LOL America the Beautiful?

[Suicides-by-Steve]

Get Green? Driving calmly saves gas? Why aren't these people pushing Hydrogen? This is the ONLY solution right now... Sheesh! Maybe Bush should support the Kyoto Accord to add some credence to this ad... Driving calmly!? LOL Try not driving at all! Take a bus. Get a low emission vehicle... drive slow? Give me a break.... :(

[Renzatic Gear]

You forget that Bush and his family are heavily involved in oil. If you want someone to push for a hydrogen fuel system it'll have to be someone else.

[mandark]

Which brings us to Vote NO for Bush this coming November, IMO. Its getting scary too how Bush is now mixing religion and state. It almost reminds me of the medieval days that I watch in the History channel. Whats next Spanish Inquisitions?

[Aku]

I'm all for massive oil consumption. The more Hummers we drive around in, the more Exxon tankers piloted by drunken skippers crash into glaciers, the faster we use up the world's oil supply. If we can accelerate oil consumption, maybe we can put the Middle East out of business by the end of this century. By then our grandkids will all be driving around Utopia in their nookuler-powered hovercrafts. ;)

[Chris]

Why is this being discussed in a General PC Gaming discussion forum anyway? It's likely just going to make tempers flare.

[Aku]

Which brings us to Vote NO for Bush this coming November, IMO. Its getting scary too how Bush is now mixing religion and state. It almost reminds me of the medieval days that I watch in the History channel. Whats next Spanish Inquisitions?

Come now, liberals mix religion and state all the time, the only difference being the religion is atheism.

[Aku]

Why is this being discussed in a General PC Gaming discussion forum anyway? It's likely just going to make tempers flare.

I don't see anyone's temper flaring, but you guys can always close the thread if it gets out of line.

[Chris]

I don't see anyone's temper flaring, but you guys can always close the thread if it gets out of line.I don't either, but I'm sure it will happen soon...

My thoughts - I'm a car enthusiast, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't agree with trying to get rid of gas-powered cars altogether. That's fine for the people who use cars to simply get from point A to point B. But not for people like me who are passionate about motorsports and performance. Alternate-fuel cars just don't perform very well, and I wouldn't buy one anytime soon mainly because of that. It's nice to see hybrid vehicles coming out which don't suffer performance loss, and that's slowly catching my attention, but I think there are lots of other areas we can look at to cut down pollution aside from automobiles.

Personally I think automobiles get a bad rap for pollution, compared to the big businesses who do so much of the polluting. Gas engines are burning fuel so clean now, it's quite amazing. Of course, holding large corps responsible for pollution is not going to happen since we're in a period of "pro-big-business". So it's us car nuts who end up suffering :(. Cars are a big reason why I love America and California in particular. It's part of our/my culture. I think advancements in smog technology in cars has come a long way, and as a result, are not as harmful to the environment today as people may think. Why not just ban smoking? That's bad for the environment and everyones' health. :)

[Wolfman 91]

Get Green? Driving calmly saves gas? Why aren't these people pushing Hydrogen? This is the ONLY solution right now... Sheesh! Maybe Bush should support the Kyoto Accord to add some credence to this ad... Driving calmly!? LOL Try not driving at all! Take a bus. Get a low emission vehicle... drive slow? Give me a break.... :(
George Bush has done everthing he has promised in his election campagin so Suicide Steve u need to write better reviews especially on George Bush you DEMOCRAT!!

[E.T.]

"My thoughts - I'm a car enthusiast, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't agree with trying to get rid of gas-powered cars altogether. That's fine for the people who use cars to simply get from point A to point B. But not for people like me who are passionate about motorsports and performance."

"Personally I think automobiles get a bad rap for pollution, compared to the big businesses who do so much of the polluting. Gas engines are burning fuel so clean now, it's quite amazing. Of course, holding large corps responsible for pollution is not going to happen since we're in a period of "pro-big-business". So it's us car nuts who end up suffering . Cars are a big reason why I love America and California in particular. It's part of our/my culture".

I hear ya Chris! Ive dedicated a good part of life & resources in the collector car hobby.
The special interest vehicles I own [classic era 30's to 60's muscle cars] rarely get drive more than 200 miles a years. Its my way of preserving a part of American heritage.

When it comes to air pollution, stationary polluters have always found a way around their responsibility to produce clean air. They often pay for their offences by crushing old cars & receiving credit from the EPA in return for their transgressions.. That does nothing to effect their factory emissions, but rather satisfies [twisted] government standards.


"Why is this being discussed in a General PC Gaming discussion forum anyway?"
Speaking of pollution, lets get rid of the "Off Topic" portion of PC>General Discussion, & open a new board for "Off Topic" gossip & trash talk. PC>General Discussion was meant for gaming content. We need a yakitty yak board exclusive of gaming topics.

[Suicides-by-Steve]

George Bush has done everthing he has promised in his election campagin so Suicide Steve u need to write better reviews especially on George Bush you DEMOCRAT!!

Okay, now my feelings are hurt... and in a second buddy, you'll really see my temper flare!! How dare you get on your high horse, and start picking apart my reviews... You've really hurt my feelings... I KNEW I shouldn't have posted this... 8( (oh by the way, I'm kidding- get bent!). I don't even vote- it only encourages them. Oh, and to tell you the truth, I'm more of a Communist than a Democrat... Democracy doesn't work when the population gets out of control IMO...

Though Aku, I liked your response... heh. The thing is when you use up all the world's oil supply, you won't be having neat little things such as plastics that we have come to depend on so much these days... gulp! What would our computers be made of? I had just heard the other day about point-zero emission vehicles, in which vehicles installed with PZEV's, the cars reduces 98% of the bad gases... I find it funny that they are only available in 6 States... WHY?!

[Aku]

Though Aku, I liked your response... heh. The thing is when you use up all the world's oil supply, you won't be having neat little things such as plastics that we have come to depend on so much these days... gulp! What would our computers be made of?

We could burn our movies and music onto wooden discs, uh, yeah.

[Renzatic Gear]

Steve The Commie Canadian is half right. We'll be losing alot of petroleum based substances like plastic and uhh...styrofoam. But I'm sure that we'll eventually come up with an equally efficient substitute sometime in the near future.

Like you could put CD's on glass or crystal for instance...that technology is still a good decade off, but it's coming.

[Suicides-by-Steve]

Yeah, in Babylon 5 for instance, they have Crystal Datacubes... Though that link you sent me once upon a time of the digital newspaper was really cool.

[Renzatic Gear]

Actually that's already been done in real life. Crystal datacubes that store information in 3 dimensions have been produced, and can actually manage to fit the entire library of congress onto .5x.5x.5 inch cube, but the machine used to read it would fill up someones entire house and cost em millions of dollars.

Pretty interesting stuff.

[Static_Fred]

[QUOTE=Suicides-by-Steve]
The thing is when you use up all the world's oil supply, you won't be having neat little things such as plastics that we have come to depend on so much these days... gulp! What would our computers be made of?QUOTE]

I'd be down with a cedar hardwood computer casing... Maybe Alienware could burn me some cool pictures on the side, i just can't wait! :D

[Legolas]

Come now, liberals mix religion and state all the time, the only difference being the religion is atheism.

I have heard this before and I don't get it. I am an atheist (bring forth the torches!) and I certainly do not believe such a personal option to be a religion. Atheist means "without a god", that is, an atheist is someone who does NOT believe there is a god, any god.

Religions are INSTITUTIONS, they have a hierarchical order, they have normatives and rules, codes of behavior, places of worshiping, sacred books, sacred beliefs. Atheism has none of the above.

One could argue atheism is felt by some people AS STRONGLY as others feel about religion... that is true, of course, but it does not make it a religion per se. Just as believing in, say, huge SUV's against little wimpy electricaly powered cars is not a religion either.

Nitpicking? maybe, just sharing some thoughts on the subject...

[Aku]

I have heard this before and I don't get it. I am an atheist (bring forth the torches!) and I certainly do not believe such a personal option to be a religion. Atheist means "without a god", that is, an atheist is someone who does NOT believe there is a god, any god.

Religions are INSTITUTIONS, they have a hierarchical order, they have normatives and rules, codes of behavior, places of worshiping, sacred books, sacred beliefs. Atheism has none of the above.

One could argue atheism is felt by some people AS STRONGLY as others feel about religion... that is true, of course, but it does not make it a religion per se. Just as believing in, say, huge SUV's against little wimpy electricaly powered cars is not a religion either.

Nitpicking? maybe, just sharing some thoughts on the subject...

You're in good company. Most people who are left-of-center don't get it. Atheism is a belief system. Atheists*believe* that there is no God. They don't conduct scientific studies and present empirical evidence that there is no God, they just believe that there is no God. So it's a belief system, just like one where you believe there's a God.

I have no beef with that. Believe what you want. My point is, that people on the Left are constantly harping on the dangers of mixing church and state, and the Republican "conspiracy" to marry church and state. The problem is, that argument is weak at best, and is simply a cover for the Left's agenda, which has nothing to do with the separation of church and state, but rather the removal of religion from society. In the Left's perfect world, religion is replaced by the State, and the State becomes God. I see that as just a big a danger as a Theocracy. I don't want to live in Communist China, or the old Soviet Untion, where the State is/was the Almighty and you get persecuted for your religious (and other) beliefs.

We see examples of the hypocrisies inherent in separation of church and state arguments all the time. The teacher who loses her job at a public school because she wore a cross (personal religious expression). The buddha that gets taken down because it's on public land (is that really mixing church and state...is the statue of the Buddha going to vote at city council meetings?). The display of the Ten Commandments removed from a courthouse (aren't most of these rules kind of universal, regardless of your belief system? Can't they be appreciated by a Buddhist, a Moslem...even an atheist?) The fight against prayer groups at public schools, and on and on.

I'm all for separation of church and state, but people have to remember that the founders of this country instituted that standard to protect religion from government even more so than to protect government from religion. And I don't like seeing the separation of church and state argument twisted to promote religious intolerance. Society is better off when you can walk through a public park and see a nice statue of a buddha, when a student can ask a teacher about the cross she's wearing, when people learn about each other's religious heritage - whatever it is - than a society where these things aren't tolerated in public settings under the guise of "separation of church and state".

Government and Religious *instititutions* need to remain separate, but governements are also supposed to relfect the religious and cultural values of its citizenry. Expunging religious and cultural values from government has always been the aim of the Left, and that is as dangerous a thing any religion hijacking a government to enforce its religious code as law. Iran, Saudi Arabia, the old Afghanistan; North Korea, China, the old Soviet Union. Different ends of the spectrum, same result: tyranny, oppression, closed societies.

[Legolas]

You're in good company. Most people who are left-of-center don't get it. Atheism is a belief system. Atheists*believe* that there is no God. They don't conduct scientific studies and present empirical evidence that there is no God, they just believe that there is no God. So it's a belief system, just like one where you believe there's a God.
.

First off, I hope it is clear I am not attacking anyone's beliefs. I am also not getting into the political matter of "separation of church and state" , nor "left or right", for being an atheist (or a deeply religious person) goes beyond that (many atheist in the right, plenty more religious people in the left). Past experiences have shown me how delicate this matter is, and I discuss it with nothing but the greatest respect.

I am only talking about the statement "atheism is a religion" wich I believe is incorrect. There is a universal scientific principle that states "the burden of proof falls in the people who are making the assertion". According to it, you don't have to look for proof that something does not exists, but rather, those who believe it does are the ones called to provide the proof.

Example: say I review HALO for pc, and my review is: IT SUCKS, don't buy it!. That kind of review is NOT accepted here, for the very good reason that, if I am going to say that about a game, and pretend that others listen to my advice and don't buy HALO, I should offer some "proof" of my statement in the form of arguments about the gameplay, graphics, music, story, or whatever.

A more radical example: If I say to you "an invisible elephant is actually in charge of producing THIEF III"... would you believe it? and if you don't, do YOU have to prove it or do I have to prove such a claim?

Atheists do not BELIEVE, in the religious sense of the word, that there is no God. (there IS a religious and also a NOT religious sense for the word "believe", just "believing" in something does not make it a religious belief) We just don't take for granted something that FOR US (relevant only for those of us that require it) there is no proof. Furthermore, religions ARE social institutions, and institutions exist in a very concrete way: normatives, laws, membership, codes of conduct, hierarchy, and a group of principles that are associated with their religious beliefs... etc. Atheism does not have any of the above.

Thanks for your comments, they provide a good excercise for the mind :)

[Aku]

First off, I hope it is clear I am not attacking anyone's beliefs. I am also not getting into the political matter of "separation of church and state" , nor "left or right", for being an atheist (or a deeply religious person) goes beyond that (many atheist in the right, plenty more religious people in the left). Past experiences have shown me how delicate this matter is, and I discuss it with nothing but the greatest respect.

I am only talking about the statement "atheism is a religion" wich I believe is incorrect. There is a universal scientific principle that states "the burden of proof falls in the people who are making the assertion". According to it, you don't have to look for proof that something does not exists, but rather, those who believe it does are the ones called to provide the proof.

Atheists do not BELIEVE, in the religious sense of the word, that there is no God. (there IS a religious and also a NOT religious sense for the word "believe", just "believing" in something does not make it a religious belief) We just don't take for granted something that FOR US (relevant only for those of us that require it) there is no proof. Furthermore, religions ARE social institutions, and institutions exist in a very concrete way: normatives, laws, membership, codes of conduct, hierarchy, and a group of principles that are associated with their religious beliefs... etc. Atheism does not have any of the above.

Thanks for your comments, they provide a good excercise for the mind :)

If you were arguing from the position of agnosticism (we cannot know the unknowable, or something like that), I could see your point. But an atheist is drawing a conclusion just like a believer in God is drawing a conclusion. And I think that the question of whether there was an intelligence behind the creation of the Universe is much more valid than whether or not invisible elephants run software companies. :) If you want to equate the argument to the scientific method, we don’t really know if the Universe was a random event or the result of some protagonist acting outside it, so it’s okay to speculate (after all, religion and philosophy aren’t hard-bound to rules the way science is). Scientists always talk about the Big Bang, but what about what went on before the Big Bang – before space and time began? Where did all that matter that went “bang” come from? We may never find out. Then there are the alternative views of who and what God is – like, perhaps there is no central intelligence – the Old Man in the Sky - but there is an intelligence in the Universe that is the collection of everything that has happened in the Universe…the so-called Cosmic Consciousness.

But my original crack about liberals mixing government with atheism was not about religion or philosophy, but about the context of belief systems and agendas in politics and government. And I think that there are those on the Left who push a Godless belief system on government that’s every bit as articulated as there are those on the Christian Right who promote Judeo-Christian values and beliefs (and agendas) in government. Just because someone on the Left doesn’t go to an atheist “church” on Sunday doesn’t make it any different, although people on the Left like to use that as a convenient argument (to which I say, Bull!).

Anyway, just wanted to clarify that I was really talking about religion and belief systems in the context of politics and government, not what you believe, or Joe Blow believes. But this has been fun. J

[Suicides-by-Steve]

Thief III is developed by elephants? I thought it was ghosts... something like that in any regards... ;)

[Suicides-by-Steve]

I find belief in a god (supreme being doling out life and death) as foreign as someone telling me that there is no other life in the universe... I find it hard to believe that someone can think that way! LOL Of course, I'm sure this statement sets me up for a double-standard if you care to over-analyze it. I think I have stated this before, but I don't see god as an entity, more as a "constant", a life-force (wellspring), that really has no conscience of itself or it's surroundings; basically a larger part of ecology. The ocean is a great example- we're as dependant upon the ocean, and life on our planet springing from it, as it's as dependant upon us for keeping it pure, and resource rich. We harmonize with each other hand-in hand, but since the ocean is so vast, we have very little impact upon it, as it would have upon us, if it dried up suddenly.

[Aku]

I find belief in a god (supreme being doling out life and death) as foreign as someone telling me that there is no other life in the universe... I find it hard to believe that someone can think that way! LOL

Ah, but there are a lot of people who find it impossible to believe that the vast complexity of creation is something that just sprang from random chance. I think the truth about the creation of the Universe goes way beyond simplistic arguments that there is a God, or that there isn't a God. I don't believe God exists in the primitive, chlidlike way depicted by the old religions (the Old Man in the Sky). But I think there is an intelligence to the Universe that we just don't understand because we can't get outside of the Universe to examine it the way we can study cells or ant colonies or whatever. We're stuck inside of it, and that changes our perspective of it. I think our understanding of the Universe will grow as we learn more artificial intelligence, nanotechnology, sub-atomic theory, and chaos theory. When we better understand the nature of intelligence and self-awareness, we'll start to really understand how this Universe came into being.

[Suicides-by-Steve]

We're stuck inside of it, and that changes our perspective of it. I think our understanding of the Universe will grow as we learn more artificial intelligence, nanotechnology, sub-atomic theory, and chaos theory. When we better understand the nature of intelligence and self-awareness, we'll start to really understand how this Universe came into being.

LOL Yes. I agree. But I still say that "god" doesn't know what it is.

[silversparrow]

->S-B-S (Necromancer class) gains +10 skill points for resurrecting year and a half old thread to full health (24hp) :p

[Aku]

Yeah, I was looking at all the posts in this "new" thread, then saw a bunch of my posts, and it was like WTF?!!

[Suicides-by-Steve]

Yeah, I was looking at all the posts in this "new" thread, then saw a bunch of my posts, and it was like WTF?!!

LOL It's funny that Chris was the most inflammatory out of all the posts. Heh. Anyways, I thought it was interesting seeing our posts from almost 2 years ago... Don't know where I pulled the OP topic from, but I still believe it whole-heartedly.

[Suicides-by-Steve]

Steve The Commie Canadian is half right. We'll be losing alot of petroleum based substances like plastic and uhh...styrofoam. But I'm sure that we'll eventually come up with an equally efficient substitute sometime in the near future.

Like you could put CD's on glass or crystal for instance...that technology is still a good decade off, but it's coming.

Okay... It's now the near future... LOL :p Where's the alternatives?

[Suicides-by-Steve]

->S-B-S (Necromancer class) gains +10 skill points for resurrecting year and a half old thread to full health (24hp) :p

LOL!! Funny guy. :)

[Suicides-by-Steve]

To finalize, I don't think my "godly" views have crystalized into a solid yet. I still think that we are all entities floating in a vast cosmic pea-soup, helping "god" know what it is. As we don't know what we are, neither does "god."

I move my Intelligence up from 15 to 16 with my +10 Skill Points.

LOL

[E.T.]

But I think there is an intelligence to the Universe that we just don't understand because we can't get outside of the Universe to examine it the way we can study cells or ant colonies or whatever. We're stuck inside of it, and that changes our perspective of it. I think our understanding of the Universe will grow as we learn more artificial intelligence, nanotechnology, sub-atomic theory, and chaos theory. When we better understand the nature of intelligence and self-awareness, we'll start to really understand how this Universe came into being.

...FRACTALS! The key to all our questions Grasshopper......Fractals!

[Aku]

complex, organized geometric patterns can be spawned from chaos.