Top 15 Game Publishers

[trebor]

I know a lot of you hate things like numbers, facts and figures and to all of you who fall in that category I say....too bad.


Thursday, November 20, 2003
Top 15 Game Publishers Listed, Stock Prices Fall
6:18 AM | Jean-Luc Dinsdale | Comment on this story

Further to yesterday's news item on the results of gaming hardware and software sales for 2003, the U.S. Bancorp Piper Jaffray's Toy & Video Game Industry Primer November 2003 has also listed the top fifteen game publishers for the year-to-date.

The report charts software sales only, but covers the gamut of PC and console software sales. And while the report doesn't forecast sales figures for the 2003 holiday buying season, it does hint at where publishers will be by the end of the year. Sales figures listed below are in US dollars.

Topping the charts is Electronic Arts, dominating 20% of the market with nearly six hundred million dollars in sales. Next in line is Nintendo, commanding almost twelve percent of the market with $349 million in sales; Nintendo is followed by Sony's software publishing arm, claiming 7% of the market with over $206 million in sales. Sony's year-to-date sales figures have dropped half a percentage point from this time last year.

Following in their footsteps are the recently-renamed Atari and THQ, with $183 million and $177 million is sales, respectively. Atari's 6.2% marketshare far outpaces their performance for all of last year, when they only accounted for four and a half percent of all game software sales.

Languishing in their dust are Activision, Take Two Interactive, Konami, Ubisoft, and Namco, each ranging between 4.6% to 4.0% of the industry. Following them are console publishers Sega, who have dropped one and a half percent from this time last year, French-based Vivendi Universal whom, despite their hard corporate year, claim $87,222,580 in sales, increasing their market share from 2.1% last year to 2.9% this year, and Capcom whom have seen sales decrease by over three million dollars between now and this time last year.

Rounding off the list are Microsoft, whose market share has decreased by 0.5% with $78,441,010 in sales, and Acclaim who are showing a poor 2% market share compared to their 3.4% share this time last year.

Expectantly, stockholders reacted fearfully today in reaction to Tuesday's news of lackluster game sales, with stocks for many of the companies listed above falling over the day. The biggest losses where seen at Take-Two Interactive, whose stock fell over nine percent. Electronic Arts also took a hit, trading off 4.3% of their stock value. Most of the other publishers on the list lost around three percent of their stock value, with the exception of Atari, who managed a slight gain after a strong PR effort.


http://www.insidemacgames.com/news/story.php?ID=8751

Since a lot of you think that only software counts in the System Wars - this one is for you. It's encouraging to see that Nintendo is kicking Sony and M$'s behinds in the software department.

[Gadfly2317]

<div class=\"smallfont\">I know a lot of you hate things like numbers, facts and figures and to all of you who fall in that category I say....too bad.

Since a lot of you think that only software counts in the System Wars - this one is for you. It's encouraging to see that Nintendo is kicking Sony and M$'s behinds in the software department.</div>


I can't wait to see how this one gets spun. 12% to 2% of the game software market? How can anyone not believe that the MS games division is bleeding money like a sieve when it is behind financially ailing companies like Activision? The whole point of MS (or any console manufacturer) selling the hardware at a loss is for those software profits.

The main thing is that you get people going on about how third party stuff suffers on GC and how well it does on Xbox. But the thing is, if you can't make money on your first party stuff, what is the point of a company putting out a console? Sometimes I really do have a hard time believing MS is going to keep pouring money down this black hole.

[trebor]

I can't wait to see how this one gets spun. 12% to 2% of the game software market? How can anyone not believe that the MS games division is bleeding money like a sieve when it is behind financially ailing companies like Activision? The whole point of MS (or any console manufacturer) selling the hardware at a loss is for those software profits.

The main thing is that you get people going on about how third party stuff suffers on GC and how well it does on Xbox. But the thing is, if you can't make money on your first party stuff, what is the point of a company putting out a console? Sometimes I really do have a hard time believing MS is going to keep pouring money down this black hole.

Well, I thought that M$ was in the videogame industry just out of the goodness of their hearts. At least that is what a lot of Xboyz® imply when they go on tirades about Nintendo making money off of poor, suckers (consumers) like us.

To think that a company would be in an industry to make money - what is this world coming to?

[no.1gamer]

Yea, I think stockholders will get tired of burning all this money eventually. Considering how big of a loss the console itself takes only adds to the huge amount of money M$ is going through. I can't wait to hear how the Xbots respond to this information.

The dismal M$ market share of software also explains why I think the Xbox is a loser. Every once in a while the Xbox gets a good 3rd party game, but it usually goes multiplatform anyways. And because M$ can't make any halfway decent games themselves they are left with very few exclusives.

[trebor]

Yea, I think stockholders will get tired of burning all this money eventually. Considering how big of a loss the console itself takes only adds to the huge amount of money M$ is going through. I can't wait to hear how the Xbots respond to this information.

The dismal M$ market share of software also explains why I think the Xbox is a loser. Every once in a while the Xbox gets a good 3rd party game, but it usually goes multiplatform anyways. And because M$ can't make any halfway decent games themselves they are left with very few exclusives.

Well, the Xboyz will probably use one of two arguments...

(1) The only reason Nintendo sells so much software is because Nintendo fans will blindly buy anything Nintendo publishes.

-or-

(2) Sales don't count. Just like Japan doesn't count, Europe doesn't count and the months of September through November don't count for the NA market.

This is all standard stuff you'll read on page 17 of the "Xbot's guide to System Wars".

[tekbit]

<div class=\"smallfont\">Well, the Xboyz will probably use one of two arguments...

(1) The only reason Nintendo sells so much software is because Nintendo fans will blindly buy anything Nintendo publishes.

-or-

(2) Sales don't count. Just like Japan doesn't count, Europe doesn't count and the months of September through November don't count for the NA market.

This is all standard stuff you'll read on page 17 of the "Xbot's guide to System Wars".</div>

LMAO :p Very informative post Trebor. That definetly helps to put the whole thing in a better prespective. And to think that Nintendo is allegedly still breaking even with their low price, that means that those software sales matter that much more. While Xbox continues to drain the blood from MS. I do wonder what the rebuttal from the Xbots will be.

[Cuddly Knife]

That was a very interesting article. It's nice to see Atari is one a steady rise, after dying once and being brought back to life. To think that they were the only company to post a gain.....And what games other than Ikaruga has Atari come out with?

Can someone give me a list of all first party games that Sony, Nintendo, and MS have put out since the release of the current generation of systems?

[dafunkdoc]

<div class=\"smallfont\">Well, the Xboyz will probably use one of two arguments...

(1) The only reason Nintendo sells so much software is because Nintendo fans will blindly buy anything Nintendo publishes.

-or-

(2) Sales don't count. Just like Japan doesn't count, Europe doesn't count and the months of September through November don't count for the NA market.

This is all standard stuff you'll read on page 17 of the "Xbot's guide to System Wars".</div>

Pokemon=most of Nintendo's sales You forgot that one.

[trebor]

That was a very interesting article. It's nice to see Atari is one a steady rise, after dying once and being brought back to life. To think that they were the only company to post a gain.....And what games other than Ikaruga has Atari come out with?

Can someone give me a list of all first party games that Sony, Nintendo, and MS have put out since the release of the current generation of systems?

I might be wrong, but I believe that Atari and Infogrames are/were the same company. So look for Infogrames titles to see more Atari stuff.

[geoff2]

I can't believe sega is not in a better position by now. When they first went 3rd party their objective was to compete with EA and in my opinion they have what it takes to do so. It's sad to see their sales still lagging when they've put out great titles like ESPN football which is better than madden this year. They also show the consumer love by making their games online for both ps2 and xbox which can't be said for EA. They also release VF4:evolution for 20 bucks when the first VF4 just hit the greatest hits line.

Great company with titles that exceed the quality of a lot of those other houses, still they lag behind. Shame.

["The Game"Evolution]

<div class=\"smallfont\">Well, the Xboyz will probably use one of two arguments...

(1) The only reason Nintendo sells so much software is because Nintendo fans will blindly buy anything Nintendo publishes.

-or-

(2) Sales don't count. Just like Japan doesn't count, Europe doesn't count and the months of September through November don't count for the NA market.

This is all standard stuff you'll read on page 17 of the "Xbot's guide to System Wars".</div>

I just got finished reading the latest Game Informer.Mario Party 5 just received the lowest overall score of the month.The Overall rating of a 2.

And just think last month RS III had the lowest with the overall rating of a 6.5.

Its good that Nintendo is selling lots of software and hardware.Because lately when it comes to the game reviews Sony and MS has been kicking Nintendo's ass.Other than Mario Kart,F-Zero,and the Zelda Bundle the quality of the GC's software hasnt made much noise as of late.

[Gadfly2317]

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I just got finished reading the latest Game Informer.Mario Party 5 just received the lowest overall score of the month.The Overall rating of a 2.

And just think last month RS III had the lowest with the overall rating of a 6.5.

Its good that Nintendo is selling lots of software and hardware.Because lately when it comes to the game reviews Sony and MS has been kicking Nintendo's ass.Other than Mario Kart,F-Zero,and the Zelda Bundle the quality of the GC's software hasnt made much noise as of late.</div>

I love that, "other than Mario Kart, F-Zero, Viewtiful Joe, Zelda Bundle" (along with the same great games everyone else is getting like Prince of Persia, BG&E, Goblin Commander, etc). . . the GC software hasn't made much noise." Yeah, hasn't made much noise, commanding 12% of the total software market to MS's 2%.

And by the way, RSIII's overall rating isn't 6.5--that's just what it got at one publication. Gamerankings composite score puts it at 75.3, which is a couple points behind the excellent Voodoo Vince at 78%. Many great and fun games have a few flaws that keep them from reaching 90+ scores, but are still very strong. The sales of Rogue Squadron almost doubled Crimson Skies in the US, despite xbox having over 1.2 million more users. If xbots don't start buying stuff besides dumb action and sport crap, pretty soon that's all that'll be on the system (and I'll be pissed since I bought one for things like Voodoo Vince and Crimson Skies.)

And finally, this is the 3rd post I've seen where you are on about Mario Party 5, a game no one has been hyping here. I fully expect to see you go into every thread, no matter what the topic, and try to find a way to go on about this game like you did with Billy Hatcher. I'll politely suggest again, save yourself the typing, and affix in your signature line the rating for whichever low scoring nintendo's kids game that you are currently fixated on .

["The Game"Evolution]

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I love that, "other than Mario Kart, F-Zero, Viewtiful Joe, Zelda Bundle" (along with the same great games everyone else is getting like Prince of Persia, BG&E, Goblin Commander, etc). . . the GC software hasn't made much noise." Yeah, hasn't made much noise, commanding 12% of the total software market to MS's 2%.

And by the way, RSIII's overall rating isn't 6.5--that's just what it got at one publication. Gamerankings composite score puts it at 75.3, which is a couple points behind the excellent Voodoo Vince at 78%. Many great and fun games have a few flaws that keep them from reaching 90+ scores, but are still very strong. The sales of Rogue Squadron almost doubled Crimson Skies in the US, despite xbox having over 1.2 million more users. If xbots don't start buying stuff besides dumb action and sport crap, pretty soon that's all that'll be on the system (and I'll be pissed since I bought one for things like Voodoo Vince and Crimson Skies.)

And finally, this is the 3rd post I've seen where you are on about Mario Party 5, a game no one has been hyping here. I fully expect to see you go into every thread, no matter what the topic, and try to find a way to go on about this game like you did with Billy Hatcher. I'll politely suggest again, save yourself the typing, and affix in your signature line the rating for whichever low scoring nintendo's kids game that you are currently fixated on .</div>

Yes Gamerankings did give RS III a 75.3% rating.Compare that to KOTOR's rating of over 90.0% Once again an Xbox title wipes its ass with a GC title.Yes RS did sell better than Crimson Skies.But which game had the better reviews? Crimson Skies.You can bring up whose got the best sales all you want,the truth is that Xbox 95% of the time has the better games over the GC.

Lets see P.N.03,Billy Hatcher,RS III,and now Mario Party 5 all dropped the ball.And you're trying to say that the Xbox doesnt have anything worth talking about these days compared to a mere handful of GC hopefuls? LOL! Stop while you can.If not I may have to bury you on this topic.

[Gadfly2317]

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Yes Gamerankings did give RS III a 75.3% rating.Compare that to KOTOR's rating of over 90.0% Once again an Xbox title wipes its ass with a GC title.Yes RS did sell better than Crimson Skies.But which game had the better reviews? Crimson Skies.You can bring up whose got the best sales all you want,the truth is that Xbox 95% of the time has the better games over the GC.

Lets see P.N.03,Billy Hatcher,RS III,and now Mario Party 5 all dropped the ball.And you're trying to say that the Xbox doesnt have anything worth talking about these days compared to a mere handful of GC hopefuls? LOL! Stop while you can.If not I may have to bury you on this topic.</div>

Yes, Crimson Skies had the better score. It is also a great game--I never said xbox had nothing worth talking about; what I'm saying about Crimson Skies and sales is that developers will make what people buy. If xbox gamers are going to ignore the best most original games on the system like Top Spin, Crimson Skies, and Voodoo Vince and PDO and etc, then we won't continue to see these kind of games. So basically I agree with you--god forbid--and have made the same point for a long time, that sales are not necessarily an indicator of quality, but they do signal to developers what the gaming herd wants.

KOTOR was in development for PC, and Xbox basically got the beta version.

And you aren't going to "bury" anybody making unsubstantiated and silly blurts like "the truth is that Xbox 95% of the time has the better games over the GC."

["The Game"Evolution]

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Yes, Crimson Skies had the better score. It is also a great game--I never said xbox had nothing worth talking about; what I'm saying about Crimson Skies and sales is that developers will make what people buy. If xbox gamers are going to ignore the best most original games on the system like Top Spin, Crimson Skies, and Voodoo Vince and PDO and etc, then we won't continue to see these kind of games. So basically I agree with you--god forbid--and have made the same point for a long time, that sales are not necessarily an indicator of quality, but they do signal to developers what the gaming herd wants.

KOTOR was in development for PC, and Xbox basically got the beta version.

And you aren't going to "bury" anybody making unsubstantiated and silly blurts like "the truth is that Xbox 95% of the time has the better games over the GC."</div>

Since you love bringing up Gamerankings so much anytime you want to compare the best GC reviews vs.the best Xbox reviews of this year step up to the plate Gadfly.Popularity does make big time statements when it comes to gaming.But that doesnt mean that those games are better than others that doesnt get as much attention either.Thats my point.

But since you wanted to go there here is a list of 9 of GC titles of 2003 vs. 9 Xbox titles of 2003.Review score vs.review score.Courtesy of Gamerankings.

Xbox:

GTA Bundle pack-93.8%
Morrowind GOTY Edition-87.3%
Rainbow Six 3-89.7%
Top Spin-89.6%
Project Gotham Racing 2-95.5%
ESPN Basketball-88.0%
KOTOR-94.3%
Crimson Skies-89.6%
PDO-90.6%

Gamecube:

RS III 76.1%
Billy Hatcher-73.3%
Viewtiful Joe-92.4%
Mario Kart-94.6%
Zelda 95.1%
P.N.03-67.0%
F-Zero-90.4%
Sonic Adventure 2:Battle-74.4%
Sonic Adventureirector's cut-59.4%

All of the games listed came out the year of 2003. 9 GC games vs. 9 Xbox titles.All review scores can be viewed on Gamerankings.com.

Anytime you're ready to comment on those scores Gadfly let er rip!

[Gadfly2317]

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Since you love bringing up Gamerankings so much anytime you want to compare the best GC reviews vs.the best Xbox reviews of this year step up to the plate Gadfly.Popularity does make big time statements when it comes to gaming.But that doesnt mean that those games are better than others that doesnt get as much attention either.Thats my point.

But since you wanted to go there here is a list of 9 of GC titles of 2003 vs. 9 Xbox titles of 2003.Review score vs.review score.Courtesy of Gamerankings.

Xbox:

GTA Bundle pack-93.8%
Morrowind GOTY Edition-87.3%
Rainbow Six 3-89.7%
Top Spin-89.6%
Project Gotham Racing 2-95.5%
ESPN Basketball-88.0%
KOTOR-94.3%
Crimson Skies-89.6%
PDO-90.6%

Gamecube:

RS III 76.1%
Billy Hatcher-73.3%
Viewtiful Joe-92.4%
Mario Kart-94.6%
Zelda 95.1%
P.N.03-67.0%
F-Zero-90.4%
Sonic Adventure 2:Battle-74.4%
Sonic Adventureirector's cut-59.4%

All of the games listed came out the year of 2003. 9 GC games vs. 9 Xbox titles.All review scores can be viewed on Gamerankings.com.

Anytime you're ready to comment on those scores Gadfly let er rip!</div>


So, 1st, you're allowed to count a mutli-system 2002 game like GTA that you picked up in 2003? That doesn't seem much different than adding Splinter Cell and Hitman II to the GC 2003 list.But I guess you wouldn't count those for GC 2003 since they are also on xbox---even though no 90+ gamecube game has ever showed up on xbox. Still, I'd count these 2 90+ games as a strength in the 2003 gamecube line-up.

And since half your list is available elsewhere, RS, KOTOR, ESPN, and Morrowind. . .and hell, you're counting a 2002 game repackaged with a couple expansion kits? Well, I guess that's ok. We'll just let it slide and leave it at the list you picked. Seems kind of odd you'd leave out true xbox exclusives from your list like Voodoo Vince and Grabbed by the Ghoulies and load your scores up with ports and even a PS2 sports game. Does that not seem a little hypocritical?

For gamecube you conveniently skip games like Ikaruga (86) and Mario Golf (81.8). And on the Sega remake front, Why don't you sub-out the Sonic: Director's cut with the remade Skies of Arcadia (87.1) I don't see how that's any different than counting PC ports. If we're gonna count PC games you can play on the xbox, I'm halfway inclined to list the A+ GBA games you can play on your gamecube. Oh well.

I'm pretty pleased with both line-ups. I really don't recall how this turned into a pissing contest between GC and Xbox, other than that just seems to be the way things go around here. I guess the thread is about software publisher marketshare, Nintendo 12% MS 2%. The only really relevant point in the thread is that if you can't sell 1st party software, you can't make money, and your system will flop. Was there ANY first or even second party xbox title you bothered to list besides Crimson Skies? Shouldn't Brute Force be on your list since this thread is about publisher marketshare and Brute Force was from MS? I mean, that's the only MS vs Nintendo that was originally going on in the thread was publisher market share.

Anyway, I'm too loaded to carry on anymore. Going to go stare at stupid TV now. Feel free to post a response and declare yourself the victor.

["The Game"Evolution]

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So, 1st, you're allowed to count a mutli-system 2002 game like GTA that you picked up in 2003? That doesn't seem much different than adding Splinter Cell and Hitman II to the GC 2003 list.But I guess you wouldn't count those for GC 2003 since they are also on xbox---even though no 90+ gamecube game has ever showed up on xbox. Still, I'd count these 2 90+ games as a strength in the 2003 gamecube line-up.

And since half your list is available elsewhere, RS, KOTOR, ESPN, and Morrowind. . .and hell, you're counting a 2002 game repackaged with a couple expansion kits? Well, I guess that's ok. We'll just let it slide and leave it at the list you picked. Seems kind of odd you'd leave out true xbox exclusives from your list like Voodoo Vince and Grabbed by the Ghoulies and load your scores up with ports and even a PS2 sports game. Does that not seem a little hypocritical?

For gamecube you conveniently skip games like Ikaruga (86) and Mario Golf (81.8). And on the Sega remake front, Why don't you sub-out the Sonic: Director's cut with the remade Skies of Arcadia (87.1) I don't see how that's any different than counting PC ports. If we're gonna count PC games you can play on the xbox, I'm halfway inclined to list the A+ GBA games you can play on your gamecube. Oh well.

I'm pretty pleased with both line-ups. I really don't recall how this turned into a pissing contest between GC and Xbox, other than that just seems to be the way things go around here. I guess the thread is about software publisher marketshare, Nintendo 12% MS 2%. The only really relevant point in the thread is that if you can't sell 1st party software, you can't make money, and your system will flop. Was there ANY first or even second party xbox title you bothered to list besides Crimson Skies? Shouldn't Brute Force be on your list since this thread is about publisher marketshare and Brute Force was from MS? I mean, that's the only MS vs Nintendo that was originally going on in the thread was publisher market share.

Anyway, I'm too loaded to carry on anymore. Going to go stare at stupid TV now. Feel free to post a response and declare yourself the victor.</div>

Since we are talking about console games only PC games dont count on this conversation.First off GTA isnt on the Gamecube is it? Nope.But it is on the Xbox right? Yes.So it counts.Plus remember I said games that came out this year.Anything that happened before then I'm not talking about.

Hell merely listed 9 games from the top of my head.And I did mention a few titles that just came out as well.I cant help it that some of the big titles that was supposed to been something on the GC turned out to be flops.(I'm still laughing at Mario Party 5 scoring the overall rating of a 2 in the latest Game Informer.And as crappy as Grabbed By The Ghoulies was it still outscored a Nintendo 1st party game.LOL)

Plus whats funny is most of the GC games that scored well indeed are the Nintendo mainstay titles.(with the exception of Ikuruga)And yes Ikuruga had over an 86% game rating.But Panzer Dragoon Orta still outscored it with well over 90% game rating.So I wouldnt bring that game up.

Skies Of Arcadia indeed was a cool game.But didnt the PS2 have that game too? Yep.This game is ssssooooo last year. Its still a great RPG but the last time I checked the PS2 and the Xbox has had RPG's of their own since then.PSO was a DC port just like Skies of Arcardia was.And Sonic was yet another DC port brought to the GC.Then you throw in the DC ports of Resident Evil 2,3,and Code Veronica.See a pattern here?

Either way it goes the Xbox gamewise has been there neck and neck with the GC.That Gadfly is undeniable.The thing that really sticks out here is the variety of Xbox titles that I listed compared to what you're talking about.That alone is what seperates the men list from the boys list.

Trust me Gadfly the GC can sell billions of cheap GC's all they want.And parents can buy countless copies of Mario Kart for the kids for X-mas.But it still doesnt change the fact that MS and Sony is truly light years ahead of Nintendo these days.

Yes the bargin basement console known as the GC is still the fun console with no extras to own for some .And thats all it will ever be.The little console on the outside looking in.

[Gadfly2317]

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Since we are talking about console games only PC games dont count on this conversation.First off GTA isnt on the Gamecube is it? Nope.But it is on the Xbox right? Yes.So it counts.Plus remember I said games that came out this year.Anything that happened before then I'm not talking about.

Hell merely listed 9 games from the top of my head.And I did mention a few titles that just came out as well.I cant help it that some of the big titles that was supposed to been something on the GC turned out to be flops.(I'm still laughing at Mario Party 5 scoring the overall rating of a 2 in the latest Game Informer.And as crappy as Grabbed By The Ghoulies was it still outscored a Nintendo 1st party game.LOL)

Plus whats funny is most of the GC games that scored well indeed are the Nintendo mainstay titles.(with the exception of Ikuruga)And yes Ikuruga had over an 86% game rating.But Panzer Dragoon Orta still outscored it with well over 90% game rating.So I wouldnt bring that game up.

Skies Of Arcadia indeed was a cool game.But didnt the PS2 have that game too? Yep.This game is ssssooooo last year. Its still a great RPG but the last time I checked the PS2 and the Xbox has had RPG's of their own since then.PSO was a DC port just like Skies of Arcardia was.And Sonic was yet another DC port brought to the GC.Then you throw in the DC ports of Resident Evil 2,3,and Code Veronica.See a pattern here?

Either way it goes the Xbox gamewise has been there neck and neck with the GC.That Gadfly is undeniable.The thing that really sticks out here is the variety of Xbox titles that I listed compared to what you're talking about.That alone is what seperates the men list from the boys list.

Trust me Gadfly the GC can sell billions of cheap GC's all they want.And parents can buy countless copies of Mario Kart for the kids for X-mas.But it still doesnt change the fact that MS and Sony is truly light years ahead of Nintendo these days.

Yes the bargin basement console known as the GC is still the fun console with no extras to own for some .And thats all it will ever be.The little console on the outside looking in.</div>

Suprisingly, this was a pretty good debate, at least up until this last post. You should have stopped while you were ahead with your 9 game comparison--which even subbing out some of your crappy GC selections for some better ones like Ikaruga, the average of the 9 games you selected was 90%xbox and 86%GC.. You don't need to defend GTA--I let you keep your whole list and tried to avoid a discussion on how its actually a system weakness when your best games are year old PS2 games and PC ports. I mean, its good in one sense in that if you only own an xbox you get to play those games. Definitely a plus. But it is one of the factors that is holding the xbox back.

At this point, I don't think we're actually arguing any thing. A good part of the xbox's high score has come from what has turned out to be a fall line-up with well received games like PGR2 and Topspin. And no, Skies of Arcadia was a dreamcast remake, not on PS2. I'm not sure how it is "so last year" when it came out the same time as PDO which you listed (and neither one sold very well, despite great reviews.)

Anyway, we've about worn this thread out. I agree that xbox and GC are neck and neck gamewise as far as quality recently. Xbox has slowly built a quality library after what was a really crappy first year and a half. That's why I finally bought one. What I don't get is why you feel the need to make silly statements after that like "xbox and PS2 are light years ahead gamewise." Why throw PS2 into it? Don't you feel like you can defend your xbox and its own merits without always teaming it with the PS2? I guess that would be a whole new thread. . . .which two systems are better to team together PS2 and Xbox, or PS2 and GC, or Xbox and GC. I guess most people consider PS2 essential because of the high number of titles on there, and the range of titles, lots of RPG's, big hit platformers, the biggest racing franchise ever in Gran Turismo, and then the monster hits GTA series and Metal Gear.

I do feel like three consoles would be more than I could realistically play. I picked and enjoy the combo of Xbox and GC for a couple reasons. One the GC and Xbox libraries are way more different from one another than are the PS2/Xbox libraries. GC/Xbox both offer better quality hardware, and both have games that I'm much more interested in. I can't imagine missing out on Zelda, Metroid, Fable, Crimson Skies, Ninja Gaiden, Mario Kart, Panzer Dragoon, Ikaruga, Pikmin, etc.

I don't have anything against PS2, its just that I've not gotten one this long, played it a lot at my cousins house, don't want to step backwards technologically, don't want to get disk read errors after a year, the games on it I originally wanted I've gotten on PC (Vice City) or now have better versions on Xbox (Silent Hill II, Metal Gear, Fatal Frame). Anything I miss out on by not getting a PS2, I figure I can play on the backwards-compatible PS3, unless it turns out to be a cheaply made, overpriced hunk of junk.

Anyway, for a rare change, you didn't annoy the crap out of me, though I do think your final attempt to slam the GC wasn't really you being ignorant (even thought the statement was), it was just an attempt to get a rise out of me. It didn't work. It's your loss that you're missing out on so many great games on such a great system. You are right about two things you said, the system IS a bargain and it is FUN. Can't imagine why any gamer would pass that up.

Good discussion.

["The Game"Evolution]

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Suprisingly, this was a pretty good debate, at least up until this last post. You should have stopped while you were ahead with your 9 game comparison--which even subbing out some of your crappy GC selections for some better ones like Ikaruga, the average of the 9 games you selected was 90%xbox and 86%GC.. You don't need to defend GTA--I let you keep your whole list and tried to avoid a discussion on how its actually a system weakness when your best games are year old PS2 games and PC ports. I mean, its good in one sense in that if you only own an xbox you get to play those games. Definitely a plus. But it is one of the factors that is holding the xbox back.

At this point, I don't think we're actually arguing any thing. A good part of the xbox's high score has come from what has turned out to be a fall line-up with well received games like PGR2 and Topspin. And no, Skies of Arcadia was a dreamcast remake, not on PS2. I'm not sure how it is "so last year" when it came out the same time as PDO which you listed (and neither one sold very well, despite great reviews.)

Anyway, we've about worn this thread out. I agree that xbox and GC are neck and neck gamewise as far as quality recently. Xbox has slowly built a quality library after what was a really crappy first year and a half. That's why I finally bought one. What I don't get is why you feel the need to make silly statements after that like "xbox and PS2 are light years ahead gamewise." Why throw PS2 into it? Don't you feel like you can defend your xbox and its own merits without always teaming it with the PS2? I guess that would be a whole new thread. . . .which two systems are better to team together PS2 and Xbox, or PS2 and GC, or Xbox and GC. I guess most people consider PS2 essential because of the high number of titles on there, and the range of titles, lots of RPG's, big hit platformers, the biggest racing franchise ever in Gran Turismo, and then the monster hits GTA series and Metal Gear.

I do feel like three consoles would be more than I could realistically play. I picked and enjoy the combo of Xbox and GC for a couple reasons. One the GC and Xbox libraries are way more different from one another than are the PS2/Xbox libraries. GC/Xbox both offer better quality hardware, and both have games that I'm much more interested in. I can't imagine missing out on Zelda, Metroid, Fable, Crimson Skies, Ninja Gaiden, Mario Kart, Panzer Dragoon, Ikaruga, Pikmin, etc.

I don't have anything against PS2, its just that I've not gotten one this long, played it a lot at my cousins house, don't want to step backwards technologically, don't want to get disk read errors after a year, the games on it I originally wanted I've gotten on PC (Vice City) or now have better versions on Xbox (Silent Hill II, Metal Gear, Fatal Frame). Anything I miss out on by not getting a PS2, I figure I can play on the backwards-compatible PS3, unless it turns out to be a cheaply made, overpriced hunk of junk.

Anyway, for a rare change, you didn't annoy the crap out of me, though I do think your final attempt to slam the GC wasn't really you being ignorant (even thought the statement was), it was just an attempt to get a rise out of me. It didn't work. It's your loss that you're missing out on so many great games on such a great system. You are right about two things you said, the system IS a bargain and it is FUN. Can't imagine why any gamer would pass that up.

Good discussion.</div>

We've said just about everything that can be said about all this.I elt I made alot of good points.And you indeed made alot of good points as well.Call it a stalemate.No winners and no losers.Just two gamers giving"System Wars" what it needs more of:Good debates with no flames.Good discussion.