Insider explains RROD.

[theWacoKid]

Since MS is so unwilling to explain their dreadful failure rate, an insider has spilled the beans.

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8739&Itemid=53

‘Insider’ Explains 360 Red Rings, 30% Failure?

By Tom Ivan Print | Send to a friend | Email the editor

BLOG - The blogger who broke the news of the Bungie/Microsoft split has posted an interview, supposedly with a Microsoft insider who says that they worked on the Xbox 360 project for many years, about the console's infamous ‘Red Ring of Death’ faults.
The insider claims to know the reasons behind the ‘Red Ring of Death’ (RROD) faults that have plagued Microsoft’s next-gen console, and led to the platform holder extending the console’s warranty period by two years and putting aside $1.05 billion to $1.15 billion for anticipated costs associated with repairing Xbox 360s. In a follow-up post the insider says they worked on the Xbox 360 project for many years and that they've decided to speak out on the subject in a bid to stand up for customers.

“RROD is caused by anything that fails in the ‘digital backbone’ on the mother board. Also known as a core digital error. CPU, GPU, memory, etc. Bad parts, incompatible parts (timing problems) bad manufacturing process (like solder joints), misapplied heat sinks or thermal interface material, missing parts, broken parts, parts of the wrong value, missed test coverage. Any one or more, on any chip, or many other discrete components, would cause this,” says the insider.

“And many of the failures were obviously infant mortality, where they work when they leave the factory and fail early in use. The main design flaw was the excessive heat on the GPU warping the mother board around it. This would stress the solder joints on the GPU and any bad joints would then fail in early life. There are also other significantly high failure rates in other areas, like the DVD.”

The insider claims that the Xbox 360 failure rate is roughly 30 percent, and that Microsoft is expecting around 1 million failures this quarter, most of those Xenons [the first Xbox 360 mother board]. “Some of those are repeat failures. Life expectancy is all over the map because the design has very little margin for most of the important parameters. That means it's not a fault tolerant design… There's no way to tell when yours might die. But the cooler you can keep it, the longer it will probably last. So stand it up, keep it in free air, etc.”

The insider goes on to add that Microsoft has “under resourced that product unit in all engineering areas since the very beginning. Especially in engineering support functions like test, quality, manufacturing, and supplier management,” and that, in its desperation to prevail over Sony this generation, “the 360 was rushed to market when all indications were that it had serious flaws”.

Microsoft UK declined to comment on the report when contacted by Next-Gen.

In other words, sports fans, what I've been telling people on this board all along, a sh#$ product, substandard parts and substandard assembly, by a corporation who treats its customers like drug addicts who'll take any sh#$ just to get their halo fix.

Yeah, get that piece of crap out there, boyz, who cares if if works, we gotta beat sony to market. About frickin time, somebody came forward, expect massive denials or no comment from MS.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

GPU overheats.

We knew that

Motherboard is cheap.

We knew that.

30% failure rate.

We knew that.

Seriously what has the insider contributed that wasn't already know? What would be more interesting is if MS is still using the same motherboard. Or wheather or not the manufacturing procedures has been change.

The hardware was Sh!t for a while that's been established I'm more interested what MS is doing going forward.

And if MS treats consumers like druggies who need a Halo fix. What does Sony treat there customers lilke. Cultist Zealots who'll buy the thing without games?

[ilnadmy]

I think the whole "PS3 ain't got no games" argument is outdated, whereas the 360's RROD is still very much a pressing issue.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

The comment I made about the PS3 was referring to a comment one of Sony's exec's made. Waco is saying how MS treats there customers so I was just using that for comparitive sake.

The PS3 games aren't as good is more than valid though.

[silversparrow]

This snippet from the full interview (http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/digitaljoystick/archives/129866.asp) doesn't instill confidence that they will produce a RROD-proof SKU anytime soon:

Q: Do you think that the "Falcon" Xbox 360 design is the final Xbox 360 hardware iteration or will they come out with a redesigned Xbox 360?
They will come out with new hardware at least once a year until they retire this design. That's the console financial model. Keep the features and functionality the same, reduce cost and price, and improve quality if needed. The 360 roadmap always called for SI die shrink and integration, since that's where most of the cost is. Right now they are working to get the GPU and CPU on the same BGA package for the next mobo. Could lower cost, heat, number of heat sinks, mother board size (maybe squeeze the PS inside too), etc. Too bad that they screwed up and forgot to retain the JTAG IEEE 1149 test functionality, at least what little they had. Now it will be almost impossible for them to tell if that chip is bad if the unit won't boot in the factory. So they will have to trouble shoot by replacing the most expensive part in the system blindly. They keep repeating bad decisions, and everyone is afraid to push issues considered to be bad news.

Basically what he's saying is that their hardware testing procedure is screwed up. That's going to leave a big question mark on the Jasper chipset's reliability when it comes out next year.

[Tappy_Tibbons]

PS3 doesn't have any games in the same league as Bioshock or Halo 3...nothing with any soul or anything that makes it stick out compared to the 360.

Oh, and btw, I went through 4 PS2s...still on my first 360 for nearly a year with no issues.

[T.Tashi]

MS has no reason or incentive to fix the problems because it hasn't effected sales in any great number. U.S. consumers will typically put up with a shoddy product if it's popular enough. They'll ride it out another couple years til the next console.

[Fivespot]

still on my first 360 for nearly a year with no issues.

I knocked on wood for you Tappy.

[theWacoKid]

GPU overheats.

We knew that

Motherboard is cheap.

We knew that.

30% failure rate.

We knew that.

Seriously what has the insider contributed that wasn't already know? What would be more interesting is if MS is still using the same motherboard. Or wheather or not the manufacturing procedures has been change.

The hardware was Sh!t for a while that's been established I'm more interested what MS is doing going forward.

And if MS treats consumers like druggies who need a Halo fix. What does Sony treat there customers lilke. Cultist Zealots who'll buy the thing without games?

What this insider confirmed, oh, recent owner of a no games ps3, lol, is that MS has virtually no concern for things such as quality control or consumer peace of mind. Bad parts, missing parts, substandard assembly, substandard Q&A and testing, knowingly releasing a product with a laundry list of problems with no concern how it would affect customers. If people hadn't started screaming bloody murder, the 360 warranty would still be only 90 days.

So, yeah, chump, you just keep feeding these bozos your hard earned money for their crap hardware and their so called superior xbox live service, you know, the one that runs like ass right now. And MS will compensate you with a crappy xbox live arcade game of their choice, that nobody wants.

The new 360's don't even come in with pack in games anymore, nice one, MS. Silver subscribers now have to wait a week to try out the latest demo, because if you don't cough the $50 cover charge, you're basically a second class citizen. Oh, yeah, great effin company, sold 300k of those hd dvd add ons that are now frigging paperweights.

[theWacoKid]

This snippet from the full interview (http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/digitaljoystick/archives/129866.asp) doesn't instill confidence that they will produce a RROD-proof SKU anytime soon:



Basically what he's saying is that their hardware testing procedure is screwed up. That's going to leave a big question mark on the Jasper chipset's reliability when it comes out next year.

Yeah, the full interview has some absolutely brutal stuff.

Manufacturing processes at all levels of suppliers were immature and not in control. Initial end to end yields were in the mid 30%. Low yields always indicate serious design and manufacturing defects. Management chose to continue to ship anyways, and keep the lines running while trying to solve problems and bring the yields up. Whenever something failed and there was a question about whether the test result was false, they would remove that test, retest and ship, or see if the unit would boot a game and run briefly and then ship. 360 is too complex of a machine to get away with that.

In the end I think it was fear of failure, ambition to beat Sony, and the arrogance that they could figure anything out, that led to the decision to keep shipping. That management team had made some pretty bad decisions in the past and had never had to pay a proportional consequence. I'm sure they thought that somehow they would figure it out and everything would end up ok. Plus, they tend to make big decisions like that in terms of dollars. They would rationalize that if the first few million boxes had a high failure rate, a few 10's of millions of dollars would cover it. And contrasting that cost with a big lead on Sony, would pay it in a heartbeat. They weren't even thinking about Nintendo.

What an effin outfit. Hey, Fred, these 360's are no good, we got to scrap em, they're failing our Q&A tests.

Fred: Stick a game in, see if it boots, if it does, ship it.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

What this insider confirmed, oh, recent owner of a no games ps3, lol, is that MS has virtually no concern for things such as quality control or consumer peace of mind. Bad parts, missing parts, substandard assembly, substandard Q&A and testing, knowingly releasing a product with a laundry list of problems with no concern how it would affect customers. If people hadn't started screaming bloody murder, the 360 warranty would still be only 90 days.

So, yeah, chump, you just keep feeding these bozos your hard earned money for their crap hardware and their so called superior xbox live service, you know, the one that runs like ass right now. And MS will compensate you with a crappy xbox live arcade game of their choice, that nobody wants.

The new 360's don't even come in with pack in games anymore, nice one, MS. Silver subscribers now have to wait a week to try out the latest demo, because if you don't cough the $50 cover charge, you're basically a second class citizen. Oh, yeah, great effin company, sold 300k of those hd dvd add ons that are now frigging paperweights.


You didn't address my points.

[Mochan]

Strictly speaking MS' gambit did pay off. Arguably the main reason the XBox 360 is doing so well right now is because of the year headstart it got on the PS3. It's what gave developers the option to work on the 360 for 1 year in advance, getting more games on the system and getting systems installed in the userbase, making it easier to entice developers with exlcusivity deals.

But who pays for it? MS pays a billion but MS has consistently shown that it doesn't really care if it pisses money down the drain, so the ones who really suffer in this equation are the consumers who will have their 360 die on them at the most inopportune time to have it shifted out in a coffin (if you're in the US).

[T.Tashi]

Strictly speaking MS' gambit did pay off. Arguably the main reason the XBox 360 is doing so well right now is because of the year headstart it got on the PS3. It's what gave developers the option to work on the 360 for 1 year in advance, getting more games on the system and getting systems installed in the userbase, making it easier to entice developers with exlcusivity deals.

But who pays for it? MS pays a billion but MS has consistently shown that it doesn't really care if it pisses money down the drain, so the ones who really suffer in this equation are the consumers who will have their 360 die on them at the most inopportune time to have it shifted out in a coffin (if you're in the US).

True. MS could give 2 sh!ts about gaming though the 360 team feels differently I'm sure. But in the battle against Sony MS has the funds to piss billion of dollars away in the attempt to establish itself outside the PC realm. Nintendo's not vying for the living room they are still all about the games so Nintendo's off the chart sales probably means very little, as long as Nintendo doesn't adopt a corporate monopoly business model of dominance and expand the capabilities of their next console.

[theWacoKid]

You didn't address my points.

You don't have any points to address.

[slade]

You didn't address my points.

What point did you have other then shilling for MS.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

I think the whole "PS3 ain't got no games" argument is outdated, whereas the 360's RROD is still very much a pressing issue.

Trust me, the PS3 lack of games is still an issue! I have zip to play. Unless I want to go play games like HS or Warhawk that i'm not that interested in or I should say that aren't better than a lot of 360 exclusives I have yet to play. For example, I haven't played Crackdown yet, so why 'force' myself to play a PS3 game I don't really want to play, when there are still 360 games I haven't played? It isn't just about having games it is also about having games that are more desireable than the competition. That is what PS3 is lacking, sure it has games, but 360 has a ton more games that are frankly better. I still haven't played Dead Rising, Undertow on XBLA, actually a bunch of XBLA games. Look, neither company is off to a good start for '08 and that favors 360 strong catalogue of older games, you can go back and play great games missed early for good fraction of the cost in many cases.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

You don't have any points to address.

My point was yes we know the hardware was sh!t. All the issues this guy listed were pretty much known.

I was saying what is more releveant now. Is what MS is doing going forward. Have they changed there testing practices and what not. It's been 2 plus year if nothing has changing in there production pipeline that's a issue. And I'm not saying they have changed because honestly they haven't payed for it in the markety place.


What point did you have other then shilling for MS.

The level of irrelevancy in your posts lately are increasing by orders of magnitude.

[slade]

The level of irrelevancy in your posts lately are increasing by orders of magnitude.

Well, I am just phoning it in these days.

Really, I'm just tired of this whole hype ridden industry and Xbots in general. This one fanbase has got to be the most annoying bunch of retards since the Sega boys from the Dreamcast days.

Give me my few games a year and that's it for me.

[Gadfly2317]

PS3 doesn't have any games in the same league as Bioshock or Halo 3...nothing with any soul or anything that makes it stick out compared to the 360.

The Ps3's first year looks to me to be as good as the 360's first year. You mention a couple second year 360 shooters as though Ps3 doesn't also have its second year in front of it.

There are plenty of exclusives that stand well against 360's first year games, and if you haven't wasted your money on the 30% failing crap-box, there are plenty of multi-plats too (hey, I don't have a 360, so I haven't played them and I don't care if they are on the 360); some multiplats are a little better, some a little worse, but on a reliable console with a great future.

Soul? Uncharted was one of the most organic, living breathing game worlds I've experienced with a great story and varied gameplay elements. Not just another bunch of grey hallways shooting aliens.

[thelastword]

This one fanbase has got to be the most annoying bunch of retards since the Sega boys from the Dreamcast days.

Give me my few games a year and that's it for me.Crazy stuff, but I remember reading a bit of VGR close to, or soon after the PS2 release. These dreamcast guys were some of the most bitter and vengeful fanboys I've ever seen. I mean even after the PS2's launch you had guys talking smack about every PS2 release. These guys went on and on about how dreamcast had the best games, overstated small issues on dreamcast ports to the PS2 etc..Hell, these guys are so insane, there's a poster going by the name of lazy8's, who still believes the dreamcast architecture is superior, even to modern consoles, farless how he sees the dreamcast against the PS2, CUBE and BOX. Sony killed my dreamcast and all that ass.


Well these guys were/are insane, but maybe these guys really loved the games of the cast, but bots? I don't know, bots are simply croaky crooners for a system which has a 30% defect ratio, and you can bet that they all denied this ratio, prior to this rrod insider interview.

I mean, you really have to spell it out for bots, and even when you do, it's the same useless banter, hell Neo aka (NOT THE ONE) believes great games are those which simply sell a tonne, it doesn't matter how many disappointment threads follow in the aftermath. These guys don't put two and two together, they never happen to see the writing on the wall, a million 360's will break down right in front of them and they will pimp We've got the great games to all hell and will deny all the great games on other systems which are selling consistently based on gamers reccomendation and word of mouth rather than marketing hype parties and celebrity showdowns.

Hell, these very games they pimp are all on the PC or coming minus a few, and in many cases they're also on the PS3. They fail to realize that no matter how much we love games, supporting junk like the 360 doesn't do us any favours in the longrun, it's like a seller slashing your wrist after you've given him business and saying I'll patch that up.

Dang, when guys don't realize that paying for a crappy P2P network nets you nothing better against free services elsewhere and keep themselves mired in the delusion that spells "you get what you pay for". These tools forget that sometimes we do pay for crap, it's been the legacy of the 360 so far, first pay for the crappy hardware and follow suit with the crappy online service. There's a trend there, don't you see.

The question is raised though, are these bots worse than than dreamcast fanboys? I suspect the fanaticism of the dreamcaster's vengeful mind may have significantly numbed the critical thinking power of these botting hybrids.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

You are the worst died in the wool fanboy in the history of the internet.

You have not one bit of objectivity. I am not by any means exagerating you are the fanboyest of all fanboys. I mean you readdily admit to looking up to ken kutaragi.

You can't find one xbot on this board who readily admits gaming on other platforms. Even Neo has a Wii.

Funny yout talk about word of mouth and you've said that about several games. As if 360 games don't have it. You talk about crappy online when the PS3 network isn't up to the standards the Xbox set last gen. You guys continually pimp games that are coming but we pimp games we are playing. We all know the RROD is a real issue. That's why I made the comment I did what is MS doing going forward not to "shill" for them but because I honestly maybe finished with there hardware. But I have the system now so I'm going to play the great games that are on it or coming.

You are nothing but a wannabe techwhore in disguise. Whose ignorance has been displayed on several occassions on this very message board. You talk a big game but don't give out your PSN ID??? You spend how much time posting here but rarely if ever talk about personal game experiences it's always "you know of tonne of folk" this or that. Please!

And don't get me started on not seeing the writing on the wrong. God.

[slade]

The question is raised though, are these bots worse than than dreamcast fanboys? I suspect the fanaticism of the dreamcaster's vengeful mind may have significantly numbed the critical thinking power of these botting hybrids.

They're pretty much the same as far as I can see, extolling the virtues of the games on their system of choice to the exclusion of all else. The only Xbox fanboy on this board that recently had anything bad to say about the games on the 360 was Glockstar but then MS adjusted his drug intake and well, he's back to towing the line. Then there's DTM shilling for MS all the time. He gets pissed off for some reason everytime I write that. Just embrace what you are man. BTW, we all know you didn't buy that PS3 legit. It just fell off the back of that truck, right. And finally there's TMG. There's just so much wrong there that I'm not even gonna touch that trainwreck.

But then, all three of these guys vs. Reggie Moody, who btw, now owns a 360. You can make a case that the DC fanboys just became Xbox fanboys. TMG owned a DC and Drunk was there too at the start. Don't know about Glockie but it wouldn't surprise me if he was a DC supporter. So in the end, I guess it just boils down to: different system, same annoying retards.

[T.Tashi]

the DC fanboys just became Xbox fanboys.

That's my theory, and not just on this board.

[folken001]

this is what i am seeing right now.

People: Hey xbots, M$ just put its dick in your a$$.
Xbots: So? What's ur FREAKING point?
People: DICK IIIIINNNNN YOUR BUTT?!!
Xbots: Have you ever considered the possibility that we might like it in my butt? That's right. If we are ok with IT in my butt, then you have no argument. PWN YOU and all YOUR MOTHERS!!! AARRRGGGHHHH!!!!

It's so sad, it brings tears in my eyes. Slade pretty much sumed it up. Few FPS a year is all it takes for xbots to be happy.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Damn folkie you just turned the homoerotic dial up to a 1000.

You guys are funny. Not even worth trying to debate it.

Oh and You're halfway right slade I bought the PS3 off a co worker.

[slade]

Oh and You're halfway right slade I bought the PS3 off a co worker.

http://www.polishedscrawl.com/images/blog/colbertCalledIt.jpg

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

dog I said that in the thread when I first got it.

[thelastword]

They're pretty much the same as far as I can see, extolling the virtues of the games on their system of choice to the exclusion of all else. The only Xbox fanboy on this board that recently had anything bad to say about the games on the 360 was Glockstar but then MS adjusted his drug intake and well, he's back to towing the line. Then there's DTM shilling for MS all the time. He gets pissed off for some reason everytime I write that. Just embrace what you are man. BTW, we all know you didn't buy that PS3 legit. It just fell off the back of that truck, right. And finally there's TMG. There's just so much wrong there that I'm not even gonna touch that trainwreck.

But then, all three of these guys vs. Reggie Moody, who btw, now owns a 360. You can make a case that the DC fanboys just became Xbox fanboys. TMG owned a DC and Drunk was there too at the start. Don't know about Glockie but it wouldn't surprise me if he was a DC supporter. So in the end, I guess it just boils down to: different system, same annoying retards.Yeah, pretty much. That's why I made the correlation even in my question, these guys are definitely dreamcast/xbox hybrids.

[folken001]

I just love to see how forgiving they are when it comes to M$ and its ****ty hardware. Their rage meter remains at zero even though it's later learned that M$ made these crappy ON PURPOSE. What does M$ have to do to piss any of the xbots off? Rape their mothers then cut off their heads and boil them and then pee in the skulls?!!!! I think I've said too much!

[Fivespot]

What's even more interesting in my opinion is that the XBOX 360 has a high rate of problems yet continues to outsell the PS3 in the US. Maybe it's not consumers being stupid and taking it in the butt (to use Folken's lingo) but rather the PS3 being that much less attractive a console.

It's obvious the 360 has gained quite a following. It's word of mouth is tremendous at least in the US and it's obvious the community supporting it is loud with their opinions which could increase interest rather than decrease it.

How's that old addage go? Any publicity is good publicity.

This is not my personal opinion however. I like the PS3.

[ilnadmy]

Yeah the 360 is definitely a juggernaut in the US. What I find interesting though is that all my international friends who own a next-gen console own a PS3, and not a 360 (excluding one of my friends, who bought a 360 first). Why the 360 is so popular in the US I don't understand. Maybe it's some cultural differences? I mean I know lots of Americans who look at the 360 lineup and get really excited because they want the latest Madden, the latest NBA, the latest Halo, or Mass Effect (let's be honest, outside of Mochan, who doesn't want this game?). My non-American friends though, they're playing Pro Evolution Soccer, they're playing Assassin's Creed, they're playing Resistance. They're not even all that interested in JRPGs or arthouse games like LittleBigPlanet, but they're still sticking with the PS3.

I'd be really interested to know why this is the case. I mean look at me, I love shooters as much as the next guy, but I'm not inclined to get a 360. Why, I have no clue. Sure, I prefer the upcoming PS3 exclusives like MGS4, FFXIII, White Knight Story, and Heavy Rain to the 360's lineup, but even if those games were multiplats, I'd still be a PS3 owner. Why? Is it because I grew up playing PSOne and PS2 at my friends' places? Is it because we used to have Winning Eleven tournaments on the PS2? Is it because most everyone back home had a chipped PS2 at one point in the last generation? And when I say everyone I mean every single one of my friends, no exceptions.

Hell, just look at this board. The two international posters here, Mochan and I, don't own a 360. Mochan doesn't own a PS3 either, but I'm pretty sure he'd lean towards getting a PS3 before getting a 360 (unless he just has to play that Halo 3 :D). Looking at international sales numbers, the PS3 outsells the 360, especially in Japan (although that's an easier nut to crack).

I think this is the strategy that Sony is taking currently. It doesn't seem to be focusing on the American market so much as the international market. Look at their exclusives: MGS4, FFXIII, Uncharted, Ratchet and Clank, Heavy Rain, God of War 3. Compare to the 360's exclusives: Halo 3, BioShock, Mass Effect, Perfect Dark, Crackdown. I guess Sony realizes how strong the PlayStation brand is in the international market, and so it's playing to its strengths. After all, the international market is a lot bigger than the American market.

Edit: Just realized, all PS3 games are region-free. How's that for an international strategy?

[folken001]

What's even more interesting in my opinion is that the XBOX 360 has a high rate of problems yet continues to outsell the PS3 in the US. Maybe it's not consumers being stupid and taking it in the butt (to use Folken's lingo) but rather the PS3 being that much less attractive a console.

It's obvious the 360 has gained quite a following. It's word of mouth is tremendous at least in the US and it's obvious the community supporting it is loud with their opinions which could increase interest rather than decrease it.

How's that old addage go? Any publicity is good publicity.

This is not my personal opinion however. I like the PS3.

And what's even more interesting is that M$ did it with Halo.

I think it's just that US men like to shoot at stuff. Violence and the whole macho mentality are really big here and that's exactly what M$ has been selling since the beginning.

[T.Tashi]

I have a Polish friend living in Ireland right now and she and her bf have a PS2 and PS3 as well. No 360. I had a Japanese friend I chatted with but that's been 4 years ago. He was really looking forward to the 360 though, but I have no clue if he really bought it.

Well all the FPS on the Xbox360 are on PC, if I'm not mistaken, so Mochan has no reason to want to convert to playing the version with the inferior controls.

I think Europe is more ethic conscious than the U.S. Microsoft has a long history of shoddy products and questionable business practices that aren't as easily overlooked in Europe as they are here.Plus this administration is not the most popular in terms of how the international community feels about the USA right now, so I'm sure some of that extends to Microsoft.

[silversparrow]

The Playstation brand is synonymous with gaming in much of Europe. The PS1 was the first console to really break through to the masses over there. The NES and SNES were huge successes in Japan and North America but not so much in Europe.

In addition to that I think the RROD issue has hurt 360 sales in the region. Europeans are pretty sensitive about product reliability, and so the 360's reputation for breaking down at a moment's notice hasn't done MS any favors.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

I don't know about all of Europe but England (went there last year) is 360 heavy but the Wii is still the biggest thing. They have bars with Wii's in watching drunk brits play Wii boxing is hilarous.. I think I made a post about it here.

As for the states the PS3 just isn't in the conscious of the casual gamer. Sony misinterperted there fanbase. I said this before the PS3 was launched. A lot of PS2 owners aren't neccessarily Playstation fans. There Madden fans, there GTA fans, Nascar fans or whatever. If you look at the internet it was always funny how Sony by far had the biggest marketshare but there fanbase on the net was the quietest. Sony coming second and having games like Ea sports become synomous with the 360 killed them here. They will never catch up in the states. And Europe isn't what you guys think. It's Wii country just like Japan Sony is fighting for second (distant) in Europe and there still currently losing there.

Nintendo fans love Mario Zelda and what have you Xbots love Halo Playstation fans love any number of multiple games in the states like I said it was mainly Madden and GTA and Need for Speed multiplat games. So Sony has no grip on those consumers.

[ilnadmy]

I'd argue that Sony fans love MGS, FF, Pro Evolution Soccer (this one is huge, you have no clue), and the AAA first-party games like God of War.

[Mochan]

Yeah the 360 is definitely a juggernaut in the US. What I find interesting though is that all my international friends who own a next-gen console own a PS3, and not a 360 (excluding one of my friends, who bought a 360 first). Why the 360 is so popular in the US I don't understand. Maybe it's some cultural differences?

I think it's not just the cultural difference, it's also the marketing in the US. From what I gather the Xbox has a strong marketing push in the US, but frankly here in the Philippines it's like nobody's ever heard of it. The PS3 though is relatively high-profile and has shown up in many local magazines. Also, the XBox 360 is an American console, designed for an American market.

And yes, I am totally going to get a PS3 before a 360, no question. The Playstation Brand is definitely stronger than the Xbox brand internationally.

[ilnadmy]

Oops I forgot the third international poster on these boards, ceevee, but the guy is as likely to buy a next-gen console as he is to gush all about how great a game Oblivion is.

[Mochan]

Well all the FPS on the Xbox360 are on PC, if I'm not mistaken, so Mochan has no reason to want to convert to playing the version with the inferior controls.

Not all but most of them are, the only notable exception being Halo 3, and as we all know I'm not all that interested in that, and can wait for it to hit the PC in like 3 years. The games that would make me get a 360 are few, but probably the biggest incentive for me is Culdcept Saga. Infinite Undiscovery is another possible one.

Playstation fans are definitely for MGS, FF, and Pro Evo. Pro Evo is the Madden of the Playstation around the world where soccer is more popular than basketball.

ceevee I believe is British, or was that someone else? No wait that was moya...

[thelastword]

America is only one region and the 360 has a lead in America for two reasons;

1.) It was the first next gen console out, some folk wanted to witness and experience HD console gaming then so they bought the system, obviously hardcore bots were naturally on board, since the xbox180 was pretty much non existent that accounts for the majority of 360 sales in America.

2.) Towards the end of the box's first year, a title called gibs of war landed, the first game to really show that the box had some next gen muscle, obviously, this title catered greatly to American tastes and it sold a few consoles, then the second year, they had a bolt tonne of shooters. The majority of them rated really well, it's also noteworthy that they dropped their main weapon, a title that's pretty much the machine, in essence their very own weapon of ultimate destruction.

I won't comment on whether all these games were deserving of these reviews, but it's obvious that Americans like to shoot guns in games, moreso than any other region, so MS deployed their whole FPS arsenal in their second year. All in all, I don't think that the higher priced PS3 did badly at all in the grand scheme of things looking at the worldwide score and the fact that it hasn't splooged it's heavy gunners.

The 360 is at 16 million worldwide and the PS3 is at 9, the 360 is out for two years , the PS3 is out for one, the 360 has deployed it's heaviest gunners, the PS3 has not done so as yet. All it did was push new IP's and blend in as much variety in it's first year as possible, and get people anticipating the sequels to these new Ip's and ofcourse attempt to establish these sequels into major franchises and huge gunners themselves. At the same time in the same year releasing a flood of the anticipated heavy hitters emanating from previous gens; like MGS4, KZONE2, GT5, FF etc.. .. hell, along with even more new IP's like infamous and eight days, hell, how about LBP?

This is what playstation has always been about, it's second year has always created a storm, due to the overload of quality and variety in games. If people thought 2007 was great for gaming, they haven't seen anything yet. I think playstation games and sales will do the talking. Just look how things are starting to shift towards the PS3 even on the multiplat scene for the PS3, Burnout3 on the PS3 is a no brainer and stores are basically selling out of the PS3 version whilst the 360 version are more widely available. DMC4 across the world is going to be upsetting. That is what I told folk, 2007 was the year where the PS3 laid the foundation, this year is where it cleans house.

[Gadfly2317]

Not all but most of them are, the only notable exception being Halo 3, and as we all know I'm not all that interested in that, and can wait for it to hit the PC in like 3 years. The games that would make me get a 360 are few, but probably the biggest incentive for me is Culdcept Saga. Infinite Undiscovery is another possible one.

I think the odds of a Culdcept game (Saga, or a variation) ending up on Ps3 or Wii is extremely high. It's really weird that the developer even bothered with a 360 version.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

I was talking about the US playstation casual fans. PES Winning 11 is good but is outsold by FiFa every single year. And this year aparently the game wasn't as good.

FFis huge and will remain so. MGS is on a decline we'll see if 4 can be MGS RE4. But it's not the world beater it once was. GT is huge but will it be out this year. GOW3 won't make it this year God of War 2 just came out last year the PSP version (sickness) is coming this year we won't see GOW3 till at least 09 maybe 2010. But I'll be there day 1 for that.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Burnout3 on the PS3 is a no brainer and stores are basically selling out of the PS3 version whilst the 360 version are more widely available. DMC4 across the world is going to be upsetting. That is what I told folk, 2007 was the year where the PS3 laid the foundation, this year is where it cleans house.

There isn't much difference I've played both. BO and DMC are great games but aren't system movers. GTA is leading on the 360 evidenced by the fact that 360 version is being shown while the PS3 version is MIA. And rumored to be holding up it's development.

By the way BO will sell best on the 360 at least by a 100k.

[Gadfly2317]

I was talking about the US playstation casual fans. PES Winning 11 is good but is outsold by FiFa every single year. And this year aparently the game wasn't as good.

FFis huge and will remain so. MGS is on a decline we'll see if 4 can be MGS RE4. But it's not the world beater it once was. GT is huge but will it be out this year. GOW3 won't make it this year God of War 2 just came out last year the PSP version (sickness) is coming this year we won't see GOW3 till at least 09 maybe 2010. But I'll be there day 1 for that.

Speaking of GoW PsP, not sure when it comes out but Gamestop is giving out GoW demo disks with a $5 pre-order. I pre-ordered but haven't tried the demo yet. Will probably switch the $5 to some other game later because I can't really imagine a game like this with PsP controls and small screen, but who knows, maybe the demo will blow me away.

Sony pretty much owns me in 2008. Ps3 and PsP are where most of my must-buy titles are this year, rather than the Wii and DS which were previously where I was gaming most heavily. As for 360 The RRoD is really just a "final straw" sorta thing with me. I'm interested in some of the 360 stuff, but it comes in third for me. I could probably squeeze in some time for a 360, but only by skipping titles I want to play on other systems I already have, so the RRoD has probably been a good thing for me, helping my keep my attention-deficit gaming personality focused on systems I already own, and getting more value out of them.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Speaking of GoW PsP, not sure when it comes out but Gamestop is giving out GoW demo disks with a $5 pre-order. I pre-ordered but haven't tried the demo yet. Will probably switch the $5 to some other game later because I can't really imagine a game like this with PsP controls and small screen, but who knows, maybe the demo will blow me away.

On my way to Gamestop right now.

Sony pretty much owns me in 2008. Ps3 and PsP are where most of my must-buy titles are this year, rather than the Wii and DS which were previously where I was gaming most heavily. As for 360 The RRoD is really just a "final straw" sorta thing with me. I'm interested in some of the 360 stuff, but it comes in third for me. I could probably squeeze in some time for a 360, but only by skipping titles I want to play on other systems I already have, so the RRoD has probably been a good thing for me, helping my keep my attention-deficit gaming personality focused on systems I already own, and getting more value out of them.

I know what you mean. That's why I'm waiting on Burnout and DMC I still haven't finished all my holiday games. I love SMG but I haven't finished it neither have I finshed MP3 I'm only a couple hours into that.

My PS3 is about to move into the family room because right now it's just a movie player. And there just isn't enough time in the day to play everything. And my favorite games are on the 360.

[Fivespot]

I think playstation games and sales will do the talking.

Great as long as you stop talking for them. Thanks in advance.