Putting this Nintendo "rehash" BS to rest

[Gadfly2317]

Ok, this is to address the several posters who’ve called Nintendo’s sequels—especially Mario Kart DD—things like “rehash of the N64 game” or “the same old game” or “endlessly pimping out its stale old franchises”—even though in some cases its only the 2nd (SSMB) or third installment in a series. These statements are not just matters of opinion, they are objectively false.

If someone has grown sick of the Nintendo universe, tired of Mario and Peach, and tired of the bright primary colors that are a signature of the Mario games, that is totally understandable. That is a matter of personal taste, and totally subjective. It would be no different than someone who’d tired of stiff realism, dark colors, and cut-scene laden games like Metal Gear, or Tenchu or any number games on PS2 that many people love and enjoy and that get good reviews. Nintendo has a certain thing it does—it has created its own world populated with a cast of characters that has slowly grown over the last 20 years. If you don’t like that world, its style, or its characters anymore, that’s cool. But it hardly is a rational basis for automatically dismissing the quality, innovation, or fun of new games set in that world.

Let’s take the most recent game to get the clichéd and ridiculous “rehash” label from the anti-nintendo crowd. MK-DD, I believe, is only the third game in this series. But some of these same people are looking fwd to Gran Turismo 4, and have praised such racing sequels as Moto GP II and Project Gotham II, and Need for Speed: Underground. All good, solid sequels that improve upon the core gameplay of the predecessors, add some new modes, new cars, and new tracks---which are the main reason we get racing sequels. We liked the first one and want to basically expand it with new cars and tracks.

So why scorn Mario Kart—a racing sequel with enormous changes over its predecessor--as a rehash? I don't think you can point to a racing sequel that is more expanded than its predecessor. When I say it has big changes, I’m not talking superficial little upgrades like EA golf games--slight graphic tweaks and expanded Barbie modes (custom characters) for pansies who want to get that precious over-priced polo shirt to make their plaid pants wearing cornball character look even fruitier. I mean substantive changes and improvements.

If you just played the single player demo at a kiosk for a few minutes, I wouldn’t blame you for not noticing the changes this game has undergone.

First, the graphics are so much better than Mario 64. The difference is far greater than the graphical difference between Gran Turismo and GT3. Second, the new tracks are very creative. A couple real stand-outs are the Cruise Ship, the desert with tornados and a sandpit creature that will devour you, and the stage in the Star Cup where you get launched out of a cannon and then race down an insanely steep, curvy cliff-laden trail.

The N64 version had a skimpy cast of characters and NO choice of karts. There are far more character’s to choose from, and your choices are actually strategic. Not only do the weights of your characters matter, but by having to put two riders in the same kart, you have a huge number of permutations of not only character specific weapons, but a huge range of weight combinations between light, heavy and medium characaters—and it really affects the race. Heavy Bowser and light Peach? Two really light characters like Diddy Kong and the little Koopa? How about two big evil freaks together in Wario and Waluigi? And then add in further permutations of racing style by being able to select a huge number of freaky vehicles—many of which are unlockable. You race in everything from a hot-rod baby carriage to some bizarre purple hearse-looking thing that goes along well with Waluigi.

And weapons. . . you’ve got the old ones, but the new character specific weapons are very cool, especially the chain-chomp weapon.

And the co-op mode adds seriously different elements to this game that we’ve never seen in a Mario Kart game before. Two players in one cart is CRAZY fun. And it is HARD to get good teamwork going on. You both contribute to getting around corners, you both have to deal with weapons management (the driver can hold a weapon too) and when you are out of weapons the guy in the back can reach out and punch nearby carts, steal items, as well as make the whole kart lurch sideways to bash into people.

New graphics, new weapons, new characters, deeper strategy, new tracks, new battle modes, co-op mode, system link, and a huge array of racing styles that can be achieved by character and Kart combinations. You might rightly complain that Nintendo didn’t choose to unveil an online strategy with this game, or that there should have been more (and bigger) battle arenas, but if you dismiss this game as “the same old game” or a “rehash” you are simply ignorant.

[Gadfly2317]

How about Super Smash Brother's Melee? That one's been called a rehash by one especially obnoxious and ill informed GC hater here. This game is massively improved over the N64 SSB, even more so than Mario Kart DD is over MK64. In fact, its onlye second game in the series, hardly a worn out franchise. You could call SSB on N64 a rough draft, they are so different. SSBM not only added a huge number of unlockable's, characters, items, collectibles, and battle arenas, but added entirely NEW games. Just the challenge mode alone where you do things like see how many yards you can knock a giant sack with a baseball bat, how long you can protect a yoshi egg from bowser, or how long you can stay alive against a hundred metal Marios. . . this is so large as to be a game unto itself. And then the Adventure mode, an old school side scrolling mode with many, many stages to fight your way through. Again, this is another entire game to itself added to the original fight game that was SSB on N64. Rather than being a rehash, this is one of the best, most value laden sequels ever created.

Metroid Prime a rehash? Sure, its a sequel, and one that many people thought would fail because it so radically changed over its predecessors by taking the Metroid series into not only 3-D, but first person. The game was a smash success and has been highly praised everywhere for its artistry, atmosphere, level design, and originality. It even won the AIAS-Europe game of the year award.

Mario Sunshine and Zelda Windwaker are two fine sequels. Neither deviated from the basic game-play formula of its N64 predecessors. But both create a very strongly different qualitative experience. Mario Sunshine is the probably your best case at trying to call a Nintendo game a "rehash," but the experience of playing the game was still unique, despite the shine collecting and the butt stomping. The whole atmosphere of vacation made it feel very different, and the challenges and boss battles where very fresh. Fighting mecha-bowser while riding on a rollercoaster and trying to shoot down missiles with a waterpack? I didn't experience anything REMOTELY like that in Mario 64. Jumping from high-wire to bouncy high-wire? That was a real WOW experience and a masterpiece of physics programming. I could go on more, but if you haven't played it you should, and if you have, you probably know what I'm talking about. More or less the same game, but loaded with many cool new things, and an atmosphere that gave it a whole new feel.

Zelda was also another game that retained the core experience of exploration, puzzle solving, and fight style, especially in the dungeons. Considering this is one of the best loved, most fun series in the history of gaming, there was plenty that damned well BETTER have been rehashed. You don't throw out winning formulas. But again, this one was so daringly different in its design, atmosphere and artistry that screenshots reveealed prior to the game's release actually caused an internet-petition to get Miyamoto to change the game to conform to people's expectations. Yet it turned out amazing, and was only the 4th game in history to get a pefect 10 from Famitsu. People play sequels because they liked the first game, and Zelda retained a lot of the first game. But there was so much new in it, so much to explore, such a huge world filled with new characters and mini-games that it is a must-play for anyone who loves this series.

And like it does every generation, Nintendo also works to bring us something completely new. So far, I'd say Animal Crossing, Pikmin and Cubivore are not only NEW nintendo games that dared to ignore mainstream cliched expectations, they basically all three create their own genre, because none fit into any category of game that has come before it. There are very few games this generation on any system you could say that about.

Anyone who says Nintendo does nothing but rehash and pimp out old ideas is clearly spouting ignorance. Case closed.

[no.1gamer]

I'm starting to think that the Nintendo haters around here are labeling some of these great games as "rehashes" just because Mario, Donkey Kong and the rest of the Nintendo characters make an appearance. Mario Kart: Double Dash!! is bigger and better than its predecessors. Most great games of this generation are simply new and improved versions of older games. GTA:VC was exactly like GTA3. And GTA3 is the 3rd installment in the series (although the other 2 sucked IMO). Halo is a game about shooting aliens with the following weapons: pistol, assault rifle, shotgun, sniper rifle, etc. Now I'm not saying these are bad games by any means as I enjoy them very much.

Many of Nintendo's franchises are such great games that only a fool would want any drastic changes to it. So instead of making changes, Nintendo makes improvements to it. Mario Kart: Double Dash has better graphics, better sound, more characters, more carts, more weapons and more multiplayer modes! What more could you want? Mario Kart is one of the best video game series ever, and continues to be. The only factor of Mario Kart on the GCN being rehashed is the amount of fun I'm having playing it. This game is as good if not better than the SNES Mario Kart (I missed out on the N64 MK).

EA and Sega repackage NFL games every year that have the same graphics, same sound, run on the same game engine and have the EXACT same controls. Yet you have the audacity to accuse Nintendo games that only come around once a generation and usually feature tremendous technological updates (that were unavailable during the games predecessors) of being rehashes. Go ahead and try to compare the 3D courses and characters of MK:DD to the 3D courses on the SNES MK! And how do you think the cell shading in Z:WW compares to the cell shading in the N64 Zelda games? How did you like the first person perspective of Metroid Prime compared to the first person perspective of Super Metroid?

[geoff2]

<div class=\"smallfont\">I'm starting to think that the Nintendo haters around here are labeling some of these great games as "rehashes" just because Mario, Donkey Kong and the rest of the Nintendo characters make an appearance. Mario Kart: Double Dash!! is bigger and better than its predecessors. Most great games of this generation are simply new and improved versions of older games. GTA:VC was exactly like GTA3. And GTA3 is the 3rd installment in the series (although the other 2 sucked IMO). Halo is a game about shooting aliens with the following weapons: pistol, assault rifle, shotgun, sniper rifle, etc. Now I'm not saying these are bad games by any means as I enjoy them very much.

Many of Nintendo's franchises are such great games that only a fool would want any drastic changes to it. So instead of making changes, Nintendo makes improvements to it. Mario Kart: Double Dash has better graphics, better sound, more characters, more carts, more weapons and more multiplayer modes! What more could you want? Mario Kart is one of the best video game series ever, and continues to be. The only factor of Mario Kart on the GCN being rehashed is the amount of fun I'm having playing it. This game is as good if not better than the SNES Mario Kart (I missed out on the N64 MK).

EA and Sega repackage NFL games every year that have the same graphics, same sound, run on the same game engine and have the EXACT same controls. Yet you have the audacity to accuse Nintendo games that only come around once a generation and usually feature tremendous technological updates (that were unavailable during the games predecessors) of being rehashes. Go ahead and try to compare the 3D courses and characters of MK:DD to the 3D courses on the SNES MK! And how do you think the cell shading in Z:WW compares to the cell shading in the N64 Zelda games? How did you like the first person perspective of Metroid Prime compared to the first person perspective of Super Metroid?</div>


This thread so far has been some pathetic gamecube lovefest, so let me burst your bubble mario huggers.

The majority of big nintendo franchises have been rehashes this year like it or not. Just because a game crosses a generation of systems does not mean it's broke new ground. The gameplay is what count's not the "Cell Shading" effects. Recently a game was released proving this point, XIII , showing that a new graphical effect does not make a new gameplay experience. Zelda is the same search, slash, puzzle adventure it's been since link to the past without much change.

Mario kart is mainly the same basic idea it has been since the super nintendo. Race around shooting people with crap from other nintendo games (shells, bananas etc...) and win the race. So what if you can have two characters per car now, it hasn't changed the basic premise enough to make the game fresh. Tried and tested gameplay is fine but any series doing the same thing by the third sequal it did in the first is something that won't last. Nintendo is lucky they have a foolish cult following and a new generation of kids every system or else their stale characters and gameplay would be dead long ago.

True, we did see a change with metriod prime but i think that's what ticks people off. We know they can do better and we see they're still original with games like pikmin and animal crossing, not to mention metriod. Instead they leave the cookie cutter formula for trash like mario and think we'll keep sucking it up like some desperate leaches. We finally get a little bone thrown to us in the form of metriod and that's supposed to justify our purchases of the same game every generation?

[Gadfly2317]

<div class=\"smallfont\"><div class=\"smallfont\"></div>


This thread so far has been some pathetic gamecube lovefest, so let me burst your bubble mario huggers.

The majority of big nintendo franchises have been rehashes this year like it or not. Just because a game crosses a generation of systems does not mean it's broke new ground. The gameplay is what count's not the "Cell Shading" effects. Recently a game was released proving this point, XIII , showing that a new graphical effect does not make a new gameplay experience. Zelda is the same search, slash, puzzle adventure it's been since link to the past without much change.

Mario kart is mainly the same basic idea it has been since the super nintendo. Race around shooting people with crap from other nintendo games (shells, bananas etc...) and win the race. So what if you can have two characters per car now, it hasn't changed the basic premise enough to make the game fresh. Tried and tested gameplay is fine but any series doing the same thing by the third sequal it did in the first is something that won't last. Nintendo is lucky they have a foolish cult following and a new generation of kids every system or else their stale characters and gameplay would be dead long ago.

True, we did see a change with metriod prime but i think that's what ticks people off. We know they can do better and we see they're still original with games like pikmin and animal crossing, not to mention metriod. Instead they leave the cookie cutter formula for trash like mario and think we'll keep sucking it up like some desperate leaches. We finally get a little bone thrown to us in the form of metriod and that's supposed to justify our purchases of the same game every generation?</div>

Please address something regarding this specific thing you said, since you didn't address any point I made:

"Mario kart is mainly the same basic idea it has been since the super nintendo. Race around shooting people with crap from other nintendo games (shells, bananas etc...) and win the race. So what if you can have two characters per car now, it hasn't changed the basic premise enough to make the game fresh. Tried and tested gameplay is fine but any series doing the same thing by the third sequal it did in the first is something that won't last."

Ok, you state the bloody obvious. You still race and try to win the race, same basic thing. DUH!!! It is a racing game---that's what you do in every racing game ever made. Yet wouldn't you acknowledge this game adds the following: a large selection of Karts (you had O before), more characters, new weapons, better graphics, new tracks, co-op mode (which is HUGE, and you'd know that if you'd played it), system link, 2 new battle modes, and 2 players per kart even in single player mode, which also affects your strategy and gameplay in a number of ways. This is all absolutely irrefutable that these are additions that weren't in the last installment in this fun series.

So answer me this: MANY people are looking forward to Gran Turismo 4. What is it going to add besides buggy modem based online play for a system too cruddy to include 4 controller ports? Won't it still be the same basic game, drive around a track, try to win, buy new parts for car? I've never seen ANY real change to the GT series except different cars and better graphics. Can you name ANY other racing sequel that has made as many signifacnt changes as I just listed for Mario Kart DD? I suppose the game may exist, but I haven't seen it.

And not just you. I challenge anyone to answer this.

[MoNkEy MaN X]

"The majority of big nintendo franchises have been rehashes this year like it or not. Just because a game crosses a generation of systems does not mean it's broke new ground. The gameplay is what count's not the "Cell Shading" effects. Recently a game was released proving this point, XIII , showing that a new graphical effect does not make a new gameplay experience. Zelda is the same search, slash, puzzle adventure it's been since link to the past without much change." -Geoff

What about Sony and Microsoft. If Nintendo is rehashing titles, that is all Microsoft and Sony have going for them too.

Look at this Microsoft XBOX rehashes:
Crimson Skies
Midtown Madness
Tennis Game, lol like this hasn't been done before
Ninja Gaiden
DOA Games
Any Tom Clancy FPS game
RTCW
and the list goes on

PS2:
Just about everything

Seriously, if you go by your aspect Geoff, the new generation of gaming is nothing but rehashes on all systems.

[mass]

Mass stifles a ... :o

And you have the audacity to accuse me of being mass-ively boring after this long winded tirade defending nintendo re-hashes..er ... sequels.

Naughty Dog created Crash Bandicoot and moved on to Jak and Daxter. Insomniac created Spyro and moved on to Ratchet and Clank. Nintendo created super mario and moved on to .... more super mario everything.

Sega is in the same boat, with their aging sonic franchise, attempting to resurrect the glory days with Sonic Heroes. To sega's credit, they did at least give it the old college try with Billy Hatcher, but the eggman hasn't caught on. Personally, I think nintendo is terrified of putting forward a new platform franchise. They're afraid without the recognition factor and mass market appeal of Mario, a new platform franchise would flop. And so, sony cleans up and wins by default.

Mario is old, he's stale, the mushrooms taste bitter, Peach is overripe and rotting, and Bowser and his koopa troopers are hackneyed relics of a former glory. Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. Nintendo's strategy is hold 'em and go down with the ship. Glug, glug.

[The Buzz]

<div class=\"smallfont\">How about Super Smash Brother's Melee? That one's been called a rehash by one especially obnoxious and ill informed GC hater here. This game is massively improved over the N64 SSB, even more so than Mario Kart DD is over MK64. In fact, its onlye second game in the series, hardly a worn out franchise. You could call SSB on N64 a rough draft, they are so different. SSBM not only added a huge number of unlockable's, characters, items, collectibles, and battle arenas, but added entirely NEW games. Just the challenge mode alone where you do things like see how many yards you can knock a giant sack with a baseball bat, how long you can protect a yoshi egg from bowser, or how long you can stay alive against a hundred metal Marios. . . this is so large as to be a game unto itself. And then the Adventure mode, an old school side scrolling mode with many, many stages to fight your way through. Again, this is another entire game to itself added to the original fight game that was SSB on N64. Rather than being a rehash, this is one of the best, most value laden sequels ever created.

Metroid Prime a rehash? Sure, its a sequel, and one that many people thought would fail because it so radically changed over its predecessors by taking the Metroid series into not only 3-D, but first person. The game was a smash success and has been highly praised everywhere for its artistry, atmosphere, level design, and originality. It even won the AIAS-Europe game of the year award.

Mario Sunshine and Zelda Windwaker are two fine sequels. Neither deviated from the basic game-play formula of its N64 predecessors. But both create a very strongly different qualitative experience. Mario Sunshine is the probably your best case at trying to call a Nintendo game a "rehash," but the experience of playing the game was still unique, despite the shine collecting and the butt stomping. The whole atmosphere of vacation made it feel very different, and the challenges and boss battles where very fresh. Fighting mecha-bowser while riding on a rollercoaster and trying to shoot down missiles with a waterpack? I didn't experience anything REMOTELY like that in Mario 64. Jumping from high-wire to bouncy high-wire? That was a real WOW experience and a masterpiece of physics programming. I could go on more, but if you haven't played it you should, and if you have, you probably know what I'm talking about. More or less the same game, but loaded with many cool new things, and an atmosphere that gave it a whole new feel.

Zelda was also another game that retained the core experience of exploration, puzzle solving, and fight style, especially in the dungeons. Considering this is one of the best loved, most fun series in the history of gaming, there was plenty that damned well BETTER have been rehashed. You don't throw out winning formulas. But again, this one was so daringly different in its design, atmosphere and artistry that screenshots reveealed prior to the game's release actually caused an internet-petition to get Miyamoto to change the game to conform to people's expectations. Yet it turned out amazing, and was only the 4th game in history to get a pefect 10 from Famitsu. People play sequels because they liked the first game, and Zelda retained a lot of the first game. But there was so much new in it, so much to explore, such a huge world filled with new characters and mini-games that it is a must-play for anyone who loves this series.

And like it does every generation, Nintendo also works to bring us something completely new. So far, I'd say Animal Crossing, Pikmin and Cubivore are not only NEW nintendo games that dared to ignore mainstream cliched expectations, they basically all three create their own genre, because none fit into any category of game that has come before it. There are very few games this generation on any system you could say that about.

Anyone who says Nintendo does nothing but rehash and pimp out old ideas is clearly spouting ignorance. Case closed.</div>

Done? Put your pom poms, bull horn, and Nintendo Banner, back in the toy box. Nintendo doesn't need you to sell their console...they'll just keep dropping the price so everyone will own one whether they want one or not!

Kidding!!!! All the consoles live off remakes and sequels and rip offs. There's nothing new anymore really. Doesn't mean the games aren't fun...just not overly original for the most part. At least Nintendo has some "marque" characters that are easy to reanimate...

[Gaming Geezer 78]

Mass stifles a ... :o

And you have the audacity to accuse me of being mass-ively boring after this long winded tirade defending nintendo re-hashes..er ... sequels.

Naughty Dog created Crash Bandicoot and moved on to Jak and Daxter. Insomniac created Spyro and moved on to Ratchet and Clank. Nintendo created super mario and moved on to .... more super mario everything.

Sega is in the same boat, with their aging sonic franchise, attempting to resurrect the glory days with Sonic Heroes. To sega's credit, they did at least give it the old college try with Billy Hatcher, but the eggman hasn't caught on. Personally, I think nintendo is terrified of putting forward a new platform franchise. They're afraid without the recognition factor and mass market appeal of Mario, a new platform franchise would flop. And so, sony cleans up and wins by default.

Mario is old, he's stale, the mushrooms taste bitter, Peach is overripe and rotting, and Bowser and his koopa troopers are hackneyed relics of a former glory. Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. Nintendo's strategy is hold 'em and go down with the ship. Glug, glug.



Why do you bother answering when you don't even know what you are talking about? Naughty Dog & Insomniac bailed-ship on Crash & Spyro for two reasons:

A) Sony bought them
B) Universal wanted to make these series multiplatform

You talk about Nintendo being terrified to do something new, but you fail to see that they are doing new things. Some examples?

Super Smash Bros.
Mario Party
Pikmin
Animal Crossing
Doshin The Giant
Eternal Darkness
Metroid Prime

All of these games are either new to this generation or started with the N64. What are they rehashing? Since you haven't played the new Mario Kart-how can you comment on it? It's significantly different enough and better than the previous games that I bought it-my first Mario Kart game ever. Same goes for the new F-Zero.

Nintendo obviously broke new ground that Sony & Sega wanted a part of with their Mario Party titles since Sony put out Crash Bash and Sega put out Sonic Shuffle.

And I must say-Nintendo has done right by me with the new Zelda compilation. All I did was register Mario Kart and Mario Party 5 on their site and I already have a confirmation that Zelda will be mine within two weeks time. Not too shabby.

Sony and Microsoft should try this.

["The Game"Evolution]

<div class=\"smallfont\">"The majority of big nintendo franchises have been rehashes this year like it or not. Just because a game crosses a generation of systems does not mean it's broke new ground. The gameplay is what count's not the "Cell Shading" effects. Recently a game was released proving this point, XIII , showing that a new graphical effect does not make a new gameplay experience. Zelda is the same search, slash, puzzle adventure it's been since link to the past without much change." -Geoff

What about Sony and Microsoft. If Nintendo is rehashing titles, that is all Microsoft and Sony have going for them too.

Look at this Microsoft XBOX rehashes:
Crimson Skies
Midtown Madness
Tennis Game, lol like this hasn't been done before
Ninja Gaiden
DOA Games
Any Tom Clancy FPS game
RTCW
and the list goes on

PS2:
Just about everything

Seriously, if you go by your aspect Geoff, the new generation of gaming is nothing but rehashes on all systems.</div>

Oh well there is no rehash like a good rehash.I just got finished reading the latest Game Informer.LOL! Mario Party 5 received the overall rating of a 2.LOL! A 2! Now thats two in a row that a GC game got the lowest of the low review.Last month was RS III with a score of a 6.5. Looks like the GC is truly shaping up to be the bargin basement console afterall.

If everything that Sony,MS,and Nintendo makes is a rehash then I say at least make the rehash worth our time and money.Other than that Monkey Man X welcome back to the dog pound.

[Gadfly2317]

<div class=\"smallfont\">Mass stifles a ... :o

And you have the audacity to accuse me of being mass-ively boring after this long winded tirade defending nintendo re-hashes..er ... sequels.

Naughty Dog created Crash Bandicoot and moved on to Jak and Daxter. Insomniac created Spyro and moved on to Ratchet and Clank. Nintendo created super mario and moved on to .... more super mario everything.

Sega is in the same boat, with their aging sonic franchise, attempting to resurrect the glory days with Sonic Heroes. To sega's credit, they did at least give it the old college try with Billy Hatcher, but the eggman hasn't caught on. Personally, I think nintendo is terrified of putting forward a new platform franchise. They're afraid without the recognition factor and mass market appeal of Mario, a new platform franchise would flop. And so, sony cleans up and wins by default.

Mario is old, he's stale, the mushrooms taste bitter, Peach is overripe and rotting, and Bowser and his koopa troopers are hackneyed relics of a former glory. Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. Nintendo's strategy is hold 'em and go down with the ship. Glug, glug.</div>

Seriously. That's what I'm saying, you and some others are sick of Mario and that whole cast of characters that pop up in party games like Golf, Kart, and Smash Brothers, along with mushrooms, and flower power, and all that.

I'm not tired of it. . . .I actually missed out on a lot of the SNES (I owned one for a couple years and then pawned it, probably to buy real mushrooms) and N64 generation, for one I hit college and was more interested in partying and women than in console gaming, and then when I got back into console gaming in the mid 90's it was NOT for cute Mario and the N64, it was for the the Ps1 and the kind of violent realism I'd never seen on a Nintendo system. I was an early/mid 20's guy and I wanted to kill stuff. So for me, I never burnt myself out by over-exposure to Nintendo games. I did finally pick up an N64 towards the end of its life span and am still actually catching up on some of its best games.

So, you HATE mario and are tired of him. And that's what I was saying about your and other's posts having little connection to the substantive quality or originality of the new Nintendo games. I may not be burnt out on the Mario universe from a long absence from it, but I've played most of the big ninendo games, all the Mario Karts, all the Mario games, almost all the Zelda's (never did play the first one, which I'm getting ready to remedy with the compliation disk.) So I do feel qualified to comment on whether something is a rehash, or whether it adds major twists and new content.

And for all your "rotting-mushroom" bile, you were unable to refute or even address the point I made about all the substantive additions to Mario Kart, or answer how any other racing sequel has added more new game-play enhancements than this one. And that really proves my point.

[Gadfly2317]

<div class=\"smallfont\"><div class=\"smallfont\"></div>

Done? Put your pom poms, bull horn, and Nintendo Banner, back in the toy box. Nintendo doesn't need you to sell their console...they'll just keep dropping the price so everyone will own one whether they want one or not!

Kidding!!!! All the consoles live off remakes and sequels and rip offs. There's nothing new anymore really. Doesn't mean the games aren't fun...just not overly original for the most part. At least Nintendo has some "marque" characters that are easy to reanimate...</div>

I can live with that assesment, that theres not much new anymore. I do think most games--even something that's not a sequel--is very similar to other games that have been done before. but like you say, they are fun, so originality isn't everything. There have certainly been really unique quirky games that end up sucking and are no fun, and fortunately most of those stay in Japan where they were created.

My point wasn't so much to praise Nintendo, as to demonstrate that as far as sequels go, they do an exceptional job of adding real reasons to play the sequel, real differences that enhance the experience--not just slight graphical touch ups. I didn't even set out to bash the Gran Turismo series, which is one of my favorite games of all time. The whole thing that set me off on this rant is that I really hate stupid statements, and I hate hypocrisy, and one of the most ridiculous things I've heard around here in a LONG time is this whole calling Mario Kart a rehash because "basically you still go around a track and try to come in first, so its the same exact game" crap. Every company wants a big hit that will produce money generating sequels. I have no problem with people who don't like Nintendo games, but it really pisses me off to see one sequel with nearly a dozen serious enhancements called a rehash, while other racing games with nothing more than some graphical and car updates get hailed as great.

And hey, let me also say while my pom poms and bull horn are still out, that the additions, tweaks, changes, and modes added to MK DD really WORK and make it a better game. Radical changes don't necessarily make a game better, as we saw with the ground missions in Rogue Squadron, or the crappy Rally racing mode added to Gran Turismo II.

[mass]

Why do you bother answering when you don't even know what you are talking about? Naughty Dog &amp; Insomniac bailed-ship on Crash &amp; Spyro for two reasons:

A) Sony bought them
B) Universal wanted to make these series multiplatform



Geez louise, I already know that!:rolleyes:

Sony lost the rights to the characters and Naughty Dog and Insomniac were forced by circumstance to create new platform franchises which worked out for the better. I remember at the time a lot of doomsayers were spouting that sony would be hurt big-time by losing the crash and spyro licences. But, nothing could've been further from the truth. I'm illustrating a point, hello!!!

Geezer, learn to read, I stated specifically "platform" franchise. Hello!!!

Sufficiently different is entirely a matter of opinion. And since when did opinion become fact. There are a couple of reviews on MK:DD floating out there that beg to differ with you on this aspect of sufficiently different. And I believe they've actually played the game more than you.

[mass]

&lt;div class=\&quot;smallfont\&quot;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;

Seriously. That's what I'm saying, you and some others are sick of Mario and that whole cast of characters that pop up in party games like Golf, Kart, and Smash Brothers, along with mushrooms, and flower power, and all that.

I'm not tired of it. . . .I actually missed out on a lot of the SNES (I owned one for a couple years and then pawned it, probably to buy real mushrooms) and N64 generation, for one I hit college and was more interested in partying and women than in console gaming, and then when I got back into console gaming in the mid 90's it was NOT for cute Mario and the N64, it was for the the Ps1 and the kind of violent realism I'd never seen on a Nintendo system. I was an early/mid 20's guy and I wanted to kill stuff. So for me, I never burnt myself out by over-exposure to Nintendo games. I did finally pick up an N64 towards the end of its life span and am still actually catching up on some of its best games.

So, you HATE mario and are tired of him. And that's what I was saying about your and other's posts having little connection to the substantive quality or originality of the new Nintendo games. I may not be burnt out on the Mario universe from a long absence from it, but I've played most of the big ninendo games, all the Mario Karts, all the Mario games, almost all the Zelda's (never did play the first one, which I'm getting ready to remedy with the compliation disk.) So I do feel qualified to comment on whether something is a rehash, or whether it adds major twists and new content.

And for all your &quot;rotting-mushroom&quot; bile, you were unable to refute or even address the point I made about all the substantive additions to Mario Kart, or answer how any other racing sequel has added more new game-play enhancements than this one. And that really proves my point.

Whatever, the way you carry on with this torch for nintendo, you'd think you had shares in the company. Get over it, a lot of people are sick of this cast of characters, are tired by the kart-racing genre in gerneral. I don't know if you've kept up, but the Tony Hawk games generate fewer and fewer sales because people are basically bored by the series. Extreme sports games in general have taken a pounding.

You're stoked by the additions to Mario Kart, well bully for you, and frankly who cares. The opinions I express are mine own and I don't expect nor do I care if people agree with them. It's not material. Neither are your protestations material. Have you actually done a side by side graphical analysis of mario kart 64 and mk:dd vs. GT for the psone and GT3 for the ps2. Or are you just pulling another one out the rear.

One would expect that in three generations of hardware nintendo might be able to come up with something to replace the mario kart series, but noooooo!!!! One would expect in 4 generations of hardware Nintendo would come up with something to replace the mario and zelda franchises, but nooooooo!!!!!! Get it now, or is still too tough for the thick shelled nintendo koopa troopers out there. You guys are both clueless and hopeless. Each generation nintendo loses ground, and you dimwits can't figure out why?

Debating with you guys is like debating with a religious fanatic or a brick wall. Take your pick. The sales numbers tell the sad story. The gc is currently the worst selling nintendo console ever. Care to disupte that?

[Gadfly2317]

<div class=\"smallfont\">Whatever, the way you carry on with this torch for nintendo, you'd think you had shares in the company. Get over it, a lot of people are sick of this cast of characters, are tired by the kart-racing genre in gerneral. I don't know if you've kept up, but the Tony Hawk games generate fewer and fewer sales because people are basically bored by the series. Extreme sports games in general have taken a pounding.

You're stoked by the additions to Mario Kart, well bully for you, and frankly who cares. The opinions I express are mine own and I don't expect nor do I care if people agree with them. It's not material. Neither are your protestations material. Have you actually done a side by side graphical analysis of mario kart 64 and mk:dd vs. GT for the psone and GT3 for the ps2. Or are you just pulling another one out the rear.

One would expect that in three generations of hardware nintendo might be able to come up with something to replace the mario kart series, but noooooo!!!! One would expect in 4 generations of hardware Nintendo would come up with something to replace the mario and zelda franchises, but nooooooo!!!!!! Get it now, or is still too tough for the thick shelled nintendo koopa troopers out there. You guys are both clueless and hopeless. Each generation nintendo loses ground, and you dimwits can't figure out why?

Debating with you guys is like debating with a religious fanatic or a brick wall. Take your pick. The sales numbers tell the sad story. The gc is currently the worst selling nintendo console ever. Care to disupte that?</div>

As far as I can tell you aren't debating at all. To do that would be to address any points, rather than going off on bilous tangents. And its a pretty simple, basic point, especially on this racing game thing. You can claim your "opinion" all you want, but I listed a number of objective, irrefutible additions to the series that hardly qualify it as a rehash. If you call it a rehash, and that's your opinion, then if you applied your opinion consistently then ALL racing games, not just the sequels, are rehashes. I'm still curious to hear anyone come up with a racing sequel that has more total game-play changes than Mario Kart: DD.

[massimodo]

<div class=\"smallfont\"></div>

As far as I can tell you aren't debating at all. To do that would be to address any points, rather than going off on bilous tangents. And its a pretty simple, basic point, especially on this racing game thing. You can claim your "opinion" all you want, but I listed a number of objective, irrefutible additions to the series that hardly qualify it as a rehash. If you call it a rehash, and that's your opinion, then if you applied your opinion consistently then ALL racing games, not just the sequels, are rehashes. I'm still curious to hear anyone come up with a racing sequel that has more total game-play changes than Mario Kart: DD.

What would be the point, there are a multitude of improvements that are done annually to sports titles and racing sequels such as the GT series or PGR that you would dismiss as irrelevant. You're not objective in the slightest, never have been. And that pretty much goes for most of the nintendo zealots. You guys are all just pissed because some of the reviewers didn't crown this game the greatest racing title ever, instead, they rated it less than great. You guys are getting flack because of your nauseating arrogance. How many posts did you put up reviling the xbox lineup and talking about what would the xbox do when the gamecube lineup rolled into action. Yeah, like what?

You don't appreciate games like GT or sports titles nor do you understand the many and numerous improvements that go into each and every annual update. In a football title, it can be something like getting the screen play to work properly. Madden 2001 and 2002 had problems with this that the 2003 version finally addressed. It's the type of thing that rarely if ever gets mentioned in a review, but if you're serious about your football, you're aware of it.

Is Mario Kart : DD a rehash of Mario Kart 64? Well, it's the mario kart for the gc. And basically it's still a kart game with nintendo franchise characters, with the same structure as before. You're having crazy fun with the co-op mode. Well, I'm so thrilled for you, I'm beside myself. When are you going to get it, that liking or not liking a game is a matter of personal preference. And that if a person doesn't like a game or a series, that it doesn't make them ignorant or tasteless, it just means they don't share your perspective.

What I see is a nintendo that is giving me the same old mario character going woo-woo, it's a me, a mario. And frankly, I've had it. I'm bored stiff by Nintendo's lack of presentation in their games, their failure to realize the graphic potential of the hardware, their simplistic music compositions and their recycling of game design. 50cc, 100cc, 150cc grand prix modes, got it. You got the what, the four cups, got it. You got the battle modes, got it. You got the familar nintendo characters, got it. You still get off on this stuff, fine, this stuff makes me puke. I go to the EB kiosk and it's fascinating to see the reactions of some of the people. I'm not the only one watching this game with raised eyebrows and a derisive attitude.

Nintendo has become the most commercially obnoxious videogame producer in the world and is fast becoming the most creatively bankrupt. Their latest press release indicates they will press their franchise characters even more heavily than before, and they will continure to dumb down games to appeal to a broader audience. I think Nintendo realizes the futility of appealing to seasoned gamers bored by their repetitive antics, and so will concentrate on bringing new gamers into the fold. As nintendo is forced to cut the time down between rehashes, er.. sequels, the legendary nintendo quality will rapidly deteriorate.

As for your big racing feature showdown, I neither have the time, familiarilty nor the inclination to do a big comparo on features. Last time I did it with Splinter Cell, comparing the gc and xbox versions, it was largely dismissed by guys like you, so sorry, I'm not wasting my time on this. I'll leave it to the GT and PGR fanatics to profile all the differences between the varioius versions both of which I'm sure will trump the Mario series.

Like the game by all means, but leave the persecution complex at home already. It's system wars, not a nintendo love-in. What did you expect when you started this thread, anyway?

["The Game"Evolution]

<div class=\"smallfont\">What would be the point, there are a multitude of improvements that are done annually to sports titles and racing sequels such as the GT series or PGR that you would dismiss as irrelevant. You're not objective in the slightest, never have been. And that pretty much goes for most of the nintendo zealots. You guys are all just pissed because some of the reviewers didn't crown this game the greatest racing title ever, instead, they rated it less than great. You guys are getting flack because of your nauseating arrogance. How many posts did you put up reviling the xbox lineup and talking about what would the xbox do when the gamecube lineup rolled into action. Yeah, like what?

You don't appreciate games like GT or sports titles nor do you understand the many and numerous improvements that go into each and every annual update. In a football title, it can be something like getting the screen play to work properly. Madden 2001 and 2002 had problems with this that the 2003 version finally addressed. It's the type of thing that rarely if ever gets mentioned in a review, but if you're serious about your football, you're aware of it.

Is Mario Kart : DD a rehash of Mario Kart 64? Well, it's the mario kart for the gc. And basically it's still a kart game with nintendo franchise characters, with the same structure as before. You're having crazy fun with the co-op mode. Well, I'm so thrilled for you, I'm beside myself. When are you going to get it, that liking or not liking a game is a matter of personal preference. And that if a person doesn't like a game or a series, that it doesn't make them ignorant or tasteless, it just means they don't share your perspective.

What I see is a nintendo that is giving me the same old mario character going woo-woo, it's a me, a mario. And frankly, I've had it. I'm bored stiff by Nintendo's lack of presentation in their games, their failure to realize the graphic potential of the hardware, their simplistic music compositions and their recycling of game design. 50cc, 100cc, 150cc grand prix modes, got it. You got the what, the four cups, got it. You got the battle modes, got it. You got the familar nintendo characters, got it. You still get off on this stuff, fine, this stuff makes me puke. I go to the EB kiosk and it's fascinating to see the reactions of some of the people. I'm not the only one watching this game with raised eyebrows and a derisive attitude.

Nintendo has become the most commercially obnoxious videogame producer in the world and is fast becoming the most creatively bankrupt. Their latest press release indicates they will press their franchise characters even more heavily than before, and they will continure to dumb down games to appeal to a broader audience. I think Nintendo realizes the futility of appealing to seasoned gamers bored by their repetitive antics, and so will concentrate on bringing new gamers into the fold. As nintendo is forced to cut the time down between rehashes, er.. sequels, the legendary nintendo quality will rapidly deteriorate.

As for your big racing feature showdown, I neither have the time, familiarilty nor the inclination to do a big comparo on features. Last time I did it with Splinter Cell, comparing the gc and xbox versions, it was largely dismissed by guys like you, so sorry, I'm not wasting my time on this. I'll leave it to the GT and PGR fanatics to profile all the differences between the varioius versions both of which I'm sure will trump the Mario series.

Like the game by all means, but leave the persecution complex at home already. It's system wars, not a nintendo love-in. What did you expect when you started this thread, anyway?</div>

Nintendo love-in? Kind of like"Love American Style" huh? Eww..I'm showing my age now.Nevermind.Good post Massi.

[Gadfly2317]

<div class=\"smallfont\">You guys are all just pissed because some of the reviewers didn't crown this game the greatest racing title ever, instead, they rated it less than great.</div>

Mass, no one is pissed about poor reviews. Overall the game has gotten exceptional reviews and high scores. It certainly doesn't bother me that one or two reviewers had a few problems with it and didn't give it perfect scores like many reviewers did. I don't think it is a perfect game--it should have been online, and the vs. battle modes should have featured more, and bigger arenas. All I've said is that it is qualitatively not a rehash when it has more new features than any racing sequel I've played. The only thing you seem to point out when you say "rehash" is that they use Nintendo characters. That would be like blaming Loony Toons for featuring bugs bunny in a new cartoon. Like I said, you hate Mario and the "itsa me" thing. That's fine, but your "rehash" comments have nothing to do with the substance of they game. You just hate they style.

<div class=\"smallfont\">You don't appreciate games like GT or sports titles nor do you understand the many and numerous improvements that go into each and every annual update. In a football title, it can be something like getting the screen play to work properly. </div>

I don't appreciate games like GT? Where did you get that, from my statement that GT is one of my favorite games of all times? I've spent more hours playing GT than any racing game ever made. Oh yeah, and I'm glad you're willing to pay 50 dollars to buy the exact same football game because they worked out a few more bugs. MK DD is a rehash and the same old game because it is "still basically a Kart game" as you say, despite nearly a dozen game play changes that have you doing things you've never done in the series before? So, these sequels that people line-up for and buy every year are not "still basically a football game" where you do the same exact thing you've done a billion times before? Do you not see that I'm irritated by the hypocrisy, and not that you don't like Mario Kart?

<div class=\"smallfont\">When are you going to get it, that liking or not liking a game is a matter of personal preference. And that if a person doesn't like a game or a series, that it doesn't make them ignorant or tasteless, it just means they don't share your perspective.</div>

Mass, I know that LIKING a game is a matter of personal preference. I would never call a person ignorant for not liking a game that I like (though I might call them tasteless :D.) The thing is you, and several other people I was addressing, didn't just say they didn't like the game. I was addressing as ignorant and hypocritical the blanket statement that the game is a "rehash" and "the same old game." I called those statements ignorant (which means they lacked knowledge of the topic) because they were NOT backed up by any concrete reasons, other than in your case, when you griped because Mario Kart had Mario in it. I can say the moon is made of cheese, but unless I provide something to back that statement up, its just an ignorant statement.

<div class=\"smallfont\">I neither have the time, familiarilty nor the inclination to do a big comparo on features. Last time I did it with Splinter Cell, comparing the gc and xbox versions, it was largely dismissed by guys like you.</div>

Oh get over yourself, crybaby. I, and many other people, complimented your meticulous and overall excellent splinter cell version comparison. It was one of the highest quality posts ever made here. What, you're upset because it sparked some critique and serious discussion? Because we felt it focused more on graphics than on whether or not it had the same exact game-play on all systems, and that philosphically, some of us think game-play is the most important thing?

Look, you don't have to answer my racing-sequel question, which wouldn't require the kind of epic response you gave on Splinter Cell. Anyone can answer this, and they've all refused, including Geoff and The Game, who were more than happy to throw out the claim "rehash" but unable to back it up. It's a simple question, if Mario Kart is a rehash despite all the new game changes, what big changes keep any racing sequel from being called a rehash? Like I said, I don't care what people like, that's a total personal and subjective matter of taste. But I stick by my statement that anyone who claims Mario Kart is a rehash and the same old game is simply IGNORANT, or else a HYPOCRITE.

[shogun]

Is Mario Kart: DD a rehash? It depends really...what's your definition of a rehash? If you want to be strict about it, pretty much every sequel borrows heavily from its predecessor...so it's not a stretch to call any game with a number in the title a rehash. Not that it matters reaslly...it's all in the eye of the beholder...the only problem I have is when that beholder seems to be pretty short on consistancy.

Watching Mass bash DD as a rehash...and then go on to laud sports games for fixing bugs between iterations is very telling. Double Dash hardly attempts to reinvent the wheel, but the gameplay innovations are far more signifigant than fixing things that shouldn't have been broken in the first place. Is it hypocracy? Perhaps. A double standard? Without a doubt. But it makes sense if you look at where him, and the majority of these bashers come from.

The majority of Mass's experince with GC comes from looking at screenshots and reviews...he doesn't own a GC. The screenshots show him the same Nintendo characters...sure looks like a rehash based on those. As for the reviews....the bad ones can be selectively remembered and taken as truth, while good reviews are passed of as being written by "nintendo brownies." It quickly becomes clear how easy it is to develop his opinion on Nintendo games.

But wait? Didn't he play Double Dash? Yep...on easy mode, only to complain that it was too easy.

Wait a sec...aren't there higher difficulty levels to challenge older players?....Yep, but he didn't want to play them...as he mentioned earlier in this thread, he doesn't want to bother. I can see where he's coming from....playing it more would only reveal more of the gameplay differences between it and previous versions, while proving some of his preconceptions wrong...and since the only real reason he would play MK: DD is for system wars ammo, what would be the point? I mean really..when Mass goes into an eb or the like, and sees Double Dash playing on the GC kiosk...do you think he's playing it to see if he likes it, or playing it to prove himself right? The answer is pretty clear..he ignored the tougher difficulty levels. :o

["The Game"Evolution]

<div class=\"smallfont\">Is Mario Kart: DD a rehash? It depends really...what's your definition of a rehash? If you want to be strict about it, pretty much every sequel borrows heavily from its predecessor...so it's not a stretch to call any game with a number in the title a rehash. Not that it matters reaslly...it's all in the eye of the beholder...the only problem I have is when that beholder seems to be pretty short on consistancy.

Watching Mass bash DD as a rehash...and then go on to laud sports games for fixing bugs between iterations is very telling. Double Dash hardly attempts to reinvent the wheel, but the gameplay innovations are far more signifigant than fixing things that shouldn't have been broken in the first place. Is it hypocracy? Perhaps. A double standard? Without a doubt. But it makes sense if you look at where him, and the majority of these bashers come from.

The majority of Mass's experince with GC comes from looking at screenshots and reviews...he doesn't own a GC. The screenshots show him the same Nintendo characters...sure looks like a rehash based on those. As for the reviews....the bad ones can be selectively remembered and taken as truth, while good reviews are passed of as being written by "nintendo brownies." It quickly becomes clear how easy it is to develop his opinion on Nintendo games.

But wait? Didn't he play Double Dash? Yep...on easy mode, only to complain that it was too easy.

Wait a sec...aren't there higher difficulty levels to challenge older players?....Yep, but he didn't want to play them...as he mentioned earlier in this thread, he doesn't want to bother. I can see where he's coming from....playing it more would only reveal more of the gameplay differences between it and previous versions, while proving some of his preconceptions wrong...and since the only real reason he would play MK: DD is for system wars ammo, what would be the point? I mean really..when Mass goes into an eb or the like, and sees Double Dash playing on the GC kiosk...do you think he's playing it to see if he likes it, or playing it to prove himself right? The answer is pretty clear..he ignored the tougher difficulty levels. :o</div>

You talk about difficulty levels? LOL! Wasnt it game critics that claimed that F-Zero and Mega Man:Network Transmission was too hard to finish on the GC? LOL! As if that wasnt funny enough both versions of Splinter Cell that was on the Gamecube and the PS2 was watered down because of its difficulty level.The Xbox's version didnt have a difficulty level.You just had to deal with it.Imagine that.

Getting back to Mario Kart.How many times must we go through this.Other than better graphics,a co-op mode,and different vehicles this game is pretty much the same game that we all have seen before.Its a rehash.A good one though.Thats not saying the game isnt worth playing.

Hell I actually thought it was pretty fun.(My team was Wario & Bowser;pretty evil duo) Other than that I really wouldnt take this game seriously though.Its a fun party game I'm sure.But if this game would've been online the game experience would've been even better.

From here on out I am going to try not to judge a game until I get to play it for myself.But think what you wish"Brownies" Mario Kart for the GC is a cool game,but its still a rehash of the N64 classic.

[slade]

You sure talk a lot about online when you don't even have X-box Live, Game.

[shogun]

<div class=\"smallfont\"><div class=\"smallfont\"></div>
"You talk about difficulty levels? LOL! Wasnt it game critics that claimed that F-Zero and Mega Man:Network Transmission was too hard to finish on the GC? LOL!"
</div>

To be honest, I have no idea what this mini-rant has to do with what I was talking about. The argument was based on the fact that Mass has zero right to claim the DD is too easy, when he refuses to attempt the game at a harder difficulty setting.

Oh, and people *****ed about those FZero and MegaMan being too hard...in my eyes, that's a good thing, since GC seems to have an image of being full of easy games...a reputation it does not deserve.

"As if that wasnt funny enough both versions of Splinter Cell that was on the Gamecube and the PS2 was watered down because of its difficulty level.The Xbox's version didnt have a difficulty level.You just had to deal with it.Imagine that."

Uh huh...I've heard this from XBox owners a a few times now, and have to admit it's pretty funny. I guess they use the fact that the PS2 and GC versions were made easier, as a sign that XBox gamers are more "hardcore" or something. Thing is, the game was made easier in responce to complaints by owners of the XBox version that the game was too hard. The devs listened to the feedback, and changed the game accordingly.

"Getting back to Mario Kart..."

Hm. As I said, depending on how innovative you want your games, Mario Kart can easily qualify as a rehash...just remember that the same standards damn a LOT of good XBox games to the same fate. It doesn't necessarily mean they're bad games...but Panzer Dragoon, Halo, DOA, Doom and the like aren't going to win any crowns of innovation either.

[GamingKnight]

Gamers...

It doesn't matter if a game is a rehash or not. The same way people continue to play any Gran Turismo, or any mario game, or any Zelda game, or any final fantasy, or the next Halo, or the next Half Life, or the next sports title, or the next space shooter...is because of one thing.

They are enjoyable to each his own.

It makes no sense keeping this thread or any threads like it, moving. You're just making the problem worse. Either come up with a solution and think of a new idea that can be put into effect, or continue the problem by arguing about the same thing over and over, while making no actions to benifit from it.

This goes to all of you. ALL of you. Including me.

For Whom is the Game Made?
GamingKnight. Empire Arcadia.
Knights of Empire Arcadia.
Hail to the Empire.

[Gadfly2317]

<div class=\"smallfont\">[QUOTE=GamingKnight]Gamers...

It doesn't matter if a game is a rehash or not. The same way people continue to play any Gran Turismo, or any mario game, or any Zelda game, or any final fantasy, or the next Halo, or the next Half Life, or the next sports title, or the next space shooter...is because of one thing.

They are enjoyable to each his own.

It makes no sense keeping this thread or any threads like it, moving. You're just making the problem worse. Either come up with a solution and think of a new idea that can be put into effect, or continue the problem by arguing about the same thing over and over, while making no actions to benifit from it.

This goes to all of you. ALL of you. Including me.

QUOTE]</div>

True. There are many enjoyable rehashes. And you are probably right, it is pointless to argue with chimps who won't address a single point you make. But there was a result: we did point out the many new ideas that were actually implemented in the new MK game. We addressed the point that yes, ALL racing games are pretty much like all racing games--you go around the track and try to win. We also learned that NO ONE at system's wars who snidely dismissed MK "the same old game" and "rehash" was able to come up with another racing sequel--including the excellent Gran Turismo games--that implemented more tangible game-play changes than MK DD--most racing sequels are nothing more than prettier graphics, more cars, and new tracks.

So we DID see something tangible demonstrated as a result of this excercise: Either Mario Kart--with co-op mode, multiple weapons to juggle, system link, a new kart/character combination system and new types of battle modes--is a step forward for this racing series, or else ALL racing sequels are just "the same old game."

[Darwin]

<div class=\"smallfont\">You sure talk a lot about online when you don't even have X-box Live, Game.</div>

hmmm... which brings the question (and I'm not trying to incite Game into an argument): but, why haven't you gotten Live yet, Game?

[Darwin]

<div class=\"smallfont\"><div class=\"smallfont\"></div>

Wasnt it game critics that claimed that F-Zero and Mega Man:Network Transmission was too hard to finish on the GC?</div>

Actually, this is a good aspect of F-zero. The game does have easier levels so that gamers can have fun right away. However, unless a game (especially racing games) offers an expert or "uber-hard" mode, then the game loses a lot of replay value. There needs to be a high standard to shoot for in order to get the most out of these games. I actually was impressed with how freakin hard F-zero is on the higher difficulty levels. I don't agree with all the tactics the game uses to make the game hard (rubber-banding, ruthless AI who ram you), but the game can offer a significant challenge to those that want it.

Take Project Gotham 2, for example. They've expanded the difficulty levels to appeal to a wider audience, while still retaining the tough-as-nails difficulty for those who choose it. Without the platinum awards (the difficulty level in which I cannot even come close to medaling), there is no challenge for the extreme players or the players who've played PG2 for 100+ hours. And with PG2, it is not necessary to pick this highest level, it's a choice.

[trebor]

Looks like several Xboyz® in this thread are relying on their tried and true debating techniques - lies, half-truths and deceit. I'm getting sick of all the false information you jokers spew on a daily basis.

For one thing, to say that Nintendo just releases "rehashes" like Mario Kart, Mario Party and Mario Golf, while deliberately ignoring releases like Animal Crossing, Pikmin and Eternal Darkness, all new Nintendo franchises, just shows what kind of hypocrites these Xbots really are. It's easy to make false claims when you withhold information.

Twisting the facts in order to present your fetid little arguments, the Xboyz® completely distort the truth. I hope the non-System Wars regulars can see through the lies that are presented against the Gamecube.

["The Game"Evolution]

<div class=\"smallfont\"><div class=\"smallfont\"></div>

hmmm... which brings the question (and I'm not trying to incite Game into an argument): but, why haven't you gotten Live yet, Game?</div>

One day I'll be able to own Live.Just not now.

[Gadfly2317]

<div class=\"smallfont\"><div class=\"smallfont\"></div>

One day I'll be able to own Live.Just not now.</div>


Well, its basically free for 2 mos with crimson skies? But I guess if you're too poor to be able to afford a $99 dollar gamecube. Obviously you want one, that's why you keep trolling down in the Gamecube forum.

The real reason you aren't on live is because then the other xbox online fans here would see what a truly lousy gamer you are (uh, how do I get through this tutorial.)

And that's your real hang-up with Nintendo games. . . you haven't got the skills for games like F-Zero and Ikaruga. That's OBVIOUS. You just play those slow paced wal-around-and-shoot stuff- games that you can get through with a players guide book. Games like F-Zero, MOnkey Ball and Ikaruga--no cheat book on earth can help you with the old school challenges there.

You call yourself old school, and that loved your N64 so much (because it had so many easy kiddy games on it) and now that nintendo has thrown down the gauntlet with HARD oldschool challenges that no old schooler would miss if they valued their gaming rep, whatta you do? You run like a chicken "oh, I is too scared, I is never gonna own a gamecube I is too poor from working at Wal-Mart."

[shogun]

Speaking of oldskool, I just picked up "Arcade Advanced" on my GBA for $10. Playing games like Frogger, Gyrus and Rush N Attack, makes me remember how much friggin' harder games were back in the day.

(oh yeah, and you can input the Konami code to get enhanced graphics on all the games...nostalgia indeed :D )

[Gadfly2317]

<div class=\"smallfont\"><div class=\"smallfont\"></div>

To be honest, I have no idea what this mini-rant has to do with what I was talking about. The argument was based on the fact that Mass has zero right to claim the DD is too easy, when he refuses to attempt the game at a harder difficulty setting.

Oh, and people *****ed about those FZero and MegaMan being too hard...in my eyes, that's a good thing, since GC seems to have an image of being full of easy games...a reputation it does not deserve.

"As if that wasnt funny enough both versions of Splinter Cell that was on the Gamecube and the PS2 was watered down because of its difficulty level.The Xbox's version didnt have a difficulty level.You just had to deal with it.Imagine that."

Uh huh...I've heard this from XBox owners a a few times now, and have to admit it's pretty funny. I guess they use the fact that the PS2 and GC versions were made easier, as a sign that XBox gamers are more "hardcore" or something. Thing is, the game was made easier in responce to complaints by owners of the XBox version that the game was too hard. The devs listened to the feedback, and changed the game accordingly.

"Getting back to Mario Kart..."

Hm. As I said, depending on how innovative you want your games, Mario Kart can easily qualify as a rehash...just remember that the same standards damn a LOT of good XBox games to the same fate. It doesn't necessarily mean they're bad games...but Panzer Dragoon, Halo, DOA, Doom and the like aren't going to win any crowns of innovation either.</div>

Good posts Shogun. One thing though, it really is a misconception that the game is "easier" on Ps2 and gamecube. It is the same exact game. The targetting control problems from the xbox version were cleaned up, but you NEVER want a game's difficulty to stem from shoddy controls.

One thing that helped trigger the "GC Version is Easier" debate is that you can hook up your GBA to the GC and use it as a radar to spot enemies, and to get an extra weapon (sticky bombs.) This is an OPTION that you can use if you want to, and while you might argue it makes it "easier" you could also argue that it makes it different, and having more options and styles of game play adds replay value.

And back to Mario Kart, it is NOT easy. I had NO PROBLEM blowing through all of the N64 tracks and getting all the Gold Trophys in just a couple trys. I STILL am missing two gold trophys in MK DD; the 50cc modes are easy, but the 150 modes are brutal.

["The Game"Evolution]

<div class=\"smallfont\"><div class=\"smallfont\"></div>


Well, its basically free for 2 mos with crimson skies? But I guess if you're too poor to be able to afford a $99 dollar gamecube. Obviously you want one, that's why you keep trolling down in the Gamecube forum.

The real reason you aren't on live is because then the other xbox online fans here would see what a truly lousy gamer you are (uh, how do I get through this tutorial.)

And that's your real hang-up with Nintendo games. . . you haven't got the skills for games like F-Zero and Ikaruga. That's OBVIOUS. You just play those slow paced wal-around-and-shoot stuff- games that you can get through with a players guide book. Games like F-Zero, MOnkey Ball and Ikaruga--no cheat book on earth can help you with the old school challenges there.

You call yourself old school, and that loved your N64 so much (because it had so many easy kiddy games on it) and now that nintendo has thrown down the gauntlet with HARD oldschool challenges that no old schooler would miss if they valued their gaming rep, whatta you do? You run like a chicken "oh, I is too scared, I is never gonna own a gamecube I is too poor from working at Wal-Mart."</div>

I really dont have to explain myself to you Gadfly.Right now Xbox live just doesnt fit into my budget right now.Believe me when I do get Xbox live I'll make sure my presence is known.A lousy gamer? Me? LOL! Is that right? Maybe one day I'll get to prove it too you.Such ugliness.You're sure your an adult?

And once again let me say that the GC is an inferior console to me.The PS2 and the Xbox clearly is the better consoles.Thats why I have them.Just because the GC is cheap doesnt mean jack to me.I still have my N64.Thats good enough to rekindle old Nintendo games.Dont need to waste my money on something as worthless as the GC.

You talk about games like Ikaruga and F-Zero being hard? LOL! Spare me garcon.I'll put those two games against NES classics like Ghosts N' Goblins & Rygar any day of the week.And you want to talk about hard shooters? Try the NES classic called Gradius and the Sega Genesis's shooter called Gaires .You have no idea what hard games are.

I've owned every Nintendo console thats ever been made.(NES,SNES,Gameboy Advance)Every single console that was worth something from the Odyssey 2,the Atari 2600,The NES,The Sega Genesis,The SNES,The 3DO,the Atari 600 XL,The Sony PSX,The Sega Dreamcast,the N64,the PS2,and last but not least the Xbox.

Plus I love all genres.I've played and beaten some of the hardest games over my 20+ years of gaming.

A matter a fact why dont we make a top ten list of the hardest old school games to end on any console Gadfly? How about it? I'd love to see what games you pick.Since you're supposed to be so old school.

I never run from a challenge.I embrace it.But owning a GC definately for me is taking a step backwards than taking a step forwards.But if you want to continue with your P.M.S.attitude Gadfly feel free.I dont need to stoop to your level to get my point across.

[Gadfly2317]

<div class=\"smallfont\"><div class=\"smallfont\"></div>

I really dont have to explain myself to you Gadfly.Right now Xbox live just doesnt fit into my budget right now.Believe me when I do get Xbox live I'll make sure my presence is known.A lousy gamer? Me? LOL! Is that right? Maybe one day I'll get to prove it too you.Such ugliness.You're sure your an adult?

And once again let me say that the GC is an inferior console to me.The PS2 and the Xbox clearly is the better consoles.Thats why I have them.Just because the GC is cheap doesnt mean jack to me.I still have my N64.Thats good enough to rekindle old Nintendo games.Dont need to waste my money on something as worthless as the GC.

You talk about games like Ikaruga and F-Zero being hard? LOL! Spare me garcon.I'll put those two games against NES classics like Ghosts N' Goblins & Rygar any day of the week.And you want to talk about hard shooters? Try the NES classic called Gradius and the Sega Genesis's shooter called Gaires .You have no idea what hard games are.

I've owned every Nintendo console thats ever been made.(NES,SNES,Gameboy Advance)Every single console that was worth something from the Odyssey 2,the Atari 2600,The NES,The Sega Genesis,The SNES,The 3DO,the Atari 600 XL,The Sony PSX,The Sega Dreamcast,the N64,the PS2,and last but not least the Xbox.

Plus I love all genres.I've played and beaten some of the hardest games over my 20+ years of gaming.

A matter a fact why dont we make a top ten list of the hardest old school games to end on any console Gadfly? How about it? I'd love to see what games you pick.Since you're supposed to be so old school.

I never run from a challenge.I embrace it.But owning a GC definately for me is taking a step backwards than taking a step forwards.But if you want to continue with your P.M.S.attitude Gadfly feel free.I dont need to stoop to your level to get my point across.</div>

All these games and systems you claim to buy, but you can't afford $49 dollars a year ($4 a month) to get Live? I mean, not everyone WANTS LIVE, that is understandable since many people have friends with equitable skills, but any gamer who buys all the games you say you do and claims "someday" Live will fit there budget and that they will be there. . . .well; I mean, come on, are we suppposed to take you seriously? At least just LIE and tell us broadband isn't available where you live, rather than fnord insult our intelligence with the obvious contradiction. What, do you still live with your mom and she likes the cable/phone package shes got?

What could drive a person to such BS? You are actually in prison aren't you, using the library computer to do google searches about games you wish you could be playing and posting as though you actually have? Poor, poor "De-Evolution." Send me your location and inmate # and I'll send you the system of your choice. Maybe the warden will let you hook it up.

Watch yourself in the showers.