Deus Ex 2 demo impressions [Archive] - VideoGameReview Forums

Renzatic Gear

11-21-2003, 11:13 AM

I haven't put more than a few minutes into it yet, so this is definately a basic first impression..bear with me here.

First off the game has MUCH better proudction values over the original DX. The music, atmosphere, everything is far more detailed and atmospheric in comparison. The interface isn't nearly as intrusive as you'd think it'd be and actually helps keep focus on the game without having to page through multiple screens for your inventory, quest stats and objectives...it's surprisingly good.

And the bad? The mouse control feels WAY too floaty for one, you expect a certain amount of precision when controlling an FPS character but the movement feels way too loose and undefined. This might be because the game is running at..oh..around 10-15 frames per second or so on my poor Geforce 3 with the options set to medium at 1024x768. It's definately a high end resource hog..if you have a G3 era budget card don't expect the game to run smoothly for you. It's definately the first of the next generation of PC games, if you got the hardware to run it you'll enjoy it..if not, either upgrade or stay away.

I'll post more about it later, right now I'm gonna spend a few minutes tweaking the hell out of the game to get it to run a little better.

Renzatic Gear

11-21-2003, 11:33 AM

http://www.fileplanet.com/download.aspx?f=133479

This is the only mirror I know of at the moment.

T3KT0N

11-21-2003, 11:34 AM

Would you have a link for the demo,preferably NOT on Gamespy,somehow I don't enjoy dat place.................
:)

T3KT0N

11-21-2003, 11:46 AM

Thank you.
:)
I'll deal with them hyenas accordingly

E.T.

11-21-2003, 04:43 PM

I notice multiple complaints of demo crashing due to MX cards [including G4 mx].
Others say CTD is due to P3 1K or less MHZ.

If you got the demo, & it runs ok, give your system specs [please].

Renzatic Gear

11-21-2003, 06:12 PM

I notice multiple complaints of demo crashing due to MX cards [including G4 mx].
Others say CTD is due to P3 1K or less MHZ.

If you got the demo, & it runs ok, give your system specs [please].

No crashes, but it's fairly choppy on my card.

Specs are:

Athlon XP 1700+
MSI KT3 Ultra motherboard (KT333)
Visiontek Geforce 3 (non Ti)
512Mb Corsair PC4000 DDR
Soundblaster Live

The game is designed with the Geforce 3 being the lowest end card you can have to play it in mind. Anything below it specwise, and this includes the Geforce 4 MX series, won't run on it.

E.T.

11-21-2003, 06:52 PM

Thoughts on DE2 being "dumbed down' or "streamlined" as Warren Spector mentioned?

Renzatic Gear

11-21-2003, 07:17 PM

(since I seem to be the only one replying around here I'll just keep running with it)

I do have one issue with the game that'll probably irk alot of people, and I can sum it up in one simple phrase:

"gameplay designed for the PC crowd, controls designed for the Xbox."

Yup, that's right. It's like Deux Ex met with Gothic II's control system, had a bastard kid and named it Invisible War. You scroll through your options using the movement keys, not use a cursor to select something you want with ease....and that text font. It's HUGE. Reading the books in the game is sort of annoying when they can barely fit 3 words across the screen.

Beyond that I can't find that much to complain about. Just like the original, though, the demo only gives you a very small example of what the full game is gonna be like. Overall you have more solutions to certain situations and you can pick 'n choose who you follow orders from. It feels like it's gonna be a far more open ended game than the original was.

Oh, and there is one small annoyance that won't exist in the retail. Ion Storm had to cut the amount of ambient conversations you overhear down to just one loop, so you'll hear alot of people saying the same stuff over and over and over again...also, they had to cut out the high res textures for the same reason. I expect the actual game will look a good bit better.

And yes..I'll post screenshots soon enough.

T3KT0N

11-21-2003, 07:22 PM

I'm sti;; waiting to d/load the demo.

Correction I'm d/loading now.
very slow d/load.The hyenas at file planet are screeching the brakes on the data flow..............

Rocketship-XM

11-21-2003, 07:51 PM

I just downloaded the demo, but to my surprise, I get 10 fps with the game at 640x480 and everything on minimum!!! This game chugs more than Halo does!!!!!! I have a:

AMD 2000+ TBred
MSI K7N2 Delta-L
512 PC 2700
Radeon 9600 Pro

Weird. I guess I'll have to wait for a driver update, because I should be able to run it on minimum. Anyone else having problems?

T3KT0N

11-21-2003, 08:38 PM

Played for 5 minutes,will spend more time manana.
GeForce 5900 Fx 128 Mbs RAM,on Dir.X 9.0b
P 4 2 Gigs 768 RAM
SB live 5.1
No tears here mates.
10280x1024
all maxed frames seem decent,25-40 fps (I think,no way to really count).No chop,no pixels no artifacts no tearing,smooth movement more or less.Light flickering ok in the club.Colors grungy and fine,transparencies nice,flesh tone right,overall design,well thought out.Some jaggies here and there(rough angular edges)
I saw no water yet to test the tough renderings.
.Music is ok I guess,never cared for it in those games.
And NICE varied textures for a change(hint).
The choice of faces is also on the lame side,this spikey hirsuite style is a bit too juvenile,hopefully there will be a better choice.I did not shoot anything yet,too soon,so I don't know about the weaponz..;)
But:
1)What are these AWFUL semicircular opaque sad excuses of an interface,smack in the middle of my beautaceous display??
This is unacceptable,I know I have a choice of colors,but this NEEDS to go,or shrink.

2)Wassamatta with the mouse control,feels like it had a doobie too many,it swims in a baaad way,makes me a bit woozy,how on earth can you play a shooter with a drunk mouse sliding on K-Y jelly?
:)
I will spend more time on it tomorrow,now that my KOTOR reloads are history(sly smile).
Look let's not dispair here, this thing has some high quality production values apparently.
We are talking Spector here, the man has proven himself,up to now..........

Renzatic Gear

11-21-2003, 09:00 PM

Hey T3K, quick piece of advice here..go into the menu and set hud opacity to 0. That way it disappears almost completely (you still have the compass displayed) until you cycle through your inventory. It makes playing the game FAR more enjoyable.

Suicides-by-Steve

11-21-2003, 10:11 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\">
Yup, that's right. It's like Deux Ex met with Gothic II's control system, had a bastard kid and named it Invisible War. </div>

I don't want to crap in your thread RG... BUT; I dunno, I think KotOR has the funky control scheme down pat... It's weird... By default RC'ing turns off the cursor that selects options, interacts etc, and THEN you have to hold down the Left button to move... very disorientating indeed. To make it WORSE you have to use the keys to rotate the camera by default. There are way around this... but still... I figure if I get a boost of energy, I should map this game to my Gravis Xterminator... It would work okay I think (at least as well as GTA III)

Renzatic Gear

11-22-2003, 12:54 AM

I don't want to crap in your thread RG... BUT; I dunno, I think KotOR has the funky control scheme down pat... It's weird... By default RC'ing turns off the cursor that selects options, interacts etc, and THEN you have to hold down the Left button to move... very disorientating indeed. To make it WORSE you have to use the keys to rotate the camera by default. There are way around this... but still... I figure if I get a boost of energy, I should map this game to my Gravis Xterminator... It would work okay I think (at least as well as GTA III)

Eww. That does sound pretty funky. At least DX2 is easily playable...just sorta weird in alot of aspects.

But still, you'd think that Bioware would've made it a bit easier to play on the PC considering that's where most of their experience lies.

T3KT0N

11-22-2003, 04:42 AM

Wow 3 54 am.
It was 20 years ago(seems) that I could stay up and be coherent at these wee hours!!
:)
I'll spend some time with DX now.

Opacity setting is working great.
Went looking for the chopper this time,nice gizmos and hacking stuff,I luv the stun thingies,also carrying a body is easy but the body's image gets in the middle of the visual field,so if you go down steps beware,I saw many interactive stuff,good.
But this mouse control and the woozy movement makes me nauseous.
Crap ,I had the SAME issue with RTCW.
I can't play this thing more than a couple of minutes at a time.
:(

E.T.

11-22-2003, 08:28 AM

Ammunition unified, lock pick & multi-tool combined?? Say it isnt so!
If this type of interface is continued in full version, "streamlined" would be a polite way of descibing the Invisible Wars dual platform interface.
[read that console interface]. :(

T3KT0N

11-22-2003, 10:32 AM

The interface is easy enough,and fine(now that I made the opacity 0),especially with the tips poping in telling you what each thing does.I do not thing that the tools are unified.
It is definitely a PC game,to my eyes,no consolitis here..........
Only the movement needs to be patched.

E.T.

11-22-2003, 11:44 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">The interface is easy enough,and fine(now that I made the opacity 0),especially with the tips poping in telling you what each thing does.I do not thing that the tools are unified.
It is definitely a PC game,to my eyes,no consolitis here..........
Only the movement needs to be patched.</div>

By chance T3KTON, did you play the original Deus Ex: Conspiracy?
Comparing DE1 to DE2, Im under the impression interface has been made too easy [dumbed down from original].

Im also believe that the # of augs that can be carried @ any one time are less, & that the skill system has been dropped......along with specified hit point ares,.... but thats just my rambling of anticipation for a game I've been anticipating for three years or so.

T3KT0N

11-22-2003, 12:36 PM

Not only I played it but it was the only solo game that I replayed twice.
I loved it and for a long time I was advocating publicly that this "melding" of game genres was the real PC game's future.
I still believe it.

This one I played it only a little since the mouse and movement bothers me,but I'm sure it will be fixed before release,so I do not know about the detailed workings of it,it has the highest production values that I have seen,since Splinter Cell(which to my eyes was spectacular).
I have faith that Spector will deliver.Try the demo,late at night there is no wait for the d/load from the Game-Spy hyenas.

E.T.

11-22-2003, 01:54 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\">Not only I played it but it was the only solo game that I replayed twice.
I loved it and for a long time I was advocating publicly that this "melding" of game genres was the real PC game's future.
I still believe it.

This one I played it only a little since the mouse and movement bothers me,but I'm sure it will be fixed before release,so I do not know about the detailed workings of it,it has the highest production values that I have seen,since Splinter Cell(which to my eyes was spectacular).
I have faith that Spector will deliver.Try the demo,late at night there is no wait for the d/load from the Game-Spy hyenas.</div>

Thanks, Im trying to hold out for full version, demo is tempting...

Renzatic Gear

11-22-2003, 02:24 PM

Wow 3 54 am.
It was 20 years ago(seems) that I could stay up and be coherent at these wee hours!!
:)

lol, I normally don't stay up this late..but I'm enjoying the last week I'm off before I get my new job by mostly sitting around and staying awake til the godawful hours of the morning. ;)

ET...you might as well try the demo out to see if you like it. From what I can tell there aren't any spoilers worth mentioning and it'll help you see if you like the new direction the series is taking.

It does seem a bit simplified at first, but if you actually take the time to sit down and enjoy it (instead of finding things to whine about like most people are) you'll find that there's plenty of room for strategy, deep gameplay, and difficult situations to work through in the retail game. The core gameplay remains the same, but alot has been changed. We're not gonna get a Deus Ex for idiots in Invisible War, which is everyones main concern over the game.

E.T.

11-22-2003, 03:31 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\">lol, I normally don't stay up this late..but I'm enjoying the last week I'm off before I get my new job by mostly sitting around and staying awake til the godawful hours of the morning. ;)

ET...you might as well try the demo out to see if you like it. From what I can tell there aren't any spoilers worth mentioning and it'll help you see if you like the new direction the series is taking.

It does seem a bit simplified at first, but if you actually take the time to sit down and enjoy it (instead of finding things to whine about like most people are) you'll find that there's plenty of room for strategy, deep gameplay, and difficult situations to work through in the retail game. The core gameplay remains the same, but alot has been changed. We're not gonna get a Deus Ex for idiots in Invisible War, which is everyones main concern over the game.</div>

Glad to hear you like it, I pre-ordered full version last week. ;)

I loved the original so much, the chatter about DE2 is irresistable :)

matthewcraig

11-23-2003, 06:54 AM

Spent most of my time playing with the object physics. Interesting! You can tell they spent a long time on it. Pick up an object like a metal barrel and then throw it with the left mouse button (rmb to drop). That thing FLIES! I was tossing the metal barrels from the rack by where you start in the demo all the way to the helipad. I started throwing them into the upstairs window like basketball. So, of course, I started throwing around the bad guys I had stunned. They have a surprising number of object points. Toss one into the air and they'll crumble onto the ground in a very lifelike way. Toss one onto a barrel and they form around the barrel like each part of the body has weight. It's pretty spooky how well that works. I'd only seen this before in this demo <a href="http://jet.ro/dismount/">Stair Dismount</a> (Very fun..) So, is this the first program to use such life-like models?

matthewcraig

11-23-2003, 07:17 AM

I found this at another site regarding tweaking the demo:

First, go into the main folder, select the "User.ini" file, and deactivate "read-only." For some reason this file was set to read-only by default and this prevented the demo from saving your personal settings when you entered a new level or restarted the demo.

Then open User.ini and find the four movement speeds ("W=Move*=1.000000"). Change "1.000000" to "0.800000." This helps with the floaty mouse control and brings movement speed more in line with the original DX (you can, of course, change "1.000000" to another value if you so wish).

Then go into the Default.ini file (in the "System" directory) and change "FOV__d=61" to "FOV__d=68" (or 69 or 70). This will place the HUD closer to the edges of the screen; it turns out the default setting is for the Xbox version, where the HUD is further away from the edges so as to avoid getting cut off by TV overscan. Since this isn't so much an issue with PC monitors, change it ASAP. It's a lot better-looking. Change the settings for Volumetric Lighting and Trilinear Filtering from OFF to ON and change "CacheSizeMegs" from "1" to about 20. Change "MouseLagThreshold" from 75 to 0. Change "Use32BitTextures" to "TRUE" (if your card can handle it). If you want more realistic damage (including one-hit-kill headshots), find the "Difficulty" section and change the values for "Difficulty_AI_Damage_[insert difficulty level here]__d" to about 5.0.

Rocketship-XM

11-23-2003, 08:00 AM

For ATI users, the 3.9 drivers fix the performance issues. I can now max out settings at 1024x768 with no problems.

This game is such a breath of fresh air from your typical brainless shooter. Right now the one thing I can complain about is that stupid spiked hair--give me a break.....

ShotgunShy

11-23-2003, 10:18 AM

AAAaakh!! All this talk of DX2 is killing me!

Freakin PC, I need to upgrade it if I want to play all the fab games that are coming out. I need to save up dammit! So there's absolutely no way I can expect to play DX2 on a GeForce 2 MX huh? Thought so ... :(

E.T.

11-23-2003, 12:08 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\">AAAaakh!! All this talk of DX2 is killing me!

Freakin PC, I need to upgrade it if I want to play all the fab games that are coming out. I need to save up dammit! So there's absolutely no way I can expect to play DX2 on a GeForce 2 MX huh? Thought so ... :(</div>

From one of our site sponsors, some price comparing on G4 ti cards:
http://www.bizrate.com/buy/products.xpml?cat_id=405&keyword=g4%20ti%204200&lp=1&mkt_id=10861725&rf=got&url_id=569734

Im amazed @ the various pricing for same model G4 cards, as always, it pays to shop. This card would be an economical solution to upgrading to a viable GPU for future gaming [& Invisible War too ;) ].

[ck your pm re: user profile].

ShotgunShy

11-23-2003, 12:41 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\"><div class=\"smallfont\"></div>

From one of our site sponsors, some price comparing on G4 ti cards:
http://www.bizrate.com/buy/products.xpml?cat_id=405&keyword=g4%20ti%204200&lp=1&mkt_id=10861725&rf=got&url_id=569734

Im amazed @ the various pricing for same model G4 cards, as always, it pays to shop. This card would be an economical solution to upgrading to a viable GPU for future gaming [& Invisible War too ;) ].

[ck your pm re: user profile].</div>

Thanks for the link E.T. Some pretty impressive prices there. Unfortunately the reason why I'm stuck with my PC is because it's a laptop and getting a desktop right now is not too viable for me.

(and it seems like i'm not receiving any pm's either. there's nothing in my inbox...)

Renzatic Gear

11-23-2003, 01:50 PM

Since the Geforce FX 5950 has come out the 128 meg FX 5900, which used to be the high end GFX card, has plummeted in price bigtime. Just 3 months ago it was going for 300 clams, now you can grab one off of Pricewatch for $150-200. This huge ass pricedrop has had me deeply reconsidering which graphics card I wanna get next, the R9800 or it...

That's the one big problem with buying computer stuff...that nice piece of state-of-the-art computer hardware you paid 200 bucks for when you got it will drop down to 50 bucks within 3 months.

E.T.

11-23-2003, 03:11 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\"><div class=\"smallfont\"></div>

Thanks for the link E.T. Some pretty impressive prices there. Unfortunately the reason why I'm stuck with my PC is because it's a laptop and getting a desktop right now is not too viable for me.

(and it seems like i'm not receiving any pm's either. there's nothing in my inbox...)</div>

ShotgunShy: your users name is listed twice in data base.
Changing password should NOT have caused glitch [profile loss].
Re: Not receiving PM's: be sure its toggled on, them see if pm shows up. If not, fill out all profile values & click "submit'"
PM me if possible w/results.
Post further correspndence under Site Feedback; Att:E.T.

[Apologies to RG for using thread as com link w/user.]

Renzatic Gear

11-23-2003, 04:00 PM

lol, it's quite alright. ;)

T3KT0N

11-23-2003, 04:32 PM

Yo,
hombres,
I bought the GeForce 4 5900 which is a 256 bit card,albeit 128 MBs for about 200 some months ago,through a promo.
Now it should be less than that.
If you don't want to spend a fortune and STILL be able to play fantastically,Doom III,DX2,and H/Life2,or UT2k3 wit havg 40-80 fps (depending on the map glithces)you should consider this gem.
It has DVI,out(not that I use it)dual monitor support,temperature monitors(yes they'll scream if the card goes higher than whatever setting you put it on,all kinds of customiseable settings,AND 2 settings(if you don't feel like micromanaging)like default:
The 2D performance as its called is the regular speed,
while the 3D performance SAFELY,overclocks the card to 400 without risks.
Additionally,they put two smaller fans on it ,and replaced the one BIG that was noisy(it sounds the same like my old Ti4400(which I burned overcklocking).
As a footnote for the card has glow-lights(!!),in case you have a case window and you like looking at the dust-bunnies dancing with the cobwebs,while the PC defragments.
:)
After numerous previous generations Radeons,and 2 GeForce older cards ,I STRONGLY recommend this realistically priced gem.
:)

T3KT0N

11-23-2003, 06:16 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\">[QUOTE=matthewcraig]I found this at another site regarding tweaking the demo:

First, go into the main folder, select the "User.ini" file, and deactivate "read-only." For some reason this file was set to read-only by default and this prevented the demo from saving your personal settings when you entered a new level or restarted the demo...................

First off,thank you mathewcraig for finding these rare tweaks

I am a bit familiar with these files since the engine is the same like UT2k3 and they are similar,so here is what is right and what wrong on those tweaks.

1)There is no way to undo the read-only setting,whether you try the entire DX file,the entire system file,or selectively the User.ini and the DXuser.ini foer starters.So the point of trying the actions below is moot (at least on my system) yet I did play with the settings.
1a)User.ini,Has no Mouse=W=Move parameter,it has a mouse=W plain with no values at all.
2)I found the 4 W=Move in the default.ini,I changed it but the mouse still is a bit drunk,and movement got slower.BUT,lower down there are some other commands about camera move and snapping and reaction,but since they are a bit complicated I do NOT want to do the try-and screw method so I leave it as is

3)The FOV is set to 68,I changed to 71 saw a bit of an improvement on the HUD size/location

4)The trilinear etc settings I changed them it looks a tad better,but the game looks good anyway in this early stage

5)Changed the mouse threshold did not experience much of a difference,( i suspect the game is defaulting to standard values all the time)

This Default .ini is big and also carries all kind of long typed footnotes from the developpers to themselves,it even has commands for Garret(Thief I,II)so whoever fudges there should be careful,since many parameters are still in unfinished mode.

I did not play with the AI difficulty setting since I'm still snooping around in this very rich game,even in that limited demo there are a ton of things to look,interact(thanks for the barrel tip),I even got killed by greasels.
This game is a whale of novelties and richness.
The full release,provided it's not buggy should be FANTASTIC.

I also saw some Multi-player commands and parameters ,is it going to include multiplayer,or is this just an engine leftover?
Again thanks for the tweaks.
:)

Renzatic Gear

11-23-2003, 07:05 PM

Stuff :)
You already have a nice, speedy comp so you won't notice the mouselag as much as the slower folks will...if at all. But if you ever see the game drop below 20 FPS it becomes immidiately obvious and renders the game almost unplayable til you tweak the .ini file.

Something else that's pretty interesting about browsing through the ini files..there's LOADS of Thief 3 settings embedded inside it along with the DX2 stuff and it actually gives you a good idea of how the game is gonna play. You have different strengths of sword swings and 4 styles of blocking manuvers, the light gem settings, Garrett's body awareness settings, torch and shadow settings, and loads of other stuff.

It gives you the impression that ISA thought of alot of cool features with Thief 3 and decided to retrofit em into DX2 to make the game a little better. Anything having to do with sneaking in the game is labeled as a T3 function.

I'll list em out right fast, it'll make the thread long as hell but all the Thief fans around here will find this really interesting...

[T3Settings]
BodyAwarenessMode=1
GarrettFootstep=1
PlayAmbientSound=1
PlayTorchSOund=1
DrawHUD=0
HighlightMinLevel=0.5
HighlightMaxLevel=0.76
HighlightAdd=0.02
GhostSpeed=400
CurrentDifficulty=NORMAL
Lookspring=false

[LightGemSettings]
SneakLightModifier=0.1
WalkLightModifier=0.2
RunLightModifier=0.3
StopLightModifier=0
MinWallDistance=32
WallLightModifier=-0.2
CrouchLightModifier=-0.1
InterpolationRate=0.2
(DX2 doesn't have anything similar to a light gem in look or function)

[T3 Fonts]
Papyrus14__t=Papyrus_21,0.86,0.80
Papyrus20__t=Papyrus_21,1.0,0.80
VTCGoblinHand13__t=VTCGoblinHand_18,0.72,0.80
VTCGoblinHand14__t=VTCGoblinHand_18,0.77,0.80

[T3 Combat Settings]
[blackjacked]
RequiredTags = +blackjacked
Flags = NoRotation | NoTurningAnims
[backstabbed]
RequiredTags = +backstabbed
Flags = NoTurningAnims
[attack_jab_high]
RequiredTags = +attack_jab_high
[attack_jab_mid]
RequiredTags = +attack_jab_mid
[attack_jab_low]
RequiredTags = +attack_jab_low
[attack_swing_left]
RequiredTags = +attack_swing_left
[attack_swing_right]
RequiredTags = +attack_swing_right
[attack_enraged_left]
RequiredTags = +attack_enraged_left
[attack_enraged_right]
RequiredTags = +attack_enraged_right
[attack_finishing]
RequiredTags = +attack_finishing
[block_1]
RequiredTags = +block_1
[block_2]
RequiredTags = +block_2
[block_3]
RequiredTags = +block_3
[block_4]
RequiredTags = +block_4
[fatigued]
RequiredTags = +fatigued
Flags = NoTurningAnims

Hmm...wonder if ISA left em in there as a treat for the hardcore fans.

E.T.

11-23-2003, 07:18 PM

I did not play with the AI difficulty setting since I'm still snooping around in this very rich game,even in that limited demo there are a ton of things to look,interact(thanks for the barrel tip),I even got killed by greasels.
This game is a whale of novelties and richness.
The full release,provided it's not buggy should be FANTASTIC.

I also saw some Multi-player commands and parameters ,is it going to include multiplayer,or is this just an engine leftover?
Again thanks for the tweaks.
:)[/QUOTE]</div>

Thanks for posting feedback on Invisible War.
Got "killed by Greasels" eh? I take it these cudly creatures area bit more menacing than the originals were in DE:Conspiracy.
Good to hear you find positve elements in demo & hope for full version. ;)

T3KT0N

11-23-2003, 07:20 PM

Here is what I know since my UT2k3 foraging into these files:
MANY times developers being lazy enough use the same generic file for many games(hell I found similar settings in Splinter Cell using the name UT2k3).That's why you not only see Garett=The Thief ,there but you'll see multiplayer parameters and T3 which are the Unreal parameters,built for Thief.

Now if you read my corrected post above(you must have posted before my corrections that took me 30 mins trial & error ;))
here is what I found out:
This game uses the "Unreal Warfare " engine.
This engine and code,surprise surpise is NOT identical to the UT2k3 engine BUT a version developped(surpise again) for the blighted consoles!!!namely the Box!!)
So,fudging these files proves useless since I do not know the trick to UNDO the default "read-only" thingie;(

I've been at it since 9 pm, and I got tricked by the similarity,now I see ....
You can change some settings in the Default.ini,but most revert to default,even the kbd settings and the video resolution.
If you manage to fix things tell me ,I'm going to bed.(geezer time for me)
Still that game is amazing.

Renzatic Gear

11-23-2003, 07:32 PM

The warfare engine isn't a console specific version of Unreal, it was originally supposed to be a 3rd game in the series alongside the singleplayer Unreal 1 & 2 and the multiplayer specific UT2k3.

The game itself ended up being ditched, but I believe they still market the code for other companies to use since its so modable. Hence why ISA decided to use it, the only thing thats left out of the Warfare engine is the basic backbone..the sound and graphics engine have been completely rewritten from scratch.

T3KT0N

11-24-2003, 05:30 AM

Did you manage to change the files through properties?
In my case it reverts to read only as soon as I look at it again.
Now re: the engine

I beg to differ there,
according to the info we had,(my buddies at dslr/UT,were trying to get into the beta testing team,and had some access to Epic,it never happened but that's a different story) way before UT2k3 was released,developers started working a bit earlier on it and in parallel with the UT engine(that was developed by a different team,the one that made the Wheel of Time) using the same root.

The Warfare engine was intended to work for the Box.It was even completed earlier ,and there was speculation that the game would be released first on the box.

I haven't seen any info about the engine being ditched.

There is a lot of conflicting info as per the why any decision was taken ,for a while there was speculation that the Box would be launched with 2 exclusive games(Halo and UT),then,when UT2k3 was released ,it was buggy enough to initiate speculation that it was rushed.

Additionally the 2 codes share the exact same net-play code, that there was talk to let XBox players get online on the regular UT2k3 servers,in order to showcase XBox's online play capabilities but that was proven to be a bad idea from the playtesting results .

That's what I know about the 2 different engines,and this where my info is based.

I might have missed something though and if you know for a fact that this engine was ditched I would like to read more about it.

Richard Hobbes

11-24-2003, 07:18 AM

Everyone,

I had great hopes for the Deus Ex 2 demo. My first reaction was a huge thumbs down to Ion Storm and to Eidos for only putting the demo file up on the notoriously slow FilePlanet system. My second reaction hasn't been much better. After waiting a few hours in the FilePlanet queue to get the file, the demo crashes while starting up with a "pixel shader 1.1 support or higher required" error. I've got an nVidia GeForce 4 MX 440 graphics card that I thought was relatively new, however, after playing many games, I now realize that seemingly the GeForce 4 MX 440 is only a GeForce 4 in name, not in features and specs. Can anyone clarify what is going on here? Is the lack of pixel shader support a problem with my video card or is it a different problem? Is the Deus Ex 2 demo just poorly produced? (The game is published by Eidos so we all *know* quality isn't on the mind of the publisher.) I'm running on a 1 GHz Windows 2000 machine with 512 MB of RAM and DirectX 9.0b installed. I've also got the latest drivers for the MX 440 card installed. Not being that up to date on current PC graphics cards, I thought I'd throw the question out here. In short, when I run the demo I get a "pixel shader 1.1 support required" message and that's the end of the show. Is it game over for me and the Deus Ex 2 demo or is there a way around this problem that won't necessitate buying a new video card?

Thanks,

RH.

T3KT0N

11-24-2003, 08:03 AM

You have the 52 whql series drivers?
They work ok.
See if you have any detonator file leftovers,they seem to conflict with Dx9 in some games.
The detonator drivers issues feature in every troubleshooting section of the newer games.
I can't figure out why it crashes your specs seem ok.
re: your question:
Game-spy-File planet, is becoming a kind of monopoly,soon they'll charge even for freeware,ever since they anihilated Heat (1999) they created a kind of exclusivity(due to ads and commercial content)and they feature on the installation kit of every online game.

Richard Hobbes

11-24-2003, 08:10 AM

Just for comparison's sake...

I downloaded two demos (Deus Ex 2 and Max Payne 2) at the time I got the Deus Ex 2 demo. The Deus Ex 2 demo? It crashes (and I do mean crash as in freezes my computer) with a "pixel shader 1.1 support required" error. From what I've seen here, even if the Deus Ex 2 demo would run on my computer, it would run very slowly. Max Payne 2? Runs just fine - even with all the graphic details cranked to full. I smell a rat here that is definitely putting a damper in my desire to play Deus Ex 2.

RH.

Richard Hobbes

11-24-2003, 08:12 AM

Reply to T3KT0N,

--- You have the 52 whql series drivers? They work ok.
--- See if you have any detonator file leftovers, they seem
--- to conflict with Dx9 in some games. The detonator
--- drivers issues feature in every troubleshooting section
--- of the newer games.

Thanks. I've got the latest detonator drivers installed, not the WHQL drivers. I'll get the WHQL drivers from WIndows Update and see if this fixes my problem.

Thanks again,

RH.

E.T.

11-24-2003, 08:14 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">Just for comparison's sake...

I downloaded two demos (Deus Ex 2 and Max Payne 2) at the time I got the Deus Ex 2 demo. The Deus Ex 2 demo? It crashes (and I do mean crash as in freezes my computer) with a "pixel shader 1.1 support required" error. From what I've seen here, even if the Deus Ex 2 demo would run on my computer, it would run very slowly. Max Payne 2? Runs just fine - even with all the graphic details cranked to full. I smell a rat here that is definitely putting a damper in my desire to play Deus Ex 2.

RH.</div>

The demo does not support MX cards.
GPU's seem to be #1 reason cited for CTD.

Richard Hobbes

11-24-2003, 08:23 AM

E.T.,

--- The demo does not support MX cards.
--- GPU's seem to be #1 reason cited for CTD.

Thanks. I guess installing the WHQL drivers won't help in this case. It seems pretty silly to only support the absolutely latest video cards in a game. I mean, pixel and vertex shading features are only in the newer PC video cards of this generation. If Ion Storm doesn't drop the video card requirements, a whole lot of people won't be playing Deus Ex 2.

Thanks for the reply and for saving me more debugging time!

RH.

Hieremias

11-24-2003, 08:26 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\"><div class=\"smallfont\"></div>

The demo does not support MX cards.
GPU's seem to be #1 reason cited for CTD.</div>

From what I understand the <i>final game</i> will not support Geforce4 MX cards.

The minimum needed for this game is a Geforce3, and as has been said many times, a Geforce4 MX is <i>inferior to a Geforce3</i>.

I could be mistaken about the first point (the game may support Geforce4 MX), but I'm not mistaken about the latter. A Geforce4 MX is just a Geforce2. In fact a "high-end" Geforce2 will outperform a Geforce4 MX.

Richard Hobbes

11-24-2003, 08:38 AM

Hieremias,

--- The minimum needed for this game is a Geforce3,
--- and as has been said many times, a Geforce4 MX
--- is inferior to a Geforce3. I could be mistaken about
--- the first point (the game may support Geforce4 MX),
--- but I'm not mistaken about the latter. A Geforce4 MX
--- is just a Geforce2. In fact a "high-end" Geforce2 will
--- outperform a Geforce4 MX.

Thanks for clarifying this. Being primarily a console gamer, I've been duped into buying an inferior PC video card. Soon after I began playing with the GeForce 4 MX card, I started to wonder... "gee, how come so many games disable their reflective surfaces and other cooler effects when I've got a new, top-of-the-line video card?" My PC vendor (and nVidia) duped me into buying a card that is not what its name suggests. Thanks for confirming what I suspected. Darn. Now I've got to upgrade my video card again!

Here's an odd one. Icon Storm claims the video card requirements for the game are: "32 MB 100% DirectX 9.x compatible 3D graphics cards". Is there such a thing? My understanding is that any card that is 100% DirectX 9.x compatible is a newer card that would have at least 64 to 128 MB (if not 256 MB) of VRAM. Yes/No?

RH.

T3KT0N

11-24-2003, 10:04 AM

Here is another sit to d/load the demo:
http://www.filemirrors.com/search.src?file=dxiw_demo.zip&size=234828182

Renzatic Gear

11-24-2003, 10:57 AM

Thanks for clarifying this. Being primarily a console gamer, I've been duped into buying an inferior PC video card. Soon after I began playing with the GeForce 4 MX card, I started to wonder... "gee, how come so many games disable their reflective surfaces and other cooler effects when I've got a new, top-of-the-line video card?" My PC vendor (and nVidia) duped me into buying a card that is not what its name suggests. Thanks for confirming what I suspected. Darn. Now I've got to upgrade my video card again!

Here's an odd one. Icon Storm claims the video card requirements for the game are: "32 MB 100% DirectX 9.x compatible 3D graphics cards". Is there such a thing? My understanding is that any card that is 100% DirectX 9.x compatible is a newer card that would have at least 64 to 128 MB (if not 256 MB) of VRAM. Yes/No?
RH.

A little hint when it comes to buying computer hardware...stay away from the ultra cheap budget line cards, and most definately stay away from the MX cards. Even if you're strapped for cash just do a little research, you'll find a really weird disparity among the low end of the high end graphics market. Like a Geforce FX 5200 (the MX of the FX line) being slower than a Geforce 4 Ti 4200 that costs about the same price...odd little quirks like that.

Also, Deus Ex 2 is a Direct X 8.1 game and I do believe that there are a few 32 meg DX8 cards floating around out there. In your case, since you don't have the comp to run it (most people don't, specially if they wanna play it in high resolutions) I recommend you grab it for the Xbox.

E.T.

11-24-2003, 11:01 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">

Here's an odd one. Icon Storm claims the video card requirements for the game are: "32 MB 100% DirectX 9.x compatible 3D graphics cards". Is there such a thing? My understanding is that any card that is 100% DirectX 9.x compatible is a newer card that would have at least 64 to 128 MB (if not 256 MB) of VRAM. Yes/No?

RH.</div>

Yes, that is odd, & I dont believe a "32mb w/100%DirectX compatible 3D card" could be found for purchase, not to mention no one would be interested in it.

I think rather Ion Storm is giving usual minimal/basic requirements for system hardware.[ Im starting to be suspect of box "requirements" as a way to lure in gamers w/marginal system hardware.] 128mb pixel & vertex shading cards are soon to be standard fare for upcomming games. Its not just DE2 that will be requiring it.

The good news on GPU's has been pointed out previously in this thread;
128 ti cards have dropped in price. :)

yagrö

12-02-2003, 12:13 PM

I think the base of this problem, and most problems we'll have with this game have one root source. The Xbox.

They've simplified it for the console market (Not just controls but getting rid of the details like newspapers and data pads to find and read)...I think a lot of the original had to do with those complications...it made the game more emersive. You got into it more because of the the little complications and details, or as I'd like to call them here, 'realisms'.

To me, the white collar guys saw the popularity of the first game and did what the recording industry did to music. They changed it to be initially appealing to the largest market, because once you've bought it then it's too late.

And_so_it_goes

12-02-2003, 04:38 PM

ok, i tried the demo and it really has the 'floaty' feeling someone was talking about earlier. changing resolution does not help. i don't think it's a lack of framerates, exactly, but there is a noticable difference in the time my mouse moves and the time my perspective on the screen changes. graphics are nothing special, even drab and simplistic. i like the physics of throwing objects but as of now that is the only nice thing i have to say about dx2.

Caesurus

12-05-2003, 09:53 AM

I started the game and quit right away after moving around the room, i needed to try find an answer to this crappy mouse problem.

Anyway... In the "default.ini" file i found a parameter called: MouseLagThreshold

mmmm, sounds like the right one to change doesn't it?

Seems to solve the problem on my machine when I set it to:
MouseLagThreshold=0

E.T.

12-05-2003, 10:15 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">I started the game and quit right away after moving around the room, i needed to try find an answer to this crappy mouse problem.

Anyway... In the "default.ini" file i found a parameter called: MouseLagThreshold

mmmm, sounds like the right one to change doesn't it?

Seems to solve the problem on my machine when I set it to:
MouseLagThreshold=0</div>

Go to reply #24 [by mattewcraig] in this thread for tweaking of demo, including mouse speed.
The full retail version has simple mouse speed adjustment in main menu :)

Stengah

12-06-2003, 02:08 AM

in 640x480, all options off, it ran at 5fps on my P4 2.6C Ghz, 512 Ram, intel i875p chipset, fx5200 Card.

I tried to modify the options in default.ini, and now, i can go up to 5fps in 1024x798 .... quite unplayable.

did i miss something, or is this game really this slow ?

E.T.

12-06-2003, 08:16 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">in 640x480, all options off, it ran at 5fps on my P4 2.6C Ghz, 512 Ram, intel i875p chipset, fx5200 Card.

I tried to modify the options in default.ini, and now, i can go up to 5fps in 1024x798 .... quite unplayable.

did i miss something, or is this game really this slow ?</div>

Maybe, & perhaps.
If you are playing the demo, [which I suspect since you are responding to this thread] here is a resource for Reports/Problems/Solutions on DE2 Demo:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27815

RSVP if you are playing full version with performance issues.
Your system is similar to mine & I've been able to tweak enough to get game play acceptable.
There is a patch comming for full version, & rumor has it that Demo may also be patched.

E.T.

12-06-2003, 08:25 AM

Stengah

12-06-2003, 09:30 AM

the 5 fps were without bloom and multisampling, all options off in default.ini. iv tried a lot of combinations, it was always slow.

also, i own the real game.

E.T.

12-06-2003, 09:53 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">the 5 fps were without bloom and multisampling, all options off in default.ini. iv tried a lot of combinations, it was always slow.

also, i own the real game.</div>

Ok, a few basics...
[1] What version drivers are you currently running?
52.16 needed, if you dont already have them, here they are:http://www.nvidia.com/object/winxp_2k_52.16

[2] What version DX? 9.0b is being used successfully. Here it is:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/directx/default.aspx

Here is Eidos Tech support forum for full version help:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=127

From what I can tell @ this point, the greater majority that are playing full version w/systems like ours, fail to get frame rates above 25......

You indicate in original post that you have res set to 1024x798.
Have you tried to run it in800x600?

Also, how far along are you, past third mission yet? [game smooths out there, dont know why]

I believe @ this point you have two opitons:
[1] play game w/minimized settings for now, OR
[2] Like many others playing full version indicate: set game aside till it is patched.

Like others who consider the original DE Conspiracy to be one of the best video games ever made, this sequel has been rushed to market.

btw, did you play the original? What do you think of the interface changes? [positve/negative].

Stengah

12-06-2003, 10:10 AM

i have the 52.16 forceware drivers and DX9b installed ....

for the resolutions, in fact i tried the three, so yes, i also tried in 800x600

even will all settings to the lowest, it's only playable in 640x480 .... it's too hard for me to play this way. when i say playable it's about 20 25 fps.

i think i'll have to wait for the patch.

yes, i loved deus ex, but sorry what is dx conspiracy ? maybe there was an addon i miss ?

if it's the same game, then yes, i liked it, but i feel the interface now is crap compared to the original, same for physics, and all. i don't see much improvements .... maybe graphics, but that makes the game unplayable. but as for now i can't really judge, because i havn't played much.

also, it seems the game is a lot shorter.

E.T.

12-06-2003, 10:22 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">i have the 52.16 forceware drivers and DX9b installed ....

for the resolutions, in fact i tried the three, so yes, i also tried in 800x600

even will all settings to the lowest, it's only playable in 640x480 .... it's too hard for me to play this way. when i say playable it's about 20 25 fps.

i think i'll have to wait for the patch.

yes, i loved deus ex, but sorry what is dx conspiracy ? maybe there was an addon i miss ?

if it's the same game, then yes, i liked it, but i feel the interface now is crap compared to the original, same for physics, and all. i don't see much improvements .... maybe graphics, but that makes the game unplayable. but as for now i can't really judge, because i havn't played much.

also, it seems the game is a lot shorter.</div>

Interface is second biggest complaint w/DE2, the elimination of skill developement is #1. What use to be a hybrid FPS/RPG seems now to be a glorified FPS :(

Conspiracy was subtitle for DE1.

I disagree on the physics to a point, Im enjoying the NPC & environment interaction/reaction [though tossed bodies do contort in unreal manor].
Interface is way tooooo easy to use. Hate to say it, but console port influence is evident here.

Voice sync is often off, sometimes good, mostly bad.

The graphics are greatly improved IF you have a high end GPU cranked [sadly, game is unplayable w8x multisampling/bloom on/1600x1200 res].

Hang in there, patch is comming.

Stengah

12-06-2003, 10:29 AM

they should'nt have released it yet, it's really unperfect to me. the story and gameplay seems good, however technically it's not good enough.

and yes, they should have made a XBOX adaptation of a PC game, and not the contrary. though i love the xbox.

quite dissapointed in fact.

and you see the skills are gone ??? it's really really a bad piece of news, i enjoyed it so much.

moya

12-08-2003, 02:55 AM

I don't understand all this anguish over loss of the skill system. As pointed out elsewhere, some of the skills in the original DE were hardly well thought out (e.g. swimming, and the fact that you only really needed one point in heavy weapons). Secondly, just because you don't have separate stats which are labelled as 'skills' doesn't mean you necessarily lose any of the depth which an RPG has. I hear DE2 incorporates skills into the biomod upgrade system. Not that I've played it, but what's wrong with that? Is it really so dumbed down compared to the original? I think the best comment I've seen regarding the loss of skills in DE2 came in a Warren Spector interview on Eurogamer.net. In it the interviewer (Kieron Gillen) said the following:

"Some people before they sit down and play it don't really understand. They go "They've lost the skills... so it's not as deep". Which is obviously insane: complexity is not the same as depth."

So I guess my question to those bemoaning the lack of skills in DE2 is this: are you complaining about a lack of complexity or a lack of depth? Did the skills in the original really add to the ability to customise your character or is it just the fact that some extra numbers with 'skills' written above them convinces you you're playing an RPG? For me what was memorable about the original were the biomods. What made my character my own were the different biomods I chose. The real choices about character customisation were, I feel, in those decisions, not in which skills to upgrade.

But, er, I'll have to play it before I decide if it's crap or not so just ignore all that if you wish.

Suicides-by-Steve

12-08-2003, 05:46 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">
So I guess my question to those bemoaning the lack of skills in DE2 is this: are you complaining about a lack of complexity or a lack of depth? Did the skills in the original really add to the ability to customise your character or is it just the fact that some extra numbers with 'skills' written above them convinces you you're playing an RPG? .</div>

Complexity... I want my games as complex as they come... Hence the term that they "dummied" it down. Duh! LOL ;) I like to assign skills and finish the game as a unique character... not simply as some FPS avatar with attitude... there's plenty other games out there that can accomplish this. Nothing beat being able to drop a guard at a 1 kilometre range... Nothing. Now I suppose in this game- everyone can do that... Oh well, they won't be getting any cash from me... well, they will, after the game drops to 5 bucks.

moya

12-08-2003, 08:25 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">Nothing beat being able to drop a guard at a 1 kilometre range... Nothing. Now I suppose in this game- everyone can do that... </div>

Not necessarily - biomods could give you similar unique abilities. Not that I'd know though. Like you, I haven't played it, but I'm not going to bash it for getting rid of something I'm not sure contributed that much to the gameplay experience in the first place.

Having said that, if extra complexity in itself is enough to give you your gaming jollies then I'd guess DE2 won't be the game for you... Maybe Silent Storm (http://www.nival.com/eng/s2_info.html) would be more to your liking. ;)

E.T.

12-08-2003, 08:57 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">I don't understand all this anguish over loss of the skill system. As pointed out elsewhere, some of the skills in the original DE were hardly well thought out (e.g. swimming, and the fact that you only really needed one point in heavy weapons). Secondly, just because you don't have separate stats which are labelled as 'skills' doesn't mean you necessarily lose any of the depth which an RPG has. I hear DE2 incorporates skills into the biomod upgrade system. Not that I've played it, but what's wrong with that? Is it really so dumbed down compared to the original? I think the best comment I've seen regarding the loss of skills in DE2 came in a Warren Spector interview on Eurogamer.net. In it the interviewer (Kieron Gillen) said the following:

"Some people before they sit down and play it don't really understand. They go "They've lost the skills... so it's not as deep". Which is obviously insane: complexity is not the same as depth."

So I guess my question to those bemoaning the lack of skills in DE2 is this: are you complaining about a lack of complexity or a lack of depth? Did the skills in the original really add to the ability to customise your character or is it just the fact that some extra numbers with 'skills' written above them convinces you you're playing an RPG? For me what was memorable about the original were the biomods. What made my character my own were the different biomods I chose. The real choices about character customisation were, I feel, in those decisions, not in which skills to upgrade.

But, er, I'll have to play it before I decide if it's crap or not so just ignore all that if you wish.</div>

Many good points moya, Im finding near mission three that game is enjoyable in a different vein than Conspiracy was.
Skills, skills. Yes, I miss them as they provided direction for char developement, but as you indicated, there are biomod upgrades to be made. There are 5 body slots for biomods, leg, cranial, eye, arm & skeletal. When you come across other cannisters [including Black Market type], you can overwrite w/new biomod or upgrade cannisters.
Biomods have three levels of enhancement. As in Conspiracy, biomods are powered by energy cells. To an extent, these biomods [imo] do implement char developement.

I still hold that my biggest complaint in Invisible War is the interface.
The implemmentation of cursed "Unfied ammo". I'll cut to chase & say this & other "streamlining" of interface just makes game play to simplified, too easy to play. [they did inhance game complexity by not providing in game saves..off to main menu you go, lol] So that answers another question...Is it about complexity.." yes, oh yes. The more to do, the better.

@ this early point, I've discovered that I.W. is a different Deus Ex. The story is better implemented [through NPC conversations, faster pace]
The physics are a blast[much more to play w/too!], voice overs much improved [though lip sync is often off], and then theres the graphics......where to begin. In short, the graphics have potential for being best yet. The problem comes from achieving them via loss of frame rates. After much tweaking [drivers, DX upgrade, microsampling, bloom, res etc.] I have gotten the game to run smooth. For experimentation of viewing best display, I crank vid options to1280x1024, multisampling to 10, bloom on. The game has beautiful lighting effects, dynamic shadows, unlike Conspiracy [remember in DE1 shadows were black circles that were fixed on chars].The game instantly recalled my first time impressions of lighting in Splinter Cell.
Down side to maxed graphics is game is unplayable. On my system [P4 2.66, 512 RD ram, G4 128mb ti] the game slowed down to dispaly what seemed like one frame per second :(

I could go on about the negatives, but they are not enough to keep me from enjoying I.W. Besides, Grey Mouser [Eidos] promises a patch is forth comming [including quick save/load in game].
Ignore what you hear about demo. Like Conspiracy, Invisible War demo has not gotten good reviews.
The game can be had for discount of $10 US @ gogamer.com
I paid full retail [$50 US] to be one of the first due to my love for DE1.
No regrets, Id do it all over again [& I had severe anxiety getting it to run @ first, lol].

btw, theres a neat trailer on disc of Thief 3, There is also an implication to force feedback mouse in option menu..."Vibration."...lol [must be left over for console app].

T3KT0N

12-08-2003, 05:12 PM

Dis game is no good,
It absolutely needs text,
lots of it,
text to choose from,text to ponder,text to read during bathroom visits.
It's gotta stop and think,before shooting!
Then it needs to think some more when it's getting shot at.
it's gotta show little numbers,everytime someone sneezes!
It has to require 5 keybd commands to open a door.
It's gotta have nailpolish color variety in the inventory.
Unless all these are fulfilled the game lacks depth...

E.T.

12-08-2003, 05:54 PM

Lol, T3KTON! You had me there for a moment....I almost relocated your post to System Wars board.

You are offically suspected of posting on SW board under secret identity..[your message has a familiar style to it..] Lol ;)

moya

12-09-2003, 01:36 AM

Well there's some good news anyway. Can't be all bad. It's my impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that a lot of people were so shocked by the ways in which DE2 was different to the first game that they couldn't see past them at first. Now we're hearing a little more about the positives in the game which is good. But seriously, a week or so ago I didn't know the first thing about the actual game; all I could see were posts saying "the skills are gone!", "there's no ammo!", "damn this console port suxxors!" etc. It's nice to know that there's a game in there. :)

Suicides-by-Steve

12-09-2003, 05:38 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">Dis game is no good,
It absolutely needs text,
lots of it,
text to choose from,text to ponder,text to read during bathroom visits.
It's gotta stop and think,before shooting!
Then it needs to think some more when it's getting shot at.
it's gotta show little numbers,everytime someone sneezes!
It has to require 5 keybd commands to open a door.
It's gotta have nailpolish color variety in the inventory.
Unless all these are fulfilled the game lacks depth...</div>

Heh, funny that when you basically just condemned KotOR for the exact same thing (for it being to simplistic)! LOL Get a grip on what abgle you're gonna go with and stick to it! What, you just give out lip service, or do you actually have your own opinion T3kton? :rolleyes:

Hieremias

12-09-2003, 06:18 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">I don't understand all this anguish over loss of the skill system. As pointed out elsewhere, some of the skills in the original DE were hardly well thought out (e.g. swimming, and the fact that you only really needed one point in heavy weapons). Secondly, just because you don't have separate stats which are labelled as 'skills' doesn't mean you necessarily lose any of the depth which an RPG has. I hear DE2 incorporates skills into the biomod upgrade system. Not that I've played it, but what's wrong with that? Is it really so dumbed down compared to the original? I think the best comment I've seen regarding the loss of skills in DE2 came in a Warren Spector interview on Eurogamer.net. In it the interviewer (Kieron Gillen) said the following:

"Some people before they sit down and play it don't really understand. They go "They've lost the skills... so it's not as deep". Which is obviously insane: complexity is not the same as depth."

So I guess my question to those bemoaning the lack of skills in DE2 is this: are you complaining about a lack of complexity or a lack of depth? Did the skills in the original really add to the ability to customise your character or is it just the fact that some extra numbers with 'skills' written above them convinces you you're playing an RPG? For me what was memorable about the original were the biomods. What made my character my own were the different biomods I chose. The real choices about character customisation were, I feel, in those decisions, not in which skills to upgrade.

But, er, I'll have to play it before I decide if it's crap or not so just ignore all that if you wish.</div>

Yes it IS dumbed down compared to the original, and removing the skill system DOES remove depth from the game. This isn't hard to see.

Take lockpicks and electronics. The original's lockpicks and multitools have been rolled into one and no longer rely on any skill or biomod. Which reduces lockpicking / electronics to a mere inventory system (Do I have an extra multitool to spare?). It relies ENTIRELY on whether or not the level designers dropped enough multitools for you (and you'll find them under stairways, behind boxes, ie anywhere that it isn't logical for them to be). No longer do you weigh the cost of spending skill points on upgrading your lockpicking. In the original you'd have to decide, "Do I have enough lockpicks, or can I avoid using them, to make up for my abysmal skill, or should I upgrade my skills?" No more. This IS a lack of depth, regardless of what Warren Spectre and his PR campaign says.

You can say the same of all weapons--not only is the ammo combined, but the skills are gone so there's very, very little reason to think about carrying a balance of weaponry. Can you think of any reason to carry a pistol, shotgun, and SMG? I can't. I ditched my pistol ages ago. In the original game each weapon had its uses depending on your ammo availability and your skill level. Not anymore.

And before you say it's for the purposes of simplicity ("my mind can't handle different ammo types!"), wait till you see how many different grenade types there are. I figure at least half a dozen, including some (ie flashbangs) not in the original. And no, those ones don't share a common ammo source. You have to carry each in a separate inventory slot, despite the incredibly small inventory. I can carry 6 EMP grenades in one slot, or one grenade of each type and it takes up 6 slots? Where is the logic in that? I can carry different food types in the same slots, but not grenades?

Edit: Off the top of my head I can think of concussion, EMP, spider, scrambler, and flashbang grenades, so there's at least 5. I think I may be missing one or two.

The biomods are still good but they're reduced--there are now fewer biomod slots, and the balancing is off. Some of the slots--ie the one dealing with strength--are pretty useless. But another, the one that shares healing with X-ray vision, makes you choose between two that I'd really like to have (the original let you have both). So I'm clearly not able to have the character I want, I'm constrained by the choices made by the developers. (Maybe they thought it would be too unbalanced? Well the X-ray vision isn't THAT helpful, I just think it's very cool.)

The game isn't a total write-off, it still has great quests and good writing. But it does not take long to see that it IS grossly dumbed-down from the original to meet the hardware and cultural requirements of the Xbox (console gamers are a different breed, always have been). You'll find yourself in environments too small to be believable with a biomod/inventory/combat system too simple to offer much of a brainteaser. "Complexity does not equal depth" is, I'm sure, an impressive-sounding philosophical musing, but here's reality: "Invisible War has less depth than its predecessor."

moya

12-09-2003, 07:09 AM

Re: skills. Well I suppose that answers my question. Thanks for the informative reply Hieremias. Now I'm very disappointed. I thought maybe they'd taken out the skills but kept the depth in the biomod system, but from what you've said it appears that that's not the case.

Having said that, I can kind of understand the unified ammo system when conceived of in terms of nanites replicating whatever ammo you need on demand. In short, it makes sense to me in terms of the game world. And as to your question about different uses of different weapons, well presumably a single shot with a pistol takes less "nano-energy" (or whatever the generic ammo is) than a shotgun blast or an SMG burst. So I can kind of see situations where using the pistol might be to your advantage - i.e. where you need to conserve ammo. Certainly a shotgun and an SMG have different uses (short range, wide blast vs. mid range, rapid fire) - what's a unified ammo pool got to do with the difference between those two guns?

So, loss of skills seems to be a loss of depth = bad. Unified ammo = meh, don't see the problem.