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Richard Hobbes
11-26-2003, 10:49 AM
Everyone,

(Note: these comments contain spoilers throughout so read no further if you have not finished the game. I originally posted this in Mackster's post "Knights of the Old Republic out tomorrow", but it seemed better suited in its own thread so I've moved it here.)

This is an updated version of a post I made on the System Wars forum several months back. I was commenting on the Xbox version of KOTOR so these comments must be taken in their proper context. From what I've read, the PC version of KOTOR is very similar to the Xbox version (bugs and all) and thus these comments should still be very applicable. Please keep in mind that this post has the flavor of a rant because I was somewhat tired of all the glowing reviews of KOTOR. In my opinion, KOTOR is a rather average RPG that contains an unacceptable number of software defects (bugs). As such, I was letting off a little bit of steam after trudging through a few bugs in KOTOR that I found surprising.

The post begins here:

Just to set the stage here... I am an Xbox owner who also owns a PS2, PC, and GameCube. I've just finished playing KOTOR (on Normal difficulty) to completion for three of its endings (two republic win endings and one Sith win ending).

Here are my final thoughts on KOTOR.

KOTOR is one of the most over hyped and underdeveloped games that I've ever played. Other than fabulous voice acting, every other aspect of the game is underdeveloped and/or unfinished. The biggest disappointments in the game are bugs, poor story development, heinous graphics, bland level design, and a poor battle system. I'll extrapolate on these below.

I've covered the bugs before (in an earlier post), but to recap... some of the bugs render the game incapable of being finished. Some bugs are just plain annoying. Most importantly, one particular bug completely ruins the ending of the story. Imagine my horror when, after killing Bastilla and taking down Darth Malak, several minutes later Bastilla appears in the closing ceremony to accept the Republic's words of gratitude! It's obvious here that BioWare forgot (or didn't have time) to create both "Bastilla lives" and "Bastilla dies" endings. While I'm a software engineer and understand tight development schedules, I don't think I can forgive this. I mean, come on. I kill Bastilla in cold blood yet there she is (reborn) several minutes later with no explanation.

During two of my games I encountered bugs where I was locked into areas and not allowed to exit. The first time this happend I spent several hours debugging before I was able to resume my game by flushing the Xbox cache, loading a save file, deleting all existing save files, and saving the current game to a new save file. Needless to say it was not fun finding this "solution".

For all of KOTOR's copious amounts of dialog, the story is really a very simple good guy versus bad guy affair. I suppose you could say this about many stories, however, KOTOR pretends to be much more and then refuses to deliver. While there is lot's of Jedi/Force diatribe and doctrine, the light side versus dark side mechanics have no effect on the game or on the outcome of the story. You can be as nasty as you like and still get the "good" ending of the game if you do the right things in the final chapter. The characters certainly have lot's to say, but there are not many interactions that connect emotionally. Likewise, many conversations follow the same "you ask this, I say that, you ask again, I say let's get on with the mission" script.

My biggest disappointment with the story is that there was an incredible opportunity for a deep, moving love story (between the hero and Bastilla) but for some reason BioWare decided not to develop this. Just why BioWare decided to pull Bastilla out of the game for a good part of the story is beyond me. Bastilla was (probably) the most interesting character in the game. She was certainly the most critical character in developing the story between herself, the hero, and the republic. Even at the end, when you finally rescue Bastilla (if you succeed in convincing her to come back to the light side of the Force), BioWare pulls Bastilla out of the story again during the final battle. Just as George Lucas hinted at a great love story (in the last Star Wars) and failed to deliver, BioWare does the same in KOTOR.

Another character that had potential for great plot development was Canderous, but once again BioWare takes the bland road. Canderous (a Mandalorean, mercenary warrior) has killed many Jedi in the past and is now leaning well towards the dark side of the Force. So why didn't BioWare do something with this in the story? I was expecting Canderous to turn on me at some point or to align himself with the republic. Instead he does neither. Canderous is a killing machine at the beginning of the story and he is still a killing machine at the end. (Albeit, he has more respect for the hero by the end of the story, but really, like many of the other characters, Canderous does not grow throughout the story - he talks a lot and fills in much back story, but character growth is decidedly absent.

Graphically KOTOR is a mess. I kept trying to be less critical in this area, but KOTOR never ceased to offend. Blocky character models - check. Low resolution textures - check. Seams everywhere! (Yes... actual seams! Check.) The inability to move the camera more than two inches above or below the line of sight - check. A frame rate of no more than twenty frames per second (at best) - check. Visible pixels when viewing objects up close - check. Very visible LOD (level of detail) being drawn in as you move about - check. Clipping problems - check. Absolutely horrendous aliasing and texture warping problems - check. Fog - check. If you can name a graphical problem, KOTOR probably has it. Also annoying is the fact that BioWare obviously figured out how to create a couple of Xbox graphic effects and then decided to use these everywhere. Thus, whether appropriate or not, every object has the one "reflective sheen" effect applied to it. Ditto for the "florescent glow" effect.

Bugs in the gameplay also extend to the graphics. Animation freezes are common. CG film sections stutter and have noticeable compression defects. During the last two chapters of the game, white and purple blotches appeared at the top of the screen every time I changed areas. Characters stand in thin air and move through solid objects. Of all the Xbox games I own, KOTOR is by far the least graphically impressive. As I said before, there is a good case to be made that KOTOR is one of the worst looking Xbox games.

Now we come to level and quest design. This is the aspect of KOTOR that has to be the blandest part of the game. The level design can be summed up as follows: Go to new world. Complete a bunch of quests in dungeons that all look the same until someone gives you what you need to find the Star Map on that world. Find Star Map. Go to next world. I was expecting much more from KOTOR's levels than map-driven, dungeon crawls through endless corridors. If the battle system were more engaging, perhaps I would have enjoyed this part of the game, but as it is, I just felt as though every dungeon was a hindrance to moving the story ahead. A few of the quests presented interesting moral decisions, but this was the exception rather than the norm. The majority of the tasks consisted of banal "go get this item and bring it back to me" item fetching. One final comment on KOTOR's level design: many of the levels feature doors that don't open. These doors don't look like other non-opening doors in the game (in fact, they look like doors that can be opened). What seems to have happened is that content was meant to go in these places, but the developers ran out of time. This (along with the many bugs left in the game) really gives KOTOR a feeling of being unfinished.

Arguably, most RPGs live and die by the story they have to tell and by the quality of their battle systems. KOTOR relies less on its battle system than many RPGs, however, you'll still fight a lot of battles in the game. The key problem with KOTOR's battle system is that it tries to pull together aspects of real-time systems (from PCs) and turn-based systems (from consoles). In the end, KOTOR gets neither system right and what we are left with is an annoying hodge podge that just isn't fun. Real time battle systems are all about involvement, excitement, and action. In KOTOR, you don't make the battle moves (the game does for you) so the key element of the real-time experience is missing. Turn based battle systems are all about understanding your opponent and devising careful strategies to win. In turn based systems there are usually strong elemental and deity alignments. Thus, characters worshiping one particular god may be strong or weak against others. Likewise, characters of specific elemental alignments (water, fire, ice, earth, etc.) will have various strengths and weaknesses. KOTOR completely misses the boat in this regard. There is the odd place where resistance to electric forces comes into play, but for the most part there are no perceptible alignments. Because battles play out in real time with all characters making their moves simultaneously, the strategic, chess-like quality of good turn based systems is absent. I won every battle in the game with the following strategy: queue up starting commands for each character at the beginning of battle. Watch battle play out while feeding health potions at critical intervals. In short, I found KOTOR's battle system very unrewarding and just like the level design, a hindrance to moving the story forward.

Although I didn't mention this at the start of my comments, I'd be remiss if I didn't at least touch on KOTOR's mini-games. There are three (shooting, swoop bike racing, and a card game called Pazak). At about the quarter-way mark in the game you can race swoop bikes or play Pazak any time you like. The shooting levels are fixed at specific points in the game.

I'll get the shooting out of the way first. Basically, the shooting levels amount to not much more than "shoot all enemies on the screen to progress". These sections are short, light-hearted fun, but they feel like they are thrown in just to add variety to the game. Almost no time was spent to make the shooting sections deep and exciting, or to tie them in with the rest of the game. I guess what I'm really saying here is that the few brief shooting encounters could have easily been left out and KOTOR would not have suffere. The shooting sections don't really add or take much away from the game.

Swoop bike racing seriously got on my nerves - so much so that I just stopped playing the races entirely. Like the shooting, swoop racing is very simple. However, in the swoop tracks you must finish within a specified time limit. The first time limit set on each track is fairly easy to beat (you can usually beat it within a few tries). All the other times on the tracks are insanely difficult and insanely un-fun.

At each racing venue, you always race on the same track. Each time you beat a race, the next race you have to beat is the same track with a lower time limit. The problem with this is that the second and third times are designed so that you must do everything perfectly to win. Miss the starting gun by a fraction of a second? You've lost the race even before you've started. Miss one single accelerator pad? You've lost the race. Shift at the wrong time? You've lost the race. Worst of all, there is no way to cancel a race once it has started and the races have horrible load times both before and after the race. To race one 20 second round you must endure 60 seconds of pre and post race loading and cut-scenes. Ugh!

At one track I tried over 500 times to beat the final (3rd) challenge time. I'd get within 2 tenths of a second of getting the required time, but I could not get the required time. Perhaps I was tired I thought. So I tried again the next day. After 200 more tries, I gave up again. Finally, after letting the tracks sit for a few days, I tried again. This time I was smarter. After a few races I gave up and said "to heck with this... why punish myself by playing a poorly designed mini-game". That was the best decision I made because it allowed me to continue on with the rest of the game. I've got no problem when a game ramps up the difficulty, but when the difficulty goes from doable to impossible inside of twenty seconds, I just don't want to play anymore.

One final word of frustration about the swoop racing. All throughout the races different riders would say "you need to upgrade your bike, go to so-and-so store". I'd go to "so-and-so store", but not a single swoop bike part was to be found. In fact, I played through the entire game twice (and a third time from middle to end) and never found a single swoop bike upgrade part. I must conclude that this is another part of KOTOR that was left "unfinished".

The last mini game is the card game Pazak. Pazak is a blackjack-like game played with a hand of four cards. You can draw a card from the deck (which you can't see before hand) or you can draw a known card from your own hand. The idea is to get the closest score to twenty without going over. Pazak is actually quite enjoyable once you get a deck with enough "flip" cards. Flip cards are cards whose sign can be changed from positive to negative. This is the key to winning at Pazak. With flip cards the size of your hand effectively doubles from four to eight so you have a lot more cards to tilt the odds in your favor. While Pazak is a simple card game, I actually had quite a bit of fun with it.

So... in the end, what do I think of KOTOR? Well... it seems like a very unfinished game with lot's of bugs and poor graphics. I certainly liked the well-voiced dialog, but I'd have liked the game a whole lot better if the dialog actually told a deeper, more emotionally involving story. BioWare wanted KOTOR to be the Xbox's Final Fantasy. Unfortunately, I'd say KOTOR has a long way to go before it approaches the level of quality found in Squaresoft's premier RPG series.

The last two Star Wars films (Episode 1 and Episode 2) were dismal failures. Featuring scripts that could have better been written by a class of ten year olds and atrociously painful acting, George Lucas didn't seem to realize that all the special effects in the world can't save a poor story. One of the reasons I think KOTOR is getting such glowing reviews is that it tells a better story (with better acting) than George Lucas could produce. I agree that KOTOR tells a better story than Episode 1 and Episode 2, but I think KOTOR has to be judged on its own merits. Just because the films were awful does not immediately raise the game (which seems merely good) to a level of greatness.

Okay folks. That's my rant for the day. I know there are those whom will strongly disagree with me and that's okay. If you are loving every minute of KOTOR, don't let my taste for the game dissuade you. KOTOR is unquestionably a game with huge scope made by a developer that was trying to make a great game - not just an average game, but a great game. In this case (and not for lack of effort on BioWare's part), I don't happen to think greatness was achieved. Even with all the best of intents, not all projects turn out as well as their creators envisioned them.

RH.

greg000123
02-25-2004, 07:30 PM
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?! KOTOR is an awsome game! And it is finished, developed all the way. I have never encountered any bugs. A average RPG???... thats probbably why it won best rpg

Suicides-by-Steve
02-25-2004, 07:49 PM
I never read the majority of your post Rich, but I got the gist of it. I dislike the game a whole lot. Mainly because of the limited, enclosed, and extremely linear levels, coupled with the multiple-choice storyline. Basically all you're needed for is to fight the combats, and game guides you the rest of the way, safely into one of the different endings. In fact, I haven't even finished the game, and I would be surprised if I did. A very non-violent, user friendly PC game, intended for kids, and RPG newbies... or those with consoles... since there's hardly anything better in terms of RPG games out there. For us PC users, we have a plethora of options available to us in the realm of RPG's. Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter NIghts, Morrowind, Silent Storm (or any of the tactical RPG strategy games out there), Arcanum, etc, etc. KotOR may deserve RPG of the Year award for the consoles, but hardly the PC.

Renzatic Gear
02-25-2004, 08:00 PM
Meh, that's all I have to say about it. When I first fired it up and went through the training session that makes up the first portion of the game I figured it might turn out okay. About an hour and a half later I realised that the game was rather repetitive and unimaginative and decided to shelf it.

I'd say that if you're a huge Star Wars fan you'll probably like it simply cuz it's more of what you love..but for anyone else, like huge PC RPG freaks like Steve here, I wouldn't recommend it.

"The Game"Evolution
02-25-2004, 11:16 PM
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?! KOTOR is an awsome game! And it is finished, developed all the way. I have never encountered any bugs. A average RPG???... thats probbably why it won best rpg

No other RPG on the console front or the PC front was better than KOTOR.Bottom line.It wasnt a fluke that KOTOR won best RPG of 2003.And it would'nt be a fluke nor a surprise if once again the next candidate for RPG of the year ends up coming from the Xbox/PC yet again either.2004 has plenty of RPG's to pick from.

Suicides-by-Steve
02-26-2004, 12:57 AM
No other RPG on the console front or the PC front was better than KOTOR.

Gothic 2 is and was better than KotOR... for sure!

http://www.jucaushii.ro/img/Gothic2/12.jpg

And yes, you CAN go over that hill in the distance and see what is on the other side, unlike KotOR.

moya
02-26-2004, 05:50 AM
I've just played and completed KotOR (PC version) myself and found it a frequently enjoyable (though limited) adventure/RPG-lite game. As far as bugs go, I came across one or two, but they never bothered me to the extent that they seem to bother Richard. (I suppose bugs are anyway less of an issue for the PC version since patches have been released.) To address your post directly, Richard, I understand your rant is influenced by the levels of hype this game has generated, but I for one don't think the game deserves such a severely critical bashing.

Yes, level design is limited compared to most free-form PC RPGs like Morrowind, Gothic etc. Yes, the light/dark side stuff doesn't have as much of an impact on the story as one might have hoped. And, yes, some of the sub-games are rubbish. For me, though, the game's charm lay in the way it captured the character and spirit of the original films. Being a Star Wars fan helps of course, but I couldn't help but feel a surge of excitement when green squadron broke through the Sith lines to assault the Star Forge because of what I'd accomplished.

Sure, the storyline is pretty straightforward good vs. evil, but then so were the original films. The beauty of episodes IV-VI, I think, is not in the complexity of the story nor clever twists in the plot, but in the way it's presented with such passion so as to make you believe in and care about what is happening on the screen. I got exactly the same feeling when playing KotOR.

As far as combat is concerned, I rather enjoyed it. I found it to be a satisfactory (if not ground-breaking) combination of real-time and turn-based that gave sufficient control to the player to be fun without becoming too central a part of the gameplay. Again, maybe the lightsabers helped matters, but I couldn't help but smile after taking on and defeating 3 Dark Jedi singlehanded. Although, having said that, I'd have liked the opportunity to select from a range of different lightsaber fighting moves and styles in addition to the "special" feats you can learn in the game.

T3KT0N
03-08-2004, 09:26 AM
Gothic's combat system ran circles around KOTOR's.
Much better response,fluidity and "moves".

Suicides-by-Steve
03-08-2004, 04:15 PM
I wouldn't say that at all. Hell, all you're doing is swinging a sword in Gothic- it's little more than button-mashing.

DBS
03-08-2004, 04:32 PM
I am enjoying KoTR being both a star wars/rpg fanatic. I have some force powers now and the game is more fun as I go on. Gothic fighting system was not that great to me but I did enjoy the game although I still think Blade of Darkness had a superior fighting system.

Friend_Bear
03-08-2004, 08:48 PM
I just completed Kotor and loved it, man I hate downers though.....you know the feeling after completing a game after spending so much time on it. lol

Friend_Bear
03-08-2004, 08:49 PM
My only real complaint is that it isn't very long...took me less than a week to complete

Kamokazi
04-29-2004, 03:10 PM
Wow. Somebody isn’t happy with this game.

First paragraph. I killed her and didn’t have her show up in the ending script. I don’t know if this was a PC version fix or what. You are making a huge deal of a miniscule detail. Yeah, some lazy programmer forgot to take her out of the ending sequence script. Big whoop.

I never had any issues with being stuck (played through twice, once light and once dark). I also have the PC version so that may have been it. Okay so there was a particular situational stuck issue. No game is perfect.

About the story, yeah it’s a good guy bad guy thing. Hmm…that actually sounds like pretty much every other SW movie, game etc out there. Dark vs. Light, Empire vs. Republic….noticing a trend? The story should be that basic at its core, but it had it’s a respectable share of twists. And there were no surprises at all…you saw the whole being Revan thing from a mile away right? “You can be as nasty as you like and still get the "good" ending of the game if you do the right things in the final chapter.” When I was playing this all-out dark, I wanted the republic to win, so I tried to play that way. Did you notice that not teaming up with Bastila on the unknown planet cause you to go from max dark to neutral? Hmm..not really much opportunity to make up all those dark points…so you aren’t completely ‘nasty.’

Bastilla love story thing: Yeah they could have given that a bit more work. Being out of commission for one planet (and a half, for the unknown world) does not constitute to missing a ‘good part of the story.’ In keeping with a consistent story, that was the minimum time needed for Malak to convert her to the dark side (which might I add is a nice but not unexpected plot twist), And then you can get to play the good guy by changing her back. The final battle should be a 1 on 1 duel, old-fashioned Jedi style. In the movies, 2-on-1 duels are minimal and they always get separated/killed/wounded so it ends up being 1-on-1.

I’ll agree with you there, Canderous would have been interesting if he had a bigger part in the story. Was it needed? No, the story is great as it is.

Wow…the X-Box version must be total crap graphic-wise. Sorry about your luck. The extent of my graphical gripes would be some blockier models and split second rendering glitches that I see in every game. Nothing major. It ran quite smooth on a mid-upperish gaming system (P4 2.4, GeForce FX 5600) Sure it’s no Morrowind, or that Gothic II, but I don’t see much reason to harp on the graphics. Yes there was no vertical tilt camera control, but that would have served no purpose but to examine the environment…I never needed it in combat at all.

Never had animation freezes, film skipping, nothing. Maybe an X-Box inherent bug? The only objects I could walk through were corpses that would disappear in due time anyway.

Yes, level design is very linear. This game is designed to be like a SW movie…wandering around the dune sea or the sewers in Taris not going anywhere in particular would not make for a very interesting movie. Just because it’s an RPG does not mean it’s required to be non-linear. Keeping the plot moving is how this game was meant to be played. I’ll agree with you on the part about there were too many ‘go get this item’ missions. And for unopenable doors, I think they added them just so there was not a blank wall, not because they wanted more content.

The combat system is designed to be easy and fun, so anyone can pick it up and play it. For strategy types you can set the pause to pause at each turn. There are several resistance types and shields and whatnot. I’ve played on all difficulty levels…if you prefer turn-based strategy, play the hard, because you will notice the resistances playing a much bigger role. It’s not Final Fantasy, but it does as much as it can. If you like the action, play easy. There is no way to incorporate both systems entirely. Active clicking to do this or that still has to wait for the turn, so reflex-based action is out. And if strategy was too much more important, playing in real-time would be near impossible because you would get the crap beat out of you because the computer can make critical decisions immediately, while you may lose a few rounds of combat due to reflexes. And when dealing with parties, you want auto-attack functions. The action is still good because the animations are not repetitive and look really good(you kick people when you see an opening while using your saber) I’ve used similar systems to this one before, and I would have to say I actually like this one the best. There is no combination that will make both sides 100% happy, so if you are that concerned about turn-based combat, then go play something else.

Mini Games

Turret-you hit the nail on the head here.

Swoop-yes, it gets impossibly difficult...you have more patience than I, because I never went far enough to get people telling me to upgrade my swoop, but I don’t ever remember seeing swoop parts for sale.

Pazaak-I never got around to playing it...kept telling myself I was going to.

BioWare wanted KotOR to be the X-Box’s Final Fantasy? That doesn’t make sense at all in my book. If they really did, I’ll take some of whatever they are smoking please.

SW1 and 2 were ‘fun’ movies, action and adventure, nothing like their predecessors. I don’t think KotOR got high reviews from that, I’m sure there was a small amount of SW bias, but the game is just lots of fun to go through and play, even if you are not a SW fan.

I think you came into this game expecting it to be something it wasn’t trying to be, and were a too harsh because of that. Also it seems that the X-Box version has a LOT more bugs than the PC version.

no.1gamer
04-29-2004, 03:27 PM
I was going to get this game for my PC, because of all the awards it won. But nearly everyone I've talked to says it's way overrated.

:(

I think I'll pass...

Suicides-by-Steve
04-29-2004, 04:10 PM
There'a alot of people that aren't really happy about this game. It's the case of the media totally hyping this game beyond belief.

PapaSmurf
04-29-2004, 07:54 PM
I would say thats just your opinion and we should just leave it at that. Everyones view is their own opinions. Steve will tell you it was overrated. Ok. Well I'll tell you go buy it right now. PC games were never rentable, I guess thats the advantage of having a console, but to be honest the only way your going to know if the game is good or not is for you to try it yourself. If your not going to try it because people say its overrated, I'd say your missing out on a good thing.

Also, since when does overrated mean bad. Game of the Year (which it got from a lot of people) is a big title and weight to carry. Maybe it didn't deserve all that, maybe everyone gave it a 10 out of 10. I guess if I thought the game was an 8 out of 10 the 10 out of 10 score would be overrated, but last time I checked giving a game an 8 out of 10 still means the game was a good game and I think thats the point.

Suicides-by-Steve
04-30-2004, 04:19 AM
Oh, but you CAN rent games. It's called go out and buy a game from EB, and if you don't like it, return it. I'm just warning people that want a good RPG to not bother. It's a limited, linear, and multiple-choice adventure, with no room to explore the great world of Star Wars. For people wanting a Star Wars/ NWN game, they need to look elsewhere. I don't believe I have ever said that the game is over-rated- I have agreed with people that have said this mind you. Now, that's where I'll be leaving it at!

no.1gamer
04-30-2004, 08:13 AM
I would say thats just your opinion and we should just leave it at that. Everyones view is their own opinions. Steve will tell you it was overrated. Ok. Well I'll tell you go buy it right now. PC games were never rentable, I guess thats the advantage of having a console, but to be honest the only way your going to know if the game is good or not is for you to try it yourself. If your not going to try it because people say its overrated, I'd say your missing out on a good thing.

Also, since when does overrated mean bad. Game of the Year (which it got from a lot of people) is a big title and weight to carry. Maybe it didn't deserve all that, maybe everyone gave it a 10 out of 10. I guess if I thought the game was an 8 out of 10 the 10 out of 10 score would be overrated, but last time I checked giving a game an 8 out of 10 still means the game was a good game and I think thats the point.

The funny thing about game of the year is that last years Splinter Cell won the GOTY. I won't totally dismiss SC as a bad game. But I really don't like the whole stealth niche genre. So needless to say I hated Splinter Cell.

I've pretty much lost all faith in the awards that video game critics give out to games now. It's almost as bad as the awards movie critics give to bad movies.

Suicides-by-Steve
04-30-2004, 03:59 PM
The funny thing is only a couple games really pull of the stealth-based genre with any grace. Thief and Far Cry do it wonderfully. Games that were touted to have it, and failed miserably include Splinter Cell, No One Lives Forever, and IGI. These games basically had a view "range" that once you stepped into it, however briefly, you were detected.

PapaSmurf
04-30-2004, 04:13 PM
They let you bring the games back? I've tried that before, but the package was opened and I figured that was it. Or did you do one of those played it trade it deals. Honestly how do buy the game, play not, not like it, and then take it back, their policy is if its opened you can't take it back. Bring it back as a used game, but never a full refund. Losing 20-30 bucks off a used game isn't my idea of renting.

Suicides-by-Steve
04-30-2004, 04:36 PM
EB has a little known policy (at least here in Canada) where if the package is returned within 14 days, you get a FULL refund. Come on face it. If you know where to get the games off the net, they are readily available. They know this, and take the chance that you haven't burned the game already- again, if you hate the game, and you WERE a pirate, why bother buying it to begin with? They then resell the game as used, or if its' in good condition- rewrap it, and resell it for full price. This policy keeps me coming back... again and again.

Friend_Bear
04-30-2004, 08:26 PM
I hate the american policy and game returns, in England you could take *ANY* game back within 10 days and get a full refund or exchange it for a different game, not in america you can't....if the package is opened in anyway, you can only exchange it for the same title or trade the game in, even if you brought it 10 minutes prior, but of course, you *have* to open the package in order to try the game.

As for piracy, I bet there is literally *tons* of real pirates on this board or at least visit the board, I don't pretend at all that I don't download games, because now and again i'll download a game if I can't find a descent demo and yes, if I like the game I *will* buy it, and if I don't like the game there is a magic way to get rid of it, called uninstall. lol But seriously though, I imagine thousands upon thousands of people downloading roms/isos from file sharing programs, usenet and ftps for the sole purpose of selling pirated games for profit, it sucks.

But then again, who can blame careful people who don't have much money and want a to buy a descent game when there is tons of trash out there? I bet every PC Game player has brought some games and found them to be utter junk and basically wasted time and money, I myself now and again fall into that category with Fifa 2004 today >.< So again, is it *right* to download a full game for testing purposes? Maybe the industry should introduce time limited full games, say a full weeks gameplay then you have the choice to buy the game or uninstall?

no.1gamer
04-30-2004, 10:50 PM
The funny thing is only a couple games really pull of the stealth-based genre with any grace. Thief and Far Cry do it wonderfully. Games that were touted to have it, and failed miserably include Splinter Cell, No One Lives Forever, and IGI. These games basically had a view "range" that once you stepped into it, however briefly, you were detected.

Heh...

:rolleyes:

I'm glad to see another Splinter Cell hater. I had more fun playing Enter the Matrix. I'm not even kidding.

If you guys think the no refund on computer software is bad, try getting burned on a MMORPG!

I paid 20 bucks for Anarchy Online. Then I paid like $10 for a month subscription to the server. The problem is that I didn't like it after week one. So I paid for 3 weeks of time I spent not playing Anarchy Online.

Now I only game online with free games. I play Warcraft 3 all the time. I've just started with Dungeon Siege though, so I haven't gone online yet. I like the single player game, so the multiplayer should be cool, right? If anyone's looking for a good deal on an action/RPG title you should go pick up Dungeon Siege and the expansion pack for 20 bucks. No online fee required.

Friend_Bear
05-01-2004, 12:21 AM
If you guys think the no refund on computer software is bad, try getting burned on a MMORPG!

I paid 20 bucks for Anarchy Online. Then I paid like $10 for a month subscription to the server. The problem is that I didn't like it after week one. So I paid for 3 weeks of time I spent not playing Anarchy Online.

Done that plenty of times, got burned by getting Final Fantasy XI, spent $50 on the game, then a further $13 a month, after 4 months I found the game to suck badly and cancelled, losing the software since if you cancel you lose your cd-key also, since it gets banned meaning i've got a game with absolute no use what-so-ever, except a reminder never to pay for online gaming again.

Suicides-by-Steve
05-01-2004, 04:34 AM
I'm glad to see another Splinter Cell hater.

Well, it's not that I hated it mind you, I just found that the stealth options kinda sucked. There was no real way to determine if you were visable or not to your opponents. I also hated the fact that though you had SO many ways to enter a building, and such cool ways of doing it- like anchoring a grapple and rappeling down the side of a building, you'd think that you could enter into the building through more than just one window, right? This is why I dislike console gaming so much- your options tend to be so limited. Let's pray that Thief III still has the same variety of ways to B&E a location than its' predecessors, and doesn't mimic SC or DE:IW.

thedarkmage
05-03-2004, 08:37 AM
I'd say papa smurf knows what he's talking about. The game may have been overrated, yes. And the game was linear. But it is still a good game. I wouldn't have given it a 10 out of 10 either, but an 8 or a 9 was very suitable. If you're like myself and are a huge Star Wars fan then you'll want to at least rent this game. Once you do that I think you will be surprise. I can't say I've ever played another quality Star Wars game besides this one. I couldn't get enough of chaning lightsaber colors and watching my character twirl them around. My point is, if you like Star Wars and you like RPGs, then give this game a try!!

Hieremias
05-03-2004, 09:57 AM
I'd say papa smurf knows what he's talking about. The game may have been overrated, yes. And the game was linear. But it is still a good game. I wouldn't have given it a 10 out of 10 either, but an 8 or a 9 was very suitable. If you're like myself and are a huge Star Wars fan then you'll want to at least rent this game. Once you do that I think you will be surprise. I can't say I've ever played another quality Star Wars game besides this one. I couldn't get enough of chaning lightsaber colors and watching my character twirl them around. My point is, if you like Star Wars and you like RPGs, then give this game a try!!
On the game's merits themselves I would only give it a 6/10. Being a Star Wars game though, and the fact that they had a decent Star Wars storyline, might bump it up to a 7. Not higher.

A reasonably enjoyable game, perhaps. But not worth anywhere near the level of hype it received, and there's a shopping list of better RPGs available on the PC--and at least one better RPG on the Xbox (Morrowind).

Suicides-by-Steve
05-03-2004, 05:01 PM
Yeah, I would be sticking to in-between 7 and 8 myself. And I have to mention, that I AM a huge SW fan. I'm just not blinded by my like of SW movies to just simply like any SW game pushed upon us.

infintum22
10-14-2004, 09:49 AM
I really didn't have that many complaints with kotor. Was it buggy? yes - never actually get to see the endings cos it froze everytime, i had to go watch them on a friends game. But besides that, the storyline kept me interested, there was enough dark/light decision type stuff to give me the illusion of some open endednes, even if what i did didn't change jack. I thoroughly enjoyed that battle system, though i never really used the backup characters, just focused on the main character and never really paused it. I had alot of fun with the minigames, the space shooter kind of got old fast, but it mixed things up a bit from the constant running around. pazaak was fun, though i always seemed to lose more money than i made, and as for the pod racing... i thought it was way to easy. maybe had to do one race twice and that was just cos i missed the time by a second or two. i spent quite a bit of time, just getting my race times real low. and that was pretty much the whole game. maybe it wasn't the best rpg, but i had a good time with it, and its so much better than fable. Just beat that game, it took a day, and there was NO story. nothing special with the battle system, no real effect from good or evil, level design much worse than kotor, talk about hype...

ron_tayan
10-14-2004, 02:40 PM
This game was garbage. I cant even place this game anywhere near the same level as the BG series or NWN. The controls were utterly pitiful. The graphics were unusually bland.....yet "system hogging" (P4 3.2ghz 500+ MB of Ram and 9800 Pro 128). lol I couldnt separate my party like in the BGs (have members of my party in different parts of the same map). ect ect ect

I played this game to that big monster in the sewers and lost interest. One day I may continue, but I just dont have the motivation.

If this game was deserving of "GOTY", then it's competition must have been overly mediocre.

Suicides-by-Steve
10-14-2004, 04:12 PM
I agree with you wholeheartedly Ron... Too bad that we didn't get NWN meets Star Wars. Now THAT would have been a smashing success, I'm sure. I got to the Wookie's home planet, and just got fed up with the game's fed ex, multiple choice storyline and quests. Maybe I'll play it again when KotOR 2 comes out...

Forestgoblin
10-14-2004, 09:27 PM
I had a blast with KOTOR, but I agree with the underdeveloped/over-rated assessment. The comment that it was the best RPG is a bit of a stretch (opinion only remember). I'm in the middle of Gothic 2 and I do think it is much better. The stricly linear aspect of KOTOR bothered me a great deal, especially when I walked into the desert and saw lights (am I remembering correctly?) outlining the area I could "explore." Gameplay was extremely repetitive as well, even though it was great to watch. But it was by no means ground-breaking (the combat) and could have benefited from some tweaking. I had no problems with bugs in this game and it ran flawlessly on my old machine, which could just barely handle Morrowind. Regarding the graphics, I thought the game was average and lacked in creativity; the level design is the same. The textures were rather simple and the models could have used some extra work. The levels were usually bland and uninspiring, and were without a doubt waaaaay to small. I'm surprised my character didn't become a claustrophobic nut case by the end of the game. The good/evil conflict was played out somewhat poorly and it never felt like the Sith were the near-invincible force the rest of the story suggested they were. In fact, I never died once even on the highest difficulty. I enjoyed Pazaak much more than I should have; the other two mini-games were a bit boring. In the end, I would have to disagree with the game of the year awards given to KOTOR. I'm not really sure what title I would have in its place, though. So, yeah, Richard. I hear you. Hopefully they will put a great deal more work into KOTOR 2. There is the potential for something truly great; hope they get it right.

Suicides-by-Steve
10-15-2004, 04:09 AM
Silent Storm and Gothic 2 were released for the PC in 2003. The former was a turn-based strategy RPG, while the latter is an action/adenture. Both excellent titles, worhty at least for nomination; then again, they're weren't too many released that year, IIRC.

notu
10-24-2004, 05:40 AM
At least it was better than NWN :p
But then NWN was only ever meant as an RPG tool so I guess you can't really compare them, except to say at least KOTOR was better than the standard module in NWN.

While the force powers were cool, there was only a couple you really used much.. choke as the dark side, and stun as the light side, and whatever skills you chose to start with became obsolete once you become a jedi anyway.. surely a jedi would be even more powerful with a lightsaber/blaster combo? ;)
I enjoyed the game enough the first time round to go though a second time as dark side instead of light, and it was still enjoyable playing it with the new dialogue
I'd like to give gothic2 a shot though... i thought the first one had potential, but it just didn't grip me

DBS
10-24-2004, 06:44 AM
I really dug Gothic and completed it. Gothic 2 I was so looking forward to and in many ways it is superior to the original although I am kind of bummed that you start out so weak after you became so powerful in the original. I wanted to continue just with more challenging enemies. Oh well...I will have fun with it once I put the time into it as being a novice again is not fun.


As for NwN I still think it is far more game for the money when you look at all you can add to it with mods and the expansion packs. KoTR I am really cold to and I am a star wars fan. I was looking forward to a rpg in the SW setting but this one isn't grabbing me. It is not very sharp looking and I guess I was expecting more. Bioware is one of my favorite dev teams so maybe my expectations were too high. I still have it on the hd and will try to get back into it before I write it off though.

I have to get through Bloodmoon now and I know I am a broken record but Morrowind is still my favorite to date. The pics of Morrowind 4 have me excited as well. I know it is a long while before expecting it but it sure looks sweet !!

Suicides-by-Steve
10-24-2004, 07:19 AM
except to say at least KOTOR was better than the standard module in NWN

Care to dispute this point? Prove it... I'll offer the rebuttal. The standard "module" can be downloaded from here (http://nwvault.ign.com/Files/modules/modulesTop2.shtml). The NWN OC was pretty lame, while the majority of FM modules far surpass any storyline in KotOR.

BaneNWN
10-24-2004, 11:15 PM
KOTOR Is imo an overrated game and in all honesty think it got the reviews it did because it has the Bioware Name associated with it.Sometimes when a developer puts out quality games for so long its like everything else gets a 9 or 10 score.A good example of this is Blizzard games.Games like warcraft 3 are mediocre games at best with not nearly the depth of other strategy games like WLBC 2 or 3 but yet Warcraft 3 scored considerably higher then Warlords Bc.The majority of scoring for a Rts game should be depth in which Warcraft lacks.But to shorten this up KOTOR got game of the year because imo none of the more well known developers came up with anything really special.If KOTOR came out any other year other then 2003 it wouldnt have even gotten in the top 3 it was just an overall weak year for the genre.I do agree though that Gothic 2 was far and away the best of the year.But Knowmatter what kind of crap Bioware puts out they will always be considered for game of the year because of there name.