Microsoft's silence at CES could be the start of a tough year for the Xbox.

[slade]

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=32020

Microsoft's silence at CES could be the start of a tough year for the Xbox.

Success comes in many guises. Most people would agree that 2007 was a successful year for the Xbox 360 - a year when the firm's head-start over rival Sony was used to great effect, and when the console's software line-up was widely considered to be one of the strongest the industry has ever seen.

It was the year in which Halo 3 arrived, was critically acclaimed, and sold around 8 million copies - and perhaps most impressively of all, it was the year when Halo 3 almost seemed buried in an avalanche of superb games, whereas in any previous year it would have stood astride the software landscape like a colossus. It was the year when Xbox Live user figures passed the 10 million mark, and the year when Microsoft registered its second ever profitable quarter for the Xbox division (although it almost certainly slid back into a loss in the following quarter).

A good year, then? Well - maybe. Success is multi-faceted, and it's important to look at it from many angles before you make up your mind and stick a label on something. There are other ways in which 2007 was a terrible year for Microsoft - and in some regards, the company's lacklustre showing at CES in Las Vegas last week may be a hangover from those failings.

A number of problems plagued the Xbox 360 throughout the year. The woes over failing consoles finally reached the point where Microsoft could no longer ignore the system's dismal reliability - forcing it to extend its hardware warranty and set aside a billion-dollar reserve to fund repairs.

It may not have been too little, but it was definitely too late. The mainstream media had already latched onto the idea that the Xbox 360 was badly manufactured and prone to failure - while the hardcore gamers who had been Microsoft's most staunch word-of-mouth warriors suddenly became a liability, as they started talking to friends and forums about being on their third or fourth replacement Xbox 360.

No sooner had that furore died down, than it was replaced by another - the dismal failure of the Xbox Live system to cope with demand over Christmas, which has now extended into the New Year with no fix in sight. Customers paying for a rock-solid online gaming service are getting anything but; once again, Microsoft's ability to design and create amazing products seems to be let down by its ability to deliver quality on an ongoing basis. The problems aren't remotely as serious as the "Red Ring of Death" flaw on the 360 itself, but it's exactly the kind of press the console doesn't need right now.

For hardcore gamers, these are the problems which have put a dampener on enthusiasm for the 360 even in the face of a superb software line-up. Microsoft faces an even bigger problem with the console, however, to which its reliability concerns are only one contributing factor. The problem is this; it's still simply not clear how the company is going to grow its market, and there are strong signs that growth is already slowing down.

Along with plenty of other critics and commentators, I've been pointing out for a long time that the Xbox 360 still doesn't have sufficient appeal outside of the "cars and guns" market - the same 16 to 24 year old consumers who bought the original Xbox. A smattering of Japanese RPGs and, well, Viva Pinata, does not amount to a mass-market strategy that will finally unseat the PlayStation.

The proof of this unappetising pudding? Quick dinner-napkin calculations based on Microsoft's own estimates show that in 2007, the firm shipped fewer Xbox 360 consoles than it did in 2006. It's not a huge difference - but that's not what the growth curve is meant to look like, especially not when there's such an acclaimed line-up of software on offer.

How does all of this translate to the near-absence of Xbox from the firm's keynote at CES? Quite simply, there's a feeling that right now, Microsoft's Xbox division is looking long and hard at where it stands in the market - and how it breaks out of its current position to become a credible market leader. Despite a strong start and a loyal fanbase, it is assailed with challenges that will be difficult to overcome.

On one hand, it needs to learn how to appeal to the mass market - something which doesn't seem to come naturally to the product or the company. On the software front, Microsoft seemingly remains convinced that there is a single "mass market" which can be attracted by building a handful of games in key areas. The reality is very different; the "mass market" is merely a collection of a huge number of niches, and it's this vast diaspora of tastes which Sony has been excellent at providing for.

The PlayStation consoles have played host to a bewildering variety of software for different gaming tastes, and that's why they achieved mass market success - simply funding a few JRPGs and deliberately "quirky" titles isn't going to emulate this. An overhaul of how Microsoft approaches software development for its platforms as a whole may be required to nurture that kind of game library.

On the other hand, perhaps an even more daunting challenge is keeping the faithful satisfied in 2008. Going into 2007, the Xbox 360 release list looked absolutely stunning - whereas the 2008 schedule at this point in time looks comparatively barren. If Microsoft wants to maintain its momentum, let alone building new momentum, it needs to repeat the software success of 2007 - and it needs to do it without Bioware and Bizarre, both of which developed key Xbox 360 exclusives in the past but now belong to multi-platform publishers. It also needs to do it without Bungie; not only now an independent studio (albeit still likely to work on 360 exclusives), but also highly unlikely to have another game ready until 2009.

None of this is insurmountable, but it's certainly not going to be an easy ride either. Microsoft has done an absolutely amazing job in some regards - its hardware, despite launching a year earlier than the PS3, has held its own extremely well in terms of technical prowess, and its online service continues to be the benchmark for the whole industry. In terms of software, the late 2007 line-up is arguably one of the best the market has ever seen, fuelling an incredibly strong quarter for the industry as a whole.

Continuing that success, however, won't happen just through sitting on a sack full of laurels. In 2008, Microsoft's challenges will be greater than ever before. The Wii is trouncing the Xbox 360 in the casual market; the PS3 is keeping pace with it in week to week sales, despite acres of negative press, and at present has a more appealing 2008 line-up. Reliability problems just won't go away, the mass-market remains just as elusive as it's ever been, and key developers have been lost to third-party publishers. Nobody could describe a division that's just had such a brilliant couple of quarters as being in crisis - but when Microsoft finally breaks the silence that we witnessed at CES, it had better have some great responses to the challenges 2008 brings.

One thing in there I fully agree with: the inevitable knock against the 360 for lack of variety. After two years, it's shameful how bad the console still is in regards to worthwhile games to play. All the big games are mostly FPS's with a smattering of every other genre. It's not nearly enough variety.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

The variety is there. It's mulitplatform and from the 3rd parties but it's there. As opposed to Sony where they cover all bases basically from the 1st party. I could see both points. Sony is going to push there hardware themselves MS let the 3rd parties feel in the gaps and with the level of 34d party succes I can see why they do this.

PS3 is keeping pace in month to month sales? Since when did this happen? There's other questionalble opinons as well but I'm not going to get into. One thing I do agree is they need to get the live problems fixed and the RROD solved going forward. Basically the rest comes down to a we don't know what they have so they don't have anything. IF there aren't any announcements at GDC then it'll be time to start questioning things.

[Glockstar]

Personally, I think Microsoft's silence at the CES was a stunned silence. Brought about the Warner-bluray bomb.

"Quite simply, there's a feeling that right now, Microsoft's Xbox division is looking long and hard at where it stands in the market..." - that part is on the nosey.


One thing in there I fully agree with: the inevitable knock against the 360 for lack of variety. After two years, it's shameful how bad the console still is in regards to worthwhile games to play. All the big games are mostly FPS's with a smattering of every other genre. It's not nearly enough variety.

Hrmph. I agree with almost everything in the article.

The only thing I disagree about - and disagree with you about, especially - is the overlooking of Xbox Live Arcade. There's your mass-market and casual appeal. As well as your variety.

And you saying there are 'no worthwhile games to play'... are you fracking nuts?! That's an assinine statement. Go take a look at GameRankings - look at all the games that scored in the 90 percentile, and above - and come back and say that again with a straight face.

Normally I'd say eff the GameRankings, and cite the dozens and dozens of other games that real people acknowledge as great, but I already know that wouldn't mean jack to you either. The problem isn't with the 360, or with it's library of games... it's with you. And your homogeneous taste in games.

Your comment about there not being any variety in the 360's lineup demonstrates your narrowminded views and tastes even further. There's a ton of variety in the shooter and first-person viewpoint genres alone! You think all shooters are the same, and you lump all first-person games on the same raft... they are not; you cannot do that. There are big differences between Halo 3, Rainbow Six Vegas, Prey, BioShock, Call of Duty 2, Condemned, Shadowrun, The Darkness, etc... and if you'd step outside of your box you'd see that.

You may vocalize your bitterness with the 360, but I know you have to be bitter with your other next-gen gaming options as well. Namely with the PS3. And I guarantee you that after the PS3's second year - you are going to be just as bitter with it as you are about the 360's now.

Diversify, man! Try different things! And for gosh sakes, get over your hatred (for MS). It's keeping you from really enjoying life. Get on Live. And start downloading some things.

[Jyoharl]

Well....I won't say that this will be a tough year for Microsoft, but this will damn sure be an interesting one. Sony got the PS3 fully running, Nintendo got the Wii fully running, and MS had a great 2007 year, so they're in the lead with their "Conceptual Base".

It's only January, so companies are signing contracts and making deals. Sony's going to be talking with Quantic Dream to get another Indigo Prophecy out there, as well as bring out some footage of Omnikron 2, with Heavy Rain's engine sure to blow people AWAY this time for sure. lol remember Quantic Dream? I bet you don't.

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All they need to do now is smooth out the edges, and work on the facial skeletal system and the vocal sync, and they got something great here. Maybe they should get some advice from Naughty Dog about this. Jak and Daxter still has the best animations in this department, and Uncharted is no different.

Companies been watching them for awhile...let's ignore Squaresoft for a moment, because it's companies like Quantic Dream that's going to be giving companies a big push.

You KNOW Microsoft is beating themselves up in the face when Ninja Theory came up to them with Heavenly Sword and they REJECTED IT! Only to see it go to the PS3, and Nariko be hailed as the Goddess of War. I don't think Sony bought those guys out yet, but their next title might be something for MS to throw money at, especially since they don't have the iron shaft in Bizarre and Bungie anymore.

Nintendo's going to be making some huge JRPG influence with their Camelot division hopefully putting Golden Sun 3 on the Wii. They better, leaving Golden Sun 2 with a cliffhanger like they did. I'm hopeful that their meaty games are going to be hitting this year. But hey, who knows...

And finally, you have companies that side with no one. These guys are the ones that take the engines like Unreal...and piss on it. I'm sure you peeps been watching the progress of Project Offset. When it finally does release, and hopefully soon, ATI and Nvidia will be making new tweaks to their Graphics cards just to make this game play properly...and DriectX 11 and OpenGL 4 will need to be released. rofl!

Anyway...2008 is going to be great.

[T.Tashi]

I think Sony saw the writing on the wall with exclusives and thought they had better start developing more on their own in that area, and if I'm not mistaken, Sony has more 1st party titles in development than Microsoft or even Nintendo. On the flip side, MS lost some exclusive development so the ability to differeniate itself like it did in 07 will be more difficult.

Nintendo figured out how to grow the market. A woman walked into Gamestop the other day looking for a DS and they were even out of those. And if I hear one more story about senior citizens and the Wii I'll scream. Although I think that's great.
There is casual appeal on the 360 and Live, but you have to crack the hardcore shell to get to the chewy casual gamer center and that involves demystifying the controller. I think the key factor in Nintendo's dominance is not the games perse. It's that they did away with the complexity of the controller. To bowl you push one button. For tennis you just wave your arm. Doesn't get any more simple than that.

I think Glock is right. The TW issue with bluray probably killed any real major announcement MS had.

I loved Indigo Prophecy. One of the best adventure games on the PS2, IMHO. I'd really dig a sequel.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Indigo Prophecy but I hated how they went all maxtrix with the end of it.

[Mochan]

Personally, I think Microsoft's silence at the CES was a stunned silence. Brought about the Warner-bluray bomb.

Why the hell would MS care about the HD wars? Enough to be in a "stunned silence?" What they were so caught up that their HD DVD add on won't sell anymore that they couldn't say anything about the software lineup for 2008, nothing? Surely you jest.

It doesn't matter what state of mind you're in if you've got a software lineup you'd be talking about it!


Anyway the article basically just raised points which we Xbox critics have been raising for hte past few months. It's almost amazing how accurate our points on this board are when compared to game journalist editorials. You'd almost think those feature articles are plagiarizing us.

[Mochan]

Goddamn this board and its posting issues!

[T.Tashi]

Indigo Prophecy but I hated how they went all maxtrix with the end of it.

LOL! Yeah, true.

[slade]

And you saying there are 'no worthwhile games to play'... are you fracking nuts?! That's an assinine statement. Go take a look at GameRankings - look at all the games that scored in the 90 percentile, and above - and come back and say that again with a straight face.

Did just that, here's the top ten from Gamerankings by percentile:

1. The Orange Box X360 EA Games 50 9.1 96.136%
2. BioShock X360 2K Games 87 9.1 95.299%
3. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare X360 Activision 66 8.8 94.060%
4. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion X360 2K Games 102 9.2 94.012%
5. Gears of War X360 Microsoft Game Studios 109 8.7 93.789%
6. Halo 3 X360 Microsoft Game Studios 84 8.5 93.313%
7. Rock Band X360 MTV Games 47 8.2 93.095%
8. Guitar Hero II X360 RedOctane 58 8.1 92.064%
9. Mass Effect X360 Microsoft Game Studios 64 9.1 90.956%
10. Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter X360 Ubisoft 88 8.7 90.540%

Apart from Gears, I wouldn't buy any of those games. BTW, the irony of my having bought Bioshock is not lost on me. I bought into the hype.

Normally I'd say eff the GameRankings, and cite the dozens and dozens of other games that real people acknowledge as great, but I already know that wouldn't mean jack to you either. The problem isn't with the 360, or with it's library of games... it's with you. And your homogeneous taste in games.

Apparently, it's not just me that acknowledges this issue. What you and the Xbot contingent don't get is that the FPS games on the 360 are its premiere titles. Those games are what score high and what, for the most part, sell the system. Now, you can sit there and list off a smattering of titles across the genres which aren't even all that great but you would miss the point completely. What people like me are not content with is just that, the low ratio of games in other genres. Variety isn't just handing us one or two titles in a particular genre like you guys seem to think. As for this next bit:

Your comment about there not being any variety in the 360's lineup demonstrates your narrowminded views and tastes even further. There's a ton of variety in the shooter and first-person viewpoint genres alone! You think all shooters are the same, and you lump all first-person games on the same raft... they are not; you cannot do that. There are big differences between Halo 3, Rainbow Six Vegas, Prey, BioShock, Call of Duty 2, Condemned, Shadowrun, The Darkness, etc... and if you'd step outside of your box you'd see that.

I acknowledge that you see variety there. It's the same as when I say DMC, Onimusha, Ninja Gaiden, God Hand and God of War are all different from each other. Now most only see those games as hack and slash and nothing more, nothing less. Well, this is the same thing here with me. The core mechanic of those games is the same, the FP view and I won't look past that.

Anyway, about Live Arcade. I don't acknowledge it. I left 16 bit gaming behind ages ago.

[T.Tashi]

Did just that, here's the top ten from Gamerankings by percentile:

1. The Orange Box X360 EA Games 50 9.1 96.136%
2. BioShock X360 2K Games 87 9.1 95.299%
3. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare X360 Activision 66 8.8 94.060%
4. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion X360 2K Games 102 9.2 94.012%
5. Gears of War X360 Microsoft Game Studios 109 8.7 93.789%
6. Halo 3 X360 Microsoft Game Studios 84 8.5 93.313%
7. Rock Band X360 MTV Games 47 8.2 93.095%
8. Guitar Hero II X360 RedOctane 58 8.1 92.064%
9. Mass Effect X360 Microsoft Game Studios 64 9.1 90.956%
10. Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter X360 Ubisoft 88 8.7 90.540%

Apart from Gears, I wouldn't buy any of those games. BTW, the irony of my having bought Bioshock is not lost on me. I bought into the hype.



Apparently, it's not just me that acknowledges this issue. What you and the Xbot contingent don't get is that the FPS games on the 360 are its premiere titles. Those games are what score high and what, for the most part, sell the system. Now, you can sit there and list off a smattering of titles across the genres which aren't even all that great but you would miss the point completely. What people like me are not content with is just that, the low ratio of games in other genres. Variety isn't just handing us one or two titles in a particular genre like you guys seem to think. As for this next bit:



I acknowledge that you see variety there. It's the same as when I say DMC, Onimusha, Ninja Gaiden, God Hand and God of War are all different from each other. Now most only see those games as hack and slash and nothing more, nothing less. Well, this is the same thing here with me. The core mechanic of those games is the same, the FP view and I won't look past that.

Anyway, about Live Arcade. I don't acknowledge it. I left 16 bit gaming behind ages ago.

Exactly. If I built a pyramid of nutrition based on the games that nourished me vs. the 360 library, I'd starve to death.

I might pick up a FPS now and then but a variety of FPS means little to me (other than there may be 1 or 2 I like), just like a variety of JRPGs mean little to others. It's like saying you can have meat served 50 different ways and you're a vegetarian.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

The problem here is of course we have the hypocrites. The people who claim a lack of variety when the variety is there, smackin' them in the face. They won't play Forza, but they will wait years for Gran Turismo. They won't Viva or Kameo, but they claim R&C is "the greatest" when it isn't anything special. They ignore the fact that all of the much beloved PS3 franchises from Armored Core, to Ace Combat, to VF5 are all on the 360. They love Final Fantasy, but Blue Dragon is crap and Lost Oddysey "will be crap!"

If you have a 360 and cannot find a diverse line-up of games it is simply because you won't allow yourself to enjoy the system. Right now my househould is playing DDR, Naruto, Scene-It, and M.E. I think that is pretty damn diverse. I fail to see how Naruto, which is a very good game, is not right up Slade's alley. I fail to see why Slade isn't playing VF5 online, lemme guess "the delay will make me lose a match, so i'll beat up on my little brother!"

There are a bunch of games from Dead Rising to Rockstar's Table Tennis. The fact of the matter is these games just don't sell, so they don't get the publicity and people think they don't exist or forget about them. They are there, what does it matter if they don't sell 2 million copies. Niche games never sold platinum numbers on PS2, and what does it matter if you simply want to enjoy it yourself. Nothing is stopping a J-RPG fan from enjoying Blue Dragon, aside from himself.

Whatever perceived problems there are for the 360 are even larger problems on the PS3. The PS3 currently lacks the depth the 360 has in all genres. Plus with its programming hurdles, small installed base, and consumers who would rather watch movies, you just aren't going to see the number of niche games on PS3 that we saw on PS2. Half of them are crap anyway, look at the Wii and the tons of crappy games on that system.

Another thing is, this crowd here only measures diversity one way. They don't look at a game like Command&Conquer a true RTS as diversity. Only if it is a Japanese game or a kiddie game can it be diversity. Diversity drills down into sub-genres. In my opinion there aren't ever enough sim racers on the market, but I know sim-racers don't sell well. So why would I be surprised there are so few? The reason why PS2 and the reason why Wii will see a lot of these odd games, is because they mostly low-budget crap. To make a game of tic-tac-toe on PS3 is no longer low budget so PS3's line-up will be more similar to the 360s. If you want more diversity u will simply have to look at XBLA, which has the low budget diverse games at better prices and quite frankly more quality than the tons of crappy Wii and PS2 games.

360 may have a problem expanding beyond the 20-35 year old male, but it certainly isn't for lack of trying, and it can't be said it is due to lack of variety in games. If the product is there but the results are missing, then that's an image problem, that's a marketing problem. People's minds play tricks on them, right now Slade, Tashi, Ilnadmy, Gadfly are all convinced PS3 has a deeper and more varied line-up and this year will belong to the PS3. They have themselves fooled.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Exactly. If I built a pyramid of nutrition based on the games that nourished me vs. the 360 library, I'd starve to death.

I might pick up a FPS now and then but a variety of FPS means little to me (other than there may be 1 or 2 I like), just like a variety of JRPGs mean little to others. It's like saying you can have meat served 50 different ways and you're a vegetarian.

This is just a convenient myth you have yourself encircled in. You can get an XBOX 360 and never have to play those games and still be entertained. You can't find many of the quality games in diverse genres PS3 or Wii for that matter, that are on the 360. You can't really cast a net on the 360 without first bagging up the PS3, not this generation. Any criticism of the 360 is first being violated by the PS3. Now you might argue that will change soon, if your definition of soon is like 2 or 3 years, you might be right. But this will certainly be another year where the 360 has more exclusives in more genres than PS3. Everything from Fable2 to Lost Oddysey, to Alan Wake to Too Human and even RTS games like Halo Wars.

The only advantage PS3 ever had and continues to have is the reliability argument, no other position can be supported at the moment.

[Mochan]

They love Final Fantasy, but Blue Dragon is crap and Lost Oddysey

Blue Dragon *IS* crap. It's a throwback to the days of Final Fantasy 1 and Dragon Warrior 1! But with shiny graphics. Final Fantasy has long since evolved past that, but since you didn't play FF12, you didn't know that!


For the rest of your post yes I have said it 360 has the best library thus far and there is a lot more variety than i the past.

But it's nowhere near the kind of variety we got on the PS2, let's not get ahead of ourselves here we only have token support for the "new" genres right now. Naruto? So we now have like 3 Japanese fighters on the 360 (Naruto, DoA and VF). We had at least 10 franchises (franchises, not games) on the PS2. We have Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey, Trusty Bell and Enchant Arms on 360, we had at least 20 JRPG (franchises) on the PS2. Actually I think it's more like at least 50, who knows I never counted.

But yes this doesn't change that there's a lot more variety on the 360. Will the 360 keep it up and eventually flesh out its library as well as the PS1 and PS2 did? I hope not, because I doubt MS is going to fix the 360 hardware anytime soon and I don't want to miss any more good games as 360 exclusives. Sony looks like it's *finally* getting down to business in 2008 but this is right now still catchup mode to the 360. But it's doing a better job thus far there's already more variation there than the 360 did last year.

360's variety is not all there yet we still have just mostly token efforts in the neglected genre.

Another thing is, this crowd here only measures diversity one way. They don't look at a game like Command&Conquer a true RTS as diversity.

It's not exactly diversity if there's only one such game on the system. You'll be getting like your 2nd RTS in 2008 with Halo Wars. That's a grand total of 2 RTS in 3 years. Nobody ever claimed RTS diversity for the Dreamcast with Thousand Sword. Nobody even CARED.

Like I said, token effort. It's not enough to really say the system has true diversity.


And as for it being a marketing/image problem, that is true, and that is yet another fault.

[slade]

snip

Why would I buy VF for 360 when I already own the PS3 version? Viva isn't even the same type of game as Kameo and Ratchet and I have owned and have played Kameo.

Now one thing you're right about is that PS3 also has this diversity problem but its only been out on the market for one year and going forward, Sony is overcoming this hurdle much better then MS. I guess that's what happens when you have your own first party studios.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

LotR, C&C, Supreme Commander, Universe at War, End War, Halo Wars, World in Conflict C&C expansion.

All are on or coming to 360 in 08

[Mochan]

Ok my bad looks like we have enough RTS onboard for the 360 then! (still doesn't break away from the guns and goons staple of the 360 though).

[Gadfly2317]

Gadfly are all convinced PS3 has a deeper and more varied line-up and this year will belong to the PS3. They have themselves fooled.
.

No, I'm not convinced that the Ps3 has a deeper and more varied line-up than 360. That's assinine. I think they both have huge gaping needs, but then the Ps2 at 1yrs 2mos old wasn't any better. I can't think of ANY system that has EVER had "deep variety in the majority of genres and niches" when it was only 1 year and 2 mos old.

The only thing I'm convinced of is that between both systems offerings, on th exclusive titles, I am more attracted by the titles on the Ps3. Also, I would never buy a product with a 30% failure rate.

"Reliable system" is a big deal to me, we all know that most 360 owners on this board have nightmare stories. Consider multiplat games like GTA IV and Burnout Paradise. Right now, based on how hooked I am on the demo of Burnout Paradise (I've been playing it online heavily), I might likely be playing this game for the next six months. The two systems cost the same, so I could be playing this on a risky red-ring system, or I could be playing it on a reliable system with free online, blu-ray movie playback.

I do think Ps3 looks like it might have a more interesting '08 than the 360, but I'm not even sure about that. I just know there's more than enough to keep me busy on the system that isn't known for falling apart, and whatever happens to be exclusive on the fall-apart system, well, I guess I'll miss out for now. No big deal.

[slade]

Actually, PS2 at 1 year old had twice the library of either system at the moment. If given the choice right now between these three platforms, I'd immediately step through the time vortex that takes me back to 2001.

[T.Tashi]

This is just a convenient myth you have yourself encircled in. You can get an XBOX 360 and never have to play those games and still be entertained. You can't find many of the quality games in diverse genres PS3 or Wii for that matter, that are on the 360. You can't really cast a net on the 360 without first bagging up the PS3, not this generation. Any criticism of the 360 is first being violated by the PS3. Now you might argue that will change soon, if your definition of soon is like 2 or 3 years, you might be right. But this will certainly be another year where the 360 has more exclusives in more genres than PS3. Everything from Fable2 to Lost Oddysey, to Alan Wake to Too Human and even RTS games like Halo Wars.

The only advantage PS3 ever had and continues to have is the reliability argument, no other position can be supported at the moment.

You can put the Xbox and Xbox360 library together and the problem would be exactly the same because Microsoft used the same play book. I have backwards compatibility to a lot of games on the PS2 I haven't played or finished yet. Backwards compatible to games like Persona3 and God of War 2, GOTY nominees that landed in 2007. Oh but you don't play last generation games. Oh, wait, in another thread you accused people of being tech whores and graphic whores, so... you ARE about the gameplay... but you did make that comment about being through with last gen... is that because Microsoft told you you were through with last gen by pulling the plug on the Xbox? You contradict yourself so much, it's hard to keep track.

Have you checked the PS3 list of what's coming in '08 or how many exclusive games are in development for the PS3?

[theWacoKid]

If you have a 360 and cannot find a diverse line-up of games it is simply because you won't allow yourself to enjoy the system. Right now my househould is playing DDR, Naruto, Scene-It, and M.E. I think that is pretty damn diverse. I fail to see how Naruto, which is a very good game, is not right up Slade's alley. I fail to see why Slade isn't playing VF5 online, lemme guess "the delay will make me lose a match, so i'll beat up on my little brother!"




ROFLMAO!!! This gibberish from the masked monkey, a guy who consistently panned every last ps2 game made, who cares about variety, they all suck, you name a ps2 game, TMG told you it sucked. Everything sucked on the ps2, now all of a sudden, this dipstick is defending his purchases of DDR and Naruto when he's slammed mercilessly MGS, Onimusha, Silent Hill, GT, and other high profile franchises on the ps2. This is just too effin funny. What a hypocritical douche to the power of infinity.

I'm sorry, isn't this exactly what ps2 owners have been screaming at this idiot for how many years, "If you have a PS2 and cannot find a diverse line-up of games it is simply because you won't allow yourself to enjoy the system."

The irony is brutal.

[Glockstar]

Why the hell would MS care about the HD wars? Enough to be in a "stunned silence?" What they were so caught up that their HD DVD add on won't sell anymore that they couldn't say anything about the software lineup for 2008, nothing? Surely you jest.

It doesn't matter what state of mind you're in if you've got a software lineup you'd be talking about it!

It's the CES not E3 numbnut. None of the Big 3 were talking about their game lineups! There was hardly any game talk at all. CES is about hardware.

And if you know that, and if you were paying any attention to the rumors floating around in the days leading up to the CES then you'd understand "stunned silence". Come on, use your head.

[Glockstar]

Did just that, here's the top ten from Gamerankings by percentile:

1. The Orange Box X360 EA Games 50 9.1 96.136%
2. BioShock X360 2K Games 87 9.1 95.299%
3. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare X360 Activision 66 8.8 94.060%
4. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion X360 2K Games 102 9.2 94.012%
5. Gears of War X360 Microsoft Game Studios 109 8.7 93.789%
6. Halo 3 X360 Microsoft Game Studios 84 8.5 93.313%
7. Rock Band X360 MTV Games 47 8.2 93.095%
8. Guitar Hero II X360 RedOctane 58 8.1 92.064%
9. Mass Effect X360 Microsoft Game Studios 64 9.1 90.956%
10. Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter X360 Ubisoft 88 8.7 90.540%

Apart from Gears, I wouldn't buy any of those games. BTW, the irony of my having bought Bioshock is not lost on me. I bought into the hype.


Apparently, it's not just me that acknowledges this issue. What you and the Xbot contingent don't get is that the FPS games on the 360 are its premiere titles. Those games are what score high and what, for the most part, sell the system. Now, you can sit there and list off a smattering of titles across the genres which aren't even all that great but you would miss the point completely. What people like me are not content with is just that, the low ratio of games in other genres. Variety isn't just handing us one or two titles in a particular genre like you guys seem to think. As for this next bit:


I acknowledge that you see variety there. It's the same as when I say DMC, Onimusha, Ninja Gaiden, God Hand and God of War are all different from each other. Now most only see those games as hack and slash and nothing more, nothing less. Well, this is the same thing here with me. The core mechanic of those games is the same, the FP view and I won't look past that.

Anyway, about Live Arcade. I don't acknowledge it. I left 16 bit gaming behind ages ago.

Exactly. If I built a pyramid of nutrition based on the games that nourished me vs. the 360 library, I'd starve to death.

I might pick up a FPS now and then but a variety of FPS means little to me (other than there may be 1 or 2 I like), just like a variety of JRPGs mean little to others. It's like saying you can have meat served 50 different ways and you're a vegetarian.

It looks like you guys get it.

:thumbsup:

But why do you insist on bashing the 360 at every turn? How can you do that; how can you say what you say, and not say anything about the PS3 and the Wii, or the state of their libraries?!


Tashi says he'd die of malnutrition if he lived strictly off of a 360 diet. But what, like you wouldn't if you had a Wii? Like you aren't starving with your PS3?! You just said you like JRPG's Tashi (like we didn't already know that), well how are the Sony and Nintendo consoles feeding you? Come on, say it; be honest.


As for you slade, saying you "bought into the hype of BioShock", tried it out but didn't like it; and that you won't even give Xbox Live Arcade a try... man, I don't even know what to say to that... :( For the life of me, I can't understand it. I can tell you it makes me feel sad though. Because, well, God I just think you're really missing out!

What about Portal? That's the must-play game of the century, as far as I'm concerned. I don't care who you are or what you like. You give that one a try, and if you don't like that one... then... well... I don't know.... I just guess that'd be it...


One last thing: I do get that FPS games are the 360's bread and butter, slade. But I also get that that's what people want. People love FPS's. I love FPS's. You guys make it out to be, like, a bad thing. But you guys are weird. I don't mean to sound like a jackazz here, but your tastes in games is... not normal. Surely you know that?

[T.Tashi]

It looks like you guys get it.

:thumbsup:

But why do you insist on bashing the 360 at every turn? How can you do that; how can you say what you say, and not say anything about the PS3 and the Wii, or the state of their libraries?!


Tashi says he'd die of malnutrition if he lived strictly off of a 360 diet. But what, like you wouldn't if you had a Wii? Like you aren't starving with your PS3?! You just said you like JRPG's Tashi (like we didn't already know that), well how are the Sony and Nintendo consoles feeding you? Come on, say it; be honest.


As for you slade, saying you "bought into the hype of BioShock", tried it out but didn't like it; and that you won't even give Xbox Live Arcade a try... man, I don't even know what to say to that... :( For the life of me, I can't understand it. I can tell you it makes me feel sad though. Because, well, God I just think you're really missing out!

What about Portal? That's the must-play game of the century, as far as I'm concerned. I don't care who you are or what you like. You give that one a try, and if you don't like that one... then... well... I don't know.... I just guess that'd be it...


One last thing: I do get that FPS games are the 360's bread and butter, slade. But I also get that that's what people want. People love FPS's. I love FPS's. You guys make it out to be, like, a bad thing. But you guys are weird. I don't mean to sound like a jackazz here, but your tastes in games is... not normal. Surely you know that?

LOL! What's normal?:p I actually take a little pride in the fact that my taste is a little off the beaten path.

But yeah rpgs are lackig on the PS3. RPG support on the PS1 sucked early on as did rpg support for PS2. I was prepared for that. RPG support always sucks early on. The issue with Xbox is it sucked for 4 years and after 2 years it ain't that hot in the 360 either. I played KotOR and Jade Empire when I was living with my roommate who had an Xbox. If that was all I had access to, I'd play them (dunno about finishing them) but I really didn't feel like I was missing anything. I'm not a big Star Wars (or Bioware) fan anyway. I wouldn't trade that handful of rpgs for the PS2's library which included first person games like King's Field (that game is no punk) hack-slash like Norrath, strategy, online and dozens on dozens of traditional Jrpgs.

In the meantime I still have backward compatibility with PS2 plus the PSP and DS. Currently I'm actually enjoying Enchanted Arms. It's way better than reviews lead me to believe, even with the bad script, cheesy VO and unconventional battle system. I still dig it. The battles are hard and the strategy deep and the overall story is pretty good. But this is what I have to look forward to in '08 that's not available on Xbox.

Disgea
White Knight
FFXIII
FF Versus XIII
Battle Field Valkyrie (This game looks freakin' awesome! Anime haters stay away)

Action Adenture includes

The Agency
Metal Gear
Heavy Rain
Imfamous
Yazuka

Multiplats
GTA4
Fallout 3

Sony buried me neck deep in rpgs for 2 generations. I've no reason to think any differently this time around.

The bottom line for me is, the Xbox 360 line up is lopsided because western development across the board is lopsided quite honestly. A ton of FPS is great if that's your thing. The Playstations allowed me to wallow in my genre to my heart's content and dabble in online and those genres at the top of my food pyramid when I felt like it. Honestly though if I wanted to really dabble in the FPS genre, I'd spend a few hundred upgrading my graphics card on my PC. A console is not a necessity when it comes to FPS. With the Xbox360, I have no such option. In fact it's exactly the other way around which is probably great for gamers who like the majority of their games western and or in first person.

[Tappy_Tibbons]

Splinter Cell Solid 4 is not the PS3's savior...sorry.

[T.Tashi]

I just looked at Gamespot and counting all the rpgs, the Xbox360 does have quite a few. Ten to be exact including KUF but not counting the other stuff coming this year. Also that's counting the 2 versions of Oblivion. Lost Odyssey lands next month. The PS3 currently has 4. So I can acknowledge that's probably more than enough for most gamers. Apparently MS is doing a better job of attempting to round out their library than I thought.

[NEO-360]

Actually, PS2 at 1 year old had twice the library of either system at the moment. If given the choice right now between these three platforms, I'd immediately step through the time vortex that takes me back to 2001.

Sure it was. Starting off the year was over a dozen Dreamcast ports to hold up the PS2's rather lukewarm librairy. Launch. SSX, Madden, and Tekken Tag was the shining stars on its roster. The rest? Mediocre at best.

Compare that to the Dreamcast's launch titles:Sonic Adventure, NFL2K, Soul Calibur, House Of The Dead, Powerstone, Mortal Kombat Gold, Ready To Rumble. In the DC's first year we saw games ranging from Marvel Vs. Capcom to Resident Evil:Code Veronica. The PS2 didnt see a Resident Evil game for years.

Getting back to the thread here what happened in CES truly gave no indication that the Xbox is in for a rough year for 2008. After seeing all of the huge software sales I think its safe to say that Sony supporters truly know that the 360's titles are drawfing PS3 titles in terms of software sales and multiplatform titles. Truly. 2008 is going to be no different. 2008 is going to see alot of suprises on both sides of the fence.

However fear not milkdrinkers the PS3 will have some winners. But dont creme your jeans just yet. So far there hasnt been a PS3 game to sell as well as anything on the 360 like Halo or Bioshock or Mass Effect or Gears Of War. When that finally happens then you guys can rejoice. Till then you guys are basically talking out of the side of your pie-holes.:p

[ThaMaskedGamer]

<b>Sure it was. Starting off the year was over a dozen Dreamcast ports to hold up the PS2's rather lukewarm librairy. Launch. SSX, Madden, and Tekken Tag was the shining stars on its roster. The rest? Mediocre at best.</b>

Compare that to the Dreamcast's launch titles:Sonic Adventure, NFL2K, Soul Calibur, House Of The Dead, Powerstone, Mortal Kombat Gold, Ready To Rumble. In the DC's first year we saw games ranging from Marvel Vs. Capcom to Resident Evil:Code Veronica. The PS2 didnt see a Resident Evil game for years.

Getting back to the thread here what happened in CES truly gave no indication that the Xbox is in for a rough year for 2008. After seeing all of the huge software sales I think its safe to say that Sony supporters truly know that the 360's titles are drawfing PS3 titles in terms of software sales and multiplatform titles. Truly. 2008 is going to be no different. 2008 is going to see alot of suprises on both sides of the fence.

However fear not milkdrinkers the PS3 will have some winners. But dont creme your jeans just yet. So far there hasnt been a PS3 game to sell as well as anything on the 360 like Halo or Bioshock or Mass Effect or Gears Of War. When that finally happens then you guys can rejoice. Till then you guys are basically talking out of the side of your pie-holes.:p

Yup, good post! The PS2's first year is actually what made me decide to not get a PS2, I was like Dreamcast is better! Just like PS3s first year almost made me not get it, hopefully though the PS3 will pull through. Right now it truly is a Blu-ray movie player though, I don't have a game to play on it:(

[slade]

Heh, PS2's first year had Tekken Tag, Onimusha, Devil May Cry, Dynasty Warriors 2, Kessen, Final Fantasy X, MGS2, Jak and Daxter, Ratchet and Clank, Gran Turismo 3, Twisted Metal Black, Red Faction, Timesplitters, (insert generic sports games from EA) Grand Theft Auto 3, among a boat load of other titles. There was something for pretty much everyone that first year.

But why do you insist on bashing the 360 at every turn? How can you do that; how can you say what you say, and not say anything about the PS3 and the Wii, or the state of their libraries?

I did that in this thread. I've done that in a few other threads. It's not just my 360 I'm disappointed in, it's also my PS3 and this whole gen in particular. Anyway, already addressed those points. 2008 seems better but MS with their year long headstart and already two years into this gen have a woefully inadequate library.

[thelastword]

Yup, good post! The PS2's first year is actually what made me decide to not get a PS2, I was like Dreamcast is better! Just like PS3s first year almost made me not get it, hopefully though the PS3 will pull through. Right now it truly is a Blu-ray movie player though, I don't have a game to play on it:(You bought a PS3 and there's no games to play....WOW! I guess that's why it's moved 9 million units thus far..no games....Hey! I heard that the XBOX 360 has so many games to play though, people are basically drowning in all these great games. I don't know, some MaskedGamer guy told me, so tell me....Why did you buy a PS3 with no games to play, when the XBOX 360 has such an overload of great games? I'm sure it had a several triple AAA's released last week alone....:rolleyes: What's up...?

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Heh, PS2's first year had Tekken Tag, Onimusha, Devil May Cry, Dynasty Warriors 2, Kessen, Final Fantasy X, MGS2, Jak and Daxter, Ratchet and Clank, Gran Turismo 3, Twisted Metal Black, Red Faction, Timesplitters, (insert generic sports games from EA) Grand Theft Auto 3, among a boat load of other titles. There was something for pretty much everyone that first year.



I did that in this thread. I've done that in a few other threads. It's not just my 360 I'm disappointed in, it's also my PS3 and this whole gen in particular. Anyway, already addressed those points. 2008 seems better but MS with their year long headstart and already two years into this gen have a woefully inadequate library.

I thought MGS2, GT3, GTA3 and some of those other games came along at the beginning of the second year to blunt the release of the XBOX. I think most people pretty much count these as 2nd year games, and pretty much the pinnacle of the PS2's existence, talking about shooting your wad early!

Anyway, sorry I brought it up. Last thing I wanna do is start a conversation about how good the PS2 was(wasn't).

[ThaMaskedGamer]

You bought a PS3 and there's no games to play....WOW! I guess that's why it's moved 9 million units thus far..no games....Hey! I heard that the XBOX 360 has so many games to play though, people are basically drowning in all these great games. I don't know, some MaskedGamer guy told me, so tell me....Why did you buy a PS3 with no games to play, when the XBOX 360 has such an overload of great games? I'm sure it had a several triple AAA's released last week alone....:rolleyes: What's up...?

I bought the console based on hope and the blu-ray player. While the PS2 didn't have any tech or features comparable to the XBOX, the PS3 does. So i'm set-up to play the best exclusives on each system and I have an HD source on each of my HD TVs.

Its interesting too, even with the demise of HD-DVD, the 360 due to LIVE is still a great HD movie player! Especially since Netflix is starting to get really stingy with the good movies! It seems like for every recent blockbuster they must have like 5 copies in HD that they distribute throughout the country. They have been getting so bad I had to clear out all the crappy movies in my queue because that is all they would send. I reduced my queue down to about 30 movies all in HD-DVD or Blu-ray, just to give them no choice, now i'm very interested to see what they will send since all of these movies have a very long wait. Hell, i'm still waiting for Transformers on HD-DVD!

[slade]

I thought MGS2, GT3, GTA3 and some of those other games came along at the beginning of the second year to blunt the release of the XBOX. I think most people pretty much count these as 2nd year games, and pretty much the pinnacle of the PS2's existence, talking about shooting your wad early!

You can add two additional months and it would cover the time period. It's not that big a difference. You can do the same to the 360 and it would come up extremely short. Obviously though because now we're in its third year and it still has such gaping holes in its library.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

You can add two additional months and it would cover the time period. It's not that big a difference. You can do the same to the 360 and it would come up extremely short. Obviously though because now we're in its third year and it still has such gaping holes in its library.

Oh yeah, huge!:rolleyes:

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

I bought the console based on hope and the blu-ray player. While the PS2 didn't have any tech or features comparable to the XBOX, the PS3 does. So i'm set-up to play the best exclusives on each system and I have an HD source on each of my HD TVs.

Its interesting too, even with the demise of HD-DVD, the 360 due to LIVE is still a great HD movie player! Especially since Netflix is starting to get really stingy with the good movies! It seems like for every recent blockbuster they must have like 5 copies in HD that they distribute throughout the country. They have been getting so bad I had to clear out all the crappy movies in my queue because that is all they would send. I reduced my queue down to about 30 movies all in HD-DVD or Blu-ray, just to give them no choice, now i'm very interested to see what they will send since all of these movies have a very long wait. Hell, i'm still waiting for Transformers on HD-DVD!

You know I'm surprised how I've completely 180'd on Digital downloads of movies. At first I was damn that's dumb but now I love it especially movies in HD that aren't on Blu Ray. I watched Transformer in HD via Marketplace I wish they had the Bourne Supremacy but I broke down and bought that on DVD. I'm wonder if Sony will ever really get behind downloadable movies on PSN. Because it may hurt Blu Ray a bit so maybe they really aren't to quick to go there like MS is.

[slade]

Oh yeah, huge!:rolleyes:

Two years after the fact, pick me out a game on the 360 like Onimusha. No Dynasty Warriors or other general crap like Bullet Witch please. As you make your distinctions for FPS's, I make them for this genre.

[Mochan]

Digital downloads rule. Although I only do piracy here, having done it for the past 5 years or so I can say they are so convenient, and within the past couple of years the quality actually tends to be better than what you get on DVD. And this is just from amateur sources for no gain, and not professional releases.

Once it really takes off as a legitimate part of the industry the potential is far better than the traditional physical media.

[silversparrow]

Once it really takes off as a legitimate part of the industry the potential is far better than the traditional physical media.

I can see VOD replacing rental stores. The convenience of renting movies from your couch can't be beat in this department. Physical media will remain the primary means of purchasing movies for a long time though. Home theatre buffs will want the best picture and sound quality they can get (Blu-ray), while the regular crowd will want movies in a format they can easily lend out to family and friends (VOD is currently limited in this regard).

[Jaa Phaanom]

I wish they would give you access to downloadable versions of when you buy physical media. I like collecting stuff so I just like actually having something physical. However, I like the convenience of being able to watch a movie without having to go through my collection and find the disc (I probably should alphabetize my collection). But would it be possible to get the quality of a Blu-Ray/HD-DVD movie via a downloaded version?

[Mochan]

Probably not. I've downloaded HQ rips of HD-DVDs (they clock in at about 4GBs for an average length movie) and the quality is great but there is compression going on there and that will mean more artifacts compared to the actual HD DVD or Blueray.

I doubt they would let you download from buying the disks unless they up the price a bit, because bandwidth is still not unlimited and someone has to pay for the bandwidth you use to download the stuff, and 4GBs is no small download even in this day and age.

[silversparrow]

But would it be possible to get the quality of a Blu-Ray/HD-DVD movie via a downloaded version?

It's possible in the future when streaming and bandwidth are improved, but right now downloadable movies and TV shows are in a highly compressed format which prevent them from being the same quality as either Blu-ray or HD-DVD.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

Starswars Ep 3 in HI Def on demand is still the best looking Hi def movie I've seen so far. Transformer also looked as good as a blu ray and I rented that in Hi def off live market place.