Gamespot Editor Wrong, K&L Not That Bad!

[ThaMaskedGamer]

I still believe that if u ask a guy to review a game, you shouldn't fire him if you disagree with the review or others complain about it. But I certainly feel the video review he gave was unprofessional in many regards and off the mark, to that degree, he deserved at least a slap on the wrist.

First of all if you caught his review, you will remember his comments seemed full of vitriol and emotion, as if he had a personal vendetta or axe to grind with the game or the company. It wasn't so much the comments he made, but the way he made them. One thing he attacked was the dialogue in the game, he came off as if he never heard of the the 'F'-word and as if he was indignified by its prevalent use in the game. He had me thinking the story in the game would just be a rubbish excuse to use profanity to sell a game and total bunk. I've found the complete opposite. I think the voice acting is great, I think the story is great, and the dialogue is very good. I think Kane's unstable personality is explained pretty well and for a gritty crime drama the use of the F-bomb is NOT at all misplaced here.

He also attacked some of the games infrastructure. I agree that the graphics are somewhere between not good and not bad, certainly nothing on the level of COD4 or Uncharted. But at the same time the graphics do have some redeeming qualities. The game is kind of a mix between sand-box, first person shooter, 3rd person shooter, and on rails vehicle action. I think they were aiming for a cinematic high intensity filmlike experience, so the game encompasses all of these styles. I think they largely pull-it off. The weakest mission thus far was the first was, which was a confusing mess, but it only gets better thus far to me.

If you take away the bad graphics the game is okay. The action is actually pretty good for a 3rd person shooter, much better than say GTA, Saint's Row, even Uncharted. Actually I would compare the gun-play to Uncharted, with K&L having a better feel and the weapons feeling a lot more realistic. The controls are quirky and unchangeable, so you have to get use to a different scheme than most shooters. I took about 10 minutes to do this after the first mission. It really paid off! Gerstmann complained about the cover mechanic, not having a button and not working well. I took a few minutes to figure it out and when I started playing I found it very easy to use. Basically u just have to understand what part of an object to get near, usually it is the corner and bam, u go into cover. If u are too far from the corner, it won't work well. Not hard to figure out and once u do, its child's play.

He also complained about the AI. Along with the dialogue, this an area of the game I think he got completely wrong. While I was expecting to experience COD4 levels of stupid, useless AI, I thought the AI here was decent. Very comparable to Uncharted. I am also playing the game on Morphine, the hardest level. But Kane or any of the other AI compadres accompanying you do an average job. First of all, they move to cover and will move around from cover to cover own their own. They WILL indeed take down enemies, but not hog the action. And they can be killed, in fact, if they fall, u have a short amount of time to get to them and administer some morhpine to revive them, unlike COD4 where the enemy can survive Air-to-ground bombing runs. On top of that, u can command them pretty simply. You can walk to them and exchange primary and secondary weapons, you can get ammo from them if you low, and they heal you if they can get to you. I wouldn't say the AI is the best in the world, but its far from what Gerstmann portrayed. And not as bad as other games they have praised.

Anyway, I'm actually enjoying the game. I like the fact plot and story is very different than your average action shooter. Its unfortunate the graphics are bad, because I think this game is pretty good. I'm having more fun playing this than Uncharted, though Uncharted is probably a better game overall, I can't say until I play more of K&L. But the combat is better, the plot is grittier, the voice acting is good, maybe not as good as Uncharted, but definitely better than your average FPS.

Anyway, I would say give this game a rental and see for yourself. I think it is highly entertaining. I guess I should also say I just love the premise, bank robbers, gritty crime saga, underworld crime figures, cool environments like nightclubs etc. Too bad they skimped on the graphics. It seems nowaday that is the biggest thing reviewers look at.

[ilnadmy]

Vitriol? Emotion? Did we watch the same review? He said the F-word was overused, to the point that with one of your teammates, when you command him to do something, his response is just, "F*** you!". I mean seriously, that's just stupid and retarded right there. He said the AI was braindead, to the point that they will walk around in circles and get stuck on the environment. I don't know about you but I didn't see any of that in COD4. He backed up all his criticisms with facts from the game, so I don't see where the "emotion and vitriol" comes into play.

Let's face it, the only reason you're enjoying this game is because you can issue orders to your teammates. Ooh, it's a "modern combat" game.

[Mochan]

I have Jericho, TMG has K&L. Congrats.

[T.Tashi]

It wasn't just Gamespot. About 25 other sites are in line with the Gamespot review rating the game average to below average. Funny post though. Apparently even a game like K&L is better than a PS3 exclusive.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Vitriol? Emotion? Did we watch the same review? He said the F-word was overused, to the point that with one of your teammates, when you command him to do something, his response is just, "F*** you!". I mean seriously, that's just stupid and retarded right there. He said the AI was braindead, to the point that they will walk around in circles and get stuck on the environment. I don't know about you but I didn't see any of that in COD4. He backed up all his criticisms with facts from the game, so I don't see where the "emotion and vitriol" comes into play.

Let's face it, the only reason you're enjoying this game is because you can issue orders to your teammates. Ooh, it's a "modern combat" game.

Yes he was very snide and smarmy with his review, it wasn't emotionally detached, at least that was my perspective when I watched his review. I think this is probably what got him in hot water, it probably wasn't what he said so much as how he said it.

As far as Kane using the F-word, have u ever watched the Sopranos, Scarface, Heat? Its no different, of course here it is part of some of the routine comments Kane makes, so it is repeated often. But when u understand the guys is emotional psychopath when he runs out of medication it just all fits very well with the plot.

As far as AI, u are wrong. COD4 the AI does run around like idiots, did u even play the farm mission with the Javelin, u can't tell me they weren't running around like blind people on fire. And at many other points in COD4 they ran in front of you, took your cover and were just all over the place. The AI in this game is nothing like that and I haven't ran into AI related problems yet. Kane just kinda supports you just like Lena or whatever here name was in Uncharted. Now maybe later in the game the AI will break, but so far, not a problem.

Actually there was only one mission, the Tokyo Nightclub where I used the teammate orders. That was because Kane was carrying a hostage we were sneaking out of the club and they kept getting shot. So that was the only mission thus far I had to use the orders. Again, that is how decent the AI is. I'm telling the AI is no different and plays very much like Sully and Lena from Uncharted. Again with the exceptions that in this game they can die, they can revive you, they can give you ammunition.

The only reason why i'm enjoying the game is because it is enjoyable. Again, the only mission I didn't enjoy was the first one, mainly because I didn't know the controls or what was going on. But so far it is a very competent 3rd person shooter, why are u hating on the game? Play it. If u enjoyed the shooting in Uncharted you will find this very similar with a bit more action and better gunplay.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

I have Jericho, TMG has K&L. Congrats.

I've just rented this game, and i'm only about 1/3rd of the way through. Usually though at this point through a lot of the elements of the game aren't really going to change. So I just issued a comment now because I don't expect to be surprised by something. But I guess there is still time to disappoint. But thus far, aside from the graphics, I just don't see anything really disappointing about the game when you compare it to other games like it.

I already said the shooting was handled very similar to Uncharted, its darn near the same. 3rd person, when you aim it kinda goes into half first person/half over the shoulder. You can take cover, just like Uncharted, except here it is done automatically. You blindfire from cover. And in fact, the guns feel and sound better than Uncharted. The enemy AI isn't as doofless as the guys in Uncharted either.

The other thing is the vehicle action is similar, mostly on rails, with u riding shotgun or something. Of course Uncharted did have the Jet-ski that you could control, but that wasn't actually a shining moment for me in Uncharted.

I think both games have great voice acting and dialogue, at this point I definitely give the nod to Uncharted, especially when you add in Uncharted's fluid animation. Story I think is leaning toward K&L, especially when you view Uncharted in totality, because the game ended being a let-down at the end.

Of course Uncharted has platforming and stomps K&L in graphics and animation department. Anyway when you look at a lot of the other 3rd person crime shooter games like GTA and Saint's Row, even Tomb Raider, I just can't see why K&L is taking so much heat. I think the review and others are definitely unfair, but again, maybe I have to see the whole game. At this point though I cannot lie, i'm really into the game and can't wait to play some more tonight.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

It wasn't just Gamespot. About 25 other sites are in line with the Gamespot review rating the game average to below average. Funny post though. Apparently even a game like K&L is better than a PS3 exclusive.

Well i'm sure K&L is better than some of the PS3 exclusives, but it is too early to say it is better than Uncharted. I'd give Uncharted about an 83%. We will see where K&L ends up, thus far i'd say it is in 8/10 territory, whether it drops or where exactly in that range, I still have 2/3rds of the game to find out. But I will say I think the game is more interesting because I find the subject matter more intriguiging and the plot more interesting. It isn't a bad game, but I guess it got hammered in the reviews because it was heavily hyped and didn't deliver the graphical punch necessary.

[theWacoKid]

Kane and Lynch which I've finished, is a rubbish game. And the AI is effin stupid. Controls are slow, unresponsive and sloppy, aiming is a PITA, so to compensate you have retarded enemy AI. There are no controls for the cover system, you get close to an obstacle and hope your character will stick. Nine times out of ten, when he does, he's facing in the opposite direction which you wanted him to.

To give an example of how wretched the AI is, we'll go to the famous nightclub scene in the game. When all hell breaks loose and the gunplay erupts, all the crowd in the game does in mill around in circles, absolutely no one attempts to leave the building. Its a thoroughly stupid, thoroughly contrived state of affairs.

As for the story, its recycled crap stolen from many sources, most notably Sony's The Getaway. Same frickin setup, former associates kidnap kid, force you to steal for them, blah, blah, blah. Scenarios are stolen from films like Heat. Both endings of the game suck. K&L blows major chunks, the AI in uncharted is miles better than the AI if there is any in K&L. Don't expect to see any flanking done by the AI in K&L, this is your basic come straight ahead at you crap.

K&L sports a creaky old game engine, thoroughly unrefined, clumsy in execution and has a cliche storyline that effectively goes nowhere. Graphics are dull, the animation sucks ass. The game is a 5/10 at best, a huge disappointment, but you can instantly tell that this was an IO game destined for current gen and then upgraded to next gen. Problem is, there is absolutely nothing next gen in what they do here. Game doesn't deserve even to be mentioned in the same breath as uncharted. Uncharted kicks this game's sorry ass in the technical department. There's nothing even to compare unless you're a moronic xbot stooge, oh, wait, this thread was created by a moronic xbot stooge. My bad.

[T.Tashi]

Well i'm sure K&L is better than some of the PS3 exclusives, but it is too early to say it is better than Uncharted. I'd give Uncharted about an 83%. We will see where K&L ends up, thus far i'd say it is in 8/10 territory, whether it drops or where exactly in that range, I still have 2/3rds of the game to find out. But I will say I think the game is more interesting because I find the subject matter more intriguiging and the plot more interesting. It isn't a bad game, but I guess it got hammered in the reviews because it was heavily hyped and didn't deliver the graphical punch necessary.

Ah, I dunno TMG. The Wii has graphically inferior graphics across the board, technically speaking. But some might argue Nintendo gets a pass in many of its reviews and I wouldn't just disagree.But I can see where you're coming from. Well let us know what you think when you finish it.

[Gadfly2317]

So anyway, it's nice to see you penning your own disagrement with widely held opinions in the professional reviews after having had the gall to call me a "liar" for disagreeing with the Gamespot reviewer who said Lair was unplayable, and for claiming that certain aspects of it were pretty cool to experience, even if it got old very fast. Controlling Lair was not very difficult. I wasn't lying--the Gamespot reviewers was simply incompetent, full of crap, or else had a faulty controller.

Your assessments of K&L may be correct, but damn, with so many killer games right now, it's almost impossible to consider giving time to something that is "not that bad." Same thing with Lair. It's "not that bad" as you'd gather from some of the more vitriolic reviews (Gamespots especially) but certainly not something you'd want to buy.

[theWacoKid]

So anyway, it's nice to see you penning your own disagrement with widely held opinions in the professional reviews after having had the gall to call me a "liar" for disagreeing with the Gamespot reviewer who said Lair was unplayable, and for claiming that certain aspects of it were pretty cool to experience, even if it got old very fast. Controlling Lair was not very difficult. I wasn't lying--the Gamespot reviewers was simply incompetent, full of crap, or else had a faulty controller.

Your assessments of K&L may be correct, but damn, with so many killer games right now, it's almost impossible to consider giving time to something that is "not that bad." Same thing with Lair. It's "not that bad" as you'd gather from some of the more vitriolic reviews (Gamespots especially) but certainly not something you'd want to buy.

This is just more of this stooge's let's bash the ps3, made even funnier by the virtue the dumbazz bought one. He doesn't even have the balls to go out and claim K&L is good, but he's giving it an 8/10 score. How wimpy is that? What a gutless wonder. If you want claim a game like K&L is good, when in fact its a technical turd, at the very least, then go ahead and say it, not this its not bad, but I think it might be better than uncharted, blah, blah, blah. What a douche. I think one of the funniest things I read was that IO claimed they were using the spe units on the ps3. For what, I have no idea. There's nothing here that couldn't be done on the ps2 or the xbox. And there's some horrific, inexplicable slowdown in the final section of the game, which can only be chocked up to sloppy coding.

You can immediately tell this game is NOT made from the ground up for next gen consoles. You can tell immediately that this is the clunky old freedom fighters engine IO is using and updating somewhat for next gen. I couldn't believe how clumsy this game controlled. Melee fighting is a joke. Get close to an enemy, press x and watch a pre-canned animation. So effin lazy. I rented, and its not worth the rental. The endings blow, you wind up giong that's it, that's all, that's how you're ending the story. They put out a great early trailer for the game. Too bad the game doesn't come even close to living up to the trailer.

[Mochan]

So anyway, it's nice to see you penning your own disagrement with widely held opinions in the professional reviews after having had the gall to call me a "liar" for disagreeing with the Gamespot reviewer who said Lair was unplayable,

The great thing about TMG making this post, is that he can never call me out for loving Jericho ever again.


Your assessments of K&L may be correct, but damn, with so many killer games right now, it's almost impossible to consider giving time to something that is "not that bad." Same thing with Lair. It's "not that bad" as you'd gather from some of the more vitriolic reviews (Gamespots especially) but certainly not something you'd want to buy.


Pfft we need more passion! I tell you Jericho is the second best shooter of the year thus far, right behind Crysis! Nobody's gonna want to try K&L just because it's "Not Bad!" It has to be freaking awesome! Just like Jericho! Waco is right you say the game is an 8/10? Then say it's freaking good man! I gave Jericho an 8/10 and I had the balls to call it the best shooter I played all year long!

Don't tell me that you plan to do another COD4 Bait and Switch deal here. "Ooh COD4 is awesome!" Then as you finish it... "COD4 sucks balls." Oh and it's one of the few games that are good on the PS3. Let's not do another COD4 here okay? It's getting old.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

The great thing about TMG making this post, is that he can never call me out for loving Jericho ever again.





Pfft we need more passion! I tell you Jericho is the second best shooter of the year thus far, right behind Crysis! Nobody's gonna want to try K&L just because it's "Not Bad!" It has to be freaking awesome! Just like Jericho! Waco is right you say the game is an 8/10? Then say it's freaking good man! I gave Jericho an 8/10 and I had the balls to call it the best shooter I played all year long!

Don't tell me that you plan to do another COD4 Bait and Switch deal here. "Ooh COD4 is awesome!" Then as you finish it... "COD4 sucks balls." Oh and it's one of the few games that are good on the PS3. Let's not do another COD4 here okay? It's getting old.

I don't know what Whacko is talking about, I think the guy is just a bald face liar, or perhaps the AI act a bit differently on the lower difficulty settings. I think this game is just getting better and better.

One mission, the prison break is a great level. The action is intense and the AI both enemy and friendly is very good. He is a effin liar saying the enemy won't flank you, all I can say is bump up the difficulty, they flank you plenty! They also engage you from higher ground. You end up controlling a bunch of guys and the command system works pretty well, because after you give one guy an order, the command cursor actually moves to the next guy automatically, a real time saver. Also the icons for you guys tell you exactly what they are up to, defending, attacking or following, again, nothing revolutionary, but very helpful and efficient.

The action is way intense with destructible walls, columns, and objects. Then there was the Tokyo assault which begins with you rappeling into a skyscraper, this was a FANTASTIC mission. You fight your way down and out through the skyscraper into the streets of Tokyo, where you engage the cops. The on the street fighting is very reminescent of HEAT after they robbed the bank, and it also similar to Rainbow6 where you were outside the casino amongst the cars fighting terrorist, except this street battle is actually BETTER than the one in Rainbow6.

The cops will flank you, but not so much that they will run out and get gunned down, more cops also pull up in cars behind you, and run up on overpasses to snipe. Again, the action is great with cars breaking up and blowing up, cops throwing teargas, and your guys fighting very well. I observed my 4 AI guys taking cover and taking down cops, again they will also not remain stationary, they move around under cover and sometimes from cover to cover within the general area you command them to go to.

Whacko is a little bit right in that the shooting is kinda slow, but again it is very typical of all 3rd person shooters, it isn't as precise as a FPS, so he just doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. The shooting here is better than Uncharted, by FAR, and better or just as good as any other 3rd person action game. Though it isn't as precise as a FPS, big deal, that is why it isn't a FPS.

The action only intensifies, with SWAT showing up. The next mission moves to Havanna and you are in the middle of a political coup. Here the game gets pretty intense with BMPs, Hind Choppers, Machine Gun emplacements, and enemies in buildings, all over. For Whacko to say they don't flank you is just a damn lie or perhaps the AI routine is a bit different on the lower settings. They also use jeeps with gunners.

There were a couple of flaky mission to be fair. One had you fighting guys in a Earth Mover type dump truck and another right after the nightclub mission, was kinda weak.

Whacko is right though, they have ripped off of every mob movie, bank robbing movie, crime saga out there in terms of story elements and plot, but I think they've managed to create a pretty gripping story that differentiates itself. The dialogue get's better and better, you break some guys out of the joint and their added dialogue is right on queue. After a while the low-tech graphics begin to fade away in a hail of bullets and action and destructible environments.

I just checked out the GameInformer review of the game, they give it a 7.25 or something, I say this game is a solid 8. Maybe it isn't as good as Uncharted, but I am having way more fun with this game because there is simply more gameplay here. Whacko is also dead wrong about the cover mechanic, I can understand someone having trouble with it, but it is very simple once u spend 2 minutes with it. And after you get use to it, u see it is very quick since u don't have to push a button. You simply must use cover in the game or you won't survive, at least on the hardest level.

At this point in the game, I can definitely say as long as i am not close to the end, which I have a feeling I am, I would have been completely satisfied with purchasing this game. If however I am close to the end, then the game is too short just like all the other nextgen games thus far. But so far, the only thing that could make this game better is better graphics or also changing it into a FPS. Other than that, I think everything is just fine. Too bad you guys are such graphics wh*res and review wh*res to enjoy the game.

[ilnadmy]

Hahahah WE'RE review wh*res?!! Are you out of your flipping mind?!!

[ThaMaskedGamer]

This is just more of this stooge's let's bash the ps3, made even funnier by the virtue the dumbazz bought one. He doesn't even have the balls to go out and claim K&L is good, but he's giving it an 8/10 score. How wimpy is that? What a gutless wonder. If you want claim a game like K&L is good, when in fact its a technical turd, at the very least, then go ahead and say it, not this its not bad, but I think it might be better than uncharted, blah, blah, blah. Well yesterday I wasn't prepared to say it fully, because I was still too early into the game. Now I am far enough to say this game is definitely a solid 80-85%. I know all you care about now is the game is a "technical turd" I wonder what the heck you are doing with a PS3 then? So what the game isn't the flashiest or purtiest, when you play, you definitely get absorbed into the game. The further along you get the more the action picks up, the better the story gets. Half the claims you made were complete BS, what difficulty setting did you play the game on? Because either you are flatout lying or the AI routines are different on the lower settings. I also highly doubt this game was reviewed on the higher settings, so perhaps that accounts for some of the reviews reported AI behavior. But my guys have never gotten in my way, they do not run around in circles, they ALWAYS stay under cover, and when they move they move from cover to cover. The enemy is also very good about staying under cover, they don't run straight at you, they do flank, they do take higher ground.

Its also so funny how much these idiots cherish Uncharted, so much so that if you compare anything to it, they automatically take it as an insult. The fact is the shooting in Uncharted is worse than the shooting here. The AI is almost the same, except I have to give the nod to K&L because most of Uncharted you were solo, and never did you have up to 4 people to control. For K&L to have four other guys that you have to control, them do a nice job of NOT having the guys running around doing dumb sh*t is much more impressive. Also, the enemy in Uncharted was NOT a threat at all. And they acted insanely dumb most of the time. To be fair, I didn't play Uncharted on the hardest setting, perhaps the AI was more of a challenge on that setting. But still there are tons more enemies and things going on on-screen in this game.

Now everything else about Uncharted is indeed superior, the voice acting is better, though again the voice acting in K&L is still great. The animation, no brainer, Uncharted kills. The technicals are no doubt better. But the gameplay in Uncharted is very slow, very easy. When the cursed Spaniards show up, the game just about ends. And talk about running directly at you, wow, cursed Zombie spaniards, run straight at you like dogs. For a minute it is cool, but you expect more. Then half of the end of the game is just context sensitive button sequences. The whole finale was just a let down, a context button mashing event, with some idiot merc, very weak. But overall Uncharted was a good game, but the heart of the gameplay could use a lot of improvement. In K&L the gameplay is very good, but the technicals could use a lot of improvements. Both games have great stories and great voice acting.

Anyway, I welcome the disagreements, but please, give it a break with going bonkers over Uncharted. The game is a graphical showpiece but by no means is it a gameplay champ. And Milkdrinkers are just going ape-sh*t cause the game is exclusive, let's be honest. If this is PS3's best game, and it just might be, I still have to play RFOM, then no one is missing anything by not jumping on board PS3 yet. There are many 360 games better than Uncharted, who ever has played both, am I lying in saying Condemned is better than Uncharted, and that was a 360 launch game. Uncharted is good, but let's not go overboard people.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Hahahah WE'RE review wh*res?!! Are you out of your flipping mind?!!

No not at all. All i've done before was compare the composite reviews of PS3 against 360 to note the general lack of quality on the system. I've never sworn by reviews, I've never hesitated to disagree with a review, and I definitely don't buy games based on review scores. But you guys are flippin crazy. COD4 is superficial eye-candy, the game has no depth and its joke amount of acclaim this game is getting over other shooters. And it is very funny to see a game like K&L feature WAY BETTER AI than COD4, and reviews lambaste K&L and praise COD4. First of all COD4 doesn't even have any kind of any AI, all they do is run straight to you and infinitely respawn! Did the reviews blast the game, Gamespot mentioned it ever so lightly, but generally glossed over it, most other sites just ignored this fact, but they wanna slam K&L. Ditto with Uncharted, you can't tell me the enemy AI in Uncharted is better than K&L, read any review of Uncharted, its scarcely mentioned as a problem. So tell me who is a review wh*re?

And team AI, come on, its a joke. In COD4 your guys are all over the place, in your face, taking prime cover position, bouncing in and out of your line of fire, and not hitting a damn thing or even covering your back. In K&L they do that and more, they actually supress the enemy, COD4 programmers don't even know how to spell supressing fire it seems. And what makes it so bad, COD4 is a FPS, K&L isn't. COD4 as a FPS should definitely have great AI, definitely have commands, and cover. And yet the game is getting all of this acclaim. Its a rip.

Anyway, as you were:thumbsup:

[ilnadmy]

COD4 programmers don't even know how to spell supressing fire it seems.

It's spelled "suppressing"...

[ThaMaskedGamer]

It's spelled "suppressing"...

Thanks dude, you are the smartest.:thumbsup:

[ilnadmy]

LOL, I just found it ironically hilarious that you were saying they couldn't spell the word when you yourself misspelled it.

Anyway, onto your COD4 criticisms (and another ironic thing, here I am defending COD4 against your criticisms, just like how you were defending Halo 3 from my criticisms a few months back), but they don't hold any water. The friendly AI is competent and has saved my ass more times than I care to recall. I don't know if the console versions have stupider AI (from the Veteran videos I've seen on YouTube it seems the console versions are a tad easier), but on the PC I haven't had issues with the AI taking my cover. Sure it's happened a handful of times to me, but it's not that much of an issue. They never get in my way, and they help me out a LOT. Hell, I relied on them a hell of a lot in the mission Safehouse to clear out the buildings.

And the enemy AI will smoke you the f*** out if you don't do anything. I've gotten fragged to bits for hiding behind cover too long, I've gotten flanked, I've gotten pounded with RPGs, and just all around hassled if I took my sweet time. And as far as the whole spawning thing, that's a COD trademark. If you don't like it, then for God's sake don't play COD.

[T.Tashi]

If K&L is so great, why not compare it to Gears of War?

[ThaMaskedGamer]

LOL, I just found it ironically hilarious that you were saying they couldn't spell the word when you yourself misspelled it.Yeah ya got me, you arse! LOL!

<b>
Anyway, onto your COD4 criticisms (and another ironic thing, here I am defending COD4 against your criticisms, just like how you were defending Halo 3 from my criticisms a few months back), but they don't hold any water. The friendly AI is competent and has saved my ass more times than I care to recall. I don't know if the console versions have stupider AI (from the Veteran videos I've seen on YouTube it seems the console versions are a tad easier), but on the PC I haven't had issues with the AI taking my cover. Sure it's happened a handful of times to me, but it's not that much of an issue. They never get in my way, and they help me out a LOT. Hell, I relied on them a hell of a lot in the mission Safehouse to clear out the buildings.</b>You are being far to kind. Forgive because I forget the names of the levels, and don't care to look them up. Well, let's start at the end, the very end with the Aircraft mini-mission. Typical of the useless COD4 team AI. On VET mode, I was trying to complete it under 45 sec or 1 minute, whatever, anyway, to save time I decided I would run past the guy coming out of the bathroom, and shoot the two guys further ahead. The first time I did it, I got blasted in the back of the head! The rest of my team didn't even shoot the damn guy! So I have to cap that guy in a flash then the next area is divided, since you can't control where your team goes, you would think at least one would go the opposite way you went, and maybe um kill someone. Instead, they were completely uselss. I had to develop a routine to get through that area, I would pop the two guys present, lob a flash bang into the room, reload, kill ALL the guys by myself, then my AI would come running up after I cleared the whole damn thing, and ALWAYS take the primary spot looking into the next section of the aircraft. I never could complete that on VET and my guys were totally useless.

The one mission where you had to disable the nukes in flight, it was timed. No matter which way you went, they were completely useless. And how dare you, go down one corridor, expecting them to cover your back or flank, despite the fact they are right there, they don't, so you have to shoot forward and occassionally look backward to kill guys. They would constantly throw grenades that hit the ceiling and ricocheted back. They couldn't KILL NADA even in close quarters, and kept jumping around in the line of fire. Then when you cleared the main area and got to the one section where there were boxes blocking you, so had to go either left or right, they did NOTHING. Then when you finally got around and cleared the guys behind the boxes, they came running through, and the cut-scene started where they asked the one guy on the radio to open the door. Dude I know that game like the back of my hand, you love the game so you are being forgiving of all its crappy faults.

Now yes there were some missions particularly early on where they were one shot one kill, which makes it odd that toward the end, they couldn't hit crap. Much of that would have been solved if in the latter stages at least, when you were in command, they gave u simple commands. It would have been nice to position them so they would stay still and least suppress a corridor so I could go around, or cover me, this way I wouldn't get shot in the back or side, or have to shoot around them. Anyway, we will argue till the end of time about this game. But I know you had frustrations with it on VET mode, you even admitted so, and this was AFTER you played the game on the easier settings.

The AI in K&L makes COD4 look silly. These guys will use a mail-box for cover, they have the sense to move from cover say if tear-gas is thrown or they are flanked, they always move to cover. And they do a great job of staying alive, not crossing in your path. That's the one thing about COD4, your teammates couldn't die, I think they just decided to do that because their AI programming was so horrid, they wouldn't have survived or you would have been reviving them every 10 seconds. Anyway, that's not good AI. And just having infinite spawning enemies is not good AI either. K&L has hordes of enemies, but they are finite and exhibit intelligence. Entire sections of COD4 digressed into a freaking game of Grenade wars it was so stupid.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

If K&L is so great, why not compare it to Gears of War?

Because the action is not remotely similar. The gunplay in GEARS is on another level than Uncharted and K&L. The gunplay in K&L and Uncharted is basically exactly the same, even the weapons are largely the same. Also the enemies to a certain degree act the same. Uncharted enemies as you know will take cover and move around a bit throw a grenade here or there, but are generally not much of a threat. In K&L they are a bit quicker and a bit more agressive, but they basically act the same. The guns have more feeling and more impact, but that is largely because the bullets do tangible damage a la the Matrix and also the 360 controller had rumble. But there is no comparison to the futuristic weapons and crazy hulking beast and control scheme in GOW, plus the gun action is just on another level compared to these games.

[slade]

Because the action is not remotely similar. The gunplay in GEARS is on another level than Uncharted and K&L. The gunplay in K&L and Uncharted is basically exactly the same, even the weapons are largely the same. Also the enemies to a certain degree act the same. Uncharted enemies as you know will take cover and move around a bit throw a grenade here or there, but are generally not much of a threat. In K&L they are a bit quicker and a bit more agressive, but they basically act the same. The guns have more feeling and more impact, but that is largely because the bullets do tangible damage a la the Matrix and also the 360 controller had rumble. But there is no comparison to the futuristic weapons and crazy hulking beast and control scheme in GOW, plus the gun action is just on another level compared to these games.

Oh man, you could not be a bigger Xbot.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Oh man, you could not be a bigger Xbot.

And u couldn't be a bigger Milkdrinker. Plus last I checked K&L is also on the PS3. I don't see how anyone would find K&L closer in comparison to GOW than Uncharted.

But since i'm lying Slade, why don't you tell all of us how Uncharted excelled in the gunplay department, please i'm dying to hear. I remember when the game first started on the boat and you had that shoot-out, I was thinking, "Oh gawd this game is going to be crappy." Thankfully the platforming, voice acting, plot, story, graphics and animation did a good job of covering up how bad the gunfighting was. But i'd love to hear how i'm wrong.

And RBH where are u at? I just read in another thread how u felt K&L was one of the most underrated games, that is until you got to the last level. Well, i'm not there yet, but I thought Uncharted's last level was HORRID, I can't see how anything can be worse than that ending. But putting aside the last level, what did you find enjoyable in K&L, cause it seems like i'm the only other guy on this board who saw some positive stuff from the game. Come on man, don't leave me down here under the bus alone!

[slade]

Actually, to me both GoW and Uncharted were the same. I'd give Gears an 8 and Uncharted an 8. Gears lacked story and presentation while Uncharted had those but was filled with some technical problems like tearing and texture pop up. Overall forgiving since Gears had some technical problems too but Uncharted even froze on me once towards the end.

For gameplay, Gears had the visceral feel down but Uncharted plain had more variety what with the platforming and melee moves. Actually, with the melee moves, if you get them right and under certain situations, they are fairly brutal too and pack their own visceral feel.

Also, it's kinda funny how with you, it's all about testing those Xbox games on their hardest difficulties to get to the intelligent AI whereas for something like Uncharted, you likely played hard (I'll be generous here) and based your impressions off that. Then again, look who the eff I'm talking to. Chances are, even if you played on Crushing and your opinion changed, you wouldn't tell any of us because you've got your persona to maintain.

But yeah, go ahead and educate us more about Kain and Lynch Mr. 'all the great 2007 games are on 360 because the top ten rewards told me so.' You've got your own agenda to further here so I'll let you get on with it.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

Actually, to me both GoW and Uncharted were the same. I'd give Gears an 8 and Uncharted an 8. Gears lacked story and presentation while Uncharted had those but was filled with some technical problems like tearing and texture pop up. Overall forgiving since Gears had some technical problems too but Uncharted even froze on me once towards the end.

For gameplay, Gears had the visceral feel down but Uncharted plain had more variety what with the platforming and melee moves. Actually, with the melee moves, if you get them right and under certain situations, they are fairly brutal too and pack their own visceral feel.

Also, it's kinda funny how with you, it's all about testing those Xbox games on their hardest difficulties to get to the intelligent AI whereas for something like Uncharted, you likely played hard (I'll be generous here) and based your impressions off that. Then again, look who the eff I'm talking to. Chances are, even if you played on Crushing and your opinion changed, you wouldn't tell any of us because you've got your persona to maintain.

But yeah, go ahead and educate us more about Kain and Lynch Mr. 'all the great 2007 games are on 360 because the top ten rewards told me so.' You've got your own agenda to further here so I'll let you get on with it.

By same I didn't mean score. I meant which two of the three games had similar game constructs. Anyway, never mind.

I already said I didn't play Uncharted on its hardest setting. The reason why I didn't do that was because I did that with Conan and almost didn't finish the game. I didn't know if Uncharted would have some crazy asanine artificial platforming challenges that would soak up a bunch of time. About half way through, I wanted to start all over but alas I wasn't going to do that because I definitely wouldn't have finished it. So knowing K&L was mostly all shooter I didn't hesitate to put it on the hardest setting. If you say Uncharted exhibited better AI behavior on the hardest setting, I don't doubt that. The AI in Uncharted wasn't horrible. It was mostly very neutral.

Anyway, I still can't believe GEARS pops in your head in comparison to Uncharted:confused:

[slade]

I meant gameplay too. Head on over to the PS3 forum where I already did this comparison last month. In terms of gunplay, Gears and Uncharted are virtually the same. You have the same way of picking up the enemies weapons, you get the same type of weapons (a handgun, a grenade, a shotgun or machinegun and possibly something else... I forget) The cover mechanic is basically the same as well and so is that little jump roll they give you.

The only big differences in the gameplay between the two are Uncharted's more in depth melee moves and Gears' more visceral feel. I mean the soldiers in Gears slam into cover instead of going into it smoothly like Drake does in Uncharted. That might mean something to you, it doesn't mean much to me.

[thelastword]

Is this a thread about Kane and Lynch or Uncharted? Anybody do a count on the number of times Uncharted is mentioned in this thread, hell, do a count on the number of times uncharted is typed in just one of TMG's post, the numbers are mind boggling.


Anyhoos, Slade, I only saw a tear in Uncharted once and it was very slight and it's also because I was rotating the camera furiously. Texture popup? only once, oncourse to the Uboat with Sully, frankly, that's the only area with texture popup in the game and it's the only area where the issue has been screenshotted on gaf. For others not in the know, it's basically an instance where you see the textures plop unto the geometry, it only happened on a big rock in that area and I never saw it again, nothing hampering, but I'm sure that will be non existent in the sequel.


As for uncharted freezing, never happened to me, not once, but then again, no game has ever frozen on my PS3. You may need to ensure that your system don't gather too much dust, it is a dust magnet afterall.


As for gameplay and graphics. I think it's undeniable that Uncharted is much better looking than Gears of War and also performs better overall, there was actually a major glitch on act 2 in 360 Gears which impeded the progress of many gamers when it came out, it's also worth noting that Gears multiplayer have been broken from day one, and the succeeding patches broke it even more.

Simply, there isn't one area you will go in uncharted and zoom in via the shoulder button and see a blurry texture, best textures on any system including the PC. A higher polycount on Uncharted chars over Gears, and I mean all of them, including normal gun wielding pirates, way superior animation,even on lowly pirates, these guys slide to cover, run and gun, react to grenades, hell, even the physics kicks up a notch when you face the damned in the generator room, underground. This is also the best lit game out there atm, the customs house is the most impressive level I've seen in a game, juist amazing lighting.

Gunplay/gameplay, Uncharted is simply better than Gears, it's just the natural eveolution from Gears, pop and shoot is actually done to perfection here, and moving from cover to cover in Uncharted is simply snappier and more effortless than in Gears. The fact that you have a deeper melee system in uncharted and a good portion of top notch platforming just ramps up the value of uncharted over gears that much more. Production values are superior, story is superior, animation is superior, hell, you even have destructible cover in uncharted. Overall, there's no way Gears is uncharted's equal, Uncharted is just plain superior in every way.

TMG:
As for the ending, I will say that we anticipate too many similarities in our games. Your last fight wasn't some mega intergalactic threeform boss, hello, a story was being told here, it was a bit on the historic/realistic side. How many gun butts do you think that guy would take to go down? In the game, one shot into a pirates membrane and it's lights. Was the last guy some type of super intergalactic sayan? That's the point, the last fight was consistent with the rest of the game, no effing cliffhangers and unfinished stories, the tale of Drake was told. They could actually continue their story from there or tell another of Drakes treasure hunting adventures. It's not science to understand this, it's really not that difficult.

[silversparrow]

As for uncharted freezing, never happened to me, not once, but then again, no game has ever frozen on my PS3.

I encountered one freeze in Uncharted. It was at the part where you are jet skiing upstream and avoiding all those explosive barrels.

Never happened again though.

[Fivespot]

Uncharted is a beautiful game but I noticed screen tearing frequently especially when adjusting the camera. Also noticed some draw in but that was much less frequent.

The game never froze on me however.

[Mochan]

And they do a great job of staying alive, not crossing in your path. That's the one thing about COD4, your teammates couldn't die, I think they just decided to do that because their AI programming was so horrid, they wouldn't have survived or you would have been reviving them every 10 seconds. Anyway, that's not good AI.

I guess with your very own words the AI in Gears is not good AI, because I have to revive them every 10 seconds. They also keep running into my line of fire (seems Epic anticipated them doing this so much they even included a ton of voice overs for Marcus whenever he shoots a teammate in the back) and they do a lousy job of moving for cover when flanked and when the Locust come in close enough to kiss them.

The first time I did it, I got blasted in the back of the head! The rest of my team didn't even shoot the damn guy!

Seems like the problem in COD4 isn't the friendly AI, it's your AI. Whoever programmed you must be a Noob TMG, if you keep running in the line of fire of your companions. You heard it here everyone. By TMG's own admission, his AI sucks.

[slade]

I wasn't the only one to have Uncharted freeze on them. Several people at GAF had this happen too. For me, it happened after nearly four hours of play. The only other game that froze on my PS3 like that was God of War 2. Other then that, I've marathoned R&C, Heavenly Sword, Genji 2 and just last week Ninja Gaiden Sigma. None of those games froze on me.

And screen tearing is quite prominent in Uncharted. It was better in the demo but the actual retail version has several areas where just a simple movement of the camera causes tearing.

[Fivespot]

And screen tearing is quite prominent in Uncharted. It was better in the demo but the actual retail version has several areas where just a simple movement of the camera causes tearing.

I thought so - I'm not alone. TLW must have one of the later model PS3's with the screen tearing problems eliminated. Or maybe he doesn't know what screen tearing is. Lastly it could be that he's never played the game and is spewing info he read/heard somewhere else.

You make the call.

[silversparrow]

Here's what Naughty Dog's Evan Wells had to say about screen tearing in Uncharted:

Screen tearing is something that occurs when your frame rate dips below 30Hz. When you drop frame rate you have a choice to either drop all the way to 20Hz, or allow the screen to tear and only have the frame rate drop to 28 or 29Hz. We felt that with the frequency that it occurs, that the latter choice had a smaller impact on most player’s experiences. In fact, the vast majority of people don’t even notice it. Now ideally, our frame rate would never drop below 30Hz, but with the amount of stuff we’re doing every frame in Uncharted, inevitably it will happen occasionally. However, it’s definitely something we will be able to improve on in future games as we make optimizations to our engine.
Source (http://threespeech.com/blog/?p=767)

[Jaa Phaanom]

I encountered one freeze in Uncharted. It was at the part where you are jet skiing upstream and avoiding all those explosive barrels.

Never happened again though.

Same here, happened to me a couple of time there, but after Assassin's Creed it was really a big deal. Also, there were a few points in the game where if I adjust the camera, a section of the screen turns completely blue, like nothing is there. I assume this is the screen tearing?

[Mochan]

No Jaa, that's not screen tearing. Tearing is when say you swivel your view from right to left quickly, and as you do so the upper part moves slower than the lower part, resulting in a tear. That's not the exact definition of tearing but that describes what it looks like when it happens.

This especially tends to happen on PCs where vsync isn't always enabled, and where the uneven architecture of the PCs over the game's optimizations (or lack of optimzation) typically results in you tend playing most of the game at very high framerates, but when something happens and the framerate dips to way below what it usually is, the tear occurs. On modern consoles it's usually not so apparent because console devs work with specific hardware and know exactly how much power they have at their disposal, so they can lock the framerate (usually to 30 or 60).

[slade]

Same here, happened to me a couple of time there, but after Assassin's Creed it was really a big deal. Also, there were a few points in the game where if I adjust the camera, a section of the screen turns completely blue, like nothing is there. I assume this is the screen tearing?

Sounds like a problem with your PS3.

[T.Tashi]

Gonna jump around a bit here.

In The Thing, team members had enough sense to take a knee when on the front line. So I didn't have to worry about shooting them in the back. Similarly, if you chose to lead the charge you had to be aware of the fire coming from behind you and duck down when firing. And no matter how far behind I left a squad member I never had to go get him to find him doing the Mario running thing. He caught up eventually. The Thing won a science award for its AI so it's interesting that a top rated squad based game from 2007 can't match the AI of a last-gen game from 2002. A lot of people complained about the AI in The Thing but like Mochan, I'd have to attribute that to operator error.:p

No freezes after 11+ hours with Uncharted and I was too engrossed in the story and gameplay to notice any tearing I suppose. It certainly didn't jump out at me. I would turn off that information ticker Sony added to the XMB. When I turned that thing off, the freezing issue with Assassin's Creed went away, even before the firmware update. I'd also turn off the media servers if you're not using them.

I almost never bothered with hand to hand in Uncharted and I watched a friend play and he used it almost exclusively. He'd take a couple shots run out, smack the guy around and take cover again. He even unlocked some medals for it and it was a whole different style of play. So yeah I gained a new level of respect for the melee system though I don't care to play that way.

The only game so far to give me show stopping problems was Conan.

[Jaa Phaanom]

Sounds like a problem with your PS3.

How can it be a problem with my PS3? I've attached a picture of the problem I mentioned. I should have said grey instead of blue. Where you can see the sky is where a big rock and some trees are supposed to be. And the grey should be the ground. It's in the second level right after you walk past the water fall. If you're walking along slowly and look back at Drake you'll see this happen (I probably only noticed this problem because I was busy trying to look at his amazing facial animations)

Regarding the freezing, I meant to say it wasn't a big problem after playing Assassin's Creed (and even Mass Effect, which has froze on me a few times).

[slade]

Your first attachment doesn't work and for the second, I never had that happen but it could be because I wasn't looking for it. The reason I said it could have been your PS3 was because when you described the problem it seemed like something was wrong with the graphics card in the PS3. Artifacting like you described happens right before the 360's GPU gets fried leading to the RROD.

[Jaa Phaanom]

Well, it's not really a problem though because it only shows up for a split second. Based on what Mochan described, I did notice some screen tearing, but it was pretty minimal. Overall, I still believe Uncharted is the most technically impressive next gen game so far.

[Glockstar]

No Jaa, that's not screen tearing. Tearing is when say you swivel your view from right to left quickly, and as you do so the upper part moves slower than the lower part, resulting in a tear. That's not the exact definition of tearing but that describes what it looks like when it happens.

Aha. I know you weren't talking to me, but thank you.


-


In The Thing, team members had enough sense to take a knee when on the front line. So I didn't have to worry about shooting them in the back. Similarly, if you chose to lead the charge you had to be aware of the fire coming from behind you and duck down when firing. And no matter how far behind I left a squad member I never had to go get him to find him doing the Mario running thing. He caught up eventually. The Thing won a science award for its AI so it's interesting that a top rated squad based game from 2007 can't match the AI of a last-gen game from 2002. A lot of people complained about the AI in The Thing but like Mochan, I'd have to attribute that to operator error.

[*Raises hand*] Yeah, that'd be me. I thought the AI was terrible. Terrible. It was why I quite playing it.

I mean, you said it yourself, 'you had to duck down to keep from getting shot by your own guys'. And if you don't then that's "operator error"?(!) Wtf? Seriously tho', how is that good AI? There's nothing intelligent about that.

[T.Tashi]

Aha. I know you weren't talking to me, but thank you.


-




[*Raises hand*] Yeah, that'd be me. I thought the AI was terrible. Terrible. It was why I quite playing it.

I mean, you said it yourself, 'you had to duck down to keep from getting shot by your own guys'. And if you don't then that's "operator error"?(!) Wtf? Seriously tho', how is that good AI? There's nothing intelligent about that.

LOL , that's right I remember now.

If you got in their way you might get hit initially but they did change their position to shoot around you. But I thought it was tactically logical to get out the line of fire. Whenever I was firing from the rear position, those guys got out the way, and the guy with the flamethrower always took the point. That's not a weapon you use from the back. I am biased tho The Thing is one my favorite movies, so I really liked the game. I played through it a couple times.

[thelastword]

I wasn't the only one to have Uncharted freeze on them. Several people at GAF had this happen too. For me, it happened after nearly four hours of play. The only other game that froze on my PS3 like that was God of War 2. Other then that, I've marathoned R&C, Heavenly Sword, Genji 2 and just last week Ninja Gaiden Sigma. None of those games froze on me.

And screen tearing is quite prominent in Uncharted. It was better in the demo but the actual retail version has several areas where just a simple movement of the camera causes tearing.Never had a game freeze, but it's obvious that people's experiences can be different.

As for the screen tearing, I only saw it once and it was slight, and I don't think I'm the only one here or even on GAF who hardly saw tearing, or even any at all, as is the case with Tashi. I was rotating the camera furiously when it happened. I think Hsword was more of a culprit there and of course Assasins Creed, though the patch have alienated most of the tearing there.

And for the record, I don't have my news tab enabled, but I do have dlna servers enabled, I've always had them on.

[ThaMaskedGamer]

I finished the game last night, and i'm going to go back and do the alternate ending tonight. Let me address some of the negative issues from the reviews:

Story, the reviews are right, the story is indeed full of holes that are never really explained. I thought toward the end things would all come together but they don't. But the story here is STILL better than 90% of games out there, and most shooters don't even give you half the story present here. If it were a novel or a movie, i'd be upset, maybe if I were a professional reviewer, i'd be upset, but the lack of details don't change the fact it is a good story. And it doesn't affect gameplay one bit whether I knew exactly the origins of everything or not. It doesn't detract from the gameplay.

AI, I think I see where many of the complaint's come from. The action get's really intense when the game switches to urban and jungle warfare setting. The game gives you like 20 additional soldiers to command at times. You have four main characters, each one is assigned four more guys that show-up on the command screen as dots under each of the main characters. When one dies, there is one less dot under that guy, so u know if that team is getting slaughtered. You cannot revive these additional troops, and they are pretty much useless. They just follow the main guy. They don't take cover well, and they don't really kill anyone, they just are cannon-fodder. This was probably a little too ambitious, but I actually applaud the effort. As long as you realize you are not going to be able to keep these extra guys alive, it won't be a problem. Your main squad members though, must be revived within a short period of time though. But if you think the additional troops are important or you can keep them alive, then you are going to be frustrated. I just commanded my main four guys as if they didn't have these other four troops present. And that worked fine, when I reached El Capitulo about 7 of them still alive, so I thought it worked out pretty well. At that point, u go back to your main four guys.

Also, when u get to Havanna, u can't put your guys out in the open. They will get killed and they run around, because they know they are exposed! I put one of my teams on the second floor of a building, they automatically manned the MG that was up there. I put another team under a building at ground level, then there was no more cover for the other two teams, so I left them waaaaaaay in the back, away from this HiND Chopper. When we advanced and took more ground, I moved the other two teams into battle. If U make sure all four teams are under cover, and then fight, it will be simple. If you fight without a plan, your guys will get slaughtered, and if they are in the open, they will run back and forth. What happens is they try and run to cover, but then they run back to you or back to where u had them exposed. So it seems like they are running around like fools. They are actually just doing what you told them.

Graphics, graphically the game is a real mixed back. Mainly because of the scope of the game, tons of enemies, at times a lot of vehicles, and really large maps packed with a lot of moving parts, I guess they felt had to make sacrifices.

The good part, action, gameplay, dialogue, intensity! This is a fun fun game. It has some very convincing gunplay. It does a great job to me of really making u feel like a ragtag group of bank-robbers early on, and later on you really feel like a group of mercs in the middle of some third world military coup. All the sets were really convincing, be it the prison, the streets of Tokyo, or Havanna. The firefights are really satisfying, being under cover and watch chunks of marble break off of columns, edges of building get blown off, and the weapons are excellent. they do a good job of changing the accuracy of weapons, an M249 can't hit sh*t accurately but Car-4 or M-16 is highly accurate, obvious stuff, but it is done really well. The movements are fluid and the cover mechanic is unfairly abused. It works and it works well. It has to, because in each firefight you are under cover 90% of the time. If u don't understand why taking cover is important, or if u just don't like the concept, this is not the game for you. But if u like feeling the heat the enemy unloading a clip at you while undercover, then popping out with an accurate shot to his head, this is the game for you.

The action is intense, and there really aren't a lot of boring levels. Each level is methodic intensity, there is no running and gunning out in the open, and later on there is a lot of squad tactics. If you don't get use to using your team, you will not enjoy the game. And if you use them right, they will perform very well. For example you have four guys in this game, compared to one in Halo3 and mainly one in Gears, the Arbiter was always down in Halo3, and you always had to save Dominic in Gears. With four guys here, the whole game, if I had to revive my guys 10 times i'd be surprised.

I also appreciated the variety of the levels in this game. First of all there are no boring corridors, no backtracking etc. And this game does a good job of switching between indoor and outdoor settings. The vehicle action is very poor though, except for the last vehicle mission, its on rails and very very similar to the jeep vehicle sequence in Uncharted.

I can't say that the reviews are dead wrong on this game, a lot of the critiques they come up with are true, but you get the feeling that the game is a mess. It isn't. I'd say it fairly falls in the 75-82% range. If the graphics were good, this game would be 85-93 easily.

So yeah it falls short of all the blockbusters this year. But in terms of sheer fun, this game beats a lot of them. It will be interesting to see how Army of Two turns out, because between the two games, I thought Army of Two looked better. Graphically it might, but i'd be surprised if Army of Two ends up playing better. In the end I think a lot of reviewers were unfair to this game, focusing on holes in the plot, the fact they used the F-bomb, or unfairly blasting the AI, when other games they praise have worse AI, or no AI, or no controllable squads, that to me is clearly unfair. Also there is way more gameplay here than in Uncharted and COD4, two celebrated but shallow games. Between the three I enjoyed Uncharted and K&L, but K&L is the only one I would have been happy with as a purchase, because the game is a little bit longer than Uncharted. It has REPLAY value which Uncharted doesn't have, I could replay this game a few more times that is how much most of the maps are, plus it has a novel online component and co-op mode, something Uncharted doesn't have. They say the online mode suffers the same flaws as single player, in that case I know it would be a lot of fun. Anyway, I guess variety is the spice of life. This will go down as my Obi-wan of this generation. Just like last gen people celebrated shallow games like Silent Hill, Onimusha and MGS2, and I found those games way overrated, not much has changed this gen.