No HDD in the Xbox2 rumor confirmed!

[sw33tjimmy]

http://news.teamxbox.com/content.php?id=5518

Looks like flash is the way of the future for Xbox2. Lots of people will be upset on this, but probably for no good reason. Flash memory could potentially be a much better solution for the Xbox2 than a HDD. It's much smaller and faster.

And not nearly as prone to the console droppage phenomenon.

[no.1gamer]

Don't worry Xbots once you're playing your Xbox Nexts you'll hardly even remember the silly hard drive gimick.

[mandark]

http://news.teamxbox.com/content.php?id=5518

Looks like flash is the way of the future for Xbox2. Lots of people will be upset on this, but probably for no good reason. Flash memory could potentially be a much better solution for the Xbox2 than a HDD. It's much smaller and faster.

And not nearly as prone to the console droppage phenomenon.

Here is the problem sw33tjimmy. Conside this scenario:

X-box next launch day at your local EB:

Uninformed Consumer: "Give me a Next-box"
Retailer: Here you go. That'll be $299.99 (assumed price, of course).
U Consumer: Cool.
Retailer: So, would you like to purchase some memory cards for that?
U Consumer: What for? The hard drive will do just fine for me.
Retailer: Uhh, that thing no longer have a hard drive.
U Consumer: What do you mean it doesn't have a hard drive?!
Retailer: Microsoft decided to pull it out to make money.
U Consumer: What!? Those greedy son's of #$%^&!
Retailer: So, are you gonna buy some memory cards or what?
U Consumer: Fine. How much are they?
Retailer: That'll be $60(again assumed) for 128mb.
U Consumer: (Stunned silence as he forks over the dough)

[Renzatic Gear]

...And not nearly as prone to the console droppage phenomenon.
Oh I'm sure I'd find some way to break it. Gimme a soldering gun, some anti-terrorist duct tape, and maybe a few glow in the dark condoms and I could kill off just about anything.

Hell, I lost my first GBA due to me going at it with a soldering iron..I'm sure an Xbox 2 won't be much different...just more fun since there's more space inside.

[Tappy_Tibbons]

Xbox Next will have internal flash.

[Renzatic Gear]

Yeah, we know, Tappy..it was kinda the main topic of this thread...

[Deathstroke]

Xbox Next will have internal flash.

Doesn't sound like it from what I read.

Edit: Oh, there's writing under the picture. Wouldya' lookitthat.

[T.Tashi]

Internal? Can you say "peripheral?" I doubt very seriously that M$ is gonna include a more expensive technology that doesn't even exist yet, and include it for the MSRP of a console.

[no.1gamer]

It's all just rumors at this point folks.

But by all means don't stop the acquisitions. It's much more fun that to just sit here and wait for the final word from M$. :)

[sw33tjimmy]

Internal? Can you say "peripheral?" I doubt very seriously that M$ is gonna include a more expensive technology that doesn't even exist yet, and include it for the MSRP of a console.

...why not? they did it with the first Xbox. (and I'm talking about the Nvidia GPU)

The fact of the matter is this; memory prices go up and down on a daily basis. I know this. I used to work for the largest RAM manufacturer in the USA. When a company can sell this stuff on a HUGE contract, the price per unit drops significantly. Just like buying anything bulk. Not only that, but in two years, prices will come down from where they are now. RAM that cost $100 last year now costs $60. That's just in one year. MS has longer than that.

[sw33tjimmy]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/03/04/news_6090737.html

Wow... MS just shot this interview down. They say this guy is "Talking over his head". It's still up for grabs until MS sheds some light on the subject for us. We may be waiting until E3 before we have any clue...

[joquito]

Now if Xbox Next has no HDD, how would Xbox Live updates be saved? How would downloadable content be saved? So everytime you want to play on live, one has to find a specific memory card, then add a second card in tandem if the extra levels that were saved on it. Thus needing multiple cards to play a particular game online. That would suck. It doesn't sound likely that this will happen. What's everyone elses thoughts.

[sw33tjimmy]

Now if Xbox Next has no HDD, how would Xbox Live updates be saved? How would downloadable content be saved? So everytime you want to play on live, one has to find a specific memory card, then add a second card in tandem if the extra levels that were saved on it. Thus needing multiple cards to play a particular game online. That would suck. It doesn't sound likely that this will happen. What's everyone elses thoughts.

Hard drives are not the only type of storage devices. This 'M-Systems' manufactures FLASH memory, which works much like RAM except it can keep it's memory stored without a constant supply of electricity.

Digital cameras use compact FLASH memory to store pictures on, and you can find these little sticks of 128M that plug into said cameras.

M-Systems will probably be building a 2Gig Flash drive to replace the 10 G hard drive of the current Xbox. That's my educated speculation. This will operate just like a hard disk except it will be smaller, faster, quieter, and not have as much storage capacity. If MS is smart, they will make it removable, too, so if your Xbox2 ever goes tits-up, you can pull out your Flash Drive and pop it in a new Xbox2; thus saving your live account and all your game saves.

[AOE Enforcer]

Hard drives are not the only type of storage devices. This 'M-Systems' manufactures FLASH memory, which works much like RAM except it can keep it's memory stored without a constant supply of electricity.

Digital cameras use compact FLASH memory to store pictures on, and you can find these little sticks of 128M that plug into said cameras.

M-Systems will probably be building a 2Gig Flash drive to replace the 10 G hard drive of the current Xbox. That's my educated speculation. This will operate just like a hard disk except it will be smaller, faster, quieter, and not have as much storage capacity. If MS is smart, they will make it removable, too, so if your Xbox2 ever goes tits-up, you can pull out your Flash Drive and pop it in a new Xbox2; thus saving your live account and all your game saves.

Even IF Microsoft includes flash memory in the system, it will be a pitifully small amount. Not enough to save songs for a custom soundtrack or to save downloadable content in any sort of meaningful fashion.

No, the plan is to make consumers buy memory cards! Hey, it worked for Sony and Nintendo, right? The problem is as Mandark pointed out-Flash memory cards aren't going to be cheap little gizmos that cost between $20-$25 each. These suckers are going to be expensive.

Even if they do allow you to save custom soundtracks and the like, how long is it going to take to fill these cards up? It seems to me that Microsoft is taking the concept of making people pay to save their games and uping the ante. Now, you will have to buy multiple memory cards to save everything that you accumulate for your Xbox 2. That just plain sucks.

It's a step backwards from what Microsoft gave consumers with the first Xbox and a way to milk the consumers for more money. All the while, Microsoft continues forward with its plans to turn the original Xbox into a media hub where you can download music, movies and other junk. No wonder Ed Fries left.

After I finish with Ninja Gaiden, I have a whopping two Xbox games left to buy this year that have been announced so far. I'm not willing to spend much more money on a system with such an uncertain future and the guarantee that when this Xbox I own craps out like my first did after only 18 months-the Xbox 2 won't even be backwards compatible. My entire Xbox library that I spent so much money on will be nothing but landfill candidates because I won't even have a system to play them on.

And please, the drastic change from Intel and nVidia processors to Apple and ATI processors guarantees that backwards compatibility will not happen. DirectX9 be damned, without a HDD, emulation isn't even a possibility. :mad:

[sw33tjimmy]

Hrm.. sorry, enforcer, but you are probably the last person I'd pay attention to in this discussion. Not because of console bias, but because you sound like you have no clue what you're talking about. M-systems currently produces 16M to 47G flash drives, so the technology is available. Who ever heard of nintendo or sony entering an agreement worth 'billions of dollars' to manufacture memory cards? You don't need flash to manufacture standard memory cards. Why would MS even be utilizing compact flash if all they wanted to do was create cards like current consoles use? You don't have that answer and neither do I, though going by my sources I'd say the flash-drive solution is definately what MS is working toward.

You may think emulation is impossible, but I see a connection between xbox2 using ibm chips and Microsoft's recent aquisition of Virtual PC. (which is the choice emulation software to get macs to run win32 apps). I personally don't care one way or another. if backwards compatability works, that's cool, if not; no big deal. I was concerned more over the storage situation and it looks like I don't have to worry about that anymore.

You're waiting on two more games this year for Xbox? well that's 2 more games than I'm waiting on for my GC. consider yourself lucky. Besides, as far as I can tell it sounds like xbox will have a decent year with Ninja Gaiden, Halo2, Fable, Tenchu 2, Splinter Cell: PT, Driv3r, Rallisport2, blah ble blah blah blah.

Oh well, don't take my word for it on the drive. Wait for this year's GDC and E3. I'm sure MS will be revealing everything there.

[T.Tashi]

...why not? they did it with the first Xbox. (and I'm talking about the Nvidia GPU)

The fact of the matter is this; memory prices go up and down on a daily basis. I know this. I used to work for the largest RAM manufacturer in the USA. When a company can sell this stuff on a HUGE contract, the price per unit drops significantly. Just like buying anything bulk. Not only that, but in two years, prices will come down from where they are now. RAM that cost $100 last year now costs $60. That's just in one year. MS has longer than that. Why not? M$ decided not to include a modem with Xbox. They saved $5.18 per unit. That was a huge deal and a huge savings and I guarantee you flash memory units will be more than $5.18. When you say bulk, remember we're talking potentially tens of millions of units, that may or may not meet profit margins. Businesses do something individuals really shouldn't do and that's count their money before they make it. M$ did that before and ended up dropping the price within 7 months of launch. Also, the manufacturer said the technology for Xbox2 doesn't exist yet. So I don't think you can count on this vaporware of memory dropping in price when it's not even on the market. So if M$ throws the memory in for free, count yourself extremely lucky, but after the financial thrashing they took this round, don't hold your breath.

BTW, Nvidia took Microsoft to court over payment for their chips. Don't know what became of it. I stopped following it.

[Thrower, WCG-Fanboy Flame]

It sucks and gets on my nerves but that's how it's going to be. They had the advantage of a free storage medium this round and still got whupped.

I just hope that the flash memory will be able to keep all the features of the HDD. As for backwards compatiability I think it has to happen for Xbox live. I know they aren't going to make two gaming networks and you mean to tell me that you don't think people will still be playing Halo 2 online by time the Nextbox launches? Not even MS is stupid enough to make you have to own 2 different consoles to play on there gaming network that they are charging you for.

[AOE Enforcer]

Hrm.. sorry, enforcer, but you are probably the last person I'd pay attention to in this discussion. Not because of console bias, but because you sound like you have no clue what you're talking about. M-systems currently produces 16M to 47G flash drives, so the technology is available. Who ever heard of nintendo or sony entering an agreement worth 'billions of dollars' to manufacture memory cards? You don't need flash to manufacture standard memory cards. Why would MS even be utilizing compact flash if all they wanted to do was create cards like current consoles use? You don't have that answer and neither do I, though going by my sources I'd say the flash-drive solution is definately what MS is working toward.

You may think emulation is impossible, but I see a connection between xbox2 using ibm chips and Microsoft's recent aquisition of Virtual PC. (which is the choice emulation software to get macs to run win32 apps). I personally don't care one way or another. if backwards compatability works, that's cool, if not; no big deal. I was concerned more over the storage situation and it looks like I don't have to worry about that anymore.

You're waiting on two more games this year for Xbox? well that's 2 more games than I'm waiting on for my GC. consider yourself lucky. Besides, as far as I can tell it sounds like xbox will have a decent year with Ninja Gaiden, Halo2, Fable, Tenchu 2, Splinter Cell: PT, Driv3r, Rallisport2, blah ble blah blah blah.

Oh well, don't take my word for it on the drive. Wait for this year's GDC and E3. I'm sure MS will be revealing everything there.

Your last sentence makes the most sense. I will wait to pass final judgement on whether to buy an Xbox2 or not after they officially release all the details.

Can you blame me for being so skeptical? My first Xbox that I lavished the highest-end surge supression, limited gameplay stints (under 2 hours before turning the machine off), perfectly clean and filtered air, a dust-free chasis and games free of fingerprints, dust & scratches died on me within 18 months time. My second Xbox has occassional hiccups after only probably 30 hours of playtime tops.

Being as it is that my experience with the Xbox thus far has proven the machine to be the least reliable system I have ever owned, backwards compatibility for me is a big issue.

I don't know why you felt the need to drag Gamecube into a discussion about the lack of a HDD in the Xbox 2, but whatever. I just got Ninja Gaiden the day it was released and am currently about 3 hours into it (I've had to work & sleep y'know). This game is everything I hoped it would be including being one challenging SOB. Halo 2 is a must-buy for me and Dead Or Alive Ultimate Collection is on my must-buy list. I've made no bones about being a big Tecmo and Sega fan and these two developers/producers were the push that got me to buy the Xbox. MechAssault 2? I would probably pick it up because the first is so good. Crimson Skies I will get again when it drops in price...I traded mine in for $30 credit at EB. Other than these games and whatever else Sega & Tecmo have up their sleeves, I'm not willing to drop a ton more money into a system with an uncertain future. Sorry.

As far as Gamecube goes (since you brought it up), Metal Gear Solid Twin Snakes, Metroid Prime 2, Zelda and Mario 128 round out everything I intend to buy for the system in 2004 thus far. But again as with the Xbox and PS2, games will be announced down the road that I will most likely bite on.

But back to the main subject which is the HDD or lack thereof, Microsoft's main reason for cutting the drive out was to save space and save money. I just can't see them being "good guys" and having built-in flash memory that will almost certainly cost more than a pitiful little 8 gig HDD.

A quick perusal of Pricewatch.com shows that I could go out and buy a 20 gig HDD for $25. Twenty-five bucks! How much could MS possibly be paying for these 8 gig Seagate's, especially when buying them by the millions?

Now on the other hand and still using Pricewatch.com, 2 gigs of Flash memory would cost me $518. FIVE HUNDRED-EIGHTEEN DOLLARS!

So please, don't insult my intelligence that the move to flash memory on Microsoft's part is nothing more than a way to force end users into buying expensive memory cards. Because that's all that this is. :mad:

[AOE Enforcer]

It sucks and gets on my nerves but that's how it's going to be. They had the advantage of a free storage medium this round and still got whupped.

I just hope that the flash memory will be able to keep all the features of the HDD. As for backwards compatiability I think it has to happen for Xbox live. I know they aren't going to make two gaming networks and you mean to tell me that you don't think people will still be playing Halo 2 online by time the Nextbox launches? Not even MS is stupid enough to make you have to own 2 different consoles to play on there gaming network that they are charging you for.

Well, they wouldn't need two gaming networks for two systems. The two can co-exist on one single network, but running through different servers. Who's to say that Microsoft will even support the Xbox Live games after the Xbox 2 comes out? In their bid for the bucks, they could simply release a slightly "upgraded" version of Halo 2 or a Halo "Ultimate Collection" ala DOA for the Xbox 2 while everyone suffers the agonizing wait for Halo 3.

But you are absolutely correct WCG...the flash memory is a way to replace the low-cost HDD's that lost Microsoft sales of memory cards with newfangled memory cards that will cost $50 or more. And that's being generous.

Sony is playing it smart and they will win again when the 256-bit systems (or whatever they call them) arrive. Sony waited over a year after the Dreamcast came out to put out the PS2. They saw what Sega did and then blew them out of the water with a more powerful machine that had more features and bells & whistles.

Now, Sony will wait and watch as Microsoft releases the Xbox 2. Wouldn't it be a crushing blow if Microsoft releases and you have to buy Flash memory cards to save games and such, then the PS3 comes out with a built-in HDD? :confused:

Sony has already ensured their victory the next round. They have consistently forced Microsoft to lose more & more money with the Xbox and they are getting ready to do so again with another PS2 price drop. Sony has kept the big-name franchises out of Microsoft's hands including Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Castlevania and so many more. The writing is already on the wall for the Nextbox or whatever they call it.

The support that they enjoy now from gamers will quickly turn into hatred when Xbox owners accustomed to free game saves and the benefits of the HDD have to buy memory cards for their next system. Backwards compatibility will be the final straw. Get ready to see an even worse thrashing than Microsoft has already gotten.

[sw33tjimmy]

I'd be much more apt to listen to Tashi because at least he comes off like he knows what's going on. Like I said, though, Tashi, I have heard through my sources that a Flash drive is confirmed. Maybe it will be optional/removable? who knows. Come check out my site some time: http://xbox2.gamegossip.com

The funny thing is that the anti-xbox crowd here is laughing and pointing fingers at us xbox owners because they think we have to buy memory cards. Even if that is true for the Xbox2 (which I do not believe), haven't they been buying memory cards this whole time? Won't they still be buying memory cards in 2005? Not only that, but if it wasn't for MS and the advanced Xbox, Sony and Nintendo would have nobody pushing them into the 21st century. Why would you want a console taking a step backwards? If there was any justice in this world, all three next gen platforms would have included hard drives... but I guess abstract thought like that is beyond some of the regulars here.

Xbox owners have waved the Hard Disk in other consoler's faces since the war began, but sorry; we have every right to. Especially when things like 'console droppage' come up. Um... can you think of a more pathetic excuse to not want a hard drive? Don't feel bad, I can't either. The HDD is one of the few things that MS did right. Don't think for a second that PS2 or GC owers wouldn't gloat if their console had an integrated HDD.

[Deathstroke]

Don't think for a second that PS2 or GC owers wouldn't gloat if their console had an integrated HDD.

Nah, I'd still be complaining about console droppage. :D

[sw33tjimmy]

I don't know why you felt the need to drag Gamecube into a discussion about the lack of a HDD in the Xbox 2, but whatever.

mainly I just didn't see anything on the radar for the GC, just like you didn't see anything on the radar for xbox. I didn't realize the next MP was coming out this year, nor zelda for that matter. coolio.

oh, and I just did a quick search on pricewatch, too.
Transcend 2.2GB Industrial Compact Flash Memory Card Type II Model TS2GCFHD

Retail Price? $181.00
Yes, very expensive right now, but no where near the $500 figure you found (???).

[sw33tjimmy]

Nah, I'd still be complaining about console droppage. :D
LMAO!! :D

[Bob-the-Fish]

The funny thing is that the anti-xbox crowd here is laughing and pointing fingers at us xbox owners because they think we have to buy memory cards. Even if that is true for the Xbox2 (which I do not believe), haven't they been buying memory cards this whole time? Won't they still be buying memory cards in 2005? Not only that, but if it wasn't for MS and the advanced Xbox, Sony and Nintendo would have nobody pushing them into the 21st century. Why would you want a console taking a step backwards? If there was any justice in this world, all three next gen platforms would have included hard drives... but I guess abstract thought like that is beyond some of the regulars here.

Xbox owners have waved the Hard Disk in other consoler's faces since the war began, but sorry; we have every right to. Especially when things like 'console droppage' come up. Um... can you think of a more pathetic excuse to not want a hard drive? Don't feel bad, I can't either. The HDD is one of the few things that MS did right. Don't think for a second that PS2 or GC owers wouldn't gloat if their console had an integrated HDD.

PS2 and GC gamers wouldn't gloat is they had an HDD because it wouldn't be an advantage. If all the systems had HDDs, you can go around saying mine has a HHD and yours doesn't. You're right, the Xbox crowd has been pretty proud of their little HDD and more then happy to make everyone aware of that fact. Now the backlash is kicking in because it appears the Next Box won't have one and the PS3 will.

I could care less myself. The HDD is nice but it isn't the most amazing thing in gaming. It's just one big memory card that comes with the system to me. As long as MS doesn't want $50 for whatever they come up with next, I won't mind the loss of the HDD. Unless it makes backwards compatability completely impossible and they stop supporting Live for the old system, then we have problems.

[sw33tjimmy]

PS2 and GC gamers wouldn't gloat is they had an HDD because it wouldn't be an advantage. If all the systems had HDDs, you can go around saying mine has a HHD and yours doesn't.

What I meant was if one of them had a HDD and the Xbox didn't, then there would be gloating going on still. but you probably realized that.

[Bob-the-Fish]

What I meant was if one of them had a HDD and the Xbox didn't, then there would be gloating going on still. but you probably realized that.

Yeah I knew what you meant.

Actually, I doubt we'd be hearing much about HDDs since the Xbox would have gone down the drain in 2001 without one. So we'd have no one to "debate" it with anyway ;)

[T.Tashi]

I'd be much more apt to listen to Tashi because at least he comes off like he knows what's going on. Like I said, though, Tashi, I have heard through my sources that a Flash drive is confirmed. Maybe it will be optional/removable? who knows. Come check out my site some time: http://xbox2.gamegossip.com

The funny thing is that the anti-xbox crowd here is laughing and pointing fingers at us xbox owners because they think we have to buy memory cards. Even if that is true for the Xbox2 (which I do not believe), haven't they been buying memory cards this whole time? Won't they still be buying memory cards in 2005? Not only that, but if it wasn't for MS and the advanced Xbox, Sony and Nintendo would have nobody pushing them into the 21st century. Why would you want a console taking a step backwards? If there was any justice in this world, all three next gen platforms would have included hard drives... but I guess abstract thought like that is beyond some of the regulars here.

Xbox owners have waved the Hard Disk in other consoler's faces since the war began, but sorry; we have every right to. Especially when things like 'console droppage' come up. Um... can you think of a more pathetic excuse to not want a hard drive? Don't feel bad, I can't either. The HDD is one of the few things that MS did right. Don't think for a second that PS2 or GC owers wouldn't gloat if their console had an integrated HDD.
Why thank ya thank ya. I studied some business and economics and I thought it sucked. I just not ruthless enough to really appreciate how ruthless it is , but I can see a company's point of view, and if I ran M$ I'd be trying to sell ya those flash sticks. :D But otherwise I'm all for the technology. It's something that's been seen in sci fi for years (memory crystals, etc) and I've love for it to be widespread enough to drop in price, cause zip disks, and even CDRs feel like obsolete mediums. The current generation of memory cards certainly are.

I've seen your site btw. Very slick and nice layout. It's one of the better designed game sites I've seen. So do you run the whole gamegossip site or just the xbox page?

[Gamer88]

sw33tjimmy
The funny thing is that the anti-xbox crowd here is laughing and pointing fingers at us xbox owners because they think we have to buy memory cards. Even if that is true for the Xbox2 (which I do not believe), haven't they been buying memory cards this whole time? Won't they still be buying memory cards in 2005? Not only that, but if it wasn't for MS and the advanced Xbox, Sony and Nintendo would have nobody pushing them into the 21st century. Why would you want a console taking a step backwards? If there was any justice in this world, all three next gen platforms would have included hard drives... but I guess abstract thought like that is beyond some of the regulars here.

Yes we have been buying memory cards the whole time but thats not why we are laughing and pointing fingers. We are ok with memory cards. You are not. You brag about your hardrive and we find it funny that the next box may not have it. It brings you off that high horse that you xbox owners have been riding for so long.

sw33tjimmy
Xbox owners have waved the Hard Disk in other consoler's faces since the war began, but sorry; we have every right to. Especially when things like 'console droppage' come up. Um... can you think of a more pathetic excuse to not want a hard drive? Don't feel bad, I can't either. The HDD is one of the few things that MS did right. Don't think for a second that PS2 or GC owers wouldn't gloat if their console had an integrated HDD.
Yes you have every right to wave the hard disk into other consoler's faces, becuase of that we also have a right to wave the fact that next box may not have a hardrive into you x-bot's faces. If Ps2 or Gamecube owners started out with a harddrive I doubt xbox would have lasted.

[joquito]

Hard drives are not the only type of storage devices. This 'M-Systems' manufactures FLASH memory, which works much like RAM except it can keep it's memory stored without a constant supply of electricity.

Digital cameras use compact FLASH memory to store pictures on, and you can find these little sticks of 128M that plug into said cameras.

M-Systems will probably be building a 2Gig Flash drive to replace the 10 G hard drive of the current Xbox. That's my educated speculation. This will operate just like a hard disk except it will be smaller, faster, quieter, and not have as much storage capacity. If MS is smart, they will make it removable, too, so if your Xbox2 ever goes tits-up, you can pull out your Flash Drive and pop it in a new Xbox2; thus saving your live account and all your game saves.

IF MS goes with Flash memory it won't be built in or else it would cost the same as a HDD. Most on the thread are proposing that the flash memory would be similar to the memory cards of today. I just don't see how flash memory would enable people to utilize Xbox Live as we do today. I have Live itself, Saved characters/ cars, Extra content (level, characters,etc), and frequent updates. I don't picture people fitting all this on one single gig flash card. Flash Cards larger than that will not be cheap enough next year to make it viable. Again if you need multiple cards to hold everything, then what happens when extra content and saved characters happen to be on different cards?

[sw33tjimmy]

Tashi,

i only maintain the xbox2 portion of the site. glad you like it; I didn't really do much aside from the master chief logo at the top and help on the color scheme (though the orange, imo, is hideous and I did everything I could to get away from it)

Joquito
yes, the price point is really the only thing that worries me. 2 gigs would be plenty of space though. I've got so much crap on my xbox's 8 (or is it 10?) gig HDD and I haven't even broken that 50,000 block limit. Well, like I've said before, let's wait to pass judgement until after GDC/e3 this year.

ninja gaiden kicks ass, btw. :)

[Nissian X]

Tashi,

i only maintain the xbox2 portion of the site. glad you like it; I didn't really do much aside from the master chief logo at the top and help on the color scheme (though the orange, imo, is hideous and I did everything I could to get away from it)

Joquito
yes, the price point is really the only thing that worries me. 2 gigs would be plenty of space though. I've got so much crap on my xbox's 8 (or is it 10?) gig HDD and I haven't even broken that 50,000 block limit. Well, like I've said before, let's wait to pass judgement until after GDC/e3 this year.

ninja gaiden kicks ass, btw. :)
It be 8 Gig HDD for Xbox.
And yes, I also haven't broken that 50,000 block limit, and I've got all my games, with all the save and 3 or 4 soundtracks, soon to be five, when Cypress Hill releases thier new ablum, YAAA!;)

I really would prefer them to have a built in memory though, I hope they stick with HDD. If they don't, well I guess you can say for this subject anyway, everything depends on everything. I don't want these little flimsy cards that'll snap when you insert them into the console.

[AOE The Apocalypse]

I've got so much crap on my xbox's 8 (or is it 10?) gig HDD and I haven't even broken that 50,000 block limit. I have a question does anyone here know anyone that has seen the 50,000 block limit drop I wonder if the damn thing might not be a fake.

[Daman_He_Hate_Me]

This flash device is not going to connect to the controller, it will somehow either be internal, or connect to the mainboard via an interface on the console. Either way, this thing will connect to the mainboards system bus. It will be exponentially faster than hardrive access, and for performance it will be much better than a hardrive.

My guess is this, the XBOX2 will come with a default flash card that will probably be either 256MB or 512MB. Then they will sell larger one's to replace or upgrade the one that came with the system, and the largest one will probably 1.5GB. They will probably have 256, 512, 1G and 1.5G flash drives, devices, cards, or whatever you want to call them.

This company has an exclusive arrangement with MS to build a product that doesn't exists, this is likely a volume deal, which means it won't be based on the prices of consumer electronics flash devices. I would guess the 1.5GB drive, wouldn't even cost more than 1 video game, so maybe 50-59$, the smallers one's maybe $25. Just my guess.

As far as impact, this is actually not anything to laugh about for PS3 and GC2. XBOX already pushed the limits with a hardrive. Now they will be pushing performance even further with flash memory, now the system will be able to access cached data within nanoseconds, as opposed to milliseconds. And you guys are laughing? Stupid.

Obviously, the sacrifice is possibly music, but we will have to see. The other sacrifice is possibly having to buy a larger capacity flash drive. I don't want to have to do that, but if I can buy one flash drive and get 1GB of space, and be able to use LIVE and save music. I'll do it. Its better than buy 3 or 4 low capacity slow memory cards. Obviously, no one wants to buy peripherals, but MS was basically gambling on the XBOX and it failed them, consumers showed the industry they are still willing to shell out money for memory cards, instead of having built-in more useful storage. So MS had to adopt to what consumers wanted, this is a slap to existing XBOX owners, because we may have to buy an accessory, something we aren't use to. But, even MS can't just GIVE away hardrives for long, the XBOX and PS2 have always been the same price, and the GC is cheaper, but only the XBOX had a hardrive. So it and more was basically free.

For PS3 and GC, this still ups the ante. They have to come back with either a HD, which will still be slower than flash, or introduce their own flash memory. Or they can do what they've continued to do, which is force gamers to buy low capacity memory cards. Knowing Sony and Nintendo, I'd bet one or both will still force you to buy memory cards. I don't think they will do an included HD, because of size(they like things tiny in Japan), and I don't think they will do flash because of costs and losts revenue from memory cards. So MS is kinda going halfway with the consumer, let's see what the others do.

[sw33tjimmy]

I have a question does anyone here know anyone that has seen the 50,000 block limit drop I wonder if the damn thing might not be a fake.

yup. it's fake all right. Microsoft and the top secret society of Free Masons that actually run the united states from under Denver International Airport got together and decided: "hey, let's make everyone think they have over 50,000 blocks of memory left on their xboxes, regardless of how much space there actually is left!

But now that we've stumbled onto their evil plan, beware of the men in completely silent, black helicopters. They will certainly come and take us away for spreading the truth.

Oh, and Daman, you summed up all of my theories perfectly there. High five, brah.

[AOE The Apocalypse]

yup. it's fake all right. Microsoft and the top secret society of Free Masons that actually run the united states from under Denver International Airport got together and decided: "hey, let's make everyone think they have over 50,000 blocks of memory left on their xboxes, regardless of how much space there actually is left!

But now that we've stumbled onto their evil plan, beware of the men in completely silent, black helicopters. They will certainly come and take us away for spreading the truth.

Oh, and Daman, you summed up all of my theories perfectly there. High five, brah.
What I think is really scary is that I don't kow anyone that has broken the 50,000 limit. When Enforcers Xbox crapped out on him he had to have at least a hundred games saved on his system plus downloads and god only knows how many cd's downloaded and the damn thing never whent down. I have a 40 gig HDD on my computer and have downloaded a few hundred cd's and when I check the memory remain on my PC I do notice a change after I download 20 or 30 cd's. I am not relly worried about the black Helicopters anymore. I live in Missouri where it is now legal to cary a gun on myself or in my car. If I see one I can take pot shots at them while speeding away in my car All the while screaming Screw you Bill gates I hope you burn in Hell.LOL!!!!

[sw33tjimmy]

I am not relly worried about the black Helicopters anymore. I live in Missouri where it is now legal to cary a gun on myself or in my car. If I see one I can take pot shots at them while speeding away in my car All the while screaming Screw you Bill gates I hope you burn in Hell.LOL!!!!

well put. :)

[thug]

Everyone here's saying the reason for removing the HDD on Xbox 2 is cost...I thought I heard it was to prevent hacking. I mean there are gamers who replaced the 8GB HDD with a 160 GB HDD and hacked the Xbox so all they have to do is rent a game, download it onto the HDD, and return it. Microsoft's return on that...$0.00. I know hacking is a problem with the PS2 as well, but it just looks like it's so easy and convenient with the Xbox.

I think MS knows how much current Xbox owners like the internal memory and I don't think they'll go away from it. If they did go totally away from internal memory it would be interesting how they handle Live, downloadable content, custom soundtracks, etc.

[AOE The Apocalypse]

Everyone here's saying the reason for removing the HDD on Xbox 2 is cost...I thought I heard it was to prevent hacking. I mean there are gamers who replaced the 8GB HDD with a 160 GB HDD and hacked the Xbox so all they have to do is rent a game, download it onto the HDD, and return it. Microsoft's return on that...$0.00. I know hacking is a problem with the PS2 as well, but it just looks like it's so easy and convenient with the Xbox.I think in all reality we all know that the real reason for cutting the HDD is for the money. Hacking is not that wide of a problem that it can't be dealt with. Losing money is a major problem though. I will not be happy if there is no HDD in the XB2 but it makes sense for a company that is suffering continuos loss. If they are concerned about losing money on the HDD they should just sell it as an add on and not do away with it completeley.
I think they could do like GC and make it like the GB player. Make it an add on so you could play your old Xbox games on the new system. You will need it just to save your old games. If they completely leave it out or don't give the consumer the option if they want it they are going to hurt themselves.


I think MS knows how much current Xbox owners like the internal memory and I don't think they'll go away from it. If they did go totally away from internal memory it would be interesting how they handle Live, downloadable content, custom soundtracks, etc.I think if MS really cared about the consumer there would not even be discussion about the HDD not being in the XB2. They would come out and shoot down the rumors. But with them showing interest in developing Memory cards or internal flash memory they are showing they are going to do what they want and not what the consumer wants. I really hope that MS gets there act together soon and just tells us what we want to know.
We should get all the info we want soon so we can all stop pulling out our hair.http://www.activexbox.com/xbox/comments.asp?HeadlineIndex=22886&Group=1
We should be hearing about info from the Game Developers Conferrence around the 22nd thru the 26th according to this site I found.I think we will all feel better once we know the truth.

[Daman_He_Hate_Me]

AOE apoclalype, you aren't even an XBOX consumer, you don't even like or use the XBX, so why do you care so much? Just curious, it seems strange that the guys who hated the XBOX now all of a sudden care about the guts of the next system.

[AOE The Apocalypse]

AOE apoclalype, you aren't even an XBOX consumer, you don't even like or use the XBX, so why do you care so much? Just curious, it seems strange that the guys who hated the XBOX now all of a sudden care about the guts of the next system.

You have a valid question and I will respond. I don't hate the Xbox And if you have been reading anything I have said before you will notice that. I want to buy an Xbox and if the XB2 is worth it I want the system too. I have been in financial trouble over the last few years and could not afford to invest a-lot of money on systems and such, now I have everything worked out and can afford to buy what I want but it looks like everything is going down the crapper. I have been serious about buying an Xbox for the last year or so and have been looking forward to buying XB2 but everything I want it for looks like it will be taken away.Backwards compatibility,HDD,downloadable soundtracks and not having to buy memory cards.

I am an avid gamer and love to sit back and chill and enjoy a good game. I do not want Xbox to fold right after I get into the thing, that would really suck. I believe I have a right to be concerned about where I spend my money,I don't want to waste it. If everything turns out alright and the Xbox 2 is as good as the present system or better I will buy it. If they start taking things away I don't know if it will be worth it.

I can deal with buying memory cards or sticks hell I am use to it with the PS but I am worried that your normal everyday consumer is going to get pissed off and not buy the next system. If Joe Blow public doesn't like the changes then say Bye-Bye to Xbox. Because the biggest gaming consumer are kids parents. If they start having to fork over alot of extra dough for something they will be very picky of what they are buying.I don't see an advertising campaign woking for the Xbox2 when it says:

New Xbox2
No Hard Drive installed But hey we have created
New memory cards (sold seperately) Only between
$30.00 - $60.00 .Custom sound tracks are a thing of
the past just whistle up your favorite tune while you drive
you will never know the difference.
No you can't play your Xbox games
on the new system just keep out your old Xbox and
continue to play. We also changed the buttons on the controller
becuse we know how much you hated those black and
white buttons. so yes you will have to buy new controllers.
We are Micro-soft we are really concened about our pockets not yours

I don't know about you but Think advertising the next system is going to be a pain in the so called Pittutty if they have to explain to Joe Blow consumer why they are taking all there favorite things away and want more money from them. I am a consumer and I know I won't be happy. As I am sure you won't be when it hits you in the pocket or Xbox folds down the road from continuos loss. I don't want it to happen but it could. I think they should improve on the next box not go backwards.

[Daman_He_Hate_Me]

Well, Apocalypse, it is your right to be concerned about your money. But I don't think it is right for you to really comment on what goes or stays in XBOX2, since you haven't supported the first one. If more people had of supported the XBOX, then it would have justified the inclusion of everything in the first one. But people didn't, people supported a system with less functionality for the same price. So what does that tell Microsoft? That consumers don't care about these extra features, that consumers are willing to accept a model that includes memory cards, etc.

As far as backward compatiability, you can say goodbye to that. I highly highly doubt that will be supported on the next console. They are changing the architecture and that definitely means the machine language or microcode is going to change. They can do some kind of emulation, but what is the long-term benefit? People can play old games for a few months, if they are trimming manufacturing costs, then this is gone. And I, for one, could careless about making the console more expensive to include this feature.

As far as whether there is a disk or not, that isn't the question. The question is whether there will be some kind of mass internal storage or whether there will be memory cards. I think there will be internal storage, eliminating the need for memory cards. Is it possible this internal memory will be upgradeable, to the point a consumer could buy enough to allow audio ripping? That is also a possiblity. So it is possible they could cancel the disk, and have internal storage that is smaller than 8GB, maybe even smaller than 2 or 1GB, but still include all the functionality of XBOX, plus faster performance associated with accessing a cache that is flash memory as opposed to a disk drive.

[Bob-the-Fish]

Well, Apocalypse, it is your right to be concerned about your money. But I don't think it is right for you to really comment on what goes or stays in XBOX2, since you haven't supported the first one.

Actually, Apocalypse is exactly the type of person we should be listening to about the NextBox. See, he is on the fence about the current box and those are the people the companies are trying to get. Most of the Xbots are going to buy the next system no matter what is or isn't inside it. All the MS haters are never going to buy it, so it's people like Apoc that will tip the scales and make the Nextbox a success or a total failure. If you can't bring in new blood, your product is doomed. Like in elections here in the US, there is really only about 5% of the voting population that hasn't made up it's mind about who to vote for months before the elections so all the campaigning is just to get that 5%.

[Daman_He_Hate_Me]

Actually, Apocalypse is exactly the type of person we should be listening to about the NextBox. See, he is on the fence about the current box and those are the people the companies are trying to get. Most of the Xbots are going to buy the next system no matter what is or isn't inside it. All the MS haters are never going to buy it, so it's people like Apoc that will tip the scales and make the Nextbox a success or a total failure. If you can't bring in new blood, your product is doomed. Like in elections here in the US, there is really only about 5% of the voting population that hasn't made up it's mind about who to vote for months before the elections so all the campaigning is just to get that 5%.

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. Microsoft's primary concern must be satisfying current XBOX owners, to ensure that they do come back and buy the next system. Not modifying things to mimic other systems in hopes of gaining their fanbase, cause they may not and they may lose their own in the process. You say current XBOTS will buy the new system no matter what. Current XBOTS want to buy the next system, but there is a reason why we bought the first, and if too much is sacrificed I can see scenarios where they don't get a lot of second time customers.

Here is the deal, if Microsoft goes away from having primary internal large capacity memory, then they will have big problems with current users. They can axe the hardrive, but they better have an alternative that precludes the necesity to use low capacity memory cards. So make your changes, but keep the functionality. Another idea floating around is to connect to a PC somehow in order to use XBOX LIVE, now this hasn't come from MS. But i'm sure MS knows, the XBOX2 must have native support for LIVE, no questions. The other stuff, i'm sure is a no brainer, HDTV support, dolby5.1 support, 4 controller ports.

The market didn't shun XBOX because of lack of features, the market chose PS2 because XBOX was an unknown, and PS2 had loyal fans. So if you keep the functionality of the XBOX2, near the same now that consumers are familiar with XBOX, more will be likely to buy. The key here is MS wants to be able to operate in second place, they know first place might be out of the question. If they can break-even or make a small profit from the hardware, then they can operate successfully from a second place position. That is why they are not trying to do a make or break console, with everything inside again.

I'm already pissed about the loss of the black and white buttons. People may laugh, but these buttons were highly functional and cool for turning off/on flashlights, throwing grenades, honking horns, it freed up the main buttons for more primary actions than you would typically see in some games.

[Bob-the-Fish]

Microsoft's primary concern must be satisfying current XBOX owners, to ensure that they do come back and buy the next system. Not modifying things to mimic other systems in hopes of gaining their fanbase, cause they may not and they may lose their own in the process. You say current XBOTS will buy the new system no matter what. Current XBOTS want to buy the next system, but there is a reason why we bought the first, and if too much is sacrificed I can see scenarios where they don't get a lot of second time customers.

Here is the deal, if Microsoft goes away from having primary internal large capacity memory, then they will have big problems with current users. They can axe the hardrive, but they better have an alternative that precludes the necesity to use low capacity memory cards. So make your changes, but keep the functionality. Another idea floating around is to connect to a PC somehow in order to use XBOX LIVE, now this hasn't come from MS. But i'm sure MS knows, the XBOX2 must have native support for LIVE, no questions. The other stuff, i'm sure is a no brainer, HDTV support, dolby5.1 support, 4 controller ports.

The market didn't shun XBOX because of lack of features, the market chose PS2 because XBOX was an unknown, and PS2 had loyal fans. So if you keep the functionality of the XBOX2, near the same now that consumers are familiar with XBOX, more will be likely to buy. The key here is MS wants to be able to operate in second place, they know first place might be out of the question. If they can break-even or make a small profit from the hardware, then they can operate successfully from a second place position. That is why they are not trying to do a make or break console, with everything inside again.

I'm already pissed about the loss of the black and white buttons. People may laugh, but these buttons were highly functional and cool for turning off/on flashlights, throwing grenades, honking horns, it freed up the main buttons for more primary actions than you would typically see in some games.

MS does have to focus on keeping the fans they already have and I think they're aware of that. But that's only part of the next console war. Do you think Sony came into this round thinking they wanted to just keep all the original PSX owners happy? Sure they wanted them back, but they also wanted more. So they put in DVD players and expansion slots for new hardware to entice those people who still thought video games were for ten year olds. That DVD player thing was a kicker and I think it really helped make gaming more mainstream.

I look at the next round with MS the same way. They're in the market now. They've had their debut and got some people to stop hating everything that says Microsoft on it. Now they need to get some new people, convince a few of those doubters that the Black Box is just as good as Sony's machine. That's just as important for a business as keeping thier fans happy. Everything has die-hard fans and fair-weather fans and I agree MS should try to keep them happy, but it's the undecideds that MS really needs to go after.

[Daman_He_Hate_Me]

"Now they need to get some new people, convince a few of those doubters that the Black Box is just as good as Sony's machine. " Bob-the-fish

See, I don't understand this comment. I would think any informed consumer should now know why XBOX is better than PS2. Now, obviously, most consumers aren't not "informed" so how do go about convincing ignorant consumers. Now, i'm the first to say MS has done a horrible job marketing XBOX, even to this day. When I look at these FF commercials advertising the $100 hardrive, Sony makes it seems cool to pay $100 for a hardrive. MS can't even find a way to let people know XBOX has one built-in. They do a horrible job advertising LIVE, all they say is its good to play together, what is that? They do awful advertising their games. So I don't think MS needs to make a console that's better than Sony's, they already did that, what they need to do is get the word out better.

Obviously MS wants to make their next console better than the PS3, which is why they are trying to wait on the final specs, to adjust depending on what Sony does. I don't think MS will ever ship a unit with less functionality than going forward than a Sony console. But what difference does it make if they can't market it?

Ironically, the power of the XBOX may overcome their poor marketing department. In these last 2 years for XBOX and PS2, XBOX is going to be releasing some incredible games, must have games, truly can not be done on any other system games. And maybe even the "dumb" consumer will finally understand "okay, now I understand what XBOX is all about", if they get that awareness in the last few years, then the onus will be on Sony to prove why PS3 will be better than X2.

[AOE The Apocalypse]

Actually, Apocalypse is exactly the type of person we should be listening to about the NextBox. See, he is on the fence about the current box and those are the people the companies are trying to get. Most of the Xbots are going to buy the next system no matter what is or isn't inside it. All the MS haters are never going to buy it, so it's people like Apoc that will tip the scales and make the Nextbox a success or a total failure. If you can't bring in new blood, your product is doomed. Like in elections here in the US, there is really only about 5% of the voting population that hasn't made up it's mind about who to vote for months before the elections so all the campaigning is just to get that 5%.
Thank you for the comment Bob. I have been on a tippiing scale for a long time about a purchase of an Xbox but I also have the same issue with the GC. I talk about games and systems to alot of people I know and they tend to listen. I myself can say that if Xbox2 is worth buying and is worth the money even if you have to buy memory I will suggest it to freinds and they will suggest it to freinds and so on and so on. This is my opinion of how systems sell word of mouth.That is what first drew me to the system Enforcer bought one and other people were telling me what was so great about the Xbox it made me think man I need one. Then I started hearing negative issues about systems breaking and freezing and it made me start looking at the system more closely. Chances are I will buy an Xbox no matter what but I feel if I keep waiting it will be so cheap It will be an awesome bargain.

That was something else that kept me from buying a Xbox continuos price drops. The system has dropped in price so much from the beggining that there was Know reason for me to go out and spend the money when 6 months or so after I bought one it would probably drop in price so I should just wait. I think yhat hurt Xbox in the long run because once the system started dropping the price so often people got use to it. I just want a little possitive news every once in awhile and maybe it will change my mind to buy the Nextbox.