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Cuddly Knife
12-11-2007, 07:55 AM
Trippy that we've been discussing this very topic. More trippy if you remember how we were talking our all-time fifty and they whip out their top 100. But, here you go:

There was a time not so long ago when high scores weren't saved; camera control in platform games was unheard of; characters traveled via typed keyboard commands; and narrative in videogames was all but nonexistent.

Things have changed - a lot. But they didn't change overnight. Our favorite videogames today have extensive family trees, and we've cracked open the dusty tomes of history to find out which landmark titles have had the most profound influence on modern gaming.

Which titles have had the most impact on the direction of videogame design and development since the industry came into its own in the 1970s? We pulled together a group of top IGN editors to debate and answer that very question. It wasn't easy, and it wasn't always pretty, but we've narrowed down our picks to 10 and listed them here in chronological order.

Space Invaders
Platform: Arcade
Developer: Taito
Publisher: Taito
Year Released: 1978

Space Invaders obviously wasn't the first videogame to become a phenomenon -- Pong had arrived six years earlier. But while video ping-pong was extremely popular, it didn't spawn its own genre of gaming or inspire future designers to the extent that Space Invaders did. Taito's alien invasion simulator established precedents that have become standard features in gaming and created the shoot-em-up (or schmup) genre.

It may be hard to believe, but games haven't always saved our high scores. Space Invaders was the first to do so (although it didn't go so far as to let us enter our initials). When gamers dropped their quarters into Taito's machine in 1978, it was the first time they found their spacecraft situated at the bottom of the screen and were tasked with shooting down endless swarms of enemies attacking from the top. Space Invaders' trail of influence can be followed to other shooters like Galaga and Centipede, and even modern day classics like Ikaruga.

The venerable Shigeru Miyamoto told Time magazine this year that Space Invaders is the one game that revolutionized the industry. "Before I saw it, I was never particularly interested in video games and certainly never thought I would make video games," he said.

Even Mario and Zelda owe a debt to Space Invaders.

Fun fact: Space Invaders was so popular in Japan it caused a shortage of the 100 yen coin.

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Ultima
Platform: Apple II
Developer: Richard Garriott
Publisher: California Pacific Computer Co.
Year released: 1980

When the Dungeons & Dragons craze swept America in the 1980s, parents were so terrified that they bought their kids personal computers to distract them from the clearly Satanic practice of rolling dice and acting like elves. Fortunately, Richard Garriott was one step ahead of them.

A D&D fan and self-taught BASIC programmer, Garriott merged his love of coding and tabletop role-playing into an Apple II computer game called Akalabeth: World of Doom in 1979. But it was Akalabeth's immediate successor, Ultima, that set the stage for future computer RPGs.

Like Akalabeth, Ultima (later known as Ultima I: The First Age of Darkness) used both top-down and first-person perspectives, and it introduced D&D-like character creation, leveling and dungeon crawling. If you're hunting for gems, battling evil wizards and buying items in shops today, it's largely because of Ultima (and if you're doing the above in an MMO, thank Ultima's networked cousin Ultima Online).

Sure, people had attempted to replicate D&D on computers before, but Ultima was the genre's first breakout PC hit, and the series influenced countless other RPGs – from the Elder Scrolls series to Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest.

Fun Fact: Garriott's early computer game designs were so rooted in Dungeons & Dragons that Akalabeth's working title was D&D28b before borrowing a more befitting name from Tolkien's Silmarillion.

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Karate Champ
Platform: Arcade
Developer: Technos
Publisher: Data East
Year Released: 1984

Before Street Fighter was declared the ruler of fighting games, it spent some time training with Karate Champ. Technos' martial arts cabinet established and popularized the one-on-one fighting game with a side perspective.

While not the first game to utilize this scenario, it was the first to become popular and likely the first to be seen in the U.S. The two combatants sport white and red gis -- the same worn by Street Fighter's Ryu and Ken.

Karate Champ included bonus rounds in between matches where players had to dodge flying objects, break boards with their fists, and knock out charging bulls (the usual karate stuff). The bonus round is another feature that would go on to be used in Street Fighter.

Other games that call Karate Champ sensei include Konami's Yie Ar Kung-Fu and Mortal Kombat. The fighting game genre peaked in the 90s but remains popular today.

Fun fact: Karate Champ spawned a direct sequel named Karate Champ - Player vs. Player. In Japan, this sequel was called Way of Karate Competition - Beautiful Young Girl Chapter.

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Tetris
Platform: all of them
Developer: Alexey Pajitnov
Publisher: Nintendo, etc.
Year released: programmed in 1985, released on Game Boy in 1989

In 1985 the Cold War had game developers in Russia and the U.S. working feverishly to one-up each other. While America had launched the videogame industry in the early 70s, one man deep in Moscow's Dorodnicyn Computing Centre was programming a little game called Tetris that would pwn the world.

While videogames surged in popularity during the 80s, they were still regarded as fancy "toys" for the younger generation. Tetris showed adults that there were high-minded challenges to be found in videogames just as in Solitaire or crossword puzzles.

Nintendo fans balked when they learned the Game Boy wouldn't be packing a Mario title, instead opting to include Pajitnov's underground sensation. It turned out to be a brilliant decision on Nintendo's part, as the unusual (for the time) game drew the attention of non-traditional players and helped make the Game Boy one of the most successful platforms ever.

It also created the puzzle game genre -- at least by modern standards. Many of the benchmarks in puzzle gaming were built from Tetris' foundation: Puyo Puyo, Dr. Mario, Puzzle Bobble/Bust-a-Move, Lumines… The concept of managing an endless and ever-increasing amount of shapes on a fixed screen was started by Tetris.

"Casual gaming" is a popular buzz term these days, but it's not a new concept. The industry could have seen 20 years ago with Tetris that people in general like to play good games -- whether they're "video" or not.

Fun fact: On the Game Boy version of Tetris, the score stops at 999999 but the game will allow the player to continue.

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Super Mario Bros.
Platform: NES
Developer: Nintendo
Publisher: Nintendo
Year released: 1985

Shigeru Miyamoto essentially invented platform-style gaming when he created Donkey Kong and Mario Bros. for arcades in the early1980s. By the time Nintendo needed him to fashion a hit for its fledgling Famicom home console (later dubbed the Nintendo Entertainment System), Miyamoto was ready to take everything he'd learned making arcade games and smash it all into little bits.

Out of the rubble came Super Mario Bros., a whimsical side-scroller whose imaginative characters, tight controls, catchy music and linear yet exploratory feel set a new videogame standard for years to come.

The story was thin (save a princess from a spiky turtle), but at least it was there, and the ability to "warp" between levels and disappear down pipes was a revolutionary change from the ultralinear (or more often completely fixed-screen) nature of previous games.

We'd love to list all the games influenced by SMB, but we'd also love to list all the movies influenced by Citizen Kane. Miyamoto's masterpiece paved the way for the future of videogames, and its influence stands today.

Fun Fact: The princess is in another castle.

Wolfenstein 3D
Platform: PC
Developer: id Software
Publisher: Apogee
Year released: 1992

Prior to 1992, fledgling id Software had made games about an eight-year old space traveler (Commander Keen) and a hovering tank (Hovertank 3D). The latter game's raycast design, first-person perspective and loving embrace of violent conflict paved the way for id's groundbreaking PC hit Wolfenstein 3D.

With Wolf 3D, PC gamers were introduced to a Nazi-hunting WWII storyline, surfaces with actual textures, a first-person gun-grasping hand, switchable weapons, ammunition counts and a host of other innovations that would become standard FPS fare in the years to come.

Although its younger siblings Doom and Quake got the most ink during PC gaming's growth spurt in the 1990s, neither would have existed without Wolfenstein 3D. Half-Life and Duke Nukem can trace their ancestry directly to Wolf 3D, and countless others - from Medal of Honor to BioShock - are cut from its gun-crazy cloth.

Wolfenstein 3D was also instrumental in popularizing the shareware game distribution model, a practice that remained common - especially for first-person shooters - for years to come.

Fun fact: Wolfenstein 3D's music is a version of the German hymn "Horst Wessel Lied (Horst Wessel's song), the Nazi party's official anthem.

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Dune II: The Building of a Dynasty
Platform: PC
Developer: Westwood Studios
Publisher: Virgin Interactive
Year released: 1992

When Dune II hit the stage in 1992, everything changed in the world of PC strategy gaming. With Dune II, Westwood studios popularized the real-time strategy subgenre and laid the groundwork for a laundry list of beloved successors, from Warcraft II and Command & Conquer to Total Annihilation.

Herzog Zwei, The Ancient Art of War and a handful of other strategy games had already introduced real-time elements, but Dune II demanded split-second decision-making, true strategic thinking, and a focus not only on unit production and attacking but also on resource gathering and structure building.

And the simple innovation of allowing players to use the mouse to select and operate individual units and structures was enough to make Westwood's little licensed game a breakout hit.

Dune II's deep technology trees, world map, framed interface and fog-of-war feature set a gold standard for future RTS games, most of which still contain aspects of the above to this day.

Fun Fact: Fear is the mind-killer.

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Super Mario 64
Platform: Nintendo 64
Developer: Nintendo
Publisher: Nintendo
Year released: 1996

In 1996, videogames were all standing around the pool of 3D gaming, not sure whether or not the water was too cold to dive into. There was a general sense that it would feel great once you got used to it, but no one wanted to be the first and possibly make an ass of themselves. A few intrepid mascots, such as the too-extreme-for-you Bubsy, had already made the plunge but landed in a painful and messy belly flop.

Then along came Mario, pushing everyone aside and landing an enormous cannonball that drenched all the other games and convinced everyone it was safe to get their feet wet.

Over a decade later, Super Mario 64 still hasn't been topped in the realm of 3D platforming. It did for the genre what Super Mario Bros. did for 2D platforming, making it the only franchise to appear on this list twice. In particular, Mario 64 established precedents for analog control of our characters and a dynamic, in-game camera system.

The long line of games following in Mario 64's footsteps include Banjo Kazooie, Ratchet & Clank, and Psychonauts.

Fun fact: Yoshi can be found on top of the Princess' castle. Normally he can only be accessed after beating the game, but some determined gamers have been able to do it right off the bat.

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Half-Life
Platform: PC
Developer: Valve
Publisher: Sierra
Year released: 1998

When Valve Software's Half-Life burst onto the scene in 1998, the entire videogame industry took immediate notice. Gone were the cutscenes, traditional levels and often thin storylines of the first-person shooters that preceded it.

In their place, players found an instantly immersive story, scripted in-game events, episodic chapters, and a cohesive approach that still sets the tone for many first-person games today.

Wandering around the Black Mesa research facility, gamers felt like they were in a real place, complete with believable characters and dynamic enemies driven by cutting-edge artificial intelligence. Half-Life's influence on gaming can't be overstated, and countless modern shooters have emulated its narrative approach to game design.

By licensing its Half-Life game engine for free, Valve also empowered and inspired individual developers to create their own versions of the game, some of which (like Counter-Strike) became enormously popular in their own right. Valve didn't invent PC game modding, but as with their first single-player venture, they revolutionized the field.

Fun Fact: In Valve's original designs, Half-Life's protagonist wore a green outfit, had a full beard and lacked Gordon Freeman's trademark black glasses. He's now affectionately known at Valve as "Ivan the Space Biker."

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Grand Theft Auto III
Platform: PlayStation 2, PC, Xbox
Developer: DMA Design
Publisher: Rockstar
Year released: 2001

Not many games can claim to have spawned entire genres, buzzwords, and cultural phenomena. Grand Theft Auto III threw gamers into the sandbox and gave them the keys to a living city.

Never before had we felt so much freedom in a game world. We could work our way through the non-linear story -- or not. The game offered an unprecedented amount of side-missions, mini-games, and free play opportunities.

Many other "sandbox" games followed in the wake of GTAIII: Saint's Row, Crackdown, True Crime, and Scarface, to name just a few. The driving aspects led to titles like The Getaway series and The Simpson's Hit and Run. The term "GTA clone" is commonly used to describe the many titles that copy GTAIII's open-ended gameplay and criminal scenario.

Fun fact: Leading up to the release of GTAIII, an online version of the fictional Liberty Tree newspaper reported on the current events of Liberty City.

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Runners-up:

As with any list of this sort, there were many deserving games that had to be left out. After hours of arguing, biting, and hair pulling, it was determined that these games, while influential, did not have the same impact as the preceding ten.

Prince of Persia
Dragon Warrior
Alone in the Dark
SimCity
Wizardry
Doom
Pong

Mochan
12-11-2007, 09:45 AM
See? The Top 100 they made was their actual personal favorites sort of deal. This is their Influential list. All I can say is I can't believe the lot of them actually still enjoy Super Mario Bros more than today's games. Funny I bet all of them have NESes tucked under their 60" HDTVs at home.



It also created the puzzle game genre -- at least by modern standards. Many of the benchmarks in puzzle gaming were built from Tetris' foundation: Puyo Puyo, Dr. Mario, Puzzle Bobble/Bust-a-Move, Lumines… The concept of managing an endless and ever-increasing amount of shapes on a fixed screen was started by Tetris.

By the way, can someone enlighten me how Bust-a-Move is a puzzle game?!


When Valve Software's Half-Life burst onto the scene in 1998, the entire videogame industry took immediate notice. Gone were the cutscenes, traditional levels and often thin storylines of the first-person shooters that preceded it.

I still get a huge laugh whenver I read this considering how Half Life's story was also paper-thin, and FPS preceding it like Blood and Cybermage actually had better storylines. Shadow Caster and System Shock *also* didn't have traditional levels and had better stories as well.

Never before had we felt so much freedom in a game world. We could work our way through the non-linear story -- or not.

Hello Elder Scrolls. IGN doesn't get out much do they? I don't contest GTA3 being hugely influential but please don't give credit where it's not due.


IGN's list epically fails for not having other landmark titles in it like Ultima Underworld a 3D RPG that actually predated Wolf 3D, how about Civilization that basically created the 4x genre? No love for the racer genre either, dunno which game came out first for this Knight Rider? Or the Sim genre (not Sim City -- I mean simulation like flight sim or stuff like that) -- some of these genres are a lot stronger today than some of the dying genres they are focusing on like the schmup genre.

Heck, they failed to even mention them in the runner up list! Anyway funny they were drawing the same Citizen Kane comparisons we were doing here.

Cuddly Knife
12-11-2007, 10:23 AM
See? The Top 100 they made was their actual personal favorites sort of deal. This is their Influential list. All I can say is I can't believe the lot of them actually still enjoy Super Mario Bros more than today's games. Funny I bet all of them have NESes tucked under their 60" HDTVs at home. Dude, I enjoy SMB more than many of todays games. What's wrong with that? I'm sure you have some oldies that you love more than currents that you enjoy. If not, then give me all of your old games.





By the way, can someone enlighten me how Bust-a-Move is a puzzle game?! " You control a dinosaur sitting at the bottom of the screen armed with a bubble gun. At the top of the screen are more bubbles, and your goal is to pop all the bubbles you see in order to advance to the next stage. Each time you fire your gun, a different colored bubble shoots out; what you want to do is match it with two bubbles of the same color. When the three bubbles are joined, they pop and disappear. But while you're lining up your shot, new bubbles appear and if the screen fills up, the game is over."

Sounds like a variation of Tetris. Great game. I had it on my PSP emu.



I still get a huge laugh whenver I read this considering how Half Life's story was also paper-thin, and FPS preceding it like Blood and Cybermage actually had better storylines. Shadow Caster and System Shock *also* didn't have traditional levels and had better stories as well.
I never did play past what the demo allowed, but IMO, HL2 had a paper-thin story as well. Strange how poeple knocked Gears, but praised HL2. Dumb.
______________

I agree with them how they say GTA3 is more influential than your ES. Really, how much variety in the gameplay does Elder Scrolls have? Think about it, compare it to GTA3, then come back to me. It's not just sandbox in how you are able to free-roam, it's all things involved in the game that makes GTA3 more sandbox.

Gadfly2317
12-11-2007, 10:48 AM
Heck, they failed to even mention them in the runner up list! Anyway funny they were drawing the same Citizen Kane comparisons we were doing here..

A tight, intelligent little discussion board like VGR is the perfect place for a gaming journalist to give his ideas a test run.

Funny, also, I was thinking if SMB is "Citizen Kane," then Tetris is Tarkovsky's "Andrei Rublev."

Slashes-With-Claws
12-11-2007, 12:01 PM
Super Mario 64 leading the way in 3D? I do not think so. They ever have a PSX?

Mochan is right about freedom in gameplay; Daggerfall came out in 1996 and it is still one of the most free and open games ever.

And how can they say that SimCity did not have a lot of impact. It had more than Mario 64. Heck, SimCity defined the sandbox world management game.

ilnadmy
12-11-2007, 12:07 PM
So does this mean we here at VGR can read the future?

T.Tashi
12-11-2007, 12:18 PM
So does this mean we here at VGR can read the future?

Or someone at IGN is reading VGR. I'm sure discussions like ours took place on other forums and IGN may have come up with it on their own but, yeah, big coincidence.

joquito
12-11-2007, 01:10 PM
I personally liked the list. I probably would have chosen Prince of Persia or SimCity over SMB 64. I also thought Metroid was much cooler and influential than SMB. Karate champ was the best on the list, giving how deserving it is and how easily it could have been overlooked.

Mochan
12-11-2007, 01:29 PM
Dude, I enjoy SMB more than many of todays games. What's wrong with that? I'm sure you have some oldies that you love more than currents that you enjoy. If not, then give me all of your old games.

I can understand enjoying it more than some, or even many, of today's games. And there is certianly nothing wrong with that. But naming it their #1 means they enjoy it over ALL of today's games -- and I find that just a *wee* bit hard to swallow.

There is no game on the NES today that I could honestly say I prefer more than the best games I am playing today.

Tell you what, if SMB and the old games are that important to you, I'll give you all my old games, then you give me all your nextgen consoles and all your next gen games. Deal?

You control a dinosaur sitting at the bottom of the screen armed with a bubble gun. At the top of the screen are more bubbles,

Ah, this is the Bust-A-Move I know:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZfpIbqw8f0

I guess it's a matter of whether you play the American or Japanese version.



I never did play past what the demo allowed, but IMO, HL2 had a paper-thin story as well. Strange how poeple knocked Gears, but praised HL2. Dumb.

For some reason, gamers seem to have this strange notion in their head that just because you have a game with a ton of scientists yakking their mouths off uncontrollably about gibberish at the start of the game, the game has a super deep complex story worth of a Pulitzer. Because that's certainly all that Half Life's story was, that and the usual Doom/Quake "scientific experiment opens up a portal to another dimension and beasties come out" schtick. How people ever thought this game had the best story ever, I will never understand. HL2 was't really much better although it at least tried to create this dystopian society setting, but I haven't finished the game so I can't comment on the rest of it. All I can say is after the lengthy yakking at the start of the game, what you get for a long, long time is some long endless stretches of marshy wasteland.



I agree with them how they say GTA3 is more influential than your ES. Really, how much variety in the gameplay does Elder Scrolls have? Think about it,

First off, I made it quite clear that I agree GTA3 is more influential than Elder Scrolls -- simply because it sold a bucketload more and got played by a hell of a lot more people.

But if we're talking about sandbox GTA3 doesn't hold a candle to Daggerfall. Yeah, you could control remote control helicopters in GTA but did GTA have a robust stat system that let you build your character to play in different ways? You're missing out on the point of the Elder Scrolls games if you think TES is just about free-roaming. GTA3 doesn't let you "roleplay" any more than stealing a taxi to become a taxi driver, or steal an ambulance to be a emergency paramedic rushing people to the hospital.

You want to talk about the other things involved Daggerfall had them all too. Buy a house, buy a ship, buy a horse, buy a cart, mix potions, create spells, wear clother/armor/gear to customize your look, follow a career in different walks of life, do unlimited unique oddjobs over a landmass twice the size of Great Britain (as in real measurements) dotted with literally hundreds of cities, dungeons, and townlets, and what about the actual gameplay mechanics that let you be a robust fighter wielding any kind of weapon under the sun, skulk around and stab people in the back, roast them with a fireball, smooth talking merchant, or anything in between, or the freedom to fly, climb mountains, jump over city gates in a single bound, be a vampire or werewolf -- not to mention you had to build your character up to do these things with the robust character system rather than just insta-do it by hijacking a cab, ambulance, police car, etc.

You want to talk about variety in gameplay? How much does GTA have other than driving cars and whacking people? Nay if you want to talk free form open gameplay TES is leagues ahead of GTA.

***

And I have to agree with the lizard, Sim City deserves to be on that list, do you realize how many sandbox sim games came out as a result of Sim City? And how this is one of the most lucrative gaming genres known to man? *coughthesimscoughcough* Lack of MMORPG action there also has me boggled again the list seems to look a little too far back and is neglecting quite a few key genres, especially genres that are still alive and booming today like MMORPGs. Where is Diablo? Basically the forerunner of MMORPGs. At least they gave a slight nod to MMORPGs with the Ultima Online footnote, though how Ultima Online itself isn't there on the list whereas SMB64 could make the 2nd entry boggles me.

Gadfly2317
12-11-2007, 03:48 PM
The debate here seems to be one of console-gaming perspectives vs. PC gaming perspectives.

Mochan
12-11-2007, 06:02 PM
Before we go any further I would like to categorically state that IGN's Top 10 list is clearly not trying to be console only -- the fact that they included Ultima, Half Life, Dune 2 and Wolf 3D show that they are quite clearly taking this from a PC perspective as well as whatever other perspective they are using... thus the PC viewpoint is very relevant to this discussion.

In the Daggerfall GTA3 spat it doesn't even matter which perspective is used -- we can empirically state which came first and which did the sandbox concept first just by looking at the chronology: and it's quite clear that the things I am lobbying for came first -- Daggerfall came out before GTA3. It also did more things than GTA3 did, even though GTA3 ended up being more fun (debatably) and more popular.


Speaking of the console (or perhaps arcade) perspective, they're also missing out another very important game: DDR, which swept the nations back in the 90s, made tons of fat overweight gamers and casual folk alike thinner and slimmer, and gave birth to the rhythm genre which of course is alive and popular today in the form of Guitar Hero amidst a whole slew of other derivatives.

NEO-360
12-11-2007, 07:10 PM
The debate here seems to be one of console-gaming perspectives vs. PC gaming perspectives.

There were alot of games I thought would've been on that type of list that wasnt. I dont get their choices at all.:cool:

Cuddly Knife
12-11-2007, 10:03 PM
I'll give you the one on Dagger, Mochan, because you've played both GTA3 and Dagger, and I was mostly remembering what I was able to do in Oblivion, which wasn't much in the big scheme. It's a shame that it went backwards, when GTA moved up and included a crazy upgrade system in San Andreas. Also including the insane amounts of mini-games, mission variety, vehicle types, and landmass. Too bad that game wasn't the first in the series, then this conversation wouldn't have ever have happened.

And NEO, come on. WHy don't you poist some of them games, instead of filling your post space with with a brain fart.

ceevee
12-12-2007, 07:36 AM
Super Mario Bros.
Platform: NES
Developer: Nintendo
Publisher: Nintendo
Year released: 1985

Shigeru Miyamoto essentially invented platform-style gaming when he created Donkey Kong and Mario Bros. for arcades in the early1980s. By the time Nintendo needed him to fashion a hit for its fledgling Famicom home console (later dubbed the Nintendo Entertainment System), Miyamoto was ready to take everything he'd learned making arcade games and smash it all into little bits.

Out of the rubble came Super Mario Bros., a whimsical side-scroller whose imaginative characters, tight controls, catchy music and linear yet exploratory feel set a new videogame standard for years to come.

The story was thin (save a princess from a spiky turtle), but at least it was there, and the ability to "warp" between levels and disappear down pipes was a revolutionary change from the ultralinear (or more often completely fixed-screen) nature of previous games.

We'd love to list all the games influenced by SMB, but we'd also love to list all the movies influenced by Citizen Kane. Miyamoto's masterpiece paved the way for the future of videogames, and its influence stands today.

Fun Fact: The princess is in another castle.

baaaahahaahahahahahahhahahaaaa. IGN must've been (mis)reading our posts and then made this article. other than the superficial story, superficial 'changes' to gameplay, superficial 'exploratory feel' (i.e. jump as high as possible to reveal err.. a hidden map or shoot down a pipe to err.. reveal a hidden map) was truly revolutionary.. hmmm

yes Shigeru Miyamoto is a genius, and SMB was a decent product but to say, We'd love to list all the games influenced by SMB, is just unqualified bullsh!te. SMB was derivative and not genre defining by any stretch of the imagination. Megaman, Zelda, Castlevania, Star Fox, F-Zero were not descendants of SMB but all were from the same creative mind.

hypothetical question to all: would Super Mario Brothers have been successful if the main characters were Japanese dough-makers or electrician and not the Caucasian plumber that we know him as? the plumber helped save the stagnant console market 1985 in the US. but would that have been the case if Mario wasn't Mario?

the great console collapse really does tickle me pink, cos the very same era the PC-gaming arena in creative Europe were going through a renaissance or even an age of enlightenment. gaming wasn't just about jumping and solving simple puzzles, but about scope, freedom, expression and strategy. 3d space combat? trade? RPG? storytelling? simulation? management? Elite and Tau Ceti had it all.

you can stick your platformer-championed console (2d or otherwise) up where the 4th Dimension don't shine. coz I'd love to list all the games influenced by Elite, but you only need to go to your local gamestation or wherever

Mochan
12-12-2007, 09:17 AM
Oblivion and Morrowind were rather dumbed down versions of Daggerfall in terms of gameplay options and features. Oblivion itself is a dumbed-down version of Morrowind. I really don't understand it, it's like Bethesda's been dumbing down the games with each iteration.

You are right in saying the GTA series on the other hand has been getting better with each iteration. Although I prefer the New Wave 80's Miami Vice feel of Vice City, San Andreas gave us more content. I will admit the GTA series has more minigames than the TES series, but in the coregameplay the TES series definitely has the edge. Landmass wise Daggerfall is also bigger (even if there's a lot of randomized repetition going on) but San Andreas definitely felt bigger than Oblivion.

If San Andreas were the first GTA3 game, and the succeeding games improved on it, then I would indeed be partial to conceding to your point. GTA4 looks like it will improve on San Andreas big time, whereas TES5 will probably be even more dumbed down than Oblivion. In the long run you will probably prove correct, at the rate Bethesda is going.


yes Shigeru Miyamoto is a genius, and SMB was a decent product but to say, We'd love to list all the games influenced by SMB, is just unqualified bullsh!te. SMB was derivative and not genre defining by any stretch of the imagination.

Indeed, SMB is basically an extension of existing platformers at the time, the one that comes to mind the most is the Montezuma game. I will admit that it improved on the genre up to that point (and arguably SMB3 perfected it) but it's not even comparable to what games like Elite achieved.

And in terms of influence Elite's direct line of descendants include games like Privateer, X The Threat series, Freelancer, Strike Commander, well basically flight sims in general to a point, but it wouldn't be a stretch to say that GTA itself inherited the spirit of freedom Elite created. I don't know for sure whether Rockstar actually too any inspiration from Elite or if any of them played it, but you can clearly see the same gameplay mechanics and ideas going on there, which is something you can't say for, say, Super Mario Brothers and Call of Duty.