It Just Keeps Getting Worse For GCN...

[Zilla Man]

First off, it's great to see all you guys back :D (Yes, I even mean you Snobbitt/Tappy and Massi)! :cool:


This is something you might not read for awhile, if at all. Monday I had lunch with my friend who is a junior V.P. in product management for Sierra/Universal/Vivendi. They also handle the Buffy, Simpsons, and a few other franchises acquired from Fox. Anyway, she told me that sales of their NGC ports have been so bad that:

1) They've had to lay of several dozen people as a result.

2) Vivendi is seriously considering stopping NGC support altogether -- and if they do it'll be by slowly, "quietly" cancelling titles in the press but by the time we read about it, the decision will already have been made to stop support. There'll probably be a decision by March.

According to her, of all the companies she deals with ,"N" is the most difficult because they're very inflexible and treat 3rd parties as if making games for their system is a privelege.

This brings me to my main question. N obviously has deep pockets but how much more can they take? Yes, I know GB SP lines their pockets but all that may change once PSP comes out (Sony upset N's market dominance before and could very well do it again). N's response to lagging console sales? To release a new console before the competition!Excuse me, but how will this increase sales? Remember what happened last time a company tried this tactic (Dreamcast)? How is this going to help attract third parties (whom they've managed to alienate even more than in the n64 days)?

What do you guys think?

[Gadfly2317]

What game's are getting the axe? The upcoming "Cat in the Hat?" "Metal Arms: Glitch in the System?" "The Hulk?" That's about all I could find from Vivendi.

"Spyro?" By Universal Interactive sold poorly? "The Scorpion King?" Sold poorly?

Maybe I'm missing something here. What good games has this company put out for Gamecube. I scoured the entire back catalog, and unless I over looked something, there's almost nothing from Vivendi on GC. Does this company release great games on other systems? I don't know.

Don't they do a lot of movie ports?

I don't know whether or not this is good or bad news, but we're approaching the last 1/3 of this generations cycle, and so far, the support for GC is way better than the N64. That isn't saying much, I agree, but all systems have more games coming out than any person could play--and multi-system owners have the option of playing nothing but cream of the crop titles across the platforms, and there are MANY such titles. But there are hundreds of mediocre titles out there, and a lot of lazy or less talented companies are losing cash as consumers flock to the blockbuster games, and have learned to discern what is crap. So yeah, there are plenty of game execs whining out there about poor sales,looking for a someone to blame, and I can't blame Vivendi for looking to cut first where they sell worst. But unless there a bunch of great games in the wings from this company that we're going to now miss out on, I gotta say; I'm not going to miss not having The Hulk or Scorpion King "games."

[Fragmastar]

<div class=\"smallfont\">What do you guys think?</div>

I think this is one of the greatest things that ever happened to the gaming world!

[The Prince of Darkness]

drum roll please...

What does it matter anyway? Vivendi is a suck-arse company with no redeeming future titles to speak of. Oh excuse me---there is a post just like that above. Deny, deny, deny people.

[Fragmastar]

<div class=\"smallfont\">drum roll please...

What does it matter anyway? Vivendi is a suck-arse company with no redeeming future titles to speak of. Oh excuse me---there is a post just like that above. Deny, deny, deny people.</div>

You change subjects too often. First you talk about Vivendi and then the next second, you talk about my post.

Learn how to get your words rearranged.

[The Prince of Darkness]

<div class=\"smallfont\"><div class=\"smallfont\"></div>

You change subjects too often. First you talk about Vivendi and then the next second, you talk about my post.

Learn how to get your words rearranged.</div>


Sorry man. We must have replied at the same time. I thought that Gadfly's post was above mine at the time.

[Fragmastar]

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Sorry man. We must have replied at the same time. I thought that Gadfly's post was above mine at the time.</div>

Oh, now I understand.

BTW, I absolutely agree with you that Vivendi is a suck-arse company with no redeeming future titles to speak of.

[Renzatic Gear]

They're publishing Half-Life 2 I think...and Starcraft Ghosts...and uh...uh...uh...hell if I know what else, I don't keep track of stuff like this.

[slade]

Vivendi/Universal games end up being flawed 90 percent of the time. They look good in the design process but end up shipping with some sort of flaw in gameplay. That said, I hope they don't cancel Metal Arms since I am sort of looking forward to it.

[trebor]

<div class=\"smallfont\">drum roll please...

What does it matter anyway? Vivendi is a suck-arse company with no redeeming future titles to speak of. Oh excuse me---there is a post just like that above. Deny, deny, deny people.</div>

Good to see you back, POD.

Anyways, you have to admit that Gadfly has a good point - it's not Nintendo's fault if any given company's mediocre titles sell poorly. Same deal with Acclaim - maybe if they didn't release derivative "extreme" sports crap titles, exclusively, they would have better sales.

You just can't blame a console when the software itself is subpar - look at how badly non-sports Sega titles sell on Xbox. Is that the Xbox's fault or Sega's?

Either way, I can't think of any Vivendi titles I own offhand. Plus, wasn't Vivendi going under anyways? There was a lot of buzz about a buy out taking place of Vivendi, because of their lackluster performance. I'm sure they would like to blame Nintendo for that too.

[The Prince of Darkness]

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Good to see you back, POD.

Anyways, you have to admit that Gadfly has a good point - it's not Nintendo's fault if any given company's mediocre titles sell poorly. Same deal with Acclaim - maybe if they didn't release derivative "extreme" sports crap titles, exclusively, they would have better sales.

You just can't blame a console when the software itself is subpar - look at how badly non-sports Sega titles sell on Xbox. Is that the Xbox's fault or Sega's?

Either way, I can't think of any Vivendi titles I own offhand. Plus, wasn't Vivendi going under anyways? There was a lot of buzz about a buy out taking place of Vivendi, because of their lackluster performance. I'm sure they would like to blame Nintendo for that too.</div>

Of course I was being a smartass('cause that is what I do best), but I do agree with you guys. Just more crappy titles that GC owners don't have to sift through. Really man I am starting to think that, in terms of at least decent sales numbers, Xbox has Tecmo and EA and Nintendo has Capcom in their respective corners and that is about all. It is sad really, but it is good system wars material.

[trebor]

<div class=\"smallfont\">&lt;div class=\&quot;smallfont\&quot;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;

Of course I was being a smartass('cause that is what I do best), but I do agree with you guys. Just more crappy titles that GC owners don't have to sift through. Really man I am starting to think that, in terms of at least decent sales numbers, Xbox has Tecmo and EA and Nintendo has Capcom in their respective corners and that is about all. It is sad really, but it is good system wars material.</div>

To be sure.

Out of curiosity, what are the big Tecmo titles on the Xbox?

[T.Tashi]

If the N64 survived that cartridge format, the Cube will survive this. It's really more of the same. Quality over quantity, mainly fueled by Nintendo's own in house development teams. This may be a big deal for Vivendi, but I don't think Nintendo is sweatin' it too much.

[The Prince of Darkness]

<div class=\"smallfont\"><div class=\"smallfont\"></div>

To be sure.

Out of curiosity, what are the big Tecmo titles on the Xbox?</div>

DOA3, DOAVBV, Ninja Gaiden, DOA Online etc.

[trebor]

<div class=\"smallfont\">&lt;div class=\&quot;smallfont\&quot;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;

DOA3, DOAVBV, Ninja Gaiden, DOA Online etc.</div>

Oh yeah, I forgot that the DOA series was Tecmo's baby.

[mass]

<div class=\"smallfont\">First off, it's great to see all you guys back :D (Yes, I even mean you Snobbitt/Tappy and Massi)! :cool:


This is something you might not read for awhile, if at all. Monday I had lunch with my friend who is a junior V.P. in product management for Sierra/Universal/Vivendi. They also handle the Buffy, Simpsons, and a few other franchises acquired from Fox. Anyway, she told me that sales of their NGC ports have been so bad that:

1) They've had to lay of several dozen people as a result.

2) Vivendi is seriously considering stopping NGC support altogether -- and if they do it'll be by slowly, &quot;quietly&quot; cancelling titles in the press but by the time we read about it, the decision will already have been made to stop support. There'll probably be a decision by March.

According to her, of all the companies she deals with ,&quot;N&quot; is the most difficult because they're very inflexible and treat 3rd parties as if making games for their system is a privelege.

This brings me to my main question. N obviously has deep pockets but how much more can they take? Yes, I know GB SP lines their pockets but all that may change once PSP comes out (Sony upset N's market dominance before and could very well do it again). N's response to lagging console sales? To release a new console before the competition!Excuse me, but how will this increase sales? Remember what happened last time a company tried this tactic (Dreamcast)? How is this going to help attract third parties (whom they've managed to alienate even more than in the n64 days)?

What do you guys think?</div>

Imagine that, nintendo thinking making games for their system is a privilege, who woulda thunk it? Larry Probst, ceo of EA is quoted in the latest EGM as commenting on Sony's entry into the hand-held market, as "Nintendo should be quaking in their boots." He's right, they should be.

Vivendi's game division has reportedly been in the rumor news as a potential buyout for a while now. Rumors of Starcraft Ghost being xbox only have also been long in the rumor mill.

Two primary things that a north american company will look at to determine software development for a particular platform. Installed base, naturally, the ps2 wins overwhelmingly, the xbox is a distant second, and the gc trails even farther. Next, is the propensity of that user base to buy the type of games you're making. Let's take for example, NCAA 2004, the best selling console title for July. Sales of a half-million on the ps2, 128,000 on the xbox for third place overall, and for the gc, well, it wasn't in the top 20, fact is, it was only the 8th best-selling gc title for that month, with an older title like Sonic Adventure 2 outselling it. I'd guess less than 20,000 copies sold and who knows, it might not have even broke five figures.

The seven games that beat out NCAA, everyone featured a mascot character, be it sonic, mario, link, wario, whatever. I'm sorry, but that's what nintendo owners are buying. It's a young demographic out there for the gc, with very limited taste buds.

Just got through a thread discussing PDO and Ikaruga and how gc owners are apparently flocking to this title in droves and how PDO should've gone to the cube because it would've sold better there. Yeah,right, Ikaruga, one appearance as a top 10 title for the gc, back in april at spot #9 and hasn't been heard from since. At least PDO managed a #5 spot for a month, so that beats out Ikaruga in the low-ball sales sweepstakes.

Let's face it, Nintendo's walking up to the batter's box with two strikes already against them.

After that, other factors come into play such as ease of development, the technical capability of a system, licencing fees and well, politics.

It all adds up, a title here, a title there, the marginal ones at first, but then they get bigger. Mace Griffin, gc development canned, RTX, originally planned for the gc, development canned. Shaun Murray Wakeboarding for the gc, another title quietly canned. Hitman 2 delayed several months on the gc, a fairly popular title, the best selling xbox title for last october, doesn't even crack the gc top 10. What are the odds for a gc version of Hitman 3? There's a domino effect in work, companies start looking at each other, going maybe those guys halting development know something we don't.

[Gadfly2317]

<div class=\"smallfont\"><div class=\"smallfont\"></div>



It all adds up, a title here, a title there, the marginal ones at first, but then they get bigger. Mace Griffin, gc development canned, RTX, originally planned for the gc, development canned. Shaun Murray Wakeboarding for the gc, another title quietly canned. Hitman 2 delayed several months on the gc, a fairly popular title, the best selling xbox title for last october, doesn't even crack the gc top 10. What are the odds for a gc version of Hitman 3? There's a domino effect in work, companies start looking at each other, going maybe those guys halting development know something we don't.</div>


First, I just gotta get it out of the way and say, damn those new Starcraft Ghost shots from GC that came out today looked sweet. And wasn't Mace canned everywhere? And have you heard what an awesome game RTX has been developing into? I'm surprised their selling it anywhere.

Like Xbox, Nintendo faces some problems. First up, there's no denying the kid demographic on this system dictates a lot of what is purchased. Compound that fact by considering it is a lot of the older players who still like playing Mario and Sonic games. I'd like to see this system continue to have a balance of Mature games along with the traditional Nintendo fair.

One of the worst problems Nintendo has with these ports, like the example of Hitman. Consider this. The half of the GC owners who are kids aren't going to get this game. The other half who are adults, MANY of them already own a PC, PS2, or Xbox. So these games come out, if they are hyped about them, they play them. If GC is going to continue getting stuff way late, then they hype is gone, and a lot of their players have played it on something else. I thought about picking up Hitman, but when it debuts on GC for $40, and its sitting over there in the PC rack for $19, there's no competition, Wavebird comfort be damned.

[Gaming Geezer 78]

From a game consumer standpoint, I can say that I have bought a ton of PS2 games, a few Xbox games and ONE Gamecube game in the last 3 months. And the only Gamecube title I have bought is Soul Calibur 2 today simply because I wanted to play as Link.

Nintendo is legendary for their "holier than thou" attitude toward 3rd party developers and I can't see anything changing. They were on the verge of completely losing EA support and handed them a wad of cash and reduced licensing fees to keep them onboard. Many 3rd party titles don't make it to Gamecube at all and the ones that do usually suck.

Vivendi cancelling 'cube titles could be more of a big deal than you may think. Sure, their games bite the big one, but titles like Hulk & The Hobbit from Vivendi appeal to the young'uns.

Also a bit off topic, but you always hear about how easy Gamecube is to develop for and how it's more powerful than PS2. Where? Most Nintendo-made games are low-polygon, low-texture affairs made of primary colors and little in the way of details. Look at Mario Sunshine. Mario looks nice, but the NPC's look like big primary-colored blobs with a weed growing out of their heads.

[mass]

<div class=\"smallfont\">

One of the worst problems Nintendo has with these ports, like the example of Hitman. Consider this. The half of the GC owners who are kids aren't going to get this game. The other half who are adults, MANY of them already own a PC, PS2, or Xbox. So these games come out, if they are hyped about them, they play them. If GC is going to continue getting stuff way late, then they hype is gone, and a lot of their players have played it on something else. I thought about picking up Hitman, but when it debuts on GC for $40, and its sitting over there in the PC rack for $19, there's no competition, Wavebird comfort be damned.</div>

You make a lot of suppositions about gc demographics, based on nothing more than pure speculation. Nintendo has stated in the past that their target demographic was 4 to 15 and the spate of games recently released for the system appear to target that segment.

In the final analysis, it's all immaterial anyway, if gc buyers don't buy third party titles for whatever reason, third party support will dwindle. It's that simple. Hitman 2 hasn't sold well on the gc, neither has Splinter Cell whose best showing on the gc was at the #5 spot in April. Do you think companies rationalize why the game didn't sell, they just know it sold on the other platforms, it didn't sell on the gc. NCAA 2004 is another miserable sales failure on the gc while it sold very well on the xbox and ps2. How long before EA goes, "We're wasting our time here, with sports on the gc." This is an all too familiar pattern with a large number of multi-platform titles on the gc that are skewed to an older demographic. Now, release sonic, we're talking a different story. Oh, yeah, it's an old unchanged dc port of a flawed launch title for the dreamcast, but, hey, it's sonic.

[Zilla Man]

<div class=\"smallfont\">What game's are getting the axe? The upcoming "Cat in the Hat?" "Metal Arms: Glitch in the System?" "The Hulk?" That's about all I could find from Vivendi.

"Spyro?" By Universal Interactive sold poorly? "The Scorpion King?" Sold poorly?

Maybe I'm missing something here. What good games has this company put out for Gamecube. I scoured the entire back catalog, and unless I over looked something, there's almost nothing from Vivendi on GC. Does this company release great games on other systems? I don't know.

Don't they do a lot of movie ports?

I don't know whether or not this is good or bad news, but we're approaching the last 1/3 of this generations cycle, and so far, the support for GC is way better than the N64. That isn't saying much, I agree, but all systems have more games coming out than any person could play--and multi-system owners have the option of playing nothing but cream of the crop titles across the platforms, and there are MANY such titles. But there are hundreds of mediocre titles out there, and a lot of lazy or less talented companies are losing cash as consumers flock to the blockbuster games, and have learned to discern what is crap. So yeah, there are plenty of game execs whining out there about poor sales,looking for a someone to blame, and I can't blame Vivendi for looking to cut first where they sell worst. But unless there a bunch of great games in the wings from this company that we're going to now miss out on, I gotta say; I'm not going to miss not having The Hulk or Scorpion King "games."</div>

You're right, Gaddy -- Scorpion King sold poorly on all systems but the Cube sold at a lower average than the other two. The same thing happened with Crash nad Spyro. Granted, the franchises are getting old but you'd think that they'd sell more per capita on GCN than the the other two "more Mature" systems (my friends' words not mine). Hulk sold fairly well on X-box and PS2 but not the Cube (I don't really care for the game myself, but I seem to be in the minority). Cat In The Hat is on target for NGC because of the target group/subject matter

According to my friend a NGC BATTLESTAR GALACTICA game was being developed simultaneously with the other versions, but the plug was pulled when it was about 40% done. By looking at the trades/magazines, you'd never even know it was in development. It's a pretty good (from what I've played so far) mission-based shooter by some of the Colony Wars guys.

The other GCN titles that have been cancelled are still in development (due next year) They are:

1) A FPS/third person PREDATOR game (get ready, Snobbit!).

2) Another ALIENS game

3) An action RPG by Monolith (the guys who did No One Lives Forever) but different than Badlur's Gate.

These are now being developed only for X-Box and PS2. I'll give you guys more info as I get it.... ;)

Vivendi obviously hasn't sworn off NGC altogether...yet. It's just that I'm seeing more and more of this disturbing trend with 3rd parties and NGC.

[Gadfly2317]

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You make a lot of suppositions about gc demographics, based on nothing more than pure speculation. Nintendo has stated in the past that their target demographic was 4 to 15 and the spate of games recently released for the system appear to target that segment.

In the final analysis, it's all immaterial anyway, if gc buyers don't buy third party titles for whatever reason, third party support will dwindle. It's that simple. Hitman 2 hasn't sold well on the gc, neither has Splinter Cell whose best showing on the gc was at the #5 spot in April. Do you think companies rationalize why the game didn't sell, they just know it sold on the other platforms, it didn't sell on the gc. NCAA 2004 is another miserable sales failure on the gc while it sold very well on the xbox and ps2. How long before EA goes, "We're wasting our time here, with sports on the gc." This is an all too familiar pattern with a large number of multi-platform titles on the gc that are skewed to an older demographic. Now, release sonic, we're talking a different story. Oh, yeah, it's an old unchanged dc port of a flawed launch title for the dreamcast, but, hey, it's sonic.</div>

I don't think companies "rationalize" why their titles are selling poorly, and I wasn't rationalizing either. I was giving valid hypotheses. And game companies are doing the same thing. Hype is a big part of what sells games, and a lot of momentum is taken out of a title's sails when its been around for months, you've heard all about it, you've played it at your friends house, or you lose interest because the next cool hyped thing is just arriving on GC at the same time as the months old port. The game companies have come to this conclusion as well, I believe, if you look at how many of the anticipated titles are set to launch simultaneously across all platforms (Soul Calibur II, Splinter Cell II, Prince of Persia, Starcraft Ghost, XIII, Beyond Good and Evil all come to mind right off). This wasn't how companies released big multi-platform hits last year; they were staggered across the systems; first PS2, and then on to Xbox and GC. Multi-system games for the older demographic will still probably sell least on GC, but they'll certainly do better than if they come to the GC 9 months after everyone has stopped giving a crap about a title or already bought for their PS2.

[Gadfly2317]

<div class=\"smallfont\"><div class=\"smallfont\"></div>

According to my friend a NGC BATTLESTAR GALACTICA game was being developed simultaneously with the other versions, but the plug was pulled when it was about 40% done. By looking at the trades/magazines, you'd never even know it was in development. It's a pretty good (from what I've played so far) mission-based shooter by some of the Colony Wars guys.

3) An action RPG by Monolith (the guys who did No One Lives Forever) but different than Badlur's Gate.

Vivendi obviously hasn't sworn off NGC altogether...yet. It's just that I'm seeing more and more of this disturbing trend with 3rd parties and NGC.</div>


I doesn't surprise me that their cancelling the Aliens/predators games on GC, nor am I dismayed. The Battlestar Galactica game done by some of the Colony Wars team sounds like it could have been interesting, though.