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iVirtual

08-26-2003, 01:28 PM

Ok so the mac excels in Graphics, Audio, Video, Quality and Design.

There is nothing you can do on a PC that you can do on a MAc, except games. But i personally do all my gaming on Xbox, which has all those great PC games.....

You can run a little app called VirtualPC that emulates Windows so you can run any program not avilable in Windows, and the speed of the G5 is more than enough to emulate a 1.5Ghz PC.

You CAN use any type of mouse you want on a Mac. PCs come with a ****ty mouse youll end up changing anyway.

The benchamrks for the G5 were NOT done on optimezed 64bit apps because THEY DONT EXIST YET. So the G5 kicks the P4s ass without being optimized, wait till it actually is.....

OSX runs on UNIX, so its a lot more stable than Windows, no problems with drivers like in windows, and you can get Pro if you want with Unix Shell.

Price: Top of the line DUAL 2ghzG5 with 1ghz 3200DDR SDRAM, ATI RADEON 9800PRO 256, 160GB, DVDRW, BLUETOOTH, AIRPORT, 1GHZ FSB, OSX, OPTICAL SOUND CARD, USB 2, FIREWIRE 800 and 64BIT= $3549

Top of the Line Alienware Dual XEON 3.06, 1ghz 2100DDR SDRAM, 16oGB, DVDRW, Nvidia Quadro 128, NO BLUETOOTH, NO WIRELESS, 533MHZ FSB, SOUND BLASTER AUDIGY 2, USB 2, NO FIREWIRE, and 32BIT= $4643

So the ram is Slower on the Alienware (2100 vs 3200), the motherboard is slower (533 vs 1000) the performance is slower (P4 vs G5), The sound Card is worst (Audigy vs Optical), The video card on the AW is 128MB, the Radeon is 256MB on the MAc no wireless, no bluetooth on the AW,the mac is 64BIT and the AW 32bit AND the AW is more Expensive????

I mean the AW is much less powerfull than the mac and its still MORE than 1000$ more expensive???????

Im sorry but PCs are more expensive...slower...and they run ****ty windows....

Say waht you want about the G3, the imac and the G4, say what you want about MacOS 9, yes they are slower, basic and expensive

But the G5 with 64Bit and OSX is the best computer on the market. At a better price.

You cant deny that Apple has something great here.

stevedperkins

08-26-2003, 02:33 PM

Ok so the mac excels in Graphics, Audio, Video, Quality and Design.The Mac was first-to-market in terms of targeting the multimedia space, and remains an established niche player. There's a huge difference. If a development studio wrote the most fun and enjoyable Mario-style cartoon "kiddie" game in history, and released it as an exclusive for the XBox, the majority of Nintendo folks would turn their noses up at it because it doesn't have the Nintendo logo on it. That has no bearing whatsoever on it being a superior game.
 

There is nothing you can do on a PC that you can do on a MAc, except games.Umm, you can spend three lifetimes browsing all the freeware and/or open-source sites out there for the PC world. Whatever you need to do, you can probably take your pick of 15 different PC apps... each of which out-do the one or two Mac choices available (and half of which are free). You can find the software that does things the way you want to do them, rather than do things whatever way Apple says is best for you. (Yes, I know... choice is intimidating and scary and actually more of a liability than an asset. Wah...)
 

You can run a little app called VirtualPC that emulates Windows so you can run any program not avilable in Windows, and the speed of the G5 is more than enough to emulate a 1.5Ghz PC.Awesome... so for a few extra hundred bucks, you can buy software that makes your top-of-the-line Mac behave like a mediocre PC. One question for you: if a Mac can do anything that a PC can do but better, why is the most-talked-about Mac application a PC emulator?!? I've never been able to get a Mac disciple to explain that obvious contridiction. If the Mac were so inherently superior, you would think a PC emulator would be unheard-of... rather than being the first thing you see when you walk into the tiny little Mac corner of CompUSA.
 

The benchamrks for the G5 were NOT done on optimezed 64bit apps because THEY DONT EXIST YET. So the G5 kicks the P4s ass without being optimized, wait till it actually is.....BEEN wating on this for years. You know when 64-bit desktop software development will finally hit the mainstream? When Microsoft and Intel get their game together and release the Itanium with a 64-bit Windows. It's not like 64-bit processors are anything new, the apps aren't there because the software industry isn't going to put money into it until there is momentum in the marketplace... and the Mac market just isn't significant enough to fit that bill.
 

OSX runs on UNIX, so its a lot more stable than Windows, no problems with drivers like in windows, and you can get Pro if you want with Unix Shell.Those first two arguments are obsolete, and the third is laughable. Wow, hand over a fat wad of money to get the command-prompt that has come with Windows for 15 years now? What a deal!
 

(shopping list spec comparisons snipped...)
I mean the AW is much less powerfull than the mac and its still MORE than 1000$ more expensive???????What exactly was all that supposed to prove? That it IS possible to find a particular PC model that retails for more than a particular Mac model? That Alienware is an outrageously over-priced rip-off outfit? Hey, neither of these are newsflashes. The fact remains that if you walk into any CompUSA on the planet, the midrange PC's you look at will cost drastically less than the midrange Macs. If you even try to dispute that you'll blow away every shred of credibility you could ever have had.
 

You CAN use any type of mouse you want on a Mac. PCs come with a shi**y mouse youll end up changing anyway.
...
Im sorry but PCs are more expensive...slower...and they run shi**y windows....You know, when I get accused of "flaming" you Mac guys, I just want it pointed out for the record that you stoners were the first to start tossing swear words around. That's just completely unnecessary and harmful to your credibility... is it really too much effort to mask your swear words with a couple of asterisks?

Renzatic Gear

08-26-2003, 04:11 PM

Macs have better graphics? How can they have better graphics when the exact same card is also available for the PC? Secondly, why in the hell did you choose the Quadro as your top tier PC graphics card? It can't even be compared to the Radeons simply because its a business card, mostly aimed at the rendering and CAD crowds. I think you just threw it in there to jack up the price, cuz by picking it all you did was show that you have no idea what you're talking about. And those shiny 256 meg cards? Been available in the PC world for about 6 months now.

And whats the big deal with Firewire anyway? You act like its not available for the PC anywhere, yet if you were to do your research you'd see that every Audigy card comes standard with a Firewire expansion. USB 2.0? I've had it for about a year now.

I could go on, but Steved pretty much covered the bases for me.

iVirtual

08-26-2003, 04:28 PM

"Macs have better graphics? How can they have better graphics when the exact same card is also available for the PC?"

I never said they have better graphics. THey are better for the graphic development world.

"Secondly, why in the hell did you choose the Quadro as your top tier PC graphics card? It can't even be compared to the Radeons simply because its a business card, mostly aimed at the rendering and CAD crowds."

Its the one offered for proffesional graphics systems by AW. No matter which one you chooses, the mac is still cheaper.

"And whats the big deal with Firewire anyway? You act like its not available for the PC anywhere, yet if you were to do your research you'd see that every Audigy card comes standard with a Firewire expansion. USB 2.0? I've had it for about a year now."

True, Audigy does come with FW, i actually have one too, i forgot. But Firewire 2 is a different thing. And Firewire is needed for Video Apps and Fast Data Transfer. I know its available on PC but the one I built from AW has 1 FW400 and its more expensive than the Mac.

iVirtual

08-26-2003, 04:42 PM

"The Mac was first-to-market in terms of targeting the multimedia space, and remains an established niche player. There's a huge difference. If a development studio wrote the most fun and enjoyable Mario-style cartoon "kiddie" game in history, and released it as an exclusive for the XBox, the majority of Nintendo folks would turn their noses up at it because it doesn't have the Nintendo logo on it. That has no bearing whatsoever on it being a superior game."

Whatever that means...

"Umm, you can spend three lifetimes browsing all the freeware and/or open-source sites out there for the PC world. Whatever you need to do, you can probably take your pick of 15 different PC apps... each of which out-do the one or two Mac choices available (and half of which are free). You can find the software that does things the way you want to do them, rather than do things whatever way Apple says is best for you."

I dont think any app out there can out do Final Cut Pro, or MAya 5 for Mac, or DVD Studio Pro, or Keynote. But of course you have not used them so how can you judge them???

"Awesome... so for a few extra hundred bucks, you can buy software that makes your top-of-the-line Mac behave like a mediocre PC. One question for you: if a Mac can do anything that a PC can do but better, why is the most-talked-about Mac application a PC emulator??
I've never been able to get a Mac disciple to explain that obvious contridiction. If the Mac were so inherently superior, you would think a PC emulator would be unheard-of... rather than being the first thing you see when you walk into the tiny little Mac corner of CompUSA."

Simple. There are application and GAMES that dont run on Mac. ex. KAZAA. THere are other applications that can replace KAZAA, BUT if you have the desire to run Kazaa on a Mac you are not limited or forced to buy a PC. You can just usa VPC and have 2 computers in one.

You know when 64-bit desktop software development will finally hit the mainstream? When Microsoft and Intel get their game together and release the Itanium with a 64-bit Windows. It's not like 64-bit processors are anything new, the apps aren't there because the software industry isn't going to put money into it until there is momentum in the marketplace... and the Mac market just isn't significant enough to fit that bill.

OSX is optimized, All Apple APPS are optimez witha patch. Photoshop is optimized. Cinema 4d, Final Cut 4, DVD Studio, Shake, will be optimez in less than a month

"Those first two arguments are obsolete, and the third is laughable. Wow, hand over a fat wad of money to get the command-prompt that has come with Windows for 15 years now? What a deal!"

Uhh...UNIX is better.

"What exactly was all that supposed to prove? That it possible to find a particular PC model that retails for more than a particular Mac model? That Alienware is an outrageously over-priced rip-off outfit? Hey, neither of these are newsflashes. The fact remains that if you walk into any CompUSA on the planet, the midrange PC's you look at will cost drastically less than the midrange Macs. If you even to dispute that you'll blow away every shred of credibility you could ever have had."

Thta AW is not overpriced. I configured as similarly as i could to the Mac. On the AW website.

It Depends on what you mean by MIDRANGE. COnfigure them both the same and the PC comes out more expensive thats the point.

"You know, when I get accused of "flaming" you Mac guys, I just want it pointed out for the record that you stoners were the first to start tossing swear words around. That's just completely unnecessary and harmful to your credibility... is it too much effort to mask your swear words with a couple of asterisks?"

I dont know what you are talking about. I havent insulted anyone. But now that you bring it up, is masking the words with *** any different than actually writing it?? does the meaning somehow magically change when you do this?? for example: you are so ******* stupid!!

Did the F word cross your mind??? im sure it did, so what ******* difference does it make???

Renzatic Gear

08-26-2003, 04:47 PM

I never said they have better graphics. They are better for the graphic development world.
If they're so much better for the graphic development world then why is the G5 offering the R9800, which is a high end gaming card, instead of a Quadro equivalent? Yeah, the Radeon might be able to do it, but it won't do it as well as a card thats been built for it from the ground up.True, Audigy does come with FW, i actually have one too, i forgot. But Firewire 2 is a different thing. And Firewire is needed for Video Apps and Fast Data Transfer. I know its available on PC but the one I built from AW has 1 FW400 and its more expensive than the Mac.
And firewire 2.0 is available for the PC as well. You can pick up an expansion card for cheap and still get the same performance out of it that you would from the Mac.

Also, given a little bit of time I'm willing to bet that I could build an equivalent 64 bit PC and still keep it under the price of the G5. To justify your argument you've been going through Alienware, which charges something like regular base price for a computer then doubles it when they slap their logo on the case. I mean they're not even up to date on most of their components offered yet they're still charging top dollar for the stuff.

stevedperkins

08-26-2003, 07:35 PM

Before I get started, let me take a 10-second time-out to give you half a clue about how this board works. When you want to quote something a previous poster has said, all you have to do is put "[QUO TE]" (leave out the space between the 'O' an the 'T') before the original author's text, and [/QUO TE] after the text. This will cause it to render as a neatly-formatted quote reference, and make your posts much easier to read. I know this is incredibly difficult for a Mac user to comprehend, not being able to generate through point-n-clicks and all... let me know if I need to break it down into easier steps for you
 

I dont think any app out there can out do Final Cut Pro, or MAya 5 for Mac, or DVD Studio Pro, or Keynote.Adobe Premiere, Maya for Windows (not as familiar with this one, there are probably other equivalents as well), DVD Shrink or DVD Decrypter (both freeware), any of the 200 slideshow apps that have come down the pipe (Powerpoint is overkill as-is).
 

Uhh...UNIX is better.Uh, once again... you DO realize that you're talking about operating systems, not the hardware platforms themselves? If UNIX is now the difference-maker, you can run Linux or FreeBSD on a PC with KDE or Gnome... either of which being a more feature-rich environment than the Mac's graphical shell.
 

Thta AW is not overpriced. I configured as similarly as i could to the Mac. On the AW website.

It Depends on what you mean by MIDRANGE. COnfigure them both the same and the PC comes out more expensive thats the point.So the Alienware system isn't overpriced, because you "got the price from their website"? Err, um, aw screw it... I'm just going let that one slide.

The bottom line is that you don't "configure them both the same". Trying to get agreement on which Mac clockspeeds "equal" which Intel clockspeeds is like trying to get baseball fans to agree on what Babe Ruth's batting average would be against today's pitchers. As has been pointed out elsewhere on this thread, it IS interesting that you picked a Mac with a gamer video card to compare against a PC with a much more expensive card geared for CAD engineering.

It also says alot that you pick Alienware as your representative PC... where no matter what configuration you pick, you're going to pay almost an extra grand for the cool case and 'l33t' label on the front. Even when PC shopping, you can't even fathom the notion the buying a machine without some artsy-fartsy neon case. You Mac guys amaze me. You begin every argument by harping on how you "don't want to have to fool with driver problems", because "we just care about getting our work done"... yet if being practical is such a priority, why the eagerness to pay a premium for meaningless aethetics?!?
 

is masking the words with *** any different than actually writing it?? does the meaning somehow magically change when you do this?? for example: you are so ******* stupid!! Did the F word cross your mind??? im sure it did, so what ******* difference does it make???Hey, I just spent the last few days going back and forth with the admin over what the guidelines are going to be for the "new" System Wars forum. I want a more "anything goes" atmosphere, while Chris made it clear that his goal was to curtail flaming and swear words. Make no mistake about it, I'm not in favor of a Disney-style forum. Seeing as how no admins have said squat about you peppering your posts with swear words, I guess they're not to gung-ho on enforcing that kind of culture either. That's a good thing.

However, while I have nothing against an all-out flamewar... I happen to think that resorting to swear words is a weak "crutch" for people that can't argue effectively. They don't offend me, but my personal style is to use them sparingly and asterisk-out a letter or two when I do. I just think that overdoing it weakens a post, shows that you're not an effective writer. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion and style, however... as long as the admins let it go, post however you want.

iVirtual

08-26-2003, 09:30 PM

You dont really read my answers man. I dont even know why you brought up the "***" thing when i never cussed in my original post.

The FIREWIRE issue: I dont care if you can or cannot get FW2 on a PC the point is that the PC I created did not have it and it was more expensive. Apple comes with it. Heck add the Firewire 800 card and the price difference is 1300$ now. might aswell get the Flat panel 20" display with the G5....for the same price of the AW with no monitor....

My video Card agument was also overlooked since i mentioned that even if you change the card, the PC would be more expensive. I chse the best Card for the MAc and a LESS POWERFULL card for the PC, and its still more expensive. The Radeon is not JUST a gamers card. You dont do graphiccs or video do you??

Go ahead and make a 64Bit PC cheaper than a Dual G5..I would love to see you try. Im serious. Same specs. including DUAL processor, the 1ghz FSB and 3200 SDRAM.

Even if you do find it, you wont have the Apple Quality.

Im runing on a custom made P4 3.06 and its the worst mistake of my life. Sound Glitches, Random restarts, driver problems, and it was built at a professional PC house. www.internetishop.com

Never compare Premiere with Final Cut Pro. It just shows that you have never used them.

All the other apps you mentioned, as I said before, will never match the quality of the Apple software. I dont care how many there are, all I need is 1 good one. And Apple makes it.

Anyway..ill be waiting for your 64bit PC....

Renzatic Gear

08-26-2003, 10:20 PM

Go ahead and make a 64Bit PC cheaper than a Dual G5..I would love to see you try. Im serious. Same specs. including DUAL processor, the 1ghz FSB and 3200 SDRAM.
Well, the only disadvantage I have here is that the max PC FSB is just 800Mhz at the moment, so I covered that discrepancy by going with PC4200 DDR SDRAM and a RAID 5 harddrive array. Heres what I got (all prices from pricewatch.com):

PC 4200 DDR 1 GB: $385
Dual Opteron 242: $900
ARIMA HDAMB WS Dual Opteron Mobo w/ AGP 8x, USB & Firewire 2.0 ready, SATA133 compliant: $398
Radeon 9800 Pro 256 Meg: $426
5 Maxtor SATA 120GB harddrives in RAID5 configuration: $535
Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy 2 Platinum EX: $215
DVD-RW Drive: $230
Floppy Drive: $5
450 Watt PSU ATX Case: $110
Heatsink + Cables: $80
Price: $3284

This is the PC equivalent to the Mac G5, better in a few ways, worse in 1. It'll be able to at least keep pace with it. What I find amazing is that Apple actually released a Mac that doesn't cost twice as much as what you could get for the PC. Still a couple hundred bucks cheaper..it'd be even moreso if I didn't throw in 4 extra harddrives.

iVirtual

08-27-2003, 06:25 AM

add $150 for Windows XP=$3434.

add to that having to wait for all the parts to ship, SHIPPING COST, (I can go to my local Apple Store), then having to build it yourself (which is fun and all, but still) and then having to deal with 12 different companies in case one of the parts fail...and having to ship back and forth...and then dealing with all the driver BS on windows and viruses and patches because MS can't make a decent OS, all that hassle for the same price of the G5 wich is a high quality branded computer with the best UNIX based OS?

not good enough....why dont you try building it on Dell or Gateway?? there is no equivalent is there?

I mean i can go to the web and buy auto parts to build an equivalent to a Ferrari for less than a Ferrari...but is it really a Ferrari?? DO you get the customer service you get with a Ferrari??

but anyway man...you had to go on pricewatch to find a PC that matches Apple's price, not many people will do that. Most people just rather go to compUSA, or Dell or wathever to get a PC...and they'll be paying a lot more for less...

The point here is Apple finally has made a great machine, make that the best branded machine available right now and still managed to price it amazingly well.

Renzatic Gear

08-27-2003, 07:02 AM

lol, like installing drivers is that big of a problem. I'm sure that popping in a CD and waiting 10 seconds is such a huge hassle, guess thats the price you pay for being able to choose from multiple brands. And viruses are viruses, they've hit every OS type at one point or another, you just see em on Windows more often because they're a much larger target.

But since you're not a big Windows fan after all lets exclude it altogether and go with a nix based OS. Throw Redhat on for free and you got whats basically OSX with a more open ended enviroment.

not good enough....why dont you try building it on Dell or Gateway?? there is no equivalent is there?...but anyway man...you had to go on pricewatch to find a PC that matches Apple's price, not many people will do that. Most people just rather go to compUSA, or Dell or wathever to get a PC...and they'll be paying a lot more for less...

Why for? So you can show me what the average consumer will go for? I'll tell you right now that it won't be either one of the machines..the $3000+ pricetag on em both will drive away any casual comp shopper.

I mean i can go to the web and buy auto parts to build an equivalent to a Ferrari for less than a Ferrari...but is it really a Ferrari?? DO you get the customer service you get with a Ferrari??

If it can go as fast, if not faster, than a Ferrari then why worry about the brand name? Just because your computer has the name Apple on it doesn't necessarily mean its instantly better. Course to be fair here you do get better customer support, I gotta give you that one.

The point here is Apple finally has made a great machine, make that the best branded machine available right now and still managed to price it amazingly well.

Yeah, its a great machine..never said it wasn't..but it doesn't blow away the PC performancewise when you look at proper 3rd party benchmarks (never trust benches released by the manufacturers..they all lie like *****es). Couple that with the fact that software support is limited for the Macs..I just don't see it as a good purchase in the long run.

Oh, and OSX is just like any other OS when it comes to it doing stupid things like random reboots and weird errors. I can dig up hundreds of stories about em, just like with XP.

stevedperkins

08-27-2003, 10:15 AM

Well, the only disadvantage I have here is that the max PC FSB is just 800Mhz at the moment, so I covered that discrepancy by going with PC4200 DDR SDRAM and a RAID 5 harddrive array. Heres what I got (all prices from pricewatch.com):Well it looks like Renzatic Gear is manning the torpedos on the super-high-end system front... I'll leave him to it since I'm not a CAD engineer, and would never consider paying $3,000-$4,000 for any desktop box. I'll shift my attention to what is supposed to be Mac's advertised strong suite... catering to the "AOL demographic", non-tech-savvy average Joe's who want the best value in a machine that handles their needs with no hassle. I'll start by comparing middle-of-the-road systems, and then move into budget boxes.

For the middle-of-the-road comparison, I looked at the Dell Dimension vs the Apple iMac. All configurations and prices below were obtained from Dell and Apple's own storefront websites, respectively:

<center><table width='65%' border='1'><tr><td width='50%' valign='top'>
<center>Dell Dimension 4600</center>
- Pentium 4, 2.4 GHz
- 1GB Dual Channel DDR SDRAM at 333MHz
- 80GB Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive (7200 RPM)
- DVD/CD-RW
- 17 in 1703FP Ultrasharp Digital Flat Panel Display
- 64MB DDR NVIDIA GeForce4 MX™ Graphics Card with TV-Out and DVI (opt for 128MB for $15 more)
- 10/100 Ethernet
- Office suite and McAfee VirusScan with one-year update subscription
- 1 year support with in-home service

<center>Total cost: $1,369</center>
</td><td align='50%' valign='top'>
<center>Apple iMac</center>
- G4 1 GHz
- 1GB DDR at 266
- 80GB Ultra ATA drive
- DVD/CD-RW
- 17-inch widescreen LCD flat
- NVIDIA GeForce4 MX w/ 64MB video memory
- 10/100 Ethernet
- 90 days support with 1-year parts warranty

<center>Total cost: $2,199</center>
</td></tr></table></center>

333 MHz vs 266 on the RAM, better warranty, and twice the video card for an extra fifteen bucks (bringing the price difference to $815 rather than $830). Jesus, your Mac better be the "sexy" "babe magnet" that 'mass' claims it is!

For the web surfer's budget system, I compared eMachines (the brand I've been using at home for the past three years) with the Apple eMac. Again, configurations and prices come from eMachines' and Apple's storefront websites, respectively:

<center><table width='65%' border='1'><tr><td width='50%' valign='top'>
<center>eMachines T2341</center>
- AMD Athlon 2400+
- 128 MB DDR RAM
- 40 GB hard drive
- S3 ProSavage8 Integrated
- 48x CD-RW
- 10/100 Ethernet
- 1 year warranty

<center>Total cost: $399 (monitor separate)</center>
</td><td align='50%' valign='top'>
<center>Apple eMac</center>
- G4 800 MHz
- 128 MB SDRAM
- 40 GB hard drive
- ATI Raedon 7500
- CD-ROM only (RW is extra)
- 10/100 Ethernet
- 1 year warranty

<center>Total cost: $799 (monitor separate)</center>
</td></tr></table></center>

Granted, the eMac comes with a better name-brand video card... but for a price difference of $400, I'd rather just upgrade myself if I want to play any of the handful of games today the S3 couldn't handle. Don't forget also that the Mac buyer would have to cough up extra money to get a CD burner... and to the average home user these days, being able to make discs from their MP3's is probably a much bigger deal than having the latest bleeding-edge video card for Star Wars Galaxies (which wouldn't even do the Mac buyer any good anyway, for the obvious reason).

Notice that the closer you get to the budget and feature requirments of the people in the Mac commercials, the more lopsided the Mac-to-PC value comparisons get! At the super-high-end level they're almost even, in the midrange the Mac's cost about one-and-a-half times more... and by the time you get down to the level of system I would recommend to my Mom, a Mac costs TWICE as much as an equivalent PC! Twice the money, and 5% of the software options! (do you really think the average Grandma home user benefits in the slightest from any of that high-end Mac-exclusive professional video editing software?!?)

If I were you, I'd keep my arguments confined to the realm of super-high-end graphic/CAD workstations... where at least you come close to parity. When you venture into the mainstream, that's where you absolutely get killed.

iVirtual

08-27-2003, 12:52 PM

stevedperkins

08-27-2003, 01:50 PM

Monitor separate on the eMac??? have you ever seen one of these???

dude the eMac was rated the best value PC on Cnet for education in 2003. I dont have a link...but i know it was at some point. Your pricing argument is useless here because the eMac comes with a 17" BUILT IN MONITOR and Harmann Kardon Speakers. The Emachine sucks anyway.Hey, you DO have a point! I completely forgot that the eMac was one of those monitor-and-computer-all-in-one-unit things that Compaq used to make in the mid-90's before finally admitting the design sucked. However, that oversight hardly "makes my pricing argument worthless". You can go to CompUSA and buy an equivalent 17 in CRT monitor for about $150 (http://www.compusa.com/products/category.asp?id=11&category_id=11), and you still have the eMac at about 150% the cost of the PC... without the advantage of being able to keep the monitor when you move up to your next system purchase. Do you have anything better to match that, other than a pro-Mac Cnet article and "eMachines sucks anyway"?

By the way, if you're pointing to articles about it being such a great "value for education"... why do you yourself then declare (in the next paragraph I'm about to quote) that the lower level of Macs offer less performance, less functionality, and are more expensive?
 

And like i said on my first post, which obviously you didnt read:

"Say waht you want about the G3, the imac and the G4, say what you want about MacOS 9, yes they are slower, basic and expensive

But the G5 with 64Bit and OSX is the best computer on the market. At a better price.

You can't deny that Apple has something great here."I apologize. Apparently I got you and 'mass' (a Mac guy I'm arguing with in another thread) mixed up... I didn't realize that you had acknowledged right off the bat that Macs are a crappy choice for the average home user.

I'm not too up on my 64-bit dual-processor specs (I'd never pay $3,000-$4,000 for a machine, and if I were given one by my company it would probably be an IBM RS/6000 station running AIX... which, while not being much of a graphics player, has enough raw power to make any Mac or PC cry like a little *****. However, that's another argument for another time and place.). I'll leave the super-high-end specialty system debate to you and Renzatic Gear.

You know, maybe you can prove that it's possible to find a Mac with marginally nicer specs than a PC for narrow specialist niche use... with a price tag more or less equal to the PC. Good for you if you can, but I'm not sure that qualifies as "something great here". It's hard to argue a product's "unsurpassed greatness" when you could raise its price 3-5% and it suddenly loses its competitive edge.