Knights of the Old Republic out tomorrow [Archive]

T3KT0N

11-20-2003, 11:19 AM

Ok here it is:
I have maxed everything,on the GeForce 5900 128MBs.
On my LCD it plays at 1280x960 at 60-85 MHz refresh(digital).
Controls are good,mouse-look works,in a RPG style(limited vertical axis),movement is MOSTLY fluid(see bug below).
Faces/clothing are excellent,aliens and humans(somehow I like the human models better).
I am on Taris the first town,the textures above ground are on the bland side,but the underground levels are a bit richer.Some spaceship interiors look more like Star Trek's Enterprise(Kirk's era),than Star Wars.
The human character's mouths seem like their dentures are popping off when they talk,but that's minor,since they use eyebrow movement to convey facial expressions!!(shades of H/Life here)!!
The sound positioning is good in EAX setting,but the center channel in 5.1 setting comes and goes.
The cut scenes are precanned,with a fuzzy edging around the shapes but well detailed.
Now here is the bad:
The game has a BUG,(some foreign sites and the official Bioware site,hinted about a patch SOON),this bug makes your controlled player either unresponsive or spastically manic,in a running mode,whenever you are passing some doors or in certain open air areas,(they hinted that it is an EAX issue,I tried various sound settings and video details,but this thing comes and goes).
My biiiiig gripe is (aaach!) the RPGish combat.
It's obviously turn-based(simultaneous) and you have the option to uncheck the annoying pauses,still the game pauses when a party member is immobilised(unconcious,nobody dies here this is a Pol.correct. kid!s game folks!!
:)
Apparently those aspiring Knights/Jedis of the Old Republic,had NOT mastered the fine art of shooting /slicing because:
1)You cant move AND shoot/fight!The game enters in "moving" mode! ;)
2)You can't strafe EVER
3)You can't jump!
4)You can't dodge!
5)You can't crouch!
What you CAN do is, click on a box infront of your reticule,and "pre-order" a series of attack moves,depending on the level of your proficiency,powers and weapon.
Sometimes you miss sometimes you hit.
It's all in the dice-roll(aach! these" Dungeons-und-Dragonz-rulz" never die.)
:(
For a game that is 75% fighting,this is LAME,especially for a saber-fighting game,following the superb JK controlled games.
Yes I know it's a RPG,but it just does NOT make any sense,combat should be fluid and streamlined.This is the biggest sinker in the game.
Otherwise I am happy to note that the quests are NOT fetchit-kind,and there are many mini-games included,as well as some non-plot required "activities" like,duels gladiator-style,that really flesh out your time spent on this game.
These ARE the game's biggest strengths so far.
I believe that within a week or so I will follow-up with an in-depth review,depending on that patch and a better feel for the game.
I did not choose the fighter player(3 choices)I opted for the explorer,he seemed less dense and more interesting in abilities.

E.T.

11-20-2003, 12:32 PM

Nice mini review T3KTON, would you consider writing full review of KOTOR when finished?

T3KT0N

11-20-2003, 12:36 PM

Absolutely
A week or 10 days, will be enough to have a real feel of the game(20-+ play hours),I will need much longer to finish it,but I believe 20+ hours are enough to get any game's feel,and be able to write in deep about it.
:)

Suicides-by-Steve

11-20-2003, 02:00 PM

Uh, I just picked it up today, and I did want to comment on a couple things you mentioned. You can strafe (Z and C) in combo with moving the mouse (now it's not your typical strafe but it works), and I have fired and moved before... In the tutorial there's even a little blurb on moving and firing I thought- something about how moving or your enemies moving don't effect hit rates (which is kind of corny, especially where blasters are concerned).

You mentioned you can't dodge, but you're forgeting that like NWN, it is implied that you're ducking, dodging, and weaving. No visual ducking at first was alarming, but when I figured out that combat was essentially NWN in Star Wars clothing, I could relax a bit and let the combat resolve themselves. Jumping is another caveat of the engine... It would have been nice to have a Zelda-like RPG, but again, it's moot, everything they want you to find you will if you look hard enough. What I do find disconcerting so far is the inability to walk and freelook up and down fully(another drawback to the Aurora engine). Shame... So far so good though, I'm only into the game an hour and thirty minutes so far...

T3KT0N

11-20-2003, 04:37 PM

My jaded fps eye must have been pissed at the absence of visual strafing/dodging.
;)
Yet re: moving and fighting,the game gives me a message:
"fighting mode off",when I move right or left,I'll try to use the z x keys.
Also you can't remap the movement keys to the directional arrows,only on the "regular" kbd keys.
Yes the absence of vertical mouse look is a pain too.
Did you experience the "manic movement" attacks,when visiting the Taris open air areas?
I do believe that the above shortcomings are due to acute and terminal "consolitis",still I'm pretty interested to keep on.
The game's quests are the gem.
After Morrowind I quit the RPG theme so I'm at a loss re:NWNights.

Suicides-by-Steve

11-20-2003, 10:04 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\">Did you experience the "manic movement" attacks,when visiting the Taris open air areas?
I do believe that the above shortcomings are due to acute and terminal "consolitis",still I'm pretty interested to keep on.
The game's quests are the gem.
After Morrowind I quit the RPG theme so I'm at a loss re:NWNights.</div>

Well, I haven't found any of my guys to be doing the stormtrooper shuffle quite yet, but I will keep an eye out for it.

As for NWN compared to this game and the XBox... I would have to say that while KotOR is good for now, it's NO NWN. You can really feel the console type gameplay shining through here... In NWN when you were walking around the city it FELT like a city, large and vast, with many buildings to explore; in KotOR, in the City (planet) of Tanis, you can really feel the limitations of the XBox shining through I'm afraid.

Two blocks of above ground "shopping" do not make up a city. These two blocks are comprised of a whopping 6 or so locations such as the Droid Shop, Medical, a couple Apartments and a Military Bunker (with a Cantina and such). I sure hope this isn't indicative of what each "world" has to offer us... That would be a tad bit disappointing. I want exploration of these virtual Star Wars cities, it's not even funny.

And what's with the Star Trek-like outfits? My Scout looks like a Red-Shirt Ensign, just waiting for his next Phaser blast. Damn lucky SW uses Blasters instead of Phasers...

T3KT0N

11-21-2003, 04:21 AM

See,it's more Star Trek than Star Wars.
Rejoice though as outfits go,you can equip them with different looking armor.
The above surface is a bit bigger than it seems but it's interiors,actually it's a bunch of portals that gets you places (underground).
My guys really have path finding issues where they block the main character in tight spaces.:(
And the freezing/manic thing gets worse when foes are around.
Also I reinstate the "can't do anything" while in battle,:
That's what I meant,while clicking the battle "order" menu square(yup it's like ordering wonton soup),you can do nuthin',if you dare move the game enters movement mode.;(
Now I am absolutely persuaded,it's the last port I'l ever buy.
I'll give it until the end of the week and I'll go get me something that "moves" at least,like XIII.
The battling thing is really bad,ALSO it is impossible to DIRECTLY "give" any equipment to companions,either they have to be chosen as main to take it ,or you need to put it in a locker or something,because the non-equipped "common" items,apart from weapons,do not seem to be able to be "handed" over,yet in some instances it works,weird stuff here.

Suicides-by-Steve

11-21-2003, 05:28 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">See,it's more Star Trek than Star Wars.
Rejoice though as outfits go,you can equip them with different looking armor.
The above surface is a bit bigger than it seems but it's interiors,actually it's a bunch of portals that gets you places (underground).
My guys really have path finding issues where they block the main character in tight spaces.:(
And the freezing/manic thing gets worse when foes are around.
Also I reinstate the "can't do anything" while in battle,:
That's what I meant,while clicking the battle "order" menu square(yup it's like ordering wonton soup),you can do nuthin',if you dare move the game enters movement mode.;(
Now I am absolutely persuaded,it's the last port I'l ever buy.
I'll give it until the end of the week and I'll go get me something that "moves" at least,like XIII.
The battling thing is really bad,ALSO it is impossible to DIRECTLY "give" any equipment to companions,either they have to be chosen as main to take it ,or you need to put it in a locker or something,because the non-equipped "common" items,apart from weapons,do not seem to be able to be "handed" over,yet in some instances it works,weird stuff here.</div>

Oh, you CAN assign keys... it's under Gameplay I believe.

T3KT0N

11-21-2003, 05:46 AM

You can't assign the directional arrows to anything.
And try to "give" a med pack to the Wookie,or exchange armor with the Twilek.
Also once in the sewers, see what happens in front of the doors,if you decide to backtrack while the Twilek and the Wookie are behind you,you need to switch to the Wookie to move it out of the way,then move your character,why backtrack,you might say,well because due to the limited mouselook you just happened to "see" something you missed...........
BTW a good trick if you are injured,instead of looking for medpacks,after a fight,just go back to the hideout,don't enter it,stay outside,you get instantly healed then you can go back where you were,if you enter it you need to reconfigure the party again,and often this reconfiguring,needs to be redone,since you find yourself without a Wookie,even if you accepted/added to the party.
I just d/loaded the first beta patch,I hope this will fix the manic-frantic/stuck movement.I don't mind patches,if they work.

T3KT0N

11-21-2003, 06:06 AM

Patch seems to be working.;)
Veddy good!
The "switch-to-give item command needs to be checked.

Funny scene the Twilek wants to "give" a makeover to the Wookie!!
:)
:)
:)
Here are some "equipping" the party tips.
It is much easier to first check what is available in each crate/remains then decide who needs it ,then make this character "lead" and pick-up the items individually,instead of trying to distribute them through the common inventory.

Unfortunately while taking items you can take all or none,so if you find things that need to be divided like armor for x and pazaak cards for you,you need to go through the common inventory system.

Also the "buying" feature is a bit tricky too,because,no matter who "leads",the discussion and the buying is done through your character only,so let's say you need something for the Twilek,you "lead" with the Twilek and talk to the merchand,the game defaults to your main character,the merchand talks to you,and you are the one buying the stuff,then you need to distibute the stuff through the common inventory.

Note that all in all,I still like the game,and I'm spending a lot of time on it.

Suicides-by-Steve

11-21-2003, 08:32 AM

That's what I meant,while clicking the battle "order" menu square(yup it's like ordering wonton soup),you can do nuthin',if you dare move the game enters movement mode.;(

There is an option to Stop ALL Movement during combat... that may help a bit.

why backtrack,you might say,well because due to the limited mouselook you just happened to "see" something you missed...........

Actually, I found a good way around this annoying bug... pressing Q and E cycles through all interactive objects in the immediate vicinity. So far I'm liking the game, despite the lackluster beginning. You may have to compete against me in a review of this game... ;)

T3KT0N

11-21-2003, 09:52 AM

For starters I still enjoy the game after 5-6 hours play,now that the patch seems to be working(I have nothing against patches that work,no points lost there in my evaluation)
:)
And I also enjoy,a good argument by a worthy opposing view like yours.
But let me ask you,
The STOP everything during combat will improve game flow ?
And the menu scrolling choices during paused action will also smooth things out ?
What kind of strategic action can be undertaken that requires these pauses?
A wheel scroll can bring the few choices instantly,and there is no quick repositioning of characters during the dice roll turn-based calculations,
yes indeed,there are two different views here regarding this console port.
It boils down to tastes that's all.
I happen to like games that can move/fight and chew gum at the same time,
;)
I know that our reviews will be radically diferent,
yet noteworthy and respected by me,given the time and dedication spent playing the game,and the logical arguments for or against the features.
Meanwhile,I will keep providing,tips(not spoilers) that will overcome the eventual control and game hurdles,unless you object,of course.
:)

Suicides-by-Steve

11-21-2003, 12:03 PM

And I also enjoy,a good argument by a worthy opposing view like yours.

Oh, I never knew we were opposed... Thanks for the heads up! :)

But let me ask you,
The STOP everything during combat will improve game flow ?
And the menu scrolling choices during paused action will also smooth things out ?
What kind of strategic action can be undertaken that requires these pauses?

Well, I really think you're looking into the game too deeply. If you want a strategy game, go out and buy Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic, or Jagged Alliance 2 if you want a splash of RPGing thrown into it. Combat Mission if you want straight up combat strategy. This is a standard RPG with about as much strategy as Morrowind or Neverwinter Nights. The strategy present in this game boils down to whether or not you can take down the group of guys standing in front of you, or sneak/persuade your way around them instead. The pausing is also there to make sure your support group (healers, ranged snipers etc.) are safe from attack, while your Jedi or melee wielding soldiers can take out the enemy grunts.

A wheel scroll can bring the few choices instantly,and there is no quick repositioning of characters during the dice roll turn-based calculations,
yes indeed,there are two different views here regarding this console port.
It boils down to tastes that's all.
I happen to like games that can move/fight and chew gum at the same time,
;)

Like I said, I never knew we had radically differing views about this game... I like the game, so... I take it you don't? I think your biggest sticking point about the game so far is the lack of a comfortable control layout. I long ago got rid of turning my guys with the keys in favour of using the mouse to look and turn (I RC to bring up the Interactive cursor and LC to activate- I don't use the mouse to "drive"). Besides running and shooting is a BAD idea in most games, and real life alike. Any soldier can tell you, you never run and fire a gun at the same time (unless it suppressive fire), since you'll waste ammo that way, and not likely hit anything to boot.

I know that our reviews will be radically diferent,
yet noteworthy and respected by me,given the time and dedication spent playing the game,and the logical arguments for or against the features.
Meanwhile,I will keep providing,tips(not spoilers) that will overcome the eventual control and game hurdles,unless you object,of course.
:)

My gripes about the game stem from the obvious fact that it was geared towards a console first and foremost and it shows. A lack of an encumbrance system, small maps that need to be loaded every few hundred feet, and a lack of a mod-able SDK are the most glaring omissions. The skill sets are also lacking the depth that NWN had, and I fear this is also a direct result of the game being brought out to the XBox first, and ported over to the PC.

I have a feeling you may be hearing some of my complaints I just mentioned above concerning Deus Ex 2 in the future as well... The consoles just are simply not geared to offer an RPG that is up to the standards of RPG's that are designed for the PC straight up. In fact, I would like to see a reversal in this unfortunate trend... How about making the game for the PC first and then porting it over to the consoles? Oh, that's right, they'd basically have to start from scratch again, and dumb it down a tad...

T3KT0N

11-21-2003, 12:48 PM

I'm joking you man,
:)
I enjoy discussing and dissecting intelligent subjects.
There is no adversity here,what good is a discussion if we all agree?
Besides would I spend more than 6 hours if I thought the game sucked?
I would have buried it in public disdain.
The story is excellent and the different characters are very engaging especially the Twilek.
I played as a Twilek the Jedi Knight game and I find them the best!!

It's the combat system that ticks me off,that's all.
I find the RPG limitations regarding the action part a bit silly,since it could easily flow better,especially for a shooting/slashing hero.

We are on the same boat here,we are on the blessedly calm PC forum,among like minded enthousiasts(I think).
:)

I'm also thinking of starting an "Anti-console-porting to PCs"-game campaign.
Even taking in consideration the stellar port-success of GTA 3, :)
I believe it's(console games ported over) a rip-off vs the PC gamers,but this will go on a different thread.........................

Suicides-by-Steve

11-21-2003, 01:29 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\">I'm joking you man,
:)
I enjoy discussing and dissecting intelligent subjects.
There is no adversity here,what good is a discussion if we all agree?
Besides would I spend more than 6 hours if I thought the game sucked?
I would have buried it in public disdain.
The story is excellent and the different characters are very engaging especially the Twilek.
I played as a Twilek the Jedi Knight game and I find them the best!!

It's the combat system that ticks me off,that's all.
I find the RPG limitations regarding the action part a bit silly,since it could easily flow better,especially for a shooting/slashing hero.

We are on the same boat here,we are on the blessedly calm PC forum,among like minded enthousiasts(I think).
:)

I'm also thinking of starting an "Anti-console-porting to PCs"-game campaign.
Even taking in consideration the stellar port-success of GTA 3, :)
I believe it's(console games ported over) a rip-off vs the PC gamers,but this will go on a different thread.........................</div>

Well, there's a couple other notable limitations I have noticed while playing this "port". All the character's faces are the same! There's like maybe 10 faces that are recycled throughout all of Tarin. Pure console crap! As well, the conversation trees definitely aren't as extensive as NWN... In NWN you generally had a plethora of responses to any certain situation, in KotOR you're regulated to Yes, No, or Maybe.

As for you disliking the combat so much, I really can't sympathize with you... It's so similar to NWN that to bash this game, I would be slapping my favourite game in the mouth... however... it is extremely dumbed down, I will admit. I believe that the problem stems from (again) the lack of Feats and Skils that NWN contains... I also have to agree that having a blaster fight at point-blank range is pretty funny to witness. Oh well.

DBS

11-21-2003, 03:57 PM

I actually think I might pass on KoTR as I was not looking for a stripped down SW rpg but a full blown saga deep in the SW setting. I guess I will wait and see if the price drops later.

Still hoping DE2 doesn't follow in this trend....stupid consoles.

Look how they talked about Halo which I found totally mediocre.

T3KT0N

11-21-2003, 07:54 PM

I just finished the sewers first major "thingie" quest,haven't returned with the "engine item" yet.
:)
Let me put it in a descriptive kinda way:

After you finish this first major encounter with those 6-8 gang members/lieutenants that never die, while "in-full fight" can cartwheel and jump, but you don't,that dodge & crouch,but you stay stolidly absorbing hit after hit,please do count the reloads,
I counted 35!!

I must be getting old.;)

As far as the abilities system, it gets supplemented by some "implants" and gizmos that add to your individual talents,so it circumvents the older type of stats.Additionally you can upgrade many weapons and armor in a custom way,if you find a workbench .

Thankfully I got in touch with my "sources" tonight and got me some resources..........:)
I'm too old to reload more than 2-3 times per encounter.............;)
nomo'

:)

Suicides-by-Steve

11-21-2003, 09:58 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\">I just finished the sewers first major "thingie" quest,haven't returned with the "engine item" yet.
:)
Let me put it in a descriptive kinda way:

After you finish this first major encounter with those 6-8 gang members/lieutenants that never die, while "in-full fight" can cartwheel and jump, but you don't,that dodge & crouch,but you stay stolidly absorbing hit after hit,please do count the reloads,
I counted 35!!

I must be getting old.;)

As far as the abilities system, it gets supplemented by some "implants" and gizmos that add to your individual talents,so it circumvents the older type of stats.Additionally you can upgrade many weapons and armor in a custom way,if you find a workbench .

Thankfully I got in touch with my "sources" tonight and got me some resources..........:)
I'm too old to reload more than 2-3 times per encounter.............;)
nomo'

:)</div>

Well, I'm closing the gap between my party and yours (just got through the force field into the lower sewers), and I have to say that I have only had to reload ONCE. In the Outcast City I opened up the Quarantine cage to try to heal the sick and wounded... well, the rakghouls kind of kicked my ass... 35 reloads? Man, that's crazy!

Workbenches I have discovered long ago, though I messed up LARGE. I aquired eventually (from a Bounty Hunt) an Entrani Battle Armour suit (Def 5 Light Armour/Upgradable) but had spent the upgrade on a Rebellion Mod Light armour... The payoff between the two upgrades? The Rebellion Armour with full upgrades gives you +1 Def, +2 vs. Jedi Mind Tricks, while the Entrani armour with the SAME upgrades would grant me +2 Def. and protection vs. Cold and Fire... Basically I could have gained an extra point in defence while gaining the wicked extra fire/cold protection...

Oh well, I'll keep that in mind if I play the game again in the future. You know T3KTON, if you somewhat like this game, you should look into NWN if Swords&Sorcery is up your alley. It's "superior" in every way.

T3KT0N

11-22-2003, 04:52 AM

News for you:
The force field is a walk in the park.
I'm talking much later when you'll face the first REAL challenging battle,with the 6-8 lootenantz!!.

;

After you reach level 5-6(this game has few character levels)the combination of upgrades in weapons and armor and implants make up for the missing attributes ladder.And I found that armor upgrades alone are not as effective as in "medieval-magical" themed games,what works is acquiring new fighting moves as you progress.

Now I saw your post to Renzatic about the controls:

Since you almost ALWAYS run,try NOT to use the blighted arrows(wasd in this port)but just keep both mouse buttons pressed and use the mouse look(it's horizontal only anyway) to direct you,that way you don't need the kbd so much, which btw somehow interferes because it produces wider movement spans.

Another note:

The required keystrokes are few,so I programmed my "life-saving"-ever-so-faithfully-useable- Nostromo to the game's conf. and it works wonders.Try your controller of preference.

This peripheral will come with me to the grave,and Belkin should be sanctified in geek heaven just for this invention.

I played pazaak,I won,then lost,and lost and lost,now I'm looking for more cards.;)

As a closing underfoot note:

If and when you get fed up with the reloads,talk to me,
I got the "vaccine" if you catch mah' drift ;)
I will make the vaccine accessible with the review of the game.

T3KT0N

11-22-2003, 11:49 AM

Update.
:)
Now I'm starting to have fun.
While you must be enjoying yourself down-there....

I liberated her,BUT she is soooo ungratefully mean and uppity,that after I took her in my party,I sold her clothes off!!
Besides she keeps berating the poor Twilek girl.
Now she is playing the game in her undies.
:)

ps
dirty old man I'm not,it's just her attitude that is bothersome........
:).

T3KT0N

11-23-2003, 05:06 PM

Woot after level 6 you can cartwheel when choosing "advanced attack"
:)

Suicides-by-Steve

11-23-2003, 05:06 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\">Woot after level 6 you can cartwheel when choosing "advanced attack"
:)</div>

Level 6!? Man, I've hit Scout 9/Jedi Guardian 1 already. Of course you may mean Level 6 Jedi of course... Hmmm, I wonder what we have been doing differently if this is not the case?

Hieremias

11-24-2003, 05:56 AM

Well I was playing it on the weekend and I just rescued that Jedi chick. I'm about 7 hours into the game. I have to agree with Steve, the game is obviously a console port. I'm quite disappointed in it. The graphics are poor, you have no ability to look up and down (?!), the environments are bland and small, the interface is very poor, and the character customization is weak.

I like the story and the setting, I'm enjoying the game, but it's certainly no Morrowind. I guess the ability to REALLY explore a Star Wars universe in an open-ended RPG is something we'll still have to wait for.

I think after being spoiled with Morrowind's beautiful environment, anything less in an RPG just seems really inadequate. Maybe that's why I'm looking forward to Stalker so much.

T3KT0N

11-24-2003, 06:01 AM

Isn't she a piece of work?
The more it goes the more she upsets me.
Graphics wise,it's really like a 2 year old game.
BTW, shadows are an issue too,inside sometimes they turn bright yellow,sometimes bright red.
Do you find the weapon's sounds a bit weird,also?

ps
I have been fussing with DX2,besides after rescuing the girl I went back and became duel legend of all times,now I am level 8,then ,I decided that I will continue at a more leisurely pace,winning some pazaak games etc,and returning serums and being a do-gooder by completing some "light-side" quests ,the graphics and fighting issues,are keeping me from wanting to sink more time there,besides weekends are VERY busy in my household,(like dealing with the family;)

Hieremias

11-24-2003, 06:47 AM

I find the weapons sounds and animations are good--one of the few good technical points of the game. And I play with constant mouselook, I only hold the RMB to access the cursor. MUCH easier that way.

I don't have shadows turned on. Technically I don't meet the system requirements, since I have only a 900MHz processor. But I have 512mb RAM and 128mb V-RAM so that seems to make up for it, I can play the game at 1024x768 just fine (shadows turned off, but grass is on). It's a little bit choppy in the outdoor areas of Taris, but there's no combat out there anyway. It's smooth as butter indoors.

This game is really on rails. There's no possible way to kill or attack someone who isn't flagged as an enemy, unless you can converse with them and taunt them into attacking you. This is utterly ridiculous. I like playing as a light-side person but nevertheless this game really has dumbed things down for the console crowd. I had hoped for far more from Bioware.

Morrowind is still the King of RPGs as far as I'm concerned.

Suicides-by-Steve

11-24-2003, 07:23 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">I find the weapons sounds and animations are good--one of the few good technical points of the game. And I play with constant mouselook, I only hold the RMB to access the cursor. MUCH easier that way.

Morrowind is still the King of RPGs as far as I'm concerned.</div>

http://www.thecomputermechanics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3596

I started the above thread on another board (unfortunately you have to register to read it), but it details the concerns I have about the game (soem I have mentioned here), and others I have not (such as the lack of gore- I mean what Bioware game can you think of recently that didn't have gore in it?- and no encumbrance system). Another comparison I made was between the NWN and the KotOR core rulesets. Blah! KotOR is SO dummied down from the NWN game rules and skill/feat selection.

Re: Morrowind For single-player I will agree with you Jeremy, but for online, it's NWN all the way. It would have been really nice to have played KotOR in the same fashion that NWN is played. Morrowind though I could go on about forever. If STALKER plays like Morrowind, I'd think I'd crap my pants (uh.. can I say that word here)? LOL

T3KT0N

11-24-2003, 07:57 AM

How LAME is the battle on the Ebon Hawk?

Very LAME!

It reminds me the arcade 2 bit games.

This is MAJOR crap here!
I keep looking for the 25 cents slot!

Shame on them to put this utter dirge there.............
:(

Hieremias

11-24-2003, 08:17 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">I mean what Bioware game can you think of recently that didn't have gore in it?- and no encumbrance system).</div>

No blood in Star Wars. That isn't BioWare's decision, that's a rule that LucasArts has had for a long time. You can lop off arms with lightsabres in the Jedi Outcast games, but there is to be absolutely no blood. Raven has answered several Q&A's on that by simply saying it's a LucasArts rule. Paramount has a similar rule for Star Trek.

I don't really miss it. Frankly, a gore-fest Star Wars would seem really out of place.

<div class=\"smallfont\">Re: Morrowind For single-player I will agree with you Jeremy, but for online, it's NWN all the way. It would have been really nice to have played KotOR in the same fashion that NWN is played. Morrowind though I could go on about forever. If STALKER plays like Morrowind, I'd think I'd crap my pants (uh.. can I say that word here)? LOL</div>

Oh of course, I was talking about the single-player games. It's been well over a year since I played any multiplayer of any kind. I go through stages, where for a few months I'll be playing CounterStrike and Battlefield and Bridge Commander (really good multiplayer on that one), then I'll go for months and months with only single-player.

What I wanted was a huge open-ended Star Wars environment, comparable to Morrowind, and KotoR didn't deliver. Exploring Morrowind's environment, and then going back to the small, gameplay-on-rails formula that KotoR uses, is like having a T-bone steak one night and a TV dinner the next. I too am drooling over Stalker, I just hope there are lots of characters and quests involved.

KotoR gets good marks for a great story, great characters, pretty good controls, nice (if simple) combat, interesting quests, and an excellent use of the Star Wars universe (that's a big plus). It gets negative points for the ugly interface screens that just smack of consolitis, its extremely limited environments, poor graphics, low environmental detail, poor character customization (all classes play the same!), restricted freedom in the game, and that all-round dumbed-down feeling.

The positives do outweigh the negatives and I'm having fun with the game, but it's not everything that I'd hoped for.

Hieremias

11-24-2003, 08:22 AM

I should add one more positive: playing pazaak is damn fun! And I'm pretty good at it. You think they'll start selling Pazaak card decks? I'd love to play it as a card game with friends.

T3KT0N

11-24-2003, 08:55 AM

I have lost over 500 creds in pazaak!
Fun mini game.
At last I'm out of that silly planet.
I even got her some clothes,enough punishment.
:)

Suicides-by-Steve

11-25-2003, 07:23 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">How LAME is the battle on the Ebon Hawk?

Very LAME!

It reminds me the arcade 2 bit games.

This is MAJOR crap here!
I keep looking for the 25 cents slot!

Shame on them to put this utter dirge there.............
:(</div>

I thought the Swoop Bike race was hilarious. The Murder Investigation was worth a laugh or two. :D

T3KT0N

11-25-2003, 07:31 AM

The swoop bike was excellent.
I was referring to the rail-type shooting aboard the Ebon Hawk,and I'm afraid there will be more of this later on.
The murderous duo was a refreshing twist in quests too.
Such a fun story,such a bad port eh?

Woot!
Level 10 Jedi Consular!
And methinks that the shrew is tamed,and smitten too!
:)
BTW,I maxed out AA and vsync and soft-shadows,it is the ONLY way for my card to render proper shadows,and humans that don't look like the cone-heads.
:)
Somehow frame rates improved??
And I can discern some suspicion of textures.;)
I figure now that each level-up is an hour game-play average?

Suicides-by-Steve

11-25-2003, 10:06 AM

The Swoop-Bike race was lame...

T3KT0N

11-25-2003, 04:36 PM

Try it on Tatooine,you might like it better

Suicides-by-Steve

11-25-2003, 05:53 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\">Try it on Tatooine,you might like it better</div>

Heh, I see how it works now. Either way though, that tutorial on Tarin sucked ****!

T3KT0N

11-25-2003, 06:41 PM

Tarin was the WORST level possible.
I'm not sad it got anihilated.
As soon as I got out of that place I started seeing where this game has it's merits.
The swoops remind me of white water tubing/rafting,you hit the speed pads and accelerate.
I did remap the keys to have the same keys as in moving and it's not confusing.
BTW that Bastila is soo sanctimonious that I think I'll sell her clothes again,she keeps lecturing all the time.........
And wait till you meet her mom....

This game is saved by the story.............
:)

Suicides-by-Steve

11-25-2003, 07:57 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\">I'm not sad it got anihilated.

This game is saved by the story.............
:)</div>

You should really mellow on the spoilers (or at least give warnings), you may get some people here upset.

It IS very cinematic indeed. I see merits for some extra replayability too. Some of the talking cutscenes are a tad bit long-winded though. Luckily there's captions. Those aliens speak slower than the black kid in the wheelchair on Malcolm in the Middle.

T3KT0N

11-26-2003, 07:55 AM

Unless you know what's it is all about it makes no sense.
Still if you think those are spoilers,

I'll put big Spoiler Alerts, for the susceptible ones.
:).

Suicides-by-Steve

11-26-2003, 07:48 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\">Unless you know what's it is all about it makes no sense.
Still if you think those are spoilers,

I'll put big Spoiler Alerts, for the susceptible ones.
:).</div>

"Tarin was the WORST level possible.
I'm not sad it got anihilated."

If THAT'S not a spoiler I don't know what is... 8)

mackster

11-27-2003, 07:21 AM

Well sorry to hear there are so many issues with the game. I didn't know it used the NWN engine and while I have that game, I wouldn't say I really enjoyed it all that much. In fact it's been shelved for quite some time heh.

Maybe I'll stay away from this one.

Suicides-by-Steve

11-27-2003, 10:06 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">Well sorry to hear there are so many issues with the game. I didn't know it used the NWN engine and while I have that game, I wouldn't say I really enjoyed it all that much. In fact it's been shelved for quite some time heh.

Maybe I'll stay away from this one.</div>

Well, I don't have alot of problems with the engine per se, but the NWN OC sucked. If you find the charm in the game, it'll be online, or in one of the expansion packs. KotOR has a dummied down version of the NWN game ruleset, but with much higher production values and storyline. I think passing on it may be a mistake (especially for Star Wars junkies).

While I'm on the topic, once you aquire your Force skills, the combat picks up to intense levels at times. Being able to make an opponent Fear you, while Force Pushing back his buddy right before you hack the first guy to pieces is fun as hell to accomplish. However, I find combat and various areas (especially Scripted areas) in the game are highly susceptible to success or failure strictly by which party members you have in your party. I may be wrong, but I find that melee weapons are the key to success as well in the game...

T3KT0N

11-27-2003, 12:31 PM

Steve seriously now,
how can a discussion be conducted about a game,without some specific comments?
After all this is a GAME forum,regarding this PARTICULAR game in progress.
If somebody needs to keep the surprise intact then,he shouldn't read the posts at all.
Still though because I'm not in an antagonizing mode,I will include the :
.....WARNING,WARNING,SPOILERS INCLUDED.....
:)
Also let's just accept that posts/comments, re: a specific game WILL contain some spoiler or other,and go on from there.

ps
I'm visualizing a post re: a game in progress without ANY specifics,it would be like this:
:)
Well guys the game is excellent,when you reach ..this..,but whenever you equip ..that.., you'll see yourself fighting, ..this-one..,but unless you stopped by ..there..,to gain ..that-one.. the quest,repeats itself,and you need to retrace your trip ..there..
So now I could say I'm glad that ..that.. happened,to ...this NPC..,since the plot could unfold ..that-way..........
:)

DBS

11-27-2003, 04:50 PM

I was really surprised Gothic 2 got slammed pretty hard on Gamespy as I read alot of glowing reviews for the German version before. The more I read about KoTR it sounds like one to pick up but I will hopefully find it alittle later at a slightly better price. Some sites say it is the best rpg out.

Suicides-by-Steve

11-27-2003, 05:42 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\">I was really surprised Gothic 2 got slammed pretty hard on Gamespy as I read alot of glowing reviews for the German version before. The more I read about KoTR it sounds like one to pick up but I will hopefully find it alittle later at a slightly better price. Some sites say it is the best rpg out.</div>

There's no way that KotOR surpasses Baldur's Gate 2, not a chance. I agree, wait for the price to drop. It's a damn fine game, but not worth top dollars. It's cool though when you pull off a great Jedi Attack where you Force Push one target, Jedi Move to another, cut him down with a Power Attack, and throw your Lightsabre at the fellow just dusting himself off from your push. I wish there was replays for stuff like that.

As well, I don't know how anyone can bash Gothic 2... it's more of the same as the original.

T3KT0N

11-28-2003, 08:32 AM

NO spoilers here.
Jedi Sentinel level 14.
28 hours + game-play.:
1)Aaaach!Repeatedly,(I allow a couple of instances)"redundant" dialogue tree(answers and questions regarding future "actions",that make sense 3 game hours later).
2)Aaach!Broken sub-quests(including items that solve it, but non-active since the proper NPC needs to "allow" you to do it).
3)Aaaaach broken quests(killed the baddie,got the items,but upon "presentation" to the proper NPC nothing happens, so, redux,revisit repeat).
4)Aaach!Repetitious Fed-Exing quests sets-in.
That's it.
Bye-bye 3rd Generation DUNG-eons & DRAG-ons proudly revised rules, and turn-based roll dice.
Time to uninstall,that turkey.

Suicides-by-Steve

11-28-2003, 08:42 AM

<div class=\"smallfont\">NO spoilers here.
Jedi Sentinel level 14.
28 hours + game-play.:
1)Aaaach!Repeatedly,(I allow a couple of instances)"redundant" dialogue tree(answers and questions regarding future "actions",that make sense 3 game hours later).
2)Aaach!Broken sub-quests(including items that solve it, but non-active since the proper NPC needs to "allow" you to do it).
3)Aaaaach broken quests(killed the baddie,got the items,but upon "presentation" to the proper NPC nothing happens, so, redux,revisit repeat).
4)Aaach!Repetitious Fed-Exing quests sets-in.
That's it.
Bye-bye 3rd Generation DUNG-eons & DRAG-ons proudly revised rules, and turn-based roll dice.
Time to uninstall,that turkey.</div>

Yeah, when you first mentioned that this game had NO fed-ex quests, I was wondering where that came from since I have been doing them since the game started... However, luckily you're not required to do every one. My biggest gripe about the game would be the Inventory System, lack of gore or dismemberment, and really bad ranged combat animations.

The small environments are also a drag, but like stated previously by Jeremy, the game is wholly saved by the story. Star Wars junkies need apply. There's a lot of background info to be gleaned from this game (such as the history of the Sand People).

T3KT0N

11-28-2003, 10:04 AM

I just finished writing a "glowing" review!
I had to bite my tongue to avoid spoilers,and keep my tone civil!!
:)
Re: the Fed-Exing,of the quests,my (limited and dated) point of reference was some older RPGs,where you were point blank asked to go from place, to place to place, just to be able to read a page of a book(Morrowind did that a lot,got no beef with Morrowind mind you!!)or Wizardry 8
In the beginning the quests were interesting and varied that masked their repetitive nature,but after 18 hours KOTOR turned to a plain Fed-Ex hunt pure and simple!
I just had given up on the RPG genre because of THAT and,the turn-based thing(Fallout/Arcanum),some like it, some really can't stand it,it's just a patience threshold I guess.
And the roll-dice thingie,which CAN be done seamlessly and invisibly,(if this is what these engines require),but inexplicably the game developers can't/won't get rid of.
Well at least I gave the game more than it's fare share of time.
;)
Now time for XIII,and soon enough DX2.
:)

Suicides-by-Steve

11-28-2003, 11:49 AM

And the roll-dice thingie,which CAN be done seamlessly and invisibly,(if this is what these engines require),but inexplicably the game developers can't/won't get rid of.

I don't understand. What would you prefer?

T3KT0N

11-28-2003, 12:45 PM

Seamless mouselook,free movement and fluid action,DURING combat,the same way that it's done with any 3rd person shooter,
where damage/defense/hit points/experience are computed in the background,while the player moves/strafes/dodges.

If a player PREFERS to stop and ponder about the validity of this move over that one,they can easily use the pause button.

It does not HAVE to pause to calculate the arcane hits/defense points,or need special attention to wheel-scroll weapons and keystroke-spells,while locked on a pre-designated closest enemy target.

RPG games come in multiple CDROMs there is enough space to cram a fluid combat model.

Suicides-by-Steve

11-28-2003, 01:20 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\">Seamless mouselook,free movement and fluid action,DURING combat,the same way that it's done with any 3rd person shooter,
where damage/defense/hit points/experience are computed in the background,while the player moves/strafes/dodges.

If a player PREFERS to stop and ponder about the validity of this move over that one,they can easily use the pause button.

</div>

LOL You're essentially describing Tomb Raider then! ;) Actually you'd like to see this game closer to Gothic or more recently Morrowind or Gothic 2. Hard to do with the current Aurora Engine. It was built for the d20 system, for reasons of statistical conflict and skill resolution- great for turn-based/real-time hybrid games like NWN. The numbers really come in handy while DM'ing others through online adventures.

Maybe Star Wars has a hidden DM or an online mode...as well, I don't think that controlling 3 seperate PC's would be feasible in real-time with current technology (their Scripts are limited as is). I would personally liked them to be a bit more flexible as well though.

T3KT0N

11-28-2003, 02:18 PM

A Tomb Raider with brains on steroids, with real 3D graphics and engaging storyline and rich characters yes.
Morrowind no,since it's combat model left a lot to be desired too(a step in the right direction though).
See,when a rich franchise with an established story is tapped like Star Wars ,Star Trek,etc,the story basis is THERE already,the characters are there too,implementation is the task that's all.
Or even an improved Dungeon Siege fighting model would work as a first generation approach to these kind of updated RPGs
:)
On 4 CDs with 3 years development time,and MANY combat engines available(Jedi Knight comes to mind),it is possible to couple two engines seamlessly.
As far as controlling more than one player at a time,no.
If the pathfinding is good,then proper AI coding ( similar to a UT2k3 bot script) can do wonders.Of course jumping from player to player shouldn't be an issue.
Then we come to the numbers.
In a game-play as described on the first post, there will be NO need to consult numbers and deep thoughts,combat would be intuitive,and fluid,if his tactics work, the player progresses wounded and experienced,if it doesn't, the player dies and reloads to try a new approach.

Suicides-by-Steve

11-28-2003, 05:07 PM

<div class=\"smallfont\">A Tomb Raider with brains on steroids, with real 3D graphics and engaging storyline and rich characters yes.
Morrowind no,since it's combat model left a lot to be desired too(a step in the right direction though).
See,when a rich franchise with an established story is tapped like Star Wars ,Star Trek,etc,the story basis is THERE already,the characters are there too,implementation is the task that's all.
Or even an improved Dungeon Siege fighting model would work as a first generation approach to these kind of updated RPGs
:)
On 4 CDs with 3 years development time,and MANY combat engines available(Jedi Knight comes to mind),it is possible to couple two engines seamlessly.
As far as controlling more than one player at a time,no.
If the pathfinding is good,then proper AI coding ( similar to a UT2k3 bot script) can do wonders.Of course jumping from player to player shouldn't be an issue.
Then we come to the numbers.
In a game-play as described on the first post, there will be NO need to consult numbers and deep thoughts,combat would be intuitive,and fluid,if his tactics work, the player progresses wounded and experienced,if it doesn't, the player dies and reloads to try a new approach.</div>

Hmm, I think you're being too unforgiving (or simply wanting too much). There's no way you could fight like you do in KotOR in real-time. The controlling interface is all wrong, it's too unforgiving, and would result in many controller based errors. Jedi Knights doesn't take into account factors such as upgrades on weapons, or individual feats, based around a d20 stat system. It's simply a Platform game. Again, in order to compute the various stats and how they factor in this RPG, it's really the only way to go, while still retaining an NPC party and Party Combat. But, if you think it'll work, that's cool. If you find a game like you're describing, leave a post behind here... assuming the site is still around. Dungeon Siege wouldn't be too bad to use either... Then again neither would the Infinity engine be bad either.

T3KT0N

11-28-2003, 06:32 PM

Off the cuff without looking deeply into each engine's capabilities let me just state what could be feasible:
Cold stat systems can be substituted by:
(depending on the games progress)
1)advancing/diminishing aiming accuracy of weapons.
2)diminishing hit /damage points on main character
3)Selectively enabling "non-access" script areas
4)Access to specificall script enabling acquired and or combined "trigger" items.
5)NPC character behavior based on progress "triggers"
If these factors are implemented gradually you got already the basis of a stats system,magical system,levelling up and "portal" enabling,even weapons customisations /repairs,maybe not as rigid as number crunching which anyway leads to wooden game-play,but flexible enough to enhance a fluid game -play.

ALL the above are taken from different games as examples,and unbelivably enough many from 3d shooters or even newer FPS.

Game hybridization is not a novelty,but a trend,and eventually System Shock/ Deus Ex type of RPGs will be more and more evident.
As a diametrically opposed example look at Savage a one CDRom experiment that combines RTS an 3D 3rd person shooter with a rudimentary simplified leveling tree(not perfect or even succesful yet but it points clearly to a refreshing trend).

Remember I did not spend time dissecting EACH engine's capabilities,I am purely descriptive here,also the stats rules and engines were addressing a low capacity processing system(early PCs and platforms),today's PCs combining processing power at the CPU and GPU level can deliver a very sophisticated scripting system that could potentially render stats based games obsolete.

I am confident that in the next 3-5 years games will break niches and rigid genres tending to a closer convergence.

The reason that I say this, is gleaned by a cross genre exposure that points to this direction.

The end resulting "GAME"-experience will be a truly immersing "happening"(70s term sorry) UNIQUE to the PC,unrivalled by any thumb-twitching console controller game pads,that seems to be 10 years down the path.

:)

We could debate the subject for ever since these ideas/visions/wishful thinking, are based on pure conjecture,yet the patterns are there.
And these are just my simple personal opinions.

Suicides-by-Steve

11-28-2003, 08:43 PM

We could debate the subject for ever since these ideas/visions/wishful thinking, are based on pure conjecture,yet the patterns are there.
And these are just my simple personal opinions.

Well, it's probably not only your own idea, but others as well. The technology is striving to be as realistic as possible, but it definitely ain't there yet.

DBS

11-29-2003, 10:48 AM

I have hopes that our pc games come to that but I see a trend to make short and sweet games now to cut production costs and dev time to get to market. Also cross platform development to capitalize on the market which usually means we get products that are generally not optimised or missing key pc features we are used to having. I know there are some great ports as I own Vice City and it shines on the pc but still this trend worries me. They keep pushing the requirements on the newer pc games but are games smarter in your opinion? As for rpgs I am hoping we soon get a living breathing world to live in and do as we please. A tall order indeed but I want a world where I can live as a theif or work to become the magistrate etc. Own a brothel or be a priest and have the largest flock....

T3KT0N

11-29-2003, 12:18 PM

Yes there are certain games that are shorter.
BUT the best of these short games,are fine in the length that is presented,since it would make them repetitiously,redundant,if "lengthening" tricks were applied.
I do not advocate that games should be shorter,all I state is, that most of these short games, fulfill their design purposes at the length that they are presented.

Whether gamers feel that they are getting their money's worth or not ,is a DIFFERENT issue,but this is why reviews are for:
to inform gamers about what kind of expectations can be met for their gaming dollar.

Yes a good RPG/world has it's fun and merits,but there are also other kind of games that offer as much "immersion" as a good RPG,requiring a shorter time involvement,to fit everyone's availability and tastes.

Without being polarized ,checking on the newer crop of games one can easily see that,there are Strategy and RPG elements in MANY of the newer crop of games,this is the trend I was talking about, and this is what really will ultimately differentiate the PC games from their console counterparts since, such a degree of sophistication and processing power requirements can never be met by a console.