A Matter Worthy of Discussion

[AOE Enforcer]

As I have spent many, many hours playing Ninja Gaiden now, coming to grips with the camera system and learning to utilize all of my controls to their fullest extent-I like to see once in awhile what kind of review scores the game is getting on GameRankings. I've seen scores that range quite fairly in the 85-95% range, a little too high and a bit too low by my own opinion. But when I saw a ranking of 50%, I had to read that review. The review in question is from a "Christian" games site.

http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/launchreview.asp?reviewid=336371

My main problem with this review isn't the fact that the reviewer discussed the problems with the camera system or the games difficulty level. It's that the reviewer directly states that any religion other than Christianity is a "Paganistic" religion. A Pagan is also described as a "heathen" which is a uncivilized person. And for the fact alone that this game has demons and "scantily clad women" in it, the reviewer deemed the game to get an "F" rating.

Now, without getting into a heated debate about religion-how can someone who calls themselves a Christian basically slam every other religion and set of beliefs in the world? The reviewer is saying that anyone who does not believe in the lord Jesus Christ is a heathen. What gives him the right?

The Jewish people believe that Jesus was merely a prophet and not the true son of God. Does that make them a heathen? Does that makes their beliefs and convictions wrong? Or what about those who worship Buddha? Are they wrong? Are they heathens? Or what of Muslims and their belief in Allah?

In this day and age of such tension because people cannot accept that someone has a different belief system and deity than you do, how can someone who claims to be a "good Christian" say such things? I bring this discussion up because while I would fall under the clasification of "Christian" in the broadest sense, I feel it is wrong to outright slam other religions-especially on the basis of a videogame-a means of entertainment.

If God is all-knowing, all-powerful and made man in his own image, who is to say that those who see their own "God" as an Oriental person isn't seeing God as he intended himself to be seen to them? Every religion at it's core preaches peace, love and harmony with your fellow man and the world we live in.

So if religion is meant to teach love, why is it that so much hate, death and war has been wrought in "God's name?" :confused:

[Deathstroke]

I'd only get worked up if Gamerankings was actually counting the review in NG's overall average. They aren't, so all's good.

So if religion is meant to teach love, why is it that so much hate, death and war has been wrought in "God's name?"

Because "God's word" (whatever it may be) often conflicts with what we humans want and we aren't above twisting the words to get our own meanings from them.

Edit: Hey Kingdom Hearts got a 98 percent. For a game that goes through Aladdin territory, I'd question its appropriateness to a Christian.

All in all, I'm finding their other reviews to be fairly unbalanced.

[Bob-the-Fish]

Being in the Bible Belt of the deep south, I hear this kind of stuff all the time. And it goes both ways. Christians who claim everyone else is a heathen and they are all going straight to hell and the rest who claim all Christians are evil bigots who will ruin the world. And they go back and forth constantly.

The guy is right about the blood, demons and Rachel's costume (as well as some of the others). So if you feel content of that sort is not appropriate to your life style, then you should stay away from Ninja Gaiden. In all honesty, you should probably avoid video games all together since a large number of games do contain adult themes. But that's why I don't take any review at face value. They're all based on personal opinion. This guy is just basing his on what he thinks are "Christian values."

[Gadfly2317]

I'd only get worked up if Gamerankings was actually counting the review in NG's overall average. They aren't, so all's good.



Because "God's word" (whatever it may be) often conflicts with what we humans want and we aren't above twisting the words to get our own meanings from them.

Edit: Hey Kingdom Hearts got a 98 percent. For a game that goes through Aladdin territory, I'd question its appropriateness to a Christian.

All in all, I'm finding their other reviews to be fairly unbalanced.

Ned Flander's kids, Rod and Todd, should not be allowed to play ANY video games, as they ALL distract one from worshipping god. Even PIKMIN is a pro-evolution work of the devil.

I wish you hadn't started this thread. . . . I have a hard time biting my tongue when it's clear religious fundamentalism is the #1 mental illness infecting homo sapiens. Come on guys, Ishtar, Zeus, Allah, Mithras, Santa, God, Shiva, Jesus wears panties, Bob, Eris, Buddhah. . .1.) do you realize most everyone on the planet believes what they were born into; 2.) that what you were born into makes sense to you because it infected your linguistic map from birth, 3.) if you had been born somewhere else, a different cosmology would have infected your neural/linguistic grid, 4.) that no matter what you worship, your prayers are answered at the same random 50% rate, whether you pray to a tree or to Krishna?

That's why I love sys wars. People have System Dogmatism ("I worship PS2") but because no one has been born into any of these systems, they are more likely to engage with you in debate in a real way (unlike political or religious boards) and maybe actually grow. Sys Wars is essentially no different than a religious or politics board, except that it's actually possible to see people's dogmatisim erode, and to watch a few close minded gamers grow into more open minded ones.

And if you read Left Behind, and really think an invisibile man from a gold city in outerspace is going to swoop you up to a land where no one ever has to poop again, I've just gotta say, Gold streets have poor traction and are a slippery safety hazard. Any God that would make gold streets should be sued, and that's why you always hear there will be no lawyers in heaven.

Thank you. And if you haven't caught it yet, see Mel Gibson's homo-erotic SM bondage fantasy, and understand exactly the nature of his "love" for christ.

[Deathstroke]

I find religion to be the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on humanity however, I do realize that there is just an intrinsic nature in humans to want to believe in something greater. It's one way to find comfort especially when things aren't going your way.

[no.1gamer]

This indeed is "A Matter Worthy of Discussion". I haven't played Ninja Gaiden yet. But I had similar feelings about playing Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem. One of the settings is a Cathedral that can be played throughout history. One interesting time frame is during World War 2. The Cathedral was used as a hospital for the troops because the religious building was the only structure safe from the chaos of WW2.

Another time frame was from an even darker more corrupted setting. Any religious leader would find some of the images from this setting very controversial. I won't go into further detail as I don't want to give any ED spoilers.

I'm trying not to get too far off the subject which is religion in video games. When all said and done I would say that downgrading the review score of an "M" rated game for heavenly or demonic reasons is not necessary. But alternatively I would NEVER recommend Eternal Darkness to an individual that uses a Christian website as a source of information.

[Twelve]

AOE, it's a Christian site, therefore they have the right to judge a matter according to their perspective.

12

[Gadfly2317]

This indeed is "A Matter Worthy of Discussion". I haven't played Ninja Gaiden yet. But I had similar feelings about playing Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem. One of the settings is a Cathedral that can be played throughout history. One interesting time frame is during World War 2. The Cathedral was used as a hospital for the troops because the religious building was the only structure safe from the chaos of WW2.

Another time frame was from an even darker more corrupted setting. Any religious leader would find some of the images from this setting very controversial. I won't go into further detail as I don't want to give any ED spoilers.

I'm trying not to get too far off the subject which is religion in video games. When all said and done I would say that downgrading the review score of an "M" rated game for heavenly or demonic reasons is not necessary. But alternatively I would NEVER recommend Eternal Darkness to an individual that uses a Christian website as a source of information.

I don't know. . . the cosmology presented in Eternal Darkness might be a good fit for many christians. I listen to this a.m. talk show on the radio sometimes that is very fundamentalist christian, and very conspiracy theory oriented. The idea that demonic forces--and a conspiracy that serves theses forces--has engineered and manipulated history is pretty much bread and butter for the paranoid christian fringe (i.e., the United Nations is run by Illuminati Satanists, and they love pointing out that both George Bush and John Kerry were members of Skull and Bones). You'd think these people would like a game where they get to defeat the ambitions of these demonic forces. But Ninja Gaiden though, that's just a bunch of weird japanese pagan crap :)

Eternal Darkness, what a great game. You know, wasn't there a heavily religious themed game supposed to be coming out called Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse? What happened to that?

(I wanted to add a P.C. disclaimer regarding my previous superition-mocking post: I believe everyone has a right to believe whatever they want. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to excercise my right to call it silly and/or dangerous and delusional if it appears that way to me.)

[MyDogTheProphet]

Any game that can p*** off Christians has to be doing something right....

[Bob-the-Fish]

Not many fans of the Christian faith here me thinks ;)


Any game that can p*** off Christians has to be doing something right....

It doesn't take much to do that, so it isn't much of an acomplishment. They even get peeved with the acomplishments of their own order. The game, on the other hand, is a great acomplishment. It is graphical marvel. It does play pretty well too, once you get past the camera issues and constant dying.

["The Game"Evolution]

Not many fans of the Christian faith here me thinks ;)




It doesn't take much to do that, so it isn't much of an acomplishment. They even get peeved with the acomplishments of their own order. The game, on the other hand, is a great acomplishment. It is graphical marvel. It does play pretty well too, once you get past the camera issues and constant dying.

The world we live in truly is a screwed up place.They rather talk about what happened with Janet Jackson's misfortune during halftime but totally ignore the fact that there were streakers running around the football field during the Super Bowl totally naked.

They want to jump on"The Passion Of The Christ"because its so graphic.Well let me ask those people this then:How can you tone down a crucifixion? Oh thats right you cant! A crucifixion is supposed to be graphic!!!

Every story thats ever been told about Jesus on T.V. has been so watered down it was pathetic.This movie from Mel Gibson basically told it from a perspective that opened alot of people eyes wide open.And I totally respect him for that.

Religion indeed is a crazy thing these days.Everybody indeed is entitled to belief what they want to believe.However there are times when I wonder who are some of those loudmouth religous people out there to judge anyone? Those are some of the same people that said time and time again O.J. did it,but yet nobody wants to talk about the Ramseys getting away with murder when it came to Jon Benet.Amazing how blind the world can be huh?

When Madonna kissed Britney Spears on a music awards show watched by millions including children it was labled as being"hot." But when Janet Jackson's breast was accidently exposed during the Super Bowl its considered a hanious act that changed the way networks go about live telecasts.Breasts being flashed are out and Lesbian behavior is in huh? Oh thats right we do have a cable show now that showcases Lesbians on a Soap opera.(The L Word) What a load of crap!

This world is so ass-backwards on issues these days.They want to talk about games like Ninja Gaiden being satanic like but yet Harry Potter is king to millions and millions of children around the world.

Not to mention Harry Potter is a multi-million dollar franchise thats sold tons of books and spawned 3 live action movies as well.Whats wrong with that? Hmm...Lets see Isnt Harry Potter actually a warlock is he not? Yep.(A male witch) Do Christians support that?But I guess to most thats a different story isnt it? Yep.Imagine that.

Like I said who are some of those people to judge anyone?

[joquito]

Almost all religions believe that they are the only true path. Most religions believe that one must conform to their belief system to attain enlightenment. But so does anyone from any particular political system either. This discussion could easily be about politics just as much as religion. Yet no one says that following one particular political party is for the feeble minded or for those who feel the need to be comforted by a higher collective.

As a christian, we are taught to respect those who aren' t christians. I don't have to agree with their beliefs. I don't have to think that they live a proper lifestyle or whatever. I don't have to agree with someone to love them or nevertheless tolorate them.

Anyhow, A religious website is not set in place to judge games based soley on artistic merits. They set their own guidelines as to what makes a good game. Look at Gaming Age's review. They clearly have a different criteria for rating games to give NG such a low score in comparison to every other website.

[Darwin]

Any game that can p*** off Christians has to be doing something right....

Doesn't piss me off.

[Darwin]

Very interesting thread. As a beleiver in Christ, I always find topics like this intersting. And perhaps the younger Darwin would have gotten offended by Gadfly's comments ... but not anymore.

I remember a few discussions in church when I was growing up regarding subjects such as this. I found it interesting that many Christians would put so much importance on certain symbols or would associate certain symbols as being evil. (e.g. "Rush is evil because their 2112 album has a pentagram on it." Gimme a break) Symbolism is present in many religions. In fact, I dare say that symbolisms sometimes overshadows the more importance aspects of a particular religion's creedo.

I'd just like to point out something. If you read the gospels, I don't think you gonna find Jesus teaching a lot about symbols. Jesus's main teachings were on salvation, and how to treat other people.

That is why I have no problem displaying a Darwin Fish as my avatar. Because symbols mean nothing. In fact, one of these days I'm gonna show up to church with a Darwin Fish on my car and just see how people react.

[Thrower, WCG-Fanboy Flame]

A heathen is just a person who doesn't believe christ is the savior. That's it. And like Darwin said christianity is not about judgement it's about salvation. Jesus message was one of salvation not judgement. The bible says not to judge unless you are first to be judge. Yes christianity states that jesus is the only way to salvation but in the end God will judge not man.

Anyway if you have been to this sight before it's obvious they review games from a religious stand point which is valid for some people. So I don't have a problem with it.

[Bob-the-Fish]

The world we live in truly is a screwed up place.They rather talk about what happened with Janet Jackson's misfortune during halftime but totally ignore the fact that there were streakers running around the football field during the Super Bowl totally naked.

That was pretty funny. You had to be paying pretty close attention to the game to catch the streaker at all. He wasn't even really mentioned by the broadcasters. But the outcry against Jackson was because it was on national TV. The streaker was never shown.

They want to jump on"The Passion Of The Christ"because its so graphic.Well let me ask those people this then:How can you tone down a crucifixion? Oh thats right you cant! A crucifixion is supposed to be graphic!!!

Every story thats ever been told about Jesus on T.V. has been so watered down it was pathetic.This movie from Mel Gibson basically told it from a perspective that opened alot of people eyes wide open.And I totally respect him for that.

I saw Passions, on the opening weekend in fact. I didn't find it as shocking as I was expecting from all the hype (like a lot of the games we get, wink, wink). I certainly don't see taking a 10 year old child. There actually was a crying baby at the showing I attended and a couple other kids, but for a regular adult, it wasn't anything I wouldn't see in other violent movies. I applaud movie makers who have the guts (and cash) to push the envelope and actually bring us something we don't see every day. I was not dramically moved by Mel's movie though, and the more I discuss it, the worse I think it is. But that topic is for some other board.


When Madonna kissed Britney Spears on a music awards show watched by millions including children it was labled as being"hot." But when Janet Jackson's breast was accidently exposed during the Super Bowl its considered a hanious act that changed the way networks go about live telecasts.Breasts being flashed are out and Lesbian behavior is in huh? Oh thats right we do have a cable show now that showcases Lesbians on a Soap opera.(The L Word) What a load of crap!

Back onto the Jackson thing, the reason the public outcry about that kiss was not as high as it was about the Super Bowl "incident" was because it was on cable, on a network known for semi-graphic content. To my knowledge, The FCC actually has no power over what is shown on cable. They are only restricted by their own sense of decency, which for MTV is whatever they can show that will keep people watching and not boycotting them. So if children are watching MTV and see two women kiss, that's their parents fault. Personally, I don't see how watching fat grown men run into each other for hours is any more kid friendly, but I don't make the rules.


This world is so ass-backwards on issues these days.They want to talk about games like Ninja Gaiden being satanic like but yet Harry Potter is king to millions and millions of children around the world.
Not to mention Harry Potter is a multi-million dollar franchise thats sold tons of books and spawned 3 live action movies as well.Whats wrong with that? Hmm...Lets see Isnt Harry Potter actually a warlock is he not? Yep.(A male witch) Do Christians support that?But I guess to most thats a different story isnt it? Yep.Imagine that.

Ahhhh, Harry Potter. I don't know how many people actually realize that the main reason that series is so popular was because of certain religious group's attempts to get it banned from schools and to prevent a teacher from reading the books to her students. There were already two books out before people really got into them and they became the moster we know today. Because of all the hullabalu those fanatics created, everyone started reading the books to see what all the fuss was about. The fact that they are actually decent books then catapulted them into mainstream. It's the same with Passions. Do you really think that it would have made this much money without all the controversy? Or to apply it to video games, Grand Theft Auto 3?

The bible says not to judge unless you are first to be judge. Yes christianity states that jesus is the only way to salvation but in the end God will judge not man.

Very true. It is sad that many influential Christians through the ages have turned it into something else though. Just like Islamic terrorists use their religion as a basis for their hatered. Most fanatics of any type are dangerous though.

[T.Tashi]

This old Jamaican guy (at least, I think he was Jamaican) told me this story. He said thousands of years ago aliens came from another planet, and gave human beings some tools and information to develop themselves spiritually. Then the aliens left, deciding to check in on the humans a millennium later. When they returned, sadly, the aliens discovered that humans had took the information, divided themselves into religions and were all fighting among themselves. The aliens shook their heads and went home.

[AOE Enforcer]

A heathen is just a person who doesn't believe christ is the savior. That's it. And like Darwin said christianity is not about judgement it's about salvation. Jesus message was one of salvation not judgement. The bible says not to judge unless you are first to be judge. Yes christianity states that jesus is the only way to salvation but in the end God will judge not man.

Anyway if you have been to this sight before it's obvious they review games from a religious stand point which is valid for some people. So I don't have a problem with it.

Heathen: 1. An unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge God of the Bible. 2. An uncivilized or irreligious person.

How did I mistake that? It says right there, plain as day uncivilized. That definition is from The New Merriam-Webster Dictionary. ;)

My point is this: These kind of people who claim to be "good christians" are the same folks trying to get games like Grand Theft Auto banned. If you don't like it, don't play it. It's as simple as that. Don't try to inflict your moral values & system on me. To me, it's no different than somone coming to your house and bugging the crap out of you to read Watchtower magazine.

Just respect the fact that others believe differently than you and live your own life. Because someone doesn't believe in Jesus or the Bible doesn't make them an uncivilized heathen or pagan. Maybe these "good christians" should practice what they preach.

....Just a little food for thought is all.

[Gadfly2317]

Heathen: 1. An unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge God of the Bible. 2. An uncivilized or irreligious person.

How did I mistake that? It says right there, plain as day uncivilized. That definition is from The New Merriam-Webster Dictionary. ;)

My point is this: These kind of people who claim to be "good christians" are the same folks trying to get games like Grand Theft Auto banned. If you don't like it, don't play it. It's as simple as that. Don't try to inflict your moral values & system on me. To me, it's no different than somone coming to your house and bugging the crap out of you to read Watchtower magazine.

Just respect the fact that others believe differently than you and live your own life. Because someone doesn't believe in Jesus or the Bible doesn't make them an uncivilized heathen or pagan. Maybe these "good christians" should practice what they preach.

....Just a little food for thought is all.

I'm not sure, but I think it was HL Mencken who said "there will always be good people who do good things, and evil people who do evil things, but for a good person to do evil takes religion."

I like the feel good notion of everybody believing their own thing, and I would even concede that there are many screw-ups in the world who became better off joining a flock and adopting fear based beliefs to keep their behavior in line.

But history demonstrates pretty clearly that religion (highly dogmatic and fundamentalist strains anyway) behave in irrational and insane ways that cause people to get killed, because the beliefs themselves are irrational and insane--they do not jibe with the evidence plainly presented to our eyes, and you have to be maintaining some huge cognitive dissonance to maintain a delusional faith in something that is constantly being contradicted by other faculties you may posses, like logic and reason.

And what bugs me most, is the touchy feely christians who want to say the bible is all about love and tolerance and not judging others. I've read the bible cover to cover, and I can assure you, that is NOT what it is about. Modern liberal feel-good bubble-gum christians, they are not as dangerous as the fundamentalists who take the whole book literally, but then why even bother still calling yourself a christian if you are essentially making up your own religion that makes you feel good by picking and choosing the parts of the bible you like and that are nice?

Mark Twain is probably the greatest American humorist to have laid pen to paper. If you are interested in religion, satire, and brilliant writing, you HAVE to read Mark Twain's "Letters from Earth." I think everyone should read this. . . (but I expect most christians would avoid it, because they are too timid in their faith to look at things that might challenge it.)

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/twainlfe.htm

[Tappy_Tibbons]

Wow Enforcer, I never expected such an intelligent topic from you. However, I think you are pointing the aggression the wrong way. First off, the site that reviewed the game is designed by Christians for Christians and they have the right to say whatever they want, which is why you should be mad at gamerankings.com instead. I will say that the reviewer must hate every game out of Japan though. I'm a Christian myself, I've not played the game, but I will say that it's good that sites like this exist because many Christian parents may have otherwise bought the game but I doubt it...

IMO, gamerankings.com isn't legit because ma and pa sites such as this have just as much weight on the scoring as sites such as IGN or mags such as EGM. Maybe you should be wrinting to gamerankings.com instead of here if you really feel so strongly about the issue.

[Tappy_Tibbons]

I find religion to be the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on humanity however, I do realize that there is just an intrinsic nature in humans to want to believe in something greater. It's one way to find comfort especially when things aren't going your way.

And I think you're a hoax. Seriously, if the perfect design of the human body among thousands of other animals isn't enough for you, how do you explain such perfect waves among nature? Do you believe in evolution? I think creation is the key, I don't believe anything except a higher being created you, me, and all other life on this planet. Don't hate God, hate Satan, for he is who makes life suck. But ya, anyway, as much as you think religion is a hoax, I think people who do not believe in religion are hoaxes themselves...more appropriately, hard-headed morons. Ya can't see air can you?

Humans are sheepish by nature...deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow. Life isn't supposed to be a cakewalk, it is full of good days and bad days, mountains and valleys. Haven't you realized how short life really is?

[Deathstroke]

The human body is nowhere near the perfect design. Physically, we're quite imperfect. It is rather our brain that has ensured our survival and ascendance. A detail of our biology that God probably regrets giving us now.

[Bob-the-Fish]

I'll apologize to the mods up front since I can see this thread is about to devolve into tirades of various beliefs very quickly. There is still a good topic (religion in video games) in here, but I doubt that's what we're going to be reading....


And I think you're a hoax. Seriously, if the perfect design of the human body among thousands of other animals isn't enough for you, how do you explain such perfect waves among nature? Do you believe in evolution? I think creation is the key, I don't believe anything except a higher being created you, me, and all other life on this planet. Don't hate God, hate Satan, for he is who makes life suck. But ya, anyway, as much as you think religion is a hoax, I think people who do not believe in religion are hoaxes themselves...more appropriately, hard-headed morons. Ya can't see air can you?

Humans are sheepish by nature...deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow. Life isn't supposed to be a cakewalk, it is full of good days and bad days, mountains and valleys. Haven't you realized how short life really is?

I'm not a fan of any higher power that tells its children not to taste the fruit of knowledge lest they be cast out of paradise. And I don't "believe" in much really. There's a few great lines on that subject issued by Rufus in the Kevin Smith Movie Dogma. I like use that function of my body that "God" doesn't seem like s/he/it wanted me too to come up with the solutions to my problems and I am more then willing to accept the consequences of those actions instead of looking for a shoulder to blame. I have realized how short life really is so I'm not going to spend it limiting myself to the demands of some holy ghost that has preachers on TV 24-7 taking old lady's money.

I have no problems with others doing their thing and believing whatever they want to. I really don't like it when it interfears with intelligent disscusions though.

(I have a very long respose to your comments about evolution, creationism, Satan, hoaxes, "hard-headed morons" but I will refrain from posting it here since I know it will not have any effect on you anyway. If you want to have that "discussion" pm me.)

[Nissian X]

Who cares what religion you are??
It's basically the same thing, only people view it in different perspectives. The review that guy wrote SHOULD have been deleted, hell, I'm Catholic, and I'm pretty damn violent, so religion should have nothing AND I MEAN JACK S*** to do with video games.

[Deathstroke]

Oh, btw Tappy, air's existance has been proven through science so technically, you can tell that it exists.

Anyways, I didn't mean to come off like I was bashing religion and I apologize.

[Gamer88]

Tappy_Tibbons
And I think you're a hoax. Seriously, if the perfect design of the human body among thousands of other animals isn't enough for you, how do you explain such perfect waves among nature? Do you believe in evolution? I think creation is the key, I don't believe anything except a higher being created you, me, and all other life on this planet. Don't hate God, hate Satan, for he is who makes life suck. But ya, anyway, as much as you think religion is a hoax, I think people who do not believe in religion are hoaxes themselves...more appropriately, hard-headed morons. Ya can't see air can you?

To hate God you would have to belief in him otherwise there is nothing to hate. But you ask him to hate satan but if he doesn't believe in religion do you think he believes in satan? If he did wouldn't he also have to belief in God? Is there a Satan without a God or a God without a Satan? If your Christian there isn't at least not in this time. Satan may make life suck but he is also the reason some of us get threw life, Without darkness there cannot be light. If I never would have went to one side I would have never been able to see the greatness of the other. People who don't believe in religion are not hoax's. Its the people who insult them that are the hoax's. We aren't supposed to insult other religions now are we? We are supposed to repect them. Even though he may be athiest or agnostic we should still view him as another religion because what is religion but belief? What is belief but faith?

Tappy_Tibbons
Humans are sheepish by nature...deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow. Life isn't supposed to be a cakewalk, it is full of good days and bad days, mountains and valleys. Haven't you realized how short life really is?

Humans are getting to whiny in my opinion. We should not even be arguing over matters like this. Life is to short for that isn't it? Isn't life to short to waste in another world? Such as Video Games? The fact life isn't a cakewalk is what allows us to choose, If the world was all perfect then we would have no free will, We wouldn't know evil.....or would we......Can we even have free will if Satan did not exist?

[PapaSmurf]

The world we live in truly is a screwed up place.They rather talk about what happened with Janet Jackson's misfortune during halftime but totally ignore the fact that there were streakers running around the football field during the Super Bowl totally naked.

They want to jump on"The Passion Of The Christ"because its so graphic.Well let me ask those people this then:How can you tone down a crucifixion? Oh thats right you cant! A crucifixion is supposed to be graphic!!!

Every story thats ever been told about Jesus on T.V. has been so watered down it was pathetic.This movie from Mel Gibson basically told it from a perspective that opened alot of people eyes wide open.And I totally respect him for that.

Religion indeed is a crazy thing these days.Everybody indeed is entitled to belief what they want to believe.However there are times when I wonder who are some of those loudmouth religous people out there to judge anyone? Those are some of the same people that said time and time again O.J. did it,but yet nobody wants to talk about the Ramseys getting away with murder when it came to Jon Benet.Amazing how blind the world can be huh?

When Madonna kissed Britney Spears on a music awards show watched by millions including children it was labled as being"hot." But when Janet Jackson's breast was accidently exposed during the Super Bowl its considered a hanious act that changed the way networks go about live telecasts.Breasts being flashed are out and Lesbian behavior is in huh? Oh thats right we do have a cable show now that showcases Lesbians on a Soap opera.(The L Word) What a load of crap!

This world is so ass-backwards on issues these days.They want to talk about games like Ninja Gaiden being satanic like but yet Harry Potter is king to millions and millions of children around the world.

Not to mention Harry Potter is a multi-million dollar franchise thats sold tons of books and spawned 3 live action movies as well.Whats wrong with that? Hmm...Lets see Isnt Harry Potter actually a warlock is he not? Yep.(A male witch) Do Christians support that?But I guess to most thats a different story isnt it? Yep.Imagine that.

Like I said who are some of those people to judge anyone?
Well quite contrary to that. My Uncle is a crazy christian. He won't let his kids watch Pokemon or Harry Potter because of monsters and demos. Millions of kids may be watching this stuff, but trust me the the true fundelmentalists aren't being hypocritical. They are critizing EVERYTHING. Its just a matter of how much the public critizes it. Even if the public isn't viewing the issues as controversial, the fundamentalists are.

[Twelve]

Very interesting thread. As a beleiver in Christ, I always find topics like this intersting. And perhaps the younger Darwin would have gotten offended by Gadfly's comments ... but not anymore.

I remember a few discussions in church when I was growing up regarding subjects such as this. I found it interesting that many Christians would put so much importance on certain symbols or would associate certain symbols as being evil. (e.g. "Rush is evil because their 2112 album has a pentagram on it." Gimme a break) Symbolism is present in many religions. In fact, I dare say that symbolisms sometimes overshadows the more importance aspects of a particular religion's creedo.

I'd just like to point out something. If you read the gospels, I don't think you gonna find Jesus teaching a lot about symbols. Jesus's main teachings were on salvation, and how to treat other people.

That is why I have no problem displaying a Darwin Fish as my avatar. Because symbols mean nothing. In fact, one of these days I'm gonna show up to church with a Darwin Fish on my car and just see how people react.

Darwin...I had you all wrong. You're extremely cool and extremely intelligent. Wow.


12

[Tappy_Tibbons]

Although air is scientifically proven to exist, you still can't see it. The only way God will exist in your life is by your own choice and faith alone.

[Gadfly2317]

Very interesting thread. As a beleiver in Christ, I always find topics like this intersting. And perhaps the younger Darwin would have gotten offended by Gadfly's comments ... but not anymore.

I remember a few discussions in church when I was growing up regarding subjects such as this. I found it interesting that many Christians would put so much importance on certain symbols or would associate certain symbols as being evil. (e.g. "Rush is evil because their 2112 album has a pentagram on it." Gimme a break) Symbolism is present in many religions. In fact, I dare say that symbolisms sometimes overshadows the more importance aspects of a particular religion's creedo.

I'd just like to point out something. If you read the gospels, I don't think you gonna find Jesus teaching a lot about symbols. Jesus's main teachings were on salvation, and how to treat other people.

That is why I have no problem displaying a Darwin Fish as my avatar. Because symbols mean nothing. In fact, one of these days I'm gonna show up to church with a Darwin Fish on my car and just see how people react.

I'm glad my previous comments did not offend you.

I kinda know what you were getting at about about "symbols mean nothing" and I agree with what I think you were saying. But clearly, symbols are incredibly powerful and do contain meaning, why else would you comment on seeing how people react if you show up to church with a Darwin fish? (btw, a lot of christians are cool with Darwin, because they realize that the evidence available to our senses shows that evolution occurred, and that you can believe God chose to use evolution as his tool for creating the earth. It is possible to believe in both God and evolution, and to see the creation story as "symbolic" or metaphorical.)

But yeah, the letters of the alphabets are symbols. We are communciating something with them. And symbols are often invested with much more meaning than words, like your country's flag can inspire feelings of pride, nationalisim, or patriotism. Or how about the power of using the sybolism of 9-11 imagery in political ads--that stuff clearly holds power over peoples minds and emotions. If you think symbols mean nothing, try putting up a swastika as your avatar and see what happens. Lots of powerful meaning associated with that symbol.

And to keep this somewhat related to system's wars, look at the xbox, gc, and ps2 logo's, and how the ad campaigns have tried to tie certain feelings to each of those "symbols" (each even has its own little sound effect designed to work like pavlov's bell.)

Was what you were getting at that we should seek to reduce the hypnotic power symbols hold over us when you said "symbols mean nothing?" Because I couldn't agree more.

[Gadfly2317]

I'll apologize to the mods up front since I can see this thread is about to devolve into tirades of various beliefs very quickly. There is still a good topic (religion in video games) in here, but I doubt that's what we're going to be reading....




I'm not a fan of any higher power that tells its children not to taste the fruit of knowledge lest they be cast out of paradise. And I don't "believe" in much really. There's a few great lines on that subject issued by Rufus in the Kevin Smith Movie Dogma. I like use that function of my body that "God" doesn't seem like s/he/it wanted me too to come up with the solutions to my problems and I am more then willing to accept the consequences of those actions instead of looking for a shoulder to blame. I have realized how short life really is so I'm not going to spend it limiting myself to the demands of some holy ghost that has preachers on TV 24-7 taking old lady's money.

I have no problems with others doing their thing and believing whatever they want to. I really don't like it when it interfears with intelligent disscusions though.

(I have a very long respose to your comments about evolution, creationism, Satan, hoaxes, "hard-headed morons" but I will refrain from posting it here since I know it will not have any effect on you anyway. If you want to have that "discussion" pm me.)

With views like that, how have you managed to live in Georgia without getting lynched?

I mean, they want to freaking ban the teaching of science in school there! Yeah, science is a bunch of malarky. But I guess I can't blame people who say they haven't evolved. I mean, clearly, they haven't.

[Gadfly2317]

And I think you're a hoax. Seriously, if the perfect design of the human body among thousands of other animals isn't enough for you, how do you explain such perfect waves among nature? Do you believe in evolution? I think creation is the key, I don't believe anything except a higher being created you, me, and all other life on this planet. Don't hate God, hate Satan, for he is who makes life suck. But ya, anyway, as much as you think religion is a hoax, I think people who do not believe in religion are hoaxes themselves...more appropriately, hard-headed morons. Ya can't see air can you?

Humans are sheepish by nature...deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow. Life isn't supposed to be a cakewalk, it is full of good days and bad days, mountains and valleys. Haven't you realized how short life really is?

Sight isn't the only one of our senses. We can feel air, and hear air as it moves past things, and you can see it carrying things, like the plastic bag in American Beauty. We can clearly perceive air, and in the absence of it suffocate quickly. But I don't worship air, even though there is NO doubt it exists.

When you partake in religious ceremonies, you will likely experience powerful emotional experiences. Baptism is a very powerful, emotional group bonding experience. Mass is a wonderful ceremony. Yoga can create intense feelings of "oneness with the universe". Buddhist meditation is the same way. People have these "spiritual" experiences and associate it with the religious dogma that is taught to them as kids, and so thus assume there is objective truth to that dogma (so if you were born christian, then those powerful "spiritual experiences" you get from the rituals seem like "proof" that your beliefs about god are true.)

But think about it. "Spiritual" or mystical experiences are competely internal and subjective, and can be elicited through many different practices, including altering the dopamine and serotin levels in your brain, or listening to Beethoven's "Ode to Joy" and having an intense moment of really "getting it". So why even bother to try to make up "fairy tale" stories to explain these experiences, and just admit, we don't know what happens after we die, and we cannot KNOW for sure what god is or isn't. There are just too many possible explanations for our subjective spiritual experiences. It is even possible to realize that we may have evolved these abilities as a survival mechanism and to create a sense of connection to something greater than ourselves, i.e., nature, humanity, the species, and the survival of it. Religious doctrine really is irrelevant, it's all about how we live and how well we treat our fellow humans (i.e figuring solutions to disagreements without exploding people into little bitty chuncks of flesh with laser guided missiles.)

And that's why I'm so anti-religion. . because dogma junkies end up forgetting how to have spiritual experiences, and this planet needs more spiritually awake people.

[Deathstroke]

Although air is scientifically proven to exist, you still can't see it. The only way God will exist in your life is by your own choice and faith alone.

How about you try to scientifically prove the existance of God beyond merely an ideal and then get back to me.

[joquito]

How about you try to scientifically prove the existance of God beyond merely an ideal and then get back to me.


Thomas Aquinas's first cause argument has yet to be adequately disputed, The arguement is what caused our existance. What ever answer you pick, is asked by another question of what caused that. and so on. The first cause must be God. Just my 2 cents.

[Bob-the-Fish]

With views like that, how have you managed to live in Georgia without getting lynched?

I mean, they want to freaking ban the teaching of science in school there! Yeah, science is a bunch of malarky. But I guess I can't blame people who say they haven't evolved. I mean, clearly, they haven't.

Well they didn't actually try to ban science outright. The people running the state aren't that crazy. A month ago the school superintendent did try to get the word "evolution" changed to "biological changes over time" in the text books, but I salute the people of Georgia because that did get shot down rather quickly. The state is a little more interested in the flag at the moment anyway. If you want to hear about symbols and the powers they have, just pay a little attention to that "debate."

I don't have a problem with God existing. I'm not an atheist because I think that the religious belief that there isn't a God leads to just as many problems as the belief in s/he/it's existance. My objection is to the people who use the tenents of their religion to impose their will upon others. I have a second cousin who has been in the Middle East for about eight months now trying to convert the Muslims and her family is constantly worried she'll be coming home in a body bag. Religion and all the symbols that go with it are very powerful forces that can cause people to do very irrational things. The cross is one of the most recognizable symbols known to man (along with the Swastika and the Golden Arches). Those symbols call up very powerful emotions and when people act on those emotions things can get out of hand pretty fast.

I have no problems with people enhancing the spiritial portion of thier lives but I do not think that religion, that is organized reilgion, is a positive way to do that. Histroy shows that religion on a grand scale leads to conflict not forgiveness.

Edit: Just thought I'd add this question to the more religious members of the boards:
Why is it so neccessary to give God credit for all great and good things in the world and blame him for all the bad, thereby absolving yourselves from guilt? I'd rather see people take credit for the successes of our race and get blamed for it's problems, not some existential force.

[folken001]

I completely agree with Bob The Fish here. Why is it always God's miracles when good things happen and give all the credits to devil when bad things happen. No one ever blame God for failing to protect us or the believers would just give some generic statement such as "God has its plan and things are happening for a reason". I think that is just bogus. A couple stories I obtain from the religious movies or bible, God is not kind or whatever you guys say he is. Like the Egpytian king, mosses' brother, disobeyed God, and the punishment he received was to have all the "innocent" children in his kingdom died over night. Or the one where God had a bet with Satan on how faithful this one guy was to God. God killed him family, properties and make him ill and all other BS along the way as the result of the bet. I mean, how can people read stories like these and still think God is the savior? I am truly confused on that.

Also, I have talked to my friends who are God believers about the bible. This is another thing I do not understand. They all told me bible was not God's words. It was the interpretation of God words as far as mankind could understand. So, it is very possible bible is wrong. If so, what is the point to believe something that might be incorrect?

I think, religions is the biggest hoax in human history.

[Thrower, WCG-Fanboy Flame]

Heathen: 1. An unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge God of the Bible. 2. An uncivilized or irreligious person.

How did I mistake that? It says right there, plain as day uncivilized. That definition is from The New Merriam-Webster Dictionary. ;)

My point is this: These kind of people who claim to be "good christians" are the same folks trying to get games like Grand Theft Auto banned. If you don't like it, don't play it. It's as simple as that. Don't try to inflict your moral values & system on me. To me, it's no different than somone coming to your house and bugging the crap out of you to read Watchtower magazine.

Just respect the fact that others believe differently than you and live your own life. Because someone doesn't believe in Jesus or the Bible doesn't make them an uncivilized heathen or pagan. Maybe these "good christians" should practice what they preach.

....Just a little food for thought is all.

The most accepted definition of heathen to a christian is the first definition. The second one is basically what the word has become because of the negative connatations associated it with. The same way Nazi is really just a political party but when you think of someone being a Nazi you think of Jew hating racist. Same with the term Pagan. They were the people who worshipped the changing of the seasons and idols that was a religion so technically Pagan isn't a negative term it's just negative if you are a christian but if those are you belief so be it.

As far as saying "good christians" are the ones trying to get games banned that's as bad as saying all gamers are fat lazy violence obssessed slobs. You can't generalize any group of people. You yourself say respect what others believes yet you make a post sterotyping a group of people for reviewing a game according to there beliefs?

[Thrower, WCG-Fanboy Flame]

But the thing is if you believe in god. Death isn't a bad thing. And like someone else said earlier in this post there isn't dark without the light.

And I feel sad for people whose beliefs are all grounded in scientific facts. For one Evolution is not a fact it's "accepeted theory" about 60 yrs ago it was accepted theory that the atom was the smallest particle of existence them the atom was split open and whoah Nuclear energy. Science is ever evloving so it never should be used as an absolute grounds for belief.

And just using the principles of science we know that energy can not be destroyed only transfered well what happens to our inner energy when we die are we are reincarnet in 30 days like thee budist believe? Do we go to Valhalla if we are brave warriors like in norse legend do we just fertilize the grass or does our soul travel onward to heaven?

To get back on topic Xbox rox and Painkiller will set everything straight!

[Bob-the-Fish]

I think, religions is the biggest hoax in human history.

For something to be a hoax it must be created with the intent to decieve correct? Religion is not a hoax per say then because it was created as a way to answer man's, and women's, many questions about life. The trouble I see with it is that it claims that the solutions they have come up with to all the puzzlements of existance are absolute and unquestionable and today organized religion for the masses has been used to decieve. Humans did not get where we are today by being unquestionable, so basing ours views on ablsolute truths seems a bit backward.

Not trying to bring up the old science vs. religion thing here, but the way I look at it, relgion is the truth and science is the search for truth. I'm am more apt to listen to reasoning from the second camp because it opens up many more posibilities, an because it is a search, it is easier to modify when each new piece of the puzzle is discovered. I just not a fan of people who claim "they have all the answers." I won't deny that the scientific community today is almost as resistant to changes as the clergy, but at least the founding priniples of that train of thought are based on fomulating a theory and then trying your very hardest to prove yourself wrong instead of finding a theory and trying your hardest to make it impossible to argue against.

[trebor]

This is an EXCELLENT topic, Enforcer, and frankly, I wish more discussions on this board were as deep and thought provoking.

Here is my $0.02....

The inherent problem with organized religion - ALL organized religions - is that ALL religions we know of and practice have been intrepreted by human beings, and are therefore inherently flawed.

For instance, the values many associate with certain religions, are all HUMAN values. If there is a God, it is well beyond a human being's level of comprehension - it would be the same as trying to "get" the concept of infinity. Our senses wouldn't be able to even register it, let alone "understand" it.

So, basically, it ('"it" as in "God") is well beyond all humanly concerns. In fact, I would doubt that an omnipotent being could really give a rat's ass about what humans do to pass the time - being as that we would be so beneath them that we would be less important to them then your common insect is to us. It's only man's ego that suggests that humans are a concern of "God". Mainly because humans can't deal with how utterly insignificant we are to the grand scheme of things, and therefore, we raise our self-importance by thinking a Celestial Grandpa cares about what we had for breakfast.

In terms of Ninja Gaiden - I find the inclusion of sex into the game to be offensive to me. Not because of any religious reason, but more because of plain good taste. Thonged demon-wenches are not necessary to a game to be "cool", yet I can just see executives wanting more T&A in the game simply because "sex sells". Does having scantily clad females in the game add to the whole experience? Or is it a blatant attempt to appeal to horny teenage boys, and other teenieboppers who think "M" rated games are "cool". THAT is what I find offensive.

[Darwin]

But clearly, symbols are incredibly powerful and do contain meaning, why else would you comment on seeing how people react if you show up to church with a Darwin fish? ....
Was what you were getting at that we should seek to reduce the hypnotic power symbols hold over us when you said "symbols mean nothing?" Because I couldn't agree more.

I guess the better way to state it is that symbols mean nothing to "me". They do indeed having meaning for others. Perhaps a symbol is only as powerful as the power you give it.

The basic problem with symbols is that they usually don't have an agreed-upon meaning. Certain people use them for one reason where someone else may use it or perceive it for another reason. Then you get into the whole rhelm of guilty-by-association which can occur because people are assuming certain ideas about a particular symbol. For example, have you seen the HBO documentary about the 3 teens accused of murdering 2 little boys in a "satanic ritual". Anyway, the case is not as clear-cut as the prosecution made it out to be, and there is now some significant doubt as to whether or not these teens comitted the murder. In fact, the next likely suspect is the father of the boys, a Bible believing Christian. Anywho ... during the trial, much of the "evidence" used against the teens was based in symbolism, particualarly the whiken (sp?) religion. Trying to paint a picture of these teens as satanic becuase of associations with certain symbols and objects found in their rooms.

As a gift to you, I'll leave you with the lyrics to one of my favorite songs. Not necessarily on the topic of symbols, but I think you'll enjoy this. The song is called, "I want to be a clone":

"<verse> I heard so much other stuff, like walking down the isle was tough, but now I know it's not enough ... I want to be a clone.
I asked the Lord into my heart, they said it was the way to start, but now you've got to play the part ... I want to be a clone.
<chorus> Be a clone and kiss conviction goodnight. Clonely-ness is next to Godly-ness, right? I'm greatful that they showed the way, cause I could never know the way to serve Him on my own ... I want to be a clone.
<verse> They told me that I'd fall away, unless I followed what they say, who needs the Bible anyway? ... I want to be a clone.
Their language it was new to me, but Christian lingual got thru to me, now I can speak it fluently ... I want to be a clone.
<repeat chorus> <guitar solo> Send in the clones .... <group chanting in the background, repeating phrase> If you want to be one of His, gotta act like one of us.
<verse> And now I see the whole design, my church is an assembly line, the parts are there I'm feeling fine ... I want to be a clone.
I learned enough to stay afloat, but not so much I rocked the boat, I'm glad they shoved it down my throat .. I want to be a clone.
<repeat chorus>"

Surprisingly enough, this song was not written by an atheist. This was a song written by Steven Tayler (not the guy from Aerosmith), an early artist in the Christian Contemporary music scene. He pointed his message right back at other Christians. He wrote some other semi-controversial songs like this ("Guilty by association" and "Steeple Chase").

Guilty by Association:
"So you need a new truck, let yer fingers take a walk, through the Christian guide for the born-again flock. You'll be keepin' all yer money in the kingdom now .. and you'll only drink milk from a Christian cow.
Don't go castin' yer bread to keep them demons well-fed. Fill Christian pockets instead. Avoid tempation ... guilty by association."
"It's a telethon Tuesday for the gospel club. Send yer money in now, or they're gonna pull the plug.
You remember this fact when they plead and they beg. When a chicken sqawks loud, it's gonna lay a great big egg."

[Darwin]

How is it that we can have a civil discussion about religion (a topic that usually cause lots of bickering) but degrade into flames when discussion videogames (an activity usally rooted in enjoyment)?

[Darwin]

Darwin...I had you all wrong. You're extremely cool and extremely intelligent. Wow.

12

You see how powerful topics on Jesus are? They bring together Xbots and AoE members.

[Deathstroke]

Thomas Aquinas's first cause argument has yet to be adequately disputed, The arguement is what caused our existance. What ever answer you pick, is asked by another question of what caused that. and so on. The first cause must be God. Just my 2 cents.

Unless you ask, what caused God to be created which seems like a natural question to ask. You keep going back and well, there's a force that is probably more powerful if not as sentient. This theory is much like the cell theory which states that all cells come from pre-existing cells. However, it doesn't explain how the first cell came to be.

[T.Tashi]

Unless you ask, what caused God to be created which seems like a natural question to ask. You keep going back and well, there's a force that is probably more powerful if not as sentient. This theory is much like the cell theory which states that all cells come from pre-existing cells. However, it doesn't explain how the first cell came to be.
This is one of the problems with the big bang theory. If nothing existed before the bang... the elements that need to be in existance for the big bang to happen contradicts it. Soo what brought those elements into being to create the bang? Ah ha...

Ancient Egyptian culture, or Kemetic culture, lasted about 5,000 years, some (dissident scholars will say a lot longer) Amen (Ahmen) is a kemetic word that means hidden. They used it as an adjective for describing the supreme being. So in thousands of years that's the best one of the most advanced cultures on earth could come up with... adjectives describing attributes of a supreme being and not the supreme being itself, because if you use words to describe what's not actually describable, you totally miss the mark.

Ancient Kemetic text also states something to the effect of God stating, "I brought myself into being"

[Deathstroke]

Big Bang is one of the most involved theories in Astronomy. I must have stared at that text for well over three hours and couldn't make head or tails out of it. When they started getting into Dark Matter and how that was involved in creation, I chucked the book. Speaking of Dark Matter, that may well be a better example for Tappy to use since you can't see it or prove that it is there.

[Bob-the-Fish]

Unless you ask, what caused God to be created which seems like a natural question to ask. You keep going back and well, there's a force that is probably more powerful if not as sentient. This theory is much like the cell theory which states that all cells come from pre-existing cells. However, it doesn't explain how the first cell came to be.

Humans seem to be just as obsessed with "the begining" and "the end" as they are with proving how important they are. This springs from the fact that we are all born, live a realitively short time and then die, so to a human mind everything does have a begining and an end. A rather abrupt one at that. So we structure our interpretations of the observed world around that. The organizied religions of today, and to the best of my knowledge all those in the past, fulfilled both those desires. By making humans God's greatest creation, it gives them importance. Also, God is the begining and the end. We come from s/he/it, live our short little lives, and are then taken up to s/he/it to spend the rest of eternity. But why do we need the begining and the end? Isn't it possible the universe just exists? It wasn't created or appeared out of no where, it just is.

You see how powerful topics on Jesus are? They bring together Xbots and AoE members.

Sadly, they also drives a massive wedge between many people who should be together anyway. But I guess if we all agreed on everything, life would get pretty boring pretty fast wouldn't it?

[trebor]

In further news, if anyone is interested in the sound of one hand clapping, go check out post # 40. That is all.

[Deathstroke]

Hehe, I made the same point in two sentences in an earlier post.

Oh btw Tashi, the Astronomy text I was reading said that there was stuff before the Big Bang. Whether it was an old universe or something as mundane as a chaotic swirl of gases, we don't know. It could have been God.

[trebor]

Hehe, I made the same point in two sentences in an earlier post.

Oh btw Tashi, the Astronomy text I was reading said that there was stuff before the Big Bang. Whether it was an old universe or something as mundane as a chaotic swirl of gases, we don't know. It could have been God.

Okay then, how's this one...

Nothing is greater than the glory of God (according to Christianity).

If you are starving, a crust of bread is better than nothing.

Therefore a crust of bread is better than the glory of God (especially if you're starving).

[Deathstroke]

But if God sent you the crust of bread....

[trebor]

But if God sent you the crust of bread....

Can God create a crust of bread that is so large that God cannot lift it?

[Deathstroke]

If a tree falls in a forest, can God hear it.

[trebor]

If we are likened unto God, does that mean God is dumb (and maybe a little ugly on the side)?

[Deathstroke]

God is the only being that can take steroids and not have to put up with complications. Although, I think Israel/Palestine could be the sign of 'roid rage.

[Gamer88]

Trebor
For instance, the values many associate with certain religions, are all HUMAN values. If there is a God, it is well beyond a human being's level of comprehension - it would be the same as trying to "get" the concept of infinity. Our senses wouldn't be able to even register it, let alone "understand" it.

Then why even bother trying to comprehend it? Your probably right, If there is a God its well beyond our level of comprehension so we shouldn't even attempt it. Thats why we should all probably just forget about it and just live life the way we wish. Couldn't I just as easily come up with a god names Fred and apply everything good in the world to him? It would be the same thing that many christians do with God now. I believe in God because of Jesus Christ but I can't help but get angry when people can't accept the fact that coincidences happen, Or that bad can come from something good. After all its been proven that good can come from something bad so it should be able to go both ways.

If it does go both ways then why not accept that to much religion can be a bad thing? Not to say some of you don't because you haven't told me yet.. But I have met a lot of people who think that nothing bad can come from good. Those same people seem to think very highly of themselves.

[trebor]

Then why even bother trying to comprehend it? Your probably right, If there is a God its well beyond our level of comprehension so we shouldn't even attempt it. Thats why we should all probably just forget about it and just live life the way we wish.

Well, that's the point. The only "truth" of religion is that nobody really knows the truth.

The real truth in life is that we only have one life. One shot and that's it. Why people dedicate their entire lives to follow a dream is beyond me - there are no second chances if you're wrong. Even if you believe in the Buddhist concept of reincarnation, there will only be one you. Ever. Make the most of it while you can.

If there is a God, it cares as much about what we do as much as we care about what bacteria does.


Couldn't I just as easily come up with a god names Fred and apply everything good in the world to him? It would be the same thing that many christians do with God now.

It's probably a lot more then what most christians do with God now.


I believe in God because of Jesus Christ but I can't help but get angry when people can't accept the fact that coincidences happen, Or that bad can come from something good. After all its been proven that good can come from something bad so it should be able to go both ways.

If it does go both ways then why not accept that to much religion can be a bad thing? Not to say some of you don't because you haven't told me yet.. But I have met a lot of people who think that nothing bad can come from good. Those same people seem to think very highly of themselves.

I don't understand why Jesus Christ proves the existence of God. Being that there is nothing that necessarily proves that Jesus Christ is the child of God, other than the Bible, which is flawed in itself. The Bible was written by humans, remember? Humans are dumb. They make mistakes - as the various incarnations of Christianity and Science have proven throughout history.

I believe Jesus was a very good person, who thought that everyone should just be cool to each other, but unfortunately this lesson hasn't really sunk in with most Christians.

[T.Tashi]

Hehe, I made the same point in two sentences in an earlier post.

Oh btw Tashi, the Astronomy text I was reading said that there was stuff before the Big Bang. Whether it was an old universe or something as mundane as a chaotic swirl of gases, we don't know. It could have been God.
The Kemetic cosmology posits an equilibrium state for the universe in which there are "no things" (this is not quite the same as "nothing"). This state was called "hetep," by the Kemetics, and corresponds to a state of bliss, or what the Hindus call "nirvana" (literally: "no motion"). The corresponding aspect of God is hidden, and unmanifest, and was called "Amen," "Atum," "Nu," and "Nut", and the same aspect of God is called "Olodumare," by the Yoruba of West Africa. <B>In this state there is, however a sort of formless energy/matter which contains all the creative potential of the "thingly" universe before it came into being.</B>

That's what science is getting at, and they were only a few thousand years behind.:p

[AOE Enforcer]

Well, that's the point. The only "truth" of religion is that nobody really knows the truth.

The real truth in life is that we only have one life. One shot and that's it. Why people dedicate their entire lives to follow a dream is beyond me - there are no second chances if you're wrong. Even if you believe in the Buddhist concept of reincarnation, there will only be one you. Ever. Make the most of it while you can.

If there is a God, it cares as much about what we do as much as we care about what bacteria does.



It's probably a lot more then what most christians do with God now.



I don't understand why Jesus Christ proves the existence of God. Being that there is nothing that necessarily proves that Jesus Christ is the child of God, other than the Bible, which is flawed in itself. The Bible was written by humans, remember? Humans are dumb. They make mistakes - as the various incarnations of Christianity and Science have proven throughout history.

I believe Jesus was a very good person, who thought that everyone should just be cool to each other, but unfortunately this lesson hasn't really sunk in with most Christians.

I'm glad you found this thread thought-provoking Trebor. That was my intention (see, I can make good threads ;) .

The Bible and other religious material was all written by human beings who are inherently & undeniably flawed. At the time when the Bible was written, there was no scientific knowledge of the world and it's past. The Bible makes no mention of Dinosaurs because at that time, nobody knew of their existence.

The thought that no good can come of bad or vice versa is wrong. As an example (and a stretch at that), you can look at the story of superheroes in comic books. Superman's planet Krypton was destroyed in a great cataclysm. Surely, a tragic event. Yet, Superman arrived on earth and gained abilities he would never have had if Krypton hadn't been destroyed. And he has used those powers for good.

I think that people should believe what they wish and not only tolerate, but appreciate the differences in the world. I believe that if there is a God and he created all of us and everything around us and the very Earth that we live upon, then (s)he/it has done so so that we may make what we will of our lives without interference.

I find the excuse "it was God's way" and "God works in mysterious ways" to be quite frankly-stupid. Was it God's will that a child be molested? By a devoted member of the Christian faith no less? Or that an old woman be raped and murdered? For better or worse, life and the actions of us and those around us are defined not by some all-powerful deity, but by ourselves.

Is it right to believe that someone who murders people and is placed on deathrow can beg God for forgiveness and go to heaven? Is that person still not "evil?" To me, organized religion began as a way to control the masses in a time of great unrest and violence. It was a way for people who do "good" to feel assured that they would go to heaven, a wonderful place where they will feel no pain and can walk beside their maker for all eternity. For the "evil," it was a warning against doing wrong and the possible consequences of doing wrong.

I think George Carlin said it best: "Relgion-easily-has the Greatest BS Story Ever Told! Think about it: religion has actually convinced people-many of them adults-that there's an invisible man who lives in the sky and watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And who has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.

And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to remain and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry, forever and ever, till the end of time. But he loves you!"

[trebor]

I'm glad you found this thread thought-provoking Trebor. That was my intention (see, I can make good threads ;) .

The Bible and other religious material was all written by human beings who are inherently & undeniably flawed. At the time when the Bible was written, there was no scientific knowledge of the world and it's past. The Bible makes no mention of Dinosaurs because at that time, nobody knew of their existence.

The thought that no good can come of bad or vice versa is wrong. As an example (and a stretch at that), you can look at the story of superheroes in comic books. Superman's planet Krypton was destroyed in a great cataclysm. Surely, a tragic event. Yet, Superman arrived on earth and gained abilities he would never have had if Krypton hadn't been destroyed. And he has used those powers for good.

I think that people should believe what they wish and not only tolerate, but appreciate the differences in the world. I believe that if there is a God and he created all of us and everything around us and the very Earth that we live upon, then (s)he/it has done so so that we may make what we will of our lives without interference.

I find the excuse "it was God's way" and "God works in mysterious ways" to be quite frankly-stupid. Was it God's will that a child be molested? By a devoted member of the Christian faith no less? Or that an old woman be raped and murdered? For better or worse, life and the actions of us and those around us are defined not by some all-powerful deity, but by ourselves.

Is it right to believe that someone who murders people and is placed on deathrow can beg God for forgiveness and go to heaven? Is that person still not "evil?" To me, organized religion began as a way to control the masses in a time of great unrest and violence. It was a way for people who do "good" to feel assured that they would go to heaven, a wonderful place where they will feel no pain and can walk beside their maker for all eternity. For the "evil," it was a warning against doing wrong and the possible consequences of doing wrong.

I think George Carlin said it best: "Relgion-easily-has the Greatest BS Story Ever Told! Think about it: religion has actually convinced people-many of them adults-that there's an invisible man who lives in the sky and watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And who has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.

And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to remain and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry, forever and ever, till the end of time. But he loves you!"

I wonder where the existence of ghosts fits in with the Christian mythology. If you believe in ghosts, does that mean that you don't believe in heaven and hell? I've seen more evidence of ghosts then the Celestial Grandpa.

Also, since Rasputin (the Russian monk) didn't die the first time people tried to kill him (or the second, third or fourth times for that matter), does that mean that he too was the son of God? He was said to have a weird, supernatural aura about him. Plus, he bathed once a month.

Just remember - who would Jesus bomb?

[Gadfly2317]

How is it that we can have a civil discussion about religion (a topic that usually cause lots of bickering) but degrade into flames when discussion videogames (an activity usally rooted in enjoyment)?


Good point.

Does this mean we are more passionate about our games than our gods?

(I also liked your last post, and the song lyrics/w commentary.)

[Gadfly2317]

This is an EXCELLENT topic, Enforcer, and frankly, I wish more discussions on this board were as deep and thought provoking.

Here is my $0.02....

The inherent problem with organized religion - ALL organized religions - is that ALL religions we know of and practice have been intrepreted by human beings, and are therefore inherently flawed.

For instance, the values many associate with certain religions, are all HUMAN values. If there is a God, it is well beyond a human being's level of comprehension - it would be the same as trying to "get" the concept of infinity. Our senses wouldn't be able to even register it, let alone "understand" it.

So, basically, it ('"it" as in "God") is well beyond all humanly concerns. In fact, I would doubt that an omnipotent being could really give a rat's ass about what humans do to pass the time - being as that we would be so beneath them that we would be less important to them then your common insect is to us. It's only man's ego that suggests that humans are a concern of "God". Mainly because humans can't deal with how utterly insignificant we are to the grand scheme of things, and therefore, we raise our self-importance by thinking a Celestial Grandpa cares about what we had for breakfast.

In terms of Ninja Gaiden - I find the inclusion of sex into the game to be offensive to me. Not because of any religious reason, but more because of plain good taste. Thonged demon-wenches are not necessary to a game to be "cool", yet I can just see executives wanting more T&A in the game simply because "sex sells". Does having scantily clad females in the game add to the whole experience? Or is it a blatant attempt to appeal to horny teenage boys, and other teenieboppers who think "M" rated games are "cool". THAT is what I find offensive.

Great post, as was bob's before it. I think I've said enough in this thread about spirituality, religion, symbols, and other things. . . .so:

I'm going to talk about sexy thonged demons in Ninja Gaiden. Because, you know, well, it's kinda back to the topic at hand. Ninja Gaiden as reviewed by Christians.

I've been as vocal against xbox's gratuitious use of sex and violence to sell to teens as anyone. And I love nintendo's light-hearted all ages fun games. But I've got my twisted side too. I'm looking forward to Manhunt, Doom III, and the Suffering. And I don't think there's been enough sex in games, really.

My problem with Ninja Gaiden is that the story is an incoherent mess, and the cut scenes and the blatant sexualizing of the demons doesn't serve the story in anyway, its just there to tittilate and sell. I'm opposed to that--not because of morality--but because it is lazy hackwork.

Now, if the story is that these demonic seductresses are luring men into their beds to create hell spawn, and its your job to fight the hellspawn, and then at some point in the story, YOU, the POWERFUL HERO, are seduced and graphically ravished by this sexy she-demon (and I'm talking CG she-demon porn here), who then bears your children. Then, after you the HERO shakes off the hypnosis, and the she-demon has fled to bear your childeren who because they are the offspring of a HERO and a DEMON, become the ultimate tyranny of the land, and that you have to confront them in the ultimate Boss battle, YOU killing the thong wearing demon along with wave after wave of hellspawn that you sired.. . .

well, then the sexy thong wearing demon wouldn't be gratuitious. It would be part of the plot of the game, and we could all congratulate xbox for having pushed the boundries of sex and violence in a game with both originality and good taste.

And of course I'd love to see the christian game review site take that one on!!!

[folken001]

Good point.

Does this mean we are more passionate about our games than our gods?

(I also liked your last post, and the song lyrics/w commentary.)
I think it is because people know that religion is a much more sensitive subject.

[T.Tashi]

Humans seem to be just as obsessed with "the begining" and "the end" as they are with proving how important they are. This springs from the fact that we are all born, live a realitively short time and then die, so to a human mind everything does have a begining and an end. A rather abrupt one at that. So we structure our interpretations of the observed world around that. The organizied religions of today, and to the best of my knowledge all those in the past, fulfilled both those desires. By making humans God's greatest creation, it gives them importance. Also, God is the begining and the end. We come from s/he/it, live our short little lives, and are then taken up to s/he/it to spend the rest of eternity. But why do we need the begining and the end? Isn't it possible the universe just exists? It wasn't created or appeared out of no where, it just is.



Sadly, they also drives a massive wedge between many people who should be together anyway. But I guess if we all agreed on everything, life would get pretty boring pretty fast wouldn't it?
You don't find many people just willing to sit comfortably with the mystery of it all. Typically the western mindset needs an explanation, no matter how outrageous that explanation may be, be it from Jim Jones, David Koresh or Marshall Applewhite.

[Bob-the-Fish]

I think it is because people know that religion is a much more sensitive subject.

That's what I was thinking. There is no reason intelligent people can't have healthy, constructive discusions.

Just not about consoles :rolleyes:

Now, if the story is that these demonic seductresses are luring men into their beds to create hell spawn, and its your job to fight the hellspawn, and then at some point in the story, YOU, the POWERFUL HERO, are seduced and graphically ravished by this sexy she-demon (and I'm talking CG she-demon porn here), who then bears your children. Then, after you the HERO shakes off the hypnosis, and the she-demon has fled to bear your childeren who because they are the offspring of a HERO and a DEMON, become the ultimate tyranny of the land, and that you have to confront them in the ultimate Boss battle, YOU killing the thong wearing demon along with wave after wave of hellspawn that you sired.. . .

well, then the sexy thong wearing demon wouldn't be gratuitious. It would be part of the plot of the game, and we could all congratulate xbox for having pushed the boundries of sex and violence in a game with both originality and good taste.

Sounds like the plot to a bad episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Angel :)

I've been rather unimpressed with the connections and plot threads in NG, gratuitious or not. Why a women would feel that a leather thong is the best garb for combating demons is beyond me but I can understand said demons dressing in ways we may not find appropriate. This alienates them and yet makes them a desireable object, the epitome of evil. I know that is probably not why Team Ninja did it, but hey.

But the "oh I must kill the almighty demon lord to avenge my village/family/hamster" line been done to death already and NG shows absolutly no indication it will offer anything different. I haven't finished it so they could throw in some crazy plot switch in the last five chapters, but I really doubt it. There is one little thing I'm guessing could happen that might make the story a bit more interesting, but I'll wait till I get to the end to see if they use it.

My biggest problem though is the extreme linear nature of the game. And the fact that there is no "ninja" involved in the execution of that linear progression. There is exactly one very specific way to get past each obstacle and it must be executed perfectly in order to proceed. There is no figuring out an interesting "ninja" way to do aything like climbing a drainpipe and running on the roof tops, hang climbing along the bottom of the blimp, something sneaky or shooting the driver before he gets in the tank. It is nothing but hack n' slash, so don't expect the story to deliver any ground breaking elements either.

[Darwin]

I find the excuse "it was God's way" and "God works in mysterious ways" to be quite frankly-stupid. Was it God's will that a child be molested? By a devoted member of the Christian faith no less? Or that an old woman be raped and murdered? For better or worse, life and the actions of us and those around us are defined not by some all-powerful deity, but by ourselves. ...

Is it right to believe that someone who murders people and is placed on deathrow can beg God for forgiveness and go to heaven? Is that person still not "evil?" ....

I think George Carlin said it best: ... And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish ..."[/b]

1) Free will: I believe that God gave us free will. With free will comes the potential for good and harm. It is not God's will that a child be molested ... that is the will of a man who used his free will. Why didn't God stop him? I don't know. God doesn't stop a lot of things, He allows free will to run it's course. It doesn't make it right in His eyes, but he (for some reason) allows it. The point is, don't blame God for the molestation of these kids. This is a result of a man's evil desires.

Why are there so many bad things in the world today? Hmmmm ... well, we pollute our planet, put carcinogens in our bodies, drive at unsafe speeds, use substances in an unsafe manner , etc. ... a lot of "bad things" that God allows to "happen" to "good people" are probably the result of our own free will.

2) Salvation: If you read the Bible, you'll see that salvation is not by works. Salvation, according to the Bible, is only a gift ... one that you must choose to receive. The point that the Bible makes is that noone is ever "good" enough to get into heaven. Does a deathrow inmate "deserve" to get into heaven if he repents and accepts the gift of salvation. According to the Bible, yes he can get into heaven. But he doesn't "deserve" to ... none of us "deserve" to. That does seem odd to us, but we are not the standards by which "good enough" is defined. There is a passage in the Bible that says something along the lines of "even our best works are still filthy rags compared to Christ's righteousness". According to the Bible, God is holy and righteous, so any attempt on our part to "earn" our way into heaven is futile. That is why you must humble yourself and accept salvation as a gift. This is salvation according to what the Bible says.

Certain powerful men within the world of religion have tried to add on or to twist what the Bible says about salvation. Some utilize good works as a means for salvation. Some make you pay pentence and say sentences over and over, as if this somehow will undu "evil works". Some have insinuated that the plan of salvation also involves giving of money to their church. Man have been manipulating concepts of salvation and Hell, using scare tactics, mind games, and various other tactics over time. None of this is based on what the Bible says. Perhaps the general non-beleiving population views religion, specifically Christianity, in the way that George Carlin stated. OK. Fine. You are free to beleive what you want. But I just wanted to point out that these ideas of salvation by works are not based on what the Bible says, but rather rules that men have made up.

[Twelve]

You see how powerful topics on Jesus are? They bring together Xbots and AoE members.


HA!

You got it.


12

["The Game"Evolution]

Okay then, how's this one...

Nothing is greater than the glory of God (according to Christianity).

If you are starving, a crust of bread is better than nothing.

Therefore a crust of bread is better than the glory of God (especially if you're starving).

This topic is getting wayyyyyy too personal.Indeed there were alot of interesting replies on this,but this is clearly getting away from the original thread that spawned this discussion in the first place.

[Gadfly2317]

1) Free will: I believe that God gave us free will. With free will comes the potential for good and harm. It is not God's will that a child be molested ... that is the will of a man who used his free will. Why didn't God stop him? I don't know. God doesn't stop a lot of things, He allows free will to run it's course. It doesn't make it right in His eyes, but he (for some reason) allows it. The point is, don't blame God for the molestation of these kids. This is a result of a man's evil desires.

Why are there so many bad things in the world today? Hmmmm ... well, we pollute our planet, put carcinogens in our bodies, drive at unsafe speeds, use substances in an unsafe manner , etc. ... a lot of "bad things" that God allows to "happen" to "good people" are probably the result of our own free will.

2) Salvation: If you read the Bible, you'll see that salvation is not by works. Salvation, according to the Bible, is only a gift ... one that you must choose to receive. The point that the Bible makes is that noone is ever "good" enough to get into heaven. Does a deathrow inmate "deserve" to get into heaven if he repents and accepts the gift of salvation. According to the Bible, yes he can get into heaven. But he doesn't "deserve" to ... none of us "deserve" to. That does seem odd to us, but we are not the standards by which "good enough" is defined. There is a passage in the Bible that says something along the lines of "even our best works are still filthy rags compared to Christ's righteousness". According to the Bible, God is holy and righteous, so any attempt on our part to "earn" our way into heaven is futile. That is why you must humble yourself and accept salvation as a gift. This is salvation according to what the Bible says.

Certain powerful men within the world of religion have tried to add on or to twist what the Bible says about salvation. Some utilize good works as a means for salvation. Some make you pay pentence and say sentences over and over, as if this somehow will undu "evil works". Some have insinuated that the plan of salvation also involves giving of money to their church. Man have been manipulating concepts of salvation and Hell, using scare tactics, mind games, and various other tactics over time. None of this is based on what the Bible says. Perhaps the general non-beleiving population views religion, specifically Christianity, in the way that George Carlin stated. OK. Fine. You are free to beleive what you want. But I just wanted to point out that these ideas of salvation by works are not based on what the Bible says, but rather rules that men have made up.


I see no evidence at all of free will, and I draw this from both science and religion. First, from a christian perspective, even if you don't believe in Calvinistic pre-determination, the bible clearly teaches that God is supreme, all powerful, all knowing (including the future), and that nothing happens that is not according to HIS will. I will bust out texts if you need me to, but to most christians these are commonly accepted and known. So, when the genesis story describes this God placing a tree in a garden as a "test" when he already knows the outcome, and nothing happens without his will, then no one but an all-powerful God can be responsible for that, and for all the carnage that came after. That makes no sense. . .there is nothing wise or loving about such behavior, so instead of performing the agonizing mental gymnastics to try to somehow rationalize the ludicrious story as true, why not realize that the bible is great literature, and may provide some moral guidance, but taken literally it not only makes no sense, but paints the picture of an immoral, incompetent, murderous deity.

And free will from a scientific and buddhist point of view (seemed like a fun pair of things to mix.) Take your child-molester example. He can molest, or not molest. It is his "choice" thus free will. People think because they have binary either/or choices, that this equals free will. But a computer can be programmed to make either/or choices. That isn't free will. WHY do people make the choice they make? That is the big question regarding this so called free will.

I have a friend who is perfectly well behaved, was a straight A student, has a successful career, and never used drugs once. She made all the right choices. She has two sisters, but these sisters have a different father. Both are junkies who've been in and out of jail, they are narcissitic, cruel, and one participated in a murder. Free Will or biology? Every day there are new discoveries in brain science and brain chemistry showing just how strongly the choices we make are determined by our brain chemistry. And on top of that theirs all the imprinting, programming, and conditioning since birth.

Buddhism indicates that most people are asleep (or in a robot state for a more modern metaphor) and that the true spiritual struggle is to wake up from this sleeping, robotic state. People tend to stumble through life making those robotic binary either/or choices and think they are free, when they are slaves to their biology and their conditioning/imprinting. We are not given free will, we struggle to attain even a semblence of it. We can take control of our biology to an extent when we recognize it (yoga is an excellent way to begin doing this) and their are methods to take control of reprogramming your own brain software (overriding all the negative, random imprints and conditioning that got into your head as you were growing up.) It would take volumes to expand on this.

One final thought I want to add, and then I'm going to stop posting in this thread, is that I agree with a couple other guys who wondered why people feel so compelled to "believe" and to "know." We surely are aware we are choosing to believe what we want because it helps us feel better, but we surely also on some level realize that we don't, and can't, KNOW anything about the metaphysical world, if there even is such a thing. Anyone who says they KNOW what happens when they die, or that they KNOW a god exists is lying to themselves on some level--there is only hope and blind faith, not knowledge.

It's typical western control-issue stuff to think we need an answer for everything. Ask a average person a question about any topic (are you for stem cell research) and even if they know the vaguest tiniest bit about it, the typical person will have a yes/no believe/don't believe answer, based on nothing at all. It's why we have such a high rate of heart disease. People are so uptight about needing an answer. Unclench your butts, folks, and let go, relax, live in the moment of your perceptions with love, seek your True Will, but realize its ok to say these words: "I just don't know, but its ok, because it doesn't matter."

[T.Tashi]

On free will...

In eastern philosophy God doesn't need to police the universe or in our limited case our world/planet because even before the creation of the world, the laws to police it were created, and our actions carry consequence. It's commonly called karma and the parallel in the Bible would be "and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." I think people often misinterpret this as justifying revenge but I think that's misguided. To me, that's clearly a reference to the law of karma, you reap what you sow.

In Taoism, they say humans have free will to make choices, but Masters make the same choices over and over again. So to degree, Gadfly is right and I agree. Free will is an illusion. For instance if I was really free to make choices, I could eat all the junk food I want without effecting my health. So obviously I'm free to eat it... I'm not free of the consequences of eating it. That's why in Taoism, Masters make the same choice, every reincarnation, if you believe in that... there is no other choice in walking the path of the Tao.

A popular Egyptian scene is the heart or ab, being weighed against a feather. The feather represent's God's law. God's law is as light as a feather, meaning, there's no real pressure to conform. There's also a crocodile present to devour the heart if it weighs more than the feather... meaning if this person didn't follow God's laws. So Darwin is right also... we do have a choice, just not outside the consequences.

[Thrower, WCG-Fanboy Flame]

I see no evidence at all of free will, and I draw this from both science and religion. First, from a christian perspective, even if you don't believe in Calvinistic pre-determination, the bible clearly teaches that God is supreme, all powerful, all knowing (including the future), and that nothing happens that is not according to HIS will. I will bust out texts if you need me to, but to most christians these are commonly accepted and known. So, when the genesis story describes this God placing a tree in a garden as a "test" when he already knows the outcome, and nothing happens without his will, then no one but an all-powerful God can be responsible for that, and for all the carnage that came after. That makes no sense. . .there is nothing wise or loving about such behavior, so instead of performing the agonizing mental gymnastics to try to somehow rationalize the ludicrious story as true, why not realize that the bible is great literature, and may provide some moral guidance, but taken literally it not only makes no sense, but paints the picture of an immoral, incompetent, murderous deity.

And free will from a scientific and buddhist point of view (seemed like a fun pair of things to mix.) Take your child-molester example. He can molest, or not molest. It is his "choice" thus free will. People think because they have binary either/or choices, that this equals free will. But a computer can be programmed to make either/or choices. That isn't free will. WHY do people make the choice they make? That is the big question regarding this so called free will.

I have a friend who is perfectly well behaved, was a straight A student, has a successful career, and never used drugs once. She made all the right choices. She has two sisters, but these sisters have a different father. Both are junkies who've been in and out of jail, they are narcissitic, cruel, and one participated in a murder. Free Will or biology? Every day there are new discoveries in brain science and brain chemistry showing just how strongly the choices we make are determined by our brain chemistry. And on top of that theirs all the imprinting, programming, and conditioning since birth.

Buddhism indicates that most people are asleep (or in a robot state for a more modern metaphor) and that the true spiritual struggle is to wake up from this sleeping, robotic state. People tend to stumble through life making those robotic binary either/or choices and think they are free, when they are slaves to their biology and their conditioning/imprinting. We are not given free will, we struggle to attain even a semblence of it. We can take control of our biology to an extent when we recognize it (yoga is an excellent way to begin doing this) and their are methods to take control of reprogramming your own brain software (overriding all the negative, random imprints and conditioning that got into your head as you were growing up.) It would take volumes to expand on this.

One final thought I want to add, and then I'm going to stop posting in this thread, is that I agree with a couple other guys who wondered why people feel so compelled to "believe" and to "know." We surely are aware we are choosing to believe what we want because it helps us feel better, but we surely also on some level realize that we don't, and can't, KNOW anything about the metaphysical world, if there even is such a thing. Anyone who says they KNOW what happens when they die, or that they KNOW a god exists is lying to themselves on some level--there is only hope and blind faith, not knowledge.

It's typical western control-issue stuff to think we need an answer for everything. Ask a average person a question about any topic (are you for stem cell research) and even if they know the vaguest tiniest bit about it, the typical person will have a yes/no believe/don't believe answer, based on nothing at all. It's why we have such a high rate of heart disease. People are so uptight about needing an answer. Unclench your butts, folks, and let go, relax, live in the moment of your perceptions with love, seek your True Will, but realize its ok to say these words: "I just don't know, but its ok, because it doesn't matter."


So because you know that something is going to happen means that you control it? I think you missed Darwin's point actions doesn't earn you salvation. The bible never said that god promised us the best conditions on earth. You are caught up in the actions of man and then laying blame at god's foot. What's the point of salvation if we are all automatically controlled to do the right thing?

As far as you biology controls behavior theory I don't agree with that at all. I happen to think environment has more effect on an individual than biology.

Bottom line christianity is founded on the principles of faith. It's hard for a lot of people to have faith in something that they can't see so they look for answers in science which is a practice of man who is flawed. How can you judge the bible as being flawed and not accurate because it's written by man. But accept every edict of science another product of man which time and again proves itself to be wrong?

[trebor]

I have to say something here, this is probably one of the 5 best threads I've EVER read on this forum (if not THE best). Not only are we all having a mature, enlightening discussion based on theology, but we are actually LEARNING about each other - and I think that's great!

I've learned more about the participants of this thread then over a year's worth of "PS2 RULEZ!", "Xbox is teh bestest1!!" and "Kitty-Cube rox!". It's nice to get a glimpse of peoples personalities beyond the two dimensional issues of which console is the best.

But now, unfortunately, I'm going to comment on Ninja Gaiden, yet again. I took some time, the last time I was at a videogame store, to watch the cut-scenes for NG. Let me tell ya', it was the most unimaginative piece of trite garbage I've seen in quite a while.

Ooh let's see, the ancient LEGENDARY "Dragon" Sword was lost for a millennia, but now it's in the hands of a foretold HERO FROM DEH PROPHESY - who is out to AVENGE his VILLAGE, after they were wiped out from TEH BADDEREST BAD PEOPLES DER IS. Now only THE HERO can defeat the EVIL BAD-DUDES, or THE WHOLE WORLD WILL BE ALL DESTROYED AND STUFF. Plus, der be BOOBIES AND BUTTS!!!

Excuse me while I vomit. *Bleah*

[trebor]

So because you know that something is going to happen means that you control it? I think you missed Darwin's point actions doesn't earn you salvation. The bible never said that god promised us the best conditions on earth. You are caught up in the actions of man and then laying blame at god's foot. What's the point of salvation if we are all automatically controlled to do the right thing?

Let me ask you this, what is the point of salvation itself? To keep ourselves from eternal torture and pain, at the hands of a God who is supposed to be all loving? According to what your saying, our actions have no effect at all on whether we can "make the list" to get into heaven.

So somebody like me, who is agnostic, yet has never harmed another person through violence, or cheated on my fiancee, or stolen money from people or, etc., will be sent to hell, because I choose to not blindly believe in God. Or in other words, although I have lived my life upholding more Christian values (without even being a Christian) I will be sent to hell on a technicality?

Whereas a murderer, child-molester, adulterer, who chooses to "be saved" right before they are put to death, will ascend to heaven? That is what you believe in?!

Doesn't it seem, oh how shall we say, a bit megalomanical to create a species (humans) for the sole purpose of worshipping you, and then if they don't you punish them for eternity? Doesn't sound like we have free will at all, in that sense. You either worship God or you risk eternal damnation.


As far as you biology controls behavior theory I don't agree with that at all. I happen to think environment has more effect on an individual than biology.

Ahhh..yes, the good old Nature -vs- Nuture debate. We are SURE to figure out a conclusion to that question that has been plaguing scientists for decades.

A number of years ago, People magazine (of all publications) did an article of a set of twins, who were separated at birth, who were reunited in their 40's. Without ever meeting each other, they both ended up as firemen, had the same favorite food, enjoyed the same type of pets, and lived in the same climactic condidtions.

Unless something in their biological make-up made them enjoy the same food, seek the same professions and have similar interests, that is one hell of a coincidence - don't you think?


Bottom line christianity is founded on the principles of faith. It's hard for a lot of people to have faith in something that they can't see so they look for answers in science which is a practice of man who is flawed. How can you judge the bible as being flawed and not accurate because it's written by man. But accept every edict of science another product of man which time and again proves itself to be wrong?

I think the fact that science has proven itself wrong, time and time again would lead most people to believe that science is has fallable as religion. Science and religion are two sides to the same coin. Both are created by man, and as such, both are inherently flawed.

The only difference is that in science what is deemed as "truth" is more easily changed then what religion deems as "truth".

[Thrower, WCG-Fanboy Flame]

Let me ask you this, what is the point of salvation itself? To keep ourselves from eternal torture and pain, at the hands of a God who is supposed to be all loving? According to what your saying, our actions have no effect at all on whether we can "make the list" to get into heaven.

So somebody like me, who is agnostic, yet has never harmed another person through violence, or cheated on my fiancee, or stolen money from people or, etc., will be sent to hell, because I choose to not blindly believe in God. Or in other words, although I have lived my life upholding more Christian values (without even being a Christian) I will be sent to hell on a technicality?

Whereas a murderer, child-molester, adulterer, who chooses to "be saved" right before they are put to death, will ascend to heaven? That is what you believe in?!

Doesn't it seem, oh how shall we say, a bit megalomanical to create a species (humans) for the sole purpose of worshipping you, and then if they don't you punish them for eternity? Doesn't sound like we have free will at all, in that sense. You either worship God or you risk eternal damnation.



Ahhh..yes, the good old Nature -vs- Nuture debate. We are SURE to figure out a conclusion to that question that has been plaguing scientists for decades.

A number of years ago, People magazine (of all publications) did an article of a set of twins, who were separated at birth, who were reunited in their 40's. Without ever meeting each other, they both ended up as firemen, had the same favorite food, enjoyed the same type of pets, and lived in the same climactic condidtions.

Unless something in their biological make-up made them enjoy the same food, seek the same professions and have similar interests, that is one hell of a coincidence - don't you think?



I think the fact that science has proven itself wrong, time and time again would lead most people to believe that science is has fallable as religion. Science and religion are two sides to the same coin. Both are created by man, and as such, both are inherently flawed.

The only difference is that in science what is deemed as "truth" is more easily changed then what religion deems as "truth".

I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore but since you reffered to me specificaly I'm going to respond.

I'm going to make an analogy for you. Your're out freezing in a blizzard and you want to come into my house for warmth and shelter. I know that you are basically a good person but I want you to respect me as the man of my house. You don't want to acknowlege that but you insist that you are not going to cause a problem so I should let you in. But you cant respect me as the man of my own house so why should I let you in?

The bible clearly states that since the garden of Eden all men are with sin and that we all fall short of the glory of god. The mass murderer may have been scum and committed unspeakable acts but in the end he humble himself to the glory of god. Pride is one of the worst sins according to the bible. You are basically saying that I live a good life I don't do anything wrong I should be allowed into heaven even if I dont believe in god. But according to christianity your pride is the sin. Your words are in efffect saying that Jesus sacrifice was in vain because you are good person and you should be allowed into heaven so he didn't sacrifice anything for you. When the bible teaches that Jesus died for all mankinds sin not just the good people.

Satan /lucifer was one of heaven's brightest and most beautiful angels. His sin was that of pride he wanted to be god. So he was cast out he wasn't running around killing other angels or anything like that. You have to respect the laws of the land or the Master of the castle or whatever.

I can respect your beliefs because I shared a lot of them even though I was raised in the church. I am by no means the best chrsitan on the block or even overly religious. But christianity is my faith. And that's the key to any religion it's faith.

About the environment thing and the twins that could just be coincedence. What about every other fireman in the world is it in there genes as well? I have seen people and I have friends who were born in the ghetto, who's parents were straight crack heads drug dealers or whatever but they made a better way for themselves. I've been to school with kids who's parents wealth afforeded them every advantage and opprunity and who were driven and smart people themselves but there kids were basically just smoked out druggies who had the parents with money to support there habbit. Where is the biological connection in that?

Like science has been open to change when new discoveries are made the same can be said for christianity as well. There have been several revision to the bible and there are millions of interpertations of it. So like science it's ever evolving as well. Christians just focus more on faith

We can go all day all month all year about this but we wont ever have an answer until we die. I respect your views as well as most others. The only reason I even posted in this thread was because ol cyberdine (old school VGR vet) made a broad steortype while complaining about being on the end of a steorotype.


P.S. I won't be emailing anybody religious propaganda or anything and I'm not trying to convert anyone just sharing my views like everyone else.