Gothic 4 -- Now with 97% less Gothic?

[Intangir]

GameSpot Preview: Arcania: A Gothic Tale First Look (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/gothic4/news.html?sid=6191191&mode=previews)

From the first two paragraphs:

The Gothic franchise has forever been defined by free-roaming open-world gameplay, sweeping story and settings, and bugs. Lots of bugs. Publisher DreamCatcher freely admits that Gothic 3 was a great game in theory but an unplayable mess in execution. So former developer Piranha Bytes is gone, replaced by Spellbound Entertainment in the hope that fans of the epic role-playing game genre will eventually see Gothic in the same bright light as Oblivion. Spellbound's next project is Arcania: A Gothic Tale.

The name change serves two purposes. First, it hints at a world rich in magic and fantasy. Second, and completely from a marketing perspective, it helps give the Gothic franchise a fresh start in North America, where it has failed to gain significant popularity. And gaining popularity in the good old US-of-A is goal one for DreamCatcher. The team invested months of research into the differences between European and American gaming preferences, so much so that there will be two different color palettes for Arcania: North American (bright and beautiful) and European (muted and gritty). Truth be told, we didn't notice much of a difference when DreamCatcher stopped by our office to show off a very early build of Arcania, but you have to admire the attention to detail.
Personally, I always thought the deal breaker with the Gothic series were all the bugs, lack of polish, performance issues, and even the difficulty (Gothic 2). So... to counter that they're cheering up the palette (instead of using that time to fix potential issues?) and changing the name. Naturally, the new name sounds worse to me but hell I played through Divine Divinity and enjoyed it without ever having to think twice about the poor title. But I'm still left wondering if cheering up the palette and changing the name is really going to address or divert attention to--in my mind--Gothic's more pressing issues? And changing developers after Piranha Bytes created all three Gothic games?

Were I a fan of the Gothic series, I'd be pretty well put-off by this news. But as a non-fan I'd think that shaking things up would be good for me, and it might even iron out some of the issues I've had with the series. However, it's now starting to sound like the cost of that might be taking away what good Gothic had going for it in the first place and turning it into some derivative fantasy RPG modeled after Oblivion.

As always I'll reserve my final judgment until I've went a few rounds with the game, but I thought I'd post this news anyway to see what the actual Gothic fans thought about it.

In related news, Piranha Bytes is working on a new game (http://www.worldofpiranha.com/?section=newsdetail&id=28):

[Games Convention] Further Details About RPB

Day 2 at the Leipzig Games Convention had a presentation for the international press where Mike Hoge (Lead Game Designer), Björn Pankratz (Lead Programmer) and Kai Rosenkranz (Composer, Public Relations) gave away further details about the new roleplaying game developed by Piranha Bytes.

As stated yesterday, the game is set on a volcanic and «forbidden» island. All character animations will be made anew, the game will have dungeons, traps, secret doorways and riddles. The developers are known for maintaining close contact to their fanbase and took up some suggestions like increasing the effectiveness of certain weapons when fighting particular foes, like a hammer for golems. Instead of having a myriad of items in virtually indistinguishable variations, the game will concentrate on fewer but clearly recognisable weapons, armour sets and items.

The new game is again made for a single player and the PC. At the moment no other platform is in development. Whether the game will be made for DirectX9 oder DirectX10 is still undecided. The graphics engine will consist of some licensed components but most of it is being developed by Piranha Bytes itself.

[Aku]

Well as a fan of the first two Gothics, the bugs weren't a major issue for me. They both played really well. But I know about all the complaints about Gothic 3. I was still going to play it when I saw it for just $14 at Gamestop, but I'm full-up right now in rpg's with NWN2 and Oblivion. The title of the fourth gives the impression that it isn't a continuation of the same story, just set in the same world. But I'm just speculating.

[BaneNWN]

ya to bad they dont fix the freakin bugs in gothic 3 before they make a gothic 4.I wont be buying it gothic 3 was left unfinished they need to fix that first what a bunch of crap

[Mochan]

Dream Catcher is one of those publishers taht shouldn't be wondering why they are getting panned for quality -- it's like they don't even test the games before releasing them. There was so much furor over the Painkiller Gold relese it's amazing they didn't get a class action suit filed against them, what with all the bugs, inability to play it, missing CD keys, etc. Let's not even talk about Dungeon Lords.

One thing to note is that I support developers, not publishers. Spellbound Entertainment? Who's to say they can create a Gothic game of the same quality as Piranha Bites? It's just as well the game is now Arcania and not Gothic, it's a different team working it. I could care less how Dreamcatcher fits in to the picture, the only thing they are responsible for is forcing the game to ship with tons of bugs, which they have done an awesome job of.

Gotta agree with you here, a palette and name change isn't going to do anything unless you're trying to capture the 10-year old crowd that likes Spyro the Dragon. Shafting the original developer that was responsible for the feel and gameplay of the original isn't exactly a fix either unless the new developer is more proven -- which it is not.

Getting Spellbound - a developer known for its strategy games and not its RPGs, is also a very questionable move. I will probably support PB's new game instead but I will pick this one up anyway.

Let's be honest here, what they're doing here is brightening the color palette to make it look more like Oblivion -- a game that was too bright in comparison. A shameful copycat move and something you'd expect from a third-rate publisher like Dreamcatcher. Some of the other mechanics noted sound like straight plagiarism from Oblivion. Power charging attacks? Whatever.



<I>Aku
The title of the fourth gives the impression that it isn't a continuation of the same story, just set in the same world. But I'm just speculating.</i>

I don't want to give out any spoilers but suffice to say Gothic 3 ends the Gothic Saga, the 4th Game will definitely not be a continuation.

Here it seems that in Gothic 4 the hero is now the king. Well I guess it depends on how you end the game. When I finished Gothic 3 I... did something else. :) Which again is the beauty of Gothic 3 it is the true spiritual successor of Fallout 2.

Technically I guess it's a continuation of the Gothic Saga but it's a new story altogether now unlike Gothic 1-3 which were one story.

[G07H1C]

A huge Gothic fan!!! Granted, 3 was released early & had major bugs. I put it up for 3-4 months waited for the patches, and after just finishing recently, it is now the best game I have played in years!
On a worse note, like some of you, I believe this series is now done, it probably is a good thing they changed the name. They should take a good series, make it bug free, add some detail to the graphics, put your story telling to work - and finish what Gothic started!


Just finished: Gothic 3, Oblivion, NWN2, Witcher, & Fallout 2 again!


Running:
AMD 5000+ Dual core
6GB DDR2 800 RAM
10,000 rpm 120GB HD
(2) Nvidia 8600 GT 512MB Graphics (SLI)
24" widescreen LCD monitor

[Mochan]

I agree with you there Gothic, like I said in another thread to the incredulity of many here, Gothic 3 was the best RPG I'd played since I don't remember. Don't let the fact that it has a ton of bugs fool you; it is way better than Oblivion in all the things that count for an RPG.

And I would totally play Gothic 3 all over again, beacuse this is one of those games that can turn out completely differently on a replay depending on what you do.

Next up my must play list for PC is Jagged Alliance 3 and White Gold. I hope those two games come out soon. In the meantime STALKER Clear Skies will probably come out first, yet another game I really want!

I may a well try out Mass Effect though while I am here and see what the hoopla is about.

[G07H1C]

I may be grasping here, but what about "Rise of the Argonauts" or "Space Siege", has either got a prayer, will there be enough RPG elements.
I like the concept of JA3, looks good - when is the release date? I am looking up White Gold now, not familiar with this one.
Mass Effect has the hype - this is true!

[Mochan]

Space Siege let's not fool ourselves this is going to be a hack and slash RPG so it's really not even the same kind of game as Gothic and the rest. I will probably play it anyway (especially with friends) because I love these kinds of games too but the experience will be different from a sprawling singleplayer experience like Gothic.

Rise of the Argonauts though is a totally different matter and looks like it could very well shape up to be a very good RPG and action game. It remains to be seen but yeah this is also a game I should have on my list of games to get.

Jagged Alliance has missed a few release dates already (was supposed to ship fall of 2007) so don't hold your breath. Have you ever played the previous games in the series, or Silent Storm? You should know what to expect but believe me unless F3/Akella does an epic fail roll JA3 should be a killer game (as long as you like turn-based squad combat)

White Gold is the spiritual sequel to Boiling Point, a mostly underrated (but deservedly so) game in 2005 or 2006 I think which is basically Grand Theft Auto melded with an FPS. Unfortunately it was way too buggy and even die hard fans had trouble really sticking with the game.

If White Gold can even just iron out all the bugs that screwed the Boiling Point experience, it will already be a winner. If all the enhancements Deep Shadows is planning makes it in, then it will be one of the great games of this year (or whatever year it manages to come out).

Mass Effect? Will play it when I get it. I'm actually moving right now and I am posting this while taking a break from packing, so I will have to find time to play it later.

[G07H1C]

I definitely have some research to do. As far as squad turn based combat - don't laugh, but I actually played X-Com UFO defense to its dismal end. I seriously have no problem with turned based combat games.
Mass Effect sounds like it may be for real I guess. These games should keep me busy until FO3.

[Mochan]

Laugh? I played UFO Enemy Unknown for YEARS I must have played that thing at least a hundred times and I even hacked the weapons to increase their damage to 255, it was hella fun shooting tunnels through mountains with laser pistols! There is nothing to laugh about comrade!

[G07H1C]

Oh, I hear ya! Now, I'm gonna make you laugh even harder......about a year ago, I picked up a box (UFO Extra Terrestrials), I thought........bet this is the continuation of the series somehow, it was for $19.95, so I said wth. Got it home, played about 2 hours before I realized it was the same damn game with better graphics!!! The kicker you ask - I beat that one too!!!

[Mochan]

Wait wait wait wait

Did you just say XCOM 1 WITH BETTER GRAPHICS??!! SIGN ME UP

The new UFO Trilogy was pretty crappy (UFO Afterlight and stuff -- basically realtime tactical games with a pause button ala Baldur's Gate) but if there is something like the original but updated with better graphics then I WANT.

[Mochan]

I went over to its official site. I think I remember this game now. Wasn't this the game that was a remake of the original UFO created by a bunch of modders using the Quake 2 engine? It took so long I forgot all about it.

Anyway I will go grab this game I just re-finished Silent Storm and am still in a tactical combat RPG kind of mood.

[G07H1C]

I have been out for a couple of days. Yes, that is the game. In between role playing games, I would play some RTS games or games like "XComm UFO defense", then "Terror from the Deep", and finally "Apocolypse". I never played "Afterlife". For some odd reason I liked UFO Defense, so when I bought this new game, I wasn't upset that it was the same line with better graphics. I came across a bug or two, while throwing grenades & stepping thru the floor on occasion. I just thought it was funny because there wasn't much to the original game, and I liked it anyway!

[Mochan]

UFO Defense was good, and lots of great fun was had at the hands of mauling sectoids, snakemen, floaters et al.

Terror from the Deep was great in that it siginficantly ramped the difficulty of the original but at the expense of realllly bad art design and too much reliance on copy-catting the original; practically nothing new was introduced in this game except for new (uglier) graphics, bigger levels and the amphibious nature of combat -- which was not a major difference.

Apocalypse was a total redesign and was actually pretty good, although it lost some of the "magic" of the original but despite that was still the best UFO sequel. It also introduced a real time mode which I just about never used but modernized the combat to have real-time and turn-based modes just like Jagged Alliance, which was a welcome evolution. Its biggest drawback I guess was the crappy "pink pastel" mood evoked by the setting, which was lightyears away from the atmospheric ufo-hunting we got from UFO Defense.

The Altair UFO trilogy (Aftermath, Aftershock and Afterlight) were pure crap, and were actually real-time games with a pause button rather than the turn-based combat we grew to love from XCom and Jagged Alliance. This wouldn't be all that bad were the rest of the games not so bland and poorly-made as well.

The original game maybe antiquated by today's standards but it still had a genius design with the perfect mix of strategy, tactics, resource management, action and suspense. I am not surprised you ended up liking the new game anyway.

[G07H1C]

I seriously can't believe there were others who played and liked the game, I thought it was just me, no one ever really talked about it much, it made no ones top 10 list, no one really cared about what was coming after Apocolypse!
Sometimes those are good to back and play when we have a break in the real action! I mean that in a positive RPG way!!!

[Mochan]

Well a lot of people wrote UFO off with the crappy Aftermath games. Apocalypse was okay but was not a hit by any means. People were still expecting something from the license but the Aftermath games probably gave the fandom a kick in the nuts, bent them over and sodomized their asses.

It didn't help that Jagged Alliance 2 had won over the faithful, and at the time the Aftermath games came out Silent Storm was the new kid on the block, and deservedly so. People have all but forgotten X-Com and that's a crying shame. Even if this new Extraterrestrial game is nothing more than a slavish copy of the original, that's fine by me until we can get a real spiritual sequel. Until then Jagged Alliance 3 will be our savior.

[Aku]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WESMcX29lc0

[Mochan]

That is ****ing hilarious the development team literally copied every single thing about the original UFO! They have no shame and will forever be a 3rd rate developer. It's all well and good we have a UFO game that is updated to run on today's systems but please we could have done without the archaic design elements like 100% turn-based gameplay!

[G07H1C]

I told you, they really didn't change much of anything, just better graphics!!! That's what was so funny - and I still put another 40-50 hours into it, even knowing the exact outcome!

[Mochan]

And yeah, the funny thing is, I think I will be doing the exact same thing. :)

[G07H1C]

I hear ya!
I believe those type of games are ideal in between the 100 hour RPG's. I like some of those RTS games too at times.
I'm gonna slightly give away some age here, I purchased the original.........................Might & Magic game, and didn't stop playing them until Might & Magic 8 I believe! Then started in on the Hero's of M&M, and I have all of those! I'll play just about anything in between my RPG ventures!

[Mochan]

Although RPG is my "home" genre, I play pretty much everything under the sun. But I only play the "good" games if a game is bad even if it's an RPG it will get my ire.

My favored genres though are clearly RPGs (both Western and JPRG variety) and FPS.

[G07H1C]

I'm with ya! Since I purchase all my games, I feel like I have to get some play out of each, even the bad ones to an extent! But when enough is enough, I'll kick it across the house!
RPG for life - I understand JRPG, and CRPG, and dungeon crawlers, but what is western?

[Mochan]

Western RPGs are RPGs made in the US or Europe... basically everything that isn't a JRPG. (yes I know there are some RPGs that aren't Western or JRPGs like Prince of Qin or Anito but generally speaking RPGs are either Western or JRPG.

Might and Magic, Wizardry, Gothic, Oblivion, Mass Effect, Fallout, etc. these are all Western RPGs. The stylistic aesthetics and general design philosophy for the two RPGs are vastly different and should be to any fan, thus the distinction between the two.

In fact, the distinction today is more about the style rather than where the game came from. For instance, Americans made some JRPGs like Septerra Core and Shadow Madness (and what a horrid JRPG that was!)

[G07H1C]

That answers the question nicely, I'm definitely a western fan!

What ever happened to the M & M franchise? They were just moving right along, then something happened??? New game engine, or to many changes at once? After 7, it seemed that 8 & 9 were just not playable!

[Aku]

Well, Might and Magic Dark Messiah is the latest incarnation of the series. More of an action rpg. I play M&M 6-8. M&M 6 was my favorite, a huge game with great areas to explore and tons of combat. One of my favorite rpg's ever. I liked 7 for the playing card mini game that I would play for hours at a time. I also liked the light vs. dark paths. It was very cool. I finished 8 but it was kind of forgettable compared to the others.

[G07H1C]

Shocked again, you just don't hear about people playing those games! 6 was my fav, you are absolutely correct, no guidelines for the most part, tons of killing, RPG levels were great, and the gameplay was well done! Something changed in 7, and I didn't think that 8 was all that great! 9 - I started, but I could see no real changes from 8, so I just dropped it.

I had a lot of fun hours with those games nonetheless!

[Mochan]

Might and Magic went downhill after 6. I played MM3-6 and I liked the 4-6 trilogy, but in 7 I did not like the way M&M adapted to 3D and CD-ROMs. This was the dark age of PC Gaming and I wish I could obliterate it from history.

When MM8 came along it was worse and nobody cared for the series anymore. Incidentally around this time HOMM came out and people got more into that instead of the core series. It's a shame the core M&M games were classics of the Wizardry style dungeon hack games and I loved them a lot. MM3 in particular blew me away with its voice over intro, one of the first of its kind and it got that voice over using PC Speaker!

Today Might and Magic is all but forgotten, the only thing people know is Heroes of Might and Magic and Dark Messiah.

[G07H1C]

I just went down ole memory lane! They were good while they lasted!
I did read where 3do & New World Computing filed bankruptcy, it is a shame.

Did anyone like or play FO Tactics? It was ok I guess, but I am more curious why they even bothered to make it, why not stick with what got them there, maybe an expansion to FO2 or something, the missions didn't do a whole lot for me, but I finished it!

[Mochan]

Fallout Tactics was a mess. I think they made it to cash in on the Jagged Alliance/X-Com craze that was going on (not really sure -- Tactics games weren't exactly lighting up gamer's imaginations at this time) but I agree this game did not need to happen, why not just make a real Fallout 3? It didn't make sense. It's like they didn't have a creative team that had the juices to work out a full plot and scenarios, and instead just wanted to do a simple level-by-level mission design to cash in on a popular license.

Worse, they screwed up some canonical world story elements, and the missions had a very manufactured "herding" feel (i.e. -- it felt linear with segments chopped up to be entered sequentially as opposed to getting one big stage)

The feel of the game was wrong as well we didn't get any of the campy early 1900's feel that made Fallout standout (and which Bioshock copied) instead we got the college frat boy rocker feel.

Truly a mediocre game that only got a look because of the Fallout license.

[Aku]

I feel a big rebuttal from Bane coming, as he is a big FO Tactics fanboy. I never played it, but I remember reading the things they screwed up in the Fallout canon....kind of appalling.

[G07H1C]

Now that you mention it, there were a few of those tactical, turn based, squad games out at the time, they most likely were trying to cash in - the play itself was ok, but linear it was, if you got off the beaten path, it was a mess.

Sorry Bane - but another true sequel should have been made instead! My opinion only, & I have to say, the only reason I bought the game, was because "Fallout" was on the cover!