Japanese developer says Japan falling behind

[T.Tashi]

Akira Yamaoka is the music director for Silent Hill 5, which is being developed by an American developer. Questions about that lead to...

What is it like working with an American team for Silent Hill 5? Is it different from having a team in-house with you?

AY: It's completely different working with an American team. There are of course advantages and disadvantages, but overall, I'm really impressed with the American staff and their technology. Their graphical and technical ability is amazing. There's a huge gap, actually. They're very advanced. I'm Japanese, and I think this is not just with Silent Hill but with the whole of the industry -- I look at what American developers are doing and I think wow... Japan is in trouble.

That's interesting, because I've been noticing this for a while. Technology in games in Japan is falling very far behind. Usually I have to ask people if they think so, but you said it without prompting. Why do you think it is? Is there just not enough communication between companies, and sharing of technical know-how?

AY: There are two reasons I think. One is that the development environment in Japan is divided into developers and publishers. Publishers have to create a game in a short amount of time at low cost, and it's a lot of pressure on them in that respect, and they pass that on to the developers. So basically it has to be done as quickly and cheaply as possible. And the people doing this are getting old like me. And tired! And the salary isn't that great.

So you've got pressure on these people to perform like they did when they were 20, and it's just not possible. I look at a game magazine, and I see interviews with the "important creators," like Mr. Sakaguchi. He's a great game creator, but he's not young. And I don't see many young game creators in Japan. Then I look at the west, and I see all these young guys coming up so fast, it's just amazing.

The second reason is that... well for example, on another project [we] were in development for a while, and we realized that we needed a new driver for some graphics program. That happens of course. So we looked around for it, and we found it, OK. Same maker, same everything, should be fine right? But the problem is they're all in English. So we get this thing and we have to localize it into Japanese.

So we don't have a lot of people who can understand English deeply enough for something like that, so that reduces speed. And while we're waiting for that, we're already a step behind everyone else who can understand it intuitively. This sort of thing builds up, and we just fall further behind. I mean of course we can understand it once we know what it says, but this falling behind really affects the quality of what we can do. So that's the second big problem.

To that point, it seems like in Japan, every company has the same problem, but they're all working on it separately by themselves. Here, we have people using the same engine, and if they're using the same engine, they'll compare ideas and problems and fixes and things like that. That's my perception of one of the problems.

AY: Definitely, that's a big one. Like back in the Famicom days, people didn't want other companies to see what they were doing to maximize the console. And it's not even company to company, even the same company with two different projects, those two teams won't share driver research or resources like I was talking about before.

That's funny, because that's another one of the things that I thought was true. I've heard of other companies where two teams are working on the same type of game, but they didn't share an engine or assets or anything. Same company, two similar games, totally different tools. I've been feeling as though that is the reason why next-gen games are not taking off in Japan, because Japanese technology has not made it easy for Japanese game creators to make games for their own market.

AY: Yes, that's absolutely true. There really aren't people who can use the tools. The people who are starting to learn this stuff in Japan are still rather green too, so they can't even meet the levels we need to get to.

[Glockstar]

I've been saying this for years! The Japs (Japanese game makers) are cheap, and lazy.

Oh people like slade and folken will argue otherwise. But they're cheap and lazy gameplayers, so of course they'll say what they say.

[Gadfly2317]

It's annoying to see, because I like the eye-candy I'm seeing in western games, but I still can't help wonder what something like Katamari Damacy could really be like if it pushed the graphical envelope at least a little.

I also wonder about Nintendo in all this, if they work internally different than what the fellow in this interview is talking about. And I wonder how and why it is Nintendo is still able to take an old formula and make the highest scoring game in a decade with Mario Galaxy. What is that? Is it experienced older designers, are they tapping new talent too? In terms of sheer genius design, the two games this year that have impressed me most are Super Paper Mario, and Super Mario Galaxy. As far as sheer, brilliant game design, Nintendo, a Japanese comapny, still is a world class leader.

I'd really love to read more how Nintendo functions and creates.

This was a good interview.

Are top Japanese developers really that far behind the west graphically; are the next Gran Turismo and Final Fantasy not going to blow minds?

[silversparrow]

With the exception of Nintendo, the Japanese game industry has stagnated pretty badly these past few years. The problem is that they're not pushing the envelope nearly as much as their Western counterparts, who have leaped far ahead in terms of graphics, AI, non-linearity, production values, online options, etc.

Up until the PS1/N64 era, the vast majority of the games I owned were Japanese developed. Now days it's Western developed games that are getting the bulk of my play time. And when I look at the future lineup of all 3 consoles, I see even less Japanese games I'm interested in.

I still have my eye on a few titles though like MGS4 or the next Team Ico project.

[Mochan]

It's true, just like Silver Sparrow, just ten years ago the games I was playing were like 80% of the time on consoles, 20% on PC. Nowadays it's the opposite. The graphical divide is huge and probably the reason why my Japanese gaming is relegated to the PSP and DS these days whereas my "serious" gaming is on the PC. Aside from Culdcept, I'm basically not even touching my PS2 anymore.

[slade]

Let me be the one voice of dissent and say that thankgod this year is almost over. I don't think I have ever been as disappointed by two systems as I am right now with the PS3 and 360 and the vast majority of blame I lay on the feet of Western game designers with their trillion FPS's, drecky RPG's and lame artstyle. The Japanese aren't completely free of blame though. Because they were so reluctant to jump onboard next gen, the reason in my next paragraph, I've had to endure some really crappy Western games like Bioshock. Hell, I was even contemplating getting Halo 3. Thankfully, Japanese developers seem to be a bit more focused now and 2008 looks to be a good year.

Anyway, Yamaoka is right about how screwed the Japanese are. Their lack of focus may be because development in Japan is segmented and developers really do not share any resources amongst each other. On the other hand, look at the West with its billion games running on Unreal Engine 3. The issue here is that development in Japan is in trouble because of the rising costs of game development. If the Japanese stick to the old methods of creating a new engine for each new game they develop, then they are in trouble. As of this moment, I know of only one big developer to sidestep this issue and that is Capcom. They've created their own in house engine and so far it has been a big success for them.

[ceevee]

Let me be the one voice of dissent and say that thankgod this year is almost over. I don't think I have ever been as disappointed by two systems as I am right now with the PS3 and 360 and the vast majority of blame I lay on the feet of Western game designers with their trillion FPS's, drecky RPG's and lame artstyle.


i concur. western designers have all the tools in the world with the greatest scope in the world. but without vision and a story to tell, something that prehistoric Japs still do on the ds and psp, we'll be fed more generic FPS and 'open-ended' but direction-less emotionally inert RPGs in 2008, 2009, 2010..

[T.Tashi]

i concur. western designers have all the tools in the world with the greatest scope in the world. but without vision and a story to tell, something that prehistoric Japs still do on the ds and psp, we'll be fed more generic FPS and 'open-ended' but direction-less emotionally inert RPGs in 2008, 2009, 2010..

I have to agree with Slade and Ceevee. Despite the technological edge, western devs are hardly saviors in comparison.

But in their defense, I will say at least we've seen quite a few new IPs from western devs in 2007 that do use the hardware, while Japanese devs have absolutely killed some pedigree IPs, namely Lunar and the Mana series. I can only imagine that titles like these get handed to the lowest bidding developer.

But shooting the sh*t outta stuff in first and third person is the flavor of the month. Even an rpg like Mass Effect is a shooter at its core. Here's to some diversity in 2008.

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

I thought Japan was falling behind last gen, right around the time Splinter Cell and GTA:Vice City came out in 2002. Either that, or the fact that my gaming expectations changed dramatically after that year.

Still, they are definitely lagging behind, and aside from a couple of devs/publishers, there's no chance of them catching back up. Not with me, anyway.

[Cuddly Knife]

I'm bummed. I like Japan-flavored games more than Western.

[T.Tashi]

I'm bummed. I like Japan-flavored games more than Western.

Yep, me too. Except for the action rpgs. I definitely prefer those Western.

[Mochan]

I personally never felt that Japan was falling behind last gen. In tech, yes but as ceevee and Slade pointed out, tech isn't the only thing that counts. I'm playing mostly on my PC today, with mostly Western games, but just like Cuddly I at heart prefer Japan-flavored games to Western. The emotional charge is stronger and the Japanese tend to be able to do a hell of a lot more with limited tech in terms of art design and story-telling.

It's just that this gen so far Japanese games aren't really doing much on the next gen consoles -- pretty much why I don't have one yet. The strongest Japanese game presence so far is on the Wii, whereas the PS3 and the 360 just aren't there yet. That's why my first next gen console purchase is likely to be the Wii (as I find myself saying over and over). For my Western fix, the PC does just fine. The place to get Japanese games right now is on the handhelds, it seems.

[slade]

The Japanese publisher's are really dragging their feet when it comes to actively supporting a console. It's not like it was with PS2 when everybody knew that it was the sure fire bet. They were probably expecting the same performance from PS3 and yet the Wii came out of nowhere and messed up everybody's plans. However, now after two years in this so called HD era, I just want them to pick a platform and throw their support behind it. I'm not averse to getting the Wii if the support is there.

[Mochan]

Yes, it seems the Japanese publishers were all expecting to go with the PS3, however the Wii came in and made everyone think twice, and add to that MS's aggressive Japanese push for the 360 and the PS3 just got double-teamed. But yes just get behind one platform already so I can decide which next-gen console to get first.

[silversparrow]

Looking at the Wii (http://www.japan-gamecharts.com/wii.php) and PS3 (http://www.japan-gamecharts.com/ps3.php) bestsellers in Japan, it's pretty clear that Japanese devs, aside from Nintendo, are struggling in their own homeland.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

I've been saying this for years. It is painfully evident. Each new technological trend they have unwillingly adopted it, be it 3D, physics, AI, internet gaming etc. If it was up to them, we'd still be playing 2D games. I mean we'd still be using cartridges if Nintendo had their druthers. The industry is headed for a clear fork in the road. Nintendo has opened a pathway to low-tech simple games oriented toward casual mainstream gamers but the high tech arena will be dominated by western developed games. If the Japanese publishers want to stay relevant they will need to integrate with western talent more and more.

I'm looking forward to a lot of the big games like DMC, NG2 and RE5, but to be honest, I think they are going to largely be failures. Graphically they look impressive but how superficial is the gameplay? I think the Japanese developers struggle with making good games because they struggle with things like good physics and AI and online gaming. So their games usually end up lacking depth. And they are so far behind in those areas, the only way they can catch up is to buy up western talent. They've got good ideas and creativity, but these aren't novels.

[Mochan]

Each new technological trend they have unwillingly adopted it, be it 3D, physics, AI, internet gaming etc.If it was up to them, we'd still be playing 2D games. I mean we'd still be using cartridges if Nintendo had their druthers.


Oh really? JRPGs were doing 3D in 1997 with FF7 when the West was still doing crappy 2D sprites in Baldur's Gate in 1998.

Who was it that paved the way for consoles to use optical media? It was SONY, a Japanese company.

Japan has been playing MMORPGs since the new millenium, XBots don't even play MMORPGs except for FF11 which, oh, XBots don't play anyway.


Stop talking crap I agree the Japanese devs are behind the Western Devs today but give credit where it's due.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

<b>Who was it that paved the way for consoles to use optical media? It was SONY, a Japanese company. </b>Idiot I said if it was up to Nintendo we'd still be using cartridges.
<b>
Japan has been playing MMORPGs since the new millenium, XBots don't even play MMORPGs except for FF11 which, oh, XBots don't play anyway. </b>Fool online games have been around since the early 90's.

<b>
Stop talking crap I agree the Japanese devs are behind the Western Devs today but give credit where it's due.</b> Oh so Japanese developers are to credit for 3D gaming, optical media for games, and online gaming. Who knew?

[silversparrow]

TMG, Mochan is right. You have to give the Japanese more credit.

Back in '96, Nintendo was pushing 3D gameplay pretty hard with the N64. Many of the features and concepts introduced with that console have found their way in to the design of the PS consoles, the first Xbox, and the 360.

And up until the time FF7 came out, all Western RPGs were 2D isometric.

[thelastword]

Japanese way behind? I don't think so, this is way overstated, catching up to the use of shaders? perhaps, but everytime you hear people talk about Japan or whatever else being way behind and exxagerate it a million fold it reeks of plain ol' ignorance.

I remember when folk said that Sony was way behind on LIVE and it would take them years to catch up, but then sony launched, and in a year's space it has a bevy of the best online experiences out there on consoles (RFOM,WARHAWK,UT3,MSTORM). Just drawing a reference here, but the question remains, Is Japan really that far behind? and has their gaming offerings really proven shallow and way below the offerings of the west? I don't think so, at all.

Yamaoka bases his take primarily on the graphical prowess of the regions and although I think the west is ahead atm, I don't think it's as a result of lazy jap devs or lack of ability or any thing of that sort, I believe it's because Japanese devs have not transitioned as quickly as americans to the next gen gaming era. Why? because the lower end hardware is still giving them solid returns on their investment and when I say lower end, that includes the Wii as well as the PS2.

What I think is happening, is that Japanese devs are gaining some profit from PS2 and Wii productions right now, and are directing that profit into their real next gen HD efforts. These guys are now investing and spending time developing their next gen engines and fleshing out the gameplay as we speak. If anyone takes a peak, we have not even seen a major release from a Japanese heavy hitter, but the bits we have seen and previewed is damn nigh incredible technically, so it bodes really well for the eventual onslaught of releases and preview code from the best Japanese coders.

What we have seen from Poliphony Digital is amazing technically, 16 cars onscreen at 1080p, Hdr lighting, 60fps. Point is, no western dev comes close to delivering on such an ambitious racer, with such amazing visuals and resolution. Another Jap dev, Gaming republic, yes, Genji is not the greatest of games, but it is an amazing game graphically, with probably the best IQ on consoles, there's not a jaggie in Genji, Hdr lighting, amazing textures and 8x aniso, and that was from a Jap dev at launch, so this whole talk of being way behind is bollocks. As I've said, the Japanese are just cooking their game engines and they'll be ready to roll come 2008 in huge fashion.

Can anybody deny the graphical prowess, physics and depth of the next gen MGS4. How about the CG look and amazing art of FF13 and VERSUS, how about titles like RE5 which looks amazing graphically? There's no need to say these games are far off, great titles take time to cook and they're now in the oven, you can't do all the gaming of your lifetime in one year. There's White Knight Story which releases early 08 as well as HotShots 5 and both are amazing looking games with online components. There's Tekken 6 and SC4 coming out next year, show me the western fighters that look as good farless are as good, VF5 was released from a Japanese Dev very early on and it's the best looking and playing next gen fighter out there, so if we break it down it just gets silly.

I think the problem stems from having a year of so many highly acclaimed shooters, people automatically associate gaming to just FPS. Why is the West in the limelight this year? Halo3, Cod4, Bioshock, UT3, MOH, OB, MassEffect, all fp style games, and nobody is denying that these games are fun experiences to many, but again the focus is laid heavily in one genre. Even then, most of these fps brings nothing new to the table perse, except UT3, which takes the most revolutionary step in the console space this gen, (mod support), but it's only one title.

So when people talk about the Japanese being way behind, they have to asess all these points, especially on account of what western devs really bring to the table as it relates to variety. I mean we want to talk about Mass Effect, but it's a UE3 based game from Bioware, Japanese are not going to use UE3 on a large scale, as it stands, support for UE3 has been iffy even to Western Devs, how much more troublesome would it have been, if the Japanese took hold of UE3 at large, when the language barrier is already a major sore point in the UE3 package.

So many of these western devs simply rely on the work of one Middleware company, that doesn't make them more advanced than Japanese Devs. If you follow, Epic alone has made the best use of their tools and in the case with UT3 (with some major help from Sony), so this whole Western Devs are ahead is paper thin bs. All UE3 games outside of Epic had issues at retail, and it's only getting better now. Mass Effect though, the latest UE3 game, has an abysmal framerate with tearing and lockdowns out of it's Wazoo, a total nightmare in terms of performance. Splinter Cell on the PS3 runs much better than this, but surely it's a Bioware game, so it must be reviewed 90% and above. Crazy, but we simply cant praise western devs for dung like that, and claim that they're superior.

To be honest, I'm glad that Square, Poliphony, Kojipro and the likes of Fumito Ueda (of SOTC & ICO fame) are cooking their engines. We want a real step forward on all counts, huge vistas, unflinching performance, great gameplay, physics and animation.

This is what next gen is about, and boy, though this year was rock solid, even outside of the flood of shooters, with fun titles like MSTORM, WARHAWK, HSWORD, RATCHET and of course the best release for the year UNCHARTED. It's really next year that is going to be bonkers as it relates to gaming, why? because the Japanese Devs will be here to play.

[slade]

I'm looking forward to a lot of the big games like DMC, NG2 and RE5.

If I were you, I'd steer clear of those games. You'd probably end up spamming the guns in DMC, wondering where the strategic combat is and why the guns are doing so little damage. And then we'd have to listen to you whine about yet another game you didn't have the mental capabilities to play.

[Mochan]

Word, the reason I say Japanese are behind is simply as you said: they didn't release anything of note this year on the next gen systems. Compared to the Western devs pouring out FPS after FPS and then some. They are clearly behind right now. I hope they catch up next year.

[Cuddly Knife]

Capcom is releasing plenty for next-gen, you all just aren't playing the games. Personally, I think Capcom is kicking some ass this gen.

And whouldathunk that word would only mention PS3 games.:rolleyes:

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

The guy is hilarous.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

As far as technology they are behind (the Japanese) When you look at all the major graphics pionneers are in the West Nvidia, ATi, MS (Direct X) Looking at movies theres Lucas arts, Pixar, Weta holywood in General can Japan really compete???

But what's more disturbing is how archaic they are in game designs seriously what was the last innovation in the fighting game genre VF with 3D???

Is there one decent open world game out of Japan from GTA , Mercenaires, to Crackdown the genre is damn near over saturated.

Racing arcade racers you have Ridge Racer vs Burnout where is the innovation. GTA V wont have all the features Forza on the Xbox has but it'll be prettier. Outside of Nintendo the biggest innovation in gameplay the Japanese have given us is Survivor Horror but then again that was started in the West with alone in the dark. They aren't even ripping off western ideas and perfecting them like they do in other industries.

There pacing in story telling is old and outdated. A bunch of Eastern devs talk about how great the story was presented in Half life about how it didn't take you out the game. But yet the still cut scene you to death.

And with the rise of God of War they are losing there stranglehold on the 3rd person action genre.

But the difference is Nintendo who continues to innovate who at the drop of the hat seem able to create new genre's and ways of play. The rest of Japan however seems severly stagnant. And that's why the market there is changing when it's growing everywhere else. Lack of innovation. As much as we complaine about too many FPS's I'm sure to them there are too many RPG's (and not enough Fps???)

[ThaMaskedGamer]

TMG, Mochan is right. You have to give the Japanese more credit.

Back in '96, Nintendo was pushing 3D gameplay pretty hard with the N64. Many of the features and concepts introduced with that console have found their way in to the design of the PS consoles, the first Xbox, and the 360.

And up until the time FF7 came out, all Western RPGs were 2D isometric.

Certainly anything going on in the console arena in the 90s you have to give the Japanese companies credit for, and that's by default, they were the only players of note in that space. But as for giving them credit for the take-off of 3D gaming in the 90s and the massive explosion of the technology, i'm sorry I believe that was driven by western pc market. And I don't think anything related to the <b>graphical performance</b> of the first XBOX was due to the influence of the N64. We all know the first XBOX was a PC turned game machine, based off of Wintel and a Nvidia graphics card. Nintendo wasn't even dreaming about anything like that.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Japanese way behind?

To be honest, I'm glad that Square, Poliphony, Kojipro and the likes of Fumito Ueda (of SOTC & ICO fame) are cooking their engines. We want a real step forward on all counts, huge vistas, unflinching performance, great gameplay, physics and animation.

This is what next gen is about, and boy, though this year was rock solid, even outside of the flood of shooters, with fun titles like MSTORM, WARHAWK, HSWORD, RATCHET and of course the best release for the year UNCHARTED. It's really next year that is going to be bonkers as it relates to gaming, why? because the Japanese Devs will be here to play.

LOL @ R&C. Damn son you love Sony. I think your heart is gonna pop their games do start living up to the hype! Best release of the year, Uncharted, that's funny. The game was good, but not nearly that good.

[theWacoKid]

LOL @ R&C. Damn son you love Sony. I think your heart is gonna pop their games do start living up to the hype! Best release of the year, Uncharted, that's funny. The game was good, but not nearly that good.

Says the clown who thinks Kane and Lynch is a good game. Puleasse!!! With your awful wretched taste in games you've got major nerve laughing at anybody else's choices.

[thelastword]

And whouldathunk that word would only mention PS3 games.:rolleyes:Come on Knife, DMC4 is multiplat and was already mentioned in the thread. I agree with you that Capcom is really doing well this gen, I mean graphically LP is a great looking title with some really nice effects, dead rising had a good evolution graphically. DMC4 though, has really shaped up from when we first saw it, and it's currently the best looking action game (soon to be released), not only does it look good, it runs at 60, but even then, DMC4 was already mentioned in the thread so I mentioned RE5 which looks absolutely stunning. So I did praise Capcom, and guess what? all these titles are multiplats, not PS3 exclusive.


So I've been looking at NG2 and boy is it fast, and I like that. So I really applaud the razor sharp quick gameplay, so if there's a reliable 360 in the future, I may pick it up with a copy od NG2 and Banjo Threeie, but this was a debate where the dev was making his distinctions based primarily on graphics. So I certainly couldn't mention NG2 to bolster the Japanese front, because graphically, there are much more impressive action titles coming from Japan and I mean soon (DMC4). NG2 looks rather bland at the momemt, so I really couldn't make a case for it in this debate.

Let's be fair though, how many games are you really anicipating from Japanese devs on the 360? Games that have not been mentioned in this thread. So you see, a predominant PS3 list has nothing to do with bias, it's all about what it is. There are some major heavy hitters coming from Japan in 08, primarily on the PS3.

[Glockstar]

LOL Here we go again.

DMC4 though, has really shaped up from when we first saw it, and it's currently the best looking action game (soon to be released), not only does it look good, it runs at 60...

Really? You know what impresses me most about that? Is that the game does all that... and it's not even out yet! Wow.

:rolleyes:

[thelastword]

LOL @ R&C. Damn son you love Sony. I think your heart is gonna pop their games do start living up to the hype! Best release of the year, Uncharted, that's funny. The game was good, but not nearly that good.Yeah! I'm sure making a case for absolute dung like Kane and Lynch, and saying it's gameplay is better than Uncharted is giving you a tonne of credible miles:rolleyes:, where aiming and trying to get to cover in that game is as awful and convoluting as trying to control the cars in DRIVING EMOTION TYPE-S.

[thelastword]

Really? You know what impresses me most about that? Is that the game does all that... and it's not even out yet! Wow.

:rolleyes:It has been played by a tonne of folk, previewed, hell, people have review copies in their hands as we speak. What is so hard to understand? NG2 on the other hand has not been played by anyone in the media and in the age of screenshots and all these videos of NG2 recently, it's there in your face, both games run at 60, but NG is very vanilla looking.

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

Capcom is releasing plenty for next-gen, you all just aren't playing the games. Personally, I think Capcom is kicking some ass this gen.

There's only two Capcom games that I think are going to be worth playing. 1) DMC4, which I hope ends up being at least decent and 2) Bionic Commando, which actually looks pretty interesting so far, though I have low expectations for it.

Oh, yeah. Dead Rising sucked, and Dead Rising II: Rising to Suck Even More will suck....even more.

[DrunkenThumbmaster]

^^^ LOL.

Not true about DR though.

[Cuddly Knife]

LOL. IMO, Dead Rising has been one of the few great highlights of this gen.

As for BC, I am a little worried about this game. This a game that would make great use out of open-world gameplay, but it looks like it'll be more linear than anything else.

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

I don't think any Capcom developer is capable of making a good open-world game. Just look at...Dead Rising (I keep forgetting you actually liked this game).

I'm curious to see how the other levels turn out. Hopefully, they won't all look like the one in the early videos.

[Tappy_Tibbons]

I never buy Japanese games because I think that, outside of Nintendo, they are generally lower quality product and just so damn stuck in their ways with archaic design choices. They would rather polish crap from the early 90's instead of making something new.

You all know as well as me that if not for Splinter Cell, both RE4 would have had human tank controls and MGS4 would have ended up having static camera angles.

Only EA rehashes games like the Japanese do.

[Tappy_Tibbons]

Last Word if you were such a gaming connoisseur then why would you settle for the PS3 not having a SINGLE game ranked above 89% at metacritic?! NOR PSP GAME!!!

[T.Tashi]

I don't think any Capcom developer is capable of making a good open-world game. Just look at...Dead Rising (I keep forgetting you actually liked this game).

I'm curious to see how the other levels turn out. Hopefully, they won't all look like the one in the early videos.

A sandbox survival horror game (ala GTA) would be sweet. Survival horror has reached something of an impasse with its set paths and claustrophobic environments. Dead Rising touches on some of those elements but it was too goofy for its own good. It reminded more of Dead Alive (Peter Jackson pre-LotR) than anything else.

[thelastword]

Last Word if you were such a gaming connoisseur then why would you settle for the PS3 not having a SINGLE game ranked above 89% at metacritic?! NOR PSP GAME!!!It doesn't? So I guess COD, Oblivion and such are not PS3 games, I see, but I'm sure you're right though. PS3 has no good games :rolleyes:, neither does the PSP, all the GOOOOOD games are on the XBOX 360 and the DS.:rolleyes:

[Tappy_Tibbons]

Ok, so I meant console exclusive. You know what I meant.

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

I never buy Japanese games because I think that, outside of Nintendo, they are generally lower quality product and just so damn stuck in their ways with archaic design choices. They would rather polish crap from the early 90's instead of making something new.

You all know as well as me that if not for Splinter Cell, both RE4 would have had human tank controls and MGS4 would have ended up having static camera angles.

Only EA rehashes games like the Japanese do.

No one wants to give Splinter Cell its due for the over the shoulders camera. Even gaming websites act like RE4 was the first console game to do it right. About MGS: If Kojima didn't remake MGS3 with a much improved camera, MGS4 wouldn't even be on my radar. The new camera turned MGS3 from a frustrating, almost unplayable game to a game (MGS3:S) that was actually better than most Splinter Cells, except for Chaos Theory, IMO.

With Japanese developed games in general, I just lower my expectations and hope whatever I'm interested in turns out to be decent. I'm not even expecting a lot out of Ninja Gaiden 2.

I think Ubisoft is starting to rehash games more than EA.

A sandbox survival horror game (ala GTA) would be sweet. Survival horror has reached something of an impasse with its set paths and claustrophobic environments. Dead Rising touches on some of those elements but it was too goofy for its own good. It reminded more of Dead Alive (Peter Jackson pre-LotR) than anything else.

Dead Rising had all the potential to be a good sandbox survival horror game. If they would get rid if lame Frank the main character (give gamers an option of which character they want to use), get rid of the silly time of day restraints for main missions (side quests could keep it, just to have certain ones available during different times of the day), then I actually would have enjoyed the game. Unfortunately, I don't see a lot of changes being made for a sequel.

[slade]

You all know as well as me that if not for Splinter Cell, both RE4 would have had human tank controls and MGS4 would have ended up having static camera angles.

Going by that logic, had it not been for RE4 showing the west that such a camera could be used for action games, Gears of War would have been yet another in a long line of FPS's and Uncharted really would be a Tomb Raider clone. As it stands, the only real comparison here is the over the shoulder view when you're aiming. Other then that, the actual camera outside the combat feels different. It's better in RE4.

As for MGS, number 3 had the old archaic camera in spite of Splinter Cell. The third person camera was only implemented because fans complained about how there was no radar to alleviate the faults of the old camera system.

[Mochan]

No one wants to give Splinter Cell its due for the over the shoulders camera. Even gaming websites act like RE4 was the first console game to do it right.

SC didn't have an over the shoulder camera I recall it had the "behind the head" camera -- when it was behind your head (as I recall there were times when it wasn't -- its certainly very different from the OTS view of RE4)

Not sure what the fuss is about the over the shoulder camera anyway, I *HATE* that view -- not sure what the fuss is over RE4 for that matter. I've tried 3 versions of it already and each time I did they always left a bad taste in my mouth after 10 minutes. The only version I haven't tried yet is the Wii version and I really don't want to anymore.


You all know as well as me that if not for Splinter Cell, both RE4 would have had human tank controls and MGS4 would have ended up having static camera angles.


Ohreally? RE4 still has human tank controls. You can't even freaking sidestep.

Only a fanboy would think that SC was the cause for Metal Gear having different cam angles. Splinter Cell had been out for a while before MGS3 came out and MGS3 still had static camera angles. It makes a hell of a lot more sense to say MGS4's camera is as it is because of feedback from MGS3.

I never buy Japanese games because I think that, outside of Nintendo, they are generally lower quality product and just so damn stuck in their ways with archaic design choices. They would rather polish crap from the early 90's instead of making something new.

Right, that's why the the non-Nintendo Japanese came up with games like Culdcept, Pikmin, Katamari, Trauma Center, etc. right? If I had to look for unique game experiences I would actually rather look in the Japanese stable than the Western ones, which come much more dangerously close to your description of being stuck in archaic game design and just improving and polishing it.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Yeah! I'm sure making a case for absolute dung like Kane and Lynch, and saying it's gameplay is better than Uncharted is giving you a tonne of credible miles:rolleyes:, where aiming and trying to get to cover in that game is as awful and convoluting as trying to control the cars in DRIVING EMOTION TYPE-S.

Ohh my credibility is suffering on VGR, i'm so disgraced!

Its funny because I started M.E. and when I was playing, something felt eerily familiar and I couldn't put my finger on it. Then it dawned on me. The cover system in M.E. is just like the one in K&L. No buttons, basically you walk up to an object, and depending on your angle, you go into cover. It works just the same here as it did in K&L. And only a freakin' retard would have problems with it.

As far as bad aiming in K&L idiot they were modeling the different accuracy characteristics of each weapon. Some weapons were more accurate than others, also kinda like in ME. Except in Mass Effect they do give the ratings in the weapons descriptions so you know exactly how accurate a weapon is, but if you couldn't figure it out in K&L u truly are stupid. Another thing about K&L is if you were too far away from something you just weren't going to hit it. That's reality, sorry that they didn't give a handgun the range and accuracy of a sniper rifle. So there ya go, penalize the game for having some depth. But I already know most guys on this board prefer shallow games. Especially the Milkdrinkers.

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

SC didn't have an over the shoulder camera I recall it had the "behind the head" camera -- when it was behind your head (as I recall there were times when it wasn't -- its certainly very different from the OTS view of RE4)

Not sure what the fuss is about the over the shoulder camera anyway, I *HATE* that view -- not sure what the fuss is over RE4 for that matter. I've tried 3 versions of it already and each time I did they always left a bad taste in my mouth after 10 minutes. The only version I haven't tried yet is the Wii version and I really don't want to anymore.

Splinter Cell and RE4's views looked about the same for me, except for the fact that the character in RE4 was so close to the screen, he was blocking everything else.

Ohreally? RE4 still has human tank controls. You can't even freaking sidestep.

Only a fanboy would think that SC was the cause for Metal Gear having different cam angles. Splinter Cell had been out for a while before MGS3 came out and MGS3 still had static camera angles. It makes a hell of a lot more sense to say MGS4's camera is as it is because of feedback from MGS3.

I dunno, Mochan. If gamers didn't get a chance to play a good stealth/action game that had a better camera, I don't think there would have been a different camera for MGS3:S and MGS4. I don't remember any real complaining about the static camera angle until there was already two (or maybe even three) Splinter Cell games out and the regular MGS3 had hit the store shelves. I think the lack of the MGS2 radar had a big part in it as well.

[slade]

Splinter Cell and RE4's views looked about the same for me, except for the fact that the character in RE4 was so close to the screen, he was blocking everything else.

I never had that problem. In fact, I prefer that camera view for third person shooters. It's also the reason Dark Sector is on my watch list.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/28536.html

[Mochan]

I dunno, Mochan. If gamers didn't get a chance to play a good stealth/action game that had a better camera, I don't think there would have been a different camera for MGS3:S and MGS4. I don't remember any real complaining about the static camera angle until there was already two (or maybe even three) Splinter Cell games out and the regular MGS3 had hit the store shelves. I think the lack of the MGS2 radar had a big part in it as well.

Strictly speaking there were other stealth games out already that had a "better camera" than MGS. The Thief games have been out for ages, and there's also Tenchu, those predated Splinter Cell. Splinter Cell by the way had a camera system more similar to Tenchu than Resident Evil 4.

Neither of these games had a discernable impact on MGS3's camera, and trust me I stopped playing MGS3 *because* of that crappy camera, even though I was really looking forward to the game.

I'd imagine a lot of people had issues with the original MGS3 camera as well, and I'm pretty sure a lot of reviews marked that as one of the game's bad points. I thought the whole reason Subsistence was released was because of the camera issues of the original.

Anyway personally I hated RE4's camera because I could hardly see anything except for Leon's back. I really HATED that, plus the clumsy controls as it is I just couldn't get into the game.

[thelastword]

Ohh my credibility is suffering on VGR, i'm so disgraced!

Its funny because I started M.E. and when I was playing, something felt eerily familiar and I couldn't put my finger on it. Then it dawned on me. The cover system in M.E. is just like the one in K&L.Ohh! really, so you agree with what I've said before then? Here's a game in Kane and Lynch, being panned by reviewers and gamers everywhere, hell, panned so effin much that guys are getting fired and such, but to you, it's oh! sooooooo goooood, that you are now saying that the main gameplay mechanic in M.E is spot on with that of Kane and Lynch, so why is M.E being scored much better? Is it because Bioware's games gets two thumbs up by default?

I'm sure Kane and Lynch does not have as many performance stopping issues like M.E, sure, M.E is prettier, but is it not better to play a game that moves better with the same gameplay mechanics than to play a better looking slideshow. The story is supposedly much better in M.E, but you said the Story in Kane and Lynch was good too, your words, so why is Kane and Lynch being lynched? unlike M.E.

[thelastword]

Neither of these games had a discernable impact on MGS3's camera, and trust me I stopped playing MGS3 *because* of that crappy camera, even though I was really looking forward to the game. Dude, get MGS3-S and play this game, some people had camera issues with MGS3, but I felt it was all about getting used to the newer mechanics brought into MGS3 first (no radar+camo) and then your camera issues would eventually dissipate. If you couldn't handle the cam though, you should have grabbed a copy of subsistence upon arrival, this is one of the best games from last gen and Kojima ensured that all should play it with the Subsistence release IMO.


As for RE4, I think the third person cam in RE4 felt much better than in Splinter Cell, why? because you could pan it faster, as a result aiming was faster, taking out enemies was involved and rewarding, the gameplay actually synced with the camera and I'm thinking that's what made it a much better game overall.

[Mochan]

I have Subsistence here it's waiting to be played, I just haven't had much heart to play my PS2 lately. I still have a few games lined up for it including Culdcept and Valkyrie Profile 2 and GOW2.

As for RE4 I played SC on my PC so I was able to aim a lot better with the camera there. If RE4 had a decent PC version I would have the same feelings about it I think.

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

Anyway personally I hated RE4's camera because I could hardly see anything except for Leon's back. I really HATED that, plus the clumsy controls as it is I just couldn't get into the game.

That's his name. Leon. And yeah, I couldn't stand seeing more of Leon's back than the rest of the game.

What are the odds that Capcom will fix this, along with the controls for RE5? I have a feeling the odds are slim.

[Mochan]

Well in the trailer for RE5 we already saw Chris or whoever that guy was with his back to us and man what a big manly muscular hot piece of manmeat back it was.

[slade]

Obviously they aren't going to change it. You guys just need thicker glasses to see every enemy on screen. If I can do it, so can you.

[Rogue Bounty Hunter]

We didn't need thicker glasses. We needed Leon to get the hell out of the way. Same with Chris if he's that close to the screen.

Regardless, I wouldn't be surprised if I passed on the game.

[slade]

That camera has never been a problem for me in the way you described it and I've played all three games (RE4, Gears, Uncharted) it was a part of. I'm gonna fire this game up again to see what exactly you're talking about.

[folken001]

never had problem with any of these games. it's all about how you position yourself. in RE4, leon stands in the center unless he shoots. You can see everyone in front of you, so why would you position yourself so leon can block your line of sight?