cause trouble in a mixed room where people with sticks are going to have to compete with guys who are fast because all they have to worry about is a thumstick and the gas.

The graphics are worse than TOCA2 in my opinion. Not much worse. Obviously, this is an early build. But even if the graphics don't significantly improve, it won't be a problem for me. The most important thing is the physics, the driving mechanics, and the online play. They can always improve the graphics of the series next time, but if the game plays like azz, then it might not be a next time. But, I have a feeling the game is going to look at lot better. I will say the track design is much more impressive than Laguna on TOCA. So, hopefully they spent a lot of time getting the porportions of the track right, if Laguna is any clue, they must have.

I can't wait to get around to customizing my car or cars I should say, and making them completely unique. With that aspect, this is going to be a really really special game on XBOX LIVE. I just wish they could have squeezed 12 cars like TOCA on LIVE. I think with only 8, it is gonna be a detriment to any kind of team racing. I really look forward to the next generation, hopefully they will be able to do 20 or 30 cars in these sims by then. The only bad thing about Forza now is it won't be here for another few months.