Woohooooo! Bush Wins!!!........................

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

.............................Canada here I come. :rolleyes:

[AOE Enforcer]

.............................Canada here I come. :rolleyes:


1) How much does a gallon of gasoline cost in Canada?

2) Is it easy to get citizenship in Canada from the United States of Corruptica?

3) Can you direct me to a good neighborhood for my family to move to. Y'see...I don't want to let that !@#%$%## Bush take my 15 year old nephew and 15 year old cousin to Iraq to get their appendages blown off to line his pockets a bit more.

I swear, this country sucks. It worse than sucks: it sucks donkey balls. The whole world hates Bush, he lied about his imaginary weapons of mass destruction and invaded a sovereign nation. If Bush is so interested in taking out "evil regimes" then maybe he ought to do America and the world a favorite and take himself out. :p

[mandark]

I dislike Bush myself. But its amazing that he won the popular vote! I really thought that he will lose by a wide margin especially with the SNAFU in Iraq. Instead it was a close race. Bush either cheated or there really are that many ignorant people in this country.

One thing I'm glad about is the passing of Prop 72 here in CA. Finally, Stem Cell research can begin in this state. Up yours Bush and your religious fanaticism.

[sw33tjimmy]

if this country sucks, why don't you leave? Nobody's twisting your arms to stay here. I would bet that more than 90% of the people that say this country sucks have never been off of the north american continent... and most likely they've never been to central america, either.

[Superior Beatslayer]

1) How much does a gallon of gasoline cost in Canada?

2) Is it easy to get citizenship in Canada from the United States of Corruptica?

3) Can you direct me to a good neighborhood for my family to move to. Y'see...I don't want to let that !@#%$%## Bush take my 15 year old nephew and 15 year old cousin to Iraq to get their appendages blown off to line his pockets a bit more.

I swear, this country sucks. It worse than sucks: it sucks donkey balls. The whole world hates Bush, he lied about his imaginary weapons of mass destruction and invaded a sovereign nation. If Bush is so interested in taking out "evil regimes" then maybe he ought to do America and the world a favorite and take himself out. :p

I dunno about a gallon but per litre it varies from like 65 cents to like 90 cents, I remember seeing it at 43 once.

[joquito]

if this country sucks, why don't you leave? Nobody's twisting your arms to stay here. I would bet that more than 90% of the people that say this country sucks have never been off of the north american continent... and most likely they've never been to central america, either.

Everyone has a right to criticize the place we live. Everyone does this even within their own family, so they can definitely do it for their country. At the same time, ya gotta be understanding that what makes this country great is the diversity of world views.

Bush won because Kerry was out of touch with most of the county. He did not know how to appeal to them. I am from the midwest but now live in New England, and folks here can't see beyond the state line. The media almost exclusively represent the coastal states, so everyone in the fly-over states understand coastal culture. Unfortunately Coastal residents are totally clueless to middle country culture. I guess the country was presented with two products and one product was not advertised well enough.

I don't live in Cali but Prop 72 was bad politics, science, and business all at the same time. And this view is not related to any particular religious view on embryonic stem cell research either. 1. The bill almost exclusively provides funding for embryonic stem cell reseach in exclusion of adult or umbillical cord stem cells or cancer, heart disease, aids, flu, etc. 2. If the research is soooo promising, how come venture capitolist don't jump in on the oportunity of a life time, as is down with other research. 3. The money provided for this is research is greater than all the other funding allocated by the state for medical research combined. (This point doesn't come from the best source but pretty reliable).
But again I don't live there so no skin off of my back.

[Brendon]

From the statistics I've seen, a good majority of the numbers in Bush's favor came from those who voted based on him pertaining 'cristian values'.

Now forgive me if I'm wrong but WHAT THE HELL, I don't care if you're Jesus himself, that has precisely bugger all to do wiht running the most powerful nation on the fasce of the earth. Didn't we learn our lessons for over a thousand years under rule from religious powers. America is probably a great place to live, pity so many of you are so bloody stupid.

[Tappy_Tibbons]

I have a special message for the democracks...

It's truly sad that even though the media had such a bias for Kerry he STILL didn't win, it just goes to show that the people of this nation have...

a. better taste than to watch MTV
b. sense enough to think for themselves and not be influenced by horrible celebrities, no truly talented celebs support ANY party publicly
c. the eyes to see that the moronic "protesters" continue to alienate all sane people from the democratic party
d. sense enough to see through the senseless lies presented by propaganda (yup, Michael Moore is now even more filthy rich than before)
e. sense enough not to vote for a traitor who is a hero in communist nations during times of current war
f. proof in knowing that the majority of people who could have swayed the election towards kerry didn't care enough to vote (but will probably be whining about it later)
g. knowledge that sheep, which DO believe and do as commanded everything a celebrity tells them are actually LESS than people who think for themselves (like the borg)
h. sense enough to realize the impact 9/11 has had on our economy and have ignored all the morons who think it was all Bush's fault
i. sense enough not to vote for Bin Laden's choice
j. further proof that political campaigns based on negativity and deciet will never defeat a positive message

Bush had my vote.

That is all...you may now continue hitting the bong, we will continue running the country smoothly.

[PapaSmurf]

Yea its so smooth that if your under 18 you can't get a job, becuase all of the unemployed people over took all those menial jobs just to have a job, since they got laid off or something to that effect. So smooth we have Americans dieing daily in a country that they don't even represent. So smooth that we have the main focus of moral values deciding an election? Moral values, I mean are you kidding me, and the majority of people who voted based on that were poor. I guess its all good though even if you are doing bad economically as long as those damn gays aren't allowed to marry.

I'm sorry but when thats the main topic, over economics, and lets not forget about this WAR we're fighting I don't think any country is running smoothly.

[Tappy_Tibbons]

Go to McDonalds

[PapaSmurf]

No offence to Mexicans...but tried McD's and here in SoCal, they only hire the Mexicans. So any other bright ideas?

[Renzatic Gear]

Bush would've had my vote if he delivered on his original promises and wasn't such a corporate shill.

Did you vote for Bush because you appreciated his stance on making the country a safer place? Homeland security has been in financial limbo since about late 2002 and has very little government backing.

Like his stance on terrorism? Then why the hell is he in Iraq? Even Cheney admitted to lying about Hussein's involvement with Al Qaeda (before backtracking and saying he never said such despite the fact that it was caught on tape and shown many times).

Why hasn't he caught Bin Ladin yet? He promises to do so one year, then turns around and says he could care less the next. What gives? Why are we deploying troops in a war that doesn't have much to do with anything when we could be sending Spec Ops out into the field hunting down far deeper threats?

All the massive problems with Corporate America destroying the workforce by outsourcing and constant tax evasions that are lumped on middle America instead? Not a finger raised.

The moral obligations being bandied about by the media are totally secondary. I don't vote a president into office because he'll legalize stem cell research or allow gay marriages, I vote a president into office because I believe he's the best person to stabilize the economy, provide jobs to the country at large, and make sure we're secure from any potential threats. Voting a president into office because he's for or against the current hot topic of the week just goes to show how shortsighted some people can be.

Bush isn't the right man for the job, he's run the country into the ground and is obviously in it to make his buddies a quick buck. But then again Kerry isn't exactly a shining example of leadership either. He's as much of an idiot as Bush, and I like him even less because his ideas are far too out of touch with the average person.

Just like 2000, we didn't have a good choice and we would've been screwed either way we went. The country voted for the devil we know instead of the new guy that would've dropped the ball a little to the left instead of the right. We really need another JFK or Roosevelt running the country, QUIT GIVING US IDIOTS TO VOTE FOR, D.C!

[T.Tashi]

Bush won because Ohio, New Mexico, Colorado and probably other states were all the new Florida. Even Florida was the new Florida. Voter names systematically removed from the rolls, absentee and provisional ballots overlooked and threw out, and in overwhelmingly minority areas, like Rio Arriba County, New Mexico Hispanic voters have a 500 percent greater chance of their vote being "spoiled." Kerry was a million votes in the hole even before Nov. 2. And Democrats and 99 percent of the mainstream media are afraid to voice an ounce of opposition else you be character assassinated like Gary Webb, or really assassinated like Kennedy or Paul Wellstone. Yeah I said it. He was one of very very few politicians that was actually worth a damn.

[Deathstroke]

I wanted Bush to win. Now, I'm all for him going and invading the rest of the Arab world. They need to be straightened out with a beating the likes of which they haven't seen since the days of Genghis Khan.

[Spastic Colon Powell]

Is what's wrong with this country. Democrats don't get their way so they immediately start whining and crying about it. And some people literally have said that they are leaving the country. Well good luck, so long, and good riddance. If you don't like it here, leave. That's the great thing about America, you have all kinds of rights, including the right to get the hell out if you can find anywhere that will accept your whining @$$.

What makes me sick is that some co-workers of my wife ( which if I had been there I would have beaten this guy to death ), were discussing their distaste with the results of the election. And one of them actually had the balls to say as they were looking at the Blue and Red map representing which states went to Bush and which states went to Kerry, "Well someone should give that map to Bin Laden so he knows which states to hit next, he can start with Texas".

Now I'm sure he wasn't serious, but to be so angry to even say something that ridiculous. I'm still debating on just finding this guy and beating him down because that kind of attitude is almost worse than terrorism. Excreting negativity like a bodily fluid is only going to bring more negativity, but everyone seems to be too preoccupied with whining to realize you're going to make your own problems worse!

We'll never know what Kerry would have done for the country at this point, so there's no point in speculation, or random BS that he was our "White Knight" and would save America with his magic "I have a plan" box....that he would never talk about, or even hint at, or even had a clue of what his plan actually was. I bet you'll probably vote for Hagatha Clinton in '08 too. Talk about dooming the country....

No matter how much you ***** and complain, you're not going to get Kerry elected. He lost. The majority has elected Bush any way you slice it both the electoral and popular votes. The question is, where do we as a people go from here. I for one, would like to go forward. But anyone that wants to whine and cry in a pile of their own dung they lack the control to hold in, you have that right as well. This is America after all......

[Spastic Colon Powell]

Did any of the people complaining even bother to vote? The turnout for the 18-25'ers was actually a lot lower than expected. I guess that generation expects that to be done for them as well....

[Spastic Colon Powell]

Bush won because Ohio, New Mexico, Colorado and probably other states were all the new Florida. Even Florida was the new Florida. Voter names systematically removed from the rolls, absentee and provisional ballots overlooked and threw out, and in overwhelmingly minority areas, like Rio Arriba County, New Mexico Hispanic voters have a 500 percent greater chance of their vote being "spoiled." Kerry was a million votes in the hole even before Nov. 2. And Democrats and 99 percent of the mainstream media are afraid to voice an ounce of opposition else you be character assassinated like Gary Webb, or really assassinated like Kennedy or Paul Wellstone. Yeah I said it. He was one of very very few politicians that was actually worth a damn.


Kennedy I can understand...he was assassinated...but Paul Wellstone?! I know first-hand what that guy was about...I won't talk about it as I do have some respect for the dead. But he was no model politician ( unless by "model" you mean typical). He represented my state after all. And there was no assassination about it. It was an accident, the only reason that it was ever blown out of proportion was that he was famous and it was close to election time. The fact is, while plane crashes are a rarity, when you're at a time of heavy travel and you're constantly on smaller engine craft, your chances of a crash go up. Now while it's still a small chance, it does happen.

[Spastic Colon Powell]

That this entire thread be moved, or removed completely. It has nothing to do with games or system wars.

[moya]

What makes me sick is that some co-workers of my wife ( which if I had been there I would have beaten this guy to death ), were discussing their distaste with the results of the election.

I'm still debating on just finding this guy and beating him down because that kind of attitude is almost worse than terrorism.

Nice. Very restrained attitude there Bush-boy. I suppose we could just chalk that one up to another death in this desperately misguided 'war on terror'...

I vote...That this entire thread be moved, or removed completely. It has nothing to do with games or system wars.

LOL; this coming from someone who's posted four times in the thread already!

[Spastic Colon Powell]

Nice. Very restrained attitude there Bush-boy. I suppose we could just chalk that one up to another death in this desperately misguided 'war on terror'...


I see how you conveniently left out the horrible things that this guy said. Typical, only read what you want to read.

Oh, and your petty label really hurts let me tell you. I guess vague references to the war on terror and namecalling are your style...meh...so be it. When you have something to add to the discussion, by all means post again...

[moya]

I wanted Bush to win. Now, I'm all for him going and invading the rest of the Arab world. They need to be straightened out with a beating the likes of which they haven't seen since the days of Genghis Khan.

Yeah, screw them! Screw all of those filthy sand-n****rs. What have they ever done for the world anyway. They need to be taught some respect! And who better than our God-fearing, hometown, country-boy President George Bush!! Time for another Crusade, boys--break out a few cold ones and saddle up; we're going in... YEEHAW!

[moya]

I see how you conveniently left out the horrible things that this guy said. Typical, only read what you want to read.


So saying horrible things is justification enough for murder, then?

[Spastic Colon Powell]

Yeah, screw them! Screw all of those filthy sand-n****rs. What have they ever done for the world anyway. They need to be taught some respect! And who better than our God-fearing, hometown, country-boy President George Bush!! Time for another Crusade, boys--break out a few cold ones and saddle up; we're going in... YEEHAW!



I'll bet that's how anyone feels that supports Bush right? If I could roll my eyes anymore, they'd be in someone elses head by now....

[Spastic Colon Powell]

So saying horrible things is justification enough for murder, then?


Exaggeration to make a point? I thought not....

[moya]

Yep, that's precisely what I was doing.

[PapaSmurf]

Please if Bush had lost, Bush supporters would be doing the exact same ****. You just have to put it all in perspective. I'm not a Bush fan, but spastic is right, the guy did win the electoral vote and the popular vote. I'll admit I've done my fair share of bagging on the guy and what not, but we honestly need to deal with where this country is going to be going in the next 4 years. Bush in the president again, deal with it.

I've had a lot of friends getting all sick about this and talking about the world ending and what not please...Bush might actually surprise it pleasantly I don't know. I never gave the guy a chance, but we're going to have to now, since theres nobody else. I'm done with politics of the president at least until the next elections. Its really not worth my time and effort, because in the end your not going to change anyones mind, so why spend the effort when I could be doing other things like I dunno PLAYING VIDEOGAMES!!!

[shogun]

Tyranny of the Majority?

Christian values trumped all social, economic and international issues. But what if you're not christian and actually cared about that other stuff? It's a fair election no doubt, but you still have to wonder if Bush realizes why he won, where he won, and that because of that he doesn't have Amercia's go-ahead to change the theings the majority still disagrees with him about.

[Spastic Colon Powell]

Please if Bush had lost, Bush supporters would be doing the exact same ****. You just have to put it all in perspective. I'm not a Bush fan, but spastic is right, the guy did win the electoral vote and the popular vote. I'll admit I've done my fair share of bagging on the guy and what not, but we honestly need to deal with where this country is going to be going in the next 4 years. Bush in the president again, deal with it.

I've had a lot of friends getting all sick about this and talking about the world ending and what not please...Bush might actually surprise it pleasantly I don't know. I never gave the guy a chance, but we're going to have to now, since theres nobody else. I'm done with politics of the president at least until the next elections. Its really not worth my time and effort, because in the end your not going to change anyones mind, so why spend the effort when I could be doing other things like I dunno PLAYING VIDEOGAMES!!!

While you may not like the fact that Bush is in office, you seem to be moving on. To be honest, I'm not that happy that Bush is in office either, but I wouldn't have been happy with Kerry in office. The fact is I agree more with Renzatic in that we don't have any decent candidates to choose from, and I voted for who I felt was the lesser of two evils. The whole thing I was sick of is people complaining about it and talking about how the whole country is doomed, and Bush is evil...blah blah blah. If Kerry had been elected, I would wish the best for our country and hope the he really did have some tricks up his sleeve. But I certainly would not have been bitter as I was not an avid supporter of either candidate.

I think, Papa Smurf, you have put this thread into a more realistic perspective (myself included).

[Deathstroke]

Yeah, screw them! Screw all of those filthy sand-n****rs. What have they ever done for the world anyway. They need to be taught some respect! And who better than our God-fearing, hometown, country-boy President George Bush!! Time for another Crusade, boys--break out a few cold ones and saddle up; we're going in... YEEHAW!

LOL, I was born in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia so technically I am a filthy sand-n****r. And on top of that I'm Muslim. OMG, teh horror!!!!!!!!!! :D

Ultimately, you have to look at the regimes in place in the Middle East and see them for the corrupt, inept leaderships that they are. Hell, do that for most of the Islamic world because just about all the Muslim countries out there are towing that 'most corrupt region in the world' line. There are a few exceptions but they are hardly the norm nor does it appear that they are setting any type of trends for the rest. Ultimately, I believe Bush is good for the Muslim World. A lot of it depends on how Iraq does in the future. And like it or not, key to that stability is taking out a few of the surrounding countries to make sure that they don't harbor terrorists who only want chaos in the region. Most of these so called freedom fighters are trickling into Iraq from the other Arab countries and the U.S. does need to lay down some serious ass whuppin'. Maybe that will finally be a wake up call the rest of the Islamic World needs.

When a child is unruly, you've got to discipline it. The U.S. can't afford to be soft because the only thing the Arab world understands is force.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Bush said let's isolate Iran, let's use an economic isolation policy and work with the rest of the world to put pressue on Iran to not enrich uranium...

Bush's plan worked so well, almost too well. Just last week Iran signed a multibillion dollar deal with China for China to develop one of their oil fields, in exchange for a natural gas.

Just this week, India signed a multibillion dollar deal to finance the development of Iran's second largest natural gas reserve.

Earlier this year Japan signed similar deals, Russia and several European countries already have similar deals in place.

So Bush has done a great job convincing the world to follow his lead and isolate Iran, I mean all this isolation last week convinced the Iranian government to ratify a law that mandates that they will enrich uranium. After the vote, Iranian leaders publicly decried death to America, and stated America is their number 1 enemy. What Bush has done is not isolate Iran, but he has isolated America from the rest of the world.

He has made the same mistakes with North Korea. Now both of those countries view our position as very weak and have the upper hands in any negotiations because they know our military is stretched thin, and we have no 'real' coalition partners.

Bush has done a bang up job with our allies. In fact, Bush has given the EU resolve to try and become a super-power again. With 455 million people, Europe's problems have been that the countries were all too divided. Now, they have a common threat, that is motivating them to try and work together to possibly build a European defense with balls. Journalist are dubbing their vision, the United States Of Europe. What is this common threat they perceive, terrorism? Nope, it is the United States of America.

Oh, and let's not forget Bush's masterful work with our economy. Never mind the fact that our deficit is so high right now, that John Kerry if elected and with a reversal of the Bush tax cut, he would only be able to chop the deficit in half in four years, now that he is not elected, imagine how high the deficit is going to be after another four years. This is a burden that my children will have to face.

Continuing on with the economy, now Bush is planning on privatizing social security. Well, this will be just disastrous. I don't know how all of you have faired in your 401k accounts, but i'm getting creamed. This will open up a ton of business however for Banks, Investment Firms, and Wall Street, as all the "saavy" investors, excuse me, read that, all the people with real inside information and knowledge that can never have access to, watches all of our money go directly into their investment accounts. Which, oh by the way, thanks to Bush, get taxed at lower rates than your yearly salary of $30,000 - $90,000 whatever it may be. Just imagine, a millionaire, sitting on his ass, making millions of dollars in capital gains from investments, will be paying less taxes on money he is making in his spair time, than the money you need earn to live on.

Oh, and those poor soldiers in Iraq. Sign up for 2 years, get drafted into service for four years. Glad i'm out, and i'll never go back. When something pops off between us and Iran or North Korea, and we don't have the troops, don't come knocking on my door, but the Bush twins look like they'll make fine soldiers.

Some one said, if you don't like this country move, or that people who are complaining, have never even been outside the country. Well, I've lived in Europe for 2 years, and i've been to Asia and Latin America. While, I can't up and leave, it is not that easy. One day, I do hope to live abroad. This country, for working class people, has seen its best days. When Bush and conservatives say things will get better, it will only get better for owners, owners of land(no, not just your home), and capital, and businesses.

Now, I know, people will think i'm poor. Wrong, my household earns well over $125K. I have a BA in Business from Michigan, and i'm currently earning advanced degrees. I'm not worried about myself, so much as I am worried about just the state of this country and the future of the world.

If you people don't know the facts, I suggest you read, subscribe to Newsweek, WSJ(which is pro-bush, of course), get a book called Bush World by Maureen Dowd to really learn about how close the whole Bush dynasty is with the Saudis and the Bin Laden family. It is not just business ties, the Bush family and Saudi Royal family, are practically family. This was no ordinary Republican versus Democrat election, this one was one that the country got wrong. And we are going to be paying for this one for decades. And down the line, I really don't want to hear Americans complaining. The first Bush election, okay, caught us all by surprise. But this time around, people gave this man a mandate, by a wide margin. You asked for it, now here it comes. All those poor(financially poor) Southern whites, you are just so ignorant, it is just amazing that they all believe Bush cares about them. You will all be canon fodder for Bush.

[moya]

When a child is unruly, you've got to discipline it. The U.S. can't afford to be soft because the only thing the Arab world understands is force.

That's it! Right there folks! It's exactly this kind of condescending, arrogant attitude that most of the rest of the sane world detest about Bush and his neocon cronies.

But, just for the sake of argument, what exactly do you think your serious 'ass whuppin' would accomplish? What has happened in Iraq? What's happening in Israel? Since when has waging a conventional war against unconventional terrorists worked?

[Wan-Fu]

Bush and his atitude is anachronistic. The whole John Wayne schtick will only get more Americans killed, at home and abroad. I just dont understand why most Americans are so completely oblivious to what is going on right in front of their eyes. There is only a certain amount of time until terrorists get hold of a nuclear weapon and the ability to deliver it, and John Wayne tactics only ensure this outcome

Anybody really believe Al-Queda attacked us becuase they "hate freedom??" Because they think they will go to Heaven? Please. They hate the West so god****** much because of colonialism (for those of you that dont know, that is raping, pillaging, invading and occupying a country to suck all of its natural resources dry), because we have sought to control and manipulate middle-eastern governments due to our reliance on Oil, and the big one-- Israel. No one seems to mention Israel in this equation, but above all else, that is where our problem with many middle Eastern countries come from. Being black, I fully sympathize with the suffering of the Jews- pogroms, holocaust, slavery, etc-- but the creation of the State of Israel screwed the Palestinians, and their gripe is legitimate. Until we address that and stop relying on oil to the extent that we do, somebody is going to explode a very nasty bomb in America.

We could kill every terrorist alive in the world right now, but as long as these underlying problems are there, more will come. Its just silly-- its a classic and ultimately tragic case of treating the symptoms and not the disease. In the nuclear age, this is going to get a lot of people killed. We will neverhave SUV's and Peace. We have to choose between materialism and safety, there really is no other way.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

LOL, I was born in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia so technically I am a filthy sand-n****r. And on top of that I'm Muslim. OMG, teh horror!!!!!!!!!! :D

Ultimately, you have to look at the regimes in place in the Middle East and see them for the corrupt, inept leaderships that they are. Hell, do that for most of the Islamic world because just about all the Muslim countries out there are towing that 'most corrupt region in the world' line. There are a few exceptions but they are hardly the norm nor does it appear that they are setting any type of trends for the rest. Ultimately, I believe Bush is good for the Muslim World. A lot of it depends on how Iraq does in the future. And like it or not, key to that stability is taking out a few of the surrounding countries to make sure that they don't harbor terrorists who only want chaos in the region. Most of these so called freedom fighters are trickling into Iraq from the other Arab countries and the U.S. does need to lay down some serious ass whuppin'. Maybe that will finally be a wake up call the rest of the Islamic World needs.

When a child is unruly, you've got to discipline it. The U.S. can't afford to be soft because the only thing the Arab world understands is force.


I truly applaud, everything you are saying about the Muslim world. But, your faith in Bush is misplaced. Oh, only if you knew the facts. The problem is, you have bought into the Bush propoganda. If the Bush propoganda was actually what Bush was really trying to do, you'd be correct. You really need to do some advanced reading on the Bush dynasty. You have no idea how close Bush is with the Saudi's, it goes far deeper than the relationships that were brought to light by Michael Moore's movie Farenheit 911. Bush has no intention of bringing true democracy to the Arab world, Bush's agenda is to continue America's dependency on that regions energy sources, so everyone vested(Iranian mullahs, the Saudi Royal family, American corporation) can continue to make billions for the next few decades.

Bush's plans go even deeper, do you really really believe that the Chinese government and Russia wants America to develop useable alternative energy sources? China is extremely happy, the gov't, not the normal people, extremely happy Bush won, Russia's Vladmir Putin is extremely happy his "partner in the war on terror" got re-elected. These countries can not use alternative energy, and can not afford to have the world place bans on traditional sources of energy. China needs oil, coal, natural gas. Russia needs to sell oil, the whole Arab regions relies on oil and natural gas, they can not have the world turn away from these energy sources. This is alllllllllll about money and the fight for how we drive our cars, heat our homes, etc., for the next 20, 30, or 50 years. This is not about islam, this is not about christianity, this is not about terrorism.

It is simple, American companies are directly and indirectly prospering from our reliance on traditional energy sources, Russia and the Arabs whole economies depend on Europe's and American's reliance on traditional energy sources, China, India, Pakistan etc' continued and future development relies on traditional energy sources. The world was changing, America was changing, we were getting too comfortable and starting to say, okay, its about time we think about getting away from oil, coal, etc. The people who run America said we can not have this. The towers went down, America went into turmoil, our economy went south, we had a new enemy. But that enemy wasn't to keep the fear manifested, Iraq became a threat, and now we will be fighting the war on terrorism for years. This mandates the gov't spend money, goodbye budget surpluses, hello massive budget deficits, american govern't can no longer invest in and subsidize alternative energy sources because we got a war to fight. The powerful maintain their status quo, Russia doesn't fall into chaos, China doesn't fall into chaos, the rich Arabs stay rich, and American's feel safer, everything continues as normal.

[sw33tjimmy]

conspiracies aside, i'll tell you what the deciding factor was for me.

i stood in my voting booth for a good 10 minutes or so. The only thing that I could think of was that woman from CARE with a gun obviously pointed at her head. You could tell that she knew she was going to die. I wondered how I would react in that situation.

The hostage situation infuriates me. Especially taking into consideration that they are taking women as hostages now, as well. It also infurates me that without the PRESS, these hostage takers would not have a leg to stand on... and aljazeera (as well as the US PRESS) is just as guilty of those murders as the hostage takers themselves.

I decided on Bush. I could not see Kerry, in all his flip-floppiness, ensuring justice is done. I know Bush has conviction, and to me, the most important thing right now is to make sure that those hostage takers are brought to justice. Backing down from them would be catastrophic because then these *******s would realize that all they have to do is murder a few women to get their way.

If you think it's condescending of me to think that way, moya, then why don't you go volunteer yourself to be beheaded? That would be the best way to show your sympathy to these misunderstood patriots!

[ThaMaskedGamer]

...this is a rough analogy on how Bin Laden attacked America.

Listen people, what Bin Laden and Al Qaeda did was nothing marvelous, they were allowed to attack us. Now, some American's will never ever ever believe this, no one would want to believe this, even I don't and didn't want to believe it, until I started reading. Once you read the facts that are out there in our bookstores, in our libraries, you will come to the realization that this is true. But, the people who run this country don't even care that the knowledge is out there, because they know American's will never seek that knowledge en masse. Sure a few people will uncover the facts, but most of america will look upon them as conspiracy theorists and quacks.

Before you think, that I think the people running this country don't care about America, that is not true, they do, they need America. But, sometimes a loved one is sacrificed for $$$, it happens all the time. Look at it like this, happy husband is making millions of dollars from family business, economic conditions change, happy husband sees business is failing and he will lose everything, happy husband needs an infusion of cash, but has no sources of financing. Happy husband is married for 20 years, loves wife, but not as much as he loves his yacht. Happy husband is sad, but wifey is going to have to take one for the home team. Wifey dies in car accident, happy husband collects on $2 million insurance policy......and happy husband's life as he knew it goes on.

911 was allowed to happen. It was orchestrated by our government, these people have always been trying to attack us and have for the most part always failed, because our government bureacracy was at least good enough to know who to really keep an eye. That is why, we knew who attacked us, that is why we had reams of data on Al Qaeda, that is why all these names were floating back and forth on CIA, dod, and fbi and any other security agency's computers. Well, in comes Bush, positions change, priorities are no longer priorities, funding for terrorism is cut, people are hushed, and effectively a blind eye was put up. America was slipping away from the people who run America. Oil companies were threatened, defense contractors were threatened, medical and insurance companies were threatened, China, Russia, Arabs, India and Pakistan(now nuke powers and countries with tons of manpower) were threatened, all of these powerful interest were threatened by American prosperity.

Because now that your 401K was growing, everyone had good jobs, the country had tons of money in surplus, everyone was going to college, Russia fell, China was turning capitalist. That means people start thinking about other problems, okay, now that we have conquered everything else, let's do something about health care, let's do something about our reliance on oil, let's cut back all these billion dollar defense weapons, let's straighten our these HMOs and insurance companies, why are we paying so much for prescription medicine, hey let's do something positive for the world with part of our governments surpluses let focus on AIDS, AFRICA, drugs. Now, the problem was the people running this country, would stand to lose BILLIONS of dollars. And that just wasn't going to be allowed to happen.

Yesterday on Wall Street recovered after Kerry conceded the election. But, not every company faired so well. Companies pushing alternative energy sources lost, companies pushing stem cell research lost. The WallStreet Journal, and Forbes for the past few months have been writing columns about which companies their readers should invest in if Kerry wins or if Bush wins. If Bush wins we all know who the companies that will do well are, but it is interesting that they point out the companies that stand to do bad. Basically, they said companies like Wal-mart, the HomeDepot, Ford, GM, other retailers would not do well under Bush. They said the middle class real wages will continue to decline, and these companies rely on US. They gave alternatives, so instead of investing in Walmart, invest in retail stores that cater to the rich, instead of Ford invest in luxury automotive dealers, Yacht manufacturers, small jet manufacturers that cater to the rich and business execs.

America is back on course, what the hell were we thinking. This is all our fault, while we were busy thinking about how to give ourselves healthcare, and cure aids and cancer, and stem cell research, and ghast! allowing gays to get married. Those evil terrorists caught us sleeping. Well not anymore, not with George W. Bush on watch.

[trebor]

I think after what happened in the 2000 election, people like myself have become disillusioned with the whole "democratic" process. Would I like to believe that the 2004 election was fair and un-corrupted? Yes, of course I'd like to believe that - but I don't.

With all the new touch-screen voting computers, developed by companies with Republicans on the board of directors mind you, there is no paper trail - so there is no way to prove if the numbers we ended up with are even remotely accurate. But as Bush so eloquently stated in the 2000 election, if your vote wasn't counted too bad. Plus, with the, um, patriotic movement lead by Republicans to challenge voters eligiblity - many voters were turned away from the polls, being coerced into giving up their rights.

Bush has done nothing but polarize the country to the point that we are indeed a nation divided. Is a divided nation a strong one? Absolutely not. Do I think Bush will be able to unite the country and start the "healing"? Nope. Bush has lied to the American people, used 9/11 as a tool to accomplish his own political aims, and has made himself and his crony minions very wealthy at the expense of the lives of honest 18, 19, and 20 year old soldiers. He has used 9/11 to promote the Patriot Act, our nations first step towards an Orwellian 1984-like society.

I wish people would just look at the big picture...like the FACT that 9/11 happened on Bush's watch - despite the specific warnings left by the Clinton administration over the REAL threat of Bin Ladin. And look where we are today - Bin Ladin is STILL out there, making threats to us. Given these FACTS, how can anyone in their right mind believe that Bush is "tough" on terrorism?

This election has proved to me that, 1) people value their partisianship over what's best for the country, 2) people will vote with their religious beliefs before they will vote with their minds, 3) the bumpkins outnumber us. :p

[meagher72]

The word Civil War comes to mind.....

[trebor]

Kennedy I can understand...he was assassinated...but Paul Wellstone?! I know first-hand what that guy was about...I won't talk about it as I do have some respect for the dead. But he was no model politician ( unless by "model" you mean typical). He represented my state after all. And there was no assassination about it. It was an accident, the only reason that it was ever blown out of proportion was that he was famous and it was close to election time. The fact is, while plane crashes are a rarity, when you're at a time of heavy travel and you're constantly on smaller engine craft, your chances of a crash go up. Now while it's still a small chance, it does happen.

Well, guess what? Wellstone represented my state as well (hello neighbor ;) ) You might not have agreed with what he stood for, but you can't deny that Wellstone spoke with honesty and truly believed in what he was fighting for - which was a refreshing change, and also why he was so beloved by so many Minnesotans.

Although to completely deny that there is even a possibility of foul play is insane. Think about it, if there was ever a political enemy to Bush, it was Wellstone. And if there was anybody who has ties to make an assassination look like an accident it's Bush. Daddy Bush was the head of the CIA for frig sake.

Now, that might sound like a paranoid delusion to you, but just because you're NOT paranoid doesn't mean they AREN'T out to get you.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

conspiracies aside, i'll tell you what the deciding factor was for me.

i stood in my voting booth for a good 10 minutes or so. The only thing that I could think of was that woman from CARE with a gun obviously pointed at her head. You could tell that she knew she was going to die. I wondered how I would react in that situation.

The hostage situation infuriates me. Especially taking into consideration that they are taking women as hostages now, as well. It also infurates me that without the PRESS, these hostage takers would not have a leg to stand on... and aljazeera (as well as the US PRESS) is just as guilty of those murders as the hostage takers themselves.

I decided on Bush. I could not see Kerry, in all his flip-floppiness, ensuring justice is done. I know Bush has conviction, and to me, the most important thing right now is to make sure that those hostage takers are brought to justice. Backing down from them would be catastrophic because then these *******s would realize that all they have to do is murder a few women to get their way.

If you think it's condescending of me to think that way, moya, then why don't you go volunteer yourself to be beheaded? That would be the best way to show your sympathy to these misunderstood patriots!


Well, take a step back. Before the Iraq war, who do you think was a greater problem? North Korea or Saddam Hussein? Iran or Hussein? What people do you think actually had more freedom, North Koreans or Iraqis? And just how many dictatorships are we going to overthrow, because its the right thing to do? You really believe we have the manpower to overthrow every dictatorship in the world. Did you know that estimates of half a million to 1 million people were killed in Rawanda genocides. Did you know that North Korea has a city, a whole city that is basically a prison, it holds 250,000 prisoners, including whole familes, kids, people who ever said anything bad about Kim Jong. Did you know the women in that prison city, if they become pregnant while there the babies are killed upon birth.

So, now that the reason for war, is no longer WMD and I guess, never was WMD, it was all along, to remove a dictator. Why did Bush start with Iraq? The citizens of Iraq were far better off than millions of people in Africa, North Korea, and did you know the average Iraqi citizen at that time, had a better standard of living than the average citizen in India? And, the citizens of Iraq were suffereing largely because of our sanctions, which were necessary, but not really because of Hussein. Now, the question is not whether Saddam was a bad guy. But, there are tons of bad guys out there running countries worse than Iraq, we can not go kill them all, and rebuild all of their nations. If you believe this, then why don't u sign up for the service and get started.

Now, with all that knowledge you just got, ask yourself, why did Bush start with Iraq? If you don't know the answer, it is truly sad. There is only one answer, we all know what it is. This is Cheney before the war, we go in and be finished in less than 2 months, we will be welcomed in the streets, there will be no casualties, and this is what Cheney was telling Bush, but not Americans, we will make Billions of dollars in the reconstruction from the oil and from American taxpayers.

yes, that is right. That $87 billion dollar package, was money from all of us, that was going directly to American corporations to rebuild Iraq. They were going to make money off of us, and from the Iraqi. But, it didn't work out that way. It turned out, Iraqi people and muslims did feel like being invaded by America today. Now, what those insurgents are doing is horrific, and nobody is on their side, but this problem was created by Bush. He is the reason why. If we did not go on in, Hussein would be right there or possibly removed, either way he'd be contained by Iran and the rest of the world. We could have caught Bin Laden, and had a coalition to deal more strongly with North Korea and Iranian nukes.

Of course, now that Bush went in, Kerry would have had to finish the job. We owe that to Iraq. People who we are bombing, kids and women. You are outraged cause they kidnap and kill female hostages, rightly so, be outraged cause it is horrific. But, did you know that we have killed thousands of women and children, old people and young people, who were innocent in Iraq, because of our military doctrines. We will drop an entire building housing dozens of innocents to get at an insurgent. We are doing far more damage in the way we prosecute this war, killing far more people than the insurgents are killing. And we are doing this, because we don't want our soldiers to get killed. We practiced urban combat, house to house fighting, they now teach that to infantry soldiers. This is how you go get insurgents, without killing hundreds of innocents. But, if we fought house to house, our military would have about 5,000 dead right now, instead of 1200. This is why Iraq is like Vietnam, because our military is not fighting a real war, they are fighting a political war, and they are using tactics that can not succeed to keep up false impressions.

Anyway, I can not educate, convince, or dissuade you. America has now chosen this course, it is sad, but you will all see, there will not be a rosy outcome. Those people hate our guts and will die for their cause, are we willing to die for Iraq. You might be, but like Bush said, Kerry can't win cause he isn't commited to the war. I was in the service for 6 years, I got friends still in. NO ONE wants to be in Iraq, the ones there are waiting to come home and get out of the Army. You can't win a war that you are commited to win, guess what Bush, your troops are not commited like you are. During WorldWar2 soldiers were commited, they believed they were fighting and dying for a greater cause, and that is how we overcame horrendous odds. So ask yourself, the odds are in our favor, why are we not winning? The enemy is more committed than we are.

[sw33tjimmy]

the 'bumpkins' outnumber 'us'? Wow, that's about the stupidest thing I've heard in a LONG time. I suppose you're going to tell me next that there wasn't a single person in any large city that voted for Bush?

Oh, and the only reason he won was because the election was 'rigged'? Talk about some sore losers. I expect that kind of talk out of an Xbot, trebor. Are you sure you're not one of us?

The fact of the matter is most people vote for the candidate that serves their best interest. Democrats routinely crap on rural america. My own father's farm has never recovered from the clinton administration. Most likely it never will. Damn straight people will vote with their own self-interests in mind. It's been our right since the 1700's.

And people, please cut out the whole conspiracy theory crap. You think we as a race of creatures who have achieved things like space travel and instantaneous internation communications... would be stumped when it comes to counting/tracking votes? butch up and stop whining. Kerry lost. time to move on.

[sw33tjimmy]

TMG-
what makes you think I didn't know any of that? At this point, it's a matter of principle. I'm not saying I supported the sending of troops over. You are the first "troop" i've heard from that doesn't seem to think we're doing any good over there.

I'd ask you for your sources in regard to how the US Army is obliterating all Iraqi civilians, but judging by your other posts, you're so far left that I'd probably just laugh at you.

[trebor]

the 'bumpkins' outnumber 'us'? Wow, that's about the stupidest thing I've heard in a LONG time. I suppose you're going to tell me next that there wasn't a single person in any large city that voted for Bush?

You don't think the "good ol' boy" mentality of the bible beaters didn't play a part? Whatever. And as I said before, I think people in large cities DID vote for Bush - out of some twisted partisian commitment.


Oh, and the only reason he won was because the election was 'rigged'? Talk about some sore losers. I expect that kind of talk out of an Xbot, trebor. Are you sure you're not one of us?

Yes, and Florida 2000 elections proved without a doubt that the electoral process is flawless and without any corruption? You're living in a dream world. How can anybody trust in the system after that debacle?


The fact of the matter is most people vote for the candidate that serves their best interest. Democrats routinely crap on rural america. My own father's farm has never recovered from the clinton administration. Most likely it never will. Damn straight people will vote with their own self-interests in mind. It's been our right since the 1700's.

Right. Clinton setting it up so farmers would be payed to keep their product in silos was a real slap in the face, huh? Getting paid to let your crop rot, that's being "crapped on"?


And people, please cut out the whole conspiracy theory crap. You think we as a race of creatures who have achieved things like space travel and instantaneous internation communications... would be stumped when it comes to counting/tracking votes?

Florida 2000. Hello? Is anybody in there? Florida 2000. This isn't conspiracy this is irrefutable PROOF that we ARE stumped when it comes to counting/tracking votes. Your utter lack of skepticism is incredibly surprising to me.

[no.1gamer]

I can't help but think that many of the responses in this thread are from kids who aren't even old enough to vote in the first place. Of course every opinion is welcome though, right.

1st and foremost, Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and used them on innocent people. The country was run by a terrorist and used weapons of mass destruction on innocent people. Do you guys just not care about people who are being oppressed by some lunatic who has weapons of mass destruction? Not everywhere is a happy and safe place to live like it is here in the US.

And most of the absentee ballots that haven't been counted yet would be heavily in favor of the current president Bush because they come from troops overseas. Wow! Imagine that! The people actually fighting this war support Bush! It's a good thing they're not complaining like a bunch of 10 year olds like some of the people on this website!

I think Kerry's major downfall is that his entire campain relied on his whole anti Iraqi Freedom views. If it wasn't for that I might have actually voted for the guy.

[sw33tjimmy]

trebor,
You obviously are only repeating what you hear other people say about farmers. I never said anything about subsidies (and honestly, I don't believe in them for ANYONE). What killed the agriculture industry in my neck of the woods was the fact that the clinton administration allowed the apple market to be flooded by chinese apples. 80+ years of my family's livelihood was obliterated in one harvest. Now that's a way to win the rural vote.

don't fricking demonize farmers, especially when you know so little about the situation. My dad is the hardest working man I know. He's 65 and he cannot afford to retire unless he sells the land that his family has worked for generations. And he won't do that because money isn't what's important in his eyes.

[Deathstroke]

That's it! Right there folks! It's exactly this kind of condescending, arrogant attitude that most of the rest of the sane world detest about Bush and his neocon cronies.

But, just for the sake of argument, what exactly do you think your serious 'ass whuppin' would accomplish? What has happened in Iraq? What's happening in Israel? Since when has waging a conventional war against unconventional terrorists worked?

How about getting off your soapbox for a bit? It'll do you some good.

What my 'serious ass whuppin' would accomplish would be for a few corrupt regimes to be taken down and hopefully prosperous countries put in their place.

And TMG, I know that Bush's agenda isn't really the betterment of these countries. However, that really has no bearing on how I view this situation. I don't care what Bush's agenda is. If a couple of these countries get turned around because of his actions he will have performed just as I wish. And in the end, him being in power is also good for my own home country of Pakistan.

[Sepia Soule]

...

I wonder if Bush is going to reopen the Draft...because, after all, there was a rally of minorities wanting equal rights, so we (being a minority) got more equal rights...which is why many minorities than ever are in Iraq. I have 3 friends down there. An African American Major, a hispanic Infantry, and a Korean Medic. All three already came back to the U.S. and went back to Iraq. They share their stories with me...and they all agree that this "war" is pointless...especially when they all say that they cannot shoot the enemy; due to the fact that they have to undergo paperwork to certify that they can shoot the person that is shooting back at them.
Not only that, but they also tell me that most of the soldiers out there has not passed the grasping concept of basic training. so soldiers are accidentally shooting other soldiers. If the draft starts...I might get enlisted...and be a part of something that I don't want to be a part of.
Yeah...I may move to another country...
Then there's that black vote supression that keeps on coming up. And now that the republicans control the majority of the senate seats, they could pretty much enforce anything that comes along in their minds...wow they could even send me to some foreign land to die...they'd never send their own children.
I might as well use the amendment that allows me to bare arms...but because I'm a minority, that amendment passes me because of previous minorities's actions with that amendment. I can't protect myself even if I wanted to...

Thanks for voting for Bush, guys. You have placed my life, and many other lives at risk. Sure, you can buy your way out of trouble, or even use your racial background to get through things...I can't...nor can others...nor can people with a low income...
You know, at the end of the day, it all comes down to preserving one's self. So it may come to the point of me laying low...going underground for awhile...

Give a man no options, and you leave a man no choice.

But hey...things might not be so bad...but you have to prepare, you know.

[And_so_it_goes]

Tyranny of the Majority?

Christian values trumped all social, economic and international issues. But what if you're not christian and actually cared about that other stuff? It's a fair election no doubt, but you still have to wonder if Bush realizes why he won, where he won, and that because of that he doesn't have Amercia's go-ahead to change the theings the majority still disagrees with him about.


Values, Morality, Ethics. I find it very strange that it is the fundamentalist, evangelical conservatives who have a monopoly on and a kind of ownership of these domains. Afterall, what does it mean to be a person of strong values? Ironically, I disagree with almost everything Bush and his administration has done in the past four years precisely because I disagree with the moral and/or ethical nature of those actions. I think what he is doing in Iraq and his justification for it is moraly wrong. I think abandoning environmental safe-guards and treaties to instead pass deceptively named legislation, like the clear skies act- which only allows companies to pollute more than they already do- is moraly wrong. I think giving back enormous tax cuts to the extremely rich while increasing taxes on the poor and middle class is moraly wrong. Unfortunately, I could go on, and on. What's important to realize, is that regardless of your religious faith (I personally am not religious but a person very much concerned with ethical issues) moral and ethical issues and decisions are completely independent from any person's claim to a particular religion.

[trebor]

trebor,
You obviously are only repeating what you hear other people say about farmers. I never said anything about subsidies (and honestly, I don't believe in them for ANYONE). What killed the agriculture industry in my neck of the woods was the fact that the clinton administration allowed the apple market to be flooded by chinese apples. 80+ years of my family's livelihood was obliterated in one harvest. Now that's a way to win the rural vote.

don't fricking demonize farmers, especially when you know so little about the situation. My dad is the hardest working man I know. He's 65 and he cannot afford to retire unless he sells the land that his family has worked for generations. And he won't do that because money isn't what's important in his eyes.

I'm not demonizing farmers, and you really don't know me, so don't assume about what I do or don't know.

Nothing personal about your father, but times have moved on. A lot of small businesses have disappeared due to corporations - thats a simple fact. You can't really go into the field of blacksmithing and expect to make a living like they did in the 1600s, so why should farmers be any different?

Large corporations run farms are faster, more efficient and produce larger yields. No single farmer can compete like that so they either can move on to other ventures - like many farmers in the midwest now have wind turbines on their property. It powers their homes, and makes them money - people have to ADAPT. They can't stagnate and cry when the world moves on.

[Spastic Colon Powell]

Well, guess what? Wellstone represented my state as well (hello neighbor ;) ) You might not have agreed with what he stood for, but you can't deny that Wellstone spoke with honesty and truly believed in what he was fighting for - which was a refreshing change, and also why he was so beloved by so many Minnesotans.

Although to completely deny that there is even a possibility of foul play is insane. Think about it, if there was ever a political enemy to Bush, it was Wellstone. And if there was anybody who has ties to make an assassination look like an accident it's Bush. Daddy Bush was the head of the CIA for frig sake.

Now, that might sound like a paranoid delusion to you, but just because you're NOT paranoid doesn't mean they AREN'T out to get you.

I thought I was the only Minnesotan to ever come to this board....

I will agree that there is the possibility. I just think that Wellstone's death was a tragic accident and nothing more.

And as for the MN thing...I won't ask specifics, some people get a little weird about that..but are you in the Twin Cities Metro then?

[trebor]

I thought I was the only Minnesotan to ever come to this board....

I will agree that there is the possibility. I just think that Wellstone's death was a tragic accident and nothing more.

And as for the MN thing...I won't ask specifics, some people get a little weird about that..but are you in the Twin Cities Metro then?

I do live in a Twin Cities Metro Suburban area, to be sure. PM me and I'll tell you which city I live in. :D

Also, I agree...Wellstones death was tragic, whether it was an accident or not.

[T.Tashi]

Bush said let's isolate Iran, let's use an economic isolation policy and work with the rest of the world to put pressue on Iran to not enrich uranium...

Bush's plan worked so well, almost too well. Just last week Iran signed a multibillion dollar deal with China for China to develop one of their oil fields, in exchange for a natural gas.

Just this week, India signed a multibillion dollar deal to finance the development of Iran's second largest natural gas reserve.

Earlier this year Japan signed similar deals, Russia and several European countries already have similar deals in place.

So Bush has done a great job convincing the world to follow his lead and isolate Iran, I mean all this isolation last week convinced the Iranian government to ratify a law that mandates that they will enrich uranium. After the vote, Iranian leaders publicly decried death to America, and stated America is their number 1 enemy. What Bush has done is not isolate Iran, but he has isolated America from the rest of the world.

He has made the same mistakes with North Korea. Now both of those countries view our position as very weak and have the upper hands in any negotiations because they know our military is stretched thin, and we have no 'real' coalition partners.

Bush has done a bang up job with our allies. In fact, Bush has given the EU resolve to try and become a super-power again. With 455 million people, Europe's problems have been that the countries were all too divided. Now, they have a common threat, that is motivating them to try and work together to possibly build a European defense with balls. Journalist are dubbing their vision, the United States Of Europe. What is this common threat they perceive, terrorism? Nope, it is the United States of America.

Oh, and let's not forget Bush's masterful work with our economy. Never mind the fact that our deficit is so high right now, that John Kerry if elected and with a reversal of the Bush tax cut, he would only be able to chop the deficit in half in four years, now that he is not elected, imagine how high the deficit is going to be after another four years. This is a burden that my children will have to face.

Continuing on with the economy, now Bush is planning on privatizing social security. Well, this will be just disastrous. I don't know how all of you have faired in your 401k accounts, but i'm getting creamed. This will open up a ton of business however for Banks, Investment Firms, and Wall Street, as all the "saavy" investors, excuse me, read that, all the people with real inside information and knowledge that can never have access to, watches all of our money go directly into their investment accounts. Which, oh by the way, thanks to Bush, get taxed at lower rates than your yearly salary of $30,000 - $90,000 whatever it may be. Just imagine, a millionaire, sitting on his ass, making millions of dollars in capital gains from investments, will be paying less taxes on money he is making in his spair time, than the money you need earn to live on.

Oh, and those poor soldiers in Iraq. Sign up for 2 years, get drafted into service for four years. Glad i'm out, and i'll never go back. When something pops off between us and Iran or North Korea, and we don't have the troops, don't come knocking on my door, but the Bush twins look like they'll make fine soldiers.

Some one said, if you don't like this country move, or that people who are complaining, have never even been outside the country. Well, I've lived in Europe for 2 years, and i've been to Asia and Latin America. While, I can't up and leave, it is not that easy. One day, I do hope to live abroad. This country, for working class people, has seen its best days. When Bush and conservatives say things will get better, it will only get better for owners, owners of land(no, not just your home), and capital, and businesses.

Now, I know, people will think i'm poor. Wrong, my household earns well over $125K. I have a BA in Business from Michigan, and i'm currently earning advanced degrees. I'm not worried about myself, so much as I am worried about just the state of this country and the future of the world.

If you people don't know the facts, I suggest you read, subscribe to Newsweek, WSJ(which is pro-bush, of course), get a book called Bush World by Maureen Dowd to really learn about how close the whole Bush dynasty is with the Saudis and the Bin Laden family. It is not just business ties, the Bush family and Saudi Royal family, are practically family. This was no ordinary Republican versus Democrat election, this one was one that the country got wrong. And we are going to be paying for this one for decades. And down the line, I really don't want to hear Americans complaining. The first Bush election, okay, caught us all by surprise. But this time around, people gave this man a mandate, by a wide margin. You asked for it, now here it comes. All those poor(financially poor) Southern whites, you are just so ignorant, it is just amazing that they all believe Bush cares about them. You will all be canon fodder for Bush.
If you note how much the value of the U.S. dollar has fallen, your post is really scary and I wouldn't disagree with any of it. Actually... agreeing with you is weird. We gotta get back to arguing about games. :) Unfortunately I've been out of that mode so long, I don't have any fodder. I'm in the middle of a graduate program myself and it's really kickin' my ass.

[sw33tjimmy]

people have to ADAPT. They can't stagnate and cry when the world moves on.

just like all you angry little people are so willing to accept another 4 years with bush?
I'm not sure if you read what I wrote or not. Big business did not put my dad under. The market being flooded by chinese apples did. Chinese work a lot cheaper than US minimum wage. Therefore chinese apples are much cheaper. When that happens, the US farmer has to sell his crop at an immense loss. And despite what you think, they don't get government subsidies to cover the loss.

i'm done with this. Everyone here has already made up his mind. We just come here to ***** and moan.

[T.Tashi]

LOL, I was born in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia so technically I am a filthy sand-n****r. And on top of that I'm Muslim. OMG, teh horror!!!!!!!!!! :D

Eeeeeek!!!! :eek: *Tashi runs away in terror*

[Spastic Colon Powell]

people have to ADAPT. They can't stagnate and cry when the world moves on.

just like all you angry little people are so willing to accept another 4 years with bush?
I'm not sure if you read what I wrote or not. Big business did not put my dad under. The market being flooded by chinese apples did. Chinese work a lot cheaper than US minimum wage. Therefore chinese apples are much cheaper. When that happens, the US farmer has to sell his crop at an immense loss. And despite what you think, they don't get government subsidies to cover the loss.

i'm done with this. Everyone here has already made up his mind. We just come here to ***** and moan.


My grandfather and uncle kept the family farming business going until within the last 8 years or so. Then they pretty much had to sell everything to not quite break even. Government subsidies?! I don't think so....more of a notice on how much back-tax they now owe on previous "surpluses" (In other words, the years they broke even)....

[T.Tashi]

Subsidies are made in the name of family farms and should go to small farms but the truth is, small farms are not the main recipients. Financial tycoons and Fortune 500 corporations get tons of money from farm programs; money that should be going to ma and pa, but payments go to farmers residing in the unlikely places like Aspen and Atherton.

My family still has 250 acres with soybeans on it in Arkansas.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Trebor's post about the electronic voting machines are more real than most american's even know.

Oh, and SweetJimmy, no i'm not pulling any of what I said outta my ass. Everything that i've said and learned has come from major US publications and Editorials, magazines such as Forbes, Newsweek, the WSJ, online media sites from MSNBC to USATODAY. From books by people, that are right in our bookstores, collecting dust. And what i'm saying isn't even the tip of the iceberg. I was actually going to say something about the election process, but I said, no let me shut-up. That is until Trebor made his post, and it was discounted as Democrats whining.

People, this is straight from Popular Mechanics. Poplular Mechanic's people, a magazine that isn't even political. First, let me start by saying, an executive on the board of the Diebold, the largest maker of these electronic voting machines, said at a republican fund raiser, "Mr. Bush don't worry, we will deliver the election for you." Now, I didn't get this from Popular Mechanics, CNN the other day ran the tape and it came straight from the horses mouth, accompanied by video too. The guy flatly said that in his tuxedo at one of the private corporate fund-raising galas for Mr.Bush. Okay, back to the Popular Mechanics article. You guys can go out and grab this issue right now, still probably on the stands. After this guy gave this speech, he was slapped on the wrist by Diebold. But people started looking at these machines. California after tested the machines, and the California Secretary of State decided they would not use the machines in the election. Now, there are about 4 or 5 companies that make these machines. But, Diebold is the largest. The State of Maryland, asked NSA computer experts to test the machines. NSA experts tested the machines and found out they run windows 2000 and 1998 era microprocessors, if connected to any server, they are just as susceptible to viruses and worms, as your and my computers, except our computers probably have protection. They found out that all the machines use the same key, so any one of the keys, can open up any machine. Oh, and if you don't have a key, NSA was able to open the machines with a paper clip. The source code for the machines main program was obtained somehow and leaked on the internet. The machines do not print out a record of th voters selections, in case of a recount, they can not be used. All in all the NSA security experts came up with 9 recommendations they wanted implemented before they could be relied upon in the elections. Only a few of the, according to Popular Mechanics were implemented. Why? Because the government said it would be too costly and there wasn't enough time to get it done before the election.

Now, Popular Mechanics said if the government(State and Federal Gov'ts) had of went with other companies with expertise in this area, every state could have had secure machines, that printed out a receipt showing your selections. Machines that countries like Brazil and India happen to use in their countries, but we can't afford it for the most important so-called democracy in the world. Now, PM, said the governments should have went with makers of Lottery machines and slot machines, because they have expertise in making secure machines. Now, it is a damn shame, that state governments will use these companies to make their precious lottery machines, but not use that same expertise for voting machines. Only one state, one measily state, according to popular mechanics, had secure machines, that can print out receipts. That one state Nevada, only represents 1.5% of the voting poplulation of this country. So, imagine that, in America, only 1.5% of the voting population had access to secure, accurate machines that can print out receipts. Why? Well Nevada, with their close relationship with the gaming industry, decided to use go to a company that specializes in making these kind of machines.

Now, i'm not going to get into the election debacle, some one else mentioned the schemes Republicans were using before the election, such as challenging absentee votes, some how states losing 50,000 absentee ballots, dissauding ignorant minorities from voting, the long lines, etc. But, let me mention one story, that appeared on CNN, the morning of voting on election day in Florida. A woman said she went to vote, made all of her selections on one of these Diebold machines, the company that makes the most used during the election. She picked an all democratic ticket, when she got to the review screen, it had George Bush as her selection for presidency. She went to get a poll worker, and they said to her, let's go back on the machine maybe u made a mistake. She said no, she wanted a lawyer, a lawyer came over and had her do it again on another machine, she said she did the same thing, and this time Kerry came out. CNN asked her, what they did with the previous machine, and she said she didn't know. Now, she wasn't the first person to use that machine, that made the mistake. Now, you tell me, Florida, with its largest turnout in over 40 years, with the largest hispanic and black turnout ever at the polls, Bush won by over 300,000 votes.


Also, someone said, the military absentee votes favored Bush, so who am I talking to in the military that doesn't like Bush. First, let me say, the military community has largely favored the Republicans, that is true, everyone knows that. But, the military is more than just the Marines, and the Army ground-pounders. The military absentee vote includes people in the Navy, Air Force, Army and Marines, it includes people in Iraq and people in Japan. So, even with the fact, and believe me it is a fact, that the guys on the ground in Iraq, want the hell out, and didn't want Bush. You still have all the other armed forces abroad, who aren't in any danger, they don't see the war from the same perspective as guys on the ground in Iraq.

Anyway, someone else up above basically said the election is over, so shut up or move out of the country, get over it. Yes, that is true. America has given Bush a mandate. A mandate not just on the war. But a mandate to continue our current health care system, to continue supporting pharmaceutical companies, a mandate to elect convervatives on the supreme court to overturn abortion, a mandate to privatize social security, a mandate to continue to allow assault weapons on our streets, a mandate to continue to destroy our environment, a mandate to neutralize any real efforts to bring about alternative energy sources, because companies can't fund the research alone with our gov't subsidiies,but the gov't money for all that is going to go bye-bye because of the deficits. We have given him mandates to pursue his agenda of pre-emptive strikes, even though he will never pre-emptively strike the real threats, Iran and North Korea. So Mr.Bush, told you the truth people, he didn't lie to you. Everything I said, is what he said he is for. And now you have given him the okay. So, that is right Jimmy and who ever else said shut up, in the next four years, you too shut up, and don't cry when you finally realize how all of this will affect you.

I know right now, this year, my health insurance premiums are going up again, and will cover less, after a record increase last year. So, America, you asked for it, don't complain. I think this is a perfect forum for this kind of discussion. Us older guys, none of this may really matter. But, the younger guys reading this, maybe it can at least motivate you guys to go out there and get educated beyond what you've learned in school and what see on TV. Shyat is real deep out there. And we just set the country on a path that sacrifices your future. So, i'm done, with this thread. I'm shutting up, now its time to sit back and save and prepare for the worse. Cause it is going to get worse people, believe it.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

If you note how much the value of the U.S. dollar has fallen, your post is really scary and I wouldn't disagree with any of it. Actually... agreeing with you is weird. We gotta get back to arguing about games. :) Unfortunately I've been out of that mode so long, I don't have any fodder. I'm in the middle of a graduate program myself and it's really kickin' my ass.


Yeah, I feel you Tashi, the dollar right now is about $1.30 compared to the Euro, the Euro for heaven's sake. It use to be the other way around just a few years ago.

Most our new debt our treasury bills aren't even being bought by American companies or investors. Foreign countries are financing us now, those record deficits are owed to other countries banks. Which is not so so bad, but the problem is now America isn't in charge of its own future. If these countries stop lending us money, we are in trouble. Its just like a family with a credit card and home loan, car loan. The more you have to borrow, the worse the interest rates and terms get, and if we have a major major war, I mean if we have to fight North Korea, we are really then going to have to borrow money, we will get raped by world banks, they won't give a damn, the dollar will go to shyat, our economy which is fragile will become destablized, and that little recession we went through, people will look upon that as a Utopian time. Mr.Bush has given us very little wiggle room for the future, if something goes seriously wrong in the next four years, we are in for a world of hurt. The price of gas will shoot to $3 a barrel, the travel and air industries will buckle and fold, and the domino effect will just kick in. All those UPS and FedEX trucks and flight, our major distrubution network in the country relies on 18 wheelers and jets, fuel will be so high, the price of goods will go up.......ohhhhhhh let me shut up.

Damn you Tashi, I hate the PS2.....yeah, that feels so much better. :D

[The Prince of Darkness]

b. sense enough to think for themselves and not be influenced by horrible celebrities, no truly talented celebs support ANY party publicly.

celebs like the Governor of California and his scrawney wife :D

g. knowledge that sheep, which DO believe and do as commanded everything a celebrity tells them are actually LESS than people who think for themselves (like the borg)

celebs like the Governor of California and his scrawney wife :D

[mandark]

celebs like the Governor of California and his scrawney wife :D



celebs like the Governor of California and his scrawney wife :D

Hey, be nice. The Governor of California and his scrawney wife may very well be your next President and 1st Lady. ;)

[T.Tashi]

Yeah, I feel you Tashi, the dollar right now is about $1.30 compared to the Euro, the Euro for heaven's sake. It use to be the other way around just a few years ago.

Most our new debt our treasury bills aren't even being bought by American companies or investors. Foreign countries are financing us now, those record deficits are owed to other countries banks. Which is not so so bad, but the problem is now America isn't in charge of its own future. If these countries stop lending us money, we are in trouble. Its just like a family with a credit card and home loan, car loan. The more you have to borrow, the worse the interest rates and terms get, and if we have a major major war, I mean if we have to fight North Korea, we are really then going to have to borrow money, we will get raped by world banks, they won't give a damn, the dollar will go to shyat, our economy which is fragile will become destablized, and that little recession we went through, people will look upon that as a Utopian time. Mr.Bush has given us very little wiggle room for the future, if something goes seriously wrong in the next four years, we are in for a world of hurt. The price of gas will shoot to $3 a barrel, the travel and air industries will buckle and fold, and the domino effect will just kick in. All those UPS and FedEX trucks and flight, our major distrubution network in the country relies on 18 wheelers and jets, fuel will be so high, the price of goods will go up.......ohhhhhhh let me shut up.

Damn you Tashi, I hate the PS2.....yeah, that feels so much better. :D
Yeah you're depressing me. Another recession predicted for 2005, rising gas cost, natural gas cost (just got the heating bill today) and I just got married so the rise in healthcare costs hit me hard cause I had to cover the wife too in addition to the rising cost. I really have to watch my spending. Which is lucky for you otherwise I'd buy an Xbox and whoop up on you on Live. Btw, Sony made the Ps2 smaller. You'd think Microsoft would be kind enough to do the same. :D

[The Prince of Darkness]

Hey, be nice. The Governor of California and his scrawney wife may very well be your next President and 1st Lady. ;)

The sad part is that it could certainly happen.

[mandark]

Btw, Sony made the Ps2 smaller. You'd think Microsoft would be kind enough to do the same. :D

Amazing, isn't it? A smaller, slimmer X-box may just be what is needed to really stomp the GC into the ground especially this holiday. How hard could it be to take obsolete notebook parts and label it an X-box? :D

[mandark]

The sad part is that it could certainly happen.

What? You thought I was kidding? The last time I heard someone is trying to petition to ammend the constitution to allow exactly this to happen. It sounds like somebody was watching too much Demolition Man.

[trebor]

Hey, be nice. The Governor of California and his scrawney wife may very well be your next President and 1st Lady. ;)

Nope - not unless they change some laws around (which they very well could, I suppose). Currently, to even run for president, you MUST have been born in the United States. Period.

Sorry, but Ahnold will never be our president. :D

[mandark]

Nope - not unless they change some laws around (which they very well could, I suppose). Currently, to even run for president, you MUST have been born in the United States. Period.

Sorry, but Ahnold will never be our president. :D

Don't dismiss that notion just yet. Please refer to this site www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dsnews/067nd4.htm for more info.

"That's Mr. Ahnold to you. Mr. President Ahnold sir."

[T.Tashi]

http://harpers.org/ElectingToLeave.html :)

[Horngreen]

I have a special message for the democracks...

It's truly sad that even though the media had such a bias for Kerry he STILL didn't win, it just goes to show that the people of this nation have...

a. better taste than to watch MTV
b. sense enough to think for themselves and not be influenced by horrible celebrities, no truly talented celebs support ANY party publicly
c. the eyes to see that the moronic "protesters" continue to alienate all sane people from the democratic party
d. sense enough to see through the senseless lies presented by propaganda (yup, Michael Moore is now even more filthy rich than before)
e. sense enough not to vote for a traitor who is a hero in communist nations during times of current war
f. proof in knowing that the majority of people who could have swayed the election towards kerry didn't care enough to vote (but will probably be whining about it later)
g. knowledge that sheep, which DO believe and do as commanded everything a celebrity tells them are actually LESS than people who think for themselves (like the borg)
h. sense enough to realize the impact 9/11 has had on our economy and have ignored all the morons who think it was all Bush's fault
i. sense enough not to vote for Bin Laden's choice
j. further proof that political campaigns based on negativity and deciet will never defeat a positive message

Bush had my vote.

That is all...you may now continue hitting the bong, we will continue running the country smoothly.

Well I guess Tappy is an idiot after all...Buy a PS2 dude and leave us Xboxers alone! I can't believe you would actually be persuaded I way or another by Osama. Your stupid president nees to catch that idiot. Oh I forgot he's "not a big concern" of Bushs. I guess America chose "moral values" this time. Yes the rich kid who got through college on Cs and favors and then got a D.U.I. and then spent the 80s doing Coke and then turned back to alcohol until he discovered he had a direct line to God! He's running a phucking holy war just like the Muslims but with a different religion. Morals my ass. I guess killing "brown people" because other "brown people" from that general region attacked us is good morals? I hoped to god this thread would not be responded to because this WAS one place where people only talked about what the forum topic was. I did not have to deal with politics here but judging by the 65 responses I guess I was wrong.

[Gadfly2317]

My wife and I volunteered a lot this election. On election day, we spent from 9 am to about 7 pm with other Kerry supporters at busy intersections near polling places in Fayetteville, AR waving large Kerry signs. It was amazing, and I've never seen anything quite like it. This is Arkansas, a southern state. And Kerry is called "the most liberal senator from taxachusetts." But the amount of support was amazing. We had huge amount of honking, and thumbs up, and screaming support from car windows, and people walking up and thanking us for being there and offering to bring us hot chocolate.

When you look at the map and see "red states" and "blue states" remember that the electoral vote was split in half, and even a "hick red state" like Arkansas came very close to ending up in Kerry's column, as did our neighbor Missouri. Did you know that Bush's campaign bombed our state (and west Virginia) with flyers telling us that if Kerry won, the Bible would be banned and Gay men would be marrying each other legally. Why just our two states? Because Bush and Rove think we are stupid hicks. And lot of people here are, sadly. Just slightly, so slightly over half. That is how Bush won: exploiting people's resentments, ignorance, and fear. He had HUGE turnout vote among fundamentalists who believe the bible should be the law of the land in the same way that the Taliban believed Islam should be the law of the land.

Yes, we did have a HUGE amount of positive reaction to our pro-kerry demonstration, while down the street from us the Bush crowd was getting hardly any honking-support at all (admittedly, Fayetteville is much more progressive than most of the state.) But it wasn't all positive. There were plenty of ugly-hearted Bush supporters screaming things at us like "ni&&er lover" and "homos" and "F@#$ you freaks, Kerry's a F!#@$ing Fa&&ot." Republican's called us "communists" which is odd, since that is not the hip boogie man for scaring sheep-like Americans right now. One guy walked up menacingly to my wife and asked her "how much are they paying you to be here." He got down right argumentative and called her a liar when she said we took the day off to volunteer because we care about freedom, civil liberties, and the future of our nation. The concept of charity and civic duty seems alien to these people.

But the taunts were as uplifting as the overwhelming show of support, because it felt like a change in our country and in our state. People where motivated to get this cancer out of the white house, and those hardcore bush supporters yelling their ugly little souls out at us seemed afraid, like they were on the way out, and that maybe goodness was about to replace the resentment, bigotry, and hatred that is the ugly rotten core of the republican party and its leadership.

Maybe that sounds naive after the fact, but in the late afternoon Tuesday our elation was bolstered by the fact that exit polls in Florida and Pennsylvania had us up by 5 percent over Bush. Which honestly has me doubting the results because SoCalDem has done a statistical analysis on several swing states, and EVERY STATE that has EVoting but no paper trails has an unexplained advantage for Bush of around +5% when comparing exit polls to actual results. In EVERY STATE that has paper audit trails on their EVoting, the exit poll results match the actual results reported within the margin of error. So, we have MATCHING RESULTS for exit polls vs. voting with audits vs. A 5% unexplained advantage for Bush without audits. If you'd like links to articles regarding how easy it is to alter votes with the electronic machines manufactured by Bush supporter Diebold, and purchased by Bush's brother solely for use in democratic counties in Florida, let me know.

But what does it matter if the election was stolen or won? The result is the same--four more years that will be as good as the last four years in this country. There was a brief glimmer there Tuesday when it looked like we could take back the country from the bigots, superstitious fanatics, homophobes and warmongers. But unfortunately we didn't.

I for one am NOT uniting with the ugly-hearted people behind this beady-minded cretin of a president. Bush does not have a mandate, he had a slim margin attainted by lies, fearmongering and exploiting people's bigotry, but he's going to try and shove his extremist policies down America's throat anyway. He will not unite us by leading from the middle, and so there is no other choice but than to continue to fight him anyway we can. Inform yourself, inform your neighbors, write letters to the editor, write your congressman, work with moveon.dot org, host documentary viewing parties. . . and there are dozens of other things you can do that make a difference.

We aren't just "whining and moaning" as some like Sw33tjesus, and the rest of the "love it or leave" Bush tools here would have you believe, nor are we "sore losers" because the only thing that lost Tuesday was America and the ideals of liberty, science, truth, and integrity. You don't "unite behind the president" when he's as corrupt and owned and wrong as this as this one. You keep fighting to slow down his sick agenda. It may be difficult, but truth can eventually permeate even the thickest of skulls.

So, my fellow gamers, set down your controllers one day a week and do something to make a difference.

[T.Tashi]

My wife and I volunteered a lot this election. On election day, we spent from 9 am to about 7 pm with other Kerry supporters at busy intersections near polling places in Fayetteville, AR waving large Kerry signs. It was amazing, and I've never seen anything quite like it. This is Arkansas, a southern state. And Kerry is called "the most liberal senator from taxachusetts." But the amount of support was amazing. We had huge amount of honking, and thumbs up, and screaming support from car windows, and people walking up and thanking us for being there and offering to bring us hot chocolate.

When you look at the map and see "red states" and "blue states" remember that the electoral vote was split in half, and even a "hick red state" like Arkansas came very close to ending up in Kerry's column, as did our neighbor Missouri. Did you know that Bush's campaign bombed our state (and west Virginia) with flyers telling us that if Kerry won, the Bible would be banned and Gay men would be marrying each other legally. Why just our two states? Because Bush and Rove think we are stupid hicks. And lot of people here are, sadly. Just slightly, so slightly over half. That is how Bush won: exploiting people's resentments, ignorance, and fear. He had HUGE turnout vote among fundamentalists who believe the bible should be the law of the land in the same way that the Taliban believed Islam should be the law of the land.

Yes, we did have a HUGE amount of positive reaction to our pro-kerry demonstration, while down the street from us the Bush crowd was getting hardly any honking-support at all (admittedly, Fayetteville is much more progressive than most of the state.) But it wasn't all positive. There were plenty of ugly-hearted Bush supporters screaming things at us like "ni&&er lover" and "homos" and "F@#$ you freaks, Kerry's a F!#@$ing Fa&&ot." Republican's called us "communists" which is odd, since that is not the hip boogie man for scaring sheep-like Americans right now. One guy walked up menacingly to my wife and asked her "how much are they paying you to be here." He got down right argumentative and called her a liar when she said we took the day off to volunteer because we care about freedom, civil liberties, and the future of our nation. The concept of charity and civic duty seems alien to these people.

But the taunts were as uplifting as the overwhelming show of support, because it felt like a change in our country and in our state. People where motivated to get this cancer out of the white house, and those hardcore bush supporters yelling their ugly little souls out at us seemed afraid, like they were on the way out, and that maybe goodness was about to replace the resentment, bigotry, and hatred that is the ugly rotten core of the republican party and its leadership.

Maybe that sounds naive after the fact, but in the late afternoon Tuesday our elation was bolstered by the fact that exit polls in Florida and Pennsylvania had us up by 5 percent over Bush. Which honestly has me doubting the results because SoCalDem has done a statistical analysis on several swing states, and EVERY STATE that has EVoting but no paper trails has an unexplained advantage for Bush of around +5% when comparing exit polls to actual results. In EVERY STATE that has paper audit trails on their EVoting, the exit poll results match the actual results reported within the margin of error. So, we have MATCHING RESULTS for exit polls vs. voting with audits vs. A 5% unexplained advantage for Bush without audits. If you'd like links to articles regarding how easy it is to alter votes with the electronic machines manufactured by Bush supporter Diebold, and purchased by Bush's brother solely for use in democratic counties in Florida, let me know.

But what does it matter if the election was stolen or won? The result is the same--four more years that will be as good as the last four years in this country. There was a brief glimmer there Tuesday when it looked like we could take back the country from the bigots, superstitious fanatics, homophobes and warmongers. But unfortunately we didn't.

I for one am NOT uniting with the ugly-hearted people behind this beady-minded cretin of a president. Bush does not have a mandate, he had a slim margin attainted by lies, fearmongering and exploiting people's bigotry, but he's going to try and shove his extremist policies down America's throat anyway. He will not unite us by leading from the middle, and so there is no other choice but than to continue to fight him anyway we can. Inform yourself, inform your neighbors, write letters to the editor, write your congressman, work with moveon.dot org, host documentary viewing parties. . . and there are dozens of other things you can do that make a difference.

We aren't just "whining and moaning" as some like Sw33tjesus, and the rest of the "love it or leave" Bush tools here would have you believe, nor are we "sore losers" because the only thing that lost Tuesday was America and the ideals of liberty, science, truth, and integrity. You don't "unite behind the president" when he's as corrupt and owned and wrong as this as this one. You keep fighting to slow down his sick agenda. It may be difficult, but truth can eventually permeate even the thickest of skulls.

So, my fellow gamers, set down your controllers one day a week and do something to make a difference.
Your post is very interesting in that, it gives some validation to something else I read, particuarly in regards to racism and gay bashing. Bush won the election for 2 reasons, and neither one would have worked alone. #1 the computer voting in key states which appears was not legitimate, as well as other methods and #2 there is a very disinfranchised and fundamentally religious underclass that is still pissed about Vietnam, civil rights, affirmative action and even the civil war, which is still a touchy subject in some parts of the south.
The republicans and their various camps were very skilled in manipulating this demographic and the democrats very unskilled in that, this group probably feels both parties are gonna screw them over, but at least the republicans don't hold them in contempt, and their hatred is so strong, they are willing to say f*** you to the liberal left and/or democrats, even if it means they have to vote against their own best interests.

[Superior Beatslayer]

Yeah, screw them! Screw all of those filthy sand-n****rs. What have they ever done for the world anyway. They need to be taught some respect! And who better than our God-fearing, hometown, country-boy President George Bush!! Time for another Crusade, boys--break out a few cold ones and saddle up; we're going in... YEEHAW!


LOL, nicely put moya, especially the racial slurr.

[meagher72]

Democracy is a failure..

The people can not be trusted to rule themselves.

Read your history books.

It's the truth.

Democracy is only a prelude to empire.

[Jbaker07]

My wife and I volunteered a lot this election. On election day, we spent from 9 am to about 7 pm with other Kerry supporters at busy intersections near polling places in Fayetteville, AR waving large Kerry signs. It was amazing, and I've never seen anything quite like it. This is Arkansas, a southern state. And Kerry is called "the most liberal senator from taxachusetts." But the amount of support was amazing. We had huge amount of honking, and thumbs up, and screaming support from car windows, and people walking up and thanking us for being there and offering to bring us hot chocolate.

When you look at the map and see "red states" and "blue states" remember that the electoral vote was split in half, and even a "hick red state" like Arkansas came very close to ending up in Kerry's column, as did our neighbor Missouri. Did you know that Bush's campaign bombed our state (and west Virginia) with flyers telling us that if Kerry won, the Bible would be banned and Gay men would be marrying each other legally. Why just our two states? Because Bush and Rove think we are stupid hicks. And lot of people here are, sadly. Just slightly, so slightly over half. That is how Bush won: exploiting people's resentments, ignorance, and fear. He had HUGE turnout vote among fundamentalists who believe the bible should be the law of the land in the same way that the Taliban believed Islam should be the law of the land.

Yes, we did have a HUGE amount of positive reaction to our pro-kerry demonstration, while down the street from us the Bush crowd was getting hardly any honking-support at all (admittedly, Fayetteville is much more progressive than most of the state.) But it wasn't all positive. There were plenty of ugly-hearted Bush supporters screaming things at us like "ni&&er lover" and "homos" and "F@#$ you freaks, Kerry's a F!#@$ing Fa&&ot." Republican's called us "communists" which is odd, since that is not the hip boogie man for scaring sheep-like Americans right now. One guy walked up menacingly to my wife and asked her "how much are they paying you to be here." He got down right argumentative and called her a liar when she said we took the day off to volunteer because we care about freedom, civil liberties, and the future of our nation. The concept of charity and civic duty seems alien to these people.

But the taunts were as uplifting as the overwhelming show of support, because it felt like a change in our country and in our state. People where motivated to get this cancer out of the white house, and those hardcore bush supporters yelling their ugly little souls out at us seemed afraid, like they were on the way out, and that maybe goodness was about to replace the resentment, bigotry, and hatred that is the ugly rotten core of the republican party and its leadership.

Maybe that sounds naive after the fact, but in the late afternoon Tuesday our elation was bolstered by the fact that exit polls in Florida and Pennsylvania had us up by 5 percent over Bush. Which honestly has me doubting the results because SoCalDem has done a statistical analysis on several swing states, and EVERY STATE that has EVoting but no paper trails has an unexplained advantage for Bush of around +5% when comparing exit polls to actual results. In EVERY STATE that has paper audit trails on their EVoting, the exit poll results match the actual results reported within the margin of error. So, we have MATCHING RESULTS for exit polls vs. voting with audits vs. A 5% unexplained advantage for Bush without audits. If you'd like links to articles regarding how easy it is to alter votes with the electronic machines manufactured by Bush supporter Diebold, and purchased by Bush's brother solely for use in democratic counties in Florida, let me know.

But what does it matter if the election was stolen or won? The result is the same--four more years that will be as good as the last four years in this country. There was a brief glimmer there Tuesday when it looked like we could take back the country from the bigots, superstitious fanatics, homophobes and warmongers. But unfortunately we didn't.

I for one am NOT uniting with the ugly-hearted people behind this beady-minded cretin of a president. Bush does not have a mandate, he had a slim margin attainted by lies, fearmongering and exploiting people's bigotry, but he's going to try and shove his extremist policies down America's throat anyway. He will not unite us by leading from the middle, and so there is no other choice but than to continue to fight him anyway we can. Inform yourself, inform your neighbors, write letters to the editor, write your congressman, work with moveon.dot org, host documentary viewing parties. . . and there are dozens of other things you can do that make a difference.

We aren't just "whining and moaning" as some like Sw33tjesus, and the rest of the "love it or leave" Bush tools here would have you believe, nor are we "sore losers" because the only thing that lost Tuesday was America and the ideals of liberty, science, truth, and integrity. You don't "unite behind the president" when he's as corrupt and owned and wrong as this as this one. You keep fighting to slow down his sick agenda. It may be difficult, but truth can eventually permeate even the thickest of skulls.

So, my fellow gamers, set down your controllers one day a week and do something to make a difference.

II am not usually one to call people out Gadfly, but you said that Arkansas and Missouri almost went to Kerry, and those are simply not the facts. Arkansas went to bush by 9% of the vote and Missouri went to Bush by 7%, to me those aren’t close states but rather they clearly aligned for the Republican party. Using your argument I could say that California and Washington almost went for Bush, when in fact they went to Kerry by 11% and 9% respectively. You can check all these Facts here if you think me to be a liar. http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/front.htm?POE=HFQLCAMP
If any thing my home state of Florida barely went to Bush, and even then it went to him by 5%.

I still cant believe that even after John Kerry himself said that all Americans need to united behind the president, that democrats are still so blinded by their hatred for Bush and their love of ABBB (anybody but bush) polices that they wont even heed the words of Senator Kerry. I cant understand how I can be a republican and respect Senator Kerry, but it’s impossible for most democrats to at least respect President Bush, it is just simply mind boggling for me. It’s ironic to think that you along with most other democrats accuse the president of being a bigot and a liar, but here you are on a videogame forum hating on the President just days after the election. There is nothing wrong with an honest disagreement over things such as Iraqi and health care, but most democrats wont even hear what president has to say on these issues, they simply know that he is wrong.

The fact is that president Bush won not only because people felt that he had moral values, but that he was the best man to defend this country from terrorism. Lets be honest Kerry didn’t do himself any favors when he said that he was for preemptive wars as long as they passed the “global test”, that is not a man that I want protecting my family and friends. It also didn’t help him that he wouldn’t support the Gulf war back in 1991 even though he cited that war numerous times as how to build a “true coalition”.

In the end most Americans found Kerry's inability to make decisions and take decisive stands on issues such as Iraqi that turned people off to Kerry. In the next four years you will see the economy continue to improve, democracy in Iraqi and a stronger America. The people of American have spoken and Bush is president for another 4 years like it or not, the great part about this country is that you have the freedom to leave, should you choose to do so don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

[Jbaker07]

Democracy is a failure..

The people can not be trusted to rule themselves.

Read your history books.

It's the truth.

Democracy is only a prelude to empire.

So what kind of government would you propose? Communism? Facisim?

If you want to experience communism in all its glory move to China or Cuba, those are truely great countries. NOT.

[T.Tashi]

Meagher is right. Democracy is a failure if you look at it as a means unto itself. Democracy is an ongoing experiment; not some paradise that existed once upon a time. The constitution states we the people in order to form a more perfect union... once you forget that and you no longer strive to make it more perfect, like Meagher said it becomes a prelude to empire and history repeats itself. In fact they are different points on the same line that can come full circle. You can't lead the free world in democracy when you can't even get it right at home. Which is one reason Iraq is screwed right now. The leadership at home and abroad is failing, so the experiment is failing.

[Gadfly2317]

In the end most Americans found Kerry's inability to make decisions and take decisive stands on issues such as Iraqi that turned people off to Kerry. In the next four years you will see the economy continue to improve, democracy in Iraqi and a stronger America. The people of American have spoken and Bush is president for another 4 years like it or not, the great part about this country is that you have the freedom to leave, should you choose to do so don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out

That's exactly what I'm talking about "don't let the door hit your ass on the way out." You are saying the same thing as those intolerant dark-hearted people I was referring to that support the president. This country is NOT "love it or leave it" it is "love it, but if it's going down the wrong path it is your DUTY as an American to stand up to fight and correct the wrongs. Don't give me your pious crap about "The American People have spoken." He won by 3% of the vote. The American people have spoken in a divided voice, and this President has, and will continue not to try and unite us by governing from the center The way Bush 1 and Clinton did, but by forcing a far right agenda down America's throat as though there were some kind of national mandate for it.

There's no point in rehashing Kerry's lifelong commitment to a clear set of values, but the idea that he couldn't take stands on issues and the "flip flop" was just campaign spin and taking things out of context. I will concede he set himself up for this by being more complex and nuanced on complex nuanced issues. Bush is not--he is a master of repeating an easily comprehensible, simplistic slogan over and over and over and sticking to it no matter how many people die.


There is nothing wrong with an honest disagreement over things such as Iraqi and health care, but most democrats wont even hear what president has to say on these issues, they simply know that he is wrong.
What do you mean we "won't even hear what the president has to say?" I listened to the debates, where like a stoned porky pig he asked us if we wanted some wood and decried the disinformation on the "internets." But he had no issues. Just whines about "this is hard work" and an empty, repeated mantra, terror, terror, terror, terror. We "simply know that he is wrong?" We've seen the policies the last four years, and we know what we will get the next four. . . so, yes, we will be fighting to at least try and slow his agenda. And we will continue to try to educate voters about issues the media has ignored, but that are in the interest of most Americans. A great many people that I've talked to voted for Bush on style, and on the one issue "he seems strong on terror", but know little of the substance of other issues that affect them even more, including healthcare, environmental policy, the new nuclear arms race, the disregard of international law and international treaties, the roll backs on privacy rights and civil rights, and the fact that the new stacked federal and supreme courts will reverse a womens reproductive freedom and will side consistently with corporate intererests against individual interests. When people learn what's at stake, they don't vote republican. Over the last six months I've flipped many, many "Bush voters" with ongoing dialogue.

Of course we are going to fight, not unite. What else would you expect. Are you trying to say if Kerry had won, Republicans, including their congressmen and senators, would have just rolled over, shut up, and passed whatever Kerry asked for?

That's the difference between Democrats and Republicans in my book: Common Decency. You never heard anyone call Republicans who opposed Clinton's actions in Serbia "traitors, offering aid and comfort to our enemies" and you never heard us tell republicans Don't let the door hit you on the ass when you leave, if you don't like it." You said my calling them "bigots and liars" is the same thing, but that is not name calling when it is true. The republicans used the scare tactic wedge issue of gay marriage to drive voters from the churches to the polls for the president. Gay marriage ammendments were on the ballot in 11 states, and we had pastors in churches in my state anyway telling people to "Vote God."

I'd like to see democracy thrive, not some hybrid of corporate theocracy.

[Gadfly2317]

So what kind of government would you propose? Communism? Facisim?

If you want to experience communism in all its glory move to China or Cuba, those are truely great countries. NOT.

On a side note, America is not a democracy, we are a Constitutional Republic. True democracy would be mob rule. We just have democratically elected leaders, but both the leaders and the people are restrained by the framework of our constitution. That's what many of the more theocratically minded people I meet seem t