Xbox 2 to use Flash Memory? LMAO!

[AOE Enforcer]

Check it!

"Microsoft has signed up flash memory manufacturer M-Systems to develop a high capacity memory unit/storage device for Xbox 2, further hinting towards the idea that a built-in hard drive may be dropped.

M-Systems, best know for devices like pen and keyring-based USB flash drives, has stated that it is developing and entirely new product - something that will vastly surpass the capacity of the current Xbox’s 8 MB memory unit. Take into consideration Microsoft’s previous indications about how it's considering scrapping the hard drive, as well as the fact that solid-state storage technology is just around the corner for the PC, and it does all kind of point towards the idea of one huge-yet-tiny portable storage device.

Current keyrings and pens can store up to half a gigabyte of data and it’s certain that both companies will be aiming for a much higher target capacity than this. Subsequently, the need for a built-in hard drive becomes less and less. 1+ GB is easily enough to store plenty of game saves, downloaded content and other media, the only foreseeable issue would be keeping the device within the consumer’s price range.

Details will undoubtedly emerge in due course - we'll bring you them as soon as we can."

More than 8 megs? Sounds like Microsoft is going to be hitting you boys up for virtual memory cards now! Yeah, MS is loving you guys! LOL!

[Tappy_Tibbons]

ya, and you Ps2 suckers will still buy your dumb memory cards so who cares?

[AOE The Apocalypse]

ya, and you Ps2 suckers will still buy your dumb memory cards so who cares?
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! Why don't you just say NANABOOBOO and get over it. As it looks we are going to get screwed on the next Xbox and basically it doesn't matter to you what is wrong with you. I have been deciding whether to buy the Xbox and it looks like it will not even be worth the effort to spend the money on it. Well there goes the whole backward compatibillity issue so the way it looks I might as well wait till the system is 50 bucks in the bargain bin and buy one. I guess that won't be so bad because I am pretty sure the XB2 will be in the bin a couple of months later. Oh well it saves me money toward buying GC and PS2 games and all those memory cards us PS2 junkies love so much.LOL!!!!

[Renzatic Gear]

I'm not even supposed to be here today! MY LOVE FOR YOU IS TICKING CLOCK BERZERKER!

So uh...between Enforcer and Apocalypse...which one of you was the old guy in the bathroom?

[Daman_He_Hate_Me]

I posted here warning MS to include a hardrive in the NextBOX. At that time I was of the opinion a lack of HD would be a performance and functional mistake. Now that more details are coming out, I'm not so sure. Here is the deal, what AOE is not pointing out. We aren't talking about 8meg here, 8 meg is what MS uses for current memory cards. Another article said the memory would likely be 512meg or possibly larger. It said the product the company is making for XBOXNEXT doesn't exist. They said at 512Meg to 1Gig, you would be able to save hundreds of games, it is also possible there could be some amount used as a cache. Also, you maybe able to buy larger flash cards, so if it comes with 512MEG, maybe you could by a 2GB? The bottomline is custom soundtracks could be the only sacrifice. So I think MS may eliminate the HD, but the flash memory would be faster and more reliabe. At least they realize if they do skip out on the hardrive, they need an acceptible solution, they just can't rip it out and say use memory cards, I think they know that. And I think the issue here may not just be $, I think these custom flash units probably aren't that much cheaper than a HD, but the cost in warranty repairs, the size of the unit, packaging, everything becomes smaller and cheaper. This is interesting and we will see what they do, whatever it is it better be good.
And I better not have to buy memory cards, I can live without custom soundtracks cause I only use that in racing games, but I won't buy a console if I gotta have a gazillion memory cards or if there is no sizable cache to prevent long load times.

[Renzatic Gear]

But do you have any idea how much 512 meg to a gig of flash memory costs? If MS were losing money on the Xbox before then they'd definately be losing a ton more on the Nextbox if they were to include that much flash memory.

Looking at the Xbox 2 specs I don't see how they could possibly release it at a competitive price without losing literally hundreds of dollars per system sold. I hope they expect their fanbase to buy at least 15 first party games cuz that might be what it takes for them to break even.

[AOE The Apocalypse]

Looking at the Xbox 2 specs I don't see how they could possibly release it at a competitive price without losing literally hundreds of dollars per system sold. I hope they expect their fanbase to buy at least 15 first party games cuz that might be what it takes for them to break even.[/QUOTE]
Hell with the way MS has been going it looks like they are more worried about hardware than games. I remember sometime back good ole BILL talking about the XB and he seemed more concened about Hardware to milk the fans for more money. 15 first party games will be pretty damn hard to come up with considering they can't even come up with any decent first party games for XB1. With info like this being released It sounds like XB has said hell with it, we give up, lets get the hell out of the consule bussiness. I can deal with buying memory cards hell I am use to it . The only problem I have with them doing it for the XB it seems like a huge step backwards. IMO: I think MS should continue to support the first XB for a few more years. Leave the price steady for awhile and stop trying to compete with PS and maybe they can afford to support the next system.

[Twelve]

The Xbox HDD was one of the few things the thing had going for it. This is baaaaaaaaaaad news.


12

[Gadfly2317]

But do you have any idea how much 512 meg to a gig of flash memory costs? If MS were losing money on the Xbox before then they'd definately be losing a ton more on the Nextbox if they were to include that much flash memory.

Looking at the Xbox 2 specs I don't see how they could possibly release it at a competitive price without losing literally hundreds of dollars per system sold. I hope they expect their fanbase to buy at least 15 first party games cuz that might be what it takes for them to break even.


Hey, if MS wants to continue to subsidize a console for gamers, more power to 'em. I think we are a worthy charity.

[The Buzz]

The Xbox HDD was one of the few things the thing had going for it. This is baaaaaaaaaaad news.


12

Only bad news to people like you.

[Darwin]

Check it!

Subsequently, the need for a built-in hard drive becomes less and less. 1+ GB is easily enough to store plenty of game saves, downloaded content and other media ...


Did you miss this sentence here? Doesn't seem to me like there's anything to laugh at.

My complaint about the loss of a HD was the loss of caching and game saves. However, if the flash memory is going to be very large, it could actually replace and be potentially better than a HD. I'm no computer expert, but I would assume that data can be read and written to memory chips faster than a HD.

[The Buzz]

Did you miss this sentence here? Doesn't seem to me like there's anything to laugh at.

My complaint about the loss of a HD was the loss of caching and game saves. However, if the flash memory is going to be very large, it could actually replace and be potentially better than a HD. I'm no computer expert, but I would assume that data can be read and written to memory chips faster than a HD.

You have to remember Darwin...according to many of the not so "informed" posters around here...MS is out to SCREW everyone...something Sony and Nintendo would NEVER do...

[mandark]

Did you miss this sentence here? Doesn't seem to me like there's anything to laugh at.

My complaint about the loss of a HD was the loss of caching and game saves. However, if the flash memory is going to be very large, it could actually replace and be potentially better than a HD. I'm no computer expert, but I would assume that data can be read and written to memory chips faster than a HD.

I do believe AOE Enforcer's main point is this quote here:

"the only foreseeable issue would be keeping the device within the consumer’s price range."

Point is X-box gamers will soon be eating their own words regarding memory cards since MS is now going to "force" you people to buy cards to save your games. Notice the words "consumer's price range.

Another point is how much are you people willing to pay for these cards. 256 mb Flash cards nowadays costs around $70 for third party brands and $70 for 128 mb from major brand names. How much are you people willing to pay for 500 mb cards? Heck, how much are the 1 GB cards going to be?

Buzz, unless MS starts giving these cards away for free or as part of a bundle you can't blame people from thinking that MS is out to SCREW everyone.

[Thrower, WCG-Fanboy Flame]

I remember a couple years ago on this very forums all the speculation about how the Xbox was going to cost $500 andthe harddrives would be crashing (admittely the thomspon disc drives are crap) and yadda yadda yadda. History repeats itself.

MS signed a contract with a company to make a new type of flash I'm hoping that this is just for the mem cards instead of replacing the hdd (rumor has it that the flash mem might be internal). The xbox currently has mem cards so hopefully this is just the tech that's going to be for the mem cards next gen.

Also flash memory is entirely to expensive to include in the system and to sell them as mem cards they will still be even more expensive to the consumer. Plus flash mem degrades a lot faster as well. As for what Daman and some of the others would say next gen the consoles so be so fast that hopefully good programming would limit load times and with processors all going over a gig that should negate the need for cache of games and allow them to read just as fast off the disc.

But without a HD I don't see how backwards compatiablility will be possible because a lot of xbox games cache to the HDD. Overall I'm not really impressed about anything I've heard about xbox next so far It seems like it's just going to be a souped up powermac. Sony seems to really be innovating more with the technology but again the PS3 will suffer the same developmental issues the PS2 suffered new tech with no current software out for developers to use to make the games with so what tools will be available probably won't be the best simply because developers haven't had the time to perfect the tools through actual development of games. Where as the next xbox is just using an updated windows kernel. This could put the PS3 at a serious disadvantage with launch games because the learning curve won't be nearly as steep with the next xbox as with the PS3. (I went off on a whole other tangent!)

Bottom line E3 will settle the hdd issue once and for all.

[The Buzz]

I do believe AOE Enforcer's main point is this quote here:

"the only foreseeable issue would be keeping the device within the consumer’s price range."

Point is X-box gamers will soon be eating their own words regarding memory cards since MS is now going to "force" you people to buy cards to save your games. Notice the words "consumer's price range.

Another point is how much are you people willing to pay for these cards. 256 mb Flash cards nowadays costs around $70 for third party brands and $70 for 128 mb from major brand names. How much are you people willing to pay for 500 mb cards? Heck, how much are the 1 GB cards going to be?

Buzz, unless MS starts giving these cards away for free or as part of a bundle you can't blame people from thinking that MS is out to SCREW everyone.

We should hold our judgement until the finished product hits the streets.

You know as well as I this is a business and ALL the console makers are in the same boat. They're all scrambing to have all the right answers...to all the questions...that gamers might have between now and launch day 2005. Not getting it right the next time would be very, very costly and could very well spell certain doom for those that don't.

[AOE The Apocalypse]

You have to remember Darwin...according to many of the not so "informed" posters around here...MS is out to SCREW everyone...something Sony and Nintendo would NEVER do...
Okay since you stirred up the honey pot about being screwed I want some examples of how exactly how we have been screwed by Sony and Nintendo. I really can't think of a time when they have screwed us but if you know something we don't be a good little boy and share.I think its pretty straight forward they say this is what we are giving you deal with it and its a quality product worth the money. I don't feel like we are getting screwed. MS is deffinetly doing some indian giving though.

[The Buzz]

Okay since you stirred up the honey pot about being screwed I want some examples of how exactly how we have been screwed by Sony and Nintendo. I really can't think of a time when they have screwed us but if you know something we don't be a good little boy and share.I think its pretty straight forward they say this is what we are giving you deal with it and its a quality product worth the money. I don't feel like we are getting screwed. MS is deffinetly doing some indian giving though.

You don't know what Sony and Nintendo are planning on giving us now do you? You sure are quick to judge MS on speculation though. I'll reserve my judgement for the final products.

I think MS gave gamers the most "bang for their buck" the last time around and I believe they'll try and do it again. Who knows? I'm happy with my PS2 and have been filling my PS2 library with lots of used goodies over the last few months. I've been spending more time "gaming" with my Xbox lately and I'm looking forward to more of the same. You can't get on board with MS then don't. You think anything you say really matters to anyone around here? I mean besides yourself. Maybe it would...if you had something constructive to say once in a while.

ALL the console makers are in it for the money and will do whatever they can to give the most for the least.

[folken001]

You don't know what Sony and Nintendo are planning on giving us now do you? You sure are quick to judge MS on speculation though. I'll reserve my judgement for the final products.

I think MS gave gamers the most "bang for their buck" the last time around and I believe they'll try and do it again. Who knows? I'm happy with my PS2 and have been filling my PS2 library with lots of used goodies over the last few months. I've been spending more time "gaming" with my Xbox lately and I'm looking forward to more of the same. You can't get on board with MS then don't. You think anything you say really matters to anyone around here? I mean besides yourself. Maybe it would...if you had something constructive to say once in a while.

ALL the console makers are in it for the money and will do whatever they can to give the most for the least.
That is mainly because xbots like to pimp their xboxes because they have a HDD. They continuously sing how great it is to have a hdd and PS2 and GC are horse waste for not having one. And what happens now?

[Daman_He_Hate_Me]

AOE, I think it should be AOI, the I is for idiot, if you don't know how Sony and Nintendo have screwed you. You are laughing about XBOX2 users potentially having no hardrive, when you don't have one now fool, and when you are about to spend $100 for one, that supports no games. And you, seriously, don't know how Sony has screwed you.

The thing here is no one knows what the final specs for XBOX2 will be. But obviously MS is planning on changing the core of the unit, and that may involve removal of a hardrive. I am still against it, I would like to see the HD. However, as long as Microsoft gives us a similar option, then i'll be happy. I just don't see MS making the XBOX2 less functional than the current. This new deal with this flash manufacturer is not for memory cards, rather it is for a component of the system, so like I said I don't think we will have to buy memory cards.

The other thing is the cost, the xD flash memory cards are license products, I think Olympus and another company are paid royalties for each one, that increases the price. The unit being built for xbox is probably priced on a volume deal, for this company this is an unforseen revenue stream that has the potential to be lucrative, i'm sure they cut MS a sweet deal. If XBOX2 sells 20 million units over its life, and this company can make 5 dollars over material and labor costs, that will be a great deal for them. Right now you can buy a USB flash memory device with 512MB the size of a keychain for $99. XBOX2 won't be released for 2 years, by then flash memory prices will be 1/4th or less what they are now. I'd bet this deal will end up being like $20-30 a unit for MS, and they maybe able to include 1G by then. Also, manufacturing prices will be less, no cable to run, its a solid state device that will just be soldered on the mainboard.

Again, I would guess some of that Gig will be used for cache the rest for saved games. I think the only thing we may lose is audio-ripping, and if the flash memory is upgradeable, the consumer maybe able to purchase a larger capacity unit that may support audio ripping also. If you think about it, 8Gig is way too much. I have so many saved games, and about 40 songs on my hardrive, and it still reports +50,000 blocks. I think MS is looking at alternatives to keep the size, manufacturing, and overall costs down, as long as the functionality and performance is the same, it will acceptable to me. I'll miss the audio cause I was rockin my music today playing PGR2, but this is what happens when consumers settle for less(ps2, gc) that tells the industry consumers don't want or care about extra features.

As far as 15 exclusive franchises for XBOX, I think that is easily achievable with these franchises as a start:

Halo
Project Gotham
Rallisport Challenge
DeadOrAlive(damn near first party)
Ninja Gaiden(ditto)
Perfect Dark(Rare)
Kameo(could be good)
Crimson Skies
Midtown Madness
True Fantasy Online(coming this summer)
Brute Force(a lot of room for improvement, including LIVE support)
Oddworld(i think a sequel is already in the works)
Fable(which is published my MS)
Sudeki(ditto)
MechAssault

There you have it, 15 hard-hitting franchises, that cover everything from rpgs to racers. All of these games are really good franchises that can grow and live for years. I didn't even include a lot of other franchises like NFL Fever, Top-spin, Inside Drive. I think this is a pretty damn good list, and I really don't see 15 exclusive franchises on GameCube or PS2 that are this good. Not saying they don't exists, i'm just not familiar enough with the PS2 or GC lineup to think of 15 good exclusive franchises.

[AOE Enforcer]

You don't know what Sony and Nintendo are planning on giving us now do you? You sure are quick to judge MS on speculation though. I'll reserve my judgement for the final products.

I think MS gave gamers the most "bang for their buck" the last time around and I believe they'll try and do it again. Who knows? I'm happy with my PS2 and have been filling my PS2 library with lots of used goodies over the last few months. I've been spending more time "gaming" with my Xbox lately and I'm looking forward to more of the same. You can't get on board with MS then don't. You think anything you say really matters to anyone around here? I mean besides yourself. Maybe it would...if you had something constructive to say once in a while.

ALL the console makers are in it for the money and will do whatever they can to give the most for the least.

I'm not saying that Sony & Nintendo are good guys, out to help us out. All three manufacturers are in this to make a buck. My problem is this:

A big selling point for me and I am sure many others was the built-in HDD. Faster load times due to memory caching, custom soundtracks and never having to buy a memory card. Now me move on to Xbox 2 and Microsoft is basically saying "Don't count on it." as far as backwards compatibility goes. No built-in HDD is what they are leaning to because they can now A) Charge for memory cards and B) save money manufacturing the system. What happens to custom soundtracks now?

Microsoft is basically taking a step backwards by doing this. They will be forcing consumers into spending money to buy memory cards which they didn't do the last time around. That's the problem-making a system that isn't as tech-savy as the last. :(

[AOE Enforcer]

I'm not even supposed to be here today! MY LOVE FOR YOU IS TICKING CLOCK BERZERKER!

So uh...between Enforcer and Apocalypse...which one of you was the old guy in the bathroom?

Nah...we are just the hetero-lifemates Jay & Silent Bob. But I think....either Daman or "Game" would be the Golgothan. LOL! Say, would you like a chocolate covered pretzel? Gotta love Brodie-man. Nootchie-nootchies.

"Fifteen bucks little man, put that $$!^ in my hand. If the money doesn't show, then you owe me owe me oh. My jungle love! Oh-e, oh-e, oh! I think I wanna know ya, know ya!"


We're just a couple of "burn boys" y'know? I wonder how the ceremony went for Tappy and "Game" at the Unitarian Church. Was it Star-Wars themed? LMAO!

[Gamer88]

Daman_He_Hate_Me
As far as 15 exclusive franchises for XBOX, I think that is easily achievable with these franchises as a start:

Halo
Project Gotham
Rallisport Challenge
DeadOrAlive(damn near first party)
Ninja Gaiden(ditto)
Perfect Dark(Rare)
Kameo(could be good)
Crimson Skies
Midtown Madness
True Fantasy Online(coming this summer)
Brute Force(a lot of room for improvement, including LIVE support)
Oddworld(i think a sequel is already in the works)
Fable(which is published my MS)
Sudeki(ditto)
MechAssault

There you have it, 15 hard-hitting franchises, that cover everything from rpgs to racers. All of these games are really good franchises that can grow and live for years. I didn't even include a lot of other franchises like NFL Fever, Top-spin, Inside Drive. I think this is a pretty damn good list, and I really don't see 15 exclusive franchises on GameCube or PS2 that are this good. Not saying they don't exists, i'm just not familiar enough with the PS2 or GC lineup to think of 15 good exclusive franchises.

Be glad to for you.

Zelda Windwaker
Zelda Four Swords
Super Mario Sunshine
Metriod Prime
Burnout )(I think its exclusive)(
Eternal Darkness
Skies of Arcadia
Super Monkey Ball
Resident Evil
Bomberman
Mario Party
Mario Kart
Pikmin
Ikaruga
F-Zero
Lost Kingdoms
SSBM
Harvest Moon
FFCC
Tales Of Symphonia
Baten Kaitos
Too Human )(Silicon Knights.....mebbe)(
Custom Robo....

Xbox definatly beats GC in Exclusive Racers but I bet not in exclusives, And what the heck Halo isn't exlusive, Its for PC as well

[Deathstroke]

I doubt Tecmo's franchises will remain exclusive on X-box. Itagaki may like the way his games look on X-box now but next time when all three consoles are practically similar to each other, you're gonna be seeing a lot of Tecmo ports.

[Gadfly2317]

Okay since you stirred up the honey pot about being screwed I want some examples of how exactly how we have been screwed by Sony and Nintendo. I really can't think of a time when they have screwed us but if you know something we don't be a good little boy and share.I think its pretty straight forward they say this is what we are giving you deal with it and its a quality product worth the money. I don't feel like we are getting screwed. MS is deffinetly doing some indian giving though.

They screwed the French, and some other Europeans, in a regional price fixing scheme years ago. But hey, since many of us here are Americans, and the French are now the enemies of all true Flag/Bush/SUV loving Americans, I guess that makes Nintendo our ALLIES. Long live Nintendo!!!!!

[Daman_He_Hate_Me]

Daman_He_Hate_Me


Be glad to for you.

Zelda Windwaker
Zelda Four Swords
Super Mario Sunshine
Metriod Prime
Burnout )(I think its exclusive)(
Eternal Darkness
Skies of Arcadia
Super Monkey Ball
Resident Evil
Bomberman
Mario Party
Mario Kart
Pikmin
Ikaruga
F-Zero
Lost Kingdoms
SSBM
Harvest Moon
FFCC
Tales Of Symphonia
Baten Kaitos
Too Human )(Silicon Knights.....mebbe)(
Custom Robo....

Xbox definatly beats GC in Exclusive Racers but I bet not in exclusives, And what the heck Halo isn't exlusive, Its for PC as well

I'm not going to "go off" on your list, if you like those games and franchises, then you would be better served sticking to nintendo. I don't I prefer the MS franchises and many more of the exclusive 3rd party games on XBOX, which is why i'll be sticking with MS. And this is why the next wave of consoles will probably have the same market share for the most part.

[Daman_He_Hate_Me]

I doubt Tecmo's franchises will remain exclusive on X-box. Itagaki may like the way his games look on X-box now but next time when all three consoles are practically similar to each other, you're gonna be seeing a lot of Tecmo ports.

well anything is possible.

[Gamer88]

......I dislike Microsoft. The Xbox is doing very well especially considering its microsoft's first console. Its a decent console with a lot of good games. But then agian sony and nintendo also have good games. I don't hate xbox, Its a good idea, I just don't like microsoft. I would rather see either nintendo or sony monopilize the industry then Microsoft. Xbox is similar to nintendo in the way that it is establishing a lot of loyal fans. I would have to say that nintendo and xbox have more loyal fans then Ps2. Besides all that I like Nintendo's gaming ideas the best. I dislike online gaming on consoles, Why? Because its so much supierior on a computer plus a price diffrence. I don't want a computer I want a console. Xbox is the closest console to a PC and the way things are going there will be no point to consoles anymore because they will just be PC's.

[Daman_He_Hate_Me]

......I dislike Microsoft. The Xbox is doing very well especially considering its microsoft's first console. Its a decent console with a lot of good games. But then agian sony and nintendo also have good games. I don't hate xbox, Its a good idea, I just don't like microsoft. I would rather see either nintendo or sony monopilize the industry then Microsoft. Xbox is similar to nintendo in the way that it is establishing a lot of loyal fans. I would have to say that nintendo and xbox have more loyal fans then Ps2. Besides all that I like Nintendo's gaming ideas the best. I dislike online gaming on consoles, Why? Because its so much supierior on a computer plus a price diffrence. I don't want a computer I want a console. Xbox is the closest console to a PC and the way things are going there will be no point to consoles anymore because they will just be PC's.

Ohhhh, let's not go there again with the XBOX is a PC debate. That has been done soooo many times around here before. You would have done fine just by stopping after you said you don't like Microsoft. Whether you believe it or not, that dislike has biased you from properly evaluating XBOX. My thing is, why would you hate Microsoft? You aren't forced to buy their products or even use them. Why hate Microsoft? I can understand hating EXXON, or a defense contractor, or a gun manufacturer, or a liquor company, but why a software company? Why don't you evaluate products, and not the company that makes them. People think I hate Sony, but they have no clue how many Sony products I have in my home, and love. Big ticket products that cost 3 times as much as an XBOX or PS2. So i've supported Sony big time, I just don't support their console because it is a poor product, completely different from the quality and convenience usually always present in Sony products.
And the list goes on, people think I love Microsoft, some think I work for Microsoft. I'm actually kicking myself in the head for buying my last Windows based laptop. I should have bought a MAC because I don't game any more on the PC. Gaming(and maybe business apps) are the only reason to use Windows. So now that I don't game any on PCs any more, I probably will be buying MACs in a few years. But, people who complain about Windows, yet continue to use it, just kill me. And people who hate a good product, because they somehow hate the company kill me too. But, whatever....do you man, do you.

[Gamer88]

Daman_He_Hate_Me
You would have done fine just by stopping after you said you don't like Microsoft.

Or I would have did fine not posting at all, Or I would have did fine posting even more, Actually I did fine just posting what I did.

Daman_He_Hate_Me
Whether you believe it or not, that dislike has biased you from properly evaluating XBOX. My thing is, why would you hate Microsoft?You aren't forced to buy their products or even use them. Why hate Microsoft? I can understand hating EXXON, or a defense contractor, or a gun manufacturer, or a liquor company, but why a software company? Why don't you evaluate products, and not the company that makes them. People think I hate Sony, but they have no clue how many Sony products I have in my home, and love. Big ticket products that cost 3 times as much as an XBOX or PS2. So i've supported Sony big time, I just don't support their console because it is a poor product, completely different from the quality and convenience usually always present in Sony products.

It is not what they are but what they could become that I fear. Even though the others have the same capability Xbox has the most potential to do so. You probably do not see it that way but then agian two people can look at the same thing and see it diffrently.

Daman_He_Hate_Me

And the list goes on, people think I love Microsoft, some think I work for Microsoft. I'm actually kicking myself in the head for buying my last Windows based laptop. I should have bought a MAC because I don't game any more on the PC. Gaming(and maybe business apps) are the only reason to use Windows. So now that I don't game any on PCs any more, I probably will be buying MACs in a few years. But, people who complain about Windows, yet continue to use it, just kill me. And people who hate a good product, because they somehow hate the company kill me too. But, whatever....do you man, do you.

I said before the Xbox itself is a decent console. I have enjoyed the xbox before and many of its games.

[Daman_He_Hate_Me]

So how does this whole monolopy theory work anyway? Microsoft will hypnotize gamers control the whole gaming industry, and then force people to play shoddy buggy crappy games?

Windows became a monolopy for one simple reason, it was the best operating system around for business and personal use. There were plenty of competitors, IBM, Apple, and countless others that went by the wayside. But consumers chose Windows, Windows didn't choose consumers. And why is Windows a buggy piece of crap? Because it does what everyone wants it to do. This is what happens when consumers get their wish, you get products like Windows. Backwards compatiablity, check, you can still run DOS products on Windows XP. Support for every hardware device under the sun, CHECK, try opening up a MAC and buying off the shelf parts for an upgrade, you will be very limited and the cost will probably make you hit the floor. Cheap prices, hey before Linux, believe it or not Windows was the cheapest or one of the cheapest brand name OS out there. Try buying a commercial license for Unix. So Windows tries to be all and do all for all, and for the most part it succeeds, but when it glitches it can be ugly, expensive, and time consuming, and madly frustrating, and a company that tries to do too much for consumers is eyed as evil. It is easy now to run out and buy a MAC, because of firewire and USB, and other technologies, MACs can work with a lot of hardware, their convenient and easy to use. But, 5 or worse 10 years ago, MACS just weren't a viable option. Microsoft isn't trying to monopolize the gaming industry? The question is, how about Sony? How much of a dent would it had been if GTA3 was released before or at the same time on XBOX, that would have killed Sony. But monopolistic practices saved Sony's bacon, ditto with FinalFantasy, and countless other examples. How about Sony and their pricing, they know they have a near monopoly and are aware their product is outdated compared to the competition, but because they have a basic monopoly they don't have to lower prices. Now they are using their muscle to move into handhelds, watch out Nintendo. And then with their VAIO they are planning on taking over the whole PC industry.....now of course i'm joking. But you would agree that Sony and any other company would operate just the same as microsoft, if they had the market power. Look at PS2, Sony isn't your friend. They will give as little as possilbe to the consumer, if the consumer accepts it.

[Renzatic Gear]

Actually MS is trying to throw alot of their backwards compatibility out the door. Longhorn is supposedly gonna nix all software designed for the 9x platforms and of course XP can't really do DOS all that well at all...

MS can be pretty weird about things just like Sony (as you stated)..

[T.Tashi]

Actually MS is trying to throw alot of their backwards compatibility out the door. Longhorn is supposedly gonna nix all software designed for the 9x platforms and of course XP can't really do DOS all that well at all...

MS can be pretty weird about things just like Sony (as you stated)..
I read that you can buy Longhorn in a Malaysian mall for the equivalent of $1.60 :D

[Gamer88]

So how does this whole monolopy theory work anyway? Microsoft will hypnotize gamers control the whole gaming industry, and then force people to play shoddy buggy crappy games?

No, They will raise the prices for everything

[Daman_He_Hate_Me]

I read that you can buy Longhorn in a Malaysian mall for the equivalent of $1.60 :D

Malaysian women are FINE as hell. What this has to do with the topic at hand is beyond me. But they make our American women look like dogs...

[Twelve]

Only bad news to people like you.

That's what I get for trying to be non-biased. Alright.

This is goooooooooooooood news!

( I hope I fit your image of me now)


12

["The Game"Evolution]

......I dislike Microsoft. The Xbox is doing very well especially considering its microsoft's first console. Its a decent console with a lot of good games. But then agian sony and nintendo also have good games. I don't hate xbox, Its a good idea, I just don't like microsoft. I would rather see either nintendo or sony monopilize the industry then Microsoft. Xbox is similar to nintendo in the way that it is establishing a lot of loyal fans. I would have to say that nintendo and xbox have more loyal fans then Ps2. Besides all that I like Nintendo's gaming ideas the best. I dislike online gaming on consoles, Why? Because its so much supierior on a computer plus a price diffrence. I don't want a computer I want a console. Xbox is the closest console to a PC and the way things are going there will be no point to consoles anymore because they will just be PC's.

Guys like you accuse the Xbox of being more like a PC than a game console,but yet wasnt it the PS2 that at one point in time had an LCD screen,a keyboard,and mouse? Think about that for a moment.

Now its like this:PC gaming is cheaper than console gaming.But you know what? Big deal.Console gaming is way more exciting.The bottom line here is consoles are becoming so advanced PC gaming will become a thing of the past just like Arcades have become.

At this point just about anything you can get from PC gaming you can get from videogame consoles now.When PS3,Xbox2,and the next GC arrives these next gen consoles will be taking one more leap towards the enevitable:Replacing PC gaming.I know thats something you dont even want to imagine but its true.So at this point in time I wouldnt even bring up the PC issue anymore.Because videogame consoles indeed has everything PC gaming currently has to offer.Thats not a fabrication,thats a fact.

[The Buzz]

I'm not saying that Sony & Nintendo are good guys, out to help us out. All three manufacturers are in this to make a buck. My problem is this:

A big selling point for me and I am sure many others was the built-in HDD. Faster load times due to memory caching, custom soundtracks and never having to buy a memory card. Now me move on to Xbox 2 and Microsoft is basically saying "Don't count on it." as far as backwards compatibility goes. No built-in HDD is what they are leaning to because they can now A) Charge for memory cards and B) save money manufacturing the system. What happens to custom soundtracks now?

Microsoft is basically taking a step backwards by doing this. They will be forcing consumers into spending money to buy memory cards which they didn't do the last time around. That's the problem-making a system that isn't as tech-savy as the last. :(

When you put it that way...I can see why you have concerns. I'm sure there's plenty of gamers with similar feelings. I just say wait until the final product is brought to market. MS is trying to learn on the fly and time will tell how much they've learned. Remember, and I hate to bring this up again but, MS must cater to the "mainstream" first because that's where the vast majority of the gaming dollars are coming from. They can't make everyone happy. The bottom line is they have to make money the next time around and will do what they have to to appeal to the MOST gamers they can. If that means changing the core design and functions of Xbox they'll do it.

Everything MS incorporated into Xbox DIDN'T make it THE machine to own for millions of gamers who opted for PS2 and GC. So changing the machine to cater more to the masses is what they're looking to do. Good or bad for us...that's business. Maybe the "flash" memory they develop, if they do, will be the best thing ever for a console. Maybe XboxNext WILL be backwards compatible in one way or another...maybe not. Guess we'll have to just wait and see. Sony has a lot of work to do too and if Nintendo goes ahead with a replacement for GC they must deal with the same issues.

My feelings right now... PS2 and Xbox fill my gaming needs quite nicely and have seen and will continue to see substantial gaming time in my home. Both are great consoles in their own ways and if the next generation from MS and Sony are this good or better their products will continue to please me for years to come.

[The Buzz]

That's what I get for trying to be non-biased. Alright.

This is goooooooooooooood news!

( I hope I fit your image of me now)


12

You can feel that way...I was just making an observation...

[AOE The Apocalypse]

You can't get on board with MS then don't. You think anything you say really matters to anyone around here? I mean besides yourself. Maybe it would...if you had something constructive to say once in a while.ALL the console makers are in it for the money and will do whatever they can to give the most for the least.
OHH that hurt Oh well!! Hey I like to ask questions and get honest answer's. I read VGR to become better informed because so far I have been impressed with this site. Most people on this site are fairly intelligent and are very strong in there convictions Thats cool because I don't like idiots. I am not happy with screwy news I hear which I should be. I am a concerned gamer I don't want to buy something and then end up getting screwed in the long run. hey I never said that I did not want to get on the MS bus I just need a good push in that direction.You brought up the issue of getting screwed and with an out answering the question you are skirting the issue. I asked a question just give me a honest reason and I will be happy. I agree with you about the money issue but I think PR tends to be more important to make a system a success. If everyone is happy with a system they won't care what the cost is. By the way I really have not felt that I have ever been screwed buy PS or nintendo and in the future I expect the same from them. Xbox is begining to slide downhill and they definitely need to do some damage control.

[The Buzz]

OHH that hurt Oh well!! Hey I like to ask questions and get honest answer's. I read VGR to become better informed because so far I have been impressed with this site. Most people on this site are fairly intelligent and are very strong in there convictions Thats cool because I don't like idiots. I am not happy with screwy news I hear which I should be. I am a concerned gamer I don't want to buy something and then end up getting screwed in the long run. hey I never said that I did not want to get on the MS bus I just need a good push in that direction.You brought up the issue of getting screwed and with an out answering the question you are skirting the issue. I asked a question just give me a honest reason and I will be happy. I agree with you about the money issue but I think PR tends to be more important to make a system a success. If everyone is happy with a system they won't care what the cost is. By the way I really have not felt that I have ever been screwed buy PS or nintendo and in the future I expect the same from them. Xbox is begining to slide downhill and they definitely need to do some damage control.

I don't like idiotic post's either. You feel Sony and Nintendo haven't screwed you? Then you're one of the lucky ones...

Some ways I think Sony screwed us PS2er's...having to buy memory cards...having to buy a hard drive...multi tap needed...cheap design/build of the PS2 console unit itself are a few ways. As far as GC...mini discs...no network plan...poor third party support from Nintendo to developers. As far as Xbox...having to buy a remote for DVD playback is about the only Xbox screw job I can see...

Maybe these won't be issues next time...but this time to me they are.

[Gamer88]

"The Game" Evolution
Guys like you accuse the Xbox of being more like a PC than a game console,but yet wasnt it the PS2 that at one point in time had an LCD screen,a keyboard,and mouse? Think about that for a moment.

Thought about it. Key words in that are "at one point in time"

"The Game" Evolution
Now its like this:PC gaming is cheaper than console gaming.But you know what? Big deal.Console gaming is way more exciting.The bottom line here is consoles are becoming so advanced PC gaming will become a thing of the past just like Arcades have become

Yes it is a big deal game. Console game is not always way more exciting, You can get just about supierior everything on a PC plus you can play roms on your PC and of course better graphics, More strategy games. Free online play. Who knows mebbe PC gaming will make console gaming a thing of the past.Not as likely, but you know, just food for thought.

"The Game" Evolution
At this point just about anything you can get from PC gaming you can get from videogame consoles now.When PS3,Xbox2,and the next GC arrives these next gen consoles will be taking one more leap towards the enevitable:Replacing PC gaming.I know thats something you dont even want to imagine but its true.So at this point in time I wouldnt even bring up the PC issue anymore.Because videogame consoles indeed has everything PC gaming currently has to offer.Thats not a fabrication,thats a fact.

Your definatly wrong there. Man where do you get these facts? Its like you self appointed yourself to make up all these facts and you just assume everyone else agrees. Consoles don't much more if more then PC gaming does expecially in the strategy genre. PC gaming offers free online play and way more online games.It is something at once I would dread but the more I think of it the better it sounds.

[Daman_He_Hate_Me]

PC gaming is shrinking, whether people want to accept the fact or not. Of the less than $8 billion in games sales, a little less than $2 billion was from PC gaming, the other $6billion was from consoles. Now $2 billion is nothing to sneeze at, but it is dwarfed by console gaming. And, as consoles become more powerful, as console online gaming grows, pc gaming will continue to get dwarfed by consoles. I wouldn't go so far as to say PC gaming is going to disappear. Major retailers are eliminating or reducing PC game shelf space, this was in the media weeks ago.
Now, will console gaming, ever be more powerful than PC gaming? Maybe, but it doesn't have to. Because the console is a closed architecture, developers don't have all the issues of working with a PC, and can squeeze more performance. Who knows, with the next consoles, they may actually exceed pc performance for a short period of time. XBOX2 may have 6 G5 chips, I would think if they launched in 2005, that would make the XBOX2 more powerful in the short-run than 95% of any home users PCs.
As far as consoles being able to do everything pc games can do, wrong. Both have their strengths, at this point I would say consoles do more well, than PC.
FPS - equal. This really depends on whether you like kybd/mouse or controllers
RTS - PC rules, no competition. But this genre is dying fast to me
3rd person action - dominated by the consoles.
RPGs - Almost equal, but I give the nod to PC. When more online rpgs for consoles show up. Consoles may take over.
Racers - Equal. But only on the strength of XBOX LIVE. LIVE racing is as close if not better than online PC racing. At the moment there is more variety of online racing on PCs. But when consoles get online F1, Indy, and Nascar games, its over they win. Sorry people, but offline racers don't mean squat anymore.
Horror - Consoles
Fighting - Consoles
Platformers - Consoles
Flight Sims - PC

ONLINE In general - Well, this really boils down to XBOX LIVE versus the Internet(pc). Take it from someone who has done both. LIVE kills pc gaming online. It is just far more convenient, less lag, excellent VOICE, buddy lists, lobbies. And the price is only problem for those on the edge of poverty, $6 a month, people shut up about this. Lunch for one day, costs more than $6 a month.

[Renzatic Gear]

Yeah, but Live is missing one important figure in the battle for best multiplayer aspect. Mods. Until MS decides to start releasing SDK's for their games, it'll never be able to truly touch the online PC scene.

Course voice chat, buddy lists, and whatnot is nice..but it's already offered on the PC, just more narrow in focus. While Live encompasses more and allows you to talk to people playing other games, it's still not much different than what you get from Unreal Tournaments multiplayer setup. And of course all the more recent games, like UT2k4, are coming standard with built in voice chat.

Also, your argument about the ongoing profit shrinkage is flawed at best. The PC scene might've made "only" 2 billion last year, but does that mean that the Xbox made 6 billion? No, of course not...chances are pretty good that the PS2 accounts for a much larger chunk of that profit margin than either the Box or the GC, so all that means is that the PC scene is still thriving alongside the consoles. Remember, it's not PC vs. all consoles..it's PC vs. Xbox vs. GC vs. PS2.

And of course the consoles are hardly equal in the FPS scene..it's still a computer mainstay.

[Daman_He_Hate_Me]

Yeah, but Live is missing one important figure in the battle for best multiplayer aspect. Mods. Until MS decides to start releasing SDK's for their games, it'll never be able to truly touch the online PC scene.

Course voice chat, buddy lists, and whatnot is nice..but it's already offered on the PC, just more narrow in focus. While Live encompasses more and allows you to talk to people playing other games, it's still not much different than what you get from Unreal Tournaments multiplayer setup. And of course all the more recent games, like UT2k4, are coming standard with built in voice chat.

Also, your argument about the ongoing profit shrinkage is flawed at best. The PC scene might've made "only" 2 billion last year, but does that mean that the Xbox made 6 billion? No, of course not...chances are pretty good that the PS2 accounts for a much larger chunk of that profit margin than either the Box or the GC, so all that means is that the PC scene is still thriving alongside the consoles. Remember, it's not PC vs. all consoles..it's PC vs. Xbox vs. GC vs. PS2.

And of course the consoles are hardly equal in the FPS scene..it's still a computer mainstay.

I think MODS are important to those who enjoy MODS. I don't, never did. Most games offer enough replay value, especially if they are online, that I don't have time to play MODS. I never did. The PC will always be strong at certain things, MODS is one, and for those who enjoy MODS(creating&playing) the PC will always be king to them. So yeah, the PC definitely scores there, and also in additional content. For example, R63's mission pack is coming next week, LIVE won't get that probably for months. So i'm not saying LIVE is for everyone, or absolutely better.

As far as one game implementing voice chat or buddy lists, that the problem, it can only be implemented game by game, and that is the reason why LIVE is a GREAT service. It works the same across every game, and it even works when you aren't playing a game. PC services, such as Gamespy, just are not on the same level. I've used them, there is no comparison. Online PC gaming is a game by game experience and the quality varies and the services and functions vary by game, or you have to use some service like Gamespy or emails, or telephone. Not nearly as smooth, convenient, as Live. Plus the cheating is crazy, you gotta deal with 56kers..

As far as PC profits, I never MEANT to imply that $6Billion was what XBOX took. I could've sworn I said the consoles versus PC, but if I somehow made it sound like XBOX vs PC, not at all what I meant. In fact, it includes more than XBOX/GC/PS2, it also includes Gameboy, DC sales, PSOne sales. So all i'm saying is that consoles generate more revenue than PCs when it comes to games. I'm not even talking about profits. So don't get me wrong, I don't think PC gaming is going anyway. I don't think console gaming is for everyone. And some developers would make more on PCs than they would on consoles.

Its funny because I think Trebor or somebody was arguing that co-development ruined KOTOR and Deus Ex2. The person was arguing, the game should have been made on the PC first, then ported. The funny thing is, as far as KOTOR is concerned, if they had've made that decision, I think they would have decided to develop the XBOX version first, and port it to the PC. The game released ahead on XBOX, it sold 500,000 copies in the first few months, who knows how many on XBOX to date. And the developers obviously like the results, because they are doing Jade Empire exclusively on XBOX. So, I think for many developers(NOT ALL) they will be asking that question. I mean what does Rockstar do with GTA on the PC, peanuts compared to PS2. I think the big test will be Doom3 on the XBOX. If Doom3 moves Halo like numbers on the XBOX, a lot of PC devs will take notice.

[Renzatic Gear]

lol, actually I worded the profits argument a little badly..I didn't mean to imply that the Box made 6 billion last year, but rather that listing those numbers doesn't prove that the PC is faltering.

4 systems, PC, XBox, PS2, GC...8 billion dollars, 2 billion on the PC alone. So the PC garnered a quarter of the total profits. All that means is that, at best, all the platforms are in head-to-head competiton.

Course if I were to get really deeply into it I'd say that the PS2 probably accounted for most of those profits (we'll assume at least 3 billion), the PC taking in 2 billion..so that means that the Xbox either (approximately) tied with the PC, came in 3rd, or tied with the GC which would probably be dead last no matter how you look at it. So what does that prove? Not much.

[Tappy_Tibbons]

PS2 is the frikkin PC. It has USB ports.

All consoles are like a PC, Xbox is just more COMPLETE than other consoles.

[Twelve]

PS2 is the frikkin PC. It has USB ports.

All consoles are like a PC, Xbox is just more COMPLETE than other consoles.

Actually, Tappy begins to bring up a good point. Haven't you all figured it out yet? It's the PS2 trying to be like a PC, and the Xbox trying to be like a console.

Both sides fail miserably.


12

[sw33tjimmy]

not exactly sure how this discussion went from xbox2 using flash memory to the death of PC gaming, but I figured I'd just offer up my opinion to put things back on track.

Enough flash memory would remove the need for a hard disk. In addition, transfer times would be greatly reduced as well since information wouldn't have to be fetched from a mechanically spinning disk. I may be going out on a limb here, but it's possible that it wouldn't even require RAM usage to fetch Flash memory (though I could be wrong there). Honestly, after spending two years with the xbox, I can see how the 10 Gig hard disk was overkill. I've put a number of songs on it and have gobs and gobs of saved games and I haven't even scratched the 50,000 block capacity it's reporting.

If music can be compressed well, a song doesn't take more than 4M of space. A full album might take 40M. Even with 512M of flash, that will probably get taken up pretty quickly if you're a big music buff.

This is a lot less of a problem for me, though, since I've played PGR2. As long as games have a music selection as good as that of PGR2, I don't need custom soundtracks. Sure, I'll miss it at times, but as long as I can still download levels from xboxlive and save all the games I want without a controller card, I'll get over it. That is the true beauty of the hard drive, not having to spend money on memory cards.

I've touted on the Xbox hard disk in the past and I'll continue to do so. 2005 isn't here yet, and in the mean time, I still have an internal hard drive in my xbox and ps2/GCN owners do not.

[Tappy_Tibbons]

Although I'd miss custom soundtracks, the only thing Im concerned about is being about to save out of the box. TO THIS DAY I OWN 0 MEMORY CARDS FOR XBOX...ya know why? CAUSE I DON'T NEED THEM!

I heard Xbox Next will have servers which store game saves as well (for BB only though, but by then BB will have high saturation).

[AOE Enforcer]

Although I'd miss custom soundtracks, the only thing Im concerned about is being about to save out of the box. TO THIS DAY I OWN 0 MEMORY CARDS FOR XBOX...ya know why? CAUSE I DON'T NEED THEM!

I heard Xbox Next will have servers which store game saves as well (for BB only though, but by then BB will have high saturation).

You WON'T be able to save "out-of-the-box." You will have to buy flash memory cards for the system.

So tell me Tappy, if PS3 comes out after Xbox 2, has more powerful specs and an HDD built-in, will you buy a PS3 instead of an Xbox 2?

[Tappy_Tibbons]

http://news.teamxbox.com/content.php?id=5518

You Slowney suckers are so convinced PS3 will be so powerful when PS2 has been the biggest disappointment HARDWARE WISE in the HISTORY of gaming. Ya, keep riding the SLOWNEY bologna, I don't care.

There will be internal flash memory and I would guess it will be as big if not bigger than the current HDD

[Renzatic Gear]

http://news.teamxbox.com/content.php?id=5518
There will be internal flash memory and I would guess it will be as big if not bigger than the current HDD
There's no way in hell...even at manufacturer to manufacturer prices it'd be way too much for MS to float without charging at least $699 for the console.